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WORLD RIGHT NOW WITH HALA GORANI
Zimbabwe Military: Roadmap For New Leadership Agreed; Tillerson Still Hope For Diplomacy With North Korea; Merkel: New Elections Would Be The Better Path; Human Toll Of War In Yemen; Calls Grow For Libyan Government To Take Action; CNN Freedom Project: Child Trafficking Widespread At Orphanages In Haiti; Argentina Missing Submarine: Navy SONAR Picking Up Possible Distress Signals; Actor Jeffrey Tambor Faces Harassment Claims. Aired 3-4p ET
Aired November 20, 2017 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. Thanks for being with us on this Monday. I'm Hala Gorani. We are live from CNN London.
Tonight, Robert Mugabe refuses to budge. The Zimbabwean leader misses his critical deadline to resign so what happens next? We are live in Harare.
Also, this hour, German Chancellor Angela Merkel faces what may be her greatest challenge yet as coalition talks fall apart.
Plus, new harassment allegations this time against Actor Jeffrey Tambor. We'll tell you how he responded, and whether or not he will walk away from
his hit show.
We start this hour in Zimbabwe. Robert Mugabe is clinging to power by his fingertips for now as his country tries to work out where it goes next.
Let's get you right up to speed with the latest developments from Zimbabwe.
The head of the military says a roadmap for new leadership has been agreed and that talks between Mugabe and his former vice president are beginning.
That after Mr. Mugabe was given a deadline set by his own party to resign.
But here's the thing, that deadline came and it went and still no word. So, now ZANU-PF, the party will begin impeachment proceedings against the
man who has led them for decades. In short, confusion.
Farai Sevenzo is live in Harare following these developments. So, impeachment proceedings will begin tomorrow. There is a meeting, a
critical meeting going on today with Robert Mugabe. Where are we going from here, Farai?
FARAI SEVENZO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hala, I have to tell you that let's just (inaudible) all speculation. I'm very proud to say that CNN is not one of
those news agencies or broadcasters speculated about Mr. Mugabe's resignation because the story is very, very complicated.
Just a few minutes ago, the CNN team came back from the Army headquarters where Constantino Chiwenga gave this statement.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONSTANTINO CHIWENGA, ZIMBABWEAN DEFENSE FORCES CHIEF: The Zimbabwe Defense and Security Services I encouraged by new development which
includes contact between the president and the former vice president, Emmerson Mnangagwa, who is expected in the country shortly. Thereafter,
the nation will be advised when the outcome of talks between the two.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SEVENZO: There you go. That is the Army general, the head of the Zimbabwean Army, the man who initiated this apparent coup as we and the
world have been trying to figure it out and he's basically saying that (inaudible), the man Robert Mugabe fired is going to come back in the
And he is trying to say that they have called this entire operation, "Operation Restore Legacy" that he wants Mr. Mnangagwa and Mr. Mugabe to
talk. Now, yes, we've been talking about impeachment.
We've been talking about Robert Mugabe ignoring his party's concerns to drop down and get out (inaudible) and hand over power. And we've also been
talking about constitutions. The Constitution of ZANU-PF, which requires him to announce his successor at a Congress.
And the Constitution of the country, and of course, all the central committee of the ZANU-PF would ask him to resign by midday did not receive
a letter that he was meant to write the speaker.
So, that we are in a situation really where Mr. Mugabe is now going to talk to the man he fired to try and see the way forward. Now every other bets
in my opinion, Hala, are off until these men talk. No impeachment. Nothing else going on until this conversation is had.
GORANI: But I just don't understand, is Robert Mugabe -- can he even stay in power? He's clinging on. His party wants him out. His countrymen and
women want him out. He's 93 years old. They don't want his wife to take his place. Nobody wants him to stay. Under what scenario could Robert
Mugabe remain president of Zimbabwe? I guess that's what I'm finding confusing here.
SEVENZO: OK. Let me try and pick that for you, Hala. Basically, the Constitution says he cannot be -- basically pulled down of state office.
Otherwise, we now call this a coup. The ZANU-PF Constitution says he can't do, you know, suddenly sort of walk away without appointing a successor to
And the Congress is yet to happen in about two and half weeks' time. But at the bottom of this, Hala, is this point, that we are seeing in this --
the kind of typical characteristics of dictatorship.
Let's remember (inaudible), what did he say when he's at the height of his power. That's the former leader of (inaudible). He said (inaudible).
Basically, I am the state and the state is me.
[15:05:05] Mr. Mugabe has seen no distinctions between his party and the Zimbabwean parliament. He has ignored. I mean, last night, the
Zimbabweans are glued to the television, waiting for him to resign and he didn't do that.
This morning, his parliamentarians, his party were waiting for him to send off a letter to the speaker saying I have resigned, he hasn't done that.
