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Trump continues feud with protesting NFL players; Pope Francis charged with spreading heresy; Royal decree allows Saudi women to drive; Warnings over UK police use of facial images; Christie's London auctions Hepburn treasures. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired September 26, 2017 - 15:00   ET




HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone. I'm Hala Gorani. We are coming to you live from London. He's been caught up in a

war of words, both home and away. And in the past hour, Donald Trump took the mic again in a news conference alongside Spain's prime minister.

Mr. Trump was asked why he's been focused on a feud with the NFL, the National Football League, while the American territory of Puerto Rico cries

out for help and while Mr. Trump did offer more support to the island today. It seems his NFL battle is still very much near the top of his



DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Well, I wasn't preoccupied with the NFL. I was ashamed of what was taking place because

to me that was a very important moment. I don't think you can disrespect our country, our flag, our national anthem.

To me the NFL situations are very important situation. I've heard that before about was I preoccupied, not at all. Not at all. I have plenty of

time on my hands. All I do is work and to be honest with you that's an important function of working. It's called respect for our country.

Many people have died, many, many people. Many people are so horribly injured. I was at Walter Reed Hospital recently and I saw so many great

young people and they are missing legs and missing arms and they've been so badly injured, and they were fighting for our country.

They were fighting for our flag. They were fighting for our national anthem and for people to disrespect that by kneeling during the playing of our

national anthem, I think is disgraceful.

So, I will also say that again I read you part of his quote, but the governor of Puerto Rico was so thankful for the great job that we are

doing. We did a great job in Texas, a great job in Florida, a great job in Louisiana.

We hit little pieces of Georgia and Alabama and frankly, we are doing -- and it's the most difficult job because it's on the island. It's on an

island in the middle of the ocean. It's out in the ocean.

You can't just drive you trucks there from other states and the governor said we are doing a great job. In fact, he thanked me specifically for

FEMA and all of the first responders in Puerto Rico.

And were also mentioning with that, the U.S. Virgin Islands. It was devastated. So, we are totally focused on that. But at the same time, it

doesn't take me long to put out a long and maybe will get it right.

I think it's a very important thing for the NFL to not allow people to kneel during the playing of our national anthem to respect our country and

to respect our flag. Thank you.


GORANI: Donald Trump was at the White House. He was hosting the Prime Minister of Spain, Mariano Rajoy. He was asked this as the first question

unsurprisingly by a Reuters reporter.

Let's discuss this and bring our political director, David Chalian and from New York, editor-in-chief of the "Daily Beast" and CNN contributor, John


So once again, the president, David Chalian, is doubling down on this. He must feel it's in his best interest to do so. Why is that?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: I think it's quintupling down by now, but yes, I -- he is clearly not equivocating at all, not backing away

from his position. He believes that this is clearly serving him well politically.

He is accomplishing some goal there, no doubt about staying in touch with his core supporters, but he believes he is on the right side of this. And

so, what I think is really interesting is at that press conference, at that joint appearance with the prime minister, when he came out, the first thing

he did before they got into the substance of their opening statements was to make a comment about Puerto Rico.

So, while he is not moving it on the NFL issue, I thought by just how he handled when he stepped into the microphone, he was already reacting to the

criticism he's been getting that perhaps he was a bit distracted from putting Puerto Rico front and center over the last couple of days.

GORANI: And we've prepared for our viewers the other major, major issue that the president has to deal with alongside picking fights with the NFL.

There's, of course, the North Korean nuclear crisis. There are the reports as well.

And the admission in fact that Jared Kushner and Ivanka, his daughter, have used private e-mails while conducting government business. There is also

Puerto Rico, which he mentioned.

There's the healthcare bill, which for all intents and purposes won't even be voted on, which is another big legislative defeat. John Avlon, is this

just the divergent for the president?

JOHN AVLON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I mean, to remind us all the picking fights with the NFL isn't part of the job description of president.

You know, he's been railing on the stump over and over criticizing Republicans in the Senate for not passing healthcare reform, repealing

Obamacare, as he'd say.

[15:05:05] And yet in this crunch period where they've been trying to resuscitate a bill, he's been busy picking fights with the NFL trying to

mischaracterize a protest and creating massive popular backlash to the extent that it's much more problem than it was before.

That item as seen by reporters basically dead now and that window has closed. Puerto Rico is an ongoing crisis of enormous proportions and there

are some questions of whether it will be his Katrina because you still got the vast majority without power and people still undiscovered.

A humanitarian crisis of massive proportions that they are deploying people too. The president will visit next week, but they are definitely

criticisms of too little too late, which he was responding to.

Over and over we've seen this president create self-inflicted distractions. He gets some comfort for them. He may like the short-term political high

he gets, but I think there are fundamental questions whether it does any good for the administration, his popularity or the country.

GORANI: I wonder though, David Chalian, because time and time again in the past, there have been scandals. There have been controversies emanating

from the White House or are perpetuated by the president of the United States. The question has always been will it hurt his popularity.

