Return to Transcripts main page

Wolf

North Korea on Sanctions; Russia's Meddling; Pence In 2020; Mueller Can Investigate Crimes he Uncovers; Mueller Probes Russia Financial Ties; No Discussions on Firing Mueller. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired August 07, 2017 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer. It's 1:00 p.m. here in Washington, 8:00 p.m. in Moscow, 1:00 a.m. Tuesday in Manila in the Philippines. Wherever you're watching from around the world, thanks very much for joining us.

President Trump marks his 200th day in office today, and he's taking direct aim at the news media and touting his base. But he's also facing major challenges here in the United States and indeed abroad.

The president is at his golf club in New Jersey and what the White House is calling a working vacation. He tweeted today that his base is bigger and stronger than ever, despite the news media.

Meanwhile, in Manila, secretary of state Rex Tillerson and the Russian foreign minister, Sergey Lavrov, faced off over new sanctions on Russia and the state of relations between the United States and Russia.

Back here in Washington, the deputy attorney general weighed in on the scope of the Russia investigation. Rod Rosenstein says independence counsel Robert Mueller can pursue any evidence of a crime that he uncovers.

And North Korea today threatened revenge against the United States over new it sanctions. The United Nations security council unanimously approved the sanctions in response to Pyongyang's ballistic missile tests.

North Korea today calling the sanctions an attack and warning the United States, and I'm quoting the North Korean state media right now, "against believing that its land is safe across the ocean."

This sanctions against Pyongyang dominated a number of discussions at the Asia regional security forum that's ongoing in the Philippines. Both the Russians and South Korean foreign ministers spoke with their North Korean counterpart, the North Korean foreign minister, at the meeting.

For more, let's go to our Senior International Correspondent Ivan Watson. He's on the scene for us, joining us live from manila.

Ivan, North Korea clearly not backing down in its public statements. So, what happens next with these latest sanctions?

IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the new sanctions, what they do is they ban the North Korean export of coal, of iron, and even of seafood. And, in theory, U.S. Diplomats say that that should cut up to one-third of North Korea's export revenues.

But U.S. secretary of state, Rex Tillerson, he conceded that it'll be now very important to see how that goes through in practice. Will this ban actually be implemented? Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REX TILLERSON, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: So, the next steps, obviously, are to see that the security council resolution sanctions are enforced by everyone.

And we hope, again, that this ultimately will result in North Korea coming to the conclusion to choose a different pathway. And when the conditions are right, that we can sit and have a dialogue around the future of North Korea.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WATSON: And when it comes to the conditions being right, another thing that Tillerson pointed out was, well, they've got to get some kind of a signal from Pyongyang that it's ready to sit down.

For instance, suspending the intercontinental ballistic missile launches. There were two of them just last month. He said that would be a positive sign, a signal that North Korea would be willing to sit down.

But from all the rhetoric we've seen from numerous different statements from Pyongyang today, Wolf, it does not look like the North Koreans are in the mood to talk -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right. Ivan, thanks very much. Ivan Watson reporting for us from Manila.

The White House says President Trump held an hour-long phone call this morning with the secretary of state, Rex Tillerson, and the new White House chief of staff, General -- retired General John Kelly. They discussed the situation involving North Korea.

Let's get some more perspective now. I'm joined by Balbina Hwang. She's a former senior adviser to U.S. Ambassador Christopher Hill. If you remember, Ambassador Hill was the head of the U.S. delegation to the six-party talks aimed at resolving the North Korea nuclear crisis. Also joining us, and retired Rear Admiral John Kirby. He's a former State Department and Pentagon spokesperson. Thanks to both of you for joining us.

Balbina, the North Korean regime, the foreign minister actually, who was at -- who was invited to attend this meeting with all these other Asian countries, including the United States. He actually met with the Russian and the South Korean foreign ministers which is significant.

He issued a statement saying this, the North Korean foreign minister. We will, under no circumstances, put the nukes and ballistic rockets on the negotiating table. Neither shall we flinch even an inch from the road to bolsters up the nuclear forces chosen by ourselves unless the hostile policy and nuclear threat of the United States against the DPRK, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, are fundamentally eliminated.

Is that just rhetoric or is there some significance here?

BALBINA HWANG, FORMER TO CHRISTOPHER HILL: Well, I think it's both. On one hand, we have to dismiss some of the most fiery parts of the rhetoric, because this is constant and North Korea likes to entertain the world actually with some flamboyant language.

[13:05:11] On the other hand, I think North Korea is setting the stage and is saying exactly what it is willing or not willing to do. And I think, in a way, it is -- it maximumizes its position and that's part of its negotiating strategy.

BLITZER: How significant is it, John, that the North Korean foreign minister was, A, invited? And, B, actually participated and had direct face-to-face meetings with the South Korean foreign minister and the Russian foreign minister among others?