But now, I think the whole thing is moving forward.
You are absolutely right. Today, we watched student of the University of Zimbabwe say he must go. They want his wife's phony PhD to be withdrawn,
which she only took it in three months instead of the traditional three to five years.
There's very little road left for Mr. Mugabe. In fact, there's hardly any road at all. He's really run out of tarmac.
GORANI: All right. Thanks very much, Farai Sevenzo live in Harare with the very latest on a complex situation and we'll keep our eye on that.
We'll catch up with Farai again when we have more news from Zimbabwe.
By the way, I spoke with Valerie Amos, the former U.N. undersecretary general for humanitarian affairs about Zimbabwe.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VALERIE AMOS, FORMER U.N. UNDERSECRETARY GENERAL FOR HUMANITARIAN AFFAIRS: I think the key thing for those of us looking on from the outside is that
given that this is internally within ZANU-PF what happens next doesn't necessarily mean that there will be significant change in the government's
GORANI: OK. So, you are not hopeful that --
AMOS: So we have to wait and see.
GORANI: Eventually, Robert Mugabe will step down or will be pushed aside, but it doesn't sound like you're hopeful that that means there will be
change in Zimbabwe.
AMOS: Well, just the fact of Robert Mugabe stepping down if and when he does is a change in Zimbabwe. I think we have to then watch and see what
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Valerie Amos. And I'll be speaking with her a little bit later about Yemen in particular. I understand the U.S. Secretary of State Rex
Tillerson has made an appearance at the White House press briefing. Let's listen in.
REX TILLERSON, SECRETARY OF STATE: -- one and the same, and I think this is to hold North Korea accountable for a number of actions that they've
taken over the last several months, the last year or so. Some of you will know that North Korea was designated as a state sponsor of terrorism back
So, they have been designated before. That designation was lifted in 2008 as part of an effort to negotiate with North Korea an end to their nuclear
program, but obviously failed because we can see where we are today.
But as a result of actions they've taken including assassination -- assassinations outside of their country using banned chemical weapons,
these are all very, very serious actions on their part to put the public at risk as well.
So that along with a number of other actions that they've taken resulted in their designation now again as a state sponsor of terrorism. I think as
Sarah indicated the practical effect of is it -- we already have many of these actions in place through the current sanctions.
It may through disrupt and dissuade some third parties from undertaking certain activities with North Korea as it does impose a provisional number
of other activities that might not be covered by existing sanctions.
But I think importantly this is just continuing (inaudible) North Korea's illicit unlawful behaviors internationally and we thought it necessary to
reimpose the (inaudible) for that reason.
So, with that, I'm happy to take questions. I'm going to let Sarah referee because I'm no good at refereeing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, sir. Is this move an intent to incentivize Kim Jong-un towards negotiations? I think that there's been
more 60 days (inaudible) do you think that that time table is in any way promising and why wait until we are back in the U.S.? The president said
that there was hope for diplomacy when we were in Asia. This needs to be (inaudible).
TILLERSON: We still for diplomacy and this is -- the timing of this is just one of us concluding the process. There is a very specific
designation process that we have to go through at the State Department to be able to meet the criteria to make such a designation.
And we wanted to ensure we have fully met all those requirements. Again, this is all part of this continuing to turn this pressure up. We continue
to turn the pressure up on North Korea by getting other countries to join and take actions on their own.
We've had other countries and in our visit in Vietnam, they have committed that they are going to curtail activities further with North Korea.
Malaysia has indicated a curtailment. Singapore has cut off all trade with North Korea. The Philippines have cut off all trade.
And just recently the deputy secretary of state has been in Africa. He had meetings with the Sudanese government. The Sudanese government have
traditionally been buying military weapons from North Korea. They now agreed to halt all these purchases as well.
[15:10:07] So, it's taking effect all around the world and we think as it takes effect, again, this just continues to tighten the pressure on the Kim
regime with an intention to have him understand this is only going to get worse until you're ready to come and talk.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Inaudible).
TILLERSON: We're hopeful that he continues this quiet period. That's our objective is that he continues to be quiet as well. This designation as I
said is one that we are required to undertake from time to time.
And we've been monitoring the situation. We wanted to be sure we had sufficient evidence before making the designations. So, this is a process
that started actually several months ago.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Secretary, you mentioned that (inaudible). Is there any indication that that is working and if you haven't (inaudible)?
How long will go down this path (inaudible)?
TILLERSON: We've got lot of anecdotal information that it is working and that we do have our own intelligence sources as well and then what the
Chinese and others share with us that I think the general belief is it is having a significant effect on North Korea. We know that there are current
shortages of fuel based upon what we can gather from anecdotally but also from certain intel sources.
