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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield
Addict Says Video of His Overdose Saved His Life; Cheerleader Burned Alive; Mom Under Fire; Twisted Plot Uncovered; Baseball Suit. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired October 11, 2017 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s unconscious right now. She`s got very shallow breathing.
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HOST, (voice-over): Bonded by addiction, two moms-to-be meet in rehab.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: i have two overdoses and two babies in the back.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you want your pacifier?
BANFIELD: Soon after, police say, they OD`d while snorting heroin in an SUV with their brand-new babies in the back seat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) CPR because she quit breathing.
RONALD HIERS, RECOVERING HEROIN USER: I`ve been addicted to heroin for 24 years.
BANFIELD: One long-time addict turns a near-death experience into a life- changing moment.
HIERS: The things you`ve become since committing to living a sober life.
BANFIELD: Inside America`s heroin problem as the human toll rises.
Burned alive beyond recognition.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Horrific burns over 93 percent of her body.
BANFIELD: And left for dead in her torched car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were expecting it to be just a normal car fire. You know, put it out, extinguish it, you know, it`d be done.
BANFIELD: Were a cheerleader`s final words the killer`s name?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She said, Eric set me on fire.
BANFIELD: A jury is deciding whether the murderer is the man on trial.
Home alone, and totally out of control.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All of her sitter options fell through. She left the kids in the care of the two 12-year-olds.
BANFIELD: Police say a mom leaves her four children, the youngest just 6, all alone with a gun.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were confused about what was happening.
BANFIELD: While she takes a European vacation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What were you doing in Germany?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As soon as I found out about it, I made the trip down to Johnson (ph) and picked them up right away.
BANFIELD: But now Mom is posing for a very different kind of snapshot.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Four counts of child endangerment.
BANFIELD: Smile! You`re definitely on camera.
To catch a predator, a man accused of traveling halfway across the country to have sex with a 9-year-old girl. Police say he brought candy and
lubrication and described the vile acts he planned. He was even ready to meet the parents. Gotcha! Those parents were really cops waiting to put
him away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Good evening, everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. This is PRIMETIME JUSTICE.
Night after night. reports come screaming across your television screen about America`s opioid epidemic, and night after night, we bring you
another story that`s worse than the last. And I hate to tell you I got another one for you. But this one is a two-fer, a pair of moms in Florida
who police say bonded while in rehab, what with their due dates within a week of each other. Video shows them allegedly overdosed on heroin with
their babies, both of their babieds, in the back of the SUV, one just a month old, the other just two months old in the back seat.
Officers say June Shwinert (ph) managed to call 911 saying her friend Kristen O`Connor (ph) was having a seizure.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. (INAUDIBLE) I think my friend just had a seizure. She`s, like, out.
911 OPERATOR: You say you think she`s having a seizure?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah. Either that-- I don`t know, yeah. It looks like she`s having a seizure. Oh, God!
(CROSSTALK)
911 OPERATOR: Is she breathing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, look up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you pull your head up? (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Listen, Kristen! Hey!
911 OPERATOR: I mean, is she breathing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) can you hear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, Kristen! Hey!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) somebody.
911 OPERATOR: I`m trying to get some more information from you. Is she breathing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Emergency responders arrived and began treating the moms. And here`s what a police officer`s body camera was witnessing the minute they
got on the scene.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s going on?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I got two overdoses and two babies in the back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was parked next to them, and I--
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought I was going to give her CPR because she quit breathing. I don`t know. The one was trying to call somebody. I don`t
know if there`s drugs involved or not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. How`s she doing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re both out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think Narcan (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You want your pacifier? Here you go.
[20:05:06]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There you go. Yeah! Hi! Yeah. OK. It`s OK. It`s OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: The officers say the women relapsed once their babies were born. Both of those women have been charged now with child neglect. Those kids
are in the care of other family members, and we`re just left with those images and the sounds of those crying babies. Not sure if they were just
upset or if they were hungry, maybe both, 1 month old and 2 months old together with moms in the front seat out of it.
Does releasing pictures like that and releasing video like that of people OD`ing, one worse than the other, does this help? Does it get the message
out there? Or does it hurt? Does it revictimize those people all over again once they come to and maybe get with the program?
Well, I want you to meet one man whose overdosing video went viral. You have likely seen it and probably not just once. He said releasing that
video-- that saved his life.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) passed out.
