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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield
Billionaire Couple Found Dead in Their Mansion; Kid Suffered from His Own Mother`s Care. Aired 6-8p ET
Aired December 19, 2017 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:00:00] SEEMA IYER, HOST, HLN: Good evening. I`m Seema Iyer, in for Ashleigh Banfield. It`s six o`clock in the east and these are your
headlines.
Sarah Palin`s oldest son Track he`s been released from police custody after assaulting his father, breaking into the home and beating after he was
being denied use of the truck. We`ve got Track Palin`s ex-girlfriend joining us live at 7, you don`t want to miss that.
And the Senate is debating right now as we speak on the final version of the GOP tax bill. This version it cuts taxes across the board but
especially for companies. It`s expected to pass after a House re-vote tomorrow right before it heads to President trump`s desk.
And we are learning more about the Amtrak train derailment that killed at least 3 and injured over 100 people in Washington State yesterday morning,
including that the train was going 80 miles an hour, that is in a 30-mile an hour zone.
The national Transportation Safety Board is investigating.
The Tennessee teacher behind bars for taking a 15-year-old girl across the country. He`s now saying he was pressured into admitting he had sex with
her, by his estranged wife who is acting on behalf of law enforcement.
Prosecutors could make a decision on Tad Cummins motion to suppress statements during the coming weeks.
And U.S. Marshals, they`re still on the hunt for 14-year-old Annalys Clay, believed to be in the hands of her 33-year-old cousin, a wanted felon, who
may have gotten her pregnant. They were last seen at a hotel in Fairfax, Virginia a week ago today.
Meanwhile, terrible mystery is unfolding now, in a $7 million mansion. One of the wealthiest and most philanthropic couples in the world were found
strangled to death in their own home. According to reports, Barry and Honey Sherman`s bodies they were dangling from the railing around their lap pool.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID HOPKINSON, CONSTABLE, TORONTO POLICE SERVICE: Trauma police responded to a call. It was a medical complaint and we had fire and ambulance attend
as well. We`ve discovered two bodies of people inside the home here in the Bay View Avenue in the Colony Road area. The circumstances of their death
appear suspicious, and we`re treating it that way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: Police are not at this time calling their deaths a homicide, but what happened to this power couple, it`s still a mystery tonight.
Jeff Gray joins me now, he`s a reporter for the Globe and Mail.
Also, we have retired NYPD detective and CNN law enforcement analyst, Harry Houck and also defense attorney Randy Zelin. Full house tonight. OK, So,
let`s start off, Jeff Gray, can you please set up the time line starting with, where was this couple last seen and where were the bodies discovered?
JEFF GRAY, REPORTER, THE GLOBE AND MAIL: Well, we`re not sure when they were last seen, but certainly they had contact with family members and
people at work that in the days leading to this, probably the day before. Their house had just gone up for sale and they had been meeting with a real
estate agent.
And that is, we believe been told how the bodies were discovered Friday, a 911 call came in to police. It was described as a medical call at about a
quarter to 12 noon on Friday. And police then attended. And we`re told that the real estate agent was the one that discovered the bodies.
IYER: Give us a little background on this billionaire couple. Apparently, Barry Sherman is one of the well, most well-known generic pharmaceutical
conglomerate owners on the planet? I mean, this guy has been the 12th richest person in Canada for years. He was on Forbes list of world`s
billionaires for 15 plus years. Tell us more about them?
GRAY: Well, Apotex, certainly the company he founded and has driven to be one of the largest generic drug companies in the world, certainly one of
the largest companies in Canada. And Barry`s friends always described him as a workaholic, extremely driven.
His wife, Honey, was more involved in the philanthropy, sitting on boards of universities and various charities.
[18:05:01] And so, the two were very, very well known. Particularly, among the sort of political and business elite in Canada, and particularly
Toronto. They had hosted fund-raisers for the governing liberal party of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. And extremely well-known in the community,
no doubt.
IYER: And just set the scene for when the bodies were discovered. OK. So, they`re putting their house up for sale. Why are they putting their house
up for sale, do we know that?
GRAY: We don`t know. There`s -- I mean, obviously, there`s tons of rumors and unverified information about what they were planning to do. We do know
there`s a piece of property in another posh neighborhood in Toronto that was in Honey`s name. It`s quite possible they were moving or planning to
move there.
They had lived in this house for quite some time. And they say it had just gone up for sale as far as we know, and they were just preparing for an
open house and then -- and then this house.
IYER: Besides -- besides the realtor who discovered the bodies, were there any witnesses? Do the neighbors know anything? This place must have been
surrounded by security cameras. Is there security camera footage? Do we have any other corroborating evidence to determine, was this a murder? Or
perhaps a murder suicide. We don`t know yet.
GRAY: Well, yes. I mean, that`s partly the information vacuum has certainly fueled a lot of the speculation in Toronto. But police did not declare the
homicide. They do have homicide detective investigating it, however. They called it a suspicious death investigation.
IYER: Well...
GRAY: We know that they did question some sort of staff member -- I don`t know, housekeeper or grounds keeper or someone like that who work for
worked at the house. And we don`t know exactly what came of that, so there must be other witnesses that they`re talking to, certainly.
IYER: Well, actually constable David Hopkinson from the Toronto Police Department, he did in fact explained the suspicious nature of this case and
we`re just going to show you this video now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOPKINSON: The circumstances of their death lead us to believe that there may be suspicious circumstances. It`s an investigative tool, until we know
exactly how they died, we treat it as suspicious. And then once that -- once a determination has been made by the pathologist and the coroner then
we move forward from there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: So, are people looking for a killer? Is there some active investigation going on? Are there wanted signs out? Should the community be
in danger at this point?
GRAY: No, the police were very clear about that. They said that they -- there were no signs of forced entry, and they did not see any threat to
public safety and they haven`t changed that, that they asserted that very early on.
But it does obviously that the number of questions that then raises has there`s so much speculation going on about what exactly happened. And
there`s so much information that all the people doing the speculation don`t have because we`re not in the house with the police.
IYER: Detective Houck, it`s time to bring you in, my friend. Let`s play another clip from Constable Hopkinson talking about this concern for public
safety. Maybe there is, maybe there isn`t. Let`s roll it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any concerns about public safety?
HOPKINSON: There`s no concern for public safety at this time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: Detective, what do you make of this? There`s two dead people found and there are zero evidence, and they probably had tons of enemies.
Shouldn`t this be a concern for the public?
HARRY HOUCK, RETIRED NEW YORK POLICE DETECTIVE: No, they`ve been at the crime scene. Just like I`m thinking here. You know, they`ve been through
that crime scene, they`ve seen how those bodies were found. And they probably already came to some kind of conclusion, but they`re probably just
trying to clean up their investigation.
Now if there was if they believe somebody was in that house, somebody just went in and randomly killed them and thought that the neighborhood is in
somehow in danger. The police would let them know.
So I think this is probably looking more and more like a murder/suicide to me. They sound some of the things that I`ve seen but of course, I`m not at
the crime scene, they don`t have crime any crime scene photos. There are a lot of things detectives look for when you go to a scene like that.
They`re talking about that he died from a ligature strangling. Was there ropes around their neck, were their hands tied. Was only one of their hands
tied. Were their clothes ripped off. Were there`s a struggle? You know, these are things that police are looking at.
Was there any indication that there was somebody else in the house at the time. And you know, once they answer all those questions, they should be
able to come up with a conclusion pretty quickly.
IYER: So, interesting. You think murder/suicide is still on the table. Jeff Gray, is that a possibility? Because what I don`t understand is, number
one, what is Sherman`s motive if -- now -- when they talk about murder suicide, everyone seems to making allegation that it was the man who killed
the wife and then killed himself maybe it was the other way around.
[18:10:10] Do we know this? And also, if he was going to do this, let`s think about this. Let`s take a moment and think about -- look at this guy,
with all the billions of drugs around you, why would you hang yourself or hang your wife or hang anybody, just take a bunch of pills and take a long
nap and then you never wake up again.
So, Jeff Gray, help me out, explain this to me, you know these billionaire couple pharmaceutical people.
GRAY: Well, I don`t know them personally, to make that clear. But I mean, certainly, the police have not officially said their avenue -- that they
were pursuing was murder suicide. The police sources in multiple reports to us and to others, said that was certainly the early theory of the case.
I think -- and I`m sure your other guests might have more to say about this, but that looking for strict rationality, when you have a possible
murder suicide, as to how the mind works, we don`t know what was going on. We don`t know any -- we don`t know whether it is a murder suicide, we don`t
know anything.
