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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield

Mom Falls From Cliff, Family Says It`s Murder; Death Lawsuit; Dramatic Shootout. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired October 17, 2017 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HOST (voice-over): This ain`t no juice bar.

O.J. SIMPSON, FORMER NFL STAR: I haven`t made any excuses in the nine years that I`ve been here, and I`m not trying to make an excuse now.

BANFIELD: Two weeks after walking out of prison.

SIMPSON: And I`ve never had an alcohol problem.

BANFIELD: O.J. Simpson hits a wine bar in Vegas.

SIMPSON: If I would have made a better judgment back then, none of this would have happened.

BANFIELD: Looking more like James Bond, he chats up three different women, all within days of being skewered on "SNL."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Orenthal James. But you know I did have a nickname for a little while. Juice.

(LAUGHTER)

BANFIELD: Just what is he allowed to do while on parole?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s like a real horror movie.

BANFIELD: It is nothing short of unspeakable.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was Friday the 13th.

BANFIELD: A young mom turns on the oven.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s had issues from a baby.

BANFIELD: And cops say he put her two baby boys inside.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have no remorse for the momma.

BANFIELD: Now her family says a 3-year-old brother saw the whole thing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He know what happened. He talks about it all the time.

BANFIELD: Young and beautiful, she had her whole life ahead of her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is extremely painful.

BANFIELD: But she plunged to her death from a slippery cliff.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I honestly never wanted to come back here.

BANFIELD: Did she fall or was she pushed?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I really have done everything in my power to forget about this place.

BANFIELD: Now the man who was with her returns to the scene, telling "Inside Edition"...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a chapter in my life that I wish had never happened.

BANFIELD: But her family believes Steven Nichols (ph) got away with murder.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He doesn`t care one iota about what happened up there.

BANFIELD: A beautiful realtor, a phony buyer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Target of opportunity for him.

BANFIELD: And a kidnapping that led to her murder.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I never denied her going with me. As far as kidnapping, I`ve never kidnapped anybody.

BANFIELD: Now her real estate company is being sued. Did they train her and protect her? Was it their fault?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn`t kill her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just sorry it all happened. I just want it all over.

BANFIELD: Bullets fly right past an officer`s dashcam. That`s what happens when cops pull over a driver who turns out to be wanted for murder.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Good evening, everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. This is PRIMETIME JUSTICE.

Well, it didn`t take long -- It sure didn`t take O.J. very long. Just two weeks since walking out of a Nevada lock-up, O.J. Simpson has been spotted

back in a bar and living the high life, just like he did nine years ago before his robbery and kidnapping conviction put him away for a decade.

The choice of venue for the juice, the Grape Street Wine Bar and Cellar, which is billed as an intimate setting in Las Vegas.

He was seen chatting up a few ladies there, too, not one, not two, but three different ladies. And he looked right at home, too. He was dressed

in black slacks and untucked dress shirt, and he was sipping from a martini glass, no idea what was in that martini glass or if it was shaken or

stirred But remember what O.J. said just months back at his parole hearing?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SIMPSON: I don`t think anybody has ever accused me of having an alcohol problem or any kind of substance problem. Of course, on that day, I had

drinks on that day, but it was a wedding celebration. But I`ve never had a substance problem at all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: But here`s the deal. Getting the least bit tipsy would be a violation of his parole conditions. But honestly, it`s impossible to tell

from these photos if he drank himself up to or even over the legal limit, which is, by the way, for him .08, just like for drunk drivers. But back

to the subject of kicking (ph) back with the ladies. The scene at the wine bar was eerily similar to a "Saturday Night Live" skit from last week, when

Keenan Thompson (ph) played O.J. Simpson on a blind date with a young woman from way over there in Bosnia, who had no idea who he was.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So O.J. -- is that a nickname?

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, actually, it`s my first and middle names, Orenthal James. But you know, I did have a nickname for a little while, juice, as

in juice is loose.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Loose from what?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just a juice container, I guess. You know, it`s silly, silly.

[20:05:00]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, for the lady, we have the halibut and for the gentleman, we have the steak, the lamb chops and the burgers and fries.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, I can`t believe you ordered all that!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m sorry, I`m starving. I feel like I haven`t eaten a decent meal in years.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: All kidding aside, there is an important question. Just what is O.J. and what isn`t O.J. allowed to do now that the juice is loose? And

just how far can he push the envelope, especially since he is arguably the most famous parolee on the strip, if not on the continent?