RONALD HIERS, RECOVERING HEROIN USER: That`s what so many people missed about it. You know, those were two human beings apparently in a treatment
center. I`m 61 years old. I`ve been addicted to heroin for 24 years.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) I don`t believe it. (INAUDIBLE)
HIERS: That is my wife of 24 years. She`s a beautiful person, if you only knew her. That is me. That`s me as far down as one could possibly sink.
It feels like I`m watching the most powerful thing I`ve ever seen. When I saw it on the news, I knew it was me. You have to hit your rock bottom.
And for me, that was mine. It really shocked me to my core. There`s no compassion.
COURTLAND GARNER, RECORDED VIDEO: I don`t deal with people on drugs like that. I know the kids be on social media. I want the kids to see the
video, and they`ll be like, you know, Damn. I don`t need no drugs! Look at them guys.
HIERS: There`s no animosity in my heart for that man. He did not put myself nor my wife in that position. We put ourselves there.
They played the video over and over and over. The humiliation and the embarrassment that we received didn`t matter. My family had to be
embarrassed like that. I can`t say enough how sorry I am!
The video was the best thhing that happened to me. It got us in a position to get help, to get cared for. Care at the treatment facility, Common Day,
is wake up around 6:30. We go to gym class after that. There are some kids down there that I beat up on in ping-pong and basketball. I
intentionally surrounded myself by young people because God knows I don`t want (INAUDIBLE) boys and girls to go down the same path.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Ronald Hiers, the man in that video, joins me now live from Memphis. Ronald, thank you so much for joining us. And I should tell our
audience that you`re almost-- I mean, it`s a year. It`s an anniversary of sorts. October 3rd of last year was when that video, you know, was taken
and when your life completely changed. Luckily, you are with us, and that, you know, luckily you survived this.
But I want to ask you about videos like this in general because we`re airing a lot of them. And news organizations all around the country are
airing a lot of them. A lot of people think they do a lot of good, and other people think otherwise. And you say this saved your lives. Having
these images of your wife and you, this saved your life. How?
[20:10:00]HIERS: Well, had that video never been shot, I would have gotten back home and I would have continued on down that same path I was on to
trying to kill myself because that`s where I was at in my life. I didn`t want to quit doing drugs, but I didn`t want to live anymore. So I was
trying to commit suicide by overdose, and had several times. But I just was unsuccessful.
BANFIELD: After so many years-- I mean, 40 years, by your own admission, of being addicted and of being a drug addict. Why was it just this video
that got you clean? Because, you know, clearly, you`d come close a lot to dying. Why weren`t those the wake-up calls? Why was this finally the
wake-up call? Was it the humiliation, or was it something else?
HIERS: It was-- it was my bottom. The literature I read from these days, that`s the first time I`ve taken a look at my life and admitted just how
unmanageable it was and how powerless I was to overcome an addiction.
You know, I was just-- I was a drug addict, and that`s the way it was going to be, and I was a criminal and that`s the way it was going to be, and I
was an alcoholic and that`s the way it was going to be. So I never thought anything different.
But one of my daughters reached out to me, and she saw that video on her birthday. And she contacted an addiction campus`s hot line and reached out
to them and told them that that was her father on that video. And they said that they would scholarship me to go into the rehabilitation center,
if I was willing. And she didn`t even know where her daddy was. And she was 34 years old when that video was shot and I was 60. And that`s part of
addiction. She didn`t know where her father lived. She had to call me just to find out my address.
BANFIELD: It`s unbelievable that she saw this viral video along with millions and millions of other people all around the world on her birthday.
You know, the man who shot the video, it was clear-- you could hear him laughing as he`s witnessing the two of you overdosing. He says someone
else had already called 911. But there`s two things at play, Ronald. He`s laughing at it all, and he`s humiliating the two of you. And at the same
time, he`s saying, I know that kids watch social media and they`re going to see these two and think, I don`t want to be like them and I don`t want to
do that stuff. Do you agree? Do you think he`s right in that respect?
HIERS: I don`t-- really, I shouldn`t even comment on it one way or the other. You know, it was his choice. We all make choices in life. That`s
what God gave us the freedom of choice. And that was his. And so you know, from my perspective, I wouldn`t have done it. But then again, I know
how to handle situations as such. He might not have, you know. So I make no judgment on him. I met the man. And I met his girlfriend. And they
seem like real, real nice people. So--
BANFIELD: Can I ask you something, Ronald?
HIERS: --I can`t say anything bad about him.
