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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield

Is Scott Peterson Innocent?; Has Natalee Holloway`s Body Been Found?; Massage Parlor Was Much More. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired August 22, 2017 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

[20:00:00] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HLN HOST (voice-over): If only they could speak from the grave. Tonight, two gripping mysteries come roaring back

into the headlines. Natalee Holloway...

NATALEE HOLLOWAY: The beach was a blast. I had the best time of my life.

BANFIELD: ... and Scott Peterson, both with shocking new evidence that could bust the cases wide open.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We the jury in the above-entitled cause find the defendant, Scott Lee Peterson, guilty of the crime of murder.

BANFIELD: New questions about that guilty verdict and what a neighbor told A&E in a brand-new series.

DIANE JACKSON, WITNESS: On the day Laci disappeared, I saw somebody there. And she told me, You have to go to the police with that information.

BANFIELD: And a new, unfiltered look at the media firestorm that may have tainted the case.

SCOTT PETERSON, CONVICTED OF MURDER: Suspicion about me has risen to such a degree that I think people stopped looking for Laci.

BANFIELD: Weighing in tonight, the police who investigated, prosecutors, and reporters on the story on what`s changed now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His overall demeanor was so off.

BANFIELD: And are we or aren`t we close to solving the disappearance of Natalee Holloway?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just wanted to (INAUDIBLE)

BANFIELD: Twelve years ago, she vanished without a trace. Now suddenly, a break.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) come forward.

BANFIELD: A new series on Oxygen with an explosive discovery leads to a grave site, and human remains.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you believe the information he told you is a hundred percent?

BANFIELD: But trouble in the investigation, as Aruban authorities snap to attention.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And they took the bones and sent them to the lab.

BANFIELD: If those remains are in America, were they stolen off the island? And what are the odds it`s Natalee?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: Hello, everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. This is PRIMETIME JUSTICE.

Some people are so famous, they only need one name -- Mandela, Bono, Cher, Madonna. And strangely, the same thing seems to hold true for crime --

O.J., Manson, JonBenet, Casey. America seems absolutely transfixed with celebrity crime, even when the criminal isn`t a celebrity. In fact, it is

sometimes the crime itself that often makes someone a celebrity.

Take Scott Peterson, jailed for killing his pregnant wife, Laci, 12 years ago, or Natalee Holloway, who vanished without a trace that very same year

while she was on a class trip.

Here we are more than a decade later, and both of these cases are yielding some new information tonight. And with that comes a brand-new debate,

questions about what the neighbors saw the day Laci Peterson disappeared, and skeletal bones right now being tested to determine if they are Natalee

Holloway`s remains.

We have a special edition of PRIMETIME JUSTICE tonight, featuring these two cases, and we`re sifting through these new revelations to see if Natalee`s

disappearance can be solved or if Scott`s case might be reversed.

And we begin with Scott. The A&E network has been running a series called "The Murder of Laci Peterson," and in tonight`s episode, they take a deep

dive into Scott`s behavior after Laci went missing and how that played into his guilty verdict.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Immediately out of the gate, Scott Peterson is the suspect because he`s the husband of the missing woman. And his overall

demeanor was so of from what they had seen in their experience as investigators that they completely zeroed in on him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: The series has also unearthed a neighbor who swears that she saw home invaders on the lawn across the street from Laci and Scott`s house and

that she saw them the day that Laci went missing, even though police decided, because the robbers told them, that the robbery actually happened

two days later.

All of this as Scott speaks from death row at San Quentin, a very different man from more than a decade ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETERSON: It is entirely too selfish for me to defend myself amongst these accusations when Laci`s missing and all the media time should be spent

towards finding her, and all our energy should be spent towards finding her. Unfortunately, suspicion about me has risen to such a degree that I

think people stopped to look for Laci. They`ve stopped (INAUDIBLE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Let`s get right to this newest information in this case. And joining me tonight, retired Modesto Police Department detective Jon

Buehler, who worked on the Peterson case, journalist Ted Rowlands, who also covered this case from crime to gavel to gavel.

[20:05:02]Former prosecutor Robert Schalk is here with me live, former prosecutor and my Court TV alum friend Beth Karas is with us. She is live

in Modesto, California, where this happened, and investigative journalist Dawna Kaufmann, the author of "Final Exams," who also covered this case

from the beginning to the end.

Ted Rowlands, I`m going to begin with you because you stood on that lawn night after night, day after day, and you covered that story month after

month, and it turned out to be year after year.