But in a case like that, I don`t think you can necessarily second guess, you know, what`s going on in the mind of somebody who`s driven to commit a
crime like that. Do you know what I mean?
(CROSSTALK)
IYER: OK. So let`s look at what we know.
GRAY: So that means the...
IYER: let`s look at what we know. He had a company where at the time or approximately around the time of his death, he had, on behalf of the
company, 100, approximately, active lawsuits. OK. So it`s a litigious industry, the pharmaceutical industry. Especially when you`re dealing with
generic drugs, you agree with that?
GRAY: Certainly that`s the basis of the generic drug industry and that litigation.
(CROSSTALK)
IYER: OK. So he`s in a lot of active litigation, and at one point his cousins, his very own family members were suing him for ownership of the
company. So you can look at his cousins and you can look at other competitors as possible involvement in this case. Right? These are people
who could possibly be this guy`s enemy, right?
GRAY: No. No one connected to the investigation has suggested to us that patent litigation or even the litigation between Barry and his cousins had
anything to do with this.
So, but you`re right, this is a guy who was very driven. Had a competitive business, big stakes, big money and yes, there was this terrible bitter
feud between him and some cousins who felt they were cut out of this family fortune, absolutely.
IYER: His estimated net worth $3.2 billion. Detective Houck, how do you reconcile the fact that there may be an active killer on the loose right
now?
HOUCK: Well, there`s a possibility, I mean, like I said, I`m not at the crime scene, and the police aren`t saying that. But they first have got to
come to the collusion -- conclusion whether this was a murder/suicide, a dual suicide or a homicide. And once they make that conclusion, they can
start looking in a specific direction.
Now if it`s possible there`s a double homicide. There should be plenty of evidence inside the house to indicate that. By the way the bodies were
found, the way the bodies were tied up, the way they were, you know, the way they were strangled.
So, you know, when that autopsy report came out, they said there`s something to indicate on that autopsy report that they couldn`t make a
conclusion on whether or not it was a murder or murder/suicide or suicide/suicide.
IYER: Right, but that`s the medical examiner making the conclusion.
HOUCK: Right.
IYER: It`s the police officers making the conclusion.
HOUCK: Right. But there are...
(CROSSTALK)
IYER: And there`s nothing here.
HOUCK: But there are indications. There are indications. See, your body does not bruise after you die.
IYER: Right.
HOUCK: So let`s say they were strangled, right? If they were strangled and died from strangulation, and then somebody put nooses around their neck and
hang them near the side of the pool, there wouldn`t be any bruises from the rope, right.
So, that would indicate to the police that, you know, they didn`t -- they didn`t die from the hanging itself. That they most likely died as a result
of murder. So that`s something they`re definitely taking a look at.
And also, you know, are there -- were there clothes -- was there a struggle? Let`s say if somebody - people came into the house and there was
a struggle to commit murder, there would be -- there would be -- there would be signs of that. The clothes would be ripped...
(CROSSTALK)
IYER: OK. But to be fair. There may in fact, be signs, there may in fact be evidence.
HOUCK: Yes, of course.
IYER: But it sounds like from what Jeff Gray is saying, the police aren`t divulging as much.
HOUCK: Right.
IYER: Now before we wrap this story up, I have to go to Randy Zelin. Randy, I`m really curious on your thoughts. Is there anything that points to
murder suicide?
[18:15:02] It doesn`t make any sense. They had access to every drug known to man, why would you hang each other, hang yourself. It just doesn`t make
sense. It sounds like this guy had a lot of enemies.
RANDY ZELIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And this is why it`s so important, we go down the rabbit hole of all kinds of speculation, there`s only one thing in
everything that we`ve discussed that rings true with me.
For law enforcement to say, hey, everybody don`t worry, you don`t have to lock your doors, you don`t have to keep your kids inside. Everything is
cool.
No law enforcement officer would be that irresponsible if law enforcement didn`t already know something to lead them to believe that there`s nothing
to be worried about. So out of everything I`ve heard, all the speculation, other than -- yes, it`s a little suspicious when two people are hanging
from a balcony.
IYER: A little bit. So you think we should be worried?
ZELIN: No.
IYER: OK. I`ll yell at you in the next block. Thank you, gentlemen, for your expertise and insight.
HOUCK: OK.
IYER: An 8-year-old boy in Texas sees doctors and specialists more than 300 times in his very short life. His mother even tries to get him on the lung
transplant waiting list. Only doctors say he`s not sick at all. And now his mom is facing charges. Details straight ahead.
[18:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
IYER: Eight years old, 13 surgeries and 323 trips to the hospital. That`s what police in child protective services are reportedly saying, little
Christopher Crawford went through. But not because he had a legitimate health issue. No. They say his mom lied to doctors after making it all up.
And so does Christopher`s dad.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RYAN CRAWFORD, CHRISTOPHER CRAWFORD`S FATHER: She claimed that he had issues drinking milk? I never saw those issues. Crying, saying that
Christopher is never going to walk, and that we need to -- you know, that I need to learn how to take care of a disabled child.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: This is just heartbreaking. Kaylene Bowen-Wright, she was charged with injury to a child serious bodily injury. After official say she
exaggerated her 8-year-old`s injuries which put Christopher on a feeding tube. Also saying she shaved his head and then put him in a make a wish
foundation t-shirt, and claimed he had cancer.
Staff at the local children`s hospital say they called CPS when they suspected she was trying to give her son seizures, and now, all of her
kids, all of them have been taken from her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CRAWFORD: No one wanted to believe me until it was almost too late. He almost died three different times due to infections from the 13 different
surgeries. So he has a -- he has long road ahead of him. And I hate that he had to go through that. I hate it, I hate it so much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: Is there anything worse than watching a dad cry? I don`t think so.
Crime and Justice producer Bernice Man joins me now. Also joining is Dr. Michael Lewis, he`s the medical director of pediatrics in-patient and ICU
for the University of Kansas Hospital. He has not treated Christopher`s case personally. And Randy Zelin is also back.
So, Bernice, I`d like to start off with you, please. Can you give us the background. Because this case, it actually started, you know, the time
period, the crime covers is from when Christopher was only 11 days old, up to the point where he`s now 8 years old, this is a tremendous timespan for
any crime, right?
Any crime that would occur over an 8 year period is a long period, we`re talking about this little guy suffering through needless surgeries, right?
Thirteen major surgeries. Suffering through doctor`s visits and procedures. Being poked and prodded, this little boy.
So, explain the time line because so people can really understand the danger this kid was in.
BERNICE MAN, PRODUCER, CRIME AND JUSTICE: That`s right, Seema. So, Christopher was born premature in 2009. And police alleges that 11 days
later, the abuse began. Police say that the suspect and her mother were observed pouring out milk after Christopher didn`t finish it, and they lied
to medical professionals saying he had taken the entire bottle.
Then police later allege that he had at least three life threatening blood infections in the central lines and that he was later admitted into ICU.
There was also as sedated for the arrest warrant that also says that the mother had signed a DNR order for Christopher when he was five years old.
He was also...
(CROSSTALK)
IYER: And Bernice, sorry, before you go on, just explain a DNR is a do not resuscitate.
MAN: Correct.
IYER: So what was the significance of that at that time when he was five?
MAN: Police say that Christopher was receiving hospice care for pain management, and that was when the mother signed the do not resuscitate for
Christopher when he was five.
IYER: Also, I just want to bring out another fact that you had mentioned earlier to me, and that is the grandmother. So Christopher`s grandmother
was also involved in this milk issue when he was just a baby?
MAN: Correct. And they say that she was there with the mother, and they were upstairs pouring the milk out.
[18:25:01] And though, she has not been charged in anything related to Christopher, she was observed pouring the milk out with the mother.
IYER: Do we know anything about the mom`s background? Has she had a history of mental illness? She, I believe she has no criminal record. I know that
came out during this bail hearing. But is there anything else we know about the mom?
MAN: Correct. So the CPS report says she does not have a criminal history, but she actually has a history with CPS from 2015, where they, the CPS
alleges that Christopher had lost weight when in the care with the mother, and that when Christopher was brought into the hospital, he retained his
weight, so there was concerns about his long term health and development, and that could be potentially life threatening.
IYER: Bernice, how many other kids does this mom have? And have they had any similar circumstances, with these medical procedures that Christopher
has?
MAN: Well, CPS actually alleged that the physical abuse is also related to his younger -- Christopher`s younger brother and older sister.