Fundamentally, it hasn't really dipped a bit, maybe in the mid-30s. It's back up to around 40 percent now. Will this be any different?

CHALIAN: No, I don't think -- I don't think this will be any different. I actually think this may shore up any diminution of support he's had among

his base, which hasn't been very much, but any little bit there just may help shore some of that up. I don't expect him to suffer some big backlash

from the American people with large --

GORANI: But this is the NFL, David, though? I mean, in Brazil they say football isn't a religion. It's more important than that. I mean, in the

U.S. sports are also in some ways just the major cultural institution for so many people. This isn't going to at all put a dent --

CHALIAN: They are, but there is a huge audience in this land for the argument that the president is making about patriotism. Now we can dissect

what he's doing here and say he is not actually trying to have conversation about that and get to what he's really doing here, Hala.

But I think we are misreading the American public if we think simply because the NFL is popular and the president is not and he's picking a

fight with them that the country is going to side with all the NFL players on this. I don't think it cuts quite that easily.

GORANI: And all those other big issues then, of course, there's the healthcare bill, which is the biggie because that was a campaign promise.

There have been many attempts. This looks like it's dead for all intents and purposes. What happens next there, John?

AVLON: Well, I mean, the windows closed for the Senate to pass healthcare reform with a simple majority. So, I think it needs to be considered that

long-standing promise which unify the Republican Party in opposition, they failed to unite around proposition.

And that is -- Obamacare will almost certainly remain the law of the land, although, it needs fundamental fixes and maybe it opens the door for

bipartisan reform that was being worked on by two senators before being tabled for this latest Republican push.

You know, but look passing this legislation has not been this president's strength or interest. He is busy attacking the leaders of his own party

pretty relentlessly and I think there does come a point where people start to wake up.

I do question whether getting in a fight with the NFL at such a critical period is going to end being good for his base and also let's not distract

ourselves from the fact that he's at historic lows in popularity.

This is not an administration or president that's in a good place when it comes to anything resembling uniting the nation and that's in large part

because that doesn't seem to be anything resembling an interest of his. He is much more interested in dividing than uniting.

GORANI: Yes. And David Chalian, one of the issues that interest our audience the most around the world is the new travel ban that has widened

to include two non-Muslim majority countries, North Korea and Venezuela.

Not many of the people -- officials of North Korea were traveling to the U.S. anyway so it seems a little bit more symbolic, but this didn't really

make any headlines. I wonder why?

The first one we saw big protests. The second one we saw lots of legal challenges. This one kind of just happened. It was the announcement came

and went.

CHALIAN: This is going to see some legal challenges as well. No doubt, and in fact has already affected how the Supreme Court was planning to hear

arguments on the previous travel ban case.

So, it sorts of sends people back to the drawing board in terms of the litigation. It's made some headlines, but when you're battling headlines

of the humanitarian crisis on Puerto Rico and the potential nuclear war with North Korea and a doomed healthcare bill that's been the central

palmist of this president and his party, it's tough for everything to breakthrough at the equal level.

[15:10:02] GORANI: All right. Thanks very much, David Chalian, our political director, and John Avlon, the editor-in-chief of the "Daily

Beast." Really appreciate your time this evening.

We discussed Puerto Rico. Well, President Trump says he will travel to Puerto Rico on Tuesday that's the earliest day he says he can do so. In

the last hour, Mr. Trump said his government would do far more to help the U.S. territory than anyone else.

But remember, Hurricane Maria hit the island on September 20th and the president has spent most of the last few days criticizing NFL players and

not spending much time on social media, at least mentioning Puerto Rico.

He did mention it once on Twitter to criticize the island's massive death. Here's how Congresswoman Nydia Velazquez responded to what the president

tweeted about her homeland.


REPRESENTATIVE NYDIA VELAZQUEZ, FIRST PUERTO RICAN WOMAN ELECTED IN U.S. HOUSE: He doesn't grasp the severity of the crisis in Puerto Rico. This

is catastrophic. It was a Category 4. It basically devastated the entire island. To the president again, if you don't take this crisis seriously,

this is going to be your Katrina.


GORANI: A U.S. representative in Washington there. The aftermath of this hurricane could be end up being far worse than Katrina, by the way, for

Puerto Ricans. Most of them still don't have power or phone service. They will not have any of that for months to come. Food and medicine are

desperately in short supply especially with so many roads impassable. Leyla Santiago reports.


LEYLA SANTIAGO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This woman doesn't even know who I am, but I'm the first person she's seen land here since

Hurricane Maria battered the island. The flood, the debris, the lack of power, all making already hard to get to areas even tougher to reach. Even

FEMA haven't set foot in some parts of Puerto Rico.

We took a chopper from San Juan to remote areas largely unseen like a small town next to the Guajadaca Dam on the north part of the island. The dam

has been breached and the government ordered 70,000 nearby residents to evacuate.