Ted, TV shows and documentaries can change everything. Just look at Stephen Avery. But is that what we`re talking about here? Is there real

potential that Scott`s case could actually be overturned with what A&E is digging up?

TED ROWLANDS, JOURNALIST: Well, it`s tough to say, Ashleigh. It`s different. With Stephen Avery, people were cheering for him. No one`s

going to be cheering for Scott Peterson, I don`t think, even despite the new look at his case through A&E. But what people may start to do is think

about the evidence, and specifically the lack of evidence.

Frankly, there`s a guy on death row, and nobody knows how he killed his wife and unborn son. The prosecutor said it in his closing, I don`t know

how he did it, when he did it (INAUDIBLE) did it, and you need to come back with a guilty verdict. I think time is going to help him because it`s been

10-plus years, 13 years, I think people are willing now to take another look at this case.

And what they will find is there`s not a lot of physical evidence against Scott Peterson.

BANFIELD: OK. So Detective Jon Buehler, I want to bring you into this because when Ted talks about the evidence, a lot of people drift towards

the behavior. And I know that you`ve said a lot of things about the kind of guy Scott Peterson was right from the day he met you and your team.

I want to play a moment from the A&E documentary, "The Murder of Laci Peterson." It airs 10:00 o`clock Eastern on Tuesday night. That would be

tonight, the second installment tonight. This is what you said about Scott`s demeanor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DET. JON BUEHLER, MODESTO POLICE DEPARTMENT: There were a couple of things that Scott did with Detective Brokini (ph) that seemed strange for the

circumstances. The first night, Al was given a glass of water to drink and Al had set it on a wooden table. And Scott was really quick to bring over

a coaster.

A little while later, they were out in the carport area and Al was taking a look through Scott`s and Laci`s vehicles. Al had opened up the door on one

of them and apparently was bumping the door of the other. And Scott was right there with a glove so that there wouldn`t be a nick to the paint on

the one vehicle that wasn`t open.

To me, it doesn`t seem like that`s something that would be important to you if your loved one was missing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Detective Buehler, those are two very strange pieces of behavior, but there was a lot more, and I just want to outline this for our

audience. Scott seemed a lot more concerned about the police taking photos of his boat at the warehouse. He actually was concerned about getting a

receipt for the pink slippers and the sunglasses of Laci`s that, you know, needed to be handed over so that the tracking dogs would have something

with her scent on them. And that he also did not know, or was unable to answer, what kind of fish he was out fishing for, or curiously, what kind

of bait he`d used.

Detective, I`m actually an angler, and I`m not a good one, but I sure as hell know what I fish for and I sure as hell know what`s on the end of my

line. Is this what got the ball rolling, or is this what sealed his fate?

BUEHLER: Well, I don`t think it necessarily sealed his fate because there were so many things that seemed to do that. I mean, this case was built on

circumstantial evidence. It was a premeditated murder, of course. You`re rarely going to have a witness to that.

And of course, your crime scene is going to be cleansed because knew he was going to do it and he was able to clean up the crime scene. So if we`re

looking for a crime scene that`s got blood spatter like on "CSI Miami," well, we`re not going to have that there.

But the thing is, is with Scott, he did so many things that were so different from Sharon and Ron and Stacy (ph) and Laurie (ph), you know, the

people close to Laci. Everybody was going crazy over this thing. They were concerned. They were firing questions at us. They were frustrated

that we couldn`t get things done as fast as they wanted them done.

But the only one who was in complete control was Scott. And you could interpret that a variety of different ways, but it seemed to us that he was

not concerned. It was an inconvenience that we were there. He was hoping the whole thing would go away.

And there were a lot of things that came up later on as we investigated that suggested that he was hoping this thing would all be done by the end

of January.

BANFIELD: Well, before January would have been -- you know, I believe it was actually December 30th, correct me if I`m wrong, there was a vigil held

for his missing wife, Laci. I know it`s an investigative tactic to put your guys out there at the vigil to see what happens, to see who comes out

there, see who attends and to watch the people that might not know you`re watching them.

This is a picture of Scott Peterson actually at the vigil. I think he`s laughing at Laci`s vigil. And there`s another picture of him that clearly

looks like he`s smiling. Did you do that tactic? Did you watch this in real time? Did this tell you anything about Scott?

[20:10:08]BUEHLER: Well, I was probably doing something else at the time so I didn`t see it in real time. But of course, it matched up with the

same lack of concern when he had during that same vigil, he was on the phone with Amber, who was down in Fresno, claiming that he, Scott, was

walking on the wet cobblestones in Paris and watching the fireworks go off during New Year`s.