IYER: OK, so there`s three kids total?
MAN: Correct.
IYER: OK. And just give us the status of the mom. Has she been released, is she in on bail? Is she going through a mental competency evaluation?
MAN: All we know right now is that on Monday, a Dallas County judge reportedly reduced her bail down to $25,000 and that she would have to stay
in Dallas County, and refrain from contact with her children if she posts bond. And we currently believe that she is still behind bars.
IYER: OK, so now there`s also been reportedly a psychiatric condition attached to this mom, and that`s called Munchausen disease. We have a
package, I want to show the viewers this video package that gives you a little background on what Munchausen is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This isn`t the first time that a mother has been suspected of harming her own child. Over the last few years, several women
have allegedly suffered from Munchausen by proxy.
Alexis Felton, she was caught on camera choking her 11-month-old baby six times while it sat in her crib in a hospital. Family suggests she had
Munchhausen by proxy. Kathy Bush, mom accused of intentionally making the child sick, forcing her to undergo 40 needless surgeries.
Blanca Montano, accused of poisoning daughter for attention, infecting her over and over again with fecal and other bacteria as the child lay in the
hospital. Gigi Jordan, accused of overdosing autistic 8-year-old son with pills. Prosecutors say she was diagnosed with Munchausen by proxy for
medical abuse of boy.
Tonya Thomas, allegedly subjected her young daughter to multiple unnecessary medical procedures, including a spinal tap, blood screenings
and ultrasounds.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: You know, I remember, I was actually up close and personal watching that Gigi Jordan trial, it was unbelievable.
But I need a little more background on Munchausen. So it`s time to bring in Dr. Michael Lewis. Doctor, can you just explain to us, what is Munchausen,
and specifically with this mom, she apparently has Munchausen by proxy. So what is it?
MICHAEL LEWIS, MEDICAL DIRECTOR, PEDIATRIC ICU UNIVERSITY OF KANSAS HOSPITAL: Thanks for having us on tonight.
Munchausen is a really complicated condition. And the fact that people perceive that their child needs to have more care done. It`s a wide variety
of how much care they can request that their child to have done.
Oftentimes it starts with one condition and then it just leads and kind of spirals out of control because one provider will tell them, you know, we`ve
done this, and we feel that your child is now safe and things are fine.
And then oftentimes the parent think, goes to another person and then to another doctor and another doctor, things just start to escalate. And
oftentimes people are like, well, they`ve been to a lot of doctors, no one`s found an answer, so now we need to do more labs, do we need to do
more x-rays, more MRI`s, and then suddenly you have these kids who have had this very expensive medical workup.
When in reality everybody at the end keeps saying, the child is fine, the child is fine. And then all those things come with time, they come with
money, they come with emotional distress to the child.
IYER: And in this case the child gets sicker and sicker, right, doc?
LEWIS: Yes. That`s what it sounds like. Because some of these things come with risk. Whether you do a procedure, whether it`s doing a spinal tap,
there`s risk with that. If you do a central line, well, central lines have a risk to be infected or generated blood clot.
If you do a surgery, not only are you going to cause possibly complications from that surgery, but just general pain from the surgery.
[18:29:59] So, now you`ve possibly taken a child who really had no purpose whatsoever to have these things done and now you`ve created problems.
(CROSSTALK)
IYER: Well, OK, but just to be clear. Munchausen is a psychological disorder, right? And it`s very rare. And actually, from what I read it`s
more prevalent in men than women, and it also usually hits as a young adult.
The question is, where is this coming from? Could the mom have had a history of physical abuse or sexual abuse or neglect or hospitalizations
that perhaps gave her this disease now later in life?
LEWIS: Well, that`s definitely a possibility, because you definitely know that you have a very -- usually you have a healthy child and then you have
a mentally ill parent. And so something has had to cause that fact in the child from the parent.
So, whatever it was that this mom has in her history, unfortunately it sounds like that it possibly put them at risk for the child to --
IYER: Grave risk.
LEWIS: Yes.
IYER: Yes. Thank you, doctor. Randy, I just want to end with you, pointing out, this woman when she was pregnant, she was claiming she was ill. When
the kid was in one hospital in Dallas, she wasn`t giving the records to the other hospital in Houston. If you had to defend her, it sounds like you
would have a very strong mental health illness defense.
RANDY ZELIN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`ll do you one better.
IYER: Give me one better, Randy. Give it to me.
ZELIN: Let`s take a quick step back. First of all, what we`re talking about here is bail, and bail is solely -- are you going to come back to court?
Let`s put that over there. But as far as defending this woman, putting aside the mental --
IYER: Yes.
ZELIN: Imagine putting each doctor -- you ask two questions, you examined this child, didn`t you? Yes, I did. You approved the procedure, didn`t you?
No further questions. One doctor after the next after the next after the next. And as Dr. Lewis just said, perception, if she perceived that there
was something wrong with her --
IYER: Right.
ZELIN: -- child, goodbye criminal intent. It doesn`t mean she shouldn`t lose her kid.
IYER: Well, come on. She needs a lot of help. I would not give those kids back to her at all. But listen. Don`t you think there`s a medical
malpractice issue with these doctors?
ZELIN: You have -- if I were the doctors, how about the family court judge who looks at the father and said, you`re nuts, you`re not getting your kid.
How about CPS who said, no, these allegations are unfounded. There`s a whole lot of people that better check their insurance policies.
IYER: I know. I know. Randy Zelin, don`t go anywhere, don` leave me right now. A D.C. fender bender took a bizarre twist that ended up with a naked
man jumping on a passing truck and snarling traffic near Dulles Airport. That`s near where my mom lives. She probably saw him.
Police say Jose Gonzalez Flores -- he is hard to forget, look at this guy - - hit two different cars and assaulted one of the drivers before fleeing to his truck, stripping off his clothes, and then doing this.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
IYER (voice over): OK, I`m seriously not joking. That`s the way we go to the airport. I know this area. And I bet my mom knows him, knowing her.
Police say Flores broke the truck`s window and once the truck stopped, he jumped off. He ran away.
He was later found in a drainage ditch at Dulles Airport. He is facing a laundry list of charges, including assault and battery and indecent
exposure. I`m definitely not flying home for Christmas, mom. I`m going to take the bus.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: And a Colorado mom vanishes under suspicious circumstances. And now there is desperate search to find her. More next after the break.
[18:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
IYER: It`s been two weeks since anyone seen 41-year-old Kimberlee Graves, a Colorado mom of two, who vanished from her home along with her car. Police
didn`t get an answer when her friend asked for a welfare check. So, six days after she vanishes, they say the friend then went into Kimberlee`s
house, calling them a second time to report the home had been ransacked.
Officers found Kimberlee`s car last week abandoned in a parking garage just a mile from her home. But tonight, the cops are still looking for
Kimberlee. We are still looking for Kimberlee. This is a woman who is known to be way too trusting.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
DANIEL CORDOVA, VICTIM`S FRIEND AND NEIGBBOR: Too friendly. Letting people in her house all the time. She had a nice 2015 RAV 4, you know, and she
just let people drive it like nothing. The next thing I know, the side of it was sideswiped. The window was broken.
As in somebody keyed bad words into her door. She just started hanging around bad kind of people. I got on her about that, you know, about
trusting people too much and now, look.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: Randy Corporon joins me now. He is a host on 710 KNUS in Denver. Also back, CNN law enforcement analyst, Detective Harry Houck, and defense
attorney, Randy Zelin, still sitting here with me.
OK. So, Corporon, break this time line down for me. This woman goes missing two weeks ago and I`m only hearing about it today. Explain why she was last
seen December 4th, and we`re only finding out about it now?
RANDY CORPORON, HOST, 710 KNUS: Yes, a little surprising. When the police first went to the home on December 8th, this was four days after she was
last seen, they knocked on the door, the car was gone, and so they just noted that she was missing, but didn`t take any additional action.
Two days after that, on December 10th, a friend went in and actually went into the house and saw that the house had been ransacked,
[18:40:00] contacted the police again, got them very seriously looking for this person obviously, then they found her car on December 13th in a
parking garage.
And what`s odd is, we haven`t heard from the police until just yesterday, on December 18th, they finally put out a bulletin or a notice asking for
information about this missing mom.
IYER: We both know, I`m sure how you would agree, the longer she`s missing, the harder it is to find her. So, why are we hearing about it just now?
Corporon, any idea on that?