We know that their revenues are down because a number of revenue streams are being curtailed now. So, I think it is having an effect. Is this the
reason we haven't had a provocative act in 60 days? I don't want to suggest to you that I could say, but we are hopeful this period will
And again, I think the president in his address in Seoul, South Korea to the General Assembly I thought he laid out the case very well to them that
he wanted them to come have talks because he wants to deliver a different future for the people of North Korea.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, Mr. Secretary. A couple for you, first, can you give us an example of a third-party transaction that is now covered,
not covered by either (inaudible) sanctions or the U.N. Security Council sanctions?
TILLERSON: Well, there could be certain dual use equipment that may not have been covered under previous sanctions that this would prohibit now a
third-party selling that duel use. So, I don't want to suggest to you that the designation is only going to put a whole new layer of sanctions on
Because again, I think we already have North Korea so heavily sanctioned in so many ways with the U.N. resolutions that have been undertaken, but this
will close a few additional (inaudible) off.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible) can you give us another example of another assassination on foreign soil?
TILLERSON: I don't have anything that I can share with you specifically.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks. There seems to be more (inaudible) U.S. sanctions against North Korea on the way. The Treasury is going to
announce (inaudible). Have you give up on getting China to agree to an oil embargo?
TILLERSON: We've not given up and let me say this with China, we continue to talk with them. First, to ensure that they are fully committed to
implementing all the U.N. sanctions and they have assured us they are, which as you'll recall, the last round of sanctions imposed were very
severe restriction on the import of finished products.
So, fuels, petroleum diesel, jet fuel, and whatnot, but we have suggested to them, look, you control that whole pipeline that feeds their refinery,
you don't know -- you can do that unilaterally on your own if you want to increase that pressure.
Whether they're doing that or not, we don't know, and it is very difficult for us to know whether they're taking actions to curtail all supplies to
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Secretary, earlier today, President Trump said that the Treasury Department is going to be announcing additional sanctions
tomorrow. He described it as the very large, one of the highest level of sanctions. Can you give us any insight into what those additional
TILLERSON: Well, I'd like to leave to Treasury to announce those tomorrow. They are similar to sanctions we've taken in the past. We are just going
out much more broadly now to more entities, but I'd like to leave it to their announcement tomorrow and not jump the gun on them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And do you see today's announcement as more symbolic or is something that really does have a lot of (inaudible) to it?
TILLERSON: Well, I think it is very symbolic on the one hand because it just points out again what -- what a rogue regime this is and how brutal
this regime is and how little they care for the value of human life.
So, in that in of itself I think makes a strong statement just the nature of this regime and I've said, the practical effects may be limited, but we
hope we were closing off a few loopholes of this.
[15:15:06] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Inaudible) if China does not agree to cutoff oil shipments to North Korea, how (inaudible) has enough pressure on
them to come (inaudible).
TILLERSON: Their fuel supplies are already quite constrained. As I said we have evidence that there are fuel shortages in North Korea. Obviously,
the civilians are by and large the ones who can't get fuel so we long lines of vehicles at petrol stations.
We see certain petrol stations that appear to be out of fuel because they're closed when normally they'd be open. So, there are indications
that fuel supplies are already quite tight.
As you know, they only refine a small amount of their fuel needs internally. They only have one refinery that operates and operates at a
low capacity so they were heavily dependent on imports of finish fuel products, which have been constrained significantly with the U.N.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Inaudible) China to cut off the oil (inaudible).
TILLERSON: I don't know that all -- the cutting off of oil is the magic wand or the silver bullet that is going to bring them to the table. What I
would say is that the North Koreans have demonstrated in the past they have an enormous capacity to withstand a lot.
They'll make their people pay, but they have enormous capacity to withstand a lot so I don't want to suggest that we think that one action is all it
could take to get them to the table.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible). I want to pick on Olivia's question about the (inaudible). How determinative was that in the specific evidence that
you need to make this determination and I also want -- I think you and Ambassador Haley (inaudible) can you tell us a little bit about that
TILLERSON: Well, on the assassinations, the assassination in Malaysia was a significant (inaudible) really begin to look carefully at what else they
might've been doing. As you know that assassination involve the use of a chemical agent, a very dangerous agent in a public place, and so that
really got our attention.
One of the things that we wanted to ensure is that we had a sufficient certainty around their role in that particular assassination. So, we've
been working with Malaysian authorities as well and been in conversation with them. Wanted to let them have their own process obviously play out as
With respect to Ambassador Haley and I were just both in the cabinet meeting today.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Inaudible) without getting too much into it that there have been suggestions from the North Korean media about some violent
threat towards the U.S. president. Was that a determinant factor at all (inaudible)?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible) you talk about North Korea using a chemical agent. Russia has been accused of assassination (inaudible) including
using (inaudible) would you consider the same (inaudible).
