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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield
Post-Mortem Testimony; Casey Anthony`s Secret Life; CNN Heroes. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired October 12, 2017 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HOST (voice-over): A mom of two doused in gas and set on fire, cheating death for almost two years.
JUDY MALINOWSKI, VICTIM: It destroyed my life, my family`s life, my kids` life.
BANFIELD: Dozens of surgeries to keep her alive.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re either going to have to make a choice to let God and nature take its choice --
BANFIELD: All so she could testify on tape against the man who did it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t tell you from my mom`s perspective what that`s like (INAUDIBLE)
BANFIELD: When she died, her ex was charged with murder.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You really do seem like one of those people that have no soul.
BANFIELD: And while Judy won`t be there for his trial, her tape just might be.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, he got 11 years. My mom, my sister and I all got life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People want that little girl found.
CASEY ANTHONY, CHARGED WITH MURDER: (INAUDIBLE) The more people, the better. Everyone should want her back.
BANFIELD: Not many names get people riled up.
CASEY ANTHONY: Can someone let me -- come on!
BANFIELD: Quite like Casey Anthony.
ANTHONY: The media is going to have a frickin` field day with this!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look what you`ve done!
BANFIELD: The jury found her not guilty of murdering her little girl.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- Casey Marie Anthony, not guilty.
BANFIELD: But many people say the jury got it wrong.
ANTHONY: I am upset now.
BANFIELD: Now a closer look at the case, the players and how it really happened.
ANTHONY: I`m frustrated and I`m angry.
BANFIELD: When people show up at your mom`s house--
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop it!
BANFIELD: --it`s probably not a good idea to greet them with a tomahawk.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ll find out what`s going on and be able to get him some help.
BANFIELD: Not to mention naked.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, ma`am. My brother`s in the back room destroying his property at my mom`s house.
BANFIELD: The bizarre standoff with a sad twist.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Good evening, everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. This is PRIMETIME JUSTICE.
Judy Malinowski deserves justice. And there is no one that you`re going to find anywhere who doesn`t agree, except maybe that man who threw gasoline
all over her two years ago and then lit her on fire. But he may be just about to get doused with a little bit of justice.
I want to remind you, this is Judy, who was confined to a hospital bed for nearly 700 excruciatingly painful days with burns to more than 90 percent
of her body.
But she fought to stay alive, and for good reason. She wanted to testify on tape against her ex because if she died, he might just end up being a
murderer. But keep in mind this is how difficult it was for Judy just to utter a few words.
MALINOWSKI: (INAUDIBLE)
BANFIELD: Hard to watch, especially when you see what she used to look like. With her mother and her son and her two daughters in mind, Judy
wanted to be heard in a court of law. Theoretically, she wanted to be a witness at her own murder trial.
That ex-boyfriend, Michael Slager, had only been sent to prison for 11 years, basically the max for the crime that he was convicted of, aggravated
arson, assault and a couple of other charges, but a technicality really in the state of Ohio.
So when Judy died a couple of months ago, Judy`s assault became Judy`s murder. And before she died, when she knew her time was short, she
recorded that deposition, and that deposition was sealed. And along with that deposition, she did something else. She made a plea to the lawmakers
in that state about the sentencing laws.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MALINOWSKI: Senator Hughes`s house bill 63 should be passed because it`s destroyed my life, my family`s life, my kids` life, everyone around us
life. And the laws of justice are just not fair.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: I am happy to report to you tonight that Judy`s law passed, but it did so just after she died. It effectively will add six years to a
sentence if an attacker uses an accelerant and causes permanent disfigurement to the victim.
But let`s go back to Michael Slager for a moment, her attacker, because as of tonight -- smile, you have been officially charged with murder! And
yes, Mr. Slager, they are seeking the death penalty against you. And this is something Slager`s attorney says isn`t fair.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT KRAPENC, SLAGER`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I did cross-examine her based on the information I had at the time. But I didn`t have all the
information because the coroner`s report hadn`t been created yet. The toxicology report hasn`t been -- had not been created yet.