CORPORON: Ashleigh, there`s been no other information coming from the police department. And why those five days from the time her car turned up
to now have elapsed before they reached out to the community, there`s not a bit of insight to that as we sit here tonight.
IYER: OK. So, let me ask you this. How many kids does she have? Do you know their ages, and did they live in the home with her?
CORPORON: The pictures that I saw of her with children had the children blocked. I don`t know the ages. They do not live with her, however. The
children have been living with relatives apparently for some time.
IYER: OK. So, now, the friend, how does the friend get into the home? Did the friend have keys to the home? Did the friend break in? Do we know what
kind of friendship this is? I don`t know about you, but I don`t give out keys to everybody in the world.
CORPORON: It`s a good question, especially in light of the clip you played from the neighbor, who talked about how she was having people in and out of
the house all the time.
IYER: Right.
CORPORON: Her car going out, coming back damaged, et cetera. But there has been no statement from that friend as to how she got in that I`ve been able
to find.
IYER: Harry Houck, let me ask you this. As a law enforcement person, right, you`d be looking at the bank account, credit card, give me the laundry list
of what you`re going to be looking for.
HARRY HOUCK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST, RETIRED DETECTIVE: Basically what you said, you know, first of all, you`re going to be -- this is all going
on at the same exact time also. You got probably several detectives doing this.
Did she make any phone calls? Any ATM withdrawals? Any social media, from the time she was reported missing or from the last time she was seen?
That`s very important.
So, what I think was wrong here was the fact that, you know, once the police saw that house was ransacked, they should have come out to the
public to try to look for this woman.
IYER: Right. Sorry. Let`s just play because I want you to both comment on this. The Fort Collins Police Department just recently made a statement
about the car. Let`s hear that and watch that.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
KATE KIMBLE, PUBLIC RELATIONS MANAGER, FORT COLLINS POLICE: On December 13th, officers located Miss Graves` vehicle in a parking garage at College
Avenue and Mulberry Street. Detectives later determined that the vehicle had been in use by another person for several days. However, at this time,
it is not believed that person is associated with Miss Graves` disappearance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: So, OK, let me start off with you, Corporon. What do you make about the fact that this car may have been used, any information about any
forensic evidence that has been collected from the car that could connect someone to the crime?
CORPORON: Frankly, the statement released by the police yesterday asking for help from the community to try and locate this missing mom is the first
information that I`ve heard from the police department. They have been silent until yesterday.
IYER: Harry Houck, what would you look for in the apartment? It`s been ransacked. Tell me about -- talk to me through the apartment, the forensics
you would be looking for, to try to find this woman, this mom.
HOUCK: Well, you know, first, you have, is there any indication of blood or that she had some type of injury inside that apartment? That`s very
important. Like I said, the fact that this place was ransacked, is something missing?
And that four days from the time the police came and the neighbor went into the house, did somebody come back to the home and do that? When you`re a
police officer, when you do these welfare checks, you don`t just ring the doorbell and check for the garage for a car. You look in the windows.
I did that all the time. You look in the windows, see if there`s anything. Check all the doors. And if that house was ransacked, if the windows were
either opened or the shades were drawn or something like that, you would be able to see that house was ransacked, and police would be able to enter
right away.
IYER: OK. So you`re looking also for forced entry but you`re also looking for her personal items, right?
HOUCK: Sure. First -- listen first. You take her purse, you take her clothes.
IYER: Cell phone.
HOUCK: You know, that`s very important. Right. Cell phone. Checking those records right away to see if any calls have been made on that.
[18:45:00] IYER: And also be looking for suspicious activity in the apartment. Is there any indication of other crimes going on? Just saying,
it`s a possibility? Gentlemen, thank you so much. Thank you very much.
A fight in a mall spirals out of control with one woman getting her kicks in, while the toddler she was pushing looks on. More crime and justice
after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
IYER: In an ideal world, we all agree that holiday shopping should be peaceful. Maybe even fun. But in Fort Myers, Florida, a massive brawl. It`s
a brawl people. It just broke out at the shopping mall. A baby in a stroller was pushed
[18:50:00] into the middle of this awful mayhem outside a Victoria Secret store. I don`t know if that has any meaning to this story, though. The
video, though, this is unbelievable.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
(SCREAMING)
IYER (voice over): I can`t with this. I don`t even know what`s happening. This would be funny if it wasn`t for a baby. But, exactly what sparked the
brawl, it remains under investigation by police, and the state department of children and families.
It may have been a case of mistaken identity related to a recent double murder in the area. Police say they`re looking to press charges against six
people involved in the fight. The mall says it`s working closely with the police.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: Defense Attorney Randy Zelin, he is back, and he has something to say about shopping in the mall leading to brawls.
ZELIN: Well, look, you can make jokes and talk about this child`s future as a stunt driver or NASCAR race car driver.
IYER: I wasn`t going to make those jokes.
ZELIN: However, there are two things going on here.
IYER: Yes.
ZELIN: First of all, you got the potential for a crime which is any time you act in a manner which could injure the physical welfare or emotional or
mental welfare of a child, that`s a crime.
But what would this woman`s defense be? Very simple, hey, I`m going through the mall, a brawl breaks out, I`m defending myself and defending my kid.
That`s why I threw that super kick that would be worthy of MMA, and that`s all that I was doing.
Good luck with the jury saying, you know what, I can`t say that that wasn`t the case, assuming she didn`t open her mouth and say, yes, I got into it
because it was pay back time.
IYER: OK. Listen. Let`s just back up a minute, because we don`t even know why the fight started, right? We don`t know why the fight started.
ZELIN: It should be irrelevant.
IYER: It`s irrelevant?
ZELIN: It should be. If I am defending the case, I don`t want motive coming in here.
IYER: OK. So, you can play defense attorney and I`m saying as an investigator, which I am not, but I`m going to pretend, as an investigator,
I want to know why did this fight occur and who are the players involved and what is their relationship to each other. Right?
ZELIN: And that`s why everybody should keep their mouths shut when speaking to law enforcement.
IYER: Oh, my God. Can we high five with that? Why do people in this country watch law and order? Everybody watches law and order. Nothing good ever
comes from talking to the cops.
ZELIN: You can only talk yourself into trouble.
IYER: Thank you, another one.
ZELIN: Another one. That`s high 10.
IYER: But I`m saying is it`s very important that people understand this is our constitutional right to not make statements that are going to hurt us.
And it`s always best -- you speak to a lawyer first.
So in this case, let`s say they`re investigating all six people in this video, would you recommend that everybody speak to a lawyer first and/or
have a lawyer accompany them to speak to the police?
ZELIN: Well, absolutely, because imagine if you could split the screen. One side of the screen, the left side, everybody goes in and starts yapping
away about what was going on there. As opposed to the right side of the screen, nobody says anything. If you were watching that video on the one
hand knowing what happened to set the scene --
IYER: Right.
ZELIN: -- as opposed to not knowing anything, how could you possibly convict this woman for doing anything other than defending herself and her
child?
IYER: Now, OK, let`s explain to the viewers another important aspect to this type of case and that is, when you have people fighting with each
other, then this could be a potential cross complaint. So just explain to us, the cross complaint about this.
ZELIN: Cross complaints are tricky. They are exactly what they sound like, which is, OK, you and I get into a fight. You go to the police first. You
are lucky enough to be smart enough to go first. You`re the victim, I`m the defendant.
But I now go in with my lawyer and say, time out. She started the fight. I was defending myself. You, if you`re charging me, you should charge her. So
now, I`m a victim and you`re a defendant. Problem, how does anybody defend the case, and how do prosecutors prosecute the case that have no witness?
IYER: You and I both know the reality. Cross complaints, they both get dismissed, everybody goes home, and they get into another mall brawl. Thank
you, Randy Zelin, defense attorney.
OK, the video, it`s heartbreaking to watch, folks. An elderly woman evicted from her home, dragged out, booked, and charged by the police. Now, she
will not -- she will not be facing any charges. And we`re going to tell you why after the break.
[18:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
IYER: We have an update on a story that we told you about last night. Juanita Fernandez, the 93-year-old woman who was arrested last week after
she was evicted from her assisted living facility, is no longer facing trespassing charges. The state attorney dismissed the case given the unique
nature of her situation and lack of criminal history and hopefully her age.
Fernandez reportedly had not paid her rent for several months, which led to her eviction. She is currently living in an extended stay hotel. But she
will not be allowed
[19:00:00] to return to the facility because of the eviction notice against her.
