Return to Transcripts main page

Wolf

Collins on Red Line for Mueller; Defending Health Care Votes; Jobless Rate at 16-year Low; Trump's Vacation; Grand Jury Issues Subpoenas. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired August 04, 2017 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer. It's 1:00 p.m. here in Washington, 8:00 p.m. in Damascus, 1:00 a.m. Saturday in Manila. Wherever you're watching from around the world, thanks very much for joining us.

In just a couple of hours, President Trump hits the road for a 17-day vacation. He'll head to his golf club in Bedminster, New Jersey, while back here in Washington, the special counsel Robert Mueller clearly turning up the heat on his investigation into possible collusion between the Trump campaign with Russia. Mueller now issuing grand jury subpoenas as he follows the money trail looking into Trump's team finances.

Our Senior White House Correspondent Jim Acosta is joining us from the White House. Jim, we heard the president push back on the grand jury news while in Virginia -- West Virginia last night, calling it sour grapes by Democrats. What are you hearing from officials over there today?

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, we were hoping to hear from the president today. He is not going to hold a news conference, as presidents often do as they head off on their summer vacation. The president is not going to be doing that, as we're hearing from White House officials. I suppose he could surprise us and talk to the cameras as he's heading out on the south lawn and getting on Marine One. But that's unlikely. We'll see if that happens.

But, you're right, at that political rally in West Virginia, there was a distinctly different tone coming from the president, talking about the Russia investigation. Yes, he did accuse Democrats of sour grapes but he did not lash out at the news media as he often does when talking about this story.

Take a listen to how the president described it last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Most people know there were no Russians in our campaign. There never were. We didn't win because of Russia. We won because of you. They can't beat us at the voting booths. So, they're trying to cheat you out of the future and the future that you want. They're trying to cheat you out of the leadership you want. (END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: And we heard the president say there last night that there were no Russians in his campaign. But, of course, Wolf, we should point out, members of his campaign did meet with the Russians, including his own son, Donald Trump Jr.

How do we know that? Because the president's son, as we all know, released those e-mails noting that he and Paul Manafort, Jared Kushner, the president's son-in-law, met with Russians last year during the campaign.

And the other thing we should point out, Wolf. While we don't expect him to hold a news conference here today, there is a possibility he could do that up at Bedminster, New Jersey. Obviously, he has the capability to do that. The White House calling this a working vacation.

And, Wolf, I remember last year when we went to his golf courses in Scotland. He held, soft of, a rolling news conference with reporters, taking us from hole to hole on the golf course and answering questions along the way.

Who knows if we'll see that again, but we'll be at the golf course for the next couple of weeks covering the president. We'll see what happens -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Well, and whenever he wants to hold a news conference, we'll have coverage of that. Jim Acosta at the White House, thanks very much.

So, let's get some perspective on the ramped-up Russia investigation and the Trump administration's response. Joining us, we have CNN Politics Reporter, Editor At Large Chris Cillizza, Perry Bacon, a Senior Political Writer for "Five Thirty-Eight." Laura Coates is a CNN Legal Analyst, former federal prosecutor and our CNN Justice Correspondent Pamela Brown.

Pamela, you and your team have been doing excellent reporting on this intensified phase now of Robert Mueller's investigation looking into possible financial ties between Trump, his associates and Russians. What more can you tell us about where this investigation stands right now?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: And to learn more about where it stands, it's important to go from the beginning, one year ago from July, when the FBI opened up this investigation, Wolf. And we've learned -- my team Evan Perez, Shimon Prokupecz, have learned that it began because investigators noticed curious contacts between Trump campaign associates and Russians.

And also, of course, there was a cyber hack at the DNC. That's where it began.

Fast forward a year later. Now, under the direction of Robert Mueller, Special Counsel, there is a focus on the finances of not only President Trump, but also his family members, also the Trump Organization as well. All of that is under scrutiny.

We've learned investigators are going back, combing through shell companies. Combing through the backgrounds of Russian business associates connected to the 2013 Miss Universe Pageant that, of course, President Trump brought to Moscow.

