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Wolf

Steve Bannon Out; Trump Furious With Bannon Interview

Aired August 18, 2017 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer. Wherever you're watching from around the world, thanks very much for joining us.

We begin with breaking news right here in Washington, D.C. President Trump's chief strategist, Steve Bannon, is now out. That according to two administration officials.

The president and the White House, they were debating how and when to dismiss Steve Bannon but now we have confirmed, he will no longer be the chief strategist over at the White House. Steve Bannon, 63 years old, is out.

Let's go to our Senior White House Correspondent Jim Acosta. He's covering the president up in Bedminster, New Jersey. This is major news. A very significant development and it comes on the heels of several other senior officials leaving.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Wolf. And I'm just hearing from one White House official in the last couple of minutes here that it is believed that Steve Bannon resigned, but it is also believed that he may have been given the option to resign.

So, it sounds like, Wolf, from a source I'm just talking to in the last couple of minutes here that he was essentially forced out of this position, as chief strategist at the White House.

And one of the big reasons why, and we've heard it time and again from people close to the president. The president does not like other people inside the White House stealing the limelight.

And you saw this happen time and again, Steve Bannon appearing on the cover of "Time" magazine. Steve Bannon lampooned on "Saturday Night Live." There were times that this just got under the president's skin.

And as you know, over the last week, Steve Bannon has been doing some pretty high-profile interviews. We were just hearing from sources yesterday that Bannon said he was doing this to divert attention from the president's very disastrous press conference that he had on Tuesday over at Trump Tower. That apparently rankled people inside the White House as well.

I also heard from sources earlier in the week, Wolf, that new chief of staff, John Kelly, simply felt that Steve Bannon was not a team player. That he was out there, sort of, promoting himself, had his own agenda and was not the president's agenda first.

That was something that was just not going to work in the new power structure, as the way it was explained to me by White House sources under John Kelly.

And so, it really is no surprise here that Steve Bannon is out. One concern that they do have inside the White House, and we've heard this from several sources over the -- over a long period of time because it's been speculated before that Steve Bannon would be pushed out.

There is a concern inside the White House that now that Bannon is on the outside, what is going to be the reaction?

As you know, Wolf, Steve Bannon was one of the top executives at Breitbart online. He was head of Breitbart online for some time. That is a very conservative, hard right outlet.

And the concern is that Steve Bannon will direct pot shots at this White House from the outside. That is a concern that the president and his team have had for some time.

But nevertheless, the feeling was, inside the White House talking to several sources, Wolf, that Steve Bannon just had to go. This was becoming, sort of, an untenable situation, because he was just creating too much controversy for himself.

And so, the president and his team apparently feeling that it was appropriate for him to go. Again, I'm being told by a White House source in just the last couple minutes, that the belief is that he resigned, that he stepped aside.

But there is also a belief inside the White House that he was given that option. So, essentially, he was pushed out -- Wolf.

BLITZER: It's a very, very significant development, and it comes following several other very, very high-level resignations, which raises the question right now, and I wonder if you could answer it, why now? And what's going to be the impact of all of these significant staff shake-ups?

ACOSTA: Well, we know when John Kelly came in that he was implementing some changes that were not going to sit well with some people inside the White House. He was restricting access to the president, not only in person.

Remember, before John Kelly came onboard, Reince Priebus was chief of staff. And people from the inside of the White House to the outside of the White House, the president's friends and so on, had these, sort of, walk-in privileges where they could, essentially, go in and see the president whenever they felt like it and give any opinion they felt like giving.

My understanding is, from talking to top officials at the White House, is that John Kelly has even been getting on the phone and sitting in on phone calls with people trying to talk to the president on the phone. So, John Kelly is certainly trying to clamp down on the advice, the input, the information that this president is receiving as a way to, sort of, streamline the process over there.

[13:05:00] And also to try to prevent some of the problems that, obviously, you see play out with the president where he puts out tweets that are factually incorrect, when he goes out and makes statements like he did the other day at the press conference at Trump Tower which just ignited a firestorm of controversy.