Joining me now, Malcolm Lavergne. He`s O.J. Simpson`s current attorney, and Ozzie Fumo, who is O.J. Simpson`s former attorney. They both join me

live from Las Vegas tonight. Gentlemen, thank you both for being with me. And I couldn`t have picked two better guests because I know both of you

know all of the answers to the questions I`m about to ask you.

And Malcolm, if it`s OK, I`d like to begin with you. First and foremost, I can only imagine you had a few words with your client as he was getting

prepared to leave Lovelock about his parole conditions and how important it was going to be to walk the straight and narrow. How do you feel about

these pictures?

MALCOLM LAVERGNE, ATTORNEY FOR O.J. SIMPSON: I`m comfortable with those photos, and Mr. Simpson has walked the straight and narrow. The terms of

his release for parole states specifically that he cannot drink to excess, which, as you correctly noted, is he can`t have a blood alcohol of .08.

Being at a bar is totally reasonable. And even having a drink in his hand is totally reasonable.

Mr. Simpson and I have talked about this many times. He`s prepared for these situations. He`s not out seeking these women. People come up and

talk to him. He`s obviously very famous, so he`s not out women-hunting. He`s just being very sociable.

He`s probably has had to take a thousand selfies at this point. He`s used to the selfie now. He`s adapted to that. And he`s very comfortable with

his surroundings. So he knows that. He actually -- I don`t know if most people know this, you can buy a breathalyzer, your own breathalyzer on

Amazon and get it anywhere, 30 bucks to even as high as 130 bucks, and have that with you, and can actually check yourself to see what your alcohol

level is.

BANFIELD: Did you -- did you ever -- did you ever recommend that he do that? Because I know your preference from previous conversations is that

he have no alcohol. He is just too much under -- he`s not your average parolee. I think we can all agree. So did you recommend that he get one

of these little devices?

LAVERGNE: Well, not only recommend, but he has that device. So he does have that device, and he`s going to be self-regulating himself. Mr.

Simpson knows the terms of his parole. He`s a very grown man...

BANFIELD: He carries it with him?

LAVERGNE: He`s even older than my father.

BANFIELD: He carries a breathalyzer with him?

LAVERGNE: Yes. I`ve seen it. I`ve seen it. It`s a little (INAUDIBLE)

BANFIELD: Did he have it that night?

LAVERGNE: ... go look at them. I haven`t asked him about whether he had it that night. Mr. Simpson does his own thing. I can`t monitor him like

I`m his parent. So all I know is that Mr. Simpson is totally in compliance with the terms of his parole. And if he a social martini in his hand, I`m

comfortable with that. Obviously, if you`re any lawyer out there and Mr. Simpson`s your client, in an ideal world, you`d say, Well, just stay away

from it altogether. But he obviously can go out and do these types of things on (INAUDIBLE) and he`s totally compliant with the conditions of his

parole.

BANFIELD: So let me ask you this, Ozzie Fumo, if I can. I`m going to repeat what I just said. He`s not the average parolee, and any iPhone

within a hair`s breadth of him is going to be rolling when O.J. Simpson walks into any kind of establishment that -- really, any kind of

establishment...

OZZIE FUMO, FORMER O.J. SIMPSON ATTORNEY: Absolutely.

BANFIELD: ... alcohol or not. So my question for you is, does he need to behave differently? Does he need to walk a straighter or narrower line?

And what kind of an effect do those photos have on, say, his parole officer?

FUMO: Well, in Nevada, first of all, you know, a parole is a privilege and not a right. But he`s earned that privilege by his good behavior while he

was in prison. And the parole officer may have a conversation with him about it, but like Mr. Lavergne just said, as long as he doesn`t drink to

excess, as long as he`s acting in a socially acceptable behavior while he`s out there, I think it`s a great idea that he has the breath alcohol device

with him so he can check himself.

If I was Mr. Simpson, I would probably take a taxicab or have a driver with me at all times and not even risk driving under the influence. But if he

is going to go out, he`s totally entitled to do that based on the privilege that he`s earned. Like I said, I`m not saying it`s a right to be on

parole, but it`s a privilege that he`s earned and he has the right to go out and socialize with people.

BANFIELD: So I suppose the question would be, I don`t know who his parole officer is and I don`t know if he`s tough and angry and is a fan or a foe

of O.J.`s or somewhere in between. But my feeling is, is that the state of Nevada has kind of had it. And this would be the kind of behavior they

would think was pushing it a little too far two weeks out of lock-up.