It is here in nearby (inaudible) where I was met with such emotion. The people starving for assistance.

(on camera): She says if something happens to that dam that could be just as bad as the hurricane itself.

(voice-over): Communications are so poor, many are asking us to send messages to their families. From the air you can see why, more than 3

million U.S. citizens could remain in the dark for months.

(on camera): This is the problem. This is why Puerto Rico 100 percent of the island doesn't have power right now granted the infrastructure was

vulnerable before Maria passed by, but you could see with these power lines down what the challenge is. They are completely collapsed.

(voice-over): Heading further inland toward (inaudible), the death toll is among the highest here. This is where we meet 56-year-old Rosaria Eredia

(ph). She is diabetic, just had surgery and is unemployed. Now she doesn't have a home either.

This is what Maria did to her home. Water spilling from every corner. By now, she thought help would have arrived. It hasn't.

(on camera): She called for someone will help her to be able to rebuild this.

(voice-over): Flying south to even more remote (inaudible). The roads are blocked forcing us to find another way to get this home. Coffee grower,

Gaspar Rodriguez and Doris Velez, tell us the problem here is food. Most of what they have left has gone bad.

(on camera): He says he's working, working, working and it's for nothing because he's lost everything.

(voice-over): A common theme on an island of 3.4 million U.S. citizens now waiting and hoping that help is underway.


GORANI: And that was Leyla Santiago reporting. You see the scale of the devastation. Let's turn to another one of our correspondents who is on the

story. Rafael Romo joins me live from San Juan.

So, first of all, talk to us. I know you've been covering the medical crisis and how some hospitals are actually losing patients because they

don't have the power, the machines, everything they need to tend to people and the patients.

RAFAEL ROMO, CNN SENIOR LATIN AMERICAN AFFAIRS EDITOR: Yes. Just to give you an idea about how dire the situation is here, Hala, I spoke a short

while ago with the director of a children's hospital here and he is very worried because he has 12 children on ventilators.

And he says that because there's no power, they rely on power generators. Well, there's a lack of diesel to run those generators. He said they had a

critical moment yesterday when they couldn't get diesel for about eight hours and they had to run those ventilators on batteries.

[15:15:08] Then they got a supply, but they only have enough diesel for today and tomorrow. Nobody really knows, nobody is really giving them

assurances that they'll be able to get more diesel.

I also talked to an 86-year-old woman whose kitchen exploded during the hurricane what happened there, well, the hurricane broke a gas line to her

kitchen. Gas accumulated, when she entered the kitchen, it exploded and she ended up suffering severe burns to her legs.

I also spoke with a young man who during the hurricane the front door of his house was blown open and he almost had his right arm broken. Those are

just a few examples, Hala. Just to give you an idea about the medical crisis that is unfolding here in Puerto Rico.

GORANI: Yes. We see it. Donald Trump who has been criticized by some for focusing too much on his spat with the NFL and not enough on Puerto Rico at

least on social media defended his response to the disaster saying Puerto Rico is in the middle of the ocean. I'm not sure that's geographically


But saying that it's difficult to get food and supplies and goods there. This is what he had say at a news conference a little bit earlier about

what officials have been telling him about Puerto Rico. Listen.


PRESIDENT TRUMP: As far as Puerto Rico is concerned, I think just the opposite. We have had tremendous reviews from government officials, as we

have in Texas and Louisiana, and as we have in Florida, as you know from Governor Scott, Greg Abbott, great governors. And this morning the

governor incredible statements about how well we are doing.


GORANI: Well, there you have it. I am wondering on the ground when you speak to ordinary Puerto Rican, what do they say about the federal

government's response to the disaster?

ROMO: There's a disconnect between what President Trump is saying and also what Governor Ricardo Rossello here on the island are both saying and it is

the following. They say that the supplies are here.

The cargo ships have arrived, but that help is not getting to the most affected communities. It is not getting there. We are still seeing the

long lines at gas stations. We are still seeing in people whose supplies are running low and worst still seeing people who are isolated and have not

received medical treatment since the storm.

It's been almost a week since Hurricane Maria happened and so there is a problem, distribution problem that they need to take care of immediately --


GORANI: Thank you. Rafael Romo is in San Juan, Puerto Rico. Some news just into to us, in the past few minutes here at CNN, in a different part

of the world, in the Middle East, Iraq's Kurdish leader is claiming a victory for the yes campaign after Monday's referendum on independence.

Nima Elbagir is in Erbil in Iraq and joins us now. So, what does this mean concretely now that it appears as though Kurds have voted for -- voted for


NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, that is the question of the hour. The hope was when they embarked upon this that this

would give the Kurdish president, (inaudible), a mandate to be able to turn to Iraq and negotiate.

But now the Iraqi government has made clear that they've -- the central Iraqi government has made clear that as far as they are concerned this

referendum is unconstitutional, illegal, and nonbinding.