And so it`s one of these things where -- you know, at what point do you stop saying that these are coincidences and start adding them up to being

circumstantial evidence?

And everybody has their own view of that. And like Mark Geragos said last night, correctly so, that, you know, just because a guy is fooling around

on his wife does not make him a murderer. And absolutely, he`s true on that. But at the same time, when you start adding all these things up, it

starts pushing you in that direction.

But the thing about Scott, though, he`s -- I got to tell you, aside from, you know, what he was doing behind Laci`s back and what we believe he did

to Laci and Conner, he`s kind of a tough guy to dislike. I`ve heard a lot of people bad-mouth him and things like that, but in all the time that we

spent with him, not a profane word. He was cooperative to a point. But of course, he would always shut down. But easy to deal with, never insulting.

If most cops had to deal with crooks like Scott, they would probably lose their interest in the job because he was just pretty pleasant.

BANFIELD: So one of the defense attorneys who commented, you know, at length on this case as it was playing out was a guy named Chris Pixley.

And I want to bring in my fellow journalist, Beth Karas, on this because Beth, not only are you a great legal journalist, but you`re a former

prosecutor and nothing gets by you.

And so I know when you covered this case, you scoured every single piece of evidence, every single thing that passed by the defense table, prosecutor`s

table that was entered into evidence. This is what Chris Pixley, the defense attorney, had to say about what the evidence really was like in

this case. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS PIXLEY, ATTORNEY: When Brokini locks in on Scott Peterson that night, it had everything to do with the fact that they weren`t pulling

anything out of that house, that they weren`t finding any clues at all. (INAUDIBLE) have was any physical evidence from the home, or Scott

Peterson`s workplace. The only thing that was found was a single piece of Laci`s hair on a pair of pliers that were rusted shut. And I would hope

that his wife`s hair is at his workplace. I would hope that he had his wife`s hair on some of his clothes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Beth Karas, a lot of Scott Peterson boosters would say that this trial was devoid of actual evidence. Did you agree?

BETH KARAS, FORMER PROSECUTOR (via telephone): Right. Not a lot of forensic evidence. I mean, in the house, I mean, I do believe it was a

soft (ph) kill (ph). In the house, you would expect to find, you know, her fingerprints, things like that. There were a few spots of Scott`s blood on

the bedspread. It`s not surprising. I mean, when you strangle or smother someone, you`re not going to leave, you know, forensic evidence behind.

But as Detective Buehler was just describing, you know, it was little pieces of evidence, bit by bit, that really built a very compelling case of

bill (ph) to get Scott Peterson.

And I do not foresee that being undone unless an appellate court is absolutely convinced that the timeline the defense is now creating is the

true one and not the one that was presented at trial.

In order to believe that Scott Peterson is innocent, you have to believe, I think, that he went fishing and Laci was still alive. And there`s

absolutely no credible evidence that she was still alive when he went fishing. The burglary in the house across the street -- there`s no

question it occurred after December 24th.

It did not occur on Christmas Eve day in broad daylight. The woman who claims to have seen the burglars saw three men who did not fit the

description of the men who confessed, passed polygraphs, had possession of the materials taken in the burglary, found in their possession.

I mean, it doesn`t add up. Moreover, there were searchers, including Laci Peterson`s stepfather, Ron Grantski (ph), who went into the Medina (ph)

back yard on Christmas Day, saw nothing amiss. They didn`t see tools, the tool shed with the door open, tools amiss, the back door kicked open. It

didn`t happen on the 24th. It happened on the 25th, the day that the Medinas (ph) arrived home at 4:30 later that day.

BANFIELD: Interesting you would say that because, you know, Diane Jackson has talked about that burglarized house across the street from Scott and

Laci. She`s actually talking about it in the A&E special, as well. She seems pretty darn sure that it was Christmas Day.

And the folks who were burglarized, they felt pretty darn sure that it was Christmas Day, even though they weren`t there. Ultimately, this is how

Diane Jackson talked about this moment where she said she saw these three guys out on the lawn of the neighbor`s house across from the Petersons`

house. Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[20:15:00]DIANE JACKSON, WITNESS: And when I went by Medinas` (ph) house, I saw people on the lawn and a van. I noticed it because they all turned

around and looked at me. And I thought, Hmm, that`s weird. I didn`t put it together until a neighbor said, Gee, Medinas (ph) came home, and their

home was burglarized while they were gone. And they think it was the 24th.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Dawna Kaufmann is an investigative journalist. I know you have a lot to say about not just the burglary theory and those three people

spotted on the lawn, and what day, but about the evidence that was actually found in this case. You think it`s bogus, this whole burglary theory?