So in that respect, would they launch an investigation? Would they go to the bar and say, Show me the receipts, I want to talk to the waitress, how

many martinis did you serve him? How many did he consume? Because short of getting a measurement so many days out, you can`t do it. Would the

interviews suffice?

[20:10:12]FUMO: No, I don`t think the interview would suffice. I think if Mr. Simpson had committed a crime, like I said, driven under the influence

or been in those photos obviously sloppy drunk, something like that, maybe they would enter into an investigation. But the parole officers he in

Nevada, they want to help the parolee get back and meld into society. And their job is really to protect society from an individual from, say,

drinking too much or committing a new crime.

But they also want to help him acclimate back in, as well. So they may have someone go talk to him. I`m not saying like a social worker type of

thing, but see when he goes out to more or less check himself. But they`re not going to launch an investigation over a couple of drinks at a bar.

BANFIELD: And so were`s why I was so interested. And I`ll field this question to both of you, and you can talk amongst yourselves on it, too.

We covered a very high-profile case of a young man was dubbed in the media the "affluenza teen," who, you know, was -- was let out on the condition

that he not touch alcohol. And a photo surfaced of him playing beer pong. And no one was able to measure his blood alcohol level, but that photo was

enough for the judge to haul him back. And it was a violation, and so photos can be very powerful in some jurisdictions with some officials in

some jurisdictions. I just wondered if that would be the case with a high- profile parolee like O.J. Simpson in a state like Nevada, that is -- you know, all eyes are on him and thereby on Nevada. What do you think,

Malcolm?

LAVERGNE: Well, it`s two different situations. The parole -- the Nevada parole commission could have said, You`re prohibited from drinking any

alcohol while you`re on parole. That`s one thing they could have done. They didn`t choose that option. They chose the option of not drinking to

excess. So if they had banned him from alcohol and I had seen photos like that, you can bet I`d have a serious conversation with him and get ahead --

and get right in front of...

BANFIELD: And you don`t think that...

(CROSSTALK)

LAVERGNE: ... his parole officer and get him off the case.

BANFIELD: And I`m not splitting hairs, not splitting hairs, but a martini -- I can`t drink one of them, honest to God Now, you know, I weigh a

little less than he does, but a martini`s not just a little drink and they go down pretty quick. So it might feel different or it might seem

different to have a glass of wine or a beer as opposed to martinis.

LAVERGNE: Listen, I understand everything you`re saying, and I never saw any of the photos where he was actually drinking from it. Not saying he

wasn`t drinking from it, but there -- we`ve had this conversation about people being out, and typically, like if you`re in an employment setting,

you may grab one drink and you`re not even much of a drinker. You may sip on it just to be out and to be sociable with people and you have no --

you`re not an alcoholic or anything like that. I think that`s the behavior Mr. Simpson...

BANFIELD: OK.

LAVERGNE: ... is going to be engaging in, is just simply...

BANFIELD: Fair enough.

LAVERGNE: ... having a drink in his hand to be social.

BANFIELD: Can I ask you -- I know you were out with him -- it`s such a bizarre idea that F. Lee Bailey was in town, former criminal defense

attorney from the 1995 trial...

LAVERGNE: Yes.

BANFIELD: ... and you and F. Lee Bailey and O.J. Simpson and another fellow I didn`t recognize were out sort of sitting around a table -- was

it, what, last night or -- I think it was last night.

LAVERGNE: Yes, it was last night, yes. And it was a great honor...

BANFIELD: What was that about?

LAVERGNE: ... to meet F. Lee Bailey.

BANFIELD: What was the meeting for?

LAVERGNE: It was just dinner, and it was an opportunity for me. You know, I actually -- to tell you the truth, I wasn`t there to be with Mr. Simpson,

I was there to meet F. Lee Bailey, who was a legal legend in his time. So I was just out and it was just simply dinner, and that was -- that was all

that was going on is having dinner and meeting a legend.

BANFIELD: Did O.J. mention anything about the "SNL" skit? I mean, look, it was really, really funny, unless you`re probably O.J. Simpson. Or maybe

not. Maybe he thought it was funny.

LAVERGNE: Well, you know what? We talked about the skit. I laughed one time during it. I thought it -- you know, I can`t question Lorne Michaels.

I thought it could have even been funnier. But we did talk about and he had -- Mr. Simpson doesn`t mind that. He can laugh at himself, as well.

He thought it could have been funnier, too.

BANFIELD: I want to ask you guys to hold on for a moment because Gloria Allred is with me now on the phone from Los Angeles. She represented

Nicole Brow`s family during the O.J. Simpson murder trial.