[20:05:03]I don`t know what was in her system. I don`t -- (INAUDIBLE) I could have asked her. I don`t have all the information. And that`s again
why the rule is what the rule is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: He`s talking about a rule about cross-examining a witness. If you`re dead, you can`t be cross-examined. So if you record your testimony,
how can anyone question it? It is a big loophole and a big problem, and maybe it`s an uphill battle, but maybe not.
Melissa Neeley is an anchor and reporter for 700 WLW radio. And she joins me from Cincinnati.
All right, Melissa, he`s been charged with four counts. What are they?
MELISSA NEELEY, WLW ((via telephone): He`s been charged with two counts of aggravated murder and two counts of murder in this case so far.
BANFIELD: So the fact that they`re going for the death penalty is not surprising, given the fact that this woman suffered for 700 or so days
before she died. If that`s not aggravated, I don`t know what is. But there`s a lot more to this case than the average boilerplate murder case,
isn`t there.
NEELEY: Yes, that`s right. It`s come up against some Ohio law, which in a civil case you are allowed to record a deposition, but in a criminal case,
that usually isn`t allowed in the state of Ohio, and that`s what Slager`s attorney is saying and why they`re fighting to block the testimony that
Judy recorded.
And in fact, his -- Slager`s attorney did say that he was able to cross- examine her on the information that he had at the time, but because, of course, there wasn`t a coroner`s report and a toxicology report, those
didn`t exist at the time. He`s saying that this deposition is not allowed under Ohio law.
BANFIELD: So while we talk about the technicality of that, the reality of this crime is also critical to this case. And for that reason, I want to
show some photographs of Judy Malinowski during her many, many, dozens of surgeries. The problem is, I just need to -- you know, you need to be very
aware this is difficult material to see. But a jury will undoubtedly be asked to see this.
As she suffered through those 700-some-odd days with burns to 93 percent of her body, Judy reported that she was in severe pain at every moment. She
was medicated through most of her surgeries and most of her time as she was bedridden. It is obvious when you see the condition of Judy Malinowski
that this crime was horrendous, that this victim suffered in a horrendous way. And the fact that she fought for those 700 or so days to try to stay
alive, to fight the system, to see if she could at least have her voice heard in court is nothing short of remarkable, and it`s also unprecedented.
So talk to me a little bit about the deposition that she did take. Melissa, it has been sealed, but who else has seen it?
NEELEY: Well, at this point, I mean, it hasn`t been officially entered -- or it has been entered, I think, into the record before, but they`re
contesting that. And they don`t want it used in this new trial against him on the murder charges. So at this point, I think -- you know, a jury has
not seen it, so I think the point that prosecutors make is that they definitely want the jury to see this because they want to see the victim
speak for herself and the way that she was suffering after the incident where she was burned.
BANFIELD: I think any jury who sees any photograph of Judy is going to be angry, but if they can hear her voice, they will be outraged and incensed.
It may not even matter what she says on the tape so much as the fact that she is brought to life in that courtroom.
Stand by, Melissa, if you will, for a moment. I want to bring in John Dauphin. He`s the spokesman for the family of Judy Malinowski, and he
joins me from Columbus, Ohio. John, thanks for being on the program.
I do have this one question for you. Does the family feel as though, without that deposition, that videotaped deposition, if the litigation
suppresses that tape and the jury never gets to see Judy testifying -- does the family feel as though the case is strong enough against Michael Slager
to put him away for good or even get the death penalty.
JOHN DAUPHIN, MALINOWSKI FAMILY ATTORNEY (via telephone): Absolutely, Ashleigh. And thank you for having me. Yes, the family is confident, and
furthermore, are confident in the prosecution team to present more than enough, ample evidence that this attack was intentional.
[20:10:00]BANFIELD: Can I ask you about what this new development in Judy`s story has meant for her mother and her daughters and her son because
it may be satisfying that he`s going to stand -- you know, he`s going to stand trial on murder, but they don`t get to see her anymore.
DAUPHIN: You`re exactly right, Ashleigh. You know, yesterday`s proceedings and the charges being filed obviously are important step toward
what will, hopefully, be a sort of earthly justice for Judy, but to your point, it can`t bring Judy back. And that void for Bonnie and for Judy`s
daughters and young Patrick (ph) is enormous. And the finality of the recognition that Judy is not coming back is just now beginning to settle in
on the family.
