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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield

James Franco`s Alleged Hidden Sexual Misconduct Revealed; Thomas Duvall to Start a New Life Outside. Aired 6-8p ET

Aired January 11, 2018 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

[18:00:00] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HOST, HLN: Good evening. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. It`s 6 o`clock Eastern. And these are your headlines.

Police officers in Arkansas are being threatened and investigated after release of a dash cam video that shows a 17-year-old shot dead during a

traffic stop. That stop turned very quickly from friendly to fatal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get your (muted) off.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: As all there is more to the story than just that red circle. We`re going to dive into the full video at 7 p.m. Stand by.

In the meantime, a 6-year-old survivor of the Sutherland Springs Church shooting is finally going home, released from the hospital today with a

fire truck escort. Ryland Ward was one of four children and five adults who were injured in that November attack. That attack killed 26 people, though.

A 15-year-old girl in Massachusetts was reportedly just caught selling drugs from her bedroom window. Police finding marijuana, cocaine, Fentanyl,

unlicensed guns and ammunition inside that home.

According to the local reports, her mother had signed off on the sale arrangements only she says she thought her daughter was just selling weed.

Former receptionist was sentenced today for poisoning and killing her chiropractic boss. It turns out that boss just happen to be the mother of

her ex-boyfriend. Kaitlyn Conley has now been sentenced to 23 years and she could have been sentenced to 25 in state prison. She was convicted of

manslaughter in the first degree.

And the judge who let the Stanford rape suspect off the hook more or less is now one step closer to being kicked off the bench by voters. Santa Clara

County voters right here, turning in nearly 100,000 signatures to recall Judge Aaron Persky. And that kicks off the process.

You may remember that Persky sentenced Brock Turner to just six months in jail after he was found guilty of sexually assaulting an unconscious woman

behind a dumpster.

It had such momentum, the Time is Up movement aiming to put an end to sexual assault and harassment in Hollywood. At the Golden Globe on Sunday

night almost every actor wore a Times Up pin, including this mega star James Franco. But I think you could this really backfired.

Because since his appearance on the red carpet and on stage receiving his award, multiple women have accused him of the very misconduct the group is

fighting.

Actress Violet Paley tweeting Sunday night, "Cute Time is Up pin, James Franco. Remember the time you pushed my head down in the car towards your

exposed penis? And that other time you told my friend to come to your hotel when she was 17 after you`d already been caught that to a different 17-year

old?"

And then a tweet from filmmaker Sarah Tither-Kaplan. "Hey, James Franco, nice Time is Up pin at the Golden Globe. Remember a few weeks ago when you

told me the full nudity that you had me do in two of your movies for a $100 a day, wasn`t exploitative because I signed a contract to do it? Time is up

on that?"

And then this, actress Ally Sheedy saying multiple times in tweets, "James Franco just won. Please never ask me why I left the film/TV business. Why

is James Franco allowed in? Me too."

It`s a check yourself before you wreck yourself time some people are saying. This time with the accusations coming out almost daily against the

men that we`ve been looking up to on and off the screen and many of them for a long time.

The 39-year-old James Franco who won best actor on Sunday night has spoken out since those accusations went public and he is defending his actions,

yet he is also supporting his accusers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES FRANCO, ACTOR: I was sent a couple of the tweets. So, yes, I did read them. I haven`t responded. I think -- well, the ones I read were not

accurate. But one of the things that I`ve learned is that this is a conversation that, obviously, needs to be had.

There are people, women and others who have not been a part of this conversation, and I truly believe and why I was wearing the pin is that,

they need to be a part of this conversation, and so I support that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Well, this is a tricky line to walk. And Jennifer Peros is an editor with Us Weekly working the story. This blew up fast and it blew up

furiously.

[18:04:55] JENNIFER PEROS, EDITOR, US WEEKLY: It did. I mean, like you said earlier in your script, it kind of sucks that, you know, James had this

amazing night on Sunday and then just moments later it kind of overshadowed by this very important topic and I think it`s also important to note that

James is coming out this week.

You know, he had one of the biggest moments in his career Sunday night. He`s doing press, he had all this scheduled interviews all week, so he

really can`t avoid this subject. I mean, he`s been on the Late Show with Stephen Colbert. He`s been on Seth Meyers. He has to speak about it.

But it is a good time. I think the story is hitting at a perfect time for James. Because he actually has to fess up and tell the truth that actually

reveal what happened.

BANFIELD: It got sad for a lot of people, though, because this is happening over and over again. Likeable characters being excused of doing very

unlikable things which has you sort of hanging in the balance between love and hate and wondering where you`re supposed to fall.

You mentioned the Stephen Colbert interview. I think this was the first one out of the gate. Even Stephen Colbert seem to tap dance around actually

going there and firing off the question, which was the elephant in the room. Let`s have a look at that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FRANCO: Look, in my life I pride myself on taking responsibility for things that I`ve done. I have to do that to maintain my wellbeing. I do it

whenever I know that there`s something wrong or needs to be changed. I make a point to do it.

The way I live my life, I can`t live if there`s restitution to be made, I will -- I will make it. So if I`ve done something wrong I will fix it. I

have to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: That`s a really good point. I will fix it. I think a lot of people are saying that because they are watching their empires crumbling

through their fingers right in front of their faces. Is it fixable? And before I even get to that question maybe we should get to the allegations

because they are pretty dirty.

PEROS: They are...

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: They are ugly.

PEROS: I do want to say you know the many times we`ve released this entire piece this morning. Five women saying that James did perform sexually

inappropriate or exploitative behavior. Nothing was physical. We just have to reiterate that no one is accusing him of rape or sexual abuse.

BANFIELD: So I`m going to go there. Because I know this is difficult to articulate especially on television at 6.07 Eastern Time. But I want to

explain to you and I`m going to give you the warning that some people might find this stuff offensive.

But this is what the L.A. Times accusers allege. That during some filming there was an orgy scene and some of the actresses were asked to perform

oral sex where he would be the one performing it on them. I did not know this. But as it turns out there are these clear plastic guards that go

across the woman`s private parts when there`s a simulation of an oral sex scene, and the allegation is that he removes them and continued these

scenes.

Important, Jennifer, to note that there wasn`t actual physical contact but that that`s pretty uncomfortable stuff. Here`s my question. I don`t work in

this business where you have to play act what people do all the time and sex is a huge part of movies.

So one would think you would have to learn how to do sex scenes in acting classes and perform them in movies. How bad is that thing that that woman

in the L.A. Times described?

PEROS: I mean, of course, it`s bad because it was against her will, right? She signed up to this part with knowing that she was going to have some

sort of barrier between this physical altercation.

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: So this doesn`t happen all the time.

PEROS: From what I know, from what I`ve been told it does not happen all the time. I think it`s also important to note that James did say and even

in the L.A. Times piece both Sarah and Violet said that when all these Harvey Weinstein allegations broke in October, James actually reached out

to them and tried to have a conversation.

BANFIELD: Wow.

PEROS: And you know, and tried to kind of clear the air and, of course, you know, all this, everything that happened with Sarah was just early last

year in 2016.

BANFIELD: Let me clear these names up because you just mentioned Violet and Sarah. And I want to read for our viewers the tweets that came out during

the Golden Globes. I`ll start with Violet. Violet Paley tweeted while, you know, James Franco was winning his award for the disaster artist.

"Cute Times is Up pin, James Franco. Remember the time you pushed my head down in a car towards your exposed penis? And that other time you told my

friend to come to your hotel when she was 17 after you`d already been caught doing that to a different 17-year-old?"

So that`s important to note that allegation about a different 17-year-old. Sarah tweeted as well, similar tweets as well. But the different 17-year-

old was an incident several years ago where James made contact on the street with a 17-year-old young woman who was taking his photograph.

You correct me if I`m wrong here with the facts. But he asked her to post it on Instagram and then he went to her Instagram and tried to get her to

meet with him knowing full well she was 17.

PEROS: And asking her which hotel she was staying at and which room. And of course, he went live with Kelly that next morning and he said, listen, I

guess lesson learned. I know now that I`m a public star and I have this open social media account. I now know that I need to be careful in what I`m

saying on Instagram.