Up next, a family feud in the Palin household lands Track Palin in jail. Charged with assaulting his dad, the next hour of "crime & "crime &
"justice starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
[19:00:21] SARAH PALIN (R), FORMER VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I was just your average hockey mom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sarah Palin`s family is back in the news.
PALIN: My son, went through some kind of tough times.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sarah Palin describing her son as freaking out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her oldest son Track arrested.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Got into the house and attacked his father.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And beating his father.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Left Todd Palin bloodied.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has a loaning road ahead of him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The now 8-year-old has visited the doctor, 323 times and undergone six major surgeries.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No one wants to believe me until it was almost too late.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Staff began to suspect (INAUDIBLE) might be trying to induce her son to have seizure.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was saying that my son was dying the next day.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Friends are praying tonight for the safe return of a beautiful young Colorado woman who vanished into thin air. Cops say her
home was ransacked and her car found abandoned.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Detectives later determines that the vehicle had been in use by another person for several days. However, at this time, it`s not
believed that that person is associated with Miss Graves` disappearance.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Could she have fallen victim to foul play?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SEEMA IRE, CNNHN HOST: Good evening, everyone, I`m Seema Ire in for Ashleigh Banfield. Welcome to the second hour of CRIME AND JUSTICE.
Tonight, one of the Sarah Palins is forbidden from speaking to his family. But prison time could be on tap for him too. Because 28-year-old Track
Palin, Sarah Palin`s oldest son, was arrested on Saturday after attacking his dad, Todd, at home. Breaking in through a window, and hitting his
father on the head. All of this because he wasn`t allowed to use the truck.
Todd Palin told police, he initially used a pistol to protect his family from their son, who admitted himself he had had a few beers. According to
Sarah Palin who called 911, Track was quote "freaking out" that night and possibly on meds.
Now, this isn`t the first Sarah Palin family feud we have heard about to go public. Remember that booze fueled brawl at Todd`s birthday party back in
2014? And Track was arrested just last year, 2016 for domestic violence after allegedly punching his girlfriend. Something Sarah addressed with
our Jake Tapper.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
S. PALIN: The elephant in the room lately has been my son having returned from Iraq. He was there twice from Afghanistan. Going through some tough
times as so many of our warriors do, trying to get back in the groove of the real world. I haven`t been shy about telling people that, yes, our
family goes through that too. We are like so many other families in America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IRE: CNN Washington correspondent Ryan Nobles joins me now.
Ryan, please just give us the time line of how all of this went down.
RYAN NOBLES, CNN WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Seema, it all started when Track Sarah Palin called his father and asked if he could use the
family truck. They had a phone conversation. During that phone conversation, Todd Palin told Track that the truck was off limits. That
turned into a verbal argument over the phone. Apparently, it wasn`t enough for Track, because later that night, he broke a window in the family house,
broke into the house and attacked his father. It was an attack that was vicious enough that it left Todd Palin bloodied. Police were called to the
seen. During the time the police were trying to intervene in this situation, calm things down, Track Sarah Palin referred to those officers
that responded to the scene as peasants. At one point he got up on the roof of the garage of the family home, he had to be coaxed down.
As you mentioned before, Sarah Palin herself, according to the court documents, basically just describing her son as freaking out. Saying that
he was possibly on medication, although they didn`t specify what medication it was. And also Track Palin admitted that he had been drinking earlier in
the day.
This resulted in three charges against Track Palin. These are serious charges. He was taken into custody. And one of those charges being
assault. So this is probably just the front end of a pretty long legal process for the oldest son in the Palin family. And as you mentioned
before, Seema, another example of trouble that this family has faced. And trouble that Track in particular has been forced to deal with.
IRE: And I have 10 billion questions about Track Sarah Palin who I haven`t heard from since 2016. But before we get to that, it was reported that
after this incident, Todd Palin and Sarah Palin left in separate cars. Do you know why? And was this after Sarah Palin called 911 or did she call
911 from her car? I don`t understand why they would leave in separate cars, and why did they leave?
[19:05:24] NOBLES: Yes. We don`t really have a lot of information related to that. And it is pretty hard to glean or look into that all that much.
You know, the Palin family has been very quiet about exactly what happened that night. They put out a statement to our local affiliate up in Alaska
through their attorney where they basically said that this was a family matter and that they wanted privacy. They certainly don`t want the prying
eyes of the media to look into this any more than they already have.
IRE: Well, yes. Well, Ryan, listen. She has spent most of her life clawing to get in the media and to be in the spotlight. So it is too late
now that she is trying to run from it. But I think it is a valid question. Where did they go? Why would they - they would take separate cars? And
where did they go? Do you know where Todd and Sarah ended up? Were they in the hospital? Were they at another kids` house, somewhere else.
NOBLES: Yes. We don`t know any information at this point. And you know, it`s difficult to say. You know, a lot of these things happened so quickly
and you find yourself in a position where you have to react instinctively, I think maybe in many of these situations. So it`s hard to say exactly how
they responded individually. How they responded collectively.
IRE: Right.
NOBLES: You know, I should point, Seema, that there has been many times that there has been rumors and questions about the Palins and their
marriage. They always pushed back on that. Todd and Sarah Palin have always said that their marriage was strong. I don`t know if we should read
too much into that or how they conducted themselves in the wake of an incident like this. It would be difficult for any family member to have to
deal with something like they had to deal with over the weekend.
IRE: Well, everybody pretends to have a happy marriage, don`t we?
So Ryan, tell me a little bit about Track Palin. So he served in the military. Why is there this possibility that he has PTSD, maybe on
medication? What has he been doing? Does he work? What do we know about him?
NOBLES: Yes. Well, we know he is 28 years old. He did serve in the military, he spent a year in Iraq. And you know, when he was in the
military, it was right around the time that his mother was running for vice president of the United States where she became basically a media
sensation. And she pointed to Track and his background and service to the country as one of the reasons that she wanted to serve her country and in
the capacity as vice president.
But it`s clear that after he came back that life has been difficult for him. Back in 2016, he had a run-in with a girlfriend where he was arrested
for domestic violence involving a woman. There was a weapons charge that was also involves in that.
And that`s when Sarah Palin was talking about the struggles that her son was dealing with as it relates to post traumatic stress disorder. And she
talked about it during a campaign stop for Donald Trump where she said that, you know, Trump`s commitment to veterans was something that was
important to her. And it was one of the reasons that she was supporting Donald Trump.
She has never really got into the specifics, though, of exactly what type of PTSD Track might be dealing with and how that may relate to the things
that you mentioned him keeping a job or holding down relationships. But it is clear that he had a difficult time. This is perhaps another example of
that.
Although, we should point out, Seema, that there is no indication and specifically from the Palin family that this particular incident had
anything to do with PTSD. Because as we said before, they remain pretty quiet as to exactly what happened.
IRE: Ryan, yes. Thank you so much for the background. And we are going to bring in now the woman you alluded to. And that`s Jordan Loewe. She is
Track Sarah Palin`s ex-girlfriend joining me exclusively from Anchorage, Alaska.
Jordan, thank you so much for being here.
JORDAN LOEWE, TRACK PALIN`S EX-GIRLFRIEND (on the phone): (INAUDIBLE).
IRE: And Jordan, is it Loewe or Lau.
LOEWE: It`s Loewe.
IRE: Jordan Loewe, thank you so much for being here. This must be a difficult subject for you to talk about, we all would really appreciate
your candor with this, to get some insight into Track Sarah Palin. Give us some background, were you boyfriend/girlfriend, how did this relationship
escalate into one where you had to get a restraining order, the police got involved, there was a domestic incident.
LOEWE: Yes. So, Track and I started dating just casually in January of 2015. And then about a year later, January of 2016 was the first major
incident that happened which I don`t think I need to go into detail about that police record. They are all public information and all of that, it is
the truth.
[19:10:06] IRE: Well, did he physically assault you, Jordan? You know, the details are important. And was that the first time he physically
assaulted you?
LOEWE: It`s not, no. It`s just the first time that I called the police.
IRE: So how many times did he assault you prior to the first time you called the police?
LOEWE: I don`t have an exact count, but I would say more than 10.
IRE: Oh, my God. So it took a long time and many, may I say, beatings to some extent for you to call the police.
LOEWE: It did, yes.
IRE: And did you suffer through injuries? Did people see you injured at the hands of Track Palin?
LOEWE: They did. I was scared and I was embarrassed. I did a lot to cover things up. I was just kind of a bad place in my life. So I, you
know, wasn`t going out and telling people what was kind of going on behind closed doors. But eventually I did. And now I`m being vocal about it
because it`s a big deal.