And if anything, they want to take back from the Kurds the autonomy that they already have. What (inaudible) is calling for he says is respect. He

has congratulated the Kurdish people on not being intimidated on resisting as he is calling it.

And he is now calling on Baghdad to be a good neighbor, which I think really gives you a sense of the intent behind this. This clearly has set

out Kurdistan's (inaudible) as far as independence, as far as secession is concerned -- Hala.

GORANI: And what about the reaction from Iraq? We heard an MP yesterday saying we could even use force and they promise consequences. So is the

Kurds are saying, look, we voted for independence, like it or not it's going to happen. What can the Iraqi Central Government do about it?

ELBAGIR: Well, what the Iraqis have done is they've escalated things and they have announced that the Kurds have 72 hours so until 6 p.m. local time

on Friday to hand over control of their airport, their air space, the borders that they currently control.

And this is all happening while they -- the Iraqi Central Government and the Kurds are involved in a very delicate negotiation to allow the Iraqi

counterterror forces and the popular mobilized forces, the Shia militias access to (inaudible) for one of the final phases of the battle against


[15:20:08] This is at the worst possible time as far as the broader coalition against the terror group is concerned. But perhaps that is why

the Kurds are doing this now because they know that they are so key and they are so crucial in that fight that it's going to be very difficult for

Iraq to convince the U.S., the U.K., and the international community to back them in serious repercussive actions the Kurds.

But they do say that everything and anything is on the table to defend what they are calling the territorial integrity of Iraq -- Hala.

GORANI: All right. We'll check back in with you very soon. Nima Elbagir is live in Erbil in Northern Iraq.

Still to come tonight, insufficient progress is how the European Council is describing talks in Brussels right now. The latest on the bumpy road to

Brexit, next.


GORANI: No sufficient progress yet, it is the blunt assessment from the European Council head, Donald Tusk, after meeting with Theresa May at

Downing Street. He is talking, of course, about what else, Brexit and the talks that are ongoing in Brussels.

That's now been six months since Britain triggered Article 50 kickstarting what should be a two-year negotiating process. So really, you know, six

months, there is a year and a half left. We are a quarter of the way through.

Mr. Tusk told reporters there are still a lot more work to do.


DONALD TUSK, EUROPEAN COUNCIL PRESIDENT: As you know, we will discuss our future relations with the U.K. while there is so-called sufficient

progress. The sides are working and will work hard at it, but if you ask me and if today, member states ask me, I would say there is no sufficient

progress yet.


BOLDUAN: Meanwhile, across the channel, the French president, Emmanuel Macron, was laying out a grand vision of how he wants to see the European

Union work.

Let's go live to Paris. Jim Bittermann is there, our senior national correspondent. So, Emmanuel Macron, what is he saying about where he wants

this sort of E.U. minus the U.K. to go in the future?

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, just on the question of the U.K., Hala, he in fact said that he hopes that the U.K.

finds its place in Europe or along with Europe and that he's said it's hard to imagine Europe without the U.K.'s influence.

But that was very -- the very, very smallest part of the speech. It was a real stem winder, two hours long, probably the longest speech that he's

given as president.

[15:25:07] And in it, he outlined his view of Europe, how everything should be related to the pillars of sovereignty and democracy and unity and he

talked about every aspect of European life in very, very succinct terms, very specific terms about the economy, about migration, about education,

agricultural policy.

Just everything that you can imagine. He laid out his own ideas and he started off near top speaking about the kind of defaults that he saw in

Europe and the kind of things perhaps that they are talking about with the Brexit talks. Here's what he had to say on that.


EMMANUEL MACRON, FRENCH PRESIDENT (through translator): As I have done at all times before the French, I'm saying it today with my conviction

(inaudible). Europe is too weak to (inaudible), but only Europe can give us the capacity to act in the world having to deal with all the major world



BITTERMANN: In fact, there is a just a whole list of things that I couldn't -- I don't have the time to lay out, Hala, but the kinds of things

that he sees in the future whether the rest of the Europeans will go along with them.

A central prosecutor's office to deal with terrorism, a central asylum office to deal with asylum, carbon tax across Europe that would be imposed

at the borders, change in the agricultural policy, change in digital policy.

One of the things that he said he wants all French students by 2020 and all European students by 2024 to speak at least two languages, their own plus

another European language. So just in every respect this was the baseline of a speech of references they say something will be going back for the

next four and a half years of his presidency -- Hala.

GORANI: Interesting. And the two-language thing -- I mean, these days it has to be English if you want to be able to travel and be marketable. I

hate to say it so maybe he's also hinting at that, but the thing is his popularity, Emmanuel Macron, which was quite high after he won the

presidential election has dipped to around 40 percent.

That's Donald Trump's popularity rating, which is also historically low. What's going on there? Why have the French cooled on him so quickly?