BANFIELD: I mean, because they have had her, albeit in the condition that we`re looking at on our TV screens right now -- they have had her for
almost two years. You know, for 700 days, they have been able to be bedside, and that is a massive difference.
Yes, they all knew what could happen. Yes, they were give warnings that her condition was deteriorating. Yes, she tried to hang on for that
deposition. But ultimately, Bonnie and those daughters and her son can`t see their mom or their daughter anymore.
One last question. Is it something that is on the minds of the family at this point, John, that perhaps just the silent videotape might play at that
trial? And when I say that, that`s significant because the content of what she`s saying can`t be cross-examined. So I understand that could be
suppressed. But the pictures of her, videotape of her being played to that jury in the condition she`s in could be enormously powerful to a jury. And
what`s to cross-examine there?
DAUPHIN: Absolutely, Ashleigh. The -- from an image perspective, absolutely overpowering to anyone who would view that, beyond any doubt.
And if I may, Ashleigh, quickly, with regard to the deposition, it is crucial to understand that Judy, in preparation for the deposition, endured
brutal pain, indescribable pain in going off her medicine, as you suggested, to prepare for it, gave that deposition, from what eventually
amounted to her death bed, Ashleigh, showed extreme courage to endure it. To give that deposition under the scrutiny, as well, of cross-examination,
and most of all, to face her attacker, Ashleigh -- she faced him, Ashleigh. She did everything she could to help ensure that he is never able to
victimize anyone else and--
BANFIELD: Because you know -- you know, can I ask you, John, did you just say she faced her attacker? Was Michael Slager in the room during that
deposition at the hospital bed?
DAUPHIN: Yes. He was in the courtroom with, I believe, the appellate judge, the defense attorney. I`m not certain who else may have been in the
courtroom. And then in her hospital room Bonnie was not legally able to be in there. None of us were, just a representative of the prosecution team--
BANFIELD: So she didn`t -- he was not present in the hospital room. He was via video. I`m assuming this is -- if I have it correct, she`s in her
hospital room, he`s in court, he`s listening to it, but she doesn`t have to look at him, correct?
DAUPHIN: That`s correct.
BANFIELD: OK.
DAUPHIN: But he was there.
BANFIELD: He was -- hold on for a second, John. OK, hold on for a second. I want to bring in Jeff Gold, a defense attorney, on this one. There are
so many questions that come into play. This is unprecedented not just for the state of Ohio, I think for the country. I don`t know that I`ve ever
heard of this before.
But the two that I have for you are this. Number one, it`s true, once she died, the coroner`s report and the cause of death -- that can`t be cross-
examined because she`s no longer there or available for cross-examination. But the majority of it, they did. You just heard -- you just heard John
Dauphin say he was present, her attorney was able to ask her questions. That was excruciating for her in the condition she was in. Answer that,
but also add to it the fact that she`s in terrible pain. And how does that affect the kind of answers that she gives?
JEFF GOLD, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: First of all, the judge allowed this deposition to take place. That, first of all, is a little bit of steam for
the prosecutor to begin with, where otherwise, this is unprecedented in Ohio. But at least they did that.
[20:15:05]Even the deposition was unprecedented, really. So you were exactly right before. Anything that the prosecutor gets out of this
deposition is a home run for him. He may just get the visual. He may get part of the deposition which doesn`t pertain to--
BANFIELD: To that last little bit--
GOLD: -- to that last little bit.
BANFIELD: -- the actual death, the cause of death. Right.
GOLD: You know, but anything that the state gets here--
BANFIELD: Is a win.
GOLD: -- is a win.
BANFIELD: What about this issue that she`s under excruciating pain. John Dauphin just said it. She went off those pain medications so that she
could be clear. But there`s no coroner`s report to say what`s in her bloodstream at that time. Can a defense attorney say, How can we trust
what she may be slightly medicated as saying?
GOLD: Well, the reason she went off of medications is so she could answer the question that she`s not under medication as she`s testifying. You
don`t want a witness to be not part of their -- their senses.
BANFIELD: Yes, but you want more than just someone`s testimony on that. You want the proof. You want--
GOLD: That`s why--
BANFIELD: -- the actual report.