IRE: It is a big deal.
Congratulations to you for being so brave. And especially, at the height or at some point in Sarah Palin`s notoriety, for you to come forward with
this is -- it`s incredibly difficult.
Now I have read that after this incident in January 2016 which according to, now we are 10-plus incidents of assaults, by the hands of Track Palin.
You got a restraining order. And then you found out you were pregnant with Track`s child. What did you do at that point?
LOEWE: Yes, it was scary. It was a lot to take in. I started going to counseling and kind of trying to figure out what I was going to do from
there. And yes, I had to make a lot of decisions. But it ended up being great. I mean, I have a great and wonderful baby. But yes, those months
before --
IRE: Jordan --
LOEWE: The pregnancy was very difficult.
IRE: I`m sorry to jump in. Jordan, were you guys living together during this 2016 incident?
LOEWE: I moved in with him in August and then I moved out in November. So for a few months I did, yes.
IRE: So were you pregnant when you moved out?
LOEWE: You mean - OK. So for those first domestic violence were we living together?
IRE: Yes.
My point is, do you have this active domestic violence incident, you find out your pregnant, are you living together? Are you trying to repair the
relationship?
LOEWE: No, no, no, no, no. We have no contact from then until I found out I was pregnant.
IRE: And do you feel that Track Sarah Palin is suffering some ramifications of having served in the military? I mean, you know, just as
our layman`s perspective, do you think he is suffering from some posttraumatic stress disorder?
LOEWE: I think Track is suffering from a conglomerate of mental illness. I think there`s a lot of things mixed together, a lot of medical issues
that have never been addressed. And yes, I can see how maybe PTSD might be one of them. But it is definitely not the only one. There`s a lot of
mental instability and a lot of other things going on there, so.
IRE: There`s allegations that Track was drinking this night that he got -- he assaulted his father. Did he have a problem with alcohol or drugs?
LOEWE: He definitely drank more -- he doesn`t only had an alcohol problem, but I would also have to say that he had very erratic and dangerous
behavior when he was sober. As you know, you would do crazy things with and without alcohol. So, is alcohol the problem? I don`t think so. But
it definitely exacerbated the already existing problems.
IRE: Jordan, we great you appreciate you coming tonight to talk to us. You just keep up that counseling and take care of your family, and we wish
you the best of luck. Thank you.
LOEWE: Thank you very much.
IRE: Still here with me, thank God is Randy Zelin.
Randy. Track Palin seems to be in a world of trouble. I just -- I can`t get around it. Now, we find out there may have been 10 prior beatings.
And even though you are going to throw defense attorney at me, you know those prior instances of bad conduct can be used against Track Palin in a
court of law. How would you possibly defend this guy?
RANDY ZELIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That is one of the most common misconceptions. What is the role of the defense attorney? The role of a
defense attorney, it all depends on what is in in the best interest of the client. Todd Palin, I`m going to go out on a limb. Todd Palin is not
going to go to jail.
IRE: OK. So let me just be clear. We have not confirmed, CNN/HLN, we have not confirmed that these ten prior incidents. So hypothetically. But
just generally, talk about how you would defend --?
[19:15:07] ZELIN: And by the way, we need not get into a legal conversation about whether or not, and just for the audiences edification,
we don`t ever want to ever convict someone based upon a propensity. Meaning that if I`m accused of stealing this pen, if I stole one a year
ago, then I must have stolen this one, no. We only focus on what`s going on now?
IRE: Is PTSD a possible defense?
ZELIN: Absolutely. But this case is not going to trial. So we need not talk about legal defenses. Because if this is administration is serious
about taking care of our veterans, if we as a country are serious about taking care of our veterans, and we are so happy that they don`t come home
in a box, but they come home in a different box, enough with the fly-bys at the football game. Let`s take care of them. The Palins have an
opportunity to use this to say, we need to do something.
IRE: Randy, I thank you for your passion, especially during this holiday season.
An 8-year-old boy in Texas, sees doctors and specialists more than 300 times in his very short life. His mom even tries to get him on the lung
transplant waiting list, only doctors say he is not sick at all. And now his mom is facing charges, details straight ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:20:42] IRE: Eight years old, 13 surgeries and 323 trips to the hospital. That`s what police in child protective services are reportedly
saying, little Christopher Crawford went through. But not because he had a legitimate health issue, no. They say his mom lied to doctors after making
it all up. And so does Christopher`s dad.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RYAN CRAWFORD, FATHER: She claimed that he had issues drinking milk? I never saw those issues. Crying, saying that Christopher is never going to
walk and that we need to, you know, that I need to learn how to take care of a disabled child.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IRE: This is just heart breaking. Kaylene (INAUDIBLE), she was charged with injury to a child causing serious bodily injury after officials say
she exaggerated her 8-year-old`s injuries which put Christopher on a feeding tube. Also saying she shaved his head and then put him in a make a
wish foundation t-shirt, and claimed he had cancer. Staff at the local children`s hospital say they called CPS when they suspected she was trying
to give her son seizures. And now, all of her kids, all of them have been taken from her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CRAWFORD: No one wanted to believe me until it was almost too late. He almost died three different times due to infections from the 13 different
surgeries. So he has a long road ahead of him. And I hate that he had to go through that. I hate it. I hate it so much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IRE: Is there anything worse than watching a dad cry? I don`t think so.
Crime and justice producer Bernice Man joins me now. Also joining is Doctor Michael Lewis. He is the medical director of pediatrics in patient
in ICU for the University of Kansas hospital. He has not treated Christopher`s case personally. And Randy Zelin is also back.
So Bernice, I would like to start off with you, please. Can you just give us the background? Because this case, it actually started. You know, the
time period, the crime covers is from when Christopher was only 11 days old, up to the point where he`s now eight years old. This is a tremendous
timespan for any crime, right? Any crime that would occur over an eight- year period is a long period. And we are talking about this little guy suffering through needless surgeries, right? Thirteen major surgeries.
Suffering through doctor`s visits and procedures being poked and prodded. This little boy. So explain the timeline so people can really understand
the danger this boy was in.
BERNICE MAN, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE PRODUCER (on the phone): That`s right, Seema. So Christopher was born premature in 2009. And police alleged that
11 days later, the abuse began. Police say that the suspect and her mother were observed pouring out milk after Christopher didn`t finish it, and then
they lied to medical professionals saying he had taken the entire bottle. Then police later alleged that he had at least three life threatening blood
infections in central lines. And that he was later admitted in to ICU. There was also an after David for the arrest warrant that also says that
the mother had signed a DNR order for Christopher when he was five years old. He was also --.
IRE: And Bernice, sorry. Before you go on, just explain is a DNR is a do not resuscitate.
MAN: Correct.
IRE: So what was the significance of that at that time when he was five?
MAN: Police say that Christopher was receiving hospice care for pain management and that was when the mother signed the Do Not Resuscitate for
Christopher when he was five.
IRE: Also, I want to bring out another fact that you had mentioned earlier to me, and that is the grandmother. So Christopher`s grandmother was also
involved in this milk issue when he was just a baby?
MAN: Correct. And they say that she was there with the mother, and they were upstairs pouring the milk out. Though she has not been charged in
anything related to Christopher, she was observed pouring the milk out with the mother.
[19:25:13] IRE: Do we know anything about the mom`s background? Has she had a history of mental illness? I believe she has no criminal record. I
know that came out during this bail hearing. But is there anything else we know about the mom?
MAN: Correct. So the CPS report actually says she does not have a criminal history, but she actually has a history with CPS from 2015, where
the CPS alleges that Christopher had lost weight when in the care with the mother. And that when Christopher was brought into the hospital, he
retained his weight. So there was concerns about his long term health and development and that could be potentially life threatening.
IRE: Bernice, how many other kids does this mom have? And have they had any similar circumstances, with these medical procedures that Christopher
has?
MAN: Well, CPS actually alleged that the physical abuse is also related to his younger brother - Christopher`s younger brother and older sister.
IRE: OK, so there`s three kids total?
MAN: Correct.
IRE: OK. And just give us the status of the mom. Has she been released? Is she in on bail? Is she going through a mental competency evaluation?
MAN: All we know right now is that on Monday, a Dallas county judge reportedly reduced her bail down to $25,000 and that she would have to stay
in Dallas County, and refrain from contact with her children if she posts bond. And we currently believe that she is still behind bars.