[18:09:57] But I mean, the point being, and I think everybody is forgetting here, he knew that this girl was 17 but yet he still kept on flirting with

her on social media.

Listen, I think that there`s a lot more to come out, James Franco, I`m not going to confirm or deny that I`ve not heard some whispers in the past

about him being a flirt and hooking up with his co-stars. And you know, he was a professor at UCLA, USC. He taught a couple of classes here at

Columbia University here in New York City.

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: Here are some of the allegations that some of the students were very uncomfortable with him...

(CROSSTALK)

PEROS: Very uncomfortable, yes.

BANFIELD: Let me -- let me play a little bit more. Because you know, obviously, like you just said, he`s on a junket after his win. He`s

interviewing, you know, far and wide. He was on Seth Meyers. So I want to play a little bit more of the Seth Meyers interview.

And I think if you look at this, this is a guy who whether through authenticity or through desperate necessity is trying to fall on the sword

pretty hard. But you be the judge. Have a listen to the Seth Meyers interview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FRANCO: There are stories that need to get out. There are people that need to be heard. I have my own side of this story, but I believe in, you know,

these people that have been underrepresented getting their stories out enough that I will hold back things that I could say just because I believe

in it that much.

And if I have to take a knock because I`m not going to, you know, try and, you know, actively refute things then I will because I believe in it that

much.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I want to bring in Dominique Huett, she is one of the many women who have accused Harvey Weinstein of sexual assault. She joins me now live.

Dominique, you`ve probably consumed a lot of the media that we`re showing right now in this sort of whirlwind since the Sunday night Golden Globes.

I want to get your take on whether these mea culpa, these apologies, this, you know, tap dancing up to the line saying I won`t decry them because I

believe in the movement that much as opposed to, you know, gosh, darn, it I did it and I`m sorry. Is this enough and is there anything that James

Franco can do to right the wrongs that he says that he wants to right?

DOMINIQUE HUETT, HARVEY WEINSTEIN ACCUSER: Well, I think it`s a huge cultural shift that men are now rethinking some of their past actions

towards women and they abuse their position and all of a sudden now, you know, it`s coming to light that we`re not -- they`re not going to get away

with it any more.

So that is a big question we all have to ask ourselves as a society, how far can we take that apology. I mean, does that mean he can still work with

other people? Move forward in his career successfully? It`s kind of something we all have to decide as a country.

BANFIELD: And then -- and then there`s this whole notion, you know, Dominique, of backlash, of people saying this is almost like the political

correct movement that ultimately landed with Trump saying enough is enough, and his supporters saying you`re damn right.

I wonder if there`s any of that concern at this point. Given the fact that all these French actresses is sort of did this open letter saying, for

heaven`s sake allow men to flirt. My accent is awful. But you know what I mean. Like at what point -- at what point do you take down a lot of good

guys who may have done bad things to the detriment of the good thing that you`re trying to actually proffer?

HUETT: What is the question? Sorry.

BANFIELD: Well, it was badly worded. I`ll word it a different way. At some point, you know, it`s easy to vilify some and not as easy to vilify others

because they`re really likeable characters who`ve done unlikable things. And at some point, do they need to be able to make their come back or

apologize and have it accepted for the movement to be legitimate and actually be a movement that has, you know, future momentum?

HUETT: Well, I just feel for the young girls that went to that school and felt compromised by who their teacher was. So, they felt like maybe this

was a big break for them. I`ve been in that position. So, I mean...

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: I hear you. I`m on board with you 100 percent.

HUETT: Right, to abuse that authority.

BANFIELD: I`m on board with you 100 percent.

HUETT: Yes.

BANFIELD: I`ve been through this bull myself. I guess I`m trying to look at the bigger movement and, you know, the bigger societal shift and when does

the glacier sort of stop and when does the glacier stop and say, OK, everybody, kumbaya, like, when does that stop.

HUETT: I don`t think we can excuse any behavior. I think that we have to hold people accountable and there has to be repercussions from, you know.

BANFIELD: Is Franco done?

HUETT: I don`t know yet. It depends on what HBO I think decides for his theories.

BANFIELD: Jennifer, this is a great question for you. This is like your basket. This is your wheelhouse. You`re all about the entertainment

business and you`ve had to sort of just juggle this crazy moving parts puzzle.

PEROS: Well, I think the entertainment business has changed over the past three months, I mean, just the way that we cover news now is so different.

I mean, it`s just a -- it`s a different name every single day.

BANFIELD: Is he done?

[18:15:00] PEROS: Well, it should be interesting to see when Oscar nominations come out January 23rd to see.

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: Do you think that`s going to affect that?

PEROS: I don`t know. Listen, James Franco this movie is incredible. His performance in this is incredible. He completely did not get out of

character for over a year just to...

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: Yes, But you know how these awards are not always about the performance.

PEROS: There you go. It will be interesting to see if he wins the Golden Globe, is this going to affect to be whether or not he is going to be

nominated for an academy award. And you what I think, it`s going to matter, of course.

BANFIELD: Certainly keeps this topic right out in the forefront. Where it`s going I don`t know. I think it`s still a fascinating topic. Jennifer, thank

you for that. Dominique, thank you, as well. I appreciate it.

In Minnesota, a serial rapist who served 30 years for his crimes could soon be released and back walking on your street and mine. But should he be

allowed to have a fresh start as a free man? And is it possible for someone like that, and may I just mention a sadistic serial rapist of teen girls.

Can someone like that be rehabilitated?

[18:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Thomas Duvall is 62 years old. And he spent roughly half of his life in prison. Specifically the last 30 years. Not for a crime he didn`t

commit or on trumped up charges. As you`re going to see, Duvall is a sexual predator, a violent one. He`s a serial rapist with a long list of

convictions in the `70s and `80s. His victims, teenage girls.

On his last conviction, Duvall was sentenced to 20 years in prison but he`s been in custody ever since 1987 because authorities didn`t believe he was

well enough to be set free. But that changed this week.

The Minnesota sex offender program overseeing him approved Duvall`s petition for a release. Saying his progress in treatment outweighs his,

quote, "fearful diagnosis as a sexual sadist."

But there are a lot of officials in Minnesota who don`t agree. The head of the Human Services Commission that oversees the sex offender program says

it plans to appeal. In fact, that head, Emily Piper gave us this statement. Saying, "I, along with three testifying experts in this case believe that

Thomas Duvall pose an exceptional risk to public safety and should not be released into the community at this time. I disagree with the cuort`s

decision to the contrary and will appeal this decision."

Chris Serres is a reporter with the Minnesota Star Tribune. He joins me now live. Now Chris, I don`t understand the disconnect. If you got a guy who is

being assessed by experts and several of the experts are weighing in saying he`s not ready, he`s dangerous, how do they get trumped and how does he end

up getting the green light to be released?

CHRIS SERRES, REPORTER, MINNEAPOLIS STAR TRIBUNE: Well, I think it`s important to remember that, you know, Thomas Duvall is one of the most

violent sex offenders in Minnesota State history. Now keep in mind that this is someone who has already admitted to attacking more than 60 women.

This is someone who in 1978 he was convicted for raping a 17-year-old girl while driving her home from the state fair.

And then just three days after getting out of prison for that horrific assault he went out and he sexually assaulted two more girls ages 14 and

15, and then after he got out of prison for those assaults on the day after Christmas in 1987, he broke into a woman`s apartment, he bound her with an

electrical cord and repeatedly raped her over a three hour period. And he left her for dead. That`s Thomas Duvall.

That is the person that this treatment program in the State of Minnesota says is fit and ready to be released into the community.

BANFIELD: And so -- I should just add one detail to your extraordinary reporting there of that many, you know, numerous assaults, 1978, 1981. A

string of four more in 1981 and 1987. That 1987 woman that you referenced to was found with the electrical cord and repeatedly raped over a two-hour

period and hit with a hammer. She was 17.

So, everybody on that list was between the ages of 14 and 17 and upon release as you said several times within three days on one release he was

already re-offending, within 12 days of another release he was already re- offending.