GOLD: But that`s why she went off because she had to--
BANFIELD: You have to have the doctor testify to that.
GOLD: Right. But look, the defense wants to cross-examine. The difference between all these civil cases, as you`ve pointed out, is the
right of confrontation in a criminal case. It doesn`t exist in a civil case.
BANFIELD: I know you`re a defense attorney, but don`t you hope this goes through?
GOLD: And I think it--
BANFIELD: Don`t you want to see that woman testify in her own murder trial?
GOLD: I do. But I think that the fact is, is that he`s going to get convicted if any of it comes in or if none of it comes in and photographs
come in. I think he`s going to get convicted.
BANFIELD: All right. I`m going to have to leave it there. Melissa Neeley, thank you to you. John Dauphin, thank you. Jeff Gold, I`m going to
ask you to stay if you will.
I have three words and they are difficult for a lot of people to hear. Casey Marie Anthony, which leads me to these three more words, secrets,
lies and TV.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They found my daughter`s car today. And it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why didn`t you call 31 days ago?
ANTHONY: I`ve been looking for her and have gone through other resources to try to find her, which is stupid.
Can someone let me -- come on!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you want me to tell Caylee?
ANTHONY: That mommy loves her very much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: There were so many blockbuster moments in the Casey Anthony story. Straight ahead, we`re going to hear from Casey Anthony`s attorney,
Cheney Mason, about what she has been doing since the dramatic acquittal and how the story has changed.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:20:00]BANFIELD: There aren`t too many people whose names evoke as much anger and outrage as Casey Anthony. She was even dubbed by some as the
most hated mom to America. Casey`s road to infamy was paved with a lot of exquisite lying. She was accused of killing her 2-year-old daughter,
Caylee, back in 2008. That little girl had been reported missing, but not until a full month after she was last seen.
Casey was arrested the very next day. And while she was stuck behind bars, her parents came to visit her and their conversations at the jail were,
naturally, recorded. They seemed as though they were desperate to extract information from Casey about where their little granddaughter could be.
And who could forget those tapes?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTHONY: I was in Lake (ph) County two days ago.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Is there anything there?
ANTHONY: Mom! I`m sorry. I love you guys. I miss you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) sweetheart. Here`s Dad.
ANTHONY: No, I`m going to hang up and just walk away right now because--
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please don`t.
ANTHONY: I`m frustrated and I`m angry. And I don`t want to be angry. This is the first time I`ve truly, truly been angry this entire time. But
I`m so beyond frustrated with all of this that I can`t even swallow right now, it hurts.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think she could be out of the country or anywhere?
ANTHONY: Mom, I don`t want--
(CROSSTALK)
ANTHONY: -- going through the same thing that it`s always been. So please stop it!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know. I know.
ANTHONY: This is why -- this is one of the main reasons that I chose Dad is because he won`t sit there and keep asking the same questions 500 times
over, like you and Lee have done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Casey`s daughter`s remains were found after that conversation, about Christmastime, in the woods less than half a mile from the family
home. And Casey was charged with her murder.
Nearly three years later, her murder trial ended in a not guilty verdict on the top charges of murder, child abuse and manslaughter. But she was
convicted of lying, lying to an officer. Casey served her time and is now living in Florida. And people may think that they know the whole story,
but tonight we`re going to take a closer look at how it really happened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People want that little girl found.
ANTHONY: Good, the more people the better. Everyone should want her back.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, they do, Casey.
ANTHONY: I just want her back.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But do you think after this long, she`d still be local?
ANTHONY: That`s a possibility.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s your gut telling you right now?
(CROSSTALK)
ANTHONY: That she`s OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And your gut tells you that she`s close or some -- she`s -- she`s hiding?
ANTHONY: She`s not far. I know in my heart she`s not far. I can feel it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cindy, are you now saying you believe that we`re going to find Caylee?
[20:25:02]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, I believe we`re going to find Caylee if the investigation goes the right way.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The next step is to check out her claims that she had a job at Universal. She used to walk around with an ID that appeared to be
a Universal Studios identification, you know, hanging on a lanyard around her neck. And her parents thought that she worked there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) all the time. It was green shamrocks with white beads and it had her original Universal ID on it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And so they take her to Universal Studios.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We walked with her up to the employee entrance and watched her. She said she tells the security guard that she`s an employee
there.