IRE: OK. So now, there`s also been reportedly a psychiatric condition attached to this mom, that`s called Munchausen disease. We have a package,
I want to show the viewers this video package that gives you a little background on what Munchausen is.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This isn`t the first time that a mother has been suspected of harming her own child. Over the last few years, several women
have allegedly suffered from Munchausen by proxy.
Alexis Felton, she was caught on camera choking her 11-month-old baby six times while it sat in her a crib in a hospital. Family suggests she had
Munchausen by proxy.
Kathy Bush, mom accused of intentionally making the child sick, forcing her to undergo 40 needless surgeries.
Blanca Montano, accused of poisoning daughter for attention, infecting her over and over again with fecal and other bacteria, as the child lay in the
hospital.
Gigi Jordan, accused of overdosing autistic 8-year-old son with pills. Prosecutors say she was diagnosed with Munchausen by proxy for medical
abuse of boy.
Tonya Thomas, allegedly subjected her young daughter to multiple unnecessary medical procedures, including a spinal tap, blood screenings
and ultrasounds.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
IRE: You know, I remember, I was up close and personal watching that Gigi Jordan trial. It was unbelievable. But I need a little more background on
Munchausen. So it`s time to bring in Dr. Michael Lewis.
Doctor, can you just explain to us, what is Munchausen? And specifically, with this mom, she has apparently has Munchausen by proxy. So what is it?
DR. MICHAEL LEWIS, MEDICAL DIRECTOR, PEDIATRIC ICU, UNIVERSITY OF KANSAS: Thanks for having us on tonight.
Munchausen is a really complicated condition. And the fact that people perceive that their child needs to have more care done. And it is a wide
variety of how much care they can request their child to have done. It often times starts off with one condition and then it just leads and kind
of spirals out of control because one provider will tell them, you know, we have done this. And we feel that your child is now safe and things are
fine. And often times the parenting goes to another person and into another doctor and another doctor and things just start to escalate. And
often times people are like, well, they have been to a lot of doctors. No one has found an answer. So now, we need to do more labs, do we need to do
more -rays, more MRI`s. And then suddenly you have these kids who have had this very expensive medical workup when in reality, everybody at the end
keeps saying, the child is fine. The child is fine. And then, all those things come with time, they come with money, they come with emotional
distress to the child.
IRE: And in this case, the child gets sicker and sicker, right, doc?
LEWIS: Yes. That`s what it sounds like. Because some of these things come with risk. Whether you do a procedure, whether it`s doing a spinal
tap, there`s risk with that. If you do a central line, well, central lines have a risk to be infected or to generate a blood clot. If you do a
surgery, not only are you going to cause possibly complications from that surgery, but just general pain from the surgery. So now, you have possibly
taken a child who really had no purpose whatsoever to have these things done.
[19:30:08] IRE: Well, OK. Just to be clear, Munchausen is a psychological disorder, right? And it`s very rare and actually, from what I read, it`s
more prevalent in men than women. And it also usually hits as a young adult. But the question is, where is this coming from? Could the mom have
had a history of physical abuse or sexual abuse or sexual abuse or neglect or even hospitalizations that perhaps gave her this disease now later in
life?
LEWIS: Well, that`s definitely a possibility because you definitely know that you have a very -- usually you have a healthy child and a mentally ill
parent. And so something has had to cause that fact in the child from the parent. So, whatever it was that this mom has in her history,
unfortunately, it sounds like it possibly put them at risk for the child to --
(CROSSTALK)
IYER: Grave risk.
LEWIS: Yes.
IYER: Yes. Thank you, Doctor. Randy, I just want to end with you pointing out, this woman when she was pregnant, she was claiming she was
ill when the kid was in one hospital in Dallas, she wasn`t giving the record to the other hospital in Houston. If you had to defend her, it
sounds like you would have a very strong mental health illness defense.
RANDY ZELIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`ll do you one better.
IYER: Give me one better, Randy. Give it to me.
ZELIN: Let`s take a quick step back. First of all, what we`re talking about here is bail, and bail is solely -- are you going to come back to
court? So, let`s put that in -- over there. But as far as defending this woman, putting aside the mental --
IYER: Yes.
ZELIN: Imagine putting each doctor, you ask two questions, you examined this child, didn`t you? Yes, I did. You approved the procedure, didn`t
you? No further questions. One doctor after the next after the next and as Dr. Lewis just said, perception. If she perceived that there was
something wrong with her child, good-bye criminal intent. It doesn`t mean she shouldn`t lose her kid.
(CROSSTALK)
IYER: Also -- well, come on. She needs a lot of help, I would not give those kids back to her at all. But listen, don`t you also think there`s a
medical malpractice issue with these doctors?
ZELIN: You have -- if I were the doctors, how about the family court judge who looked at the father and said, you`re nuts, you`re not getting your
kid. How about CPS who said, no, these allegations are unfounded. There`s a whole lot of people that better check their insurance policies.
IYER: I know, I know. Randy, don`t go anywhere. Don`t leave me right now. A D.C. fender-bender took a bizarre twist that ended up with a naked
man, uh-oh, jumping on a passing truck and snarling traffic near Dulles Airport. Oh, that`s near where my mom lives, she probably saw him. Police
say, Jose Gonzalez Flores, he`s hard to forget, look at this guy, hit two different cars and assaulted one of the drivers before fleeing to his
truck, stripping off his clothes and then doing this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: OK. I`m seriously not joking. That`s the way we go to the airport. I know this area, and I bet my mom knows him. She may even be friends with
him, knowing her. Police say Flores broke the truck`s window and once the truck stopped, he jumped off, he ran away. He was later found in a
drainage ditch at Dulles Airport. He`s facing a laundry list of charges, including assault and battery and indecent exposure. I`m definitely not
flying home for Christmas, mom, I`m going to take the bus.
And a Colorado mom vanishes under suspicious circumstances. And now there is a desperate search to find here. More next after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:37:44] IYER: It`s been two weeks since anyone seen 41-year old Kimberlee Graves. A Colorado mom of two who -- from her home along with
her car, police didn`t get an answer when her friend asked for a welfare check. So, six days after she banishes, they say the friend then went into
Kimberlee`s h use calling them a second time to report the home had been ransacked. Officers found Kimberlee`s car last week abandoned in a parking
garage just a mile from her home. But tonight, the cops are still looking for Kimberlee. We are still looking for Kimberlee. This is a woman who is
known to be way too trusting.
DANIEL CORDOVA, VICTIM`S FRIEND: Too friendly. Then (INAUDIBLE) in her house all the time. And then she had a nice 2015 Rav4, you know, and she
has just let people drive it like nothing, you know. So -- and then next thing I know the side of it was like sideswiped, the window was broken out,
I see somebody caved bad words into her door. I think she just started hanging around that kind of people (INAUDIBLE) about that, you know, but
trusting people too much and now look.
IYER: Randy Corporon joins me now. He is a host on 710 KNUS in Denver, also back CNN Law Enforcement Analyst, Detective Harry Houck, and defense
attorney Randy Zelin still sitting here with me. OK. So, Coporon, break this timeline down for me. This woman goes missing two weeks ago and I`m
only hearing about it today. Explain why she was last seen December 4th and we`re only finding it out about now.
RANDY CORPORON, HOST, 710 KNUS: Yes. A little surprising when the police first went to the home on December the 8th, this was four days after she
was last seen. They knocked on the door, the car was gone, and so they just noted that she was missing but didn`t take any additional action. Two
days after that on December 10th, a friend went in and actually went into the house and saw that the house had been ransacked, contacted the police
again. Got them very seriously looking for this person obviously because then they found her car on December 13th in a parking garage. And what`s
odd is, we haven`t heard from the police until just yesterday on December 18th, they finally put out a bulletin or a notice asking for information
about this missing mom.
[19:40:12] IYER: Well, listen, we both know, the longer she`s missing, the harder it is to find her. So why are we hearing about it just no -- just
now? Excuse me. Corporan, any ideas on that? What have --
(CROSSTALK)
CORPORON: Really no ideas. Ashleigh, there`s been no other information coming from the police department. And why those five days from the time
her car turned up to now have elapsed before they reached out to the community, there`s just not a bit of insight to that as we sit here
tonight.
IYER: OK. So, let me ask you this, how many kids does she have? Do you know their ages and did they live in the home with her?
CORPORON: The pictures that I saw of her with children had the children blocked. So, I -- and I don`t know the ages, they do not live with her,
however. The children have been living with relatives apparently for some time.