I come back to the same question, though, Chris. There have been experts who have weighed in and have said this isn`t right, he`s not ready. In

fact, one of those experts I believe is his primary therapist named Kristi Mike.

And I`m just going read a quick piece from her report but she said "Duvall continues to have deviant sexual thoughts. While a thought in and of itself

is not deviant unless acted upon, having deviant thoughts about minors who fall within the petitioners victim pool is problematic."

And I guess, Chris, as it turns out he was asked to write journals about his fantasies while he was in prison as part of his therapy and though he

was not directed to he went right to the victims that he victimized and fantasized about them. I`m not sure if that`s what Kristi Mike is referring

to about minors who fall within the petitioner`s pool being problematic.

[18:25:04] But this is his primary therapist. Where is the disconnect? Who is saying he is fine and how they`re he any better than his primary

therapist?

SERRES: Well, in fact, one of the courts own appointed psychologist reviewed hundreds, if not thousands of pages of his treatment history and

concluded that Thomas Duvall is not ready to be released into the community because he continues to have violent sexual fantasies and because he

continues to fail to pass lie detector tests about those violent fantasies.

Now one of the things people need to keep in mind is that Thomas Duvall has been locked up since 1991, not in a prison, but in a treatment program.

Minnesota is one of 20 states that operates a separate, essentially extra- legal confinement system for sex offenders.

So, after they complete their prison terms they are sent to so-called treatment and these centers can keep these men indefinitely. And so, in

2011, a number of these sex offenders sued the State of Minnesota basically claiming that the state was violating their due process constitutional

rights by keeping them locked up indefinitely without access to the courts.

Essentially, we were operating these little Guantanamo in the middle of Minnesota. As a result of that lawsuit a federal judge declared that our

program is unconstitutional and that you actually have to give them access to the courts and that this program has to show that it`s not just

punishing the sex offenders but it`s actually treating them. That if you operate a treatment program you actually have to show you`re treating them.

So the program itself has been under pressure from the federal courts to actually release more of these offenders into the community. So, here we

sit today and Thomas Duvall is one of these people. He`s been locked up, you know, for, in essence for 30 years.

BANFIELD: I mean, I understand the constitutional argument. That makes perfect sense. I guess what I don`t understand is how somebody who took a

hammer to a 17-year-old`s head while he bound her with an electrical cord and molested her and raped her repeatedly for hours upon in wasn`t

sentenced to life. That`s what I`m so curious about is how he wasn`t sentenced to life.

Let me bring in Derek Logue. He`s retired -- he`s a registered sex offender and he`s the author of and the founder of oncefallen.com. I also want to

bring in Ashley Willcott, a certified child welfare law specialist, a juvenile court judge and trial attorney, and I also want to bring in a sex

therapist Chris Donaghue.

Derek, let me go to you first. I think I know what you`re going to say but I want to have your say. This man was sentenced to 20 years. He`s been held

for 30. He has a constitutional privilege. Yet, he`s scary and he`s dangerous according to the experts who are treating him. Do you believe

that perhaps this is one of those cases where he should have been locked up for life?

DEREK LOGUE, REGISTERED SEX OFFENDER: Well, my take on this situation is that, first of all, I feel like he`s an anomaly among people on the

registry. The vast majority of us don`t re-offend. I`ve been out for 15 years. So I would like to say there`s proof of that.

You know, but the thing about it is I`m not here to speculate. I`m here to say one thing. If this person is released what I hope is that this person,

you know, stays on the straight and narrow and that he gets a job and becomes a productive member of society. And that he doesn`t bother anybody

and live out the rest of his days because there`s a lot riding on it both for him and for all of us who are stuck on this registry because we`re all

going to be treated the same way this guy is in the eyes of society.

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: I get, no, I totally hear you and what the Constitution is here for a reason and we all deserve the protection of it. I guess when I look

at a guy like Thomas Duvall and the re-offending he`s already done and the extraordinary sadistic nature of his sexual crimes to teenage girls, I

wonder if we should all be put at risk so that he can get a privilege when he`s already sort of defied his right to be extended, the same privilege

the rest of us get.

I guess if you have a sister would you be OK giving him that chance and having her lift next to him? Derek, can you hear me?

LOGUE: I didn`t know you were talking to me.

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: Yes, I`m sorry, Derek. I just want -- you know, I get what you`re saying.

LOGUE: The thing is...

BANFIELD: And he should have --he should have a right and you hope he`s, you know, he walks the straight and narrow. But do you want to risk your

sister`s safety living next to him so that he can have that right and we can all cross our fingers that everything is going to be OK?

LOGUE: Again, you know, I can`t -- again, I can`t deal in hypotheticals. But, you know, the problem that we had with civil commitment problems is

that it really has been a way for courts and people to go beyond the Constitution and keep people detained long beyond their prison sentences.

[18:30:08] I`ve been speaking with a guy for over seven years named Chris Creek (ph), who, you know, who is in one of these programs. He tells me,

they are not even giving him treatment, you know.

And he`s been in there for seven, eight, nine years now. So, you know, they`re just going through the motions.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, PRIMETIME JUSTICE SHOW HOST: I think I want to go back to the question. It`s an important question because I think anyone who

knows that a dangerous guy who is re-offended is going to be back out on the street, doesn`t want to be on the street with him, which is not really

a hypothetical, it`s really an honest question.

Would you like one of your best girlfriends, your mother, your sister, your niece to be on the same street? And would you be crossing your fingers and

hope for the best and be OK with that, Derek?

LOGUE: Well, the thing about it is, you know, I don`t have any living family at this moment to deal with this hypothetical situation. But, you

know, to humor for a minute, what if a murderer moved down the street from me or somebody who smashed a little old lady up side the street, the thing

is, I`m not going to be told that this person killed 20 people or, you know, robbed 30 old ladies.

You know, we only do this with people who are convicted of sex crimes and I think that`s problematic. You know, what about the risk of it?

BANFIELD: So, let me bring -- let me bring in Chris Donaghue on this. He`s a sex therapist and a clinical psychologist who treat people with sexual

proclivities that are illegal and dangerous.

CHRIS DONAGHUE, SEX THERAPIST: Right.

BANFIELD: How do respond to Derek saying saying, well, murderers get released and dangerous criminals get released, and how should sex offenders

be any different even though they are treated differently?

DONAGHUE: This is completely different, because we are talking about someone who not only has a consistent history of sexual assault, it`s also

someone who has a primary sexual arousal to teenagers. That part will not go away.

And so someone who has that kind of arousal, and they are in treatment and after this length of time they are still saying and showing through their

logs that they are having deviant sexual thoughts, this is not someone who has done enough work on their sexuality in order for me to feel comfortable

that they would be out in the world dealing with all the triggers and the high risk situations appropriately.

BANFIELD: Chris, real quickly, do you get the notion that the primary therapist can say what she has said about Tom Duvall and yet the -- I think

he`s the clinical director of the program that he`s in, says that he doesn`t know -- he doesn`t know that there`s deviant violent arousal with

this particular patient. Like they seem to have divergent opinions.

DONAGHUE: Yes. And it`s a watering down. When someone says it`s not illegal or crime to have a fantasy, that`s problematic, that`s true. But again,

when we were talking about someone that has a history of impulse control, lacks empathy, and doesn`t have boundaries, it then does become

problematic.

And again, these treatment centers, they sometimes operate on a really problematic continuum where they are used to hearing people that maybe are

far worse. And so they are more comfortable hearing certain things and taking that risk.

BANFIELD: This one -- this one seems to be on the far worse part of the spectrum.

DONAGHUE: For sure.

BANFIELD: Let me bring in -- let me bring in Ashley Willcott on this. You are the welfare law specialist. You are the judge and trial attorney. You

are the person who is going to get me off the legal ledge, because I don`t understand two things. Why didn`t he get a life sentence to protect us all

for life so we don`t have this constitutional conundrum?

And then how is it he could be released when his primary therapist says it`s problematic and others are weighing in and saying it`s problematic,

and the attorney general has already in 2014 blocked his release because he`s dangerous?

