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Durbin Stands by Statement; Subpoena for Bannon; Trump Meeting with Kazakhstan's President; Trump Asked about Immigration Comment. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired January 16, 2018 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:20] JOHN KING, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to INSIDE POLITICS. I'm John King. Thank you for sharing your day with us.

Another day in court for President Trump's former campaign chairman and Russian meddling questions for former Trump adviser Steve Bannon, too, in his case up on Capitol Hill.

Plus, another boom day on Wall Street. The Dow cracks 26,000 for the first time as investors shrug off Washington's discord and dysfunction.

And, 84 hours and counting. The government runs out of money at midnight Friday. And the debate over a heated White House immigration meeting now a big roadblock to a spending compromise.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D), MINORITY WHIP: Is that their defense, that s- house is acceptable, s-hole, he would never say? Come on. To think that the president of the United States would refer to any country on earth as an s-house country, for goodness sakes, what does that say?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: We begin the hour with the big debate over just what the president said. There's no question what the president meant when he lashed out during an Oval Office immigration meeting the other day and no question the broad message he was trying to send. So, in some ways, the exact words really don't matter. But in other ways, they do matter, especially if you are a senator the White House is essentially now calling a liar.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D), MINORITY WHIP: I stand by every word I said. Senator Cotton and Senator Perdue should remember a word as gross as that in the course of a conversation with the president of the United States.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN: What do you think of the notion that they are, as you say, defending what the president said by leaning on the fact that he -- that they heard him say s-house as opposed to s-hole? DURBIN: This is the defense? The defense that instead of s-hole it was

s-house? That's the best they can come up with? I mean, it really tells the story. This was a horrible moment in the history of our country and in the history of the Oval Office and the White House. And they should, I think, honor that responsibility that they have as public officials to tell the truth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: That's Senator Dick Durbin a bit earlier exclusively talking to CNN's Jake Tapper. Senator Durbin also on the committee today as the president's secretary of homeland security, who was in that meeting, up before Congress. Senator Durbin had some questions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D), MINORITY WHIP: You said on Fox News that the president used strong language. What was that strong language?

KIRSTJEN NIELSEN, SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: Let's see, strong language, there was -- I -- apologies. I don't remember a specific word. What I was struck with, frankly, as I'm sure you were as well, was just the general profanity that was used in the room by almost everyone.

DURBIN: Did you hear me use profanity?

NIELSEN: No, sir. Neither did I.

DURBIN: Did you hear Senator Graham use profanity?

NIELSEN: I did hear tough language from Senator Graham, yes, sir.

DURBIN: What did he say?

NIELSEN: He used tough language. He was impassioned. I think he was feeling very strongly about the issue, as was everyone in the room. And to underscore a point, I think he was using some strong language.

DURBIN: Do you recall that the strong language he used repeated exactly what the president had said prior to that?

NIELSEN: I remember specific cuss words being used by a variety of members.

DURBIN: I'm -- I'm not going to ask you to say those words here, but I will just say for the record, Senator Graham spoke up in a way that I respect very much, countering what the president had said about countries in Africa, reminding the president that his family did not come to America with great skills or wealth, but they came here, as most families do, looking for a chance to prove themselves and make this a better nation. And a defensive Senator Graham, his strong words repeated exactly the words used by the president, which you cannot remember.

(END VIDEO CLIP) KING: I'm going to note for the record that hearing continues on Capitol Hill. Senator Lindsey Graham, Dick Durban was just talking about him, he's on that committee. We might take you back up there live when Senator Graham gets his chance to ask some questions.

With us today to share their reporting and their insights, Jackie Kucinich with "The Daily Beast," CNN's Phil Mattingly, Astead Hemdon with "The Boston Globe," and CNN's Sara Murray.

As I said at the beginning, in a way it is ridiculous that we have to parse exactly what the president said because what he meant is really what matters, that it was pretty clear, send me more white European immigrants. Please, let's not have immigrants from Haiti or Africa. A pretty simple conclusion what the president was trying to make. They're trying to say it was more -- he wanted to have it more as a conversation about merit based. There's a way to do that without calling African countries -- whether you call them s-holes or s- houses, you can do that in a different way.