John Kelly is trying to get a handle on all of that. But, of course, Wolf, as you know, the chief of staff can only do so much. He still works for the president. He can't control what the president says or does 24 hours a day.

BLITZER: Jim Acosta, stand by. Our White House Reporter Kaitlan Collins is working the story for us as well. You're getting more inside information, Kaitlan. What are you hearing?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes. So, obviously, we are know -- we know that Steve Bannon is out. We do not know if he resigned or if he was asked to resign by the president today, Wolf.

But we do know that the president was furious this week after Steve Bannon did this interview with a reporter for "The American Prospect." As you know, Wolf, in that interview, Steve Bannon contradicted the president on North Korea saying that there is no military solution for it.

And he also asserted that he could make personnel changes at the State Department. He was badmouthing his colleagues over at the White House. And we know that the president was furious about that interview.

That's been a problem that's come up before with Steve Bannon. The president does not like when Steve Bannon gets credit for his success. Back in April, he told a "New York Post" columnist that he was his own best strategist.

And even this week, we heard from the president, he would not guarantee Steve Bannon's job security. This week at Trump Tower in a press conference with reporters he said that Steve Bannon was a good person, but he said, we'll have to see about Steve Bannon's future. And I guess, Wolf, we're seeing about Steve Bannon's future right now today.

BLITZER: We certainly are. Steve Bannon out as chief strategist at the White House.

Let's get some analysis. Joining us, CNN Politics Reporter and Editor-at-Large Chris Cillizza, CNN Political Director David Chalian, CNN Politics Editor Juana Summers, and our Chief National Correspondent John King.

John, shouldn't come as a surprise after this interview in "The American Prospect" when he said this about the president of United States, referring to the North Korean strategy. He said, in Kim, Kim Jong-Un, the leader of North Korea, Trump has met his match. The risk of two arrogant fools blundering into a nuclear exchange is more serious than at any time since October 1962. Two arrogant fools.

KING: Yes, you shouldn't say that about your boss anyway, especially when your boss is the president of the United States. It's stunning. The entire interview is stunning.

But in that, he's not only talking about two arrogant fools, saying his boss, the president of the United States, is a fool. He also essentially said, pay no attention to what you heard from the president last week when the president was saying locked and loaded, fire and fury, using the more muscular rhetoric about North Korea. He said there is no military option. We know there's no military option, unless you're prepared for millions of people to die in Seoul.

So, he went on the record. He insists, after the fact, he didn't think it was an interview, sorry, you know, in criticizing the president.

So, Steve Bannon has been a controversy inside the Trump White House from day one. And on this day, he is gone.

But this is -- the defining question is, Steve Bannon is not the source of the chaos at the White House. He may be part of the chaos at the White House. But the source of the chaos at the White House is the president.

What will the president do? His last chief -- his first chief of staff is gone. Now, his chief strategist is gone. They've had a very hard time. I know people who they reached out to chief of staff who said no.

John Kelly now has that job. I know several people they reached out for communications and strategy jobs who've said no. Now what happens?

It's the president who sends mixed signals and conflicting signals on policy. It's the president who lashes out on Twitter with anger and outbursts at his critics.

And it is the president who dug the ditch much deeper this past week with his moral and character failing after Charlottesville.

So, Steve Bannon can go. That will create theater and drama here in Washington. It could create a backlash, among media elements especially who are part of the Trump base and part of his support.

But the biggest question here is, if the president decided it's time to come to do this, what lesson does he learn from it, if any?

BLITZER: David Chalian.

CHALIAN: Well, we should do away with the word resignation right now. Because, I mean, perhaps he offered a piece of paper. That's like saying if he's going to do this to spend more time with his family. Let's do away with that.

He's out because the president wanted him out, because the president's chief of staff thought this was part of the process of bringing order to this west wing and more discipline to this west wing.