ASHLEY WILLCOTT, CERTIFIED CHILD WEFLARE LAW SPECIALIST: Right.

BANFIELD: How does that happen?

WILLCOTT: Here is where the disconnect is, in my opinion. I don`t think the panel got it right. So I think that they looked at what the therapist said

and thought, OK, he has successfully completed the sex offender treatment. Fine. That may be the case.

But that does not mean that he should be released. It does not mean that he will not re-offend. It does not mean that he does not pose a huge risk to

society. The man is a beast based on his actions, his diagnosis of a sexual sadist.

So they got it wrong. I think the disconnect between say the therapist and the actual agency that wants to appeal is, OK, one of them can say, yes, he

has completed our sex offender treatment successfully, in our opinion, that`s well and good. But you still have to consider the risk to the people

in the world and --

BANFIELD: I believe that. And I have to just, you know, give big props to everyone on my panel for your perspectives tonight. Chris Serres, thank you

for your reporting. Chris Donaghue, thank you for your expertise.

Derek, we butted heads a lot on this program and I appreciate you being thoughtful about this segment and I do welcome you back at another time.

Ashley Willcott, thank you as well.

I`m really looking forward to see how this story turns out. I would like to have you all back as well. Thank you, everybody.

A self-described friend of a Denver teenage found dead on a dairy farm speaks out about her case.

(START VIDEO CLIP)

[18:35:00] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know what happened to her?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. Do you know who does?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tell me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How would I know what happened to Natalie? What do you guys know?

BANFIELD (voice over): Well, that is the million-dollar question with this brown eyed beauty, isn`t it? What happened to Natalie? What happened to

Natalie and why was she found dead at a dairy farm?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[18:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Natalie Bollinger was just 19 years old. An artist, according to her family, who had been drawing since she could first hold a crayon. She

was also a dreamer who wanted to be a nurse.

But Natalie Bollinger will never draw or never dream again because Natalie Bollinger went missing just days after she filed a restraining order

against an older man that she befriended. And nearly 24 hours after she vanished, she was found, but she was dead. It was near a dairy farm not far

from her home.

(START VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Is there an active threat to the community right now? Are you -- should people be worried at all since you

haven`t found anyone and there was a body that was found?

MICHAEL MCINTOSH, SHERIFF, ADAMS COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: That`s a great question. I don`t believe that there is through the investigation, through

some of the leads that we`ve gone through. You know, I feel comfortable in saying that there`s not a threat to the community.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): So you feel pretty close to finding who was responsible for this?

MCINTOSH: I think that we are headed down the right path, yes.

BANFIELD (voice over): But tonight, no one has been arrested for Natalie`s death. No one has even been named as a suspect though police say they are

convinced of one thing, foul play.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Randy Corporon is the host on KNUS 710 in Denver. Randy, why should we not be worried and why did the police sound so convinced that

they are on the right path, yet they are not naming anybody who is even on their radar?

RANDY CORPORON, HOST, 710 KNUS: That`s a great question, Ashleigh. I wondered why back on the day that Natalie went missing, within three hours,

the family was calling in and reporting her missing. She was a 19-year-old teenager. You wouldn`t think someone would be surprised that they are gone

for three hours during the day.

And now we have Mr. Schwartz who came back into the police radar last week when he was making some Facebook posts that had the police concerned enough

to do a welfare check.

BANFIELD: OK, let me take it from there. Hold on for a second, Randy. About Mr. Schwartz. You mentioned him. Shawn Schwartz, 37 years old. Natalie

Bollinger took a restraining order out against him, a protective order.

And here`s what we know according to the court documents. I want to be real clear about him. He had been making some posts on Facebook that led the

police to conduct that welfare check that you just mentioned.

He was allegedly crying to the police and saying that he wanted to talk to Natalie, but couldn`t anymore because she was dead. Police ultimately took

him to the hospital and that`s where they alleged that he became combative and violent. And now Shawn Schwartz is facing assault and resisting arrest.

We tried to reach him to get comment. He didn`t respond before air time. But just after his court appearance, he did talk to some reporters who were

walking out alongside him. And I want to play for our audience, if I can, what that was like. Have a look.

(START VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve been instructed not to speak to you all, but I got a few more fingers for you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know what happened to her?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. Do you know who does?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tell me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How would I know what happened to Natalie? What do you guys know? All I know is from Facebook messenger. And I hate Facebook.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What did Facebook messenger say?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It doesn`t matter. You need to talk to the police and talk to them. You can go contact the police department and you can ask them

for whatever information that you feel is pertinent.

However, my rights have been violated for the last week, and you guys are seriously all up in my bubble and freaking me out. You seriously are giving

me a panic attack. Well done, sir.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So it`s important to reiterate here. Shawn Schwartz who you just saw has not been named a suspect in Natalie`s death or her disappearance.

Just because she had a protective order against him in the weeks before she disappeared does not mean that he knows anything about what happened to

her.

It`s never a good appearance. Joey Jackson, as a defense attorney, you struggle with that kind of thing. But if you look at it from the flip side,

if you wanted to do harm to Natalie Bollinger and you found out she had a protective order against someone else, isn`t that a good opportunity or am

I reaching?

JOEY JACKSON, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, CNN AND HLN LEGAL ANALYST: That is a great point. Well, listen, obviously there`s a protective order because

there`s something amiss in that relationship, right? You don`t get protective orders unless there`s some fear, some concern.

At the same time, in the event someone else wanted to do her harm and there`s an understanding that there`s a protective order against you, it

would certainly present a great opportunity to do that harm where all eyes would look to you and not them. So, it`s a good point, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: We don`t know what scared this young woman so much that she took out that protective order against Shawn Schwartz but we`re going to watch

this story. And if the police are right

[18:45:00] and they say we don`t have anything to worry about and they are on the right path, then watch this face, because we may have some news in

the coming days.

There is outrage tonight, a woman wearing only a hospital gown is put out on a cold Baltimore streets by the hospital where she was being treated. So

many questions. So many questions.

[18:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Most of us would agree at night in winter in the northeast, temperatures are pretty routinely in the 30s. But there is nothing normal

or routine about a recent Facebook video of a woman being discharged from a Baltimore Hospital wearing nothing but a hospital gown and socks.

What is even more infuriating is that she is just left standing at a bus stop, outside of the Baltimore Hospital, as four men presumably security

guards just walk off. I want to warn you that the video you`re about to see is difficult to watch not only because of what`s in it, but because of the

questions that it raises about the events leading up to it.

(START VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): You`re just going to leave this lady out here with no clothes on?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): Due to the circumstances of what it was.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): You all need to call the police. So you all are just going to leave this lady out here like this? So I`m assuming that

you are all with the security department? OK. Is there a supervisor available? So you are all OK with leaving that woman out there like that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ladies and gentlemen, I`m at a local hospital where individuals have left a patient half-naked on the city streets. And it`s

about 30 degrees out here right now. And I am not sure why this is even happening. But we`re going to find out.

(voice over): Ma`am, are you OK? Are you OK? Are you unable to speak? Are you OK, ma`am? Do you need me to call the police? Why don`t you go and sit

down, ma`am? You don`t look well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Just to remind you, the temperature is near freezing. You probably heard one of those security guards say that she was out there

quote, due to the circumstances of what happened. But those circumstances still remain unclear to us tonight.

The man who shot that video did call for an ambulance. The ambulance picked the woman up and she was taken right back inside that hospital just moments

later. Just a short time ago in a news conference, the head of the University of Maryland Medical Center where this happened, said that this

woman was not removed from the hospital because she couldn`t pay.

(START VIDEO CLIP)

MOHAN SUNTHA, PRESIDENT AND CEO, UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND MEDICAL CENTER: We believe firmly that we provided appropriate medical care to a patient who

came to us in need. But where we absolutely failed and where we own that failure is in the demonstration of basic humanity and compassion as a

patient was being discharged.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Defense Attorney Joey Jackson is with me now. I don`t even know where to begin. Maybe her care inside the hospital was adequate, but how

does this happen? First of all, on a human level, second of all, on a logistics level.