Also going through all the tenants in Trump Tower over the past several years.

So, really, they're doing a deep dive on the financials. And as we heard Donald Trump say in that interview with "The New York Times," he believes anything having to do with his personal finances is crossing a line. But it's clear that that really is a big focus of the investigation -- Wolf.

BLITZER: You know, Chris, there was an important interview on "NEW DAY" this morning. The Former Whitewater special counsel, Ken Starr, --

CHRIS CILLIZZA, CNN POLITICS REPORTER, EDITOR AT LARGE: Yes.

BLITZER: -- asked whether or not Robert Mueller is going beyond what his investigation is supposed to be focusing in on, and listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[13:05;03] KEN STARR FORMER WHITEWATER INDEPENDENT COUNSEL: To the extent that you're moving beyond collusion with Russian operatives or Russian interests or the Russian government, itself, and into that which doesn't seem to have a direct tie to Russia, then these questions are, in fact, raised.

I don't think that it is clear one way or the other, but I do think it is a -- certainly a serious matter when a special counsel is accused, and I was accused of that, of exceeding his or her authority. That's a serious matter, because we do not want investigators and prosecutors out on a fishing expedition.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: And interesting, coming from Ken Starr. Speaking about a fishing expedition because his investigations, and it went on for four years, started with a land deal, the Whitewater land deal, and wound up investigating the Monica Lewinsky matter with then President Bill Clinton.

CILLIZZA: Yes. Ken Starr, not going to win any self-awareness awards, you know, I don't think. I mean, that's an odd -- I mean, if you look up, sort of -- for many Democrats in the 1990s, Ken Starr, for many independents, for many folks, overly aggressive independent prosecutor. Someone who went beyond the bounds. You see Ken Starr. He's a definition of that. So, kind of odd from him.

Look, I think this comes down to what you believe the definition of directly is. In Rod Rosenstein's order, setting up the deputy attorney general, setting up Bob Mueller as the special counsel. He says, you know, give him free rein to pursue anything directly related to Russia's meddling in the election. So, Republicans define that very narrowly. Well, that -- particularly Donald Trump. That just means the 2016 election.

But as Pam's reporting is pointing out, you know, there could potentially be a long tail here going back a decade, potentially, maybe more, in terms of relationships built between that Trump world and Russia.

So, -- it's a hard thing. Again, I think Ken Starr, frankly, is a flawed messenger to deliver the fishing expedition line.

But the one thing I would note. Dana Bash, our colleague, interviewed Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski this week and asked about Bob Mueller and what was a red line and what wasn't. Susan Collins said, look. Bob Mueller should have the prerogative to follow the leads as he sees them.

There's no an appetite in the Senate -- beyond the Susan Collins' of the Senate, there's not an appetite among Republicans in the Senate to push Bob Mueller out. And I think Donald Trump would run into real danger if he tried to do that.

BLITZER: We're going to have Dana's interview with those two Republican senators.

But, you know, I want to be precise, Laura. Here is the announcement, the statement that the acting attorney general at the time, Rod Rosenstein, issued on May 17th, announcing Robert Mueller would be the special counsel and giving him these instructions to investigate any links and-or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump. And, this is very significant, Chris was alluding to it, any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation.

That seems to give him broad powers. If you see something going on in your investigation that may be criminal, go ahead and investigate it.

LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It doesn't only seem that way, it precisely is that directive. The goal of that directive for Robert Mueller was not for him to be myopic in his approach and focus only on the year 2016 as related to the campaign itself.

It's to understand why there may have been a choice to choose Donald Trump. Why Russia was the country that was involved, perhaps. How there was expected collusion, if any. And what were the parameters that were put in place before the campaign to prepare for any possible collusion?

