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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield
Penn State Hazing Death; Groping Trial Day Four; Dramatic Video Released; CNN Heroes. Aired 8:30-9p ET
Aired August 10, 2017 - 20:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID BERKOWITZ, SON OF SAM: I have accepted responsibility for what has happened.
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HOST (voice-over): It was the summer of Sam.
BERKOWITZ: It was a time of torment.
BANFIELD: A serial killer terrorizing New York City, targeting brunettes and couples in the darkness of night.
BERKOWITZ: It was the biggest lie.
BANFIELD: Now, for the first time in more than a decade, the Son of Sam speaks, breaking his silence to CBS.
BERKOWITZ: That was not me. That was not me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They had a night set up for him that was called a gauntlet.
BANFIELD: A Penn State pledge dies after hazing, and now revelations someone deleted the tape where it happened.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fed him lethal doses of alcohol, and they killed him.
BANFIELD: Cops say it was one of the frat brothers charged in the crime.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And they waited over 40 minutes before they called for help.
BANFIELD: Now 18 men charged in Timothy Piazza`s death could be in even more trouble.
Pop superstar Taylor Swift singing a very serious tune, on the stand with her side of the story, saying a DJ reached up her dress during a photo
shoot. He says that`s not what happened. She says it was horrifying and shocking.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) she`s standing up for herself.
BANFIELD: Heartbreaking bodycam video.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop the gun, man!
BANFIELD: Cops begging a 16-year-old boy to drop his gun.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dude, drop it! Drop the gun!
BANFIELD: Over and over they plead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop the gun, man!
BANFIELD: Even as he walks towards them, refusing their commands.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dude, drop the gun, man! Come on!
BANFIELD: Until the moment he raised the weapon at them.
Britney Spears in Vegas gets the scare of her life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`ll be OK?
BANFIELD: When a man rushes the stage during her "Piece of Me" show.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God.
BANFIELD: Interested in buying the most famous white Bronco in history? O.J.`s slow-speed ride is going on the block on a reality show, no less.
And convicted killer and music mogul Phil Spector is rocking a brand-new look in prison. And if you think his past hairstyles are crazy, wait until
you see his newest jailhouse mug.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BANFIELD: Good evening, everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. This is PRIMETIME JUSTICE.
There are a lot of boogeymen out there, serial killers who over the years have preyed on the less fortunate, prostitutes, women home alone or even on
people who they just assumed nobody would miss. The Son of Sam was no different. He was the monster behind the legendary summer of Sam, an era
in New York City where the people were virtually under siege.
David Berkowitz targeted strangers. Often, they were couples in parked cars, the women usually with shoulder-length dark brown hair. The New York
papers dubbed him the ".44-caliber killer."
But after committing one of his murders, Berkowitz left a letter behind at the scene of the crime, and he signed it "the Son of Sam." During his
violent rampage that spanned 1976 and 1977, Berkowitz shot six people dead. He wounded seven other people. His serial killings launched the biggest
police manhunt in the history of New York City.
And now 40 years to the day that he was captured, we are hearing from the Son of Sam. Here`s what he looked like back then, and here`s what he looks
like now. And in a new CBS special, "Son of Sam: The Killer Speaks," Berkowitz gave his first interview in more than a decade.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you had it to do all over again, what would you change?
BERKOWITZ: Those terrible things that happened would have never happened. That was just a break from reality. I thought I was doing something to
appease the devil. I`m sorry for it. But I really don`t want to talk about it anymore (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Appease the devil?
BERKOWITZ: Well, I was -- at this time, I had -- was serving him. I feel that he had taken over my mind and body, and I just surrendered to those
very dark forces. I regret that with all my heart, but you know, that was, like, 40 years ago. I felt that there were demons (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But you`re the sole person who pulled the trigger, correct?
BERKOWITZ: Well, a lot of things happened in that case, but I take responsibility, you know, and (INAUDIBLE)
[20:05:04]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You take responsibility for all the Son of Sam murders?
BERKOWITZ: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was nobody else involved?
BERKOWITZ: Let`s put it this way. There were demons. And that was it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Leaving the door open or is it...
BERKOWITZ: Well, one day, maybe, I`ll have a chance to share more. But that`s -- that`s -- we`ll leave that at that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Joining me now, CNN legal analyst Paul Callan. He was a member of the Berkowitz prosecution team back in `78. And Mary Murphy is an
investigative reporter with WPIX. She`s interviewed David Berkowitz and several of his victims, and she joins me on the phone live here in New York
City.
Paul Callan, first to you. You prosecuted him, and now you hear him say, It was me but it wasn`t me? What are your thoughts when you see this?