BANFIELD: You know ,we`re all coping-- I ran your story. Before I now have had a chance to meet you, I ran your story on this program, on this
network. And you know, we-- we talked about how this is such a crisis. How are we going to get our heads around this? How is America going to
bounce back from this opioid epidemic?
You bounced back. Can this country bounce back? Do you have any hope that we can actually fix the mess that`s out there?
HIERS: Well, I`m a firm believer in several things. One, that it-- it should have been addressed along ago. The heroin problem isn`t just now an
epidemic. It`s been around. But the people that it affected years back-- and I mean, like I said, I got my first bag of heroin in 1972. So there
was an epidemic been around for years. It`s just now reached out into the middle class neighborhoods.
You know, these people in these $250,000, $300,000 homes, when it touches their kids, you know, or their husbands or their wives or-- well, now it`s
time to do something about it-- because people before, it didn`t matter, you know. But because you can`t arrest your way out of the problem because
for every one drug dealer you put in jail, there`s 15 or 20 more, as sad as it is, that`s willing to take their place.
BANFIELD: Ronald, stand by--
HIERS: I believe we got to start--
BANFIELD: Stand by for one minute because--
HIERS: Go ahead.
BANFIELD: --I think you really hit on something. I think you`ve really hit on something. I want to bring Brad Lamn into our conversation. He`s
an addiction specialist. He`s the founder of Breathe Life Healing Center--
BRAD LAMM, ADDICTION SPECIALIST: Hey, Ashleigh.
BANFIELD: --and he`s live tonight in Los Angeles. Brad, thanks for doing this. I hope you`re able to hear everything that Ronald is saying. I know
you`ve seen that video and many more like it. But I want to ask you--
[20:15:00]LAMM: Yeah. And lived it.
BANFIELD: And lived it. Exactly. I want to ask the specifics about the publicity. There are a lot of people in this country who say this is the
kind of thing that snaps people to attention and gets resources to communities and proves the problem has a face for first time.
There are others, Brad, who say this is humiliating and it revictimizes these people. And there`s Ronald, who`s clean and sober for over a year,
and he`s got to live with that video and see it over and over again for the rest of his life.
LAMM: But I got to tell you, Ronald, I`m so proud of you. I watch that video, and then I see you talking and I hear this amazing story of hope and
recovery. You got your first dope in 1972, and you are a walking miracle. And that tells me that treatment does work. People can get better. And
there`s hope to be had in the darkest of situations.
But I hear your point, too, Ashleigh, that the reason why we watch these things sometimes is because there`s such a spectacle to it. But with 144
people dying every day of overdose in America, 144 people that we love and care about and want to hold close-- the idea that we`re either going to
laugh or cry I think is the impulse. So when I heard that guy laughing, I was, like, sometimes we laugh because we don`t know what to do. But maybe
if we treat the people that we love who are struggling like that 5-year-old that`s having trouble with balance or just learning how to ride a bike, and
when they fall down and it doesn`t work out, we help them get back on, and we`re going to support them in it and not shame or blame them. Wouldn`t
that be great?
So I think good comes out of this, Ashleigh. And Ronald, I am so happy for you.
BANFIELD: Ronald, you can hear Brad, right?
HIERS: I can hear him. Yes, ma`am, I can. I appreciate you-- those kind words of encouragement. It`s people like you that keep me marching
forward. But you know-- Brad was it?
LAMM: Yes, sir. Look, and I`m clean and sober almost 15 years. So you know, we share some of the same language and concept of recovery, too. I
can tell by just hearing you talk.
BANFIELD: Can I ask both of you, since you both brought this up-- I`m going to start, if I can, with you, Ronald. Are you afraid-- are you
afraid of heroin because it has a death grip on a lot of people, and relapse is regular. You`re sober and you`re out of it and you`re past that
video for over a year now. Are you afraid you may end up in that video again, or at least something like it?
HIERS: No, ma`am. No way, shape, form or fashion am I afraid of heroin or any other drug or any other alcohol. My life`s been turned around
completely. And I can say that, but I paid one heck of a price to get to where I`m at in my recovery. I did it for so long, you know, that I was
tired. I was tired, you know? And that`s the thing about it. I don`t care what rehab you go to or how much money you spend on it, you have to
want to recover before you can. And that`s the sad thing about this.
LAMM: Yeah, but I got to tell you this.