BITTERMANN: It's just come up in the last couple days and there is a lot of explanations why. But it's come up four or five points in the last

couple of days. I don't know how this speech is going to play out because, of course, many of the people he ran against in the election were not

anywhere near as hot to give up sovereignty to Europe as he is.

He is clearly making a path here forward that he believes that whether he is popular or not, he is going to go towards Europe. Now one of the things

he did say was that Europe imposed on the people is not going to work.

So, it has to be something that is brought about from the roots up and so he's proposed six months across Europe of reflection by countries who want

to join into this process, reflection about what Europe should be and then talk about all the problems openly and frankly, and then bring them into

the discussion.

He said countries that want to join this can join it. If they don't want to join it then they don't have to, the European nations. Kind of saying

that he is expecting a two speed Europe to develop here -- Hala.

GORANI: Interesting. All right. Thanks very much. A very ambitious set of goals. Jim Bittermann live in Paris.

Coming up, we'll speak to a former American football player as President Donald Trump continues to attack athletes who protest on the field.

Later, a group of conservative (inaudible) have accused Pope France of, quote, "Spreading heresy." We'll discuss the charges and what they mean.

It hasn't happened since the 1300. Stay with us.


HALA GORANI, CNN HOST, THE WORLD RIGHT NOW: President Donald Trump is a man who tends to fixate on particular issues. For instance, right now, the

US football players, who kneel during the national anthem before games.

It started as a personal act of protest by one athlete. But fueled in part by Mr. Trump's criticism, the quiet protests have now grown into a league-

wide movement. President Trump's critics say he is too preoccupied with this issue. He unsurprisingly disagrees.


DONALD J. TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I wasn't preoccupied with the NFL. I was ashamed of what was taking place because, to me, that was a

very important moment.

I don't think you can disrespect our country, our flag, our national anthem. To me, the NFL situation is a very important situation.

I've heard that before about was I preoccupied. Not at all, not at all. I've plenty of time on my hands. All I do is work. And to be honest with

you, that's an important function of working. It's called respect for our country.


GORANI: Let's get an insider's perspective. My guest is someone who spent plenty of time on the football field, former player Walter Dunson, former

NFL player. He joins me now live from Atlanta.

And, Walter, I want to tell our viewers that the players who do kneel and lock arms, or whatever form of protest they choose, always insist that

they're not disrespecting the anthem or the flag that they're protesting instead racial injustice.

So, my question to you is how do you react to the president saying that this is basically disrespecting veterans, the military, and the flag?

WALTER DUNSON, FORMER NFL PLAYER: Well, like I said, it is a hard conversation to have. The president - it's amazing that we have the

president of the United States of America telling citizens of the United States of America not to exercise their First Amendment rights.

No, I think these guys have every right to protest as long as they're doing it in the way they are doing it, in peace, not causing any problems or harm

to anybody. And these guys are just exercising their First Amendment right.

GORANI: Yes. But you saw - and by the way, obviously, you saw that Jerry Jones, the owner of The Dallas Cowboys, also kneeled before the anthem, it

has to be said. Here is some of that footage.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: - to separate from the National Anthem. John.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) as they take a knee collectively, boos can be heard.


GORANI: And those were some ESPN commentators. Walter, they were booed quite roundly. I think they were playing in Arizona. What did you make of

Jerry Jones joining his players in kneeling?

DUNSON: Well, like I said the other day, the NFL is a business. It's definitely a business first. Jerry Jones is smart enough to know that this

is a time where owners need to come together to show support of their players. They do not want to look like they're separate or have another

agenda, other than what the guys are doing right now.

But I will also say that it is interesting to see what's going to happen beginning next week. This was somewhat anticipated, the response from

owners and team organizations or whatever. This was somewhat anticipated that this will be the response this week. Well, last Sunday, that is.

But, moving forward, I just wonder how owners and the teams will respond moving forward. Would there be other demonstrations from the team

leadership on Sundays on the sidelines or will we go back to the same players only in silent protests.

GORANI: And, Walter - and you mentioned, rightly so, that first and foremost, and it's the case with professional sports, by the way, all over

the world, including football in Europe and elsewhere, that this is a business.

[15:35:09] But we've been seeing on social media some remarkable footage of fans burning their jerseys. Some of them are Pittsburgh Steeler jerseys,

others are jerseys from other teams.

I just want to show our viewers some of these images. So, therefore, do you think that even though this is such a huge cultural institution in the

United States, the NFL, that it could hurt the bottom line?

DUNSON: I will tell you that the bottom line is a huge bottom line. I'll be very honest with you in saying that. We're talking about in the

billions, we're talking about into the trillions of dollars.

I saw on social media that a lot of people saying they're going to boycott the NFL by not watching their games on Sundays.

Well, you're not really having an effect on the NFL by not watching the game on Sundays. You're really just missing a good football game. Because

at the end of the day, the NFL, the brand is a business that's funded by sponsorship dollars, as we all know, and things that the marketing

department is able to get for the brand and also for the local team.