IYER: OK. So, now, the friend, how does the friend get into the home? Did the friend have keys to the home, did the friend break in? Do we know
what kind of friendship this is? I don`t know about you, but I don`t give out keys to everyone in the world.
CORPORON: Well, it`s a good question, especially in light of the clip you played from the neighbor who talked about how she was having people in and
out of the house all the time.
IYER: Right.
CORPORON: Her car was going out, coming back damaged, et cetera, but there`s been no statement from that friend as to how she got in that I`ve
been able to find.
IYER: Harry Houck, let me ask you this, now as a law enforcement person, right? You`d be looking at the bank account, credit card, give me the
laundry list of what you`re going to be looking for.
HARRY HOUCK, RETIRED DETECTIVE, NYPD: Basically what you just said, you know, first of all, you`re going to be -- this is all going on at the same
exact time, also. You have several detectives doing this. You`re looking it, so did she -- did she make any phone calls? All right? Any ATM
withdrawals? Any social media from the time when she was reported missing or from the last time she was seen? That`s very important. What I think
was wrong here is the fact that, you know, once the police saw that the house was ransacked, they should have -- they should have came out to the
public to try and look for this woman.
IYER: Right. OK. Let`s --
CORPORON: That was --
IYER: Sorry. Let`s just play because I want you to both comment on this. The Fort Collins Police Department just recently made a statement about the
car. So let`s hear that, and watch that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATE KIMBLE, PUBLIC RELATIONS MANAGER, FORT COLLINS POLICE: On December 13th, officers located Miss Graves` vehicle in a parking garage at College
Avenue and Mulberry Street. Detectives later determine that the vehicle had been in use by another person for several days however at this time, it
is not believed that that person is associated with Miss Graves` disappearance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: So -- OK, let me start off with you, Corporon, what do you make about the fact that this car may have been used, any information about any
forensic evidence that has been collected from the car that could connect someone to the crime?
CORPORON: Well, frankly, the statement released by the police yesterday asking for help from the community to try and locate this missing mom is
the first information that I`ve heard from the police department, they`ve been silent up until yesterday.
IYER: Harry Houck, what would you look for in the apartment? It`s been ransacked, tell me about -- talk to me through the apartment, the forensics
that you would be looking for to try to find this woman, this mom.
HOUCK: Yes. Well, you know, first thing I -- is there any indication of blood or that she had some type of injury or crime which committed inside
that -- inside that apartment. That`s very important. You know, like I said, the fact that this place was ransacked, is something missing? And
that four days from the time the police came and the neighbor went into the house, did somebody come back to the home and do that? When you`re -- when
you`re a police officer, when you do these welfare checks, you don`t just ring the doorbell, you don`t just ring the doorbell and check for the
garage for a car, you look in the windows, I did that all the time. You look in the windows, see if there`s anything. You got to check all the
doors. And if there`s -- you know, if that house was ransacked and if the windows were either opened or the shades weren`t drawn or something like
that, you would be able to see that that house was ransacked and then police would have been able to enter right away. So, if the --
IYER: So you`re looking also for forced entry but you`re also looking for her personal items, right? Like did you take any --
(CROSSTALK)
HOUCK: Oh sure. Her purse, where is her purse? Did you take her purse, take her clothes.
IYER: Cell phone.
HOUCK: You know, that`s very important. Right. Cell phone, they`re checking those records right away to see if any cause been made on that.
(CROSSTALK)
IYER: We`d also be looking for suspicious activity in the apartment. Is there any indication of other crimes going on? Just saying, it`s a
possibility? Gentlemen, thank you so much. Thank you very much.
[19:45:00] A fight in a mall spirals out of control with one woman getting her kicks in, while the toddler she was pushing looks on. More crime and
justice after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
IYER: In an ideal world, we all agree that holiday shopping should be peaceful, maybe even fun. But in Fort Meyers, Florida, a massive brawl,
it`s a brawl, people, it just broke out at the shopping mall. A baby in a stroller was pushed into the middle of this awful mayhem outside of
Victoria Secret Store. I don`t know if that has any meaning to the story though. The video though, this is just unbelievable.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:50:13] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: I can`t with this. I don`t know what`s happening. This would be funny if it wasn`t for a baby. But exactly what sparked the brawl, it
remains under investigation by police and the State Department of Children and Families. It may have been a case of mistaken identity related to
recent double murder in the area. Police say they are looking to press charges against six people involved in the fight. The mall said it`s
working closely with the police. Defense attorney Randy Zelin, he is back and he has something to say about shopping in the mall leading to brawls.
ZELIN: Well, look, you can make jokes and talk about this child`s future as a stunt driver or a Nascar race car driver.
IYER: I wasn`t going to make those jokes.
ZELIN: However, there are two things going on.
IYER: Yes.
ZELIN: First of all, you`ve got the potential for a crime which is anytime you act in a manner which could injure the physical welfare or the
emotional or mental welfare of a child. That`s a crime. But what would this woman`s be -- woman`s defense be? Very simple. Hey, I`m going
through the mall, a brawl breaks out, I`m defending myself and defending my kid. That`s why I threw a superkick that would be worthy of MMA. And
that`s that all I was doing. And a good luck -- good look with the jury saying, you know what, I can`t say that that wasn`t the case assuming she
didn`t open her mouth and say, yes, I got into it because it was pay-back time.
IYER: OK. Well, listen, let`s just back up a minute because we don`t even know why the fight started, right? We don`t know why the fight started.
ZELIN: Which should be irrelevant.
IYER: It`s irrelevant?
ZELIN: It should be, if I`m defending the case, I don`t want motive coming in here.
IYER: OK. I am -- OK. So you can play defense attorney and I am saying as an investigator, which I`m not but I`m going to pretend, as an
investigator, I want to know why did this fight occur and who are the players involved and what is their relationship to each other. Right?
ZELIN: And that`s why everybody should keep their mouths shut in speaking to law enforcement.
IYER: Oh my god. Can we like high five with that? Why do people in this country watch "LAW AND ORDER", right? Everybody watches "LAW AND ORDER".
Nothing good ever comes from talking to cops.
ZELIN: You can only talk yourself into trouble.
IYER: Thank you. Another good one.
(CROSSTALK)
IYER: But I`m saying, it`s just very important that people understand, this is our constitutional right to not make statements that are going to
hurt us. And it`s always best you speak to lawyer first. So, in this case, let`s say they`re investigating all six people in this video. Would you
recommend that everybody speak to a lawyer first and/or have a lawyer accompany them to speak to the police?
ZELIN: Well, absolutely. Because imagine if you could split the screen. One side of the screen, the left side, everybody goes in and starts yapping
away about what was going on there. As opposed to the right side of the screen, nobody says anything. If you are watching that video, on the one
hand, knowing what happened to set the scene as supposed to not knowing anything, how could you possibly convict this woman for doing anything
other than defending herself and her child?
IYER: Now -- let`s explain to the viewers another important aspect to this type of case. And that is when you have people fighting with each other,
then this could be a potential cross-complaint. So just explain the cross- complaint about this.
ZELIN: Cross-complaint is tricky, they are exactly what they sound like which is OK, you and I get into a fight. You go to police first, you`re
lucky enough to be smart enough to go first. You`re the victim, I`m the defendant. But I now go in with my lawyer and say, time out, she started
the fight. I was defending myself. You, if you`re charging me, you should charge her. So, now, I`m a victim and you`re a defendant. Problem, how
does anybody defend the case and how did the prosecutors prosecute the case that have no witnesses?
IYER: You and I both know the reality. Cross-complaints, they both get dismissed, everybody goes home and they get into another mall brawl. Thank
you, Randy Zelin. Defense attorney extraordinaire. OK. The video, it`s heartbreaking to watch, folks. An elderly woman evicted from her home,
dragged out, booked and charged by the police. But now she will not, she will not be facing any charges. And we`re going to tell you why after the
break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:59:16] IYER: We have an update on a story I told you about last night, Juanita Fernandez, the 93-year-old woman who was arrested last week after
she was evicted from her assisted living facility is no longer facing trespassing charges. Thankfully. The state attorney dismissed the case
given the unique nature of her situation and the lack of any criminal history. Fernandez reportedly had not paid her rent for several months
which led to her eviction. She is currently living in an extended stay hotel but she will not be allowed to return to the facility because of the
eviction notice against her. Thank you so much for watching, everyone. We`ll see you back here tomorrow night, 6:00 p.m. Eastern for CRIME AND
JUSTICE. "FORENSIC FILES" starts right now.