And if he were to investigate things that happened, that derive even from the Trump campaign or from Donald Trump Jr. or Donald Trump, himself, he has the ability to pursue that rabbit hole, even if it doesn't end in a charge or an indictment. His directive is actually much wider. And when I heard Ken Starr talk this morning, I had a chance to talk to him, it seems as though his argument is a little bit more nuanced. He, of course, came under a different law. He was a different type of special counsel. He was an independent counsel. Janet Reno was overseeing his probe into the Monica Lewinsky scandal. So, he thinks of himself as distinct in that nature.

But overarching the theme here is clear. This is not a tangential issue. You must follow the money to figure out if there was a force of influence in any way, shape or form. And the real estate transactions, the financial dealings, they may all give an insight into the actual collusion, if there was any, in a way that testimony cannot.

But, Wolf, right now, we're at the part and time where we have a grand jury is looking for financial documents. We will see where those lead when we have who was going to testify personally in front of that grand jury to give further insight.

[13:10:00] BLITZER: You wanted to add?

BROWN: Well, I just want to add, I mean, a part of this is not just to see if any crimes were committed by U.S. persons, but it's also, to Laura's point, to understand the Russia influence campaign, how far back it might extend.

And also, a concern about blackmail. Do the Russians have any reason to believe they could have blackmailed over the president or any of his kids for that matter?

BLITZER: Perry, where do you see this heading?

PERRY BACON, SENIOR POLITICAL WRITER, FIVE THIRTY-EIGHT: It seems to me, politically, the problem right now is that whatever talk Trump had about firing Sessions -- excuse me, firing Mueller, that -- yesterday is big for that because now you have a grand jury. You have a talk about looking into his finances, things he doesn't want. It seems to me, he's been ramped up. The ability for him to push out Sessions or push out Mueller is -- was going to be hard before and almost impossible now.

In fact, you had Lindsey Graham and Tom Tillis, two Republican senators, write bills yesterday and put them out saying you basically can't fire the special counsel unless you go through us, the Congress, first.

BLITZER: Yes. Well, those -- that's a legislative proposal. It hasn't been passed yet. It certainly hasn't been signed by the president.

You know, interesting, you were at that news conference today with the attorney general, Jeff Sessions. And he announced a stepped-up attack, an investigation, of the leaks. And there have been enormous amount of leaks so far. He said this. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JEFF SESSIONS, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: One of the things we are doing is reviewing policies affecting media subpoenas. We respect the important role that the press plays, and we'll give them respect. But it is not unlimited.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Yes, he and Dan Coats, the Director of National Intelligence, they spoke on camera with their statements. But then, Sessions had an off-camera exchange with reporters, right?

BROWN: Not Sessions. The deputy attorney general, Rod Rosenstein.

BLITZER: The deputy attorney, Rod Rosenstein. Did he explain what -- because that's a provocative statement.

BROWN: Right.

BLITZER: We respect the important role that the press plays and we'll give them respect. But it is not unlimited?

BROWN: Right. I actually thought it was noteworthy, being at that press conference, that Jeff Sessions left right after and didn't take any questions from reporters after making such a bold statement. That basically saying media subpoenas are not off limits.

And I followed up with Rod Rosenstein during the (INAUDIBLE) after that and asked, longstanding DOJ policy has been not to prosecute reporters. Are you willing to say today that DOJ will not prosecute reporters? And He basically didn't rule it out. He said he doesn't want to get into hypotheticals.

That is a notable shift in the stance of the Department of Justice.

CILLIZZA: I was going to say, remember candidate Trump? I mean, he made quite clear that he thought the libel laws in the country were too strict, in terms of how they work. We need to -- he said, we need to work on loosening the libel law.

So, I'm with Pam. I mean, I was stunned, I guess is the right word, about Sessions, essentially saying, well, you don't get to do whatever you want, media. But it's not as though we didn't have any clue that this was coming. Donald Trump -- we know Donald Trump's not a huge media fan and he has openly contemplated the possibility of doing some things that would -- that would restrict some media freedoms and this is not new.

BLITZER: Very quickly, Perry, you're a reporter. What's your reaction?