But I also would tell you that we have - one of the problems, we have two different groups of people. We have two extremes. We have one group one

side saying I want 100 percent of what I want. We have another group on the other side saying I want 100 percent of what I want.

And nobody has decided to just come to the middle. The only way that you come to the middle is just by having a conversation. And I think that's

why we have to find - we have to position ourselves for that conversation.

GORANI: But what would the middle look like, I wonder? I mean, in the end, these are professional athletes. It started with Colin Kaepernick

protesting, obviously, police violence and racial injustice and he - where does the conversation need to take place? Is this a national thing?

DUNSON: And this is a great question. This is a great question. And I've started already putting together a team of people to begin this

conversation because there has to be a conversation. And I do think the conversation should still be a national conversation as well.

I've led a group before. You're having a conversation as it pertains to policing the African-American communities in Carrollton, Georgia.

But I look to lead another opportunity now, a national movement and being able to have this conversation as it pertains to sports and politics and

having professional ball players or even collegiate level ball players and their coaches and administrators be a part of that conversation as well and


GORANI: I wonder - would you - Walter, would you have taken a knee, do you think, during your professional playing days?

DUNSON: That's a great question. Someone asked me that the other day and the honest answer for me right now is I don't know. I really don't know.

GORANI: But why not, I guess, is the question because some people might be watching and saying it's peaceful protest, all the teammates, in particular

- some teammates - the entire team, save for one person did it, including the owner. Who would speak against it?

DUNSON: Well, for me, I want to make a decision I think is the right decision in my point of view, the way that I think, the way that I process.

I've never been a bandwagon type guy. I never want to be a bandwagon type guy, but I do the support, in this particular case.

I do support Kaepernick and his decision. And it's probably - if I was playing today, at the end of the day, I probably would make the decision to

take a knee me as well.

But it really is a hard question to answer because, again, it's a hypothetical and you really don't know until you're in that situation.

But if I was there today, I probably would be one of those guys that did take a knee, probably at the end of the day, after a long conversation and

discussing it with my teammates as well as the coaching staff.

GORANI: I just have one last question and then we have to go unfortunately, but do you think, as some people have said, that President

Trump is targeting successful, wealthy African-Americans - in this case, African-American athletes when he wouldn't have directed this vitriol at

white Americans in similar positions?

DUNSON: Well, the only thing I can say is that so far his target has been successful African-American athletes. I don't recall seeing him making any

comments to anyone else outside of the African-American community to this degree.

GORANI: All right. Thank you very much. Walter Dunson, a former NFL player, joining us live from Atlanta. We really appreciate your time.

Thank you.

DUNSON: Thanks for having me.

GORANI: All right. In a letter recently made public, several dozen Catholic scholars and clergy have accused the worldwide leader of the

church Pope Francis of spreading heresy.

The letter does not accuse the Pope himself of being a heretic, but of supporting heretical positions on marriage, morality and the Eucharist.

Pope Francis has not responded yet for this letter, which was delivered to him back in August. More than 60 prominent conservative Catholics signed

the charges. Many of them have split from the church in the past.

[15:40:04] CNN's senior Vatican analyst John Allen, who's also the editor of Crux, joins me live from Rome with more. So, John, as I was telling our

viewers before this last commercial break, this hasn't happened since the 1300s. What's going on?

JOHN ALLEN, CNN SENIOR VATICAN ANALYST: Well, I mean, the signatories of this letter, Hala, said this hasn't happened since 1333. What they mean

is, nobody has written a letter accusing the Pope of doctrinal error and called it a filial correction.

I mean, the truth about it is Popes get letters accusing them of blowing it on doctrine and on foreign policy and on liturgy and cannon law, like all

of time, like every other world leader. So, frankly, I think there's a little bit of self-promotion and self-inflation there.

I mean, it's certainly is significant, I think, that a group of - well, originally, it was 40, then it became 62, now there has been a retired 94-

year-old bishop in the United States, who has joined his name to the letter. So, we're now at 63.

A group of 63 people have felt the Pope is going badly enough off the rails that they have to accuse him of propagating heresy and sign their names to


But on the other hand, if you look at who those 63 people are, there aren't any real surprises there. I mean, many of these people are close - if not

they are actual members of - close to the traditionalist Society of Saint Pius X, which actually broke with the Catholic Church in the aftermath of

the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s over their objections to a number of liberalizing reforms.

Many of these people, Hala, have been critics of Pope Francis since day one. So, I think the right way to look at this letter is that it may

indicate that the opposition to Francis is hardening, but I do not believe, in itself, it indicates that it is spreading.

GORANI: And is it unusual that the Pope himself, Pope Francis, has not responded to this and do you think he will?

ALLEN: I guess, my message there would be don't hold your breath. More than a year ago, four retired cardinals - and, remember, there's only one -

now, there are two, but there's only one Catholic bishop in good standing who signed this letter.