John is exactly right and this is exactly what we discussed when Reince Priebus was fired, who also, by the way, said he resigned. And when he was shown the door, the same thing. Was, all of a sudden, something going to dramatically change? No. Because the man who sits in the Oval Office is the same.

Now, getting rid of somebody who is affiliated and associated with white nationalist ideology, who runs a Web site where folks from the alt-right find comfort and home --

BLITZER: Used to run it.

CHALIAN: Used to, although he may be going back. We'll see.

BLITZER: Yes.

CHALIAN: But, yes, used to do that. It's probably a good thing for Donald Trump to do politically this week. Though not sufficient.

He still has his comments out there from Tuesday that are lingering out there where he created the moral equivalency between the counter- protestors and the KKK and the neo-Nazis.

And so, Donald Trump still will have to address that, at some point. Just getting rid of Bannon won't be enough.

But you will see many Republican, sort of, established Republicans, Republicans on the Hill, who will find this -- find some comfort in this move that there is a serious effort to bring a more streamlined disciplined operation to the staff around the president, even though nobody in their right mind could actually say that they expect the president's behavior to change.

[13:10:30] BLITZER: The new chief of staff, General John Kelly, he made it clear the other day. He was in an interview over the weekend. He was repeatedly asked about his -- does he have confidence in Steve Bannon and he refused to say he did. So, this, clearly, Juana, emerges as -- at least it looks to me, as a win for John Kelly.

SUMMERS: Absolutely it is. But I think to both David and John's point. We also have to resist the impulse of coming out of the situation with another senior White House official departing, being fired, because the president doesn't want him there. And saying this is some sort of a reset or pivot.

Only time will tell because as John notes, if the president's behavior doesn't change, if he is not -- does not continue to rein in those impulses to go out and say things that are factually untrue, to say things that are divisive like comparing counter-protesters to neo- Nazis and members of the KKK and bigots, then we're going to be in this exact same place. And I don't care who is in the president's inner circle.

BLITZER: A lot of Democrats, Chris Cillizza, they had repeatedly, in recent weeks, and months in fact, called on the president to fire Steve Bannon. So, they're going to step back and say, this is good news.

CILLIZZA: I doubt it. But you're right. You're right, they have --

BLITZER: Democratic senators, Democratic members of the House repeatedly said, fire Steve Bannon.

CILLIZZA: Yes. And he has been someone -- look, when Steve Bannon was hired in the Trump campaign, this was not someone where you got 10 good things and zero bad things about him. This was a decision by Donald Trump that this is a guy who, Donald Trump believed, the baggage Steve Bannon would bring would be slightly outweighed by the advantages he could bring.

This was never someone we thought, but I guess I'll speak for myself, I thought was going to last four years in the Trump administration. It's not who Steve Bannon is.

That said, Donald Trump has, sort of, mainlined Bannonism. This week alone is a good example of it. So, yes, Steve Bannon is gone, but look from Steve Bannon's influence and the way in which Donald Trump thinks, the way in which he presents almost every argument.

Steve Bannon's the leading -- you know, the mainstream media is corrupt and terrible. The alt-right stuff, the white supremacist stuff. You know, there is a lot of Steve Bannon's thinking left in this White House.

And to John's point, it's left in the figure of the one guy who really matters in this White House who is the president of the United States.

KING: Although, I would just argue, he hasn't acted on a lot of it yet. I think that's the fascinating part. I think, definitely, the tone, the tenor of the remarks in Charlottesville were, you know, the moral equivalence, the criticism of the alt-left, no doubt that is echoing Steve Bannon.

And that's clear -- look, forget Steve Bannon for a second. That's clearly what Donald Trump thinks. If you watched him at that news conference, he came back to it repeatedly. He wanted to have that conversation. That is his thinking, perhaps supported and echoed by Steve Bannon.

My big policy question, though, is Reince Priebus was the Republican establishment guy. He's gone. Steve Bannon was the, you know, sort of, pitchfork Tea Party, America first, not interventionist in the world.