TILLERSON: I think we have to consider every country that would take a substance like that in use (inaudible).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible).
TILLERSON: I won't comment on that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, Mr. Secretary. (Inaudible). When you balance the impact of sanctions, you talk about the people of North Korea
paying the price. Is this something you are considering when you talk about more sanctions towards the regime of Kim Jong-un?
TILLERSON: Well, it's always a difficult choice you make when do sanctions in terms of who is going to bear the (inaudible) here. The truth of the
matter is the people of North Korea already live under enormously difficult conditions.
And I think what we are focused on is a mission that is going to change North Korea's trajectory, change their path. That's the best way we can
help the North Korean people in the future is to have Kim Jong-un reverse his nuclear weapons program, allow us and the rest of the world to be
engage with them on economic activity that will ultimately provide a better life for his people.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you believe that the United States is running (inaudible) options to respond to the nuclear threats of North Korea?
TILLERSON: No, I do not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, Mr. Secretary. You talked about the limited intelligence on North Korea and on the regime. Is there any evidence of
any dissent in Pyongyang all or possibly reaction against the current government by other members of the Kim family even or other opponents?
TILLERSON: Well, I want to a little careful about how I answer that. What I would comment is you're well aware of the number of executions that have
occurred within his inner circle and within many of the military people that are close to him.
[15:20:13] So I'll leave it to your own interpretation. Thank you.
GORANI: All right. Rex Tillerson, the U.S. secretary of state there making an appearance at the White House briefing. He's discussing the move
by the United States. The move that aims at placing North Korea on the American list of state sponsors of terror.
That list that now currently includes three countries, Iran, Sudan and Syria. Rex Tillerson himself, though, admitted this is largely symbolic.
The practical effect of doing this given that there is virtually no -- certainly no business contacts and links between North Korea and the United
Acknowledging that the practical effect may be limited, but that this is a way perhaps of putting pressure on third parties doing business with North
Let's see, Retired Rear Admiral John Kirby, CNN military and diplomatic analyst joins me now from Washington with more. What do you make of this
move? Rex Tillerson himself is saying, look, this is symbolic just trying to put incrementally more and more pressure on North Korea.
REAR ADMIRAL JOHN KIRBY, CNN MILITARY AND DIPLOMATIC ANALYST: Yes, I think he actually did a really good job providing some context around this
decision. What it means and what it doesn't mean and how it ties into what they are calling sort of a pressure campaign against North Korea.
Really what this was designed to do is to send a signal, not so much to Kim Jong-un, but to other allies and partners in the region and other countries
who may be doing business with North Korea to try to see if they can shore up international pressure against the regimes sort of indirectly. Again, I
think he did a good job explaining the context around this.
GORANI: And it's all down to China, though, right?
KIRBY: No. Actually, it's not and you know, I think clearly --
GORANI: I mean, they provide them with the money for the fuel to continue their program. They trade with them. They import their coal.
KIRBY: No question about it, but we I think tend to overestimate the influence that Beijing has on Pyongyang. Clearly, it's the most
significant nation state when it comes to trade with North Korea. There's no question about that.
But this notion that Kim Jong-un is just going to sort of hold sway or whatever Xi Jinping wants him to do is just not true. In fact, there's a
lot of frustration between those two leaders and their relationship is not all that close.
So, I think certainly China has a big responsibility. They can do more, but this idea that we can just have China take care of it all, I think it's
GORANI: But why would North Korea listen to the United States say, OK, you are putting pressure on our country economically. We are going to go ahead
and become reasonable and end our nuclear weapons program when they see what happened with the Iran deal where the feeling was that deal was
signed, sealed, delivered.
And then Donald Trump comes into office and says I'm decertifying it. So why would any other country believe what the U.S. says or does in this
KIRBY: That's fair argument. And I think you can just demonstrably look back in the recent past year and just the last year or so and see that Kim
Jong-un is not going to be bullied. He's not going to be cowed. He is not going to be threatened into giving up his program.
He believes the United States is an existential threat to his regime and the North Korea people and therefore, he believes he has to have this
capability to protect the regime's survival.
Certainly, to go into any negotiations and he is not ready to do that, but if he were, he wants to go in with any advantage he can have and this
program advancing as fast as it gives him that sort of advantage.
So, this act alone isn't going to do anything to change Kim Jong-Un's calculus that the United States is a real enemy of North Korea. What it
may do as Tillerson says is it may help encourage other countries to increase the amount of pressure they're putting on Kim Jong-un to try to
endure him into some sort of different behavior.
GORANI: All right. John Kirby, as always, thanks so much for your analysis. Appreciate it.
Lots more to come this evening, on stormy seas, could there be faint sounds of hope, Argentina's maybe detecting an audible clue in the search for a
Also, is Angela Merkel facing the greatest challenge of her political life? We are live in Berlin next.