JACKSON: Hundred percent. And what trouble is even more troubling, I would guarantee that this is not the first such time that this occurred. Now this

is the time that they were caught and thank goodness, as you were saying right off camera, this bystander who took the time and the opportunity to

expose this.

And so we have to get to the bottom of it. There need to be protocols in place to ensure that people are not dropped out on the street in gown and

freezing weather. Look, she could be even in worse harm, right, at that time, if it weren`t for this bystander. It has to stop.

BANFIELD: Yes. Thank God for he did show this in such a clear and concise way. Really appreciate his work there and we hope that this doesn`t happen

again. This could cost that hospital.

JACKSON: It could.

BANFIELD: Could cost them dearly financially if she`s capable of suing. Joey, thank you for that. I want to talk a little bit about karma, bad

karma. Cops say a Massachusetts woman skipped her mother`s funeral, so that she could allegedly head back to mom`s home and steal a safe with $90,000

worth of valuables in it. Seriously. The details are straight ahead.

[18:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Got one more thing for you tonight. Last week, Alyce Davenport`s mother passed away. But instead of going to her mom`s funeral, police say

she instead got a friend and went to mom`s house

[19:00:00] and robbed it while everyone else was at the service. She and Deron Coners (ph) allegedly stole a safe from her mother`s bedroom worth

about $90,000. Currently inside this is jewelry and coins, savings bonds and stocks.

Family members discovered the burglary when the ones who were at the funeral came home. Police were able to track down Deron Coners down. They

were able to recover that stolen property and now this pair is facing multiple charges including breaking and entering and larceny and judgment,

moral judgment.

Tensions are running high tonight in North Little Rock, Arkansas after an officer involved shooting caught on camera leaves a 17-year-old boy dead.

But all is not as it may have first appeared. That`s why the police released the video and guess what? We got it.

The next hour of CRIME AND JUSTICE starts right new.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pulled over after a party. But a teenager is suddenly shot dead. What they told the officers before a friendly pat-down turned

fatal.

This is him then. And this is him now after 30 years behind bars for sadistic sex crimes against teenage girls. Now he will be walking free. Has

treatment made him a changed man? Should a serial rapist be back on our streets?

A missing young beauty.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is about a 26 hour time period that is missing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Found dead near a dairy farm.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Deceased female in her early 20s.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just days after she got a restraining order.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One person in particular that she had a restraining order against in mid-December.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Against a man whose now speaking out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My rights have been violated for the last week.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He says he doesn`t know what happened to her.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know what happened to her?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. Do you know who does?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tell me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How I would know what happened to Natalie?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But two weeks later her death is still a mystery.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: Good evening, everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. This is the second hour of crime and justice. Thank you for being with us.

Tonight some police officers in North Little Rock, Arkansas are being threatened with their lives after a late night traffic stop over the

weekend turned into a shooting on the street and a 17-year-old boy was killed.

The whole interaction between officers and people in the car. Well, it was all caught on dash cam. And we all know, unfortunately, this is not the

only shooting captured by cops on cameras or carried out by police.

But this video is throwing some people for a loop. Because of how the story began to spread throughout the community and some untruths that could only

be proven out by the video`s release. And so the cops did it. They released it. They released the video. We do want to warn you as we play it for you

tonight it`s hard to watch. It starts out with a traffic stop and what seems like, you know, friendly chitchat about school.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s going on, man, you just, super uptight, nervous.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. I just was ticked getting pulled over.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It happens.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It wasn`t anything at you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right, because being pulled over, I`m trying like, keep this, a steady good record pace. I`m actually trying to become a police

officer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Really?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where at Little Rock?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What all that entail? I`m never heard anything about it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The cadet program is like, you know, how you can`t be a cop until like you are 21 and all that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So it trains you like until like you are 21.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That light, you know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The light is blinding.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s just something you can do like to you like the age of 21.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What were you all doing in that party?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We wasn`t doing anything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nothing. Nothing crazy?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, man. I`m catching a vibe from you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m trying to figure it out brother.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know. I`m trying. I was like, OK, let me calm down.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: So that original tone was cordial only it takes a real twist when the officer starts inspecting the third passenger in that car.

17-year-old Charles Smith Jr. Charles is asked three times to stop reaching for his waist band. He did not. And a warning, this is difficult to watch.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

[19:05:06] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Isn`t nothing but a little bit of weed, man. Like for real. Like you tell us. Don`t reach.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just a little bit of weed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Isn`t going to find nothing else in here, right?

(INAUDIBLE)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: So, look clearly. It is tricky but in the scuffle, there`s a gun in that circle. Tonight, the officers who are involved in this are on paid

administrative leave as this traffic stop turned fatality is being investigated. And there you see the gun in the hand of Charles Smith Jr.

This is never an easy topic. This has been in (INAUDIBLE) for the better of the decade. This is why black lives matter was launched because African-

Americans have a very difficult time being stopped at an irregular rate, treated differently. There have been unfair shootings. There have been

other shootings. But this shooting took on a unique life of its own before anyone ever saw this video.

And I want to bring in Darren Minor. He is a reporter for I Heart media, Arkansas. He joins me live right now.

Darren, maybe if you can explain. You are the Fort Smith area, if you could explain to me what life did this incident take on when just the news broke

that a 17-year-old African-American young man had been shot by the police?

DARREN MINOR, REPORTER, IHEARTMEDIA, ARKANSAS (on the phone): Well, that`s the whole thing, Ashleigh. This started trending on twitter. It became a

Facebook -- became a Facebook thing quickly. And a lot of people think the police chief of North Little Rock which is Mike Davis, he did the right

thing in very quickly -- I know you might say well this happened, you know, over the weekend. It wasn`t released until Wednesday. But that`s pretty

quick by a lot of these standards.

He put this video out because I think he wanted to tamp down this heat a little bit because if you watch the video you hear the nature of those

officers talking to these suspects. And I think that a lot of people feel like him putting that out has calmed things a lot because there was a small

march held last night. It was mostly members of the family, friends of the victim. It wasn`t unruly. We had a reporter there. He didn`t feel a lot of

tension. And so, I think Mike Davis is the guy who comes across looking here as kind of a hero in that he put this thing out so quick.

BANFIELD: I`m glad that you just mentioned that vigil. I actually want to play something that was recorded at that vigil. The driver of the car who

is one of the kids you are seeing in this video, Juwan Jordan, spoke to a reporter.

Now, let`s be really clear here. Juwan Jordan spoke to the reporter before anybody got a chance to see this video, right? So the story that is going

out to the community is perhaps not quite exactly as is depicted in the video. I think what you are about to hear is Juwan Jordan trying to elicit

sympathy, maybe understandably his friend has been shot. But some of his facts are absolutely off. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUWAN JORDAN, VICTIM`S FRIEND: We were headed to a party. He was riding down the Camp Robinson road. I don`t know where he came from. He just

pulled us over for no reason. And he said it was because a light or something. The light was working. (INAUDIBLE). They told him to get down.

He got down. He was laying on the ground.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: A couple of points of order here. They just pulled us over for reason. It was very clear that police officer said I pulled you over for

the light and you were speeding. And, in fact, I believe that Charles Smith Jr. acknowledged that. They were not tussling -- they didn`t just start

tussling. The tussling began when the gun was observed by the police because Charles Smith Jr. reached for his waist band three times after

being asked not to.

When he said he was already lying on the ground, he was not already lying on the ground. They were tussling and going down to the ground. So there

are some facts that could only be, you know, really corrected by seeing this for yourself.

Now I want to show two still pictures. One still picture shows Charles Smith Jr. on the ground. Can you see the small circle? It is hard to make

it out but he is clearly holding a gun and trying to cock it. Apparently this happened twice. He tried to cock the gun twice.

On his back with his arms up, at one point his gun went off towards his friends. At a second point the gun went off towards the officers and that`s

when the officers returned fire. I think it is also critical to note the officers even though they saw a gun and knew they were dealing with a gun

and were tussling with someone with a gun they used a taser for.

So I want to bring in Brandon Tatum. He is a former police officer and spokesperson for conservativetribune.com.