At this point the security guard looks on the computer screen and says, I`m sorry. We don`t have an employee here by that name, at which point Casey
says, Oh, no, no, no, I work here. I just don`t have my employee ID. The security guard continues to search through the records. And he looks at
her and he says, What`s your supervisor`s name? Casey gives him a name, and the security guard then looks in the computer again and says, Ma`am,
that`s not an employee here either. What`s your phone extension? At this point, she gives him a phone extension, and he looks at her and he says --
he says to her, Ma`am, that`s not a phone extension here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Ultimately at trial, the opening statements that Casey`s attorney delivered were very different than what anyone thought. They
proposed to the jury that that little girl died in the back yard swimming pool and that Casey`s dad forced them to keep it quiet.
Cheney Mason was part of the defense team for Casey Anthony. He has stayed in touch with her since her acquittal, and he joins me from Orlando.
Cheney, thanks very much for being on the program tonight. Your former client gave an interview to the Associated Press in which she said she
still isn`t certain about what happened. Is that troubling to you? How do you reconcile that statement, given the fact that you were part of that
whole defense theory?
CHENEY MASON, CASEY ANTHONY ATTORNEY (via telephone): No, it`s not troubling to me. Casey has always told us the truth. The evidence
supported her. I`ve said to others and I`ll say it again. When Casey was first confronted by her father holding this child after she had drowned in
the pool, I believe and so did our forensic psychiatrists, that Casey`s mind -- it`s kind of like the Venetian blinds closed and she went into
Casey world and did not accept -- did not believe that child was dead for a long, long time.
And I was beside her. I tried the entire case from beginning to end. When Casey learned for the first time that stark reality that, indeed, Caylee
was dead, it was in the last part of the trial. And the grief counselor explained what was happening basically to Casey`s mind, and she completely
broke.
I sat next to her. I held her hand. And I knew at that time for the first time she absolutely accepted that this precious Caylee was gone.
BANFIELD: So Cheney, can I ask -- when you say that Casey told you nothing other than the truth, but she said to the Associated Press she`s still not
certain what happened -- what truth did she tell you that she`s now not certain of?
MASON: Well, I don`t know what she allegedly told to the Associated Press. I wasn`t there. All I know is--
BANFIELD: She said she`s not certain. It`s on tape. And she said absolutely on tape -- you can see it--
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: -- that she`s not certain what happened.
MASON: I haven`t seen -- Ashleigh, I haven`t seen that. I haven`t heard it. I haven`t been part of that tape. All I know is -- is that we believe
the evidence that`s overwhelmingly clear the child drowned in the pool, and what happened after that is what Casey doesn`t have a present mind to be
able to -- she doesn`t know for certain what happened after that even when we confront her with the evidence. She does not know who, how, when and
where that child was disposed of as she was. And that`s history. That`s been going on--
BANFIELD: OK.
MASON: I mean, I guess this will go on forever.
BANFIELD: It`s hard. I mean, it`s hard--
MASON: We tried the case. You know, the verdict is six years ago.
BANFIELD: I knew you many years, even before the Casey Anthony case. You`re a great litigator. I covered a murder trial that you -- you know,
that you litigated. And so we have both been in courts of law where fact and truth are critical. So when I see an interview that Casey gave to the
Associated Press -- I`m going to play a short piece of it. It`s about her lying and about lying to the police.
It makes me upset because someone treating lying in such a cavalier way is upsetting, I think, to anybody who is in the business of truth speaking.
So have a listen to this. I want the ask you something on the other side.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) of one thing.
ANTHONY: Lying to the cops.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) cops every day and cops lie to people every day. I`m just one of the unfortunate idiots who admitted that they lied.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So your parents had her.
ANTHONY: My dad did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And next thing you know, she`s missing. How did it play?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: So, Cheney, the cavalier notion that lying to the cops, people do it every day. She even said I was too stupid to tell the truth later about
lying to the cops.
That doesn`t square with you telling me that Casey told you the truth and that you as a seasoned attorney would believe that from someone who you now
say lives in Casey`s world who does not know who, how, what, where, when happened to her daughter.