GORANI: Faint sounds of hope could be coming from deep beneath the ocean off South America. Argentinian naval officials say they might be detecting
noises from a submarine with 44 sailors of war that's been missing since last week.
They say sonar systems are picking up noises that sound like tools banging against the hall. That is a common signal from crews of submarines in
distress so fingers crossed, and of course, one would only imagine the agony of the families of the 44 sailors.
That means there is life on that submarine and that some of the sailors. Hopefully, all of them will be rescued. We'll keep our eye on that story.
Now to Europe, and really a rough day for Angela Merkel, there's no other way to put it. She is supposed to be the backbone of stability in Europe,
but tonight, Angela Merkel faces probably the toughest test of her 12-year leadership.
And Europe's strongest economy is in political paralysis. Coalition talks broke down on Sunday and today, the Chancellor is threatening new elections
only two months after the last vote.
Joining us with more from Berlin is Atika Shubert. She's been chancellor for 12 years and amidst all this turmoil with Brexit and all sorts of
elections across Europe that have seen populists, you know, elected to higher offices. Here was Angela Merkel speaking of stability and now
what's going on? Is she really at risk?
ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, she is certainly at her weakest and most vulnerable in years. This is really an
unprecedented political event in Germany. This has never happened where coalition talks really never got off the ground from the first -- from the
get go it seems.
And so, the failure to see these four parties hammer out some sort of a basis to become a coalition government is really her responsibility. The
fact that she was not able to bring them together. She had the mandate to govern, you know, but she simply wasn't able to bring them together.
It was always going to be hard. You had the Greens on the left and the Free Democrats on the right, but there was always the thinking at some
point that there would -- it would be tough, but something would come out of this.
It turns out the Free Democrats walked out so it's now up to the president, Walter Steinmeyer, to sort of give some sort of direction here and what
he's done, he came out with a statement today that said look, get your act together all.
The parties are responsible for coming up with some sort of a governing coalition so get back to the negotiating table and I will help mediate if
necessary. So, that's where the positions were at now, but we're not out of the woods yet.
If nothing happened, talks stall again, it could mean that we are looking at new elections next year.
GORANI: We just had new elections. This will be new elections in the middle of Brexit negotiations. So, I guess the obvious question is, how is
this all going to affect and impact Brexit talks?
SHUBERT: Well, it's going to have an impact on Brexit talks because obviously Germany is going to be very distracted just getting its own house
in order and you know, it also affecting E.U. reforms because Emmanuel Macron, France's president had these big grand dreams of E.U. reform.
And of course, Germany is saying, listen, all of that is going to put on hold until we can get some kind of a governing coalition together. So, it
is not looking good for any of this and frankly, this recent crisis has now caused many to openly ask whether this is the beginning of the end for
So, there is a lot for her to get done, but there's no obvious successor to her as well. So, she's kind of got to slog through this, try to put
together some sort of a government or, yes, she will have to face another round of painful elections in the spring.
GORANI: Atika Shubert, thanks very much, live in Berlin. A lot more to come this evening. A hospital visit that will break your heart. CNN gets
an exclusive look at the devastating consequences of war in Yemen.
Stay with us.
GORANI: Well, it's one thing to hear the disturbing statistics or to read them, but quite another to actually see the suffering first hand.
Let's turn now to the human toll from the devastating conflict in Yemen. Iona Craig travelled there to find out how civilians are paying the price
for a Saudi-led blockade. And we warn you, he exclusive report is very disturbing.
IONA CRAIG, INTERNATIONAL FREELANCE JOURNALIST: It's very easy, obviously, to get to an impact of the war when you are traveling through areas that
have been conflict affected, where there's a lot of destruction, where there's been airstrikes. But it's the impact on the wider civilian
population that you often don't really get to see.
Abdulaziz is a 9-year-old boy in Hodeidah Hospital. And as you can see from the footage, she's suffering from severe acute malnutrition.
While, obviously, it was very shocking to see a young boy in a state like that, he is skeletally thin and he was lifeless, just lying there whilst
the doctors were trying to administer glucose to him.
His female family members were with him. And they'd been unable to bring him into the hospital any sooner because of the cost of getting him to the
hospital. There are many children like him that I saw whilst I was there. The hospital is actually overflowing quite literally with patients.
And so, Al-Thawra hospital normally, before the war, was taking sort of 700 patients or treating 700 patients a day and now they're treating around
2,500 patients a day. And you could see that so clearly in the hospital, it was like a bus station. You walked in there and it's elbow to elbow.
People just barging through the corridors, trying to get access to medical care.
[15:35:00] DR. KHALID SUHAIL, DIRECTOR, AL-THAWRA HOSPITAL: We are overwhelmed by the number of patients and lack of (INAUDIBLE) and medical
solutions and the increase of diesel prices and fuel and the increase of the exchange rate of the dollar.
