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Tax Bill House Passage; Tax Bill To President; Interview with Bernie Sanders; American Confidence in Tax Bill; Tax Bill Adds to Deficit; Government Spending Bill. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired December 20, 2017 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JOHN KING, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks to my guests for helping us deal with all the breaking news coverage there. Our special coverage continues in just a moment with Wolf Blitzer after a quick break. Oh, right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer. It's 1:00 p.m. here in Washington. Wherever you're watching from around the world, thanks very much for joining us.

We're following breaking news. Look at this. Live pictures coming in from the House of Representatives chamber where members, just moments ago, voted to pass the massive Republican tax bill. It's a $1.5 trillion bill of tax cuts and reform and it marks the first major legislative victory for President Trump.

Later this afternoon, the president will welcome Republican leaders over to the White House to celebrate the victory.

Let's bring in from the White House our Senior White House Correspondent Jim Acosta, also from Capitol Hill, our Congressional Correspondent Phil Mattingly.

Jim, first to you. What's the reaction? So far, you're hearing the president clearly was very, very thrilled by this development.

JIM ACOSTA CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right. The president was touting this victory earlier this morning over here at the White House meeting with his cabinet.

This is now a signature legislative achievement for President Trump, no question about it.

But instead of selling this policy before passing it, they passed it and now they're going to have to sell it. And that's what you heard from the House speaker earlier this morning on the morning talk shows.

And that's where what you heard it from the president earlier this morning with his cabinet.

Here's what he had to say about this tax cut package being passed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's the passage of the massive tax cuts and reform. It's -- a lot of reform in there but the tax cuts supersede. And I said, very specifically, use the word, tax cuts.

You know, for 34 years, they've been trying to do this, and they haven't and they used the word, reform. Well, there is reform but I said we're going to be talking about tax cuts.

This bill means more take-home pay. It will be an incredible Christmas gift for hard-working Americans. I said I wanted to have it done before Christmas. We got it done.

I want to thank all of the leaders. I want to thank Mitch McConnell. I want to thank Paul Ryan. And so many other people and we'll go through the official ceremony in a little while when they come over to the White House.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Now, the president is planning to have some of those Republican leaders over here at the White House later on this afternoon, 3:00. We understand the event will be on the south portico of the White House, Wolf, although some of those details are still being worked out.

The question, I think, this afternoon is whether the president just takes a victory lap and sings the praises of this piece of legislation or is he going to take questions from reporters?

We're still expecting, at some point, for the president to hold one of those year-end news conferences, as presidents often do before they head to the holidays.

And, of course, Wolf, this White House and the Republicans up on Capitol Hill, they're about to test the law of unintended consequences. Because there were hardly any hearings on this. Because there wasn't much discussion in the public about this tax cut bill before it was brought to passage and on its way to the president's desk.

They are going to have to find out whether or not they can turn the numbers around for this piece of legislation. Because, as you know, the polls have shown, including here at CNN, that it is deeply unpopular, at this point -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Deeply unpopular but it did pass the House of Representatives just moments ago, 224-201.

Let's go to Phil Mattingly. He's up on Capitol Hill. So, Walk us through the final vote. What happens next, Phil?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, this wasn't an expected vote. Obviously, this came up because Senate Republicans ended up having to strip out a couple pieces of their bill last night. It forced the House to vote again. But I was speaking to one House Republican earlier who said, look, I had no problem voting for tax cuts the first time around. The second time is even better. So, there was no drama here.

What we knew was going to happen is the House was going to vote to pass and clear this bill. Then the bill will be enrolled and it will be sent over to the White House. And that's going to be a process. It takes a couple days. We don't know exactly when the president is going to sign.

But as you -- as Jim noted, buses are currently waiting outside for Republicans to get inside and head to the White House. They are ready to celebrate their first major legislative achievement of the year and they're going to be doing that in just a couple of hours -- Wolf.

BLITZER: They certainly will be. Over at the White House, we'll, of course, have live coverage of that.