PAUL CALLAN, BERKOWITZ PROSECUTION TEAM, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it`s a chilling feeling when I see him because I was on the prosecution team back
when I was 27 years old and in the homicide bureau of the Brooklyn district attorney`s office. And they sent me to Houston to track down the .44-
caliber gun, Bulldog revolver that he used in all of the New York killings.
And to see that he`s still alive and well and in prison and continuing to deny some of the aspects of the killing -- I wasn`t clear there as to
whether he`s saying, I didn`t do it as a person, but I was taken over by spirits of some kind.
Remember, Son of Sam, the name was derived from a dog. He claimed that he was getting the orders to murder from a dog and he was following those
orders.
BANFIELD: And the dog lived next door. And the "Sam" was actually the dog`s owner, his next-door neighbor.
CALLAN: Yes. I remember it well because believe if not, after he was arrested, lots of Brooklynites started showing up with their dogs saying
that this was Sam that had given -- that`s how crazy people are. But the city was so terrified by this series of killings (INAUDIBLE)
BANFIELD: Yes, I was somewhere around 10 years old living in Canada, and I remember this story. So it had such reach. I think it became an American
saga, as well.
Mary Murphy, you were actually living through this at the time. And is it true you really -- you feared this hairstyle that so many women in the city
feared. You feared the shoulder-length brunettes who were being targeted and changed your appearance at the time?
MARY MURPHY, WPIX (via telephone): Yes, that`s true. I was 17 when the shootings started, and one of them was only six blocks from where I lived.
At that time, in November of 1976, we didn`t realize that a serial killer was on the loose. It was only in March of 1977 that the NYPD and then
Mayor Abe Beame announced that the same gun had been used in the first five shootings, the first shooting in the Bronx and the following four were in
Queens.
So at this point, I started getting nervous. So did many, many other teenagers, worried parents telling their girls if they had shoulder-length
dark hair, pin it back, put it in a bun, put it in a ponytail. And I did just that.
BANFIELD: And now -- you know, you grew up from this 16, 17-year-old teenager who lived the fear to be the reporter. And you`re now actually
writing an extensive retrospective on this. Part of that, I`m assuming, has to do with your interaction with him in prison because you`ve
interviewed him. Tell me about it. Tell me about him.
MURPHY: Yes. Around the time of the tenth anniversary, I went to the prison that he was in at the time. I believe it was Sullivan Correctional.
And I was trying to get an interview for television. But at that point, he really had not done any TV, and he was kind of cagey. I think around that
time, he was undergoing this conversion to Christianity.
But in the `90s, WPIX did present a lengthy documentary, and we had Berkowitz featured in the documentary. He spoke at length to journalist
Maury Terry. And I did many stories with the victims and the parents of those who were killed.
And at that time, he was saying that there were other people involved that wanted to create chaos in the city of New York. He would not specify their
names. But Maury Terry had written a book called "The Ultimate Evil," and he did name names. And two of the people named lived in Yonkers near
Berkowitz, and in fact, were connected to the man who owned the dog.
BANFIELD: Well, it seems like now he`s, you know, fully owning what he did except for the fact that he`s blaming his mental illness and saying it was
another person, it was another evil spirit that had taken over, you know, my soul and made me do this.
I want to play something else from Maurice Dubois`s (ph) interview with the Son of Sam. And this has to do with the length of time, on the 40-year
anniversary, the length of time he has spent behind bars. Have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BERKOWITZ: I`ve been locked up since the time of my arrest, just under 40 years.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You just turned 64.
BERKOWITZ: Yes, I just turned 64, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What would you tell 23-year-old David Berkowitz today?
BERKOWITZ: Turn around before it`s too late because destruction is coming, you know? As far as I`m concerned, that was not me. That was not me.
Even that name -- I hate that name. I despise that name.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Which name?
BERKOWITZ: That moniker Son of Sam. That was a demon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:10:04]BANFIELD: One of his victims was Robert Violante. And he`s also featured in the CBS special airing tomorrow night. He was in a 1968 Buick
Skylark. He was one of those couples in a parked car. And the girl with him was Stacey Moskowitz (ph). She was also 19 years old. Robert was 20.
Sadly, Stacey did not survive, but Robert did. And he was interviewed about the whole notion of the Son of Sam speaking out. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT VIOLANTE, SURVIVOR: Oh, my God. Oh, my God, you`ve been shot. We`ve been shot. I should have been dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you remember from the shooting itself?
VIOLANTE: The bullet totally destroyed the left eye and most of my right eye. Where the bullet struck me right in the head, I never felt anything.