We have five generators operating 24 hours of day and there's not enough to operate the central air conditioning system. We are suffering from that,
especially the operating theater room needs air conditioning 24 hours.
CRAIG: In that particular hospital, the staff hadn't been paid for more than a year. The government salaries haven't been paid. So, effectively,
they're working as volunteers.
When I was walking around the hospital with the director, people in the corridor, staff, were stopping him, begging for money especially. And he
wasn't able to give them anything.
The hospital is struggling just to operate. And the director of the hospital said to me, if this continues on this sort of level for the next
six months, they don't know if they'll able be pay them in six months' time, the hospital even wouldn't still be open.
GORANI: Absolutely terrible. CNN has also been bringing you exclusive reporting on a hellish situation in Libya where migrants are being rounded
up and auctioned off like cattle at slave markets.
And as a result of this exclusive reporting on CNN, the world appears to be taking notice. Take a look at this.
These are protesters on the streets of Paris this weekend shouting no to slavery. They marched on to the Libyan embassy to demand the Libyan
government open an investigation and now it has done just that.
We've also seen a symbolic protest on the football pitch. Manchester United star Paul Pogba crossed his wrists after scoring a goal against
Newcastle, saying later on Instagram, "My prayers go to those suffering slavery in Libya. May Allah be by your side and may this cruelty come to
And then, today, a strong statement from the UN Secretary General.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTONIO GUTERRES, UN SECRETARY GENERAL: I am horrified at news reports and video footage showing African migrants in Libya reportedly being sold as
slaves. I abhor these appalling acts and call upon all competent authorities to investigate these activities without delay and to bring the
perpetrators to justice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: The breakdown of law and order in Libya is allowing these slave markets to flourish. The Mo Ibrahim Foundation studies governance in
Africa. It finds that no country on the continent has deteriorated more than Libya over the last decade.
Valerie Amos, the former UN undersecretary general for humanitarian affairs, is now board member at that foundation. I spoke with her today
about the situation in Libya and more.
VALERIE AMOS, FORMER UN UNDERSECRETARY GENERAL FOR HUMANITARIAN AFFAIRS: It's an absolutely horrendous situation in Libya. We've seen a complete
deterioration in the security in that country.
A massive internal conflict which is being partly fueled by some countries that are outside that are supporting different factions. We've see this in
many other countries.
GORANI: You speak of supporting different factions. In Yemen, Saudi Arabia is conducting a campaign, a bombing campaign with weapons supplied
by the United States, by the UK, among other countries. And those countries -
AMOS: And I think it's a really good thing that people have spoken up about that and are holding the UK government to account in relation to
GORANI: But it's not producing change that - in the campaign.
AMOS: Well, I think the important thing is to hold countries accountable for their actions. You've seen what at the UN secretary general has said.
You've seen what the UN high commissioner -
GORANI: It's just words. Children die of starvation in 2017.
AMOS: I don't agree it's just words. I think that diplomatic pressure is hugely, hugely important. The calling out of countries, when they break
their own commitments that they have made in signing up to the UN charter.
That accountability, that responsibility is important.
GORANI: As a woman who has written about feminism and race over the years, when you see what's happening post Harvey Weinstein, all these accusations
coming out against men in all sectors of society, including government, we've even seen the secretary of defense of this country having to resign,
what are your thoughts?
Do you think this is a - how will this change things?
AMOS: Well, I think it's really important that women are feeling that they have the opportunity and the space to speak up. I don't think there is a
single woman that you can talk to across the world that hasn't experienced some form of harassment.
[15:40:04] And I think really opening up the lid on this and getting a conversation going between men and women in communities, in societies about
this and what it means and the impact that it has on a woman's day-to-day life is important.
I also think that the work that has been done over the years on tackling sexual violence and the impact of that violence on society that it's also
important that we continue our work around that.
The fact that there is a conflation sometimes between harassment and violence, which allows some wriggle room, I think, is some - in terms of
people who want to say that this is not important and shouldn't be addressed is something that we have to be absolutely vigilant about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Valerie Amos speaking to me earlier. Still to come this evening, the story of one 12-year-old boy's incredible tale of survival. We'll tell
you about that next.
GORANI: All this week, CNN's Freedom Project is in Haiti, most notably discussing and reporting on a widespread form of human trafficking there,
children being sent to orphanages where they suffer terrible abuse. Our Michael Holmes has that story for us.
MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Twelve-year-old Sondi celebrates every day of his freedom. He's a survivor of a little-known
form of human trafficking that is widespread in Haiti, trafficking to orphanages.
"When I was in the orphanage, the man beat us. My hands were swollen," he says. "I didn't like it there at all."