RETIRED REAR ADMIRAL JOHN KIRBY, CNN: Not insignificant. I mean, ASEAN is not -- they're not a normal member of ASEAN. So, that they were there is unique. And I think, in a way, it's not all bad, right, that he had a chance to interact and to have dialogue with other members of the community.

BLITZER: What do you think, Balbina?

HWANG: Well, ARF, their ASEAN Regional Forum, is an annual event. So, I don't think it's necessarily that significant that North Korea was there. On the other hand, North Korea could have chosen not to come.

So, I think that it showed up and it's willing to, sort of, set its position which is much, much now further out in the field than the rest of the international community, is significant.

BLITZER: What is also significant is that the United Nations security council over the weekend unanimously, 15 to zero, passed a resolution imposing new sanctions against North Korea. Russia onboard, China onboard. Clearly the U.S. was -- the U.S. Ambassador, Nikki Haley, was thrilled.

KIRBY: Yes. Well, and they -- apparently this was an initiative that they put forward. I think it is significant. These are comprehensive sanctions. And the administration deserves credit for ushering them through.

But, look, we have to wait and see. Sanctions take a long, long time. And don't forget, Wolf, that in 2016, the Obama administration also ushered in very comprehensive, very strong, then the strongest sanctions ever, enacted against the north at the time. So, we'll have to see where this goes.

What it does show, though, is the international community further galvanizing against the threat posed by North Korea. And that Russia and China continue to be onboard, at least on paper, is a healthy thing. Now, we have to just -- implementation is the devil of detail there and you heard Tillerson talk about that.

BLITZER: It looks like -- Balbina, you know this a lot better than I do, the south -- the new South Korean government is certainly much more open than the Trump administration is to launching direct talks with North Korea trying to ease this crisis?

BALBINA: Well, I think we have to remember that the Moon administration in South Korea, he is ideologically part of the sunshine policy. He firmly believes that engagement it the only way to change the regime.

Now, President Trump, I don't think, is ideological. I think he is willing to negotiate. You know, he's a businessman and transactional. So, those two are not that far apart as people think but they are coming from very different places.

BLITZER: He tweeted, the president, President Trump, just completed a call with President Moon of South Korea. He's the newly elected South Korean leader. Very happy and impressed with 15 to zero United Nations vote on North Korea sanctions.

But there is a significant difference in strategy and tactics between the South Korean government and the U.S. government.

KIRBY: Yes, I mean, as Balbina rightly was says, President Moon Jae In, is of the sunshine policy, has a little bit different view, a softer view towards the north than his predecessor.

But I think, again, given the race that they -- that the north has been on here to develop these capabilities and the threats they continue to pose -- in fact, there are increased threats now I think you are starting to see, I think, a gelling, a coalescing of some international, including South Korean approach and pressure to put on the north.

Don't forget also that one of the things that the administration is doing right I think is trying to work trilateral cooperation between Japan and South Korea and the United States which has, historically, been difficult, given the history between South Korea and Japan. But that also is coming together.

BLITZER: The fact that Russia, but especially China, was onboard in this unanimous United Nations security council resolution, imposing new sanctions against North Korea, how significant is that?

BALBINA: Well, it is significant to the extent that finally I think the pressure is on China, actually, to do something more. But before we go around congratulating China as this incredible achievement, we have to remember, this is the minimum of what China should have been doing.

And we should also remember the numerous times that China would not support sanctions, and Russia by the way.

So, we already have 15 U.N. resolution sanctions on North Korea going back to -- actually 1993, but really 2006. Fifteen. And during that time, North Korea has tested five nuclear weapons.

So, China is doing the minimum, at this point, of what it should be doing.

BLITZER: Balbina Hwang, thanks for coming in. Appreciate it very much. John Kirby, you have to come, because you're a CNN Contributor.

Secretary of state, Rex Tillerson, and his Russian counterpart met in Manila for the first time since the U.S. slapped new sanctions on Russia. And Tillerson zeroed in on the reason for the sanctions, Russian meddling in the U.S. presidential election.

Our Global Affairs Correspondent Elise Labott is joining us right now. Elise, what else have we learned about Tillerson's meeting with the Russian foreign minister, Sergey Lavrov?

[13:10:04] ELISE LABOTT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, it seemed to be a very tense meeting. Not only were -- was Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov complaining about those sanctions, Secretary Tillerson also was, you know, seeking a little bit more clarification of that Russian move to cut 755 U.S. diplomats from the Russian -- the U.S. embassy in Russia.

And so, this whole issue of meddling, the Russian meddling in the U.S. election, continues to be the elephant in the room.