HIERS: So many people don`t--
LAMM: Ashleigh, I`ve done over a thousand interventions, too, and I believe the notion that you have to want to change, at least in the
beginning when your brain is not supporting life even, is sort of a dinosaur concept. So I don`t judge people`s willingness to change. If you
give me your hand for whatever reason, whether it`s the job saying, Hey, you`ve got to give this a chance or the family that`s saying, Hey, you`ve
got to do this, I find that hope and miracles happen in all situations and it has very little to do with the person`s willingness in the beginning.
I`ve had ornery people get in my car, and I`ve flown crazy people halfway around the country that didn`t want what I was trying to help them with,
and they have recovered. So I think that`s the wonder of both of our stories.
BANFIELD: I just-- I want to tell the both of you-- I want to tell the both of you congratulations, and thank you, as well, because--
LAMM: Thanks for covering this story, Ashleigh.
BANFIELD: --because I also agree putting these things on television just gets the conversation going, and sometimes that`s as critical as the money,
as well.
LAMM: Hear, hear.
BANFIELD: Thank you, and congratulations agian, Ronald, I`m glad you`re here with us. Brad, as always, thank you. Appreciate it.
LAMM: Thanks, Ashleigh.
HIERS: Thank you so much.
BANFIELD: A former cheerleader is set on fire and left to die. But before she dies, she is able to speak and tell first responders the name of the
man who did it to her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I asked, I said, Baby girl, you know who done this to you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she respond?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what did she say?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She said Eric.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I said, Honey, who did this to you? And all I heard was Eric.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I asked her who did this to you, and she said Eric.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Here`s the big problem. The man that the prosecutors say is actually responsible-- his name is not Eric.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:24:12]BANFIELD: First responders, Mississippi-- they come upon a crime scene on a rural road. That`s scary enough. But what they encountered was
a young woman, 19, and she didn`t look like this. She was lying on the ground and she was barely able to speak because someone had intentionally
set her on fire, burning her alive.
Jessica Chambers was a high school cheerleader, and she died just hours after they found her. And today, nearly a dozen first responders took the
stand in her accused killer`s murder trial and they talked about that moment and what they encountered when they arrived.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILL TURNER, FIRST RESPONDER: She was burnt very, very badly. Her face was burned. The inside of her mouth was burned, her hair, her arms.
[20:25:00]She didn`t have any clothes. The only clothing she had on was panties. And her body was charred. It was just black skin hanging off of
it, burnt skin.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: The name of the man they eventually arrested is Quinton Tellis. This is him. This pair had apparently met about two weeks before she died.
They`d been hanging out. Prosecutors even say the two had had sex. But Quinton was not arrested until more than a year after the crime because
they`ve been looking all along for someone with a different name.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANDRA HALLEY, FIRST RESPONDER: I said, Honey, who did this to you? And all I heard was, Eric.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was the tone of her voice at this point?
HALLEY: You still couldn`t hardly understand nothing she was saying, but you had to listen careful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Jesse Weber is a host for Lawnewz.com, and he`s been watching the trial all day. This is what it comes down to. All these first
responders, one after the other, saying the same thing. She said Eric or Derrick, and they don`t seem to be unclear about that. And this man`s name
is Quinton Tellis. It`s not even close.
JESSE WEBER, LAWNEWZ.COM: The prosecution`s putting on their case, but it was a great day for the defense because all they have to show was the
victim, the victim said Eric or Derrick. She could have easily said Quinton. Now, the prosecution will say that she was so badly injured, her
vocal cords were so badly damaged that it`s not fair to say who she was saying. It`s fair to-- it`s not accurate to say she was saying Eric or
Derrick. Maybe she was saying something else. Having said that, she was able to communicate other words prett clearly, so the defense--
BANFIELD: Yeah, like, Eric did this. Eric set me on fire. I had this image before trial that she was barely able to breathe out an almost
inaudible sound that they took to sound like Eric, but she`s saying full sentences.
WEBER: Right and-- well, she said, Help me, I`m cold. And listen, all of these first responders are all saying the same thing. They`re not like
they corroborated their story. They`ll all coming out and saying the same thing.
BANFIELD: Speaking of the injuries, I`m glad you brought it up. I want to play Daniel Cole`s testimony. He`s one of the first responders. This is
really heartbreaking stuff. To think the family has to live through this. He talked about what he saw when he encountered Jessica Chambers. Have a
look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANIEL COLE, FIRST RESPONDER: I pulled up on scene, see a female laying at the back of Courtland`s fire truck that was heavily burned. She was-- her
hair was singed, just soot all around her nose and her mouth. When I tried to speak to her, it was difficult. It appeared as though maybe her tongue
was real thick. Her lips were constricted. There was red splotchy places from where the blistering had occurred all over her body.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Those are horrendous injuries. And I know that this is going to get medical, but in the first place, when they asked her her name, some of
those first responders said they didn`t get Jessica off the bat. They got Katina, Katrina and Courtney for her own name. That has got to be a big
win for prosecutors.