Sondi's nightmare began in 2010 when his family lost their home in Haiti's devastating earthquake. They were still living in a shelter four years
later when his father died. His mother says she was left struggling to provide for Sondi and his two younger brothers.
That's when a so-called child finder offered free food, shelter, and a better life for her children in an orphanage.
"I thought it was a good place," she says. "He told me he would put them in school." They were lies.
Sondi and his brothers lived there for two years before it was cited as one of the worst orphanages in the country and shut down by the government
agency that oversees Haiti's orphanages.
"I thought they were living well," she says, "And yet, they were living under horrible conditions." It is common in Haiti for parents who can't
afford to care for their children to place them in institutions.
There are an estimated 30,000 children in orphanages in Haiti, and most of them are not actually orphans.
GEORGETTE MULHEIR, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, LUMOS: More than 80 percent of the children in orphanages in Haiti have at least one living parent.
HOLMES: Georgette Mulheir is executive director of Lumos, a non-profit that works alongside the Haitian government to investigate abuse in the
country's orphanages. She says many of them are trafficking in children.
MULHEIR: Entrepreneurial people have seen an opportunity. They have seen that foreign volunteers and donors love to give to orphanages and love to
volunteer in orphanages. So, they pay people called child finders who go out into the community and essentially put pressure on parents to give them
HOLMES: The government created an anti-trafficking committee in 2015 to fight human trafficking in Haiti. Committee leaders acknowledge
trafficking to orphanages is a big part of the problem and they rely on support from non-profits like Lumos.
[15:45:07] When Sondi's orphanage was shut down in 2016, Lumos helped reunite the children with their parents. A year later, Mulheir went back
to visit the site.
MULHEIR: So, the first time that we walked into this place last year, it was one of the worst that I'd ever seen. There were 41 children in here
and not one adult. They were emaciated. Many of them were naked.
HOLMES: Mulheir wanted to make sure it was not back in business. She was surprised to find the owner, Jonathas Vernet, still living on the premises.
He invited CNN's crew in and spoke candidly about the closure of his orphanage. He admitted that he hit the children with a whip. But he says
it was discipline, not abuse.
MULHEIR: This is basically the toilet.
HOLMES: He also agreed the conditions in his orphanage were bad. But he blames American donors who came to visit the children and brought small
amounts of food and water but didn't offer sustained financial support. He even acknowledged lying to parents, but says it was all part of the game.
JONATHAS VERNET, FORMER ORPHANAGE OWNER: I'm not going to give them sweet talking, sweet talking. "OK. Mr. Vernet, my kids going to school?" Yes.
"My kid will - " yes.
They lied to me, too. I lie too. They lied to me. No father? "No." "I'm not the mother. She - it is not my kid." They lied to me, I take them.
MULHEIR: I see.
VERNET: They lied to me too. I lie to them.
MULHEIR: If you lie to parents in order to bring a child into an orphanage, OK?
MULHEIR: And if you then get some money or help or goods from foreigners, OK, according to international law, and according to Haitian law, that is
trafficking. You have trafficked those children.
VERNET: Yes. I know it's not something like the way you said.
HOLMES: Vernet doesn't see it that way at all. And Haiti's anti- trafficking official say his response is very common.
FILS-LIEN ELY THELOT, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL COMMITTEE AGAINST HUMAN TRAFFICKING (through translator): Some people don't even realize that
they're committing a crime. So, we have a vigorous campaign of awareness to start to change attitudes.
HOLMES: He says the practice is so normalized, oftentimes the traffickers don't know they're traffickers. And the victims don't know they're
But Sondi knows that what happened to him was wrong. "When I'm with my mum, I have everything," he says. "When I was in the orphanage, I didn't
Today, Sondi is back in school. He dreams of a bright future as a school teacher, so he can be a mentor to younger children. "I want to be
somebody," he says simply, and now he has that chance.
Michael Holmes, CNN.
GORANI: I want to take you back to a story we've been following. The Argentina Navy submarine that's been missing since last week, Daniel Politi
has been covering the story for "The New York Times". He joins me now on the phone from the navy base in Argentina where the search and rescue
operation is being coordinated.
Daniel, what are you learning? What have you learned just in the last few minutes from listening to this news conference about what the - are there
any hopes of locating this submarine and its crew?
DANIEL POLITI, "THE NEW YORK TIMES" REPORTER: They just came and told us something that CNN reported a few hours ago that they had a few constant
sounds coming from the seabed in around the area where the search is taking place.
That was detected by a few Argentine ships. So, a corvette, then a destroyer and one of the US planes, one of the US Navy planes that was in
the area helping with what has become a real multinational effort, recorded those sounds.
And now, they're analyzing it. They're being very cautious about it. They say they don't know what it means, but they're going to see.