It just hit me directly in the head and traveled across to the right side of my head.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: So Paul Callan, he`s not a stranger to you. It is often the case with serial killers, we don`t get survivors. We don`t get seven
people who survived his gunshots to come and testify. How many of them could actually say they saw him, point to him and say, It was that man, it
that postal carrier who did it? How many could actually help you solve this?
CALLAN: Well, in truth, we never reached that issue because he was examined by psychiatrists to determine his competency for trial. And he
surprised everyone. On the day that he was found competent to stand trial, he plead guilty to all charges. And he really wanted to go to prison for
the rest of his life.
BANFIELD: So you never actually even had to have a witness look at a photo and say Yes, that`s the guy?
CALLAN: Well, there was lot of that going on. I, for instance, was sent to Houston to track down the .44-caliber Bulldog revolver where he had
bought it. And he had gotten it from a guy named Billy Dan Parker (ph) that he had served in Korea with. And he showed up at Parker`s house.
And back in those days, like today in Texas, all you had to do was walk in, show a driver`s license, you could buy a weapon. So he convinced Billy Dan
Parker to buy the Bulldog revolver. And two days later, the killings started in New York.
BANFIELD: I look at these pictures, and I don`t know what it is about retrospectives on huge American crime sagas that get a new development, you
know, today, ala O.j. getting, you know, a parole, you know, thumbs up, and all of the 20-year-old video. You see this stuff, 40 years old, and it`s
almost as though the sands of time have actually yellowed the film from those newscasts.
I want to play, if I can, a 1977 sound bite from the guy who was actually the head of the detectives. Do you remember John Keenan (ph)?
CALLAN: Sure.
BANFIELD: So the head of the NYPD detectives actually talked to the press about the arrest of the Son of Sam. Have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He came out of his house, got into his car, started the motor. And the detectives stopped him, put him under arrest, gave him his
warnings, handcuffed him.
QUESTION: Did he say anything?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think I`m not allowed to comment on that. They saw the car. And in the car, they saw the butt of a machine gun and a letter -
- an envelope, rather, on the seat which had the identical printing as the envelope -- as the letters that (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Does that bring back some memories?
CALLAN: Oh, boy, does it ever. And you know, the biggest memory for me is that back in `77, of course, there was a lot of crime in New York City. It
was kind of a dangerous city, not like it is today, relatively safe. Most of America would be hard pressed to believe that. But we didn`t cover
serial killers around America. Crime was local. You`d find out what happened in your city or town.
But when the Son of Sam killings started, because New York was sort of the media center, it became a nationwide covered case. And I think that was
the beginning of the coverage of serial killers across America. This is really the starting point.
BANFIELD: So just so that anybody who`s, you know, under the age of I guess I got to say 50 now at this point watching, wants to me what it felt
like for the -- mostly the women of the city, I think, who feared so much having the brunette hairstyle, shorter-length brunette hair, but also the
couples who said, We wouldn`t go out at night anymore. We were terrified.
The city, truly, you talk to anybody over the age of 45, 50 years old, and they`ll say they remember their sister or even themselves, as Mary has just
said.
I want to play for you some of those comments from the people who lived through this, from back then in the late `70s and what it was like for
them. Have a look at this historic reel.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you feel personally threatened by the .44-caliber killer because you have long dark hair?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Has his existence in any way interfered with your movements at night?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I stay in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn`t stay in in the past?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. I don`t feel free to go out, to walk the streets or go out at all.
[20:15:02]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m afraid. I`m afraid to go out in the car. I`m afraid to do anything. You don`t know where he`s going to be.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever think of cutting your hair because of him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I never thought of going to that extent. I just don`t want to be recognized. I thought of maybe dyeing it a little redder
or something.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We used to stay in front of my house and talk, you know, and kiss good night, but we can`t do that no more. Just go right in.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You have to be careful. You have to watch where you go now and how late you stay out and...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you restricted your own movements?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t go out as much as you used to?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. And I`m always with somebody, you know, that, you know, I know I`m going to be taken right home or whatever, you know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What about your friends? Are they doing the same thing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Even when they don`t have long hair, you know, same thing. Scares you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Mary, I`m thinking of you. You said you wore a bun. But I know for a fact the number of news reels that I saw where young women went out
and bought blond wigs. And everyone was walking around the city wearing a blond wig. Do you remember that?
MURPHY: I do remember it. I have to tell you, I didn`t dye my hair, but I sometimes joked that I had a good excuse for running into my house if I
went out on a date. I wouldn`t stay in the car. And if I was an uptight teenager who wasn`t quite sure that she was into the guy that she was going
out with, I would have a good excuse to get out and get in the house. I was very, very nervous and anxious about the climate of the time.