Phil Mattingly, Jim Acosta, guys, stand by. We'll get back to you.

But I want to stay on Capitol Hill right now. Get some reaction to all these dramatic developments.

Joining us now, the Vermont independent senator, Bernie Sanders. Senator, thanks so much for joining us.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I), VERMONT: My pleasure.

BLITZER: I want to get your reaction. The president is about to hold a victory celebration over at the White House with the Republican leadership. This is a huge win for him, right?

SANDERS: Well, it is a victory for billionaires like Donald Trump. It's a victory for wealthy campaign contributors like the Koch Brothers.

But this is a disaster for the American people. According to the tax policy center, at the end of 10 years, Wolf, 83 percent of the tax benefits go to the top one percent. 60 percent of the benefits go to the top one-tenth of one percent.

This whole policy is based on the fraudulent theory of trickle-down economics and that is if you give huge tax breaks to large corporations and the wealthy. Somehow, the middle-class and working families benefit.

The problem is, that theory has never worked. It didn't work under Reagan. It didn't work under George W. Bush. It certainly didn't work recently in the state of Kansas. This is a payback for wealthy campaign contributors.

And I think the Republicans will rue the day. They may be celebrating today, but I have the feeling that next November they will not be celebrating quite as much.

BLITZER: Is there anything, Senator, in the bill you support? SANDERS: Sure, there are proposals that help the middle class, but

they expire at the end of eight years. What Republican priorities were about is giving permanent, permanent tax breaks to large corporations. Some of them will get 10s of billions of dollars in tax breaks.

But the benefits for the middle class were made temporary. Furthermore, and this is really important, listen to what speaker of the House, Paul Ryan, is saying literally today, this morning.

This is what he is saying. He is saying that, in so many words, this bill drives up the deficit by $1.5 trillion. Remember, the Republicans used to hate large deficit. This drives up the deficit by $1.5 trillion.

How are they going to offset that? Listen to what Ryan says today. What he is saying is they're going to come back very shortly with entitlement reform.

Please, America, understand what he means by entitlement reform. Those are cuts to Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid.

Remember, during the campaign, candidate Donald Trump said, oh, if I'm elected president, there'll be no cuts to Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. That is exactly what Ryan has in mind.

And I challenge the president. maybe for once in his life, keep the promises that you made. Tell Ryan and Mitch McConnell that you will veto any legislation that cuts Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid.

It is obscene to give tax breaks to billionaires and then cut these programs that are life and death for the middle-class of this country.

BLITZER: And the president, as a candidate, did repeatedly say, no cuts to these entitlement programs, Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. He often said that.

We know that the speaker has a very different perspective on those entitlement programs. A lot of conservative Republicans do as well.

The speaker was also on T.V. this morning, and he also said this. Listen to Paul Ryan, Senator.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RYAN: The tax rate, before this bill passes, is 35 percent. That's the highest in the industrialized world. The rest of our competitors tax their companies at about 22.5 percent. Canada is 15 percent. Ireland is 12.5 percent. England is 17 percent. China is no higher than 25 percent.

So, when we tax American businesses at much, much higher tax rates than our foreign competitors are taxing theirs, we're losing and they're gaining.

And what's more important, American businesses are moving overseas. They're not even American companies anymore. This is a trend that has to be reversed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right. So, you heard the speaker. The corporate tax rate is going to go from 35 percent down to 21 percent. And that will give these corporations a lot more potential to go out there and create jobs, get higher wages for the working class, for all the union workers out there and others as well.

That's something you support, right?

SANDERS: In theory, I do. Unfortunately, what Ryan said is grossly misleading.

What he said is the tax rate is 35 percent. Wolf, that is the nominal tax rate. The vast majority of corporations do not pay 35 percent. They keep saying this over and over again.

The fact is that the real, effective tax rate because of all the loopholes that now exist is somewhere around 16 percent to 18 percent. Not 35 percent.

In fact, one out of five major American corporations making huge profits may zero in federal taxes in recent years.