Gloria, you`ve probably seen the photos of O.J. Simpson at a wine bar. You`ve probably heard what both Malcolm and Ozzie have talked about. You

know, by the letter of the law, nothing wrong with that, but there`s something that I`m sure might rub you the wrong way with regard to what it

appears to look like.

GLORIA ALLRED, REPRESENTED BROWN FAMILY DURING O.J. MURDER TRIAL (via telephone): Yes, I`m looking at the photo right now. I`m sorry the Skype

just went down all over but -- and came back up too late. But I`m looking at the photo. I don`t see food in front of Mr. Simpson. I do see his hand

next to what looks like a glass of beer. But who knows? Maybe beer is food to him.

Having said that, we`ll see whether he can comply with all the terms and conditions of his parole because if he doesn`t, then he`s going to have to

go back in and have a hearing and potentially have to serve out the rest of his term in custody, incarcerated, which is where I think he belongs in the

first place.

[20:15:06]I mean, I think that parole board hearing was terrible. You know, this whole issue of he`s had a conflict-free life that he said, and

the board not pursuing that and not asking him about the fact that a civil jury found him liable for killing two human beings, Nicole Brown Simpson,

may she rest in peace, and Ronald Goldman, and ordered that he pay punitive damages -- damages because -- to punish him because the jury had to find

and did find that...

BANFIELD: Gloria?

ALLRED: ... what he did kill Nicole and Ron shocks the conscience of the community.

BANFIELD: I want to get back -- yes, I want to get back to the photos for a moment. And just (INAUDIBLE) this recent media. Look I think a lot of

people laughed at that skit on "SNL," but I can`t imagine that the Brown family would have laughed at it or the Goldmans, for that matter. I`m just

wondering how they have prepared themselves for the media onslaught that was certain to happen because anybody who sees O.J. Simpson is going to

roll tape and then sell pictures.

ALLRED: Yes. You know, I don`t know, but I can say this. I mean, when he got out, there was going to be a lot more media coverage, but then came the

Las Vegas shooting, massacre, and what a catastrophe for the poor people in Las Vegas who were shot, who were injured, some of whom were killed and

their families. So less coverage of Simpson, and rightfully so, more coverage of the victims of the shooting.

But you know, to see him out there -- this is a man who was convicted of numerous felonies, and even though he was acquitted of the murder having

found -- been liable for that, and...

BANFIELD: Yes.

ALLRED: You know, there`s going to be a bill introduced or hit has been introduced, and I was there with assembly member Lisa Krasner (ph) of

Nevada. That bill is going to make changes in the parole board hearings in the future, Ashleigh, so that domestic violence will be a factor, in future

considerations of which inmates should be released or not...

BANFIELD: Well, then tell that...

(CROSSTALK)

ALLRED: ... going to have to testify under oath, if that bill is passed. He didn`t. In many ways, he just lied through his teeth.

BANFIELD: And until that happens, it`s business as usual and the pictures that we see are probably not the last of the pictures of O.J. resuming his

life. I want to thank Gloria Allred, Ozzie Fumo and Malcolm Lavergne for talking us through what I don`t think is going to be the last conversation

about this. Thank you, gentlemen, and thank you very much, Gloria.

This headline is almost too horrible to believe, a mother accused of putting her own two baby boys in the oven, killing them. What type of

person could do such a thing?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:22:16]BANFIELD: Tonight, a man in Atlanta is processing the unthinkable after getting a call from his ex-girlfriend on Friday night

saying that his two babies were dead. And the woman who called him, the children`s mother -- police say she killed those babies in the most

horrific way possible, by putting them in an oven and burning them alive and then Facetime-ing their father to show him what she had done.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was, like, a real horror movie. I mean, it was Friday the 13th.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Police say she told him that she left the children with her cousin, but then came home to find the cousin gone and the babies dead.

Cops however, were not buying that story. They say at some point she herself was the person who put them in the oven and turned that oven on.

Shockingly, her family members say they suspected something awful might happen to those children.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I saw that mug shot of her, I knew that was not my little sister. This was something that we saw could possibly happen.

She`s had issues from a baby, and you know, issues that my mom has tried to address with the state of Georgia.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Lamora Williams was arrested and immediately charged with two counts of murder and two counts of cruelty to children. There was a third

child in the home at the time. Police say that 3-year-old was somehow spared, although family members did say that child saw the whole thing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He talks about his brothers, you know what I`m saying? He know what happened. He talks about it all the time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Tina Douglas is an anchor and reporter for newsradio 106.7. She joins me live from Atlanta. Tina, this would be the part of the story

where I introduce you and I ask you, Tell me I have it wrong. Tell me there`s a detail that got mixed up. Tell me that this didn`t happen the

way police are suggesting it did.