DAWNA KAUFMANN, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST (via telephone): Oh, totally. And I think there was plenty of forensic evidence. There were 93 bags of

materials taken from the home, and from that, they found things like four - - actually, four bloodstains that were Scott`s on the duvet cover, and they were faded. So when that was presented at trial, it was explained that we

can`t say when it was put there, but it`s there and it`s Scott`s.

Scott also had a cut on his hand that Geragos described as a scab that had opened and it deposited blood inside his car panel, by where the handle of

the door was.

And the jury considered Geragos to be a freight train. He was indefegable (ph) about turning out alternate theories, neo-Nazis, satanic cults, the

guy in the van with blood that turned out to be salsa, druggies who wanted a baby.

And in fact, the cops looked at 258 sex offenders in the area. Thousands were questioned. And one false confessor kept saying, It`s me, it`s me.

You know, people will do anything to get part of a case, and apparently to get on a television show.

BANFIELD: So Dawna, tell me about that -- the marine tidal reports of the area where Laci and her unborn son, Conner, surfaced. That was the same

place, as I understand it, that Scott Peterson said he was fishing. And those marine tidal reports were found where?

KAUFMANN: They were found on his home computer. He had downloaded them because he wanted to pick the optimum place to deposit the body, which --

Laci was, I believe, killed in the bedroom, and...

BANFIELD: What about fishing?

KAUFMANN: ... it was a soft kill and...

BANFIELD: But what about checking on your home computer...

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: Dawna, what about checking on your home computer for marine tidal reports in the place where you`re going fishing because you`re taking

a boat out in a tidal area? Isn`t that plausible?

KAUFMANN: Yes, it`s possible. But why would he do that if he didn`t even know what fish he was going for?

And by the way, this was a secret boat he had just bought. He didn`t tell his father. He didn`t tell his stepfather about this. It was secret. It

was there with a secret trailer hitch. And he didn`t tell anyone he was doing this until it was already done.

But I believe he killed her in the house. That`s why he got his hand cut from her fingernails, which she fought back. The medical examiner found

that her torso -- and only her torso and some parts of her limbs were recovered, not her head, not her hands and feet. But from that, they found

out that three of her ribs were broken before she died. So there was a struggle there in that bedroom, I believe.

And he wrapped her up, put her in the boat. And there`s a picture of one of the police department`s workers in that boat, crouched in there. She`s

about the same size, not pregnant, as Laci. And she fit in there very easily. You stick a tarp over that. You put anchors on her extremities.

And four months later, when the blood -- when the decomposition gases explode in her abdomen, the baby is expelled, washes ashore, and what`s

left of Laci is also washed ashore the next day.

BANFIELD: And it`s probably that exact description that is why it`s hard to imagine that young woman with the million-dollar smile ended up in that

horrifying and morbid scene that investigators were forced to actually forensically investigate and ultimately would trace back to Scott Peterson.

So there are some issues that still need to be resolved, and that is what the media was saying. Was it all true? Like, did the house smell like

bleach right after Scott Peterson had arrived home from fishing? Was that true?

[20:20:10]And what about the concrete blocks, those homemade anchors? How many were there? Were they found at the Peterson house? How many of them

were missing? And how would they know if concrete blocks were missing?

We are not done talking about Scott Peterson and these potential new developments, coming up after this quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: There was so much talk about Scott Peterson when Scott Peterson was in the news and Laci Peterson was missing. There was much more talk

when Laci Peterson turned up dead and Scott Peterson was arrested. But was the talk fair?

[20:25:00]I want to play for you a small news clip about bleach being found in the home, and also Scott Peterson`s sister-in-law and how she refutes

the things that were being said. She`s the one, by the way, who`s just interviewed him (ph) for this A&E special. Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Reports say police discovered Peterson washed his clothes before he reported his wife missing, that his house smelled of

bleach when investigators first arrived.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was information being leaked out that the house smelled like bleach that kind of implied that Scott cleaned something up.

And it turned out not to be true. Every police officer who responded to the 911 call the evening of December 24th was asked if the house smelled

like bleach, and there was not one person who said they smelled bleach.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Ted Rowlands, as a reporter who was living in all of this, you know, a decade and then some ago, was this a circus that went off the

rails? Or was much of it, the bulk of it, fair game and true?