WEBER: Ashleigh, let`s not forget she was burned alive. One responder said she was in mental shock. So again, it`s not fair to say what she was
not (ph) saying.
BANFIELD: Struggling with her own name?
WEBER: Struggling with her own words.
BANFIELD: YEah.
WEBER: We have to let the case go on and see what happens.
BANFIELD: So let me bring in Dr. Tim Gallagher because he is a medical examiner and a former forensic pathologist. He joins me from Daytona
Beach.
Dr. Gallagher, those kind of injuries, that kind of trauma to the trachea, to the mouth-- I mean, they said that her lips and her mouth looked like
charcoal. Does it surprise you at all that she would struggle to say a name like Quinton Tellis and that it might come out like Eric?
DR. TIM GALLAGHER, MEDICAL EXAMINER (via telephone): I believe that`s very possible, Ashleigh. And thanks for having me on the show.
There are about three things, you know, that are important to understand after somebody gets burned. I know they explained she was burned over 93
percent of her body`s surface area, but that`s the visible burns that they can see. She did-- she was in a car, and the temperature of the car inside
the car was several hundred degrees. So she`s breathing all of that hot air and hot gases into her lungs and into her airway, and that damages the
vocal cords and that damages the lungs.
BANFIELD: I would imagine that will come out in court, as well, Doctor. Can I also just ask you about what happens to your mind? I mean, this
young woman is, I`m assuming, in a state of shock. Is she thinking straight when they ask her her name and she`s saying things that sound like
Katrina and Courtney? Is it possible she`s not thinking straight when she says Eric?
GALLAGHER: That`s the important thing. When you`re in the car and it is burning, the plastics are burning and they`re releasing noxious gases, very
toxic gases that affect the mind. And it does give you an altered mental status. I believe one of the first responders said she was walking in a
zombie-like state.
So these chemicals that are released during the fire, she`s breathing them in, and they affect her mind. Additionally, she`s also breathing in the
carbon monoxide, you know, which also cuts the oxygen off to your brain. So it`s very possible that she could have --
BANFIELD: A state of confusion maybe of some kind as well.
GALLAGHER (via telephone): Right, right. A very significant state of confusion, absolutely.
BANFIELD: Let me bring in a veteran prosecutor, Wendy Patrick is with me live as well. Look, from the moment I heard the facts in this case, I
thought, i don`t see it. I think this is an uphill battle for prosecutors.
Do they have to hammer down at the kind of medicine that Dr. Gallagher was just talking about, the kind of damage, and the kind of mind state that she
was in as she was dying in order to get past this -- it isn`t an Eric. It`s a Quinton Tellis sitting at defense table?
WENDY PATRICK, VETERAN PROSECUTOR: That`s right, Ashleigh. Great question. Heartbreaking case. Forensics speak louder than words. We call the words
into question by some of the very established science you just heard. No doubt we`re going to hear more of that during the trial.
But remember that this was a case that was warmed up. It was a cold case. It went cold during 2015. Prosecutors did the kind of leg work they needed
to do to not only come up with the suspect, but to find the kind of forensic evidence that would support the suspect that they charged.
That is more likely going to be what`s going to come out in the evidence. Now, I know the prosecution was very up front in drawing the sting in
opening statement letting them know what they had and didn`t have --
BANFIELD: Yes.
PATTICK: But that`s how they`re going to have to prove this case, exactly the same reason you just heard.
BANFIELD: They`ve got DNA on the keys, but look, they had admitted they were driving around with her that morning at another person`s car.
PATRICK: They`ll have more than that.
BANFIELD: (INAUDIBLE), I say, the DNA should be on the keys. Good work. Continue the coverage. We will check in with you as well. Thanks so much,
Wendy. Don`t go anywhere. My thanks to Dr. Tim Gallagher as well.
If you are a parent, you probably know what it`s like when your babysitter falls through, you know, that plan you made. Police say it happened to a
mom in Iowa before an 11-day trip to Germany. And you would think that would stop her from going, right? No. The mug shot tells you otherwise.