BACON: It's very ominous, very ominous. And the idea, basically, a lot of things that have happened, especially the people been critic -- people criticized have come through leaks. Flynn was basically fired because of leaks out of it.

So, this, in some ways, has the mirror at least of being a way for Trump to silence critics. That's a very worrisome thing.

CILLIZZA: Jeff Sessions -- by the way, the reason Jeff Sessions is recused is because our former (ph) colleagues at "The Washington Post" reported meetings with Sergey Kislyak that he didn't disclose. Donald Trump thinks that's the root of this entire special counsel.

BLITZER: Guys, everybody, stay with us because there's a lot more coming up. I want to thank Chris, Laura, Perry and Pamela.

Also coming up, two high-profile Republican senators issuing a warning to President Trump over the Russia investigation. We have details ahead in a CNN exclusive interview.

Plus, President Trump promising jobs. How the July jobs report says he didn't.

[13:13:55]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:17:44] WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: U.S. senators are heading home for the summer break. But before leaving Washington, they agreed to block President Trump from filling any executive branch spots while they're gone. The move is called pro-forma. Essentially it means that the U.S. Senate will gavel into session every few days so it technically never goes into recess. Democrats had already said they'd push for this fearing President Trump might try to use the recess to fire the attorney general, Jeff sessions, who has recused himself from the Russia investigation. But it was actually Republican, let me repeat that, Republican Senator Lisa Murkowski of Alaska who presided over the announcement.

Our chief political correspondent Dana Bash sat down for an exclusive interview with Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins, another Republican senator. You had a fascinating interview, Dana. But I want to first discuss what they told you about the special counsel investigation.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the news was just breaking here on CNN. Our colleagues, Evan Perez, Shimon Prokupecz and Pam Brown all reported this. And I was sitting down and since Senator Collins sits on the Intelligence Committee, I asked about her thoughts, and here was her reaction.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R), MARINE: I believe that the special counsel has a very broad mandate, and he should follow the leads wherever they may be. And thus I do not think his investigation should be constrained beyond the mandate that he was given when he was appointed (ph).

BASH: And the president called that a red line.

COLLINS: The president can't set red lines for Bob Mueller.

SEN. LISA MURKOWSKI (R), ALASKA: Well said.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: A very strong statement from this Republican.

BASH: Yes.

BLITZER: And Lisa Murkowski, I understand, basically agrees on that sensitive issue (ph)?

BASH: Yes. She said, well said.

BLITZER: Well said.

BASH: I mean it's amazing how much sometimes two words and very clear body language can say so much.

BLITZER: Yes. it was -- it was important.

You also spoke with them about their decisive votes that ended, at least for now, repeal and replace of Obamacare. Together with John McCain, they made it impossible for the president and the Republican leadership to go forward with that, at least for now. Do they have any regrets?

BASH: No, not at all. I mean they really don't.

[13:19:55] And, look, I mean, in so much of the country they are being applauded as heroes, as the people who stopped what many people thought was a very bad piece of legislation from going through that would have deprived a lot of Americans who need it most of health insurance. But there are a lot of people who think they are heretics. That they did the absolute wrong thing that they promised for years and years that they, along with other Republicans, that they would repeal Obamacare. This was their chance and they -- and they went back on the promise.

So I really wanted to get, Wolf, from them kind of what was going on behind the scenes because, remember, these two senators, these two women, were nos all across the board from the beginning on the vote to start debate, all the way until the end. Listen to some of what they told me about what happened behind the scenes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R), MAINE: I see myself as someone who has an obligation to represent the people of Maine. And sometimes that means casting uncomfortable votes. Votes that will make my party uncomfortable and even angry at me. I so remember when both Lisa and I were talking with John McCain on the Senate floor and he pointed to both of us and he said, you two are right on this issue.

SEN. LISA MURKOWSKI (R), ALASKA: Yes. Yes, he said, people might not appreciate what has happened right now as being a positive, maybe our colleagues are not going to be viewing this as a positive right now, but the -- the time will -- will prove that having a pause, having a time-out for us to do better is going to be good for the country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Yes, those are strong statements. No regrets. And they're -- actually, they get off a plane, they get back to their home states, I'm told, that people start applauding.