Why does this matter? Now we have a confrontation, a cabinet secretary, two Republican senators essentially saying Dick Durbin (INAUDIBLE), Dick Durbin say, ah, no.

JACKIE KUCINICH, "THE DAILY BEAST": It used to be remarkable when senators called each other liars. That would have been a news cycle in and of itself. And right now we're seeing -- well, let me step -- let me back up. There is a reason why Senator Perdue and Senator Cotton are evolving on this, to use Senator Graham's word. They also have an immigration proposal. They -- that involves merit immigration. So there is -- and they want the president to side with them. They haven't said this, but you have to know, if they're defending the president, it's not out of the goodness of their hearts. There is a reason behind this.

[12:05:26] PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, look, I think that's probably the best explanation for what's actually happening right now. Senator Perdue and Senator Cotton are very much aligned with the president on this issue, or very much aligned with some of the president's senior advisers, some of the most strongest voices on this issue inside the White House and they know very well that there is currently a bipartisan proposal that's on the table. It's not supported by a broad swath of the Republican majority, but they don't want that proposal to have any life or any legs whatsoever.

It's why they were at that meeting in the first place. It's why they were called to that meeting. It's why they ensured that they had strong voices in that meeting. And it's why they are staying very close to the president now. They know that if the door opens for this and perhaps it gets forced onto the floor because the president decides that this is a deal that he wants to make, that they've got problems. This is something that could actually move, on a bipartisan basis if it ever got that opportunity. They want to make sure they snuff that out because they don't believe this is the type of restrictions in terms of immigration that should be part of any deal.

KUCINICH: And there's (INAUDIBLE) legal immigration. It's not just -- we're not just talking about illegal immigration. When you look at the Perdue/Cotton proposal, it's something entirely different. It takes it one step further.

KING: So just for our viewers, if you -- that picture we just showed you, President Trump greeting President Nursultan Nazarbayev of Kazakhstan at the White House. We may hear from the two leaders in a minute -- moments ahead. We'll bring you the tape of that when it happens.

But this is where -- forgive me, so, because we have our own immigration proposal, and we think it's better than the other guy's immigration proposal, we are going to cover for the president who says things that frankly embarrasses America on the world stage, that maybe opens some insight into a president who -- some say he's racist, others say at least he has a reflex to use race baiting language, racially tense language. And so we are willing to evolve our memories on a principle issue about the president's character because our -- we think our proposal's better than your proposal?

ASTEAD HEMDON, "THE BOSTON GLOBE": We've seen this playbook happen before. We have seen in other charged issues of the past, there has been people who have decide that they are speaking to that audience of one. That they'd rather, no matter the kind of flak that they will get for the issue, they're willing to speak to the president and stroke the ego or try to defend him in personal terms because they're looking to advance their political goals. But, as you say, that is coming at a real serious cost. There's people who are really hurt by this language, both domestically and abroad, and it is really striking that these senators would then decide, you know, even considering that issue, I'm willing to then advance my personal -- my personal (INAUDIBLE).

KING: And the language and how the president thinks, what the president thinks about people or about countries is the most important issue. Then there's the domino effect here in town about whether -- can you get anything done, or how does this complicate, you know, negotiations, whether it's over the spending, whether it's over ultimately some immigration compromise.

But, to me, those are almost side shows, even though the government runs out of money in four days or three days. It's a big deal. I'm not saying it's not a big deal. But when you talk about that, you're moving away from the idea that, why is the president's reflex to say, why can't we have more Norwegians and no Haitians or Africans?

SARA MURRAY, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, but I think that senators and lawmakers in Washington have fallen down on the opposite side of that, which is, this is the president we have. This is the guy who's in the Oval Office and so we have to find a way to work with him. So whether you're, you know, Phil Mattingly chasing people down on Capitol Hill every day and they're saying, oh, I haven't had a chance to see the president's Twitter feed, or their views are evolving in what he said in the Oval Office because you want to get an immigration deal done, look, this is where Republicans have largely come out on this issue. A number of them came out and they condemned the president's comments.