So, what Ryan is saying is simply not true. Nominal rate is 35 percent. The effective, real rate is significantly lower than that.

Now, the second point is, what these guys are going to do is lower taxes, essentially, for corporations that invest abroad. Yes, we want to bring jobs back to America, what they are doing is exactly the opposite.

They are making it easier for corporations to go abroad and pay lower taxes than staying in the United States of America.

So, I strongly disagree with him on that principle. In order to get jobs, the companies to reinvest in America, among other things, what we have got to do is change disastrous trade policies which make it easier for them to go to Mexico and China and hire low-wage workers.

[13:10:00] This tax policy won't help that process, it will likely hurt it.

BLITZER: In his cabinet meeting, just a little while ago, the president spoke about other consequences of this legislation, now passed by the Senate, now passed by the House. He's about to sign it into law.

Listen to what he said about this. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When the individual mandate is being repealed, that means Obamacare is being repealed because they get their money from the individual mandate. So, the individual mandate is being repealed.

So, in this bill, not only do we have massive tax cuts and tax reform, we have, essentially, repealed Obamacare.

So, is the president right, Senator?

SANDERS: No, of course he is not right.

BLITZER: That with the repeal of the individual mandate that was included in this tax legislation, is Obamacare, as we know it, for all practical purposes, dead?

SANDERS: No, of course it is not. But Obamacare -- it's -- forget Obamacare. Forget the American people.

Thirteen million Americans will lose their health insurance as a result of the repeal of the individual mandate. Now, the people get really excited.

Isn't that a great thing, Wolf? My god, 13 million more Americans, on top of the 28 million who have no health insurance, are going to lose their health insurance. Let's really celebrate that.

I mean, what kind of insanity is that? We are the only major country on earth not to guarantee health care to all people. We pay twice as much per capita for health care as any other nation. And Trump is celebrating the fact that 13 more million Americans will not have any health insurance?

And, by the way, another disastrous aspect of this bill is that when younger people and healthier people are no longer in the universal pool, what all of the experts say is that health care premiums are going to go up significantly.

So, not only are 83 percent of the benefits, tax benefits, going to the top one percent at the end of 10 years, health care premiums are going up. That is one of the reasons why AARP, the largest senior group in America, has opposed this legislation.

BLITZER: Senator, on a very related issue now. The deadline, as you know, to pass a spending bill is Friday or else the government will have to shut down. It looks like it will be another short-term continuing resolution, as it's called.

December seventh, was the last C.R., Continuing Resolution, that avoided a government shutdown. You were one of 14 votes against that one. Will you vote against this continuing resolution as well?

SANDERS: I sure will. Look, --

BLITZER: Why?

SANDERS: How many hours do you have?

Here's why. We have a situation today where 800,000 young people, dreamers, people who were raised in the United States, who are now in school, who are now working, who are now in the United States military, are on the verge of losing their legal status and will be subjected to deportation.

Just -- a poll came out, I believe, yesterday, I believe, Quinnipiac poll. 77 percent of the American people, Democrats, Republicans, independents, understand that the right thing to do is to maintain the legal status of these young people and, in fact, move them toward citizenship. That's what 77 percent of the American people want.

Republicans have been so busy trying to give huge tax breaks to billionaires and the wealthy. They haven't paid one iota of attention to this looming crisis.

Second of all, we have the CHIP program. This is the health insurance program for children, for children. It has not been reauthorized in almost three months. There are states now running out of money. Children in this country. Middle-class, working class kids are going to lose their health insurance.

Furthermore, you've got the community health center program, something that I've been very actively involved in expanding. 27 million low- income working-class families get their health care through community health centers. That has not been refunded this fiscal year.

BLITZER: All right, Senator, let me interrupt. Let me interrupt because we're out of time.

So, basically, you're going to vote against it unless those let's say three issues and other issues are included, which, apparently, they won't be included but there probably will be more than enough senators to vote in favor without that and deal with those other issues in January or down the road. The DACA program, the dreamers and the CHIP program.