TINA DOUGLAS, NEWSRADIO 106.7: We are all been shaking our heads about this story ever since hearing about it over the weekend. It is hard to

understand how a mother could do this. According to police, they say that she is responsible for their deaths. As of now, we don`t really know if

the burns were the cause of death. We are waiting an autopsy to find out the exact cause.

BANFIELD: And is it true, Tina, that reporters saw an oven being removed by forensic investigators, taken away for testing?

DOUGLAS: Yes, we did see that on Sunday where investigators were loading the oven from that apartment onto a truck, presumably to examine for

evidence.

[20:25:02]BANFIELD: I want to bring in Joseph Scott Morgan. He`s a certified death investigator and a professor of forensics at Jacksonville

State University, joins me from Jacksonville, Alabama,

Professor, I feel as though anybody -- if this ever gets to a courtroom, anyone sitting in that jury box is going to feel the way I do. This can`t

possibly be true. You better show me the goods to prove it. What kind of goods would they be able to find if they have that oven and they are

testing that over and they have those little babies, age 1 and age 2, and they`re doing the autopsies?

JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: Yes, Ashleigh, this is a horrible story. And I think the first thing that they`re going to be

doing is if this alleged story is true, one of the things they`re going to have to do is do an internal measurement on the interior of the oven.

They`re measured in cubic inches. You want to see can they actually -- can this over actually accommodate these two little kids? And secondly, the

functionality of the oven. Would it have been capable to do these types of things? And what kind of evidentiary issues are there involved in this?

I don`t want to get too graphic, but one of the things that we would look for within the interior of that oven is going to be tissue. That`s a

horrible thing to hear, but that`s what we would be talking about.

Taking it a step further, Ashleigh, the idea here is -- this sounds very well planned. It`s hard to even fathom that someone would actually do

something like this, and that this was thought up is just beyond the pale. But with that in consideration, is there a long-term history of abuse?

Most of all, is there evidence of prior abuse on the bodies of these children? I`m curious as to what the medical examiner`s going to have to

say in this case going back historically.

BANFIELD: Real quickly, Professor, can you tell me if it`s possible through the autopsy and the forensic examination if they can assess whether

those children perhaps were already dead when they were put in the oven, or whether the oven was actually the cause of death?

MORGAN: Yes, yes. I think that that -- that is certainly a possibility. And one of the things that we`ll be looking for, or that will be looking

for, Ashleigh, is what we refer to ante-mortem injuries, those injuries that are sustained before death versus post-mortem injuries. So let`s just

say, for instance, these children died prior to being placed -- allegedly placed in the oven. Then what was that modality of death? You know, what

was it? What object. Was it strangulation? What was it? and then there`s evidence that we look on the body as to insults that occur after

death, that these are post-mortem occurrences.

I`m also interested in the timeline here, Ashleigh, because one of the things that we`re looking is that -- and I don`t want to jump to far ahead

-- is that this mother allegedly had images of these children and she was sending them out. They were not within the oven. At least that`s my

understanding...

BANFIELD: Yes, that`s a good point.

(CROSSTALK)

MORGAN: So I want to know how long this took. Right. Right.

BANFIELD: So that`s -- and that leads me to the former prosecutor Dan Schorr, who joins me live in the studio. That is a big part of this. The

bodies allegedly were Facetimed to the father, Here are your dead children. We have a lot of the stories still that have to be, you know, corroborated,

and they`re not facts and evidence in the courtroom until they are.

However, neighbors have reported that this woman came home at 11:30 at night, screaming and yelling, Someone killed my babies, and that the cousin

who was baby sitting is gone, which would tell you that if, in fact, she did this, she sure as hell tried to cover it up.

DAN SCHORR, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Right, and this is a heartbreaking case, it`s unfathomable that someone would do something like this. And with

something so horrible, we often instinctually think, Well, they must not have known what they were doing.

BANFIELD: Insane.

SCHORR: But the fact that she planned it out and then tried to cover it up, had a story to explain it, shows an appreciation and understanding of

what happened and that it was wrong and that it had to be explained.

BANFIELD: So it`s not like Andrea Yates, where a lot of people figured that this Texas woman drowned five children in row, five of her kids in a

row, and in a complete stupor, sat there and called her husband and said, Rusty, come home, as opposed to running for the hills, I got to get out of

here. It`s a big difference between somebody who`s in a stupor and does something so cruel and heinous, if she did this...