So, if you're watching -- you know, the president's having a meeting right now. What about more U.S. troops in Afghanistan? That's what his national security advisors say is necessary. We know the president's instinct is, oh, please. Why do I want to extent America's longest war? Why do I want to put my fingerprints on that? Steve Bannon was, get out. He's not in the room anymore when those conversations are having.

Steve Bannon wanted the president, you saw it in a remarkable conversation with Bob Kuttner in the "American Prospect" to get tougher with China, to slap trade sanctions on China. The president hasn't done that seven months in. That person is no longer in the room.

So, what happens going forward, from an ideological policy perspective? Whether it's, we're about to go through the debt ceiling conversation. So, there are Domestic issues, too, that divide and fracture the Republican Party.

We know Steve Bannon's piece of that inside the White House. What we don't know is General Kelly is not a political person. Who does he bring in? Who can he bring in? Who will come in? To deal with the political, whether it's the policy strategy and how to try to get Obamacare again. How to get through tax reform? How to come back to these debt ceiling and the spending issues.

And then, guess what? 2018 is a mid-term president -- a mid-term election year. The president usually suffers in that year. Who runs the political strategy? We don't know.

BLITZER: All right Jim Acosta is getting some official word now from the White House. What are you picking up over there, Jim?

ACOSTA: A couple of things, Wolf. One is the White House has now issued a statement from press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders. It says, White House chief of staff, John Kelly, and Steve Bannon have mutually agreed today would be Steve's last date. We are grateful for his service and wish him the best.

Wolf, I'm told by a separate White House official, just in the last several minutes, that Steve Bannon was given the -- was essentially supposed to be fired two weeks ago but was given the option to resign. Now, obviously, you're getting into some semantics here as to what's -- resigning, what's being forced out? What's being fired?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:15:00] ACOSTA: Ago but was given the option to resign. And, obviously, you're getting into some semantics here as to what's, you know, resigning and what's being forced out, what's being fired?

Make no mistake, Steve Bannon was fired by the White House. He was fired. He was given the boot. When you were told that you have the option to resign, you are being fired. So just to, you know, sort of break our way through the semantics game here, that is essentially what has taken place.

And, you know, this -- this is essentially something that's been in the works for some time. As I said, a White House official told me that some of this was supposed to happen two weeks ago. And so this has obviously been on, not just the president's mind, but on John Kelly's mind. As soon as he came onboard as White House chief of staff from talking to our sources, Wolf, he just simply was not comfortable with Steve Bannon staying around, mainly because, and as we were saying earlier, this has really been a problem that people have had inside this White House with Steve Bannon for some time, that he just simply pursued his own agenda in addition to pushing for the president's agenda. And in the John Kelly power structure, that is just simply not going to work.

And from what we're also hearing, there were also some problems inside the White House this last week over these interviews that Steve Bannon was giving to various outlets where he was essentially trying to speak on behalf of the White House. And that is just not going to work in this John Kelly power structure that's been put in place over there.

So just a -- yes, just to recap, Wolf, from what we're hearing from White House sources, just to break through some of the White House bureaucratic semantics here, Steve Bannon was fired, Wolf.

BLITZER: And read that statement from Sarah Huckabee Sanders, Jim, one more time.

ACOSTA: Right. The statement is pretty -- it's pretty direct. It's pretty to the point here. It says, White House Chief of Staff John Kelly and Steve Bannon have mutually agreed today would be Steve's last day. We are grateful for his service and wish him the best.

So it sounds as if this really came to a head today. Although -- I got to tell you, Wolf, there are some conflicting stories out there. Not being reported by CNN, but by others, that Steve Bannon resigned. All indications are to us, Wolf, is that he was forced out, he was forced to resign, and he was essentially fired.

BLITZER: Yes, very interesting.

You know, David Chalian, I've seen, and John King and I, over the years, a lot of statements from White House officials about somebody leaving the White House. But the notion that the chief of staff, John Kelly, and Steve Bannon have mutually agreed today would be Steve's last day, John, you just correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't -- I don't remember a statement from a White House about someone leaving like that.