SANDERS: Well, they have got to be dealt with. Look, maybe -- I know this is a radical idea. But maybe the Republican leadership might want to worry about the needs of the working class and middle class of this country, not just their billionaire campaign contributors.

So, I will vote no, unless those issues are dealt with.

BLITZER: Senator Sanders, thanks so much for joining us.

SANDERS: Thank you very much, Wolf.

BLITZER: Up next, Republican Senator Mike Rounds has got a very different perspective on this. He's got a lot to say about taxes, the looming potential government shutdown, deadline.

He's standing by there. You see him. He's going to join us live.

[13:15:07] And why New Jersey Governor Chris Christie says Jared Kushner deserves scrutiny over his meeting with the Russians during the presidential campaign.

Stick around. Lots of news. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: You're looking at live pictures from Capitol Hill. Right now Republican lawmakers are preparing to head over to the White House shortly. In less than two hours, the president and the Republicans will celebrate the passing of a $1.5 trillion tax cut. We'll have live coverage of all that coming up.

Joining us now, Republican Senator Mike Rounds of South Dakota.

Senator, thanks so much for joining us.

SEN. MIKE ROUNDS (R), SOUTH DAKOTA: Thank you, Wolf. Appreciate the opportunity.

BLITZER: Your -- we want to get your perspective. I know it's very different than the perspective we just heard from Senator Bernie Sanders.

[13:20:07] In an interview with "Fortune" magazine earlier this month about the tax bill, you said this, and I'll quote you, honestly, the big issue is just the confidence of the American people. The American public wants us to get something done.

But in our latest CNN poll, only 33 percent favor this tax bill, 55 percent, a majority, oppose it. How are you going to change those numbers?

ROUNDS: Getting accurate information out to them and actually showing them cold hard cash come February. And I think the combination of good information and a growing economy and cash in their pockets will do the job. And by that I mean I think for a lot of the families that are out there, they really wanted to see whether or not they could feel in the their pocketbook. Beginning in February, they will. And along the line, they're going to see an economy which is going to continue to grow. They're going to see job opportunities come. And we believe that they're also going to see an improvement in their own wages. That takes a little bit longer to happen, but we're convinced that it will.

BLITZER: At the same time -- and I know you're a deficit hawk -- this tax plan comes with a price tag adding about 1.5 -- maybe $1 trillion or $1.5 trillion to the deficit over the next decade. Part of the plan to help offset future cuts potentially could be a future deficits -- to offset future deficits could be cuts to entitlement programs down the road which eat up a big chunk of the federal budget every year, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid. But as Bernie Sanders just pointed out, the president, as a candidate, promised no such cuts. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Save Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security without cuts. Have to do it. Get rid of the fraud. Get rid of the waste and abuse, but save it. People have been paying in for years and now many of these candidates want to cut it.

I'm not going to cut Social Security, like every other Republican, and I'm not going to cut Medicare or Medicaid.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Are you with the president?

ROUNDS: I want to see the safety net strengthened. I don't want to walk back into anybody that's got Medicare, Medicaid or Social Security today to say, no, you no longer qualify. That's not the intent. But those three programs, along with interest on the debt, currently make up 78 percent of the entire federal budget.

We don't even vote on those. They're not even a part of the discussions when we talk about the appropriations process. We only vote on 28 percent of the budget right now. We can't balance the budget unless we do two things, raise more revenue, which is what this tax plan is designed to do, and, second of all, we have to manage those programs, not by hurting people, but by making them more efficient. And I'm convinced that we can do that.

I'll give you one example and I think you'll find other people will agree with you, Republicans and Democrats both. Dual eligibles, individuals who are eligible for both -- for both Medicare and Medicaid, that's individuals that are over the age of 65 and live in a nursing home, we need to help them manage their own health care needs and in doing so the states recognize it and yet we have two different programs that don't talk to one another. We can save billions of dollars and that will improve their quality of life and it will also make it long-term a more sustainable program. Just as an example.