And there were, like, 300 detectives on the task force that were hunting for Son of Sam. And I know that as it got close to the first anniversary
of the first shooting in late July 1977, they would have cops at the bridges between Queens and the Bronx because almost all the shootings, the
first seven were either in the Bronx or Queens. And then, of course, he fooled us with the last one in Brooklyn on July 31st, 1977.
BANFIELD: Yes, Queens, Brooklyn and the Bronx, Mary. Real quickly, Paul, you put him away. Do you have anything you want the say to him that he`s
now speaking to Maurice Dubois (ph) and giving you these sort of insights. Do you know what you want to say to him?
CALLAN: Oh, I -- you know, I just hope he stays where he is forever more. I mean, believe it or not, he`s come up for parole several times. You
know, back in those years, the maximum sentence in New York was 25 to life. And you`re parole-eligible after serving 25 years.
BANFIELD: He`ll never get it.
CALLAN: No. He`ll never get out, but he`s appeared actually before the parole board and asked to remain in.
BANFIELD: Do you show up?
CALLAN: No, I`ve never shown up. But I`ve always followed it and have always been amazed that he`s done that. You know, he turned to -- he
became an evangelist, I think, and he...
BANFIELD: Everybody finds God in prison.
CALLAN: I had a couple of...
BANFIELD: Not much else to do.
CALLAN: I had a couple of clients in adjacent cells over the years who said that he tried to convert them when they were next to him, so...
BANFIELD: Well, at least he found God, and not anything else in those cells next door.
Paul Callan, thank you. And by the way, lovely surprise to find this out about you as I`ve known you now for a half a decade!
CALLAN: (INAUDIBLE) like that.
BANFIELD: And Mary, thank you very much for sharing your perspectives on this. I also didn`t know about your background. So I`m looking forward to
your book.
MURPHY: Oh. Actually, I haven`t started writing a book yet. But at some point, I will.
BANFIELD: The retro (ph). Well, you got to do it and you got to call me first. Mary Murphy, thank you, and Paul Callan.
Some bombshell allegations today in the Penn State fraternity hazing death. The prosecutors say that hours of surveillance video from the night of
Timothy Piazza`s death are somehow missing, and someone says they were intentionally deleted.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:22:40]BANFIELD: Did members of a Penn State fraternity deliberately erase a videotape that just might be the key to solving the tragic death of
one of its pledges? And if so, might that videotape have also been the key to the case against 18 members of that frat house who are now charged in
Timothy Piazza`s hazing death?
There was some pretty alarming evidence that was unleashed during some preliminary hearings today. And if you don`t know this story, it`s
sickening. Timothy died two days after a liquor-fueled party in which he tumbled down two flights of stairs at the beta theta phi house.
Investigators say the fraternity brothers failed to help him for upwards of 12 hours while he was dying. And they say it was instead that time they
used to cover up the hazing and coordinate a story.
Eighteen members of that university fraternity were arrested on charges ranging from tampering with evidence all the way to involuntary
manslaughter. And the thing is, their actions were actually recorded. The fraternity has video surveillance cameras, and the prosecutors played them
during the preliminary hearings. But not the one from the basement. That`s weird. It seems the authorities were told that that camera wasn`t
working, that is until the authorities were un-told that story.
CNN`s Sara Ganim describes what she saw in some of those videos.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARA GANIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You see the pledges, including Tim Piazza, lined up in khaki pants and button-down shirts. And they`re standing hand
to shoulder in a line. In this ritual, the point is almost like an obstacle course, an alcohol obstacle course. He starts by chugging a
handle of vodka. Then he goes to the next station and chugs a beer, and then to the next station, where he chugs wine.
And about an hour-and-a-half after this gauntlet begins, a brother walks Tim Piazza through the lobby of the house, and you can already see that he
is staggering.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: But that`s not all. Today, this other shocker, the lead detective in the case revealing it appears that one of the frat members
who`s been charged actually admitted to deleting key parts of the video from the basement. And the basement is where Timothy fell and suffered for
hours.
[20:25:06]CNN correspondent Sara Ganim has been in court all week, and she saw the surveillance video when it was played yesterday. So this is an
astounding development. If it`s true that one of the kids who was actually sitting in court today deleted that basement video, do they have the
information from this young man as to what was on it?
GANIM: Well, I don`t think prosecutors are quite there yet. What prosecutors said today in court is that they no longer believe that the
camera wasn`t working. They believe that the video from that basement camera may have been deleted.
BANFIELD: And that`s the story they originally got, that camera in the basement wasn`t working. Sorry, there`s no video.
GANIM: Originally, when the police went to go get the video, days after Tim Piazza`s death, all they could retrieve was the video from the first
floor. They couldn`t get the video off the system from the basement. But what they said in the original hearing, the first day of the hearing, which
was several weeks ago -- they said they couldn`t retrieve the basement video because it wasn`t working.