More than a year ago, four cardinals signed a letter that covered much of the same ground. I mean, they didn't actually use the H word. They didn't

suggest heresy was going on, but they said the Pope was promoting great confusion and scandal and so on.

And they submitted a list of five questions, technically known as dubia, that they wanted him to answer and to date he hasn't answered that.

I think, first of all, Popes, in general, do not engage stuff like this. It is seen as unseemly. They allow their subordinates to do it. And, in

general, I think Francis' leadership style is that he tries to take note of the opposition and blowback he arouses, but he also tries very hard not to

be slowed down by it.

So, I don't think the wise move here would be for us waiting around for a rapid response to this letter from Pope Francis.

GORANI: Thank you very much, John Allen, reporting live - or joining us live from Rome.

All right, I have some breaking news coming in to us at CNN. And it is quite significant because of how long this has been a major topic of

discussion in Saudi Arabia.

A Royal Decree has just been issued that will allow women in Saudi Arabia to drive. That is according to the Saudi foreign ministry.

Now, just as a reminder, obviously, women are legally not entitled to drive. There are many limitations in that country on their movement,

leaving the country, for instance, traveling from one point to another point inside of Saudi Arabia, not being able to drive a vehicle, means that

they often have to be driven or be accompanied, especially when it comes to leaving the country by a male guardian.

This is coming to us from the Saudi press agency and it was a Supreme Order that was issued in Saudi Arabia today, which reads as follows.

"We refer to the negative consequences of not allowing women to drive vehicles and the positive aspects of allowing it to do so, taking into

consideration the application of the necessary legal controls and adherence to them."

So, this is a very significant development in a country, Saudi Arabia, that is going through a significant transformation. This means that the

clerical, the religious establishment, which would be opposed to this move has certainly not had its way when it comes to women driving in Saudi


[15:45:06] There is a new Crown Prince, a 32-year-old Mohammed bin Salman, who is the son of King Salman, who is the youngest defense minister in the

world and who is someone who is certainly seen as, outside of the borders of Saudi Arabia, as rather hawkish with involvements in Yemen and

elsewhere, but inside of the country we're seeing here a significant - potentially significant development with women allowed to drive in Saudi

Arabia, according to this - according to this - what are they calling it - Supreme Order issued in the country.

We will get much more on the story when we hear it. Stay with CNN, we'll be right back.


GORANI: We are here in London, one of the most surveilled cities in the world. That isn't just cameras. Authorities have millions of facial

images on searchable databases that could include innocent people, who had their image taken while in custody, for instance.

Here's an example. You'll remember the attack on Parsons Green in London. We covered that extensively. Police later arrested a 21-year-old man. I

won't say his name because he was apparently later released, but it was widely reported in the media. Police then said that a 21-year-old was let

go without charge. So, it is possible that, even though he was released, police could still have images of him on file.

My next guest has warned about the use of these facial images. Paul Wiles is the UK's biometric commissioner and he joins me here in the studio.

Thanks for being with us. So, what are your concerns?

PAUL WILES, UK BIOMETRICS COMMISSIONER: Well, my concerns are that what we're talking about here are second-generation biometrics.

The first generation were DNA and fingerprints. They've been very useful to policing. They've been very useful to counterterrorism. But,

obviously, they're very intrusive of individual privacy.

And for that reason, they've been regulated by law overseeing and all the rest of it. The trouble is we've got a new generation of biometrics -

facial images, voice recognition, vein recognition.

GORANI: But gathered how?

WILES: Gathered either by the police when they arrest people or are gathered by listening or whatever it is. They're gathered in various ways.

GORANI: Surveillance?

WILES: Surveillance in some form. Could be. The problem is that legislation has not kept up with this new generation of biometrics. So,

the existing legislation only covers DNA and fingerprints, not this second generation.

GORANI: How many are we talking about? Like, for instance, facial images on file? What we are taking, millions?

WILES: Yes. My best guess at the moment is the police are holding somewhere near 20 million facial images.

GORANI: And this could include people who have been arrested, not charged and later released?

WILES: It could, yes.

GORANI: And how would someone go about getting this image or this data deleted or removed?

WILES: Under new regulation that has just been put in place, individuals can apply to the police if they've not been found guilty to have their

image deleted and the regulations say there must be a presumption that the police will delete, but they needn't necessarily delete. If the police

don't delete or if they don't apply, then they will keep it for six years before they review it.

[15:50:08] GORANI: What about people who have never been arrested? I can say I haven't been - yet maybe, I don't know - but what happens to them?

Are there files of my face maybe passing through a border point somewhere? Am I on file anywhere basically?

WILES: OK. Let's talk about policing, first of all. As far as policing is concerned, your image will only be taken on arrest. So, you've got to

at least have been arrested. Now, you may not, of course, have been found guilty.

