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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield

Accused Rapist Arrested/Teen Girl Who Talked Boyfriend Into Suicide Sentenced; Death Raises Questions; Mom Murder Mystery; The Hunt With John Walsh. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired August 03, 2017 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a tragedy for two families.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He had such a bright future.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For the involuntary manslaughter of Conrad Roy III, two-and-a-half years in the Bristol County House of Correction.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We just fundamentally disagree that a law was broken.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m satisfied that she was mindful of the actions for which she now stands convicted.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A shock and mystery in Mississippi in a very disturbing case. A mail carrier finds a woman hanging from a mailbox just over three

feet high by shoestrings tied into a noose.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Blunt force trauma to her neck and to her head.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She did not deserve this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Long (ph) killed his wife inside their home and placed her fully clothed body in their back yard swimming pool.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just miss her so much!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOEY JACKSON, GUEST HOST: A pleasant good evening, everyone. I`m Joey Jackson, in tonight for Ashleigh Banfield.

And we are following breaking news in the five-year search for a fugitive on "The Hunt With John Walsh" on HLN. That was on the Sunday. I watched.

We just learned that Dino Curcio, an alleged rapist who authorities say forced his 17-year-old victim to marry him, has been caught in Deer Park,

Illinois, near Chicago.

And the U.S. Marshals Service says that more than a dozen tips that were called in right after the show aired on Sunday on HLN were to do with his

capture. Now Curcio is accused of psychologically imprisoning a daughter of a former girlfriend for seven years. I want to play a clip for you to

show you how it happened.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I never loved him, but over the next two years, I started to bond with him. And I knew that this was not a normal bonding.

I didn`t want to be with him, but it felt like I had to go along with his demands.

JOHN WALSH, HOST, "THE HUNT": This is Stockholm syndrome. Stockholm syndrome bends your thinking. It bends your ability to get away. It bends

you into submission and bends you into compliance to stay alive.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It felt like he was unraveling. He called himself the last voice of the church age, and he told me that he was a prophet of

God. One time, he made me watch videos of executions from war conflicts. He told me, That`s what I`ll do to you if you leave.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: I want to bring in Tim Hughes. He`s the assistant chief deputy with the U.S. Marshals Service. Deputy Hughes, how was Dino Curcio

captured? And congratulations. and how long until he`s actually sent to Chicago -- or excuse me, to Colorado, to face the charges? First things

first.

ASST. CHIEF DEPUTY TIM HUGHES, U.S. MARSHALS SERVICE (via telephone): First, we want to thank "The Hunt" very much for his capture. Boulder

Police Department have put together an excellent case on just a sick individual. And 2014, they came to us and asked for our assistance in

trying to find him when they knew he had left the area, and we`d been searching for him ever since. And through some tips that came in on "The

Hunt," we were able to pinpoint down where he was, and our Great Lakes Fugitive Task Force went and got him today.

JACKSON: That`s amazing. So what kind of tips were they that led you to right where he was, such that we see him in custody?

HUGHES: They were very pinpoint accurate by people who really cared that this sort of individual was off the streets and not near their families.

It was just excellent community service that someone performed.

JACKSON: That`s dynamite. We always say if you see something, say something. They apparently saw "The Hunt," and they did, as I watched it,

fascinating story. So everyone is wondering how long before he`s actually brought to justice, brought back to Colorado, and what happens then?

HUGHES: Well, he`s brought to justice now. He`s in jail. What`s going to happen now, he`ll make an appearance before a judge there in the area, at

which point, as soon as possible, we`ll get him extradited back here to Colorado, and he`ll be facing for his crimes there in Boulder.

JACKSON: Tim Hughes, thank you for the fine work that you do, the men and women that you work with every day. And of course, that was "The Hunt"

that`s responsible for his capture. And it comes up on Sunday here on HLN 8:00 PM Eastern time. So great work to "The Hunt" and John Walsh. Wow,

love when that happens.

All right, so now back to Massachusetts. We`re following the case of a young woman who is charged with sending a flurry of text messages which

caused her boyfriend`s suicide. And that was Michelle Carter`s own words, and it was just those words that sealed her fate.

[20:05:06]Now, hundreds of text messages that the then-17-year-old sent her boyfriend, Conrad Roy, were the key evidence in her trial. Prosecutors

tried to prove that Michelle`s texts caused Conrad to commit suicide, and they did, in fact, prove just that.

Like this one. "The more you push it off, the more it will eat at you. You`re ready and prepared. All you have to do is turn the generator on,

and you`ll be free and happy."