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NAITONAL CORRESPONDENT: Let me ask you this. If the chief of staff, who's your boss at the White House next to the president, says, you know, I think today should be your last day, you either mutually agree or you get fired.

CHALIAN,: That's right. That's right.

KING: You don't work the next day.

CHALIAN: Don't -- don't come back.

KING: Yes. We're taking away your computer. You just lost your parking spot. We're taking away your passes.

He's a human being. We're making -- you know, but -- so we should give him some grace here in the sense that this is hard for anybody to go through.

But the way -- the way politicians and organizations try to spin this when something like this happens, that is -- we've decided we're done here and you can agree or you -- either way, you're done.

CHALIAN: I think there are two critical points here for us to consider. What Jim Acosta was just reporting, and undoubtedly true and important to look at sort of a John Kelly-run operation. True. But let's remember here, this is a key reminder about a critical component of President Trump, which is there's only room for one star of this show. And so when you are out there in interviews saying, I'm moving people at state this way, I'm getting rid -- and you're acting like you are the one controlling the strings of the government, that's not going to -- that won't fly with most presidents. Certainly not this president. That has been made time -- clear again and again.

The other point that John was getting at earlier, and I think this is the, we now have to wait and see. For the first seven months of this administration, Wolf, I have been hard-pressed -- I've been saying this on the air.

Think through the seven months. What has President Trump done? What policy path has he taken where he was really clearly trying, 51 percent majority of the country come follow me. I am going for a majority position her and going to lead the way for a majority of Americans to follow. I think you'll be very hard pressed to find a moment in the first seven months.

That's because it was a political strategy Bannon was the leader of this political strategy that the president bought into, to fortify that base. Keep going for that 38, 40 percent that is with you. Keep making them happy. Keep doing that. You don't need to worry about the rest. That's just a radically different approach than we've seen most presidents.

So when you say, John, like, who's going to come in now to help Kelly, who's not a political guy, sort of make a strategy and execute now. To me that's a key question. Are we now going to see, since the leader of this play for the base strategy is out, are we now going to see a President Trump decide to make a play for 50 percent plus one?

[13:20:01] BLITZER: Yes.

CILLIZZA: Well, what you have -- what you have, to John and Dave's point, what you have is a lot of people who we don't really know what they believe around the president, right? So we have Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump. We have General Kelly. Who -- what else?

And we know -- look, Donald Trump's been a Democrat. He's been an independent. He's a Republican now. But his views are not, on things like trade, not fully aligned. It's not clear he has a firm set of views. I was listening to the conversation on John's show just before we came

on. And I do think it is -- I think the Mike Pence circle is important to look at. Because, look, Mike Pence has a set of beliefs and now has political people around him in a way that Donald Trump just doesn't.

BLITZER: Juana, I want to show our viewers a picture. This is a picture that, you know, we just came up with. You see the president over there with his former senior advisors. Take a look at that. Juana, you see Reince Priebus, no longer there. You see Steve Bannon in the middle there. Sean Spicer. Is that Michael Flynn sitting over there?

KING: Yes.

CILLIZZA: Yes.

BLITZER: They're all sitting in the Oval Office. The only two remaining are the president and the vice president in this picture right there. This picture was taken January 28th in the Oval Office.

SUMMERS: That's a really, really stark image to think about, just how replaceable some of these people are for this president. I think David's point was really smart, and something I've been thinking about a lot is that, this is a president we've seen his focus and his ideology has been about winning. It's what he campaigned on. It is very clear from listening to him talk that he is obsessed with winning. He's obsessed with the fact that he lost the popular vote. Though he won the election and has the presidency, he's still out there campaigning. And that is clearly a Bannon-driven ideology to focus on that base, focus on keeping the people behind him who gave him the thing that he wanted, the thing that he wants to have again, I assume, in 2020, because he's having a campaign rally next week. So it will be really interesting to see whether or not that continues or if he will start moving into a governing mode, into a public service mode, the kind of model that we've seen more traditionally from presidents in history.