BLITZER: But you also know, not just Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid eat up a huge chunk of the federal budget and interest paying the federal debt another huge chunk, but the defense spending also a big chunk. Are you ready to start cutting defense spending?

ROUNDS: Actually, we're going to increase defense spending because it is the one thing that actually has taken the brunt of all of the cuts that have been made so far.

Let me just share with you what we ought to be doing right now. As we grow the economy, we have to be able to manage each of the programs. It doesn't mean that we can't become as efficient as possible with regard to our defense budget.

But I'll just give you one example. When you talk about the aircraft that are on board our carriers, the FA-18 Hornets, 60 percent of them right now are not operational. You can't go to war with only 40 percent of your aircraft on aircraft carriers that are operational today. We've got three nuclear attack submarines that are setting not a depot but at dock. The Boise has been there for more than three years. We don't have the resources or the capabilities to get them back into service, to actually do what they're (INAUDIBLE).

BLITZER: All right, so let me just be precise. Let me interrupt, politely, senator. Let me just be precise. No cuts, an increase in defense spending, but you do want to start cutting some of the entitlement spending, Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid -- ROUNDS: No.

BLITZER: To pay for the --

ROUNDS: No.

BLITZER: $1.5 trillion deficit increase?

ROUNDS: No.

BLITZER: Well, explain.

ROUNDS: No. No, let me explain.

First of all, we're not going to cut Medicare, Medicaid or Social Security. There's no discussion on that.

We would like to slow down the increases in them over an extended period of time by making them more efficient, not a cut.

[13:25:04] Second of all, with regard to defense, we have to do that. That is a primary responsibility of the federal government.

And finally, with regard to the plan that we've got right now for the tax plan, the design there is to actually make our economy grow. If we have an increase -- and you've heard these numbers before -- of 0.4 percent in our GDP, we pay for the entire $1.5 trillion cost of those tax rate reductions. If we do more than that, that's the money that we can actually use to offset the existing ongoing deficit that we've got today that, according to very, very reliable sources, will approach $1 trillion per year if we don't do anything else.

BLITZER: I just want to be precise --

ROUNDS: We want safety nets to survive.

BLITZER: What you want to do, though, is cut the rate of growth in Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, and that would be a significant cut, as they say, but that's Washington speak.

Let me get your thoughts.

ROUNDS: Yes.

BLITZER: I know you agree on one issue with Senator Bernie Sanders in that you're not going to vote to keep the government running when there's another temporary spending bill that comes up later this week. But you have different reasons why. Tell our viewers why.

ROUNDS: I voted against the last two week extension, the continuing resolution, I intend to vote against the next extension unless they make significant progress or at least progress in addressing the needs that we've got with the changes or the new programs that we have been working on in the 12 appropriation bills that made it to the floor -- or that made it out of committee but never made it to the floor of the Senate. So we've worked all year to get them done and simply to say last year's policies and programs and pricing is appropriate is wrong.

We knew last July that October 1st is the beginning of the fiscal year, and yet here we are, in December, kicking the can down the road again, making no progress. I just simply think that it's time we start meeting our deadlines.

This has been going on for 43 years. It's been 43 years we've had four times in which we've actually done our work, got it done on time, passed all 12 appropriation bills out of the House and the Senate. If it's not working, then let's change it and make it work so that people have some stability when it comes to funding that we're supposed to be doing, not just for the operation of government, but for those folks that expect the services that government is required to provide.

BLITZER: You and Senator Sanders were among the 14 senators who voted against the continuing resolution last time. And I hear you now, you're going to probably vote against it this time as well. And he has got very different reasons why he's going to vote against it. But you know the majority probably will continue to keep the government operating in the meantime. We'll see what happens next.

As usual, senator, thanks so much for joining us.

ROUNDS: Thank you. Appreciate the opportunity, Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, just ahead, the Russia investigation. One of President Trump's close campaign allies, the governor of New Jersey, Chris Christie, is now speaking out rather bluntly saying Jared Kushner, a senior Trump adviser and his son-in-law, deserves to be under scrutiny given his role in the transition. That and more when we come back.

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