You are a cop. You know how it works. Did this work? Were they in the wrong? Were they in the right? Was this by the book? How do you see this?

[19:11:00] BRANDON TATUM, FORMER POLICE OFFICER: Yes, I see this as been, them being, going by the book exactly. They couldn`t have done it any

better. They gave him multiple chances. They tried to use less lethal. One guy did a few fist strikes to try to eliminate this gentleman from pulling

a gun and shooting them. And well, with all the efforts that they gave, it was unsuccessful and the other officer had to do something about it. And he

had to retaliate or return with lethal force.

BANFIELD: So I want to bring in Daren Minor, real quickly.

Daren, I think you wanted to make a correction to something that you just reported. What was it?

MINOR: Well, when you see that video of the driver, that was at the vigil on Monday night. The vigil held Wednesday night that I said that was after

the video had been released and it was a totally different atmosphere after that video was released.

BANFIELD: Well, I bet the atmosphere changed because people were able to see exactly what played out.

MINOR: Exactly.

BANFIELD: Let me bring in Lee Merritt. Lee is a civil rights attorney. He represents the 17-year-old boy who was shot in this case, Charles Smith Jr.

He represents Charles Smith Jr.`s estate.

Mr. Merritt, can you hear me OK?

LEE MERRITT, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY REPRESENTS SMITH ESTATE (on the phone): I can hear you fine. Thank you.

BANFIELD: So tell me where I`m not seeing this and where Brandon Tatum whose police officer is not seeing this in terms of anything other than,

you know, being the police officers acting by the book?

MERRITT: I don`t know that we will find a point of disagreement in terms of the police procedure and dealing with the threat with the gun Mr. Smith was

wielding.

What the family has come in to do is because anytime that have a loss of human life, it`s a tragedy. And the family is left to pick up the pieces.

The family was not given a media access to that video. They didn`t know what happened. They have the kind of narrative from the driver and from the

community and they had the history of police or law enforcement with the community to sort of steer their perception of what happened. And so they

go to my office to get to the bottom of exactly what took place. And the idea is we want access to the video which law enforcement granted at record

speed in this case. We want access to the disciplinary side. We want the family to be included in the investigative process and the concept we are

looking for is procedural justice so that we arrive at a just conclusion. And so the community can begin to heal and move on for from a loss for that

community.

BANFIELD: That just brings me - Merritt, just conclusion does that include a lawsuit. Is there some discrepancy or some issue that I mean, that you

have seen the video. It seems crystal clear. And God forbid I ever end up another grieving over my child who is dead because of something that he

did. But is there anyone else to blame here other than Charles Schmidt Jr.?

MERRITT: So no, there`s not a lawsuit in every case. And I don`t anticipate a lawsuit being brought on this case. What the family is looking -- this

family and this community will continue to deal with the North Little Rock police force and they would like to see the same policies and procedures in

place for the next police involved shooting. I believe there have been three deadly police shootings or actually three deadly police shootings on

that same day in the Little Rock area.

BANFIELD: Let me real quickly if I can just bring in Joey Jackson on this. You know, it`s hard seeing this. 17-year-old kids are 17-year-old kids. He

had a gun. It happened the way police are trained.

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It did.

BANFIELD: What do we learn from this? I got ten seconds.

JACKSON: I always say comply now, grieve later. If you have a grievance take to it an attorney, you resolve it there. Don`t do it in the street.

BANFIELD: All right. Joey Jackson, thank you for that. I do appreciate it. Thank you (INAUDIBLE) as well.

In Minnesota, a serial rapist who has spent the last 30 years behind bars could soon be released and back on the streets but should he be allowed to

have a fresh start as a free man? Is it for someone like this to be rehabilitated?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:19:40] BANFIELD: Thomas Duvall is 62 years old. And he spent roughly half of his life in prison, specifically the last 30 years. Not for a crime

he didn`t commit or on trumped up charges.

As you are going to see, Duvall is a sexual predator, a violent one. He is a serial rapist with a long list of convictions in the `70s and `80s. His

victims, teenage girls. On his last conviction, Duvall was sentenced to 20 years in prison, but he has been in custody ever since 1987 because

authorities didn`t believe he was well enough to be set free.

But that changed this week. The Minnesota sex offender program overseeing him approved Duvall`s petition for a release saying his progress in

treatment outweighs his quote "fearful diagnosis" as a sexual sadist.

But there are a lot of officials in Minnesota who don`t agree. The head of the human services commission that oversees the sex offender program says

it plans to appeal. In fact that head, Emily Peer (ph) gave us this statement saying, I, along with three testifying experts in this case

believe that Thomas Duvall pose an exceptional risk to public safety and should not be released into the community at this time. I disagree with the

court`s decision to the contrary and will appeal this decision.

Chris Serres is a reporter with the Minneapolis "Star Tribune." He joins me live now.

Chris, I don`t understand the disconnect. If you have a guy who is assessed by experts and several of the experts who are weighing in saying he is not

ready. He is dangerous. How do they get trumped and how does he end up getting the green light to be released?

CHRIS SERRES, REPORTER, MINNEAPOLIS STAR TRIBUNE: Well, I think it`s important to remember that Thomas Duvall is one of the most violent sex

offenders in Minnesota state history. Keep in mind this is someone who has already admitted to attacking more than 60 women. This is someone who in

1978 he was convicted for raping a 17-year-old girl while driving her home from the state fair. And then just three days after getting out of prison

for that horrific assault he went out and he sexually assaulted two more girls ages 14 and 15. And then after he got out of prison for those

assaults, on the day after Christmas in 1987, he broke into a woman`s apartment. He bound her with an electrical cord and repeatedly raped her

over a three hour period. And then he left her for dead. That`s Thomas Duvall. That is the person that this treatment program in the state of

Minnesota says is fit and ready to be released into the community.

BANFIELD: And so -- I should just add one detail to your extraordinary reporting there of that many -- numerous assaults, 1978, 1981, a string of

four more in 1981 and 1987. That 1987 woman that you referenced who was bound with the electrical cord and repeatedly raped over a two hour period

and hit with a hammer, she was 17.

So, everybody in that list was between the ages of 14 and 17. And upon release, as you said several times, within three days on one release he was

already re-offending, within 12 days of another release, he was already re- offending.

I come back to the same question, though. Chris. There have been experts who have weighed in and have said this isn`t right. He is not ready. In

fact, one of those experts I believe is his primary therapist named Christie Mike. And I`m just going read a quick piece from her report but

she said Duvall continues to have deviant sexual thoughts. While a thought in and of itself is not deviant unless acted upon, having deviant thoughts

about minors who fall within the petitioner`s victim pool is problematic.

And I guess, Chris, as it turns out he was asked to write journals about his fantasies while he was in prison as part of his therapy. And though he

was not directed to, he went right to the victims that he victimized and fantasized about them. And I`m not sure that`s what Chris Mike is referring

to. About minors falling into the petitioner`s victim pool being problematic. But this is his primary therapist. Where is the disconnect?

Who is saying he is fine and how are they any better than his primary therapist?

SERRES: Well, in fact, one of the courts own appointed psychologist reviewed hundreds if not thousands of pages of his treatment history and

concluded that Thomas Duvall is not ready to be released in to the community because he continues to have violent sexual fantasies and because

he continues to fail to pass lie detector tests about those violent fantasies.

Now, one of the things people need to keep in mind is that Thomas Duvall has been locked up since 1991, not in a prison, but in a treatment program.

Minnesota is one of 20 states that operates a separate, essentially extralegal confinement system for sex offenders. So after they complete

their prison terms they are sent to so-called treatment and these centers can keep these men indefinitely.

And so in 2011 a number of these sex offenders sued the state of Minnesota basically claiming that the state was violating their due process

constitutional rights by keeping them locked up indefinitely without access to the courts. Essentially we were operating these little Guantanamos in

the middle of Minnesota.

And so as a result of that lawsuit a judge declared our program is unconstitutional and that you actually have to give them access to the

courts and that this program has to show that it`s not just punishing the sex offenders but is actually treating them. That if you operate a

treatment program you actually have to show you are treating them.