And in the end, the judge found Michelle guilty of involuntary manslaughter in Conrad`s death. A short time ago, that same judge, he issued the

sentence. Let`s take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDGE LAWRENCE MONIZ, BRISTOL COUNTY JUVENILE COURT: Ms. Carter, a guilty finding having been entered on the indictment charging you with the

involuntary manslaughter of Conrad Roy III now sentences you to two-and-a- half years in the Bristol County house of correction. Fifteen months of said sentence shall be deemed a committed sentence, and the balance thereof

shall be suspended until August 1st of 2022. You will be on probation, administrative, until you are released from incarceration, supervised

thereafter, and the date of probation commences today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: And HLN`s Mike Galanos joins us from that courthouse. Mike, you`ve been there all day. Follow the story from the beginning. Take us

through today.

MIKE GALANOS, HLN ANCHOR: Well, that was just the beginning there, Joey, as we heard the judge say that that sentence commences today. But you saw

the wheels churning (sic) with the defense attorney for Michelle Carter because after that, Conrad Roy`s family`s thinking justice served.

Not so fast because Michelle Carter`s attorney argues -- and I`m using laymen`s terms here -- Wait a minute, we`re appealing that original

conviction, and we think we`ve got a good case. We don`t think she did anything wrong under the law. So it`s not fair that she`s going to spend

basically her entire sentence behind bars before the appeal is heard. So with that said, he said, You need to stay this prison sentence. And that`s

what the judge did.

So now the appeal process will play out. What does that mean? Michelle Carter doesn`t go to jail. Michelle Carter goes home. And you have Conrad

Roy`s family in that courtroom trying to process this, going, Wait a minute. How did this happen?

And they came out this courtroom really right behind me, Joey. I am on a ledge here. There`s a good 20 feet below me. I saw the family of Conrad

Roy, eight or ten of them, crying and saying, What happened here? They were in disbelief.

Here`s the fiance of Conrad Roy`s aunt. Here`s what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIMMY BRODEUR, FIANCEE OF CONRAD ROY`S AUNT: When there was a verdict, the verdict came guilty. There was hope that there might be some justice.

From we`re feeling right now, as long as you`re under 18, it`s OK to bully anyone and you`re just going to get a slap on the wrist. You know, I was

told that Conrad`s youngest nephew (INAUDIBLE) three months old and Conrad will never get to meet. She gets to go home tonight and to her nice home,

and whatever, she`s got to stay in Massachusetts. She can be a 6-5 (ph) tomorrow. You know, what kind of justice is that?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GALANOS: What kind of justice is that? That`s Jimmy Brodeur there. You can see the anger. That was the emotion, from tears to anger, Joey, as the

day progressed. And now they`ve got to be sitting at home, wondering what is next. How much longer will this play out? They`ve been waiting three

years for justice. They`re going to continue to wait now as they watch this appeals process play out.

JACKSON: They certainly are, Mike. You know, I was struck, of course, by the fact -- and it was brought up -- that, listen, on a conviction, you

could reverse that. But once you put someone in jail, that`s not reversible. And I think that that weighed pretty heavily on the judge`s

mind in actually saying, You know what? Let`s stay this in caution and let the appellate court do what they have to do.

So Mike Galanos, thank you so much for your fine reporting outside the courthouse.

You know, there`s a sound bite that I also want to play that has to do with the prosecutor reacting to the stay by the judge. Let`s take a look at

that and talk about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARYCLARE FLYNN, BRISTOL COUNTY ASSISTANT DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Well, we are certainly disappointed that the judge chose to stay the sentence. We

remain, as we always have, steadfast in our belief that Michelle Carter committed involuntary manslaughter and needs to be held accountable.

As we stated after the verdict, this was a tragedy for everyone connected to the case. We hope that the trial in the very least brought more

awareness to the complex issues of technology in our society, the way our words can impact one another and the way that we treat each other through

all methods of communication.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: So that`s the prosecutor there, of course. And we have a prosecutor here of our own and a defense attorney here of our own, and that

is -- not really here, but Wendy Patrick -- she`s in Los Angeles. And we have Troy Slaten. Or, Wendy, you`re not -- where are you? You are in Los

Angeles.

WENDY PATRICK, VETERAN PROSECUTOR: I`m in Los Angeles.

JACKSON: Both of you are in Los Angeles. All right. So let me ask both of you -- listen, on the issue of the stay, was that at all a surprise?

Wendy, we`ll start with you on the issue of the stay. Was that a surprise to you, do you think? And we knew that the attorney would be asking for

it. But the fact that it was granted and she`s not in jail, what say you as to that, Wendy?

[20:10:12]PATRICK: It`s not a surprise. And in fact, what you heard is the judge say that he had anticipated that request and had already done the

research. How do you like that?

But it is a surprise to the family. Our hearts goes out to the Roy family. To them, justice delayed is justice denied. But the reason the fact that

the stay is not a surprise to those of us in the legal community is this is a novel concept, the fact that words are used in this fashion as deadly

weapons. And as we see in many other cases, this litigation will no doubt lead to legislation. Maybe we`ll have Conrad`s law.