SCHORR: Right.

BANFIELD: ... and then trying to cover it up knowing that maybe there is right from wrong there.

SCHORR: Right. The general legal standard for insanity is whether you know and appreciate what you`re doing and that it`s wrong, and things that

are consistent with knowing that are planning it out, being able to be put them in the oven, set the temperature, use a phone, and then make a story

to explain it away, hoping that people will believe that. If you`re in a stupor, if you don`t know what`s going on, you can`t do all those things

that require precision and concentration.

BANFIELD: It is an awful story. We`ll update it. When we get the results of the autopsy, we`ll update the story and let everybody know.

Dan, thank you. I`m going to ask you to stay behind. My thanks to Tina Douglas and also to Joseph Scott Morgan.

A beautiful model dies when she falls 100 feet from a cliff. Her boyfriend, who served time for this mysterious death, revisits the scene of

the accident.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So this is the very first time that you have been back here since that day. How do you feel?

STEVEN NICHOLS, PLED GUILTY TO CAUSING GIRLFRIEND`S DEATH: Sad.

BANFIELD: Look closely. Sad. Does he look sad to you? You should hear what the victim`s mom says.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[20:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Some murder suspects return to the scene of the crime, but not usually eight years later, and not usually after serving time for the

victim`s death. But one man in Oregon went back to the trail where some say he killed his model girlfriend back in 2009 by shoving her off a hundred-

foot cliff.

His name is Steven Nichols, and he claims his 23-year-old girlfriend and the mother of their child by the way, well, she just fell on that rainy

day. He tells Inside Edition that even experienced hikers would have called those conditions that day dangerous.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NICHOLS: I honestly never wanted to come back here. So this is extremely painful.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the very first time that you have been back here since that day. How do you feel?

NICHOLS: Sad. I really have done everything in my power to forget about this place. It`s a chapter in my life that I wish had never happened.

BANFIELD: Nichols ended up pleading guilty to criminally negligent homicide and coercion. He spent 19 months in jail. But he is walking free now on the

very trail where Rhonda Kristen Casto`s mom says, that man murdered her daughter.

JULIA SIMMONS, RHONDA KRISTEN CASTO`S MOTHER: He totally got away with murder. He has this sickening laugh and this little smirk about him. He

does not care a bit about what happened up there. But I know that he remembers everything about it. Steve, you know you did it. You`re a liar

and a murderer. And you`re going to rot in hell for it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Craig Fronek is a freelance reporter. He joins me from Medford, Oregon. Craig, it`s a bizarre story to be revisiting, it`s a bizarre story

in first reiteration (ph), and it is a really strange story to see these many years later. Why do you suppose he did it? Why do you think he went

back with Inside Edition to the scene of that crime and talk about it?

CRAIG FRONEK, FREELANCE REPORTER: Ashleigh, thank you so much for having me. I would say mental illness. He just spent 19 months in a penitentiary

for his crime. He plea bargained out of a murder case. And he has got a criminally negligent homicide that he admitted to.

Then to go back to the scene of the crime. We`re talking in -- in 2009, 44 degrees in March and you take your girlfriend hiking? You`re out of your

mind. This is ridiculous. This is ridiculous, unsafe.

BANFIELD: The first question most people who maybe have not seen this story and nobody who did would have ask is, why on earth would he do it? And was

it all about custody of their baby and a big life insurance policy?

FRONEK: Yes. A few months before, they had decided that they were going to mysteriously take a million dollar life insurance policy out on each other.

[20:40:00] Now, let`s see. He`s 42. She`s 23. They have a baby. This -- it just absolutely reeks. And he -- as far as I`m concerned, he went to a

secluded hiking area in the Columbia River Gorge, March 16th, 44 degrees, it`s unbelievable.

BANFIELD: It seems -- it definitely doesn`t pass a huge smell test. I actually want to play what Steven Nichols says about the life insurance

question. Because obviously it`s not the first time it has come up, you know, in the years that he has --

FRONEK: Yes.

BANFIELD: -- been facing what happened. Here is what he had to say about the whole life insurance story.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NICHOLS: It was her idea to get life insurance. In fact, she had asked me three times. Did I force her to go hiking that day, which I didn`t. Did I

force her to jump off the trail, which I did not.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even though you pled guilty, did you have anything to do with Rhonda`s death?