So the program itself has been under pressure from the federal courts to actually release more of these offenders into the community. So here we sit

today and Thomas Duvall is one of these people. He`s been locked up in essence for 30 years.

[19:26:19] BANFIELD: I understand the constitutional argument. That makes perfect sense. I guess what I don`t understand is how somebody who took a

hammer to a 17-year-olds head while he bound her with an electrical cord and molested her and raped her for hours wasn`t sentenced to life. That`s

what I`m so curious about is how he was sentenced to life.

Let me bring in Derek Logue. He is a registered sex offender. And he is the author of and founder of oncefallen.com. I also want to bring Ashley

Wilcost, certified child welfare law specialist, a juvenile court judge and trial attorney. And I also want to bring in a sex therapist, Chris Donohue.

Derek, let me go to you first. I think I know what you are going to say, but I want you to have your say. This man was sentenced to 20 years. He has

been held for 30. He has a constitutional privilege. Yet, he is scary and he is dangerous according to the experts who are treating him. Do you

believe that perhaps this is one of those cases where he should have been locked up for life?

DEREK LOGUE, REGISTERED SEX OFFENDER: Well, my take on this situation is that, first of all, I feel like he`s an anomaly among people on the

registry. The vast majority of us don`t re-offend. I have been out for 15 years. So I would like to say there`s proof of that.

You know, there is a thing about it is, I`m not here to speculate. I`m here to say one thing. If this person is released what I hope is that this

person, you know, stays on the straight and narrow and that he gets a job and becomes a productive member of society. That he doesn`t bother anybody

and lives out the rest of his days because there`s a lot riding on it both for him and all of us stuck on this registry because we are all going to be

treated the same with this guy is --.

BANFIELD: I get you. I totally hear you and what the constitution is here for a reason and we all deserve the protection of it. I guess when I look

at a guy like Thomas Duvall and the re-offending he is already done and the extraordinary sadistic nature of his sexual crimes to teenage girls, I

wonder if we should all be put at risk so that he can get a privilege when he is already sort of defied his right to be extended, the same privilege

the rest of us get.

I guess if you have a sister would you be OK giving him that chance and have her live next to him? Derek can you hear me? I`m sorry, Derek.

LOGUE: (INAUDIBLE)

BANFIELD: I get what you are saying, he should have a right and you hope, you know he walks the straight and narrow. But do you want to risk your

sister`s safety living next to him so that he can have that right and we can cross our fingers that everything will be OK.

LOGUE: Again, I can`t deal in hypotheticals. But you know, the problem we had with civil commitment programs is that it really has been away for

courts - for people to go beyond the constitution and keep people detained long beyond their prison sentences. I have been speaking with a guy for

seven years in Chris Creek, you know, who is in one of these programs now right there (INAUDIBLE). And he say -- he tells me they are not even giving

him treatment. You know, and he has been in there for seven, eight, nine, years now. And so you know, just going through the motions.

BANFIELD: It`s an important question because I think anyone who knows that a dangerous guy who is re-offending is going to be back out on the street,

doesn`t want to be on the street with which is not really a hypothetical. It`s really an honest question.

Would you like one of your best girlfriends, your mother, sister, niece to be on the same street and would you be crossing fingers and hope for the

best and be OK with that, Derek?

[19:30:00] LOGUE: Well, the thing about it is, you know, I don`t have any living family at this moment to deal with this hypothetical situation. But,

you know, to humor you for a minute, what if a murder moved down the street from me or somebody who smash a little lady upside the street. The thing

is, I`m not going to be told that this person killed 20 people or you know, robbed 30 old ladies. You know, we only do this with people who are

convicted of sex crimes and I think that`s problematic. You know what about the rest of them?

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HLN HOST: So let me bring in -- let me bring in Chris Donaghue on this one. He`s a sex therapist and clinical psychologist who

treats people with you know sexual proclivities that are illegal and dangerous.

CHRIS DONAGHUE, SEX THERAPIST: Right.

BANFIELD: How do you respond to Derek saying, well, murderers get released and dangerous criminals get released and how should the sex offenders be

any different even though they are treated differently?

DONAGHUE: This is completely different because we`re talking about someone who not only has a consistent history of sexual assault, it`s also someone

who has a primary sexual arousal to teenagers. That part will not go away. And so someone who has that kind of arousal and they are in treatment, and

after this length of time they are still saying and showing through their logs that they`re having deviant sexual thoughts, this is not someone who`s

done enough work on their sexuality in order for me to feel comfortable that they will be out in the world dealing with all the triggers and

(INAUDIBLE) situations appropriately.

BANFIELD: Yes, Chris, real quickly, do you get the notion that the primary therapist can say what she has said about Tom Duvall and yet, the -- I

think he`s the clinical director of the program that he`s in, says that he doesn`t know -- he doesn`t know that there`s deviant violent arousal with

this particular patient. Like they seem to have divergent opinions.

DONAGHUE: Yes, and it`s a -- it`s a watering down. When someone says it`s not -- it`s not illegal or crime to have a fantasy, that`s problematic.

That`s true. But again, when we`re talking about someone that has a history of impulse control, lacks empathy, and doesn`t have boundaries, then it

does become problematic. And again, these treatment centers, they sometimes operate on a really problematic continuum where they were -- they`re used

to hearing people that maybe are far worse and so they are more comfortable hearing certain things and taking that risk.

BANFIELD: This one -- this one seems to be the -- on the far worse part of the spectrum.

DONAGHUE: For sure.

BANFIELD: Let me bring in -- let me bring in Ashley Willcott on this. You are the welfare law specialist, you are the judge and the trial attorney,

you`re the person who`s going to get me off the legal ledge because I don`t understand two things. Why didn`t he get a life sentence to protect us all

for life so we don`t have to have this constitutional conundrum? And then, how is it he could be released when his primary therapist says it`s

problematic and others are weighing in saying it`s problematic? And the attorney general has already in 2014 blocked his release because he`s

dangerous.

ASHLEY WILLCOTT, CERTIFIED CHILD WELFARE LAW SPECIALIST: Right.

BANFIELD: How does it happen?

WILLCOTT: Here is where the disconnect is, in my opinion. I don`t think the panel got it right. So I think that they looked at what the therapist said

and thought, OK, he has successfully completed the sex offender treatment. Fine. That may be the case. But that does not mean that he should be

released. It does not mean that he will not re-offend. It does not mean that he does not pose a huge risk to society. The man is a beast based on

his actions, his diagnosis of a sexual sadist. So they got it wrong. And I think the disconnect between say the therapist and the actual agency that

wants to appeal is, OK, one of them can say yes, he`s completed our sex offender treatment successfully in our opinion. Well, that`s well and good.

But you still have to consider the risk to the people in the world --

BANFIELD: I believe that.

WILLCOTT: -- and the chance he`ll re-offend.

BANFIELD: I believe that.

WILLCOTT: He`s going to re-offend.

BANFIELD: I believe that. I believe that and I have to just, you know, give big props to everyone on my panel for your perspectives tonight. Chris

(INAUDIBLE), thank you for your reporting. Chris Donaghue, thank you for your expertise. Derek Logue, we butted heads a lot on this program and I

appreciate you being thoughtful about this segment and I do welcome you back at another time. And Ashley Willcott, thank you as well. I`m really

looking forward to see how this story turns out. I`d like to have you all back as well. Thank you, everybody.

A self-described friend of a Denver teenage found dead on a dairy farm speaks out about her case.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, do you know what happened to her?

SHAWN SCHWARTZ: No. Do you know who does?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tell me.

SCHWARTZ: How would I know? What happened to Natalie? What do you guys know?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Well, that is the million dollar question with this brown-eyed beauty, isn`t it? What happened to Natalie? What happened to Natalie and

why was she found dead at a dairy farm?

[19:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Natalie Bollinger was just 19 years old. An artist, according to her family who`d been drawing since she gets first hold of crayon. She was

also a dreamer who wanted to be a nurse. But Natalie Bollinger will never draw, will never dream again, because Natalie Bollinger went missing just

days after she filed a restraining order against an older man that she befriended. And nearly 24 hours after she vanished she was found but she

was dead. It was near a dairy farm, not far from her home.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is there an active threat to the community right now? Are you -- should people be worried at all since you haven`t found anyone

and there was a body that was found.