BLITZER: By the way, this photo was taken on January 28th. The president was on the phone with President Putin of Russia, and he had his top aides there surrounding him during that conversation.

KING: Every administration goes through resets. Every administration brings people in, either loyalists from the campaign, governors bring in people from their states. There's always some turnover.

However, to show that picture and to see how much and how high, at what high levels. The national security adviser. The chief of staff. The chief strategist. Your press secretary, who was essentially your top communications person in the administration. They're all gone in just seven months. They're all gone now in just seven months.

Chris makes a great point, what happens to Mike Pence? There's an opportunity here for Mike Pence, although the president often speaks quite critically of his vice president in private conversations, saying he was supposed to be my Washington guy. He was supposed to be -- go to Capitol Hill and get me the votes for Obamacare and the like. There's no question there's an opportunity for the vice president.

The vice president is also going to get a lot more phone calls because he's the only person left in the White House who comes out of the main stream Republican Party and conservative movement.

Here's the fear among conservatives. Whether it's the Breitbart conservatives or, for that matter, Speaker Ryan, and especially the more conservative House Freedom Caucus members. Jared Kushner, Gary Cohn, Ivanka from New York, Democrats, or moderate Republicans at best. Moderate Republicans at best. Gary Cohn has said, maybe we should have a carbon tax. Some of these people are on the record supporting Bush, Kennedy, McCain, you know, legalizing the undocumented as part of comprehensive immigration reform. They are not -- certainly not southern conservatives, Freedom Caucus Conservatives, balanced budget conservatives.

Are they involved in the tax reform negotiations? Steve Mnuchin, the Treasury secretary, again, viewed as suspect by a lot of the Republican Party just because he comes from New York. And remember candidate Trump railed on Hillary Clinton as in the pocket of Wall Street, as in the pocket of the rich money and interests on Wall Street. Who is around this president? Juana is dead right, he's transactional. He's not ideological. So he can be swayed in these policy fights by people who tell him, here's how to get a win.

BLITZER: Yes.

KING: What happens now?

BLITZER: All right, we're going to talk -- continue the breaking news coverage. There's a lot to assess, including winners and losers inside the White House, outside the White House.

Our special coverage continues right after this quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:28:14] BLITZER: The breaking news we're following, Steve Bannon, the president's chief strategist in the White House has now left. He is no longer the chief strategist.

I want to bringing in Robert Kuttner. He's the co-editor of "American Prospect." He was the journalist who interviewed Steve Bannon earlier this week and caused such a huge, huge stir.

Bob, thanks so much for joining us.

Let me get your immediate reaction to the word that Steve Bannon, the man you spoke to on the phone, is now officially out.

ROBERT KUTTNER, CO-EDITOR, "AMERICAN PROSPECT": Well, I'm -- I'm stunned. I think, as your panel indicated, he was pretty much on the ropes before this happened. So maybe this was the last straw.

But, you know, the Greeks used to say that character is fate. And he's been displaying a kind of recklessness, a kind of freelancing that put him on very thin ice. And I think it was only a matter of time. And the recklessness was fully on display in the conversation with me, not just in terms of what he said about his colleagues, about his boss, about himself, but in terms of just neglecting to even say whether we were on the record or off the record. And this is not a rookie. I mean it was a rookie error by one of the savviest media operators in the country, in the world.

BLITZER: What was the most reckless thing that you recall Steve Bannon saying about the president of the United States in that interview you had with him?

KUTTNER: Well, I think directly contradicting the president's view on Korea. That was pretty reckless. I think going into great detail about the in-fighting, who he was going to get fired, by name. Her job is probably as safe as anybody's job in America right now. And the fact that, you know, he had -- he had problems with Gary Cohn. I mean it was like he was taking on everybody all at once.

[13:30:10] And I think the other thing that was reckless was