NICHOLS: No, I don`t hold myself responsible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So, Craig, the other thing is that Rhonda`s mom absolutely holds him responsible and she pushes it even further. She says he may have

pleaded to criminally negligent homicide, but she says it is murder. And here is what Steven has to say about that claim. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NICHOLS: She told me that she knew it was an accident. She told me that she was angry, that she lost her daughter, but she knew that there just

something tragic happened up here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: It is a very strange concept that you have these, you know, this family that is still grieving, and Steven Nichols, you know, doing this

interview with Inside Edition. Is there any kind of civil suit? Was there at the time? Is it cooking in the offings now? Do we know anything about

that?

FRONEK: I don`t know if they got any traction. This is the next thing, having an attorney take this (INAUDIBLE). I mean, the parents, the family,

what are they going to do here? This is just nuts. For him to return to the scene of the crime and take a camera crew with him, what does that say

about someone? And he doesn`t have any show of remorse on this. I mean, my goodness.

BANFIELD: It`s odd.

FRONEK: To take a girl. It --

BANFIELD: It kind of defies logic. In fact, I want -- if I can, I want to bring in Dan Schorr, a former prosecutor, in the case. It`s such a weird

kind of death. Because there is no one around. And it`s not like defensive wounds would be obvious.

Because any wound you get falling down a cliff could be considered defensive or stone or, you know, it`s sort of like the perfect murder,

isn`t it? If it were and it`s not in this case, apparently.

DAN SCHORR, FORMER PROSECUTOR: There`s hardly any forensic evidence, if any at all. And also, there are usually no witnesses in something like this.

And that cuts (ph) both ways. It makes it the so-called perfect murder. People think if that happened, that person must have been guilty. But also,

if someone was innocent, it`s hard to prove you`re innocent --

BANFIELD: So you`re not surprised that the prosecutors cut a deal with him for criminally negligent homicide? I mean, 19 months doesn`t sound like a

whole lot of time, but again if you don`t have the goods, you don`t have a case.

SCHORR: Negligence is about disregarding a risk that you should have been aware of. So, he is basically pleading guilty for being somewhat

responsible for the death, but not intending the death to occur. Now, he is saying he is not responsible at all.

I don`t see why he would go public now unless he thinks that he is wrongfully accused, that he`s trying to clear his name. Other than that,

it`s hard to see why he wants to revisit it, but maybe he feels he wants to get his story out.

BANFIELD: Poor woman, Rhonda Casto. When you see her, what was going through her mind in those last seconds of terror? It`s a tragedy no matter

how you cut it. My thanks to Craig Fronek. Dan, stick around, if you will.

I want to take you to Arkansas where a realtor is killed while she just goes out on the job showing a house. Now, her family is not satisfied with

the answers they`re getting about all of this and they are suing the firm she worked for saying, that real estate company should have warned her

about the dangers of that job.

[20:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: When you think of dangerous jobs, real estate agent probably doesn`t come to mind. But after one agent went missing in Arkansas while

she was showing a home and then after her body was found buried miles from that home, her family started to ask questions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARL CARTER, JR., VICTIM`S SON: As parents we have so much fear that someone will take our kids, but you never think in a million years someone

will take your mom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Well, now, Beverly Carter`s family is suing, suing the real estate company where she worked, saying that they`re partly to blame for

her death because they did not adequately warn her about the dangers of the job. They didn`t adequately train her for threatening situations or didn`t

adequately protect her from people like Arron Lewis.

Arron Lewis was convicted of kidnapping and killing Beverly after he arranged to meet her at the house. He is now behind bars and sentenced to

two consecutive life terms, i.e., he ain`t getting out. But that doesn`t mean that Beverly Carter`s community does not want different justice in

this case.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DOC HOLLADAY, SHERIFF, PULASKI COUNTRY SHERIFF OFFICE: We knew that her life was at stake. We believed her life was at stake. And we wanted to do

everything that we could to find her while she was still alive. We were not able to do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So the question now is whether Beverly`s family can hold her former company responsible for her death. And whether real estate companies

right across the country have a legal duty to protect their agents. Darren Minor is a reporter for IHeartMedia Arkansas, and he joins me from Forth

Smith.

[20:50:00] Darren, you have been poking around a little bit on this issue today of, you know, the safety for realtors, agents who go out, you know,

and show homes with complete strangers. What did you find out?

DARREN MINOR, REPORTER, IHEARTMEDIA ARKANSAS (via telephone): Well, what is interesting about this too, Ashleigh, is I actually talked to some realtors

today here in Fort Smith who are actually in (INAUDIBLE), and a couple of (INAUDIBLE) and, yes?