ROWLANDS: You know, there were things like the bleach story that really got people going and pointing the fingers towards Scott, that obviously now

we know were not true. But it was a circus, Ashleigh. You`ve covered the mega trials. When everyone is interested in a case like this one, where

every single detail is being pored over, the ratings every day on every television station that airs this is going up.

People are looking for anything. So a rumor comes out, and boom, everybody pounced on it. The media and the public`s attention absolutely had an

effect on this case. It put pressure on investigators, and I believe that every one of those jurors knew that they were being watched during this

trial.

BANFIELD: Sure. May have put pressure on the investigators, may have helped the investigators, too. Detective Buehler, I don`t know if the

media was helpful or harmful, but I do know that you had a tough time with Scott as a cooperating witness. In fact, it was an odd circumstance that

he wasn`t interested in getting any updates from you, was he. He didn`t want to know where you were in this case, did he.

BUEHLER: Well, no, not really too much, not compared to Sharon and Ron and everybody else that was close to Laci. And that`s one of the things that

was unique about him that kept us suspicious of his behavior because when he`s the only one who seems to know what the outcome`s going to be and when

he`s doing things that suggest that he knows what the outcome is going to be, you know, just a whole list of those things, it puts us in a position

where we can`t clear him.

And although he was polite and cooperative and very, you know, decent to deal with, he would always stop short of going the final measure that we

would need to be able to get him cleared of suspicion, whether it was a polygraph or any number of things. And even though those can`t be used in

court, those help us judge, you know, the cooperation level of somebody. And it`s also the interview that follows the polygraph that helps us out.

So when he didn`t go along with all those things -- I mean, I get that. He`s -- he`s talked to his dad and he had an attorney, and he didn`t want

to do that. But it does make it difficult for us to be able to clear him. And even though we were still working him, we had other detectives that

were working other things, like had been mentioned earlier, the sex registrants and the violent offenders that were paroled out and committed

(ph) offenses that were similar to an abduction of a female.

BANFIELD: So Dawna Kaufmann, there was a piece of evidence that was -- that was significant in this case. And I should say five pieces of

evidence. Three of them were found and two of them were not, is that correct? These anchors, these homemade anchors, effectively a big chunk of

concrete, with something you can hang onto or tie something to. What is the significance of these homemade concrete block anchors, where they were

found and where they weren`t found?

KAUFMANN: They were found on the trailer that held the boat. And it was a wooden floor and there were five impressions of these homemade anchors, and

only two of them were recovered. And everyone said, Scott, where are the other three? And he said, Oh, I don`t know.

But you know, obviously, those burglars across the street didn`t break in and make those impressions and leave that cement dust all over. And by the

way, there was cement -- a little pebble of cement found in Scott`s home that investigators found.

BANFIELD: I think we have that picture. You know what, Dawna? Let me get our control room to pop that picture up. It`s a photograph that shows

sticky notes all over what looks to be a work bench. This was a work bench, sort of plywood put on top of the trailer, a work space. And you

can -- it`s hard to make out on TV, but if you look at all those evidentiary tags, you can almost see the outline of other round concrete

blocks as though they may have been in the making at some point.

[20:30:00] And they`re clear of dust in those areas. The dust is everywhere else, except those round spots that may or may not have been concrete

anchors. That`s what you`re talking about, right, Dawna?

KAUFMANN (via telephone): Exactly. And then something held Laci`s body underwater for four months, while it developed gas decomposition, until it

exploded.

BANFIELD: Yes. Robert Schalk, I want to bring you in. You`re a former prosecutor, so I know you probably hate this question. I`m going to ask you

anyway. How hard is it to overturn a case where a guy is on death row?

SCHALK: I would say one in a million or the chances of me winning the power ball this week which is half a billion dollars. You got to hope that Scott

Peterson is Jim Carrey in "Dumb and Dumber" where he is --

BANFIELD: So you`re saying there`s a chance --

SCHALK: Exactly.

BANFIELD: -- and it`s minuscule.

SCHALK: The issue you run into is appellate courts do not like overturning jury verdicts, number one. So they are going to have to rule that either

the evidence was clearly insufficient to establish the guilt. Two, there was juror misconduct which we haven`t heard anything about.

Three, the judge erred and doing something, we haven`t heard anything about that. And four, whether or not this new evidence that you have about this

documentary raises to the level of setting aside that verdict in order to be in trial.

BANFIELD: Right. I want to just make sure that everybody knows. We`ve been talking about this story because there`s a lot that is being unearthed.