She`s now been ordered not to have any contact with her kids, all four of them. And she`s in some extra trouble for what she allegedly left behind in
that house. Let`s just say it takes bullets. Full story ahead.
[20:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: "Home Alone" was a comedy, but we have for you tonight a real life drama. Really I think you could call it a tale of horror, actually.
Police in Iowa saying that a mother by the name of Erin Macke, remember that name. Erin decided she needed to take a European vacation and come on,
she has four kids. I get that. I would want one, too.
Sadly though for Erin, the baby-sitter plan fell through according to the cops and apparently nothing was going to stop Ms. Macke from making it over
to the continent. She allegedly left her own four children all by themselves completely alone and jetted off. Can you believe this?
If you don`t believe it, I`m also going to tell you this. She`s facing an additional accusation of leaving a gun behind and ammo nearby that gun.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TYLER TOMPKINS, LIEUTENANT, JOHNSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT: We have situations where parents go next door or parents may go out for the night and while
that`s not advisable either depending on the age of the children, obviously leaving the country is a totally different situation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: When the father of one of those children called the police, they found the kids, and one of them was as young as six, all by themselves.
Ages six through 12. Investigators tracked Ms. Macke down by telephone because she was in Europe and they asked her to come on home.
She said she would eventually when the vacation was over. They said it took her actually seven days to actually get on a plane and come home to those
kids. Sue Danielson is the assistant news director for WHO Radio, and she joins me from Des Moines.
Sue, I just want to play a quick moment of Erin Macke leaving court when the friendly press were all there to witness her and take pictures of her
and ask her what the hell were you thinking? Those are my words, not theirs, but have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): Erin, what were you doing in Germany?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Yes, they weren`t getting any answers. So, I`m going to leave it to you, Sue. What more do you know about this story?
SUE DANIELSON, ASSISTANT NEWS DIRECTOR, WHO RADIO (via telephone): More questions than answers, that`s for sure. We heard from Johnston Police this
unusual tale, of course, last month, that they got a call from someone who was concerned that several kids were left home alone in their apartment.
They checked it out.
Their 12-year-old twins, 7-year-old, 6-year-old. They were home and had been home alone for 24 hours. They told police flat out that their mother,
Eric Macke, had flown to Germany on September 20th and did not have plans to return until October 1st, so will be gone 11 days.
BANFIELD: That`s like what? That`s like 11 days?
DANIELSON (via telephone): Yes, 11 days.
BANFIELD: Are these pictures -- can you see your TV? Are these pictures of her
[20:40:00] on the vacation? Like she actually -- maybe not this one with the body building. She`s very pretty. But the pictures of her that look
like vacation photos, was she posting on Instagram so the kids could actually see where she was?
DANIELSON (via telephone): I`m not aware of that at all, but they did demand that she return and she got back on September 27th, and they filed
charges the next day.
BANFIELD: Sue, I`m just hearing that this is actually a picture of her while she`s in Germany. Nice vacation photos. I`m sure it was a lot of fun
especially when you don`t have to tag four kids along with you. Question -- and there`s the bratwurst. It`s like I couldn`t script this thing. Oh, dear
God.
How is it that the police could not compel her to come home? Why was it that she said, I`ll come home when my vacation is over on October 1st. She
came home a little earlier, but seven days. How could they not compel her to get home?
DANIELSON (via telephone): Yes, I don`t know. At that point, the children were in custody of family, I believe. They mentioned they got her back --
BANFIELD: I`ll bet.
DANIELSON (via telephone): They didn`t cover that in the news conference.
BANFIELD: Did they cover the whole Glock 9-millimeter thing that was located on the shelf in the master bedroom? What was located nearby, Sue,
remind me?
DANIELSON: Yes, ammo in reach. There was a gun left in the apartment unsecured. So that`s a big problem for her as well. So not only was she
charged with four counts of child endangerment but account of making a firearm available to a person underage too.
BANFIELD: I want to bring in Matthew Macke. He`s Erin Macke`s ex-husband. He joins me from Iowa City, Iowa. So, you must have been pretty mad,
Matthew, when you found out.
MATTHEW MACKE, EX-HUSBAND OF ERIN MACKE (via telephone): Absolutely.
BANFIELD: How did you find out?
MACKE (via telephone): So, we found out, I talked to the two older kids, our twins, and the dad -- the father of those two and I frequently talk. He
was communicating with his son. And he called me and had let me know, did you know that Erin had left the kids home alone? I said, no, I didn`t.