BANFIELD: I am struggling like crazy. I know it`s not just me. I think we`re having a really tough time hearing Darren because of his connection,

but I can tell you this. We did talk with Darren. He got a few notes on what he was doing.

And he discovered that local agents in his community in Arkansas were actually in continuing ed (ph) classes today and told him that all the

realtors in his state in Arkansas have to go to an hour-long safety course every year, which is interesting, we don`t know if that is sort of 50

states wide. But it sure is a good idea.

Dan Schorr, look, my mom was a realtor, and I remember as a kid, she was showing houses and doing appraisals all the time. She also told me they

watched out for one another. But I don`t know that there is this, you know, requirement of company to give that kind of training or to do background

checks.

This guy, by the way, had a nasty record. He was on parole. If someone had checked on him, she would not have gone there by herself. But do they have

a case?

SCHORR: Well, they might. They`re talking about background checks that should have been done, training, meeting in neutral safe places. The

question is, what is the industry standard? Not just what is required by law, but what are other comparable real estate companies doing?

What kind of training? What kind of compliance manuals do they have? Do they have written rules about these types of things? And if so, are they

following those rules? Those are the kind of questions that is going to be. What`s the industry standard and did they conform to that or were they an

outlier and were less safe in other places?

BANFIELD: I sort of kept thinking about, like, I was a war reporter for a while. I didn`t have to technically go through training to learn how to

avoid danger. I knew (inaudible) I accepted that, you know, I`m grown up. I wear my big girl pants and I went to war and I knew it could be dangerous.

So at what point is it our responsibility to make these background checks ourselves or take someone along or have a phone call ready to go when you

go and meet strangers?

SCHORR: There certainly some personal responsibility and that may be the defense here, but again it`s going to go, what are other companies doing?

What are other regulatory agencies in this base trying to do? Are other companies doing background checks? Are they saying the first meeting has to

be in a neutral place that is safe and not in the home? Are they giving training?

If that is done industry-wide and this one company is an outlier, then they`re going to have trouble in this lawsuit. But if this is generally the

practice that people are free to come and go and meet who they want and they`re supposed to do it on their own to get safety training, then it`s

going to be harder to win this suit.

BANFIELD: You know, it`s a wake-up call. Clearly the state of Arkansas has done something about this. They got people who are studying and making sure

that they can be advocates for their own safety. If you have the kind of job where you`re alone with people, maybe do your homework. Stay right

there. We`ll be right back.

[20:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: In Michigan, in fact, right across the country, no traffic stop is every routine, all of them can potentially turn deadly in the blink of

an eye. But the one in Michigan was caught on camera. Wait until you see it.

The driver, Landon Harvan (ph), gets out of the car when he is told. But then he runs around the front and he hides in front of the hood. And before

you know it, yes, you guessed it. Shots started flying.

(START VIDEO CLIP)

(GUNFIRE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the ground! Get on the ground! Get on the ground! Get on the ground! Put your hands behind your back!

(GUNFIRE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 5-0, shots fired. Got one at gunpoint. Shots fired. I can`t see nothing. He is still in pretty good shape. He threw his hands up

and I point (ph) him on the ground. He fired several rounds at us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Face down! Face down!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got long guns. Jim, I cover him, you go to the car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I got the car. Watch the crossfire.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If he moves, you kill him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: They mean business. If he moves, you kill him. Harvan was reportedly pulled over because he just so happens to be a suspect in his

own mother`s murder in Alabama. He was safely taken into custody.

He has now pled guilty to two counts of attempted murder with regard to this little incident with the cops. But there is still no word on whether

he is going to be extradited back to Alabama to face the music on the death of his mother.

Dan Schorr, I have two words when you see a video like that and cops like that. Bad ass. I mean, that`s terrifying.

SCHORR: It`s terrifying to be in that situation.

BANFIELD: Watch your crossfire. I mean, they`re in a triangle and at any moment, you know, I don`t know where that gun is. I couldn`t see it under

that suspect.

SCHORR: Absolutely they`re risking their lives.

BANFIELD: If he moves, you kill him. I`m not surprised. I`m not surprised you have to say something like that. Shocking. All right. Dan, thanks for

all of your guidance, your help.

SCHORR: Thanks for having me.

BANFIELD: Appreciate it. Have you back again soon. Thank you, everyone, for watching us. It`s been nice to have you here. See you back here tomorrow

night at 8:00 for "Primetime Justice." In the meantime, stick around. "The Hunt with John Walsh" begins right now.

[21:00:00]

END