How do you square with this, the fact that she had no problem lying to anybody, and do you think maybe she lied to you?
MASON: No, I don`t. And the evidence proves it. The bottom line is, if somebody is lying, that`s based on a perception of somebody that`s hearing
it.
You don`t know necessarily what`s going on in the mind of the declarant. And I think that`s what the real issue is here. Most people, you and others
around the world, did not want to accept that a mother didn`t know what happened to her daughter.
I`m clear that she didn`t for a long time, even at the end of trial. And so, with everybody attacking her, I can`t tell you. All I know is I know
Casey now. I talked to her as recently as this afternoon to see how she is doing. She`s appearing to be very clear in what`s going on in her world.
She misses her child. And I can tell you that I know other mothers and have for all my life that really love their children. And I am absolutely
certain that Casey is one of those who loved her child.
And the evidence we presented proved it. All the witnesses talked about how well she was cared for, how well she was taken care of. The photographs of
her playing in the living room. And absolutely no history of any form of neglect or abuse whatsoever.
BANFIELD: Let me ask you about those jailhouse tapes and one in particular where George is talking to Casey about being close, thinking that Caylee is
somehow close because when you now with the -- through a different prism, through those opening statements.
And the fear that you and Jose Baez posed at trial that George had discovered the lifeless body after an accidental drowning in the backyard
and then forced Casey to keep it quiet, being able to do so through years and years of abuse of Casey.
When we look at these tapes, it doesn`t feel like it`s possible because these tapes were recorded months after that theory would have taken place.
So, when we hear this next soundbite, it is months after George, if Casey is telling the truth, already knew the baby was dead. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know she`s close. I can feel her and every night before I go to bed. I go out and I say, Caylee, the moon, the stars and the
sky, sweetheart. Mommy loves you. Jojo and CC love you. Uncle E loves you. Maui. Everybody, you know. So just -- we`re doing everything we can,
sweetheart.
I`m doing everything I can. Everything I can to help you and to help her. I wish there was more I could do. I would give my life right now for you and
for her.
ANTHONY: I know that, dad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So would mom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: So Cheney, what was that? Was that all a deliberate act for the tape?
MASON (via telephone): You know, it`s hard to do this like this when I`m interrupted. George testifies secretly before a grand jury and never
revealed that. George, whatever he did, he did a history.
No one said that he forced her to say or do anything. No one ever said that in this case. All we know is what did happen and what Casey had reported
historically that put her in a mindset of being fearful --
BANFIELD: I asked you, Cheney, to answer to that videotape, that jailhouse tape. What were they doing? If the two of them knew all along that baby was
dead, that the baby died in the pool, what was that tape?
MASON (via telephone): I don`t know who you`re saying -- Casey didn`t know at that point in time. I told you that the Venetian blinds in her mind have
been closed. What George knew or not, who knows? He was working as an agent for the police. He went to the grand jury. He testified to what he wanted
to do. We don`t know what he said. All I know is --
BANFIELD: Did he tell them, Cheney, that the judge in this case has said that he believes that Casey killed Caylee with chloroform? I rarely hear
that after murder trial
[20:35:00] that the judge himself believed that your client killed her daughter. Does that trouble you?
MASON (via telephone): No, it doesn`t trouble me because the judge had no ethical right to do what he did or state his opinions about that. He
doesn`t have the right to do that. And he was wrong. There was no evidence whatsoever that chloroform was ever used in this case, period.
No matter what the prosecutor or the judge tried to assert. We scientifically established that that was -- what is now being said as fake
news. I don`t like that phrase. The bottom line is, there was no evidence of any chloroform used in the case whatsoever. No signs, no forensics.
BANFIELD: Well, other than the smell.
MASON (via telephone): Pardon?
BANFIELD: Let me ask you about today. You say that you`re in regular contact with Casey. I know she lived for a time with you as well and I
think your wife --
MASON (via telephone): You`re wrong. See, this is wrong.
BANFIELD: You had told me that.
MASON (via telephone): This is wrong. And I`m getting tired of people saying what they don`t know. Casey has never lived with me for a time or
any other time. She had been here for hearings where she spent the night with me and my wife and my mother-in-law. She`s never lived here. That`s a
National Enquirer stuff. It`s below you.