BANFIELD: Did she -- Matthew, did she ask you if you could look after the kids while she went on a vacation?
MACKE (via telephone): She gave me the dates for her vacation, but the way she worded it to me in the text message was that, hey, these are the dates
I`m going on vacation. Would you please let me know what days you`re available to watch the girls and so that way I can let my aunt and uncle
know, giving me the impression that they are going to be staying with family members.
BANFIELD: Are your little kids with you now?
MACKE (via telephone): I have them now, yes.
BANFIELD: You do. Do you think they`ll go back and have visits or at least be in custodial care of her again?
MACKE (via telephone): Boy, I hope not. Maybe visitation, supervised.
BANFIELD: I`m pretty astounded.
MACKE (via telephone): Yes, well, you know, I did the interview before and said I wasn`t surprised. To be honest with you, I really wasn`t because
this is not the first time something like this has happened.
BANFIELD: Let me bring in Wendy Patrick real quick. Is this open and shut? I mean, they find the four kids and she`s in Germany. She doesn`t even come
home when they called her.
PATRICK: Yes, that`s very exacerbating circumstances. This is a criminal version of "Home Alone." I will tell you, if this case ever gets in front
of a jury, absolutely right --
BANFIELD: Do you think it will?
PATRICK: Well, it depends. It depends on whether or not there`s some kind of technicality or loophole or whether she wants to plead guilty to
anything or figures that she is going to get the same sentence either way.
But it is a very -- let`s say strong case, particularly when you got a gun in the house. And you worry that this has been the first time it happened.
I hope it is the very first time that it happened. But I don`t know.
BANFIELD: We`ll watch. Yes. There she is. There`s your new world, Ms. Macke. Sue Danielson, Matthew Macke, thank you. Wendy, I`m going to ask you
to say, if you can.
People plot sexual encounters with strangers online all the time. And this is the kind of dirty stuff we see all the time. One guy says, I would be
very gentle. No bondage. I would treat her of course with the utmost respect. Hugging, touching, kissing, oral penetration.
That doesn`t surprise you. I got it. I`m OK with that. However, this alleged child predator is talking about what he would do with a 9-year-old
girl to her parents and, boy, is he in for a surprise.
[20:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: Kiddie perverts are nothing new. We`ve all seen the busts on TV and they`re almost always shocked that a camera is rolling when they arrive
or that they`re caught red handed before their hands can actually go anywhere. But we` are rarely treated to the lengths that some people will
go to zero in on their prey.
And tonight, I want you to meet Mark Nichols, a man from Austin, Texas, who police say flew a thousand miles to Orlando so that he could have sex with
a 9-year-old girl. And the things that he suggested that he wanted to do with her -- I`m sorry they just happen to be too R-rated to even describe
on television.
But we do know about the things that he allegedly suggested because it was detectives on the other end of the keyboard when the conversations were
getting sick and steamy. It all started when undercover cops posing as a young girl and her mom and her dad -- gross, but that`s what they did. They
posed for an online ad by quoting this, experienced parents to learn new things about raising little ones.
That was all the ad said. Doesn`t sound sexy. But they say Mark Nichols responded right away. And that he said he wanted to have sex with the whole
family, not just the 9-year-old girl. The whole kit and caboodle, mom, dad, and the 9-year-old.
In one of the texts, he said, I want to be respectful and just provide you all with a fun, safe experience, the police tell us. Mr. Nichols is a dad
himself. Has a daughter, no less. Also happens to be a grandfather.
[20:50:00] Police say when Mr. Nichols arrived for his encounter, he arrived bearing gifts, that`s nice. Sour Patch Kids, Skittles, and a bottle
of lube. He allegedly told the cops this was his first time acting out his fantasy.
Sergeant Tami Edwards is with the Orlando Police Department Special Victim`s Unit. She joins me from Orlando. Sergeant, I`m disgusted. I can`t
bear some of the things that I saw, you know, in transcription. Your department living through it. I can`t imagine what it`s like to be you.
But I wanted to just share with our audience if I can, sergeant, some of the these texts, alleged to have come from Mark Nichols. I`ll start here.
He says to mom and dad and the 9-year-old and, of course, it`s cops. I would like to visit you all. I`m interested in having sex with Jaque,
that`s the child, and Jaque`s mom.
I am bi so I am open to some bi play with you if you are interested. If you are not, that`s fine. I would maybe like to watch you have sex with Jaque,
the little child. Be there. Touch and reassure her. Then have sex with her myself. Would Jaque want to watch me with mom? And then he goes on to say
this. I want to be respectful and just provide you all with a fun, safe experience.