There are lot of new discussions in the law that you debate and it`s all because of the murder of Laci Peterson, a special on A&E, 10:00 Eastern. It

airs on Tuesday night.

It`s a series. So, it`s not just tonight. You can continue to watch this series. And I think they`ve done some really interesting work. And it is

worth now, 12 years later, after very many deep breaths looking at all of this evidence, maybe through a different prism, maybe you`ll feel

differently.

Something else from 12 years ago. Young woman vanishes without a trace. And now there could be a break in that case. Are the remains found behind a

home human? In Aruba? Are they Natalee Holloway`s remains? Are we any closer to solving the question what happened to this beautiful young woman

from Alabama? We`re going to find out all about it next.

[20:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Twelve years ago, America first heart the name Natalee Holloway. Back then, she was introduced to us mostly through a high school photo,

that would eventually start looking more like a missing person`s poster.

And slowly we would come to know this young woman almost like a friend of one of our own kids who had mysteriously vanished while on a school trip to

Aruba. Back then, few, if any, of us could have predicted her disappearance would become one of America`s most unrelenting mysteries.

Now, a dozen years later, her father, Dave Holloway, may be on to something. He and a private investigator claim in a new series airing on

the Oxygen Network to have unearthed human remains on the island of Aruba.

What`s more, Dave Holloway said he was led to those remains on a tip from an informant, an informant named Gabriel. That informant said he had direct

knowledge of Natalee`s burial site from a friend named John. And John was the best friend of the prime suspect in the case, Joran van der Sloot.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Once, Gabriel gets John to New Orleans. His mission is to extract information from John as to his involvement in discovering

Natalee`s remains. What we`re doing is building a criminal case against him, OK? This is the most critical part of the investigation right here. If

we don`t get the confession as far as this lead is concerned, it`s done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: The Oxygen Network investigation has now piqued the interest of the Aruban authorities. A prosecutor there refuting Dave Holloway`s

evidence saying those bones belong to an animal. They don`t belong to Natalee. Dave Holloway says, they`ve already been tested and they prove

otherwise.

And now he`s awaiting something else, DNA testing to determine who those human remains belong to. No matter what the evidence, it all seems to lead

back to this one person, prime suspect Joran van der Sloot.

I want to bring in Deborah Pugatch. She is a former news producer who covered the Natalee Holloway case. You did so much work in Alabama where

Natalee`s family was from. And I know that we were all sort of engrossed in this story.

Sometimes the benefit of hindsight gives us a different prism to look through. I am wondering if you think this new possibility is any different

than all the other times we were led down this road and disappointed.

DEBORAH PUGATCH, NEWS PRODUCER WHO COVERED NATALEE HOLLOWAY CASE: You know, Dave Holloway said that this is the best piece of evidence that he has ever

had. But we`ve also -- we get our -- we get excited about the new evidence and then we`re told the evidence is not there. Do I think that this is one

of the better pieces? Absolutely. However, it`s one of those things we`ve been disappointed in the past before.

BANFIELD: We have. And I do want to read this from the Aruba public prosecutor because it`s become very complex and nonetheless confusing as

well. Dave Holloway said he`s had those remains tested and they`re human. The Arubans say not possible, they`re animal remains. And this is what the

Arubans have said. We did an investigation

[20:40:00] and during that investigation in 2017, police held investigation in area indicated by Mr. Holloway. In that area, we did not find human

skeletal remains. We have skeletal remains but not human, from animals. Don`t know which but not human.

It sounds a little convoluted but I think the message is fairly clear. And yet, the curious thing, Deborah, is that we have this Oxygen investigation

that has been going on for months and months and months. And it landed us to this part where we now get to know about this young man named John. And

how to get John on tape actually telling the story of why he knows or why he thinks he knows where Natalee is buried.

So, I want you to watch this moment if you will from this program that is going to air Saturday, seven to nine Eastern on Oxygen. It`s called "The

Disappearance of Natalee Holloway." This comes from their investigation. And this is that moment that sounds so tangential and orchestrated and yet,

it does bring that young man named John Ludwick, the key to this case into the story. Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first thing I`m going to do, I`m going to see how I feel him out. And I`m going to push to get out almost everything that day.