BASH: Yes. I mean Senator Collins was just out for dinner in D.C. and she could barely, you know, finish her dinner because people were coming up and wanting to take pictures and say thank you.

It's funny, Senator Murkowski, she didn't say this on camera, but during our time together she said, you know, I'm not really that comfortable with that because that's not why I went into this at all. And certainly she's getting it from the other side as well. And I think you really cannot understate, Wolf, how much pressure these two senators were under from the president on down. Intense pressure.

The president called Senator Murkowski and they had what she reported to me was a very direct it phone call. And Murkowski even publicly, or actually behind the scenes but in front of all of her colleagues, stood up at the White House at one of those meetings and said, Mr. President, I'm not voting for the Republican Party, I'm voting for the people of Alaska. And Senator Collins just kind of chimed in and said, oh, Lisa, I was so proud of you at that moment because they sort of had each other to buck each -- buck one another up as they were getting a lot of pressure to just go with the party on this.

BLITZER: Right. And supposedly the interior secretary, Ryan Zinke, called Senator Murkowski and said, you know what --

BASH: He did.

BLITZER: There's a lot of federal money that goes to Alaska. You'd better be careful. Something along -- I'm paraphrasing.

BASH: Yes.

BLITZER: Did she react to that?

BASH: Yes, I asked her about that. She said that they did have that conversation. She insisted to me she didn't take it as an actual threat. I will tell you that, in fact, they tweeted a picture -- they had their own sort of form of a beer summit a couple of nights ago and they made sure to put that out in public that they were all fine. The two of them served -- he was a former congressmen from Alaska, so they know each other well.

But that phone call did happen and she said, he was the messenger, making clear that the expectation at the White House was to vote yes, and she said, I just -- I'm not going to do it. For the people of Alaska, it's not right.

BLITZER: As usual, excellent work.

BASH: Thanks, Wolf.

BLITZER: Thanks so much for doing that. Much more coming up after the break. The numbers are now in. The unemployment rate here in the United States falling to a 16-year low. The president says he's just getting started. We're going to break down the numbers, what they mean. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:28:15] BLITZER: President Trump is taking a victory lap today after a very strong jobs report for July. Employers added 209,000 jobs and the unemployment rate fell to 4.3 percent. That is a 16-year low here in the United States. Following the report, the president tweeted this, quote, excellent jobs numbers just released and I have only just begun. Many job stifling regulations continue to fall. Movement back to USA, closed quotes.

Stephen Moore is a CNN senior economics analyst, former Trump campaign adviser.

Stephen, thanks very much for joining us. So, realistically, how much credit do you think the president deserves for these very positive numbers?

STEPHEN MOORE, CNN SENIOR ECONOMICS ANALYST: How did I know you were going to ask me that question?

BLITZER: Because you're a serious economist.

MOORE: I think, first of all, it was a really positive report. You know, we saw some nice wage gains. The jobs were created kind of across the board. Some increases in manufacturing and mining, drilling. So, of course, I think the president deserves some credit for this. I think there's no question the economy -- that the sense of kind of optimism out there increased dramatically after the election, and that continues.

But, you know, this is an amazing American economy. I'm not making a political point here. The real, you know, heroes here are American businesses that have gotten really competitive. You know, just contrast where we are today to ten years ago when American companies were, you know, had debt up to their eyeballs, you know, had over- extended themselves. Now American companies are lean, efficient, productive. A lot of the best economies in the world now are Americans companies. So it's a real tribute to our businesses have really resuscitated themselves.

BLITZER: For six months, one million new jobs were created here in the United States, which is impressive. The last six months of the Obama administration, 1 million job were also created. The argument you hear from a lot of Democrats is, this president inherited a very strong economy.

[13:30:07] MOORE: You know, he inherited an economy that was OK, but it wasn't great. You know, we had low growth. I mean if the economy had been as strong as --