Some more harshly than others. But they've also been listening to this man make comments like this for over a year, for over, I think, two years at this point, and, you know, a lot of these guys voted for him anyway, in spite of previous race baiting comments and they encourage their constituents to vote for him. So they helped put this guy in the Oval Office and that's what they've got to work with.

KING: And so the president's personal conduct, personal character now again overwhelming. A conversation about a very important policy debate on which there are legitimate issues. We could have a debate about, should U.S. immigration policy be about the poor or the downtrodden, or should it be about merit based. What does the economy need? But if you're having that, the merit based, it should be, we need doctors or we need farm workers or we need radiologists. It shouldn't matter whether they're white or black or pink or purple, whether they come from Haiti or African or Norway or anywhere else. But that's not the way the president said.

And he's mad at Senator Durbin, tweeting out late yesterday, Senator Dickie Durbin -- you get a nickname from the president when you get in a fight with him. Senator Dickie Durbin totally misrepresented what was said at the DACA meeting. Deals can't get made when there is no trust. Durbin blew DACA and is hurting our military.

The president trying to blame Senator Durbin for this. Senator Durbin, in an exclusive interview with Jake Tapper, listen here saying, no, sorry, Mr. President, I stand by -- I remember very clearly what I heard and what it tells me about you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D), MINORITY WHIP: I will tell you that the comments that he made when I was in the White House I thought were vile, they were hate-filled and they were racial in tone. There's no question about it. You can't talk about s-hole countries in Africa and why don't we get more Norwegians and Europeans in the United States, without the inescapable conclusion that the president is raising race as an issue for immigration.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[12:10:20] MATTINGLY: So this is the -- kind of the key point from the meeting because that's just the general context, which is obviously very important. There was not a lot of trust to begin with on this issue. There was not a lot of trust on the Democratic side. And apparently there's not a lot of trust on the Republican side in terms of what Democratic goals are when it comes to immigration just in general. This blew whatever modicum of trust still existed completely out of the water and some was probably gained in that Tuesday meeting that was very public for all of us to see.

KING: One week ago today --

MATTINGLY: Just one week ago today.

KING: The president talked about an act of love.

MATTINGLY: And you can talk --

KING: The president talked about, you guys get together, send me something, I'll take the heat. We have come a long way from an act of love one week ago today to where we are now.

MATTINGLY: And it was an amazing thing. When those lawmakers were coming back to Capitol Hill -- and, look, this has been the case for three years when people talk to the president and decide to hear what they want to hear and move on from. You talk to a number of Democrats that legitimately who kind of quietly be like, I think he's with us on this. Like, I think he leans toward where we are on this actual issue, if you can keep him away from his advisers.

What became very clear is that's not even remotely the case on Thursday and the idea that there can be a legitimate debate between where Democrats are or where this bipartisan gang of six proposal is and where the president, Steven Miller, John Kelly are on this issue, specifically on the policy, no longer exists, at least at this point.

KUCINICH: What we've also found is the president actually cannot take the heat. He said, I will take the heat for any deal. I'll sign whatever you send me. He couldn't. He started hearing from his base, he started hearing from some of these advisers that don't agree with what he said, and he, you know, caved to that side, which is -- I mean those are who support him and got him elected. So --

HEMDON: I think it's also important to mention that he did not come out immediately when this reporting came out --

KUCINICH: Yes.

HEMDON: And deny what was happening that we saw until the next morning. It took until the next morning after the television shows he frequently watches in the morning were coming out on this issue. That's when we saw the tweets in which he denied in some vague terms what was said there. But immediately we have reporting that says that he -- they thought it would play well with the base. That --

MURRAY: Right. Not only did he not deny it, he was bragging about it to friends on the phone.

HEMDON: Right. Exactly.

KUCINICH: Right.

MURRAY: He clearly had no shame about the comments that he made until he watched the media coverage.

HEMDON: Exactly.

KING: Right. In addition to the -- what it's done to the debates here in town. And, again, to