He`s a smart guy. You`ve got to beat him at his game. You`ve got to be smart how you do it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Honestly, I don`t think I`ll have a problem.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just, if there`s one person that could (bleep) this whole thing up is his girlfriend. The thing that kind of scares me a little

is that I don`t think she trusts me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does she already know he`s going to New Orleans?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, she knows.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The relationship between Gabe and the girlfriend concerns me. She doesn`t trust Gabe. I think she`s trying to protect John

from getting into any more trouble. John already has suspicions about Gabriel, and this whole thing could fall apart.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Of course, I would love to ask John all about that. And we did get a hold of John. And we asked John and this is what John answered. I

absolutely will not let any show discuss these alleged crimes with me unless I`m compensated for my time. I am willing to subject myself to this

because Aruba can`t charge without a written statement in Aruba. But since I am being seen in such a negative light, I won`t let myself out there like

that.

So that`s the response from the young man who Dave Holloway said ultimately led them to these remains. I want to bring in Joseph Scott Morgan if I can.

He`s a certified death investigator. I`m so curious about how there can be a discrepancy, Joseph, as to whether these are human remains or animal

remains. I mean, if Dave tested them and said they`re human, how can the Arubans say they`re not?

JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: I don`t know, that`s the big question. I think stepping back a bit, we have to ask, who conducted

this test? When forensic anthropologists are going through their training, Ashleigh, one of the things that they learn to do is to differentiate

between human remains and animal remains.

As a matter of fact, places like UT and the Body Farm down at Maple Center at the University of Florida, the students spend a long time going through

this type of training, to delineate this. They do it both with the unaided eye, that means handling them and examining them, doing comparative

skeletal analysis, and then they do it microscopically as well. It takes a trained eye to be able to do this.

BANFIELD: I`ll bet it does. It is such a curious development, that one organization actually on site says it knows what those bones are, and yet

the person closest to Natalee, dare say her dad, said he`s tested those remains and has the answer. He`s just waiting now, a couple more weeks, to

find out if the DNA matches Natalee.

Stand by if you will, Joseph. Natalee of course is not alone on that trip to Aruba. She was with a bunch of other teenagers. She just graduated high

school and they all went together. One of those young women is now telling the Oxygen Network about meeting Joran van der Sloot that night and the

last time she saw Natalee alive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JESSICA CAIOLA, FRIEND OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: I remember seeing Natalee in a white car driving away. The window was rolled down so we could see it was

her in the back of the car. My impression was, oh, great, she found a ride back to the hotel. That`s the last time I believe I saw her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[20:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: This is so hard to believe, but if Natalee Holloway were alive today, she would be almost 31 years old. Thirty-one. Maybe she would be

married. Maybe she would be a mom by now. For her classmates, the crime may be old, but that memory is not.

And yet the details of Natalee`s death and the location of her remains are as painfully unclear as ever. Listen to how Jessica Caiola describes to

oxygen.com the first time the group laid eyes on prime suspect Joran van der Sloot.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAIOLA: I remember seeing Joran van der Sloot at the casino at our hotel. That was the first time I saw him. And I remember chatter of him, like he`s

so cute, who`s going to hook up with him, those types of things were floating around.

That was probably the extent to which I got close to him. I definitely remember seeing him. I was playing blackjack. I don`t know what he was

playing, but he was there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Deborah Pugatch, Joseph Scott Morgan, and Robert Schalk are all back with me. Joe, I want to go back to you if I can for a minute because

when we learned that Dave Holloway and the private investigator

[20:50:00] he`s working with actually somehow have those remains in a facility in a lab in the United States, I kept thinking about the chain of

transfer. If they came from Aruba and they somehow came to the United States, wouldn`t the police have to be involved on either side of that

border if it`s a human remain? How does this all shake out in your science?

MORGAN: Wow, I`m an old forensics guy, Ashleigh, and I have to tell you, I`m a big proponent of not too many hands on the chain, if you will. And

that begs the question, how did these remains make it out of the country, if they did? Is the State Department aware of this? Did it come out in a

diplomatic pouch?

Is that plausible? Did some delivery service like FedEx or UPS take them out of the country? Or were they transported via an individual? And if

that`s the case, how did it pass Aruba customs and then through our customs subsequently?

BANFIELD: Is there a crime there that you know of? I mean, I just never really heard of somebody, you know, crossing a border with a body. I

haven`t heard of it. But who would -- what lab in your business, Joe, would take that, would say, I see you have a leg bone, I`m going to check that?

MORGAN: I don`t know. This is the only thing that I can think of, Ashleigh. Unless they submitted these things blindly to some lab, but again, you`re

talking about human remains. I think any, you know, valid DNA lab that`s out there that`s worth their salt is going to say, hey, where are these

coming from? Why are you asking me to test these?