BANFIELD: Well, you know, I covered that case and I actually spoke with you about it. And you did say that this was an effort to try to get her away
from the crushing press because you an area, a place -- you and your wife had a place that was secluded.
But that`s all right. We can leave that be. I am more curious about her life now. Does she have a boyfriend? Is he living a normal life? What is
her life like day-to-day?
MASON (via telephone): My understanding is she does not have a boyfriend. She is living where she has lived all of these years. She is working all
day every day doing legal research. She does research for a couple of different private investigators and several defense lawyers. And she does
it all day every day.
Research. She`s very good at it. She`s good with a computer now. She`s learned how to do all these things and she`s proven to be quite a valuable
asset to several lawyers that I`m aware of.
BANFIELD: Cheney Mason, thanks for being here tonight. Appreciate it. During Casey`s trial, her other attorney, Jose Baez, made some pretty jaw-
dropping allegations about Caylee`s death and then Casey`s dad`s alleged involvement in it. So, here`s the problem. George was never charged. It was
never proven. There was no evidence at all that George did that.
Casey is free, but what type of relationship do you think she might now have with her dad who she basically threw under the bus at that trial or
her mom? We`re going to ask their attorney, Mark Lippman, next.
[20:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: The name Casey Anthony stirs up a lot of emotion and for a lot of people that emotion is anger. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today and it smells like there`s a dead body in the damn
car.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our whole lives turned upside down looking for this little girl.
ANTHONY: I know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Your two-year-old child is still missing and it appears you`ve shown no regret or concern.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): God almighty will judge Casey Anthony.
ANTHONY: Do you understand how I feel?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get off your (bleep) and look for my granddaughter.
ANTHONY: I know in my heart she`s not far. I can feel it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): No more lies. What happened to Caylee?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): You do know.
ANTHONY: My entire life has been taken from me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is my daughter not telling the truth? She knows a lot more about what`s going on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Look what you`ve done.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BANFIELD: Mark Lippman is the attorney for Casey`s parents, George and Cindy Anthony. He joins me live now from Orlando. Mark, thanks so much for
being on tonight. How are they doing?
MARK LIPPMAN, ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY: They`re good. We still have some active litigation that we`re dealing with right now, but they`re
doing all right.
BANFIELD: Can I ask you a very pointed question?
LIPPMAN: Yes.
BANFIELD: Does George think that Casey killed Caylee?
LIPPMAN: That`s something that he`ll have to answer one day. I know he`s very upset with the way the defense went. He`s very upset with the things
that she said since the defense. Even her latest interview with AP is just filled with lies and deceit. And it`s just very disconcerting that it`s
gone like this. But that particular question is one that he has to answer one day.
BANFIELD: Because he still hasn`t spoken with her, right?
LIPPMAN: Right. There`s no relationship there.
BANFIELD: Has he seen her?
LIPPMAN: I think they`ve had seen each other, but not for any length of time.
BANFIELD: How so? Characterize it for me.
LIPPMAN: It`s -- again, that`s something actually
[20:45:00] for Cindy to answer whether or not there`s been contact. According to Casey`s interview --
BANFIELD: But you just said you think that George Anthony has seen his daughter Casey since the end of trial. Where and in what circumstance?
LIPPMAN: I don`t have the details of it. I just know in passing in the last few years that there may have been contact but not between George and
Casey, and I don`t know what the extent of the contact was, whether it was telephone call or anything else. I just -- I`ve been -- I believe that
there may have been contact at some point.
BANFIELD: So I know that Cindy has had contact with her daughter. She has said in the past in various press accounts that she`s trying slowly to
continue or at least to maintain some kind of a relationship with her daughter. Where does it stand? How good is their contact?
LIPPMAN: I`m not privy to the relationship that they have, but I do know that this latest interview done by Casey probably destroyed any sort of
relationship anybody anticipated or wanted in the future.
BANFIELD: Did Cindy stop communicating with her after that?
LIPPMAN: I haven`t asked her that particular question. I`m just focused on their litigation right now.