[19:40:03] SHERIFF MICHAEL MCINTOSH, ADAMS COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: You`re right. Yes, that`s a great question, too. I don`t believe that there is.

Through the investigation, through some of the leads that we`ve gone through, you know, I feel comfortable in saying that there`s not a threat

to the community.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you feel pretty close finding who is responsible for this?

MCINTOSH: I think that we are headed down there --down the right path, yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: But tonight no one has been arrested for Natalie`s death. No one has even been named as a suspect though police say they are convinced of

one thing, foul play.

Randy Corporon is the host on KNUS 710 in Denver. Randy, why should we not be worried and why did the police sound so convinced that they`re on the

right path yet they`re not naming anybody who is even on their radar?

RANDY CORPORON, HOST, 710 KNUS: That`s a great question, Ashleigh. I wondered why back on the day that Natalie went missing, within three hours,

the family was calling in and reporting her missing. She was a 19-year-old teenager. You wouldn`t think someone would be surprised that they are gone

for three hours during the day. Now, we have Mr. Schwartz who came back into the police radar last week when he was making some Facebook posts that

had the police concerned enough to do a welfare check. He became --

BANFIELD: OK, so let me -- let me take it from there. Hold on one sec, Randy. About Mr. Schwartz, since you mentioned him. Shawn Schwartz, 37-

years-old. Natalie Bollinger took a restraining order out against him, a protective order. And here`s what we know according to the court documents.

I want to be real clear about him. He`d been making some posts on Facebook that led the police to conduct that welfare check that you just mentioned.

He was allegedly crying to the police and saying that he wanted to talk to Natalie but couldn`t anymore because she was dead. Police, ultimately, took

him to the hospital and that`s where they allege that he became combative and violent and now, Shawn Schwartz is facing assault and resisting arrest.

We tried to reach him to get comment. He didn`t respond before air time. But just after his court appearance, he did talk to some reporters who were

walking out alongside him, and I want to play for our audience, if I can, what that repartee was like. Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCHWARTZ: I`ve been instructed not to speak to you all but I got a few more fingers for you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, do you know what happened to her?

SCHWARTZ: No. Do you know who does?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tell me.

SCHWARTZ: How would I know? What happened to Natalie? What do you guys know? All I know is from Facebook Messenger and I hate Facebook.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What did Facebook Messenger say?

SCHWARTZ: It doesn`t matter. You need to get a hold of the police and talk to them. Now, if you guys would like to (INAUDIBLE), you can go contact the

Broomfield Police Department and you ask them for whatever information that you feel is pertinent. However, my rights have been violated for the last

week and you guys are seriously all up in my bubble and freaking me out. You`re seriously giving me a panic attack. Well done, sir.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So, it`s important to reiterate here, Shawn Schwartz, who you just saw is -- has not been named a suspect in Natalie`s death or her

disappearance. Just because that she had a protective order against him in the weeks before she disappeared does not mean that he knows anything about

what happened to her.

It`s never good appearance, Joey Jackson, as a defense attorney, you struggle with that kind of thing, but if you look at it from the flip side,

if you wanted to do harm to Natalie Bollinger and you found out she had a protective order against someone else, isn`t that a good opportunity or am

I reaching?

JOEY JACKSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That is a great point. Well, listen, obviously, there`s a protective order because there`s something amiss in

that relationship, right. You don`t get protective orders unless there`s some fear, some concern. At the same time, in the event, someone else

wanted to do her harm and there`s an understanding that there`s a protective order against you, it would certainly present a great

opportunity to do that harm where all eyes would look to you and not them. So, it`s a good point, Ash.

BANFIELD: Well, we don`t know what scared this young woman so much that she took out that protective order against Shawn Schwartz but we`re going to

watch this story. And if the police are right and they say we don`t have anything to worry about, they`re on the right path, then watch this face

because we may have some news in the coming days.

There`s outrage tonight, a woman wearing only a hospital gown is put out on a cold Baltimore streets by the hospital where she was being treated. So

many questions. So many questions.

[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Most of us would agree at night, in winter, in the northeast, the temperatures are pretty routinely in the 30s. But there is nothing normal

or routine about a recent Facebook video of a woman being discharged from a Baltimore hospital wearing nothing but a hospital gown and socks. What is

even more infuriating is that she is just left standing at a bus stop, outside of the Baltimore hospital as four men, presumably security guards,

just walk off. I want to warn you that the video you`re about to see is difficult to watch not only because of what`s in it but because of the

questions that it raises about the events leading up to it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[19:50:08] IMAMU BARAKA: You`re just going to leave this lady out here with no clothes on?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Due to the circumstances of what it was.

BARAKA: So you only to call the police. So you all are just going to leave this lady out here like this. So, I`m assuming that you all are what the

security department? OK. Is there a supervisor available? So you all are OK with leaving that woman out there like that? Ladies and gentlemen, I`m at a

local hospital where individuals have left a patient half naked on the city streets. And it`s about 30 degrees out here right now and I am not sure why

this is even happening. But we`re going to find out.

Ma`am, are you OK? Are you OK? Are you unable to speak? Are you OK, ma`am? Do you need me to call the police? Why don`t you go and sit down, Ma`am?

You don`t look well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Just to remind you, the temperature is near freezing. You probably heard one of those security guards say that she was out there,

quote, due to the circumstances of what happened. But those circumstances still remain unclear to us tonight. The man who shot that video did call

for an ambulance. The ambulance picked the woman up, and she was taken right back inside that hospital just moments later. Just a short time ago

at a news conference, the head of the University of Maryland Medical Center where this happened said that this woman was not removed from the hospital

because she couldn`t pay.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. MOHAN SUNTHA, PRESIDENT AND CEO OF UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND MEDICAL CENTER: We believe firmly that we provided appropriate medical care to a

patient who came to us in need, but where we absolutely failed and where we own that failure is in the demonstration of basic humanity and compassion

as a patient was being discharged.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Defense Attorney Joey Jackson is with me now.

JACKSON: Wow.

BANFIELD: I don`t even know where to begin. I mean, maybe her care inside the hospital was adequate, but how does this happen? First of all, on a

human level. Second of all, on a logistics level.

JACKSON: 100 percent. And what trouble is -- even more troubling, I would guarantee that this is not the first such time that this occurred. Now,

this is the time that they were caught, and thank goodness, as you were saying, right, off camera, this bystander who took the time and the

opportunity to expose this and so we have to get to the bottom of it. There need to be protocols in place to ensure that people are not dropped out on

the street in gown, in freezing weather. And she could have befell even worse harm, right, at that time, if it weren`t for this bystander, has to

stop.

BANFIELD: Yes, thank god for -- I think his name is Mr. Baraka, thank God that he did show this in such a clear and concise way. Really appreciate

his work there and we hope that this doesn`t happen again. This could cost that hospital.

JACKSON: It should.

BANFIELD: It could cost them dearly financially if she`s capable of suing. Joey, thank you for that.

I want to talk a little bit about karma, bad karma. Cops say a Massachusetts woman skipped her mother`s funeral so that she could

allegedly head back to mom`s home and steal a safe with $90,000 worth of valuables in it. Seriously. The details are straight ahead.

[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: "ONE MORE THING" for you tonight. Last week, Alyce Davenport`s mother passed away. And that`s very sad. But instead of going to her mom`s

funeral, police say she decided instead to take a friend over to her mom`s house and rob it while everyone was at mom`s service. She and Diron Conyers

allegedly stole a safe from mom`s bedroom with about $90,000 worth of jewelry in it, coins and savings bonds and stocks. Family members

discovered the burglary when they returned to the home. Police were able to track down Davenport and Conyers and recovered the stolen property. Now,

they are both facing multiple charges including breaking and entering and larceny. Not to mention the whole moral thing.

[20:00:00] Thanks for watching, everybody. We`ll see you right back here Monday night, 6:00 Eastern for CRIME & JUSTICE. "FORENSIC FILES" begins

right now.

END