As far as borders are concerned, of course, yes, facial images are used at borders because if you've been through an airport anywhere in the world,

you'll probably find that your passport is being compared via a camera with your face to check that you are the person on the passport. So, yes,

images are used on the passport. So, yes, images are used at -

GORANI: But is that stored?

WILES: Sometimes, it's stored; sometimes it's not.

GORANI: How do we know if it isn't?

WILES: It varies from country to country.

GORANI: And here in the UK?

WILES: Well, in the UK, mainly what it's used for is against what's called a watch list. In other words, where we have people that we have concerns

for, which means the police probably have their images already. Then, of course, the border control are looking for those individuals.

GORANI: There were reports that, for instance, police during the Notting Hill Carnival were using face recognition technology in a big crowd, for


WILES: Yes. What the police were doing at the Notting Hill Carnival was an experiment. They were trying to find out whether you could use facial

image technology to find an individual in a crowd.

Now, that's the most difficult use of facial imaging and that's why they're doing the experiment. What I said at the time was I thought that was

acceptable, but we now need to see the results of that trial.

GORANI: What - do you think - I mean, this is a technology that's probably - there are probably mistakes. Have their mistakes - have mistakes been

made when the wrong face was recognized, the wrong person was identified and then what do you do?

WILES: Well, this depends on what it's being used for?

GORANI: Yes. In policing, for instance.

WILES: Well, the matching rate for facial images, if it's used under reasonably controlled conditions - for example, in airports - the matching

rates are very high. The false rates are very low. That technology has improved enormously in the last ten years.

That is less so if you start looking for an individual in a crowd. There, we're not sure how good the match rate is. Now, that's why I think it's

acceptable for the police to do an experiment as long as they evaluate that and publish the results of that experiment.

GORANI: Paul Wiles, thanks so much for joining us. We really appreciate your time on CNN. We'll be right back after a quick break. Stay with us.


GORANI: Known for her classic movies and her iconic fashion, Audrey Hepburn was one of Hollywood's biggest stars. Decades after her death, we

have a unique insight now into her closet. Here is Nick Glass.



NICK GLASS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): "Clothes are positively a passion with me," confided Audrey Hepburn in 1953. "I love

them to the point where it's practically a vice."

And naturally, she looked rather good in practically everything, especially if the label was couture. Christie's London auction offers a wide

selection from her personal wardrobe.

ADRIAN HUME-SAYER, HEAD OF SALE, DIRECTOR PRIVATE COLLECTIONS, CHRISTIE'S: We've Givenchy, Ralph Lauren, Valentino, Givenchy, Givenchy, Andre Laug,

Givenchy, and Valentino.

GLASS: A careful steam to get some of those last wrinkles out. Some of these clothes have been hanging in storage in Los Angeles for a while. And

this isn't just any little black cocktail dress. It's one created for the movie "Shirad" in 1963. It's expected to make $100,000 or more.

[15:55:01] SEAN HEPBURN FERRER, AUDREY HEPBURN'S SON: I think that she's considered, and people feel, as though she's one of us. She's that girl

across the landing that puts the little black dress on and goes out and conquers the world.

GLASS: Audrey Hepburn had two sons. Sean by her first marriage to the actor Mel Ferrer and Luca by her second marriage to an Italian psychiatrist

Andrea Dotti.

The half-brothers have made their living from their mother's image and estate. They'll divide the profits from the sale 50-50.

LUCA DOTTI, AUDREY HEPBURN'S SON: It's like when you're selling a house, you're ready for it. You're moving forward. But you don't want

necessarily to be there when the new owners move in with their own furniture. It's like - it's like that.

HEPBURN: How do I look?

GLASS: Swell is the answer.

Did Audrey Hepburn ever take a bad photograph? Here are some of her contact sheets from a "LIFE" magazine shoot when she was making "Sabrina"

in 1953. Along with her photographic archive, the sale includes old scripts, plays and movies, some signed and some with her scribbles.

CAITLIN GRAHAM, FILM MEMORABILIA CONSULTANT, CHRISTIE'S: So, here is a lovely annotation in pencil about Carey Grant, which reads, dark eyes, dark

hair, going gray, actually. You see he's not young, but he's not too old either. In good physical shape, I'd say. Which is lovely to get her

thoughts on him.

GLASS: Audrey Hepburn retained such a level of celebrity that it's hard to put a price on her belongings. Who knows what a devoted fan will pay for

her Burberry trench coat, her Cartier lipstick holder and powder compact, a pair of her sunglasses, the only pair on offer here.

The director Billy Wilder expressed it better than most. "God kissed the cheek of Audrey Hepburn and there she was." And here she is now or at least

a lot of her things, almost 500 lots to be precise, all looking for a new home.

Nick Glass, CNN, at Christie's in central London.


GORANI: I'm Hala Gorani. Thanks for watching. "Quest Means Business" is coming up next on CNN.