What we see is that technology has outpaced the law, and what we need to do is figure out the boundaries of when words can be charged as weapons, as

they were in this case.

JACKSON: Yes, you...

PATRICK: So not a surprise on the stay, but doesn`t make the family feel any better, unfortunately.

JACKSON: No, not at all, Wendy. And that`s the whole issue, right? When can words -- and if they`re used, is it -- does it amount to criminality?

So let`s listen to a piece of sound right now, and them I`m going to get your reaction to this coming out of it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: Are you pleased with the stay?

JOSEPH CATALDO, ATTORNEY FOR MICHELLE CARTER: Very much so. Yes.

QUESTION: What do you think of the 15-month sentence itself? What do you think (INAUDIBLE)

CATALDO: We disagree with that because we don`t believe a law was violated. We don`t think any incarceration or any probation should have

been ordered because we just fundamentally disagree with the court`s ruling, with all due respect, that a law was broken.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: So Troy, on the issue of a law broken, I think the attorney is hanging his hat on two things. Number one, no assisted suicide statute in

that state, and number two, free speech. What about that?

SLATEN: Joey, in 40 states in our union, it`s illegal to encourage or coerce someone to commit suicide. Massachusetts is one of the 10 states

that does not have such a law. So that`s why they relied on the common-law definition of manslaughter to make their case here, the very able

prosecutors there, like my colleague Wendy sitting next to me. So I think that the judge here did the right thing.

And it also shows that he`s not 100 percent sure that a law was broken here, and that`s why it`s so important to let the Supreme Judicial Court of

Massachusetts take a look at this and determine whether or not this was appropriate.

JACKSON: Yes, I agree with that, Troy. Troy Slaten, stand by. Wendy Patrick, stand by. I`ll get back to you momentarily.

Now, John DePetro -- he`s a syndicated talk show host of "The John DePetro Show." He joins us from the courthouse right there. You were in the

courtroom today during the sentencing. Take us through your views as you sat there with all the emotion, all the arguments, and then, of course, the

outcome.

JOHN DEPETRO, SYNDICATED TALK SHOW HOST: Well, Joey, just to give you an idea, I had the family of Conrad Roy in front of me and then the Fairhaven

police to my left. And it was a real roller-coaster of emotion, especially the impact statements. When Conrad`s dad got up and referred to him as

Cocoa (ph), and anyone that`s a parent, you always have a nickname. I have three children. You have a nickname. That was the first time family

members had heard him refer to his son that way.

And when his sister got up and talked about all the things that she missed out on, and then, obviously, you know, Conrad`s mom was too emotional.

In many ways, the impact statements, Joey -- it almost seemed as though they were talking to Conrad, telling him just how proud they were of him

and it was an honor -- as the prosecutor read the statement of his mother, it was an honor to be his mother.

Now, the police to my left -- you know, again, they didn`t know what to expect. This was a tough case. This was first she was seen as the

sympathetic girlfriend. It was text messages. It was very, very dramatic. When the judge announced that -- and Joey, keep in mind, the family members

-- first, they were thinking, you know, 20 years, then somewhere 7 to 12. When the judge said two-and-a-half years, you could feel around me the

sense of relief. At least she`s going to get something.

And I also looked to my left, and the Fairhaven police -- they gave that nod to each other, like, After all of this, you know what? We did our job,

it was worth it. They were not prepared for what happened, played out after that where the judge then said he was going to stay the sentence.

They were looking at each other. They were asking each other, What exactly does this mean?

One family member turned back to me and said, Does this mean she goes free? I didn`t even know what to say. You went from at least a feeling of

relief, Joey, to suddenly, this -- it was like another dagger in the heart.

And one of the most horrifying moments -- and this was something, Joey, that the family had not anticipated -- was when the judge said Michelle

Carter should in no way profit off the crime.

[20:15:02]Joey, I think that was something that never entered their mind. That -- when we talk about social media, that`s also a new dynamic we`re

living with. You know, O.J.`s going to get out. Is he going to get a reality show? That seemed to strike the family so hard, like, profit from

the crime. You know?

And I also loved how Conrad`s mother said -- you know, this is someone that said she loved him. This is how you treat someone that you love? Where is

the humanity? Even though his mother was too emotional to speak, and the prosecutor, as you`ve heard, she got emotional. And it was so riveting

that you could feel the family felt it was so wretched to not have that final conversation with Conrad.

JACKSON: An amazing experience in that courtroom, John DePetro. We could talk to you all night. Great work that you did there. Just -- I mean,

this is ground-turning (ph) stuff, without question. Appreciate you joining us.

I want to bring in Dr. Robi Ludwig. She, of course, is a licensed psychotherapist and the author of -- let`s show it here -- "Till Death Do

Us Part: Love, Marriage and the Mind of the Killer Spouse." Great book. Advise you all to get a great read.