When CNN reported it, they referred to it as bangs. I asked the spokesman here specifically whether he would describe them as bangs, he refused to
say yes or no.
So, I think they're being - they're just being very cautious because, as you know, there was a lot of optimism a few days ago when there were these
telephone signals that supposedly maybe came from the submarine. Turns out they didn't.
POLITI: So, I think they're just - they're being very cautious about everything they say.
GORANI: So, if they've detected sounds, does that mean that the search area is smaller because initially it was 490 square kilometers, which is,
obviously, huge. But if they've pinpointed sounds from somewhere, does that mean they've reduced the search area?
[15:50:13] POLITI: The problem is that they're not, obviously, saying that the sounds are necessarily connected. They're saying the sounds are
constant. They actually used the word permanent, which, I think, is a bit confusing. They mean a constant sound that has been heard.
Whether that sound is related to the missing submarine or not, I think that's, obviously, the question we all want to know, they want to know too,
but they're not going to say that until they say they've analyzed what specifically they -
GORANI: And if it is a sound from a submarine, how would a sound like the ones that they're describing be produced? Would it be banging with tools,
would it be something electronic? What would it be?
POLITI: Right. I mean, that's the question - that's why I wanted to know specifically whether the sound would be described as bang. They wouldn't
even go that far. So, it's all speculation at this point.
We do know that it's 360 kilometers off the coast and it's an area that's about 200 meters deep. So, a very deep area. And anything that is - if
there is something that, obviously, any rescue operation would be far from simple, but we do know also that the US has sent a very specialized team of
submarine rescue equipment that could work on that end.
GORANI: All right. Daniel Politi of "The New York Times", thanks so much for joining us on the phone from Argentina with the very latest on this
story. Appreciate it.
We'll be right back.
GORANI: Well, another high-profile Hollywood actor is under the microscope for allegations involving sexual misconduct.
Two women are accusing Jeffrey Tambor of sexual harassment. One of them is his costar on the hit Amazon series, "Transparent." The other is his former
Tambor denies the allegations, but has signaled he may not continue with the show due to what he's calling it's "politicized atmosphere."
Samuel Burke joins me now. Samuel, you've interviewed Jeffrey Tambor and he issued a statement. What are we learning from this statement that
Tambor has put out?
SAMUEL BURKE, CNN BUSINESS AND TECHNOLOGY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Hala, you can't talk about transparent and Jeffrey Tambor, the star of that series,
without acknowledging that this is the preeminent show about transgender people. It is to the trans community what "Will & Grace" was to the gay
But if we put the statement up on the screen, it's one of those, well, I'm sorry if I offended you type of apologies.
"I've already made clear my deep regret if any action of mine was ever misinterpreted by anyone as being aggressive, but the idea I would
deliberately harass anyone is simply and utterly untrue. Given the politicized atmosphere that seems to have afflicted our set, I don't see
how I can return to "Transparent".
Just to be clear, his former assistant is saying that he made vulgar comments around her. And a cast member says not only were there vulgar
comments, but that he also put his feet on her feet, she alleges, and then she could feel his genitalia through his pants on her, and that there was
this type of physical activity going on.
GORANI: So, is he really leaving the show, though, because he is not saying unequivocally I'm walking away? He's saying I have no choice, but
to - what was the exact wording?
[15:55:07] BURKE: I can't return given the politicization right now, which is -
GORANI: So, implying if the atmosphere changes, perhaps he'd change his mind.
BURKE: And what's interesting here is that a source close to the production tells "CNNMoney" that no decision has been made yet.
But this is a powerhouse set, maybe the most powerful in terms of gender identity, women and gender empowerment. I mean, even the show's creator
whose parent is a trans, hence the name "Transparent", transgender member of society, I mean, she's gone through her own transition of sorts. She's
no longer identifying as she, in fact. She identifies as they, Jill Soloway.
So, this is a cast and also a crew that has gone through all types of gender empowerment. So, it's hard to see how he could come back to it.
I just want to put up one tweet on the screen from one of the producers and the lead writer of the show, Our Lady J, who responds directly to what
Jeffrey Tambor said, saying, "I am proud to be part of a politicized atmosphere that does not tolerate harassment or assault in any form."
So, just taking exactly what he said and saying, yes, we're happy to be a part of that. Hard to read that tweet and understand where he comes back,
though he hasn't been featured as heavily in the last episodes, in this last season of "Transparent." So, maybe it could go on without the trans
parent as part of the series.
GORANI: I'm sorry, how could the series without the trans parent. The series is called "Transparent".
BURKE: "Transparent". Well, the other characters are featured - his children - her children, I should say, have featured very prominently in
the rest of the series now.
GORANI: We'll talk more about this. We've got to go. Thanks very much, Samuel. I'm Hala Gorani. Stay with us.