Take a listen to Secretary Tillerson earlier today in Manila.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TILLERSON: The Russia meddling in the elections was certainly a serious incident. We talked about it in the discussion we had with Minister Lavrov yesterday, and trying to help them understand just how serious this incident had been and how seriously it had damaged the relationship between the U.S., the American people and the Russian people. That this has created serious mistrust between our two countries and that we simply have to find some way to deal with that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LABOTT: So, a lot of mistrust but also a lot of critical national security issues among them, Syria which they talked about, Ukraine and North Korea which is why they're there in Manila in the first place.

But, Wolf, this issue of the meddling, the investigations here in Washington into possible collusion between Russia and the Trump campaign, continue to dog that relationship, and make making moving forward very difficult for these two leaders. BLITZER: Any indication that by September 1st when all those American diplomats and embassy personnel are about to be kicked out of Russia, that the U.S. will further retaliate. Because, as you know, at the end of the Obama administration, the U.S. expelled, what, about 34, 35 Russian diplomats, shut down two Russian compounds in Maryland and Long Island.

LABOTT: So, this is a tit for tat. As you said, the Obama administration made those moves. Remember, President Putin had held off and this is really a follow-on to that.

Secretary Tillerson said that they're considering a response. I think the question is whether they can, you know, let this stand and move forward. They've both said that they want to eliminate those irritants, as they say, in the relationship. They consider this one of them.

I think it remains to be seen what that U.S. response is going to be and whether that's going to continue to spiral.

BLITZER: Yes, the pressure on the Trump administration will be enormous. It's one thing to expel 34, 35 American diplomats from Russia. It's another thing for the Russians then to tell 755 American diplomats and other embassy personnel, you're out. That's a big, big number.

All right, Elise, thanks very much. Our Global Affairs Correspondent Elise Labott reporting.

Up next, as Tillerson meets with his Russian counterpart overseas, the investigation into possible collusion between the Trump campaign and the kremlin expands. We have new information.

And Mike Pence, the Vice President, is striking back. We got in a report in "The New York Times" that he is eyeing the Oval Office in 2020. The "Times" saying the vice president isn't alone. Details as what's being described as shadow campaigns that several Republicans are now running.

[13:13:38]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:17:26] WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: The investigation into Russia's meddling of the U.S. presidential election appears to be entering a new phase. A source tells CNN the special counsel, Robert Mueller, has issued grand jury subpoenas for documents and testimony related to Donald Trump Jr.'s meeting with a Russian lawyer last summer. The deputy attorney general was asked how far Mueller's investigation can go.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROD ROSENSTEIN, DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL: If he finds evidence of a crime that's within the scope of what Director Mueller and I have agreed is the appropriate scope of this investigation, then he can. If it's something outside that scope, he needs to come to the acting attorney general, at this time me, for permission to expand his investigation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Let's bring in our CNN crime and justice reporter, Shimon Prokupecz.

Shimon, update us on what we know right now about the various threads of Robert Mueller's investigation.

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, that's right, Wolf, there are several various threads, right? We have the obstruction of -- potential obstruction of justice thread. And then we have the overall big investigation, which now appears to be financial in nature in that Mueller and his team of 16 lawyers and close to three dozen staffers and investigators have been poring over all of these various financial records related to the Trump organization.

We're also told some of which -- some of the records that are being scrutinized have to deal with his son, Don Junior, and also other property records, such as Trump Tower in New York. They're looking at who has spent time there, who has rented offices there, has lived there. All of this part of their larger investigation into the relationship between Russia and folks close to Donald Trump.

And really the key here now is that they want to go back and -- you know, investigators want to go back and see, when were these relationships established and if that sort of has had any effect on some of the decision-making.

BLITZER: Yes. And Rod Rosenstein, the deputy attorney general, offering a very strong source of support for Robert Mueller, the special counsel, in that interview yesterday.

Shimon, thanks very much. Shimon Prokupecz reporting.

Let's get some further perspective on the Russia investigation. Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell of California is joining us. He's a member of both the House Intelligence and Judiciary Committees, joining us from Oakland, California.

Thanks, congressman, for joining us.

REP. ERIC SWALWELL (D), CALIFORNIA: Of course, Wolf. Thanks for having me back.

BLITZER: So what's your reaction to the Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein's comment that the special counsel, Robert Mueller, can investigate basically any crime he seems to uncover in the course of his work?

[13:20:00] SWALWELL: Well, it makes sense, Wolf, because we know that the ties that Donald Trump, his family, his campaign have to Russia are very, very financial in nature. We know that Donald Trump has invested in the Russians over the years and that they have invested in him. He sought trademarks that he was granted over in Russia. He had the Miss Universe contest over in Russia. He sought to peddle Trump vodka over in Russia. And Russians have bought condos in his buildings in New York and it was a Russian oligarch who purchased a West Palm Beach home that Donald Trump had bought in 2004 and later sold in 2008 to that individual, reaping a profit of 129 percent. It's certainly worth exploring further.