BANFIELD: So, I guess that -- I suppose the question would stand the same way I asked you about George. Does Cindy believe that Casey killed Caylee?
LIPPMAN: You know, that`s -- even from the day I first met them, that`s a question I`ve never asked her.
BANFIELD: Why not? It`s the question on the top of everyone`s mind.
LIPPMAN: Of course.
BANFIELD: How you as an attorney can`t be humane and want to know too. I can`t imagine, Mark.
LIPPMAN: Well, you know, it`s -- that`s a question that if she wants to talk about one day, that`s her choice. But whether or not she believes that
or not, you know, there`s attorney-client privilege that we follow, but the other --
BANFIELD: (INAUDIBLE) like that.
LIPPMAN: That`s something that she -- if she wants to talk about, she can. But as far as the way things went, you know, you saw from all the
interviews and everything that she has done, what her belief was. So --
BANFIELD: So, can I ask you this. What are your meetings with them like outside of the technical conversation that you have with them? I get it.
You have to talk about the bankruptcy case. You have to deal with all the nitty-gritty. But again, you have known them all this time.
You`ve been involved since the -- I know you because of this case, you know, over six, seven years ago. Clearly you`ve got to have a friendship
with them as well. And as such you`ve got to have human conversation with them outside of, you know, the technical case you`re dealing with.
LIPPMAN: Sure. And it`s not a bankruptcy. It`s a foreclosure and counter- suit against the bank. But, yes, of course, we`ve had meals together. We talk. It`s hard to -- I don`t generally hang out with clients. And I don`t
generally go to the movies with clients or those kinds of things.
We meet, we discuss the cases. I, of course, want to make sure they`re doing OK. If they need anything, they know they can always call. But I
don`t want ever to insert myself into any client`s life unless they want me to for a particular reason.
BANFIELD: Can I ask you this --
LIPPMAN: Sure.
BANFIELD: If you`ve had these conversations, you know, I`ve had several reports come in to me personally that Casey has been spotted stripping at a
bar. Have they ever heard those reports? Have they spoken with her? Do you know if that`s true or false?
LIPPMAN: Well, to answer the question, they`ve never addressed that with me. And I haven`t heard any reports about that or seen anything about it.
You would imagine some of the trash news mags would have jumped on something like that right away. But it`s something they`ve never said to me
or -- actually, this is the first time I`ve ever heard it.
BANFIELD: What about the notion that she`s living in the home of a private investigator and working for the private investigator and it happens to be
the same private investigator that was hired by O.J. Simpson`s team? The collision of these two remarkable crime stories could not be more bizarre.
Is there anything to that connection?
LIPPMAN: I don`t know her living situation. And, you know, you think about the two people that are involved. They`re known, they`re notorious. And the
people that surrounded them also wanted to be known and notorious. And I would think it would be more common than we would think
[20:50:00] that people that are involved in mega cases would start talking to other people involved in mega cases.
BANFIELD: Maybe.
LIPPMAN: I met a lot of people through this case that I probably never would have met in my entire life had I not been involved with this and
certainly don`t anticipate seeing them again.
BANFIELD: Mark, it`s nice of you to join us. Thanks so much for your time tonight.
LIPPMAN: Thanks for having me, I appreciate it.
BANFIELD: "How It Really Happened." The Casey Anthony story premieres this Sunday at 9:00 p.m. on HLN. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: In spite all the current controversy surrounding football, the passion for the sport absolutely runs deep. And this week`s CNN hero is
sharing that love of the game with kids who really don`t get a lot of opportunity to take
[20:55:00] the field themselves. Meet Blake Rockwell.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLAKE ROCKWELL, CNN HERO: When you have a child who is dealing with a life- threatening illness, their treatment protocol might be two, three years, and their tanks start to go dry. You a big OU fan?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am.
ROCKWELL: Awesome. Our game day experiences provide an opportunity for a family to get out as a family just being there together. And days like
this, they really motivate the kids to continue their fight.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: To get the full VIP all-access experience that Blake gives to these kids, go to cnnheroes.com. Thank you, everybody, for watching. Thank
you, Jeff Gold (ph), for being here tonight, to see you again after all these years.
"Forensic Files" begins right after this quick break, so stay tuned.
[21:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