So Robi, take us through this. I mean, you know, there`s a major psychological component here, I guess on both parts, right...

ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes. Yes.

JACKSON: ... on Conrad Roy and then Michelle. Educate us about that.

LUDWIG: Well, I think you have a situation where someone who is suicidal was attracted to somebody who was murderous, and somebody who was murderous

was attracted to somebody who was suicidal. So in a dysfunctional way, they really met each other`s needs, their, you know, neurotic needs, if you

will.

But I think that there`s no doubt here that Michelle wanted her boyfriend dead. We don`t know all the reasons why, but that was her end game and

that was considered success to her. So it was almost like murder by proxy.

Now, legally, I don`t know if you can call it murder, but she wanted him dead. She knew how to manipulate him. She knew what to say. And that`s

what she wanted.

JACKSON: But Robi, how does a 17-year-old get to the point where they say such things? We talk about the texts that she sent. I mean, they seem

inhumane to me.

(CROSSTALK)

LUDWIG: Teens can be mean. It`s morally reprehensible, what she did. And I think in many ways, the law wants to make her an example. And they

should because teens are on social media. They`re using texts. They say mean things to one another. And I do think that there should be

consequences...

JACKSON: Absolutely.

LUDWIG: ... that your words have power. If you`re going to use them, you have to stand by them. You have to live by them, you have to die by them,

so to speak.

JACKSON: Literally in this case.

LUDWIG: And I do think we need to send that message out as a society. And we know kids can be mean, and the danger is, is that peers really strongly

influence each other. They`re going to listen to each other more than an adult because that`s the phase they developmentally they`re in.

JACKSON: Yes, and that`s the problem. I mean -- go back, go back, go back. And she goes back based, or he, rather, goes back, based on what she

directed him to do, and now he`s no longer.

LUDWIG: That`s right. It`s really tragic.

JACKSON: Appreciate you. Oh, my goodness, is it!

LUDWIG: Yes.

JACKSON: You know, we have a lot more to tell you about this surprising sentencing in this text messaging case involving the death of Michelle

Carter. (sic) But just how much, if any, time will Carter actually spend behind bars as she remains free tonight? We`re going to debate.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[20:22:23]MARYCLARE FLYNN, BRISTOL COUNTY ASSISTANT DISTRICT ATTORNEY: What a travesty. There is no earthly reason why Conrad Henry Roy should

not be here today with his loving family, enjoying life, sharing his many gifts with the world. But he is not, and the reason he is not here is the

defendant, Michelle Carter. Her actions killed Conrad Roy. She ended his life to better her own.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: Continuing coverage tonight of the sentencing of Michelle Carter. That`s the 20-year-old who was convicted of involuntary manslaughter for

encouraging her boyfriend, Conrad -- Conrad Roy, that is -- to kill himself. Now, a judge sentenced her to two-and-a-half years in prison, but

she`ll only have to serve about 15 months of that time when she finally reports, and that`s because the judge delayed the start of her sentence

until after the appeals have been exhausted.

And I want to go right to the attorneys. We still have Troy Slaten, I hope, in Los Angeles, as well as Wendy Patrick in Los Angeles, and of

course, Mike Galanos right outside the courthouse. So let`s talk about this with the fine lawyers.

So Wendy, I`ll start with you from a prosecution`s perspective. What were you struck by when the judge was pronouncing sentence? I know that you

felt that it would be more of a steeper sentence. Were you surprised by the fact that he went to two-a-and-a-half years, then gave her really 15

months because he suspended part of the sentence and then said, Well, never mind? You`re not going to step foot in the jailhouse today.

PATRICK: Joey, you know I was surprised because that was not my prediction when you and I spoke this morning when, you`re right, I was in another

city. My prediction this morning was that he was not going to throw the book at her but at least impose a stiffer sentence commensurate to her

conduct, which was absolutely reprehensible. Everybody agrees with that.

But what he really did, what struck me about the way he did it is he made a very good record. Why? No doubt because he knows this is such a novel and

unique set of circumstances, of course it`s going to be appealed, and of course, every decision he makes is going to be looked at with a fine-

toothed comb.

So what I am surprised that he did is, actually, when you think about it through retrospect, as we`ve had a chance to do all day today, is he really

made a point of emphasizing the rehabilitation aspect of sentencing a juvenile offender. He talked about that. He talked about the manual that

he used. He talked about the fact that he wasn`t swayed that it should have been an excuse for the crime, but that is a mitigant.

[20:25:00]And he also said that he found she`s young enough to be rehabilitated. Now, make no mistake about it, I think he`s going to make

sure she does serve that time, at least 15 months of it. But even with that, you`ve got good time credits. You`ve got -- you know, there`s always

going to be a way she gets out sooner, rather than later.