Today, the prosecutor said it appears it had been deleted. That is now their working theory. And she said that charges are imminent because of
that, but would not say who may be charged, and nothing formally has been filed.
BANFIELD: So let my bring in Mark Rasch because he`s a digital forensics expert. He`s also former Department of Justice cyber crimes prosecutor.
He joins me now live from Washington.
Mark, you`re the perfect person to ask the two critical questions here. Number one, I hear of stuff that`s deleted all the time, but people like
you can recover it. Can they do that? And number two, if they do, what kind of charges might these young men and the actual frat itself face if
they actually did delete it?
MARK RASCH, DIGITAL FORENSICS EXPERT: So as to the first question, whether or not they can restore what might have been on the videotape or on the
recording, the answer is, of course, it depends. It depends on the technology that was used to record it and the method that was used to
erase, delete or get rid of it. Obviously, if somebody took a physical videotape and burned it or destroyed it, then you`re not going to be able
to recover it.
Most modern recording machines record either to a hard drive or what`s called a solid state drive. And on those kinds of things, when you delete
it, it`s just like deleting e-mail. There`s always a potential to be able to recover that data.
And since they took custody -- the police took custody of the house and any recordings that might have been in it within a couple of days, the odds are
that it wasn`t overwritten, like, you know, you have a continuous loop. So there`s I`d say about maybe a 20 percent chance if they can find the medium
that they`ll be able to restore the data.
BANFIELD: You`re saying a 20 percent chance that we will actually end up getting that video into this case.
RASCH: If they were able -- if they were -- if the people took the hard drive out and threw it away, then unless they tell them where that hard
drive is, they`re never going to get the tape. But if they can get...
BANFIELD: Well, the guy -- Mark, the guy who was sitting in court, the detective, from the stand, said, I`m not going to, you know, say who it is,
but he`s in this courtroom right now. Apparently, he`s squealing like a canary because he told them he did it. So you would assume that he would
have told them how he did it or where he put it, right?
RASCH: Well, if he knows. If he threw it in the trash bin and it`s gone, it`s gone. So it won`t be able to be recovered. But if they can actually
physically get that drive, the odds are pretty good that they`ll be able to recover some -- maybe not all, but some of the information on that tape.
Now, as to the charges that can be charged, there`s a lot of things could go on here. I mean, the first problem is somebody lied to the police.
Somebody told them, Oh, there was no tape. It was destroyed. And it`s probably the person who destroyed it, and maybe others. So you have false
statements to the police, which is one charge.
Then you have obstruction of justice, which is another charge. Third is evidence tampering, which is another charge. And then there are charges
related to whatever you can see on the video, if they can get it back, which are potentially manslaughter charges, reckless endangerment charges,
and maybe even murder.
BANFIELD: Well, you know what? You nailed it because they`re definitely charged with all of those things. Manslaughter, though, involuntary
manslaughter is the highest charge which carries with it about five years.
Let me bring in Joey Jackson on this one, too, HLN and CNN legal analyst on this because, Joey, if what Mark is saying is that they can get these guys
-- and there`s a lot of ifs here.
JOEY JACKSON, CNN/HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Of course.
BANFIELD: If they can get the hard drive, if, if, if, if, if. Obstruction and lying are not small change.
JACKSON: No, they`re not at all. And you know, it`s interesting because this speaks to the broader narrative, obviously, of fraternities in
general, the culture of fraternities. And here you`re setting an example and you`re going after them.
And what else is interesting is whenever a prosecutor starts on one path, you always know when the investigation broadens and they uncover other
things, like here, initially believing that this tape was unavailable, now believing that it`s deleted.
But whenever you do something like that, you get to the issues of tampering with evidence which is criminal because it impedes and otherwise prevents
investigators to do their job. And so I think there`s a long way to go. Of course, we`re in a preliminary hearing, and we should remind viewers, of
course, Ashleigh, that preliminary hearing is not to determine guilt or innocence --
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, PRIMETIME JUSTICE SHOW HOST: Yes.
JACKSON: -- but just whether there is enough evidence to move forward, and therefore you don`t have to prove anything beyond reasonable doubt.
BANFIELD: Let`s call no brainer in this one if you look at the stuff just we have.
JACKSON: Absolutely.
BANFIELD: Sara, you interviewed Jim and Evelyn Piazza. That`s Timothy`s mom and dad. Jim said something that was, you know, first of all, as any parent
who sends their kid off to college, and you hear that kids were stepping over your son as he was passed out for hour after hour after hour, and
going and getting a glass of water, having a drink, taking a look at him and keep on going, you hear those, and you want to be sick.