BLITZER: CNN has learned, congressman, that Robert Mueller has expanded his investigation to include that actual money trail. He's following the money, as they say. So, specifically, you mentioned a couple of examples. What does that suggest to you? What if he follows the money and comes up with something that has absolutely no connection to the allegation of Russian/Trump campaign collusion?

SWALWELL: Well, the premise of the collusion, or at least the premise of the ties that many have alleged occurred between Donald Trump and Russia has been that Russia sought to influence members of Donald Trump's campaign and perhaps the president himself. And one of the ways that Russia has done this with other individuals in the United States, as James Comey testified on March 20, is by entangling them in financial relationships, or preying on financial distress.

Now, there's also a -- in law, Wolf, there is a concept called plain view. So if the police go to a building and they're looking for a gambling ring and they happen to walk upon a meth lab, they don't have to look the other way. They can actually explore that as long as they are lawfully in the building. So if they are lawfully looking for coordination with Russians and they come across other crimes that may have been committed, they don't have to look the other way.

BLITZER: Well, you've heard the president, he calls this whole Russia probe a witch hunt, a hoax. And he goes specifically one step further saying the probing his finances or those of his family members and associates, that simply goes way too far, crosses that red line. Your reaction?

SWALWELL: Well, good thing he doesn't get to set the red lines here, Wolf. Congress also has a role to play. And the Senate, in a bipartisan way last week showed that they intend to put guardrails in place if he tries to get rid of Bob Mueller. So I'm satisfied that leaders in Congress will assert our coequal jurisdiction to make sure that this investigation is able to fairly run its course.

BLITZER: If you have great confidence in Robert Mueller, and I assume you do, why do you still want and independent commission, a separate new commission, to be set up to investigate Russian meddling in the U.S. election?

SWALWELL: Bob Mueller's role is to understand whether any crimes were committed. Our role in Congress, and I believe the September 11 Commission, what they did so well was that they were able to look outside of the crimes, but at how we can make sure this never happens again. So after September 11th, a bipartisan appointed independent panel of commissioners, who had foreign policy and national security expertise, looked at our vulnerabilities and then made recommendations for Congress to put in place, how we can make sure that a vulnerability like that never happened again.

Here, in Congress, I see that this has become too politicized and also we just don't have the time to devote ourselves to understanding just exactly what Russia did. And, you know, it's certainly important, but there's other duties in Congress. And so I think the best thing we can do to depoliticize it, to debunk a lot of the myths the president has put out there and declassify as much of the facts as possible for the public is to have a full-time commission look at what Russia did and then have us go to work to make sure the ballot box is more secure next time.

BLITZER: As you know in recent days there's been a bipartisan push amongst some senators to actually bar the president from directly firing the special counsel, Robert Mueller. The White House counselor, Kellyanne Conway, says that's not even on the president's radar. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does the president commit to not firing Robert Mueller?

KELLYANNE CONWAY, WHITE HOUSE COUNSELOR: The president has not even discussed that. The president is not discussing firing Bob Mueller.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right, so what's your reaction to Conway's statement?

SWALWELL: Well, the president has a past history of trying to intimidate individuals by kind of floating out ideas. We saw this with the suggestion that President Obama had wiretapped Trump Tower. He said that James Comey better hope there aren't tapes, which I believe was a way to try to intimidate the former FBI director from coming forward and testifying. And I think by trying to undermine Bob Mueller's investigation, he is trying to make Bob Mueller worry that he may be fired or try and do everything he can to undermine and, I guess, you know, cast doubt upon anything that Bob Mueller finds.

You know, I think the American people are behind Bob Mueller and they will probably accept whatever he finds or doesn't find.

[13:25:02] BLITZER: So where do you see this heading in the short term? Are we close to getting some answers?

SWALWELL: On our House investigation, we made more progress in the last three weeks with the witnesses we've brought in than we had made in the prior five months. So we're steadily going forward. We're a interviewing witnesses, reviewing documents. We hope to report back to the American people soon. And we just want to make sure that Bob Mueller has all the resources and all the runway necessary to also, you know, report back to the American people and clear the president, if these were all just coincidences, but to hold people accountable if it was something more.

BLITZER: What's the definition of "soon"? SWALWELL: Well, I hope before the midterm elections, Wolf, for the

House investigation, because we want to make sure when people go to the ballot box in November, that we have put some reforms in place so that not only Russia is deterred from doing this again, but other countries with similar capabilities.

BLITZER: Those midterm elections are still a long way off.

All right, Congressman Eric Swalwell, thanks so much for joining us.

SWALWELL: Yes. My pleasure, Wolf.

BLITZER: Coming up, Pence for 2020? The vice president says that idea is absurd, it's offensive. We have details on that new report that he along with other prominent Republicans are already positioning themselves for a presidential run.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)