JACKSON: Exactly. And Troy, before I turn to you, just -- Wendy, just in response to that, yes, you predicted more time, but you know, for the

viewers, the fact is is that every judge is different. And you could have very well been right had somebody else been wearing that robe. Judges have

a great deal of discretion. You would have been harsher, right, but this judge apparently felt going another way.

And so to you, Troy, if I can just ask, were you surprised that she got any time at all, considering that the rehabilitative component, as we talked

about earlier, is the primary thing you look to when you`re dealing with a youth? And let`s remind everyone this happened in 2014 when she was 17

years old, Troy.

SLATEN: So I think, Joey, absolutely, that because the rehabilitative aspect is what`s primary in a juvenile case, she should have gotten

psychiatric treatment and maybe some sort of day reporting probation with a significant suspended sentence over her head, whereas if she didn`t do that

psychiatric treatment, she didn`t do the community service, she didn`t do the things that the court had in its portfolio to impose on her, then that

jail could crash down on her like the sword of Damocles.

Now, that 15 months isn`t actually going to be 15 months. In Massachusetts, you`re entitled to parole after about a third to two thirds

of the sentence. So that could only be about five months in actual custody time. And in Massachusetts, when you`re doing day reporting or you`re out

on GPS, that`s considered custody time. So she may be out a lot sooner than 15 months, assuming that her appeals fail.

JACKSON: It`s so true. And we`re about to play some sound momentarily from the prosecutor, but before we do, let me just say this. What I find

fascinating and always have since the time I got into this legal business, is that you can have two very bright minds, right, but have very different

points of view in terms of where we go because look at what you`re saying, Wendy Patrick, that there clearly should have been more time here, and

you`re, you know, saying, I`m a little upset there wasn`t. And Troy, you`re saying, Let`s focus on rehabilitation. Let`s give her less time.

So if Troy Slaten`s the judge, you get one sentence. If Wendy Patrick`s the judge, you get another.

But let`s look at what the prosecutor had to say in terms of what they felt the crime was all about. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARYCLARE FLYNN, BRISTOL COUNTY ASSISTANT DISTRICT ATTORNEY: The defendant`s conduct in this cases was egregious and ultimately caused the

death of Conrad Roy. She undertook a systematic campaign of coercion and targeted an equivocating young man`s insecurities and fears and acted to

subvert her willpower -- his willpower in favor of her own.

This was compounded by her manipulation and deception of the Roy family in the hours and the months following Conrad`s death.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: All right. And we have Mike Galanos outside the courthouse. You know, Mike, you were there. You`ve been able to soak this up all day. And

it always comes back, of course, to the victim and victims in the case and what their feelings were about today`s events. You were right there.

You`ve been there. Take us through that.

GALANOS: Well, let`s talk about what they`re processing here. And we heard from the prosecutor and the prosecutor again went to that place, was

this was deliberate. She planned his death. And it was for her benefit, that she was this young girl that craved the attention, that she need a

suicidal boyfriend to have the attention of the friends that she wanted. And he needed to kill himself to, again, further that, more attention to

her. So that`s this heinous plan that was carried out. So you have that aspect to it.

Then you hear in court from her defense attorney. She`s going to get into real estate. And the family of Conrad Roy`s thinking, Our family member`s

dead, and she`s thinking real estate and her life goes on?

And here`s the question I`ll throw back at you or any of the three of you as attorneys. Is there any chance that she never spends a day behind bars,

that some clock runs out, even if the appeal is denied?

JACKSON: Yes. That`s a great point, Mike, as you see the actual, you know, families really reacting to this. And there`s a chance that she may

not. You know what? An appellate court may agree that this was not a crime, and as much as it was only verbal speech. And so you know what?

You never step foot in jail at all, and that leads to the outrage.

So Mike, you have had a tremendously long day. Fine work at the courthouse. We appreciate all you`ve done. Mike Galanos, HLN, thank you

so much.

All right, a shocking and gruesome death -- just turning the page here -- stuns a community -- not this case, but a case in Mississippi. Now, how

does a woman end up hanging from a mailbox by her shoestrings tied in a noose? That`s next.

[20:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JOEY JACKSON, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, CNN AND HLN LEGAL ANALYST: A mystery is growing in Mississippi. A mail carrier found Jessica Johnson

hanging from a mailbox just over three feet high by shoestrings that were tied in a noose.

We have a photo of Jessica, but we want to warn you, it`s very graphic and could be disturbing to some, if not most viewers. As you can see and

looking at the photo, Jessica is on her knees with her head resting on the post. Now, two laces tied end to end, wrapped around her neck, and attached

to a mailbox. And between Jessica`s legs was her purse.

Now, Jessica`s mom gave the picture of her daughter to local TV stations in Memphis because she wanted everyone to know how she died and that foul play

just may have been involved. And Jessica`s mom added this graphic photo to her Facebook page showing her arms while they were preparing Jessica`s body

for the funeral. You could see potential injuries right there, very graphic.