How they kept their composure during this interview, I don`t know, but I do want to play a little snippet of what Jim said to you regarding what he
thinks about the culture and the folks in that house. Have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM PIAZZA, FATHER OF TIMOTHY PIAZZA: There were people in that house that knew he was dying. And when they knew that death was imminent the next
morning, they waited 42 minutes to call for help while they told people to clean up, cover up the evidence, get rid of it.
This wasn`t boys being boys. This was criminal activity. This was an alcohol-free, hazing-free fraternity with an adult, athletic trainer living
in the house. But there were years of parties documented on the tapes. Nobody paid attention to anything. I blame all of them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: That will be, you know, for the court to determine ultimately. But more importantly, how are they?
SARA GANIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, obviously, they`re struggling. This is not something that`s been easy for them, but they have made a point
to be in the courtroom for each of the days of this preliminary hearing, even though it`s been strung out over several weeks.
This was day four. Tomorrow is day five. They`ve been there every day, but I will tell you, they never want to see the surveillance tape ever. They
made that point. They are very clear. That`s why prosecutors haven`t entered into it into public record.
That`s why we haven`t seen it publicly, why it hasn`t been released to the public. They leave the courtroom when it plays. They never want to see it
because, Ashleigh, I`ve seen it. What you`re watching is Tim Piazza dying. You`re watching him overnight struggling as his body shuts down.
BANFIELD: You know this feeling, how you just have no control over them there.
JACKSON: It`s amazing, and that`s how it hits you. You know, it`s hit obviously. You know, I`m here to talk about it from a legal perspective.
But from a person perspective and not only that, but to hear them talk about these frat parties, which is why when you asked me the legal
question, we`ll talk about Penn, but it speaks to the larger narrative of colleges all over the country and what this prosecution may do to deter
others from engaging in behavior like that.
BANFIELD: Talk. Talk to your kids.
JACKSON: Yes.
BANFIELD: Please talk to your kids about this story. Sara, you have done great reporting on it. You`ve done so much great reporting on it. It`s just
so critical for young people to know how quickly their lives can go south and how quickly someone can lose a life. It is critical. Thank you not only
to Sara and Joey, but also to Mark Rash (ph) for his perspective on this as well.
Another story we`re covering. If you know Taylor Swift`s music, you know that she is not afraid to call out people who do her wrong. So it certainly
comes as no surprise that she didn`t hold back anything when she got on the stand today and described in pretty stark terms the groping she alleges by
a Denver DJ.
[20:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: Taylor Swift speaks her mind when it comes to songs. She certainly doesn`t sugarcoat how she feels about former boyfriends or life
in general. It seems when she takes the stand at trial, she doesn`t mince any words either. Taylor sat on the witness stand today testifying about
this photo.
Take a good look at where that guy`s hand is. She claims that former radio DJ intentionally groped her behind. That DJ, David Mueller, not only denies
that he inappropriately touched her, he is suing her because he says she ruined his career and got him fired.
The pop star is steadfast it happened, and after using some pretty salty language, she told his lawyer in court today, and I will quote Ms. Swift,
what Mr. Mueller did was very intentional. I am critical of your client for sticking his hand under my skirt and grabbing my ass, unquote. Despite her
stark term, Taylor Swift`s fans are supporting her outside the courthouse every day in Denver.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDIE RODRIGUEZ, FAN OF TAYLOR SWIFT: Well, I believe her. Something happened, you know. And somebody`s not telling the truth here. So I think
that it`s very brave of her to do what she is doing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:40:00] BANFIELD: CNN correspondent, Scott McLean, is in the courtroom today when Taylor Swift took the stand. He joins me from outside of the
courthouse in Denver. Scott, we don`t have cameras. So you are going to have to be our eyes and ears as to what her demeanor was like on the stand.
Was she angry? Was she rude? She used that, you know, profanity four different times in front of a judge and jury, prosecutor and defense. Tell
me a little bit about Taylor on the stand.
SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN DENVER CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Ashleigh. One of her younger friends (ph) said that Taylor Swift was a little bit (INAUDIBLE), but just
the right amount, meaning she had a bit of attitude on the stand. I think most people who saw her today would say that she was undeniably confident.
She was assertive and at times she was combative. You heard her there. You quoted her there saying several times that David Mueller grabbed my ass.
She also told the attorney directly that she is not going sit here and allow him to make her feel like it`s her fault because it isn`t. That`s
what she said.
She also accused David Mueller of looking drunk along with his then girlfriend, Shannon Melcher, the woman who appears in the photo alongside
the two. And she was pressed on that photograph. Mueller`s side says that look, because her skirt is in place at the front, there is no way that
David Mueller could have his hand up at the back.