TAMI EDWARDS, SERGEANT, ORLANDO POLICE DEPARTMENT SPECIAL VICTIM`S UNIT (via telephone): Yes.
BANFIELD: Can you believe when this stuff comes in, sergeant?
EDWARDS (via telephone): No, and oftentimes when I have to review the reports and the content, it -- you know, the gag reflections kick in. So
there`s a few things I can`t eat right now because I was eating the cake or a pineapple while reading those messages which you said are R-rated,
they`re not available or allowed to be said on TV.
BANFIELD: I`m not surprised. What I am a little surprised at, it didn`t take much to catch this guy. An ad that says, experienced parents to learn
new things from about raising little ones. Is this a technique so it`s not entrapment.
I mean, you don`t want to say, hey, I`m nine and I want to -- you know, the obvious would be too obvious. Is this simple to get someone like this to
respond so quickly with something so innocuous?
EDWARDS (via telephone): Yes. That`s the foundation. Most of the ads are usually just set up for just basic, you know, easy family, just everything
is friendly, nothing is suggestive or anything that would entice anybody to do something that they wouldn`t normally do.
BANFIELD: So, let me bring in Sheriff Grady Judd. He`s the Polk County sheriff. He`s with the sheriff`s office there. He`s also the director of
the Central Florida Internet Crimes Against Children Task Force which incorporates a lot of what the Orlando folks do as well.
Sheriff Judd, I`ve watched you before as you presented the Rogues Gallery of the 19 -- I think it was back in the spring. All the people you hauled
in on internet and child porn. But this is just -- to me, it`s a new low. Are you surprised by it? Especially to showed up with Skittles and with
Sour Patch Lids and lube?
GRADY JUDD, SHERIFF, POLK COUNTY SHERIFF OFFICE (via telephone): Ashleigh, I hate to tell you that I`m not surprised by it. I (INAUDIBLE) Police
Department that worked on this case. But that follows the normal pattern that we see. We`ve arrested dozens and dozens and dozens of these perverts,
and that`s what they are.
They`re very dangerous and they can be very violent as well. So even though they groom the parents and they groom the children, they are out on the
internet looking for children to abuse every hour of every day, and that`s why it`s incumbent upon us as law enforcement officers around this state
and around this nation to proactively go after them. That`s exactly what we do.
BANFIELD: So, I want to bring Wendy Patrick into our conversation if I can, sheriff. This is your business, sex crimes.
PATRICK: Yes.
BANFIELD: You deal with this stuff all the time. I bet you can understand when the sergeant said she can`t eat pineapple anymore because she was
eating pineapple when she had to read this.
PATRICK: Yes, you know, we have to look at the facts objectively. But two things stick out here. The first is pathological identification. This is a
guy who is attempting to normalize this kind of contact with a 9-year-old. The second is a normalization to provide a safe, fun experience --
BANFIELD: Right.
PATRICK: -- to speak like that to those parents?
BANFIELD: I want to be respectful and just provide you all with a fun, safe experience as though he`s talking to grownups and not about a little kid.
PATRICK: And not about where that conversation is going to go. It`s almost as if he`s using innocuous language on purpose.
BANFIELD: How about this part where he says, would it be OK for little Jaque to watch me with her mom? It`s so astounding. All of these are
allegations, he`s not been through the court of law yet, but this stuff is enough to turn your stomach. Thank God people like you and the good sheriff
and the good sergeant are doing the work that they`re doing. Hideous stuff. Thank you, Wendy. Back right after this.
[20:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: With the world series right around the corner, this is an appropriate story. Chicago Cubs stand a chance of winning again. But one
man is not going to be able to follow the actions so good because he was hit by a foul ball this summer and this is how he ended up, blind in one
eye.
He is now suing the Cubs and Major League Baseball. He says they didn`t protect him from injury or warn him about the danger of sitting in a part
of the stands that doesn`t have protective netting.
MLB has said that in the past, they`re working with the ballparks to extend the netting, but we haven`t heard back from them or the Cubs yet on this
case, so you have to stay tuned to that.
In the meantime, thank you so much for being here. Thank you to Wendy Patrick for all your great insights. I appreciate it. I look forward to
having you again. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. [21:00:00]
We`ll see you back here again at 8:00 for "Primetime Justice" tomorrow night. In the meantime, stay tuned for "Forensic Files" that begins right
now.
END