Investigators say that the preliminary cause of death is asphyxiation due to ligature strangulation

[20:35:00] and say it was a suicide. But Jessica`s family isn`t buying it and they believe that she was murdered.

Bob Alexander is the news director for 92.5, that`s Fox News. He joins us from Fort Myers, Florida. Take us through it. What do we know? Was this a

suicide? Was it not?

BOB ALEXANDER, NEWS DIRECTOR, 92.5 FOX NEWS (via telephone): Well, Joey, police officials in in Horn Lake, Mississippi just about 20 miles south of

Memphis are calling this one of the most bizarre cases they`ve ever seen. It was a U.S. postal worker that called 911 and found Jessica tied to a

mailbox.

The coroner who arrived estimates that Jessica had been hanging there for several hours before she was found. They did say that the preliminary cause

of death was due to ligature strangulation. They say it`s going to be another few months before the full report by the medical examiner is

available.

But to Jessica`s friends and family, they`re calling the suicide theory completely absurd. They believe this was a murder, and they are very upset

with law enforcement for what they say are wasting time, not extending that time looking for a potential killer.

JACKSON: Absolutely, Bob. I`m going get to Linda Johnson in a minute. But let me just ask you. What is the latest as to that? What do the police

believe? Do you know what their investigation has entailed and what are they doing now?

ALEXANDER (via telephone): Well, the police right now are pretty much, again, putting this on the shelf as a suicide. They`re really not doing too

much except waiting for the results from the coroner, which again are not going to be available for at least a couple more months.

And Jessica`s family and friends are looking for answers. They want closure on this case. And they present a pretty good case why this could be a

murder. There are a number of issues that suggest this could be a murder. And a lot of people are starting to point and ask why are law enforcement

officials not doing more to try and determine if this was indeed a murder.

JACKSON: Absolutely, Bob Alexander. We appreciate that. And on that note and why they`re not doing more and what those issues are as to why it could

be a murder, I want to turn to Linda Johnson. She is the mother of Jessica Johnson.

She joins us from Horn Lake, Mississippi. Our condolences from everyone here at HLN "Primetime Justice." We are so sorry for your loss. Please tell

us what`s going on here and who could have wanted her dead?

LINDA JOHNSON, MOTHER OF JESSICA JOHNSON (via telephone): That`s a hard question. We have our suspicions of who it was.

JACKSON: Linda, have you shared those suspicions with the police at all?

JOHNSON (via telephone): Yes. Yes, I have.

JACKSON: And if you care to speak about them now, again, we`re not casting aspersions on anyone. We don`t know who did anything or how it occurred or

if it was a suicide, but just in terms of what your theory may be as to why your precious daughter is dead.

JOHNSON (via telephone): Well, she was in a very domestic -- very domestic abusive relationship with on and off boyfriend. And we believe that our

daughter was murdered inside the home and then carried out to the mailbox and placed on display.

JACKSON: Is there anything in particular, Ms. Johnson, that gives you that feeling? Was there something that was disheveled in the home? Did it look

staged? What are you basing --

JOHNSON (via telephone): Yes, it was definitely staged. It was definitely staged. My daughter, you know, my daughter -- I knew that my daughter was

having, you know, problems with her boyfriend or ex-boyfriend rather, whatever.

And he was very -- he was very abusive with her. Both mentally and physically. She told me. And I`d even gotten pictures of, you know, some of

the things that he`s done to her, you know, where he beat her up and things like that.

JACKSON: Over what period of time? How long were they together?

JOHNSON (via telephone): Two and a half years probably.

JACKSON: And during the course of that time it was stormy throughout that relationship?

JOHNSON (via telephone): Yes, yes.

JACKSON: And if I could just ask you before I turn to Dr. Maurice Godwin, what about any other theories? Do you believe it was him or could there

have been someone else who meant her ill?

JOHNSON (via telephone): I believe that, you know, there may be more people involved in this. I believe that he was the one that probably carried out

the act. Because they had been fighting that afternoon. Witnesses report they`d been fighting almost that whole day.

[20:40:00] And so yes, I do.

JACKSON: That`s pretty compelling, Ms. Johnson. Thank yo so much for being here.

JOHNSON (via telephone): Yes. Another thing she always made it very clear to me -- and this bothers me now when I think about what happened to her

now, but she would always tell me, mama, if anything happens to me, go find him.

JACKSON: Oh, boy. Oh, boy.

JOHNSON (via telephone): Because she knew that -- yes.

JACKSON: She will have it -- she was concerned and was frightened of him. I just want to turn to Dr. Maurice Godwin. He`s a criminal investigative

psychologist and forensic scientist. He`s working with Jessica Johnson`s family.