Taylor Swift shot back quite quickly and said look, the skirt is in place at the front because my ass is on the back side of my body. And Mueller`s
lawyer also challenged her on the positioning of the security guard, her bodyguard, who claims to have seen it. And also on why he did nothing. He
didn`t call the police.
He didn`t alert Taylor Swift to what had happened. He didn`t alert anybody else, tell anyone to stop David Mueller from leaving. He didn`t say
anything to David Mueller. And the lawyer press her on why that was acceptable to her. She said look, I`m not going to blame my security detail
for something that David Mueller did.
BANFIELD: All right. So let`s put that picture up again because there is a lot of body language that people have been talking about incessantly during
this trial. Taylor Swift is arched over towards Mueller`s girlfriend and seemingly arched away from him.
Can you just give me 10 seconds on whether that made it on to the stand and whether she says, you know, I didn`t want to be near him. I felt this and I
moved away. How did she characterize where she is positioned in the picture?
MCLEAN: Sure. So to be clear, Ashleigh, David Mueller says that he sort of jumped in the photograph last minute and that`s why he is away from her.
Taylor Swift said that`s not true. I started in the middle. When he grabbed my backside, I lurched over, and he continued to hold on.
She said that photo indicates what is happening there. And the lawyer, her own lawyer, showed several other pictures from court that didn`t show a gap
there. That seemed to be the only one.
BANFIELD: Joey Jackson, real quickly, I can see both stories in that photo, but, you know, I`m me and there is lots of mes on the jury.
JACKSON: A 100 percent. You know what happens, Ashleigh, is that there`s an interpretation. So if you`re on the Taylor Swift side, you can make a
number of arguments. One of which is A, the camera didn`t necessarily snap at the instant that he had his hand where it was. B, you heard the mother
classify the dress is one which would not otherwise go up.
BANFIELD: That`s crap. I wear skirts all the time, the back can go up, the front will stay down. Let`s just dispose of that right now.
JACKSON: The other issue on the other side, though, you make the other argument that you can`t actually see where his hand is. And as a result of
that, he is saying it was on her rib. Therefore, it was the rib. That`s the narrative.
BANFIELD: It`s he said, she said for now. But this is America`s sweetheart using ass four times in front of the steamed courtroom which I don`t love.
It is what it is. Thank you for that. Thank you, Scott.
Troubled 16-year-old teenager shot and killed by Arkansas police. But it is not the type of officer-involved shooting that we`ve seen so many of in
recent years.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on, drop the gun, man. I`m here to help you, dude. I`m your friend, man. If I wasn`t your friend, I wouldn`t have talked to
you last time. Whatever you`ve got going with your family, man, we`re here to help you, dude.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: For police officers, they often have to make life or death decisions in what seems to be like a blink of an eye, whether it`s pulling
out a weapon like a stun gun or a taser or even their service revolvers. They pretty much have to assess the situation quickly and they often have
to react with deadly force.
And in Arkansas, that`s exactly what the situation was for two officers near Memphis two weeks ago. They responded to a call about a 16-year-old
kid who was trying to return to a youth center. And everything seemed innocent in the beginning until the officer notices what the teenager has
in his hand.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who`s out there? Where have you been? Where have you been? Gun. Got a gun, got a gun. Drop the gun! Man, drop, come on, drop the
gun.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: What happens for the next 10 minutes might actually surprise you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, man, I`m your buddy, I`ve talked to you before. I got one at gunpoint. Hold a gun. Come on, drop the gun. I`ve talked to you
before, dude. Come on, man. I`ve talked to you over there a couple of weeks ago, man. Just drop the gun for me. I`m here to help you. We ain`t taking
you to jail. Come on, man. I`m your buddy, dude. Come on. Come on, man. I`m your buddy. We`re here to help you, man.
Whatever you`ve got going on, we`re here to help you. Right? I talked to you before. I tried to help you out. That`s all we want to do is help you,
man. Come on, drop the gun, man. I`m here to help you, dude. I`m your friend, man.
[20:50:00] If I wasn`t your friend, I wouldn`t talk to you last time. Whatever you`ve got going with your family, man, we`re here to help you,
dude. Come on, man. I talked to you couple of weeks ago, man. All we want to do is help you out. That`s all we want to do. Just tell us what`s going
on, man.