BANFIELD: Probably the FBI, right? It`s odd, isn`t it?

MORGAN: Yes. And it takes a very specific skill set to extract DNA from bone. This is a very delicate procedure and I`m not saying it can`t be done

--

BANFIELD: Does it take a long time?

MORGAN: It doesn`t take as long as they`re saying because they`re saying these things have been going on for months now, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Yes. They just determined in the last two weeks or so that these are human remains. Let me jump in with Deborah for a minute. Do you have

any idea what the Arubans are saying about this? I`m just a little confused that they say, no, no, those are the bones of an animal.

However, if they are human, that`s the crime. What`s the disconnect? Are they trying to throw us off the scent? Are they embarrassed about this or

do they just not know what`s going on?

PUGATCH: Here is the question that I actually have. The remains that the informant directed the Holloways to, Dave Holloway, is it the same remains

that the Aruban prosecutor`s office got the remains from? Is it the same location? I don`t know, but I have read a report that if human remains were

sent to the United States or out of country from Aruba, that is illegal.

BANFIELD: All right. So, Robert Schalk, you`re the prosecutor here. I don`t know if you`ve ever seen a case like this, but has there been a crime

committed, either in Aruba or in America? Because I fill out those custom declarations all the time. I`ve never been asked if there`s a body in my

bag.

SCHALK: Agreed. However, are you tampering with physical evidence? Are you tampering with a potential crime scene? Are you committing a crime both in

Aruba and the United States? Number one, Aruba prosecutes, will the United States extradite? Number two, will the United States go after Dave Holloway

who is family is -- America is behind his family in his quest to find out who killed his daughter.

BANFIELD: Right. It would be unpopular.

SCHALK: It would be a very unpopular prosecution for sure.

BANFIELD: Since there has been so much despair for the Holloway family, when it comes to how the Aruban authorities have handled this, they haven`t

felt confidence in the Aruban authorities. They feel like they`ve been (INAUDIBLE) by the Aruban authorities.

SCHALK: Which is why they`re sending remains to the United States.

BANFIELD: Which would be the motive if you will, maybe to put them in a FedEx box or carry-on and off you go.

SCHALK: And another thing that we need to talk about is how did they get here. As we discussed earlier, were they sent in a FedEx box? Were they

smuggled in somebody`s suitcase? Were they --

BANFIELD: Someone has to sign something.

SCHALK: Correct. There`s going to be a trail. Did someone put their name on it? If so, whose name is on it? Is that person can be prosecuted?

BANFIELD: Deborah, real quick. I only have five seconds here. What are the odds? What are the odds that we`re actually going to get an answer as

whether this is Natalee or not?

PUGATCH: You know, my hope is it`s 100 percent sure that we will, but, you know, we`ve been through a lot.

BANFIELD: Joe, any thoughts there? You`re the science guy. I know you haven`t seen these samples, but what do you think?

MORGAN: Yes, I think it`s problematic, given how many people have touched this along the way. I know we`re running out of time, but there are other

missing people in Aruba other than Natalee Holloway. And if they disrupted a crime scene, this is big trouble because you don`t know who else is

missing out there.

BANFIELD: Bob, what do you think?

SCHALK: You hope that they get the answers they`re looking for. At the same time, if they committed a crime --

BANFIELD: It`s so tragic. And I feel so for the Holloway family. And I really do hope that this is an end in the chapter. Thanks to all of you. I

do appreciate it.

A mother and her daughter, very hands-on, it turned out, in their very successful massage business in the Florida suburbs.

[20:55:00] What police say was really going on inside the garage of these beautiful women. And why that business landed them both behind bars.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Mothers and daughters do things together all the time. Shopping and travel. You know, catching a bite to eat. But a mom and daughter`s

family business just outside of Sarasota was definitely not that. Police say what was really going on inside these two beautiful ladies` garage

actually landed them behind bars.

The undercover detectives say they caught them performing erotic massages for cash. Did I mention they`re mother and daughter? Anne Dodge and

Jennifer Dodge. Mother and daughter. Posting ads on backpage.com. Police say one of the ads talked about bringing you to a whole new level of

ecstasy or (INAUDIBLE), depending on how you look at this.

[21:00:00] The mom reportedly denies the allegations and say she`s a religious minister who, quote, performs laying of hands.

With that, thank you so much, Bob, for being here. Thank you, everyone for being here. We`ll see you back tomorrow here. In the meantime, stay tuned

for PRIMETIME JUSTICE.

END