I`m so sorry for butchering your name. I know it`s Godwin. I know you`ve been doing a lot on this case. He is joining us from Fayetteville, North

Carolina. Tell us what your thoughts are. Was this a staged scene? Could she have committed suicide? Take us through it.

DR. MAURICE GODWIN, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIVE PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, when she was mentioning about the safe scene, she wasn`t referring to the house, she was

referring to the mailbox. And that`s really what was staged at the mailbox. The coroner -- the medical examiner has basically ruled this case a

suicide.

He did so before he got toxicology report back. And also, her clothing has been destroyed. We don`t know where the shoestrings are. We`ve got the

shoes. So the shirt that she had on when she was found at the mailbox is not the shirt that she wore to that party at the house behind the mailbox.

She had a spaghetti top on and she had a different shirt on at the mailbox. So there`s a number of things. First of all, to rule it a suicide or a

homicide, you got to do a little bit of investigation.

And there`s been -- and when you destroyed the clothing, you don`t have possession of the phone, the family has it. How can you rule anything

without at least the clothing and stuff? We don`t know where the shoestrings are neither. So there`s a number of things that points to

homicide in this case.

JACKSON: Dr. Godwin, we appreciate your work. We know you`ll continue to work with the family. Hopefully we see justice prevail in this case.

Appreciate you joining us tonight.

GODWIN: Thank you very much.

JACKSON: Thank you. You know, a man tells police that he finds his wife dead and she`s swimming in their backyard pool. Now the focus is on the

husband and his story in this mysterious case. Stay with us.

[20:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JACKSON: A woman`s body is found in the family pool. And now, six weeks after her death, her husband has been charged with murder. Michelle Long

and a little dog were found in the pool in the couple`s upscale New Jersey home not far from Philadelphia. You see her there.

Now her husband Norman claims that he went to Applebee`s to pick up food for her and him. And you know what? When he returned, he says she was

floating face down in the pool. But authorities, well, they tell a different story. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEAN DALTON, PROSECUTOR, GLOUCESTER COUNTY: Our investigation determined that Mr. Long killed his wife inside their home and placed her fully

clothed body in their backyard swimming pool.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: Now, prosecutors say that this trip to Applebee`s was, well, it was more than just grabbing a bite to eat. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DALTON: He subsequently drove to a local restaurant and upon his return pretended to discover her body in the pool and advised first responders

that she drowned.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: So an autopsy found that Michelle didn`t drown, rather, she died from blunt force trauma. That husband, Norman, he now is charged with

murder, as we mentioned, but the big question remains why.

Bert Baron is a morning show host from WCTC Radio. He joins us from New Brunswick, New Jersey. Pretty strange set of circumstances. How did the

authorities become suspicious? And what led to all eyes being on the husband?

BERT BARON, MORNING SHOW HOST, WCTC RADIO (via telephone): Well, apparently a history of violence for Michelle and Norman over the years. And the story

about finding her in the swimming pool, well, didn`t exactly go over so well. Her blood was actually discovered on some towels, paper towels that

were found in the kitchen trash, and there really was no other suspect at all in this, Joey.

The police were figuring it was Norman all along. And they finally made the arrest. They really weren`t looking at any other suspects in this. He

didn`t fool anybody with the whole Applebee`s story.

JACKSON: It doesn`t appear at all. So when you say no one else, Bert, is there no other motivation? Did she hang out with maybe a different crowd?

Could there have been someone beyond the husband who wanted her dead? Or is it just ironclad, it was you, Mr. Husband?

BARON (via telephone): At this point, they have no other reason to consider anyone else. There were some comments that were made by Michelle`s daughter

about a rather lengthy and violent history between the two, and law enforcement knows that when this sort of thing is going on, unless the

woman takes the steps and does what she needs to do to save her own life, unfortunately, this is the outcome. It`s the worst possible outcome for

Michelle Long, obviously.

JACKSON: It really is. Bert Baron, morning show host, WCTC Radio. We appreciate that. Now, before going to the lawyers on this, Dr. Robi, I have

to turn to you, because I`ve talked and I`ve asked you this question. Why not just get a divorce? Why not just leave the house? Why not

[20:50:00] just go to counseling? Why do people kill their spouses allegedly?

DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: It`s a really good question. Well, the murderous spouse feels that their partner is standing in the way of having

what they want in life. So they are very enraged. And divorce is expensive. It takes a long time. And there are many murderous spouses, they don`t want

the lose half their assets or their standing in the community.

JACKSON: It`s a great point. But, Robi, look at this beautiful house. So, you don`t want to give away half of your money --

LUDWIG: That`s right.

JACKSON: -- but you want to spend the rest of your life in jail when you`re 51 years old --

LUDWIG: But they`re not thinking that.

JACKSON: -- and give that away.