Have you been alright the past couple of days? I know you ran off. Are you alright? You need food, water? What do you need, man? Come on. Let us help
you, man. You were talking to me the other week, man. Just let me help you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: This went on for 10 minutes. They were trying to get this kid to talk to them. You heard offered food, water, whatever he needs. They
pleaded with him to drop that gun. And that officer wasn`t the only one who was pleading with Aries.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, you`re somebody`s kid, man. We don`t want to do this. We can talk about this, but you got to put the gun down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: So we went through that tape, all 10 minutes. No fewer than 49 times, 49 times the officers begged that teenager to drop the gun. But
according to authorities, he didn`t drop the gun. You saw the video too. And just seconds after that cop offers to help Aries Clark for the very
last time, this is what happens. And I do want to warn you, some may find this disturbing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop it, man.
(GUNSHOT)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: So there is the final picture. Prosecutors say that that 16-year- old, Aries Clark, raised that gun at the officers just before he was fatally shot, and it was later determined that what he was holding was
actually a BB gun. There is no indication the officers knew that beforehand.
Two officers fired shots at the teenager. Only one officer actually hit the target and hit Aries. And just yesterday, a prosecutor determined that
those officers were justified. But Aries` family said he didn`t have to die.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VICKIE BURKS, GRANDMOTHER OF ARIS CLARK: That was enough time to take that -- take my grandson down without taking his life. Didn`t have to kill him.
That way. At least he`d be alive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Kim Cole represents the family of Aries Clark, and she joins me from Frisco, Texas. Kim, thanks for being with me. Our hearts go out to the
family of Aries. That is a tragedy any way you look at it. But honestly, Kim, what else could have been the result here?
KIM COLE, ATTORNEY FOR FAMILY OF ARIES CLARK (via telephone): Well, there are -- obviously the biggest result would have been that Aries lived. That
would obviously have been the best outcome. Law enforcement manages to take armed people into custody all the time, even people who have fired shots at
them, people who are armed with actual firearms versus a BB gun.
They manage to take them into custody all of the time without killing them. The biggest difference is these quote/unquote suspects don`t look like
Aries.
BANFIELD: So I want to bring Darrin Porcher into this. He is a retired New York City Police Department lieutenant, criminal justice expert as well.
Kim Cole just said it. I`m assuming when you say they don`t look like Aries, it`s because this is black teenager.
Do you see this as a black teenager issue or a kid who they asked 49 times to drop the gun and continued to walk towards the officers and then
ultimately brought that gun up which they didn`t know was a BB gun at the time and they fired?
DARRIN PORCHER, RETIRED NYPD LIEUTENANT, CRIMINAL JUSTICE EXPERT: I don`t see this as a race issue because the officers engaged Aries in dialogue for
10 minutes. Police use of force has been an enigma that has been plaguing society for a long time.
When we look at a lot of these use of force issues, it`s something that we don`t have a panacea for, but when we look at this situation here, I think
the officers practiced an overwhelming degree of firearms control. They asked him 40 times to drop the weapon.
BANFIELD: Forty-nine.
PORCHER: Right. And they had no other resolve but to shoot him.
BANFIELD: And this kid, I mean, troubled kid. My heart goes out to him. Look at that face. Yes, he had every right to live. But, Kim, one last
question to you, don`t the officers also have the chance to go home to their families? And when they see a gun go up at themselves or a fellow
officer, don`t they have that right too?
COLE (via telephone): Absolutely. They absolutely have a right to live. And like I said, that -- I have no problem with that. But law enforcement
manages to take people who have actually fired shots at them into custody without killing them. They knew they were coming to encounter a child. Did
no one bring any
[20:55:00] less lethal methods along, any less lethal measures along?
BANFIELD: Well, I`m no police officer.
COLE (via telephone): They knew they will encounter a child.
BANFIELD: I`m no police officer, but when a gun is raised, there is only one instruction in most training, and that it is a kill shot, period,
because that gun can go off in a split second and kill the officer as well. So I understand what you`re saying, but I also understand the way the
police are trained.
COLE (via telephone): It`s funny. I`m watching a video now of a white male with a gun coming towards officers. In some kind of way, they managed to
shoot him but not kill him.
BANFIELD: I hear what you`re saying. And again, our thoughts go out to the family of Aries Clark. He certainly is a victim in this as well. And my
thanks to Darrin Porcher for your perspective. I do appreciate it.
PORCHER: Thank you.
BANFIELD: This week`s CNN hero was volunteering at a school in New York City and was absolutely shocked to find out that some of the kids couldn`t
properly identify vegetables, let alone actually incorporate them into their diet. He did something great. He planted a seed for a solution. I
want you to meet Tony Hillery.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TONY HILLERY, CNN HERO: The children come in here, and they fall in love with the land. Got it! That`s lunch tomorrow. In a bustling city like New
York City, to find an oasis like this where you can go in and everything seems to slow down, this is their green safe place. Look at that! It`s not
just growing the vegetables for growing children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