LUDWIG: Wait, they`re not thinking that. They are thinking I can get away with murder. They`re not thinking correctly. They`re angry. They don`t

maybe want their partner to have a life. And so, you know, with divorce, they move on. They can get remarried to other people. It can create

jealousy.

But I think the bottom line is these people are very self-focused, and they don`t want to, you know, alter anything in their life. They don`t want to

share money, alter their standing in the community. And they feel entitled to have everything that they want.

JACKSON: I don`t get it. Dr. Robi, I just don`t get it.

LUDWIG: That`s a good thing. That`s why you`re here --

JACKSON: Exactly.

LUDWIG: -- and he is there.

JACKSON: Get a divorce, right?

LUDWIG: Right.

JACKSON: Do go to counseling, do something, don`t go to Applebee`s and then say I was getting sandwich.

LUDWIG: And it`s a damn lie too. It`s a lie that could be (INAUDIBLE), right?

JACKSON: I just don`t get it. But anyway, let`s see what the attorneys think. Of course, we have Wendy Patrick, outstanding prosecutor. Troy

Slaten, equally outstanding defense attorney. So on the issue here, Troy, I have to turn to you first because prosecutor has the closing word, right?

How do you begin to defend a case like this? And just before you begin, Troy, I just want to talk about a timeline here. And we`ll show the

timeline to you in terms of what happened. You see a 5:21, Troy, his wife`s last communication on this text. At 6:11, last activity on the home

computer.

But it`s interesting because he claims he left at 6:30 or 7:00 for Applebee`s and that at the time that she was on the computer. Seems to be

contradicted by the evidence. And last thing I`ll have you figure out is this. At 6:59, the husband`s truck appears to travel in the direction of

Applebee`s. So, Troy, use that esteemed defense work that you do and get him out of this one.

TROY SLATEN, ATTORNEY: Why would he do it, Joey? People have tumultuous relationships all the time. They were married and together for 15 years.

They owned a business together. And the police have not been able to answer that one simple question, why.

And so I think that, you know, maybe there was somebody else that came in. Maybe this was a robbery gone wrong. And just because the police haven`t

found anybody else doesn`t mean that nobody else could have done it. And now that they`ve made their arrest, does that mean they`re not out looking

for the potential killer?

JACKSON: Wendy Patrick, Troy makes a very good point. Give us in 30 seconds your best prosecution argument.

WENDY PATRICK, ATTORNEY: We don`t need to prove motive, period. End of argument. We don`t need to prove why. And I got to tell you, this was one

of the most clumsiest cover-ups we have ever seen. Both of you are excellent defense attorneys.

Neither of you would likely have left with this case. Not only, like you said, do the evidence and the timeline not make sense, remember he tried to

conceal evidence. Remember the blood was found on the towels the and the tissues that were in the kitchen.

I mean, he did everything wrong. It was almost you wonder if he wanted to get caught. Now, does that set him up for a mental defense? Because

remember what happened when they got to the scene and started performing CPR. He was combative.

He was apparently booked into a psychiatric facility. So, there may be some issue. Somebody maybe is going to argue that he snapped at the scene, but

there is no way the evidence is overwhelming at this point.

JACKSON: Pretty powerful closing argument. Wendy, I want to correct you. Troy and I wouldn`t have luck unless, of course, if we were facing you we

wouldn`t have luck. Everybody else maybe we`d get by. Thank you, guys, so much.

PATRICK: Right back at you. Thank you.

SLATEN: Thanks, Joey.

JACKSON: I want to update you on breaking news that we brought you at the top of the show. It`s a fugitive that is Dino Curcio who was featured on

"The Hunt with John Walsh" on HLN just this past Sunday. I watched, a very good episode. But he`s been captured. And the U.S. marshals service says

it`s all thanks to our viewers.

They say that more than a dozen calls hit the tip line after the show aired leading to the accused rapist`s capture. This Sunday, John Walsh is back at

it, putting fugitives on notice in the newest episode of "The Hunt." This week, the search is on for Herman Carroll, a serial child molester who

preys on young women. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Herman Carroll would make games with his daughter. He would say, for instance, on this camping trip, he told her to go catch a

frog. If she couldn`t catch the frog, he gets to play with her later.

[20:55:00] If she doesn`t listen to what he says, then he gets to play with her later. If she disobeys in any way, he gets to play with her later. He

would use the sexual molestation as a form of punishment.

In 1983, Herman Carroll was convicted of raping his young daughter. He did go to trial for that and he was sentenced to 48 days in jail and two years

probation. There were no sex offender registration laws in 1983 in the estate of Illinois.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: Now, "The Hunt with John Walsh" airs Sunday night at 8:00 p.m. Eastern only here on HLN. We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:00:00] JACKSON: On behalf of Ashleigh Banfield and the entire "Primetime Justice" team here at HLN, thanks so much for watching. I`m Joey

Jackson. "Forensic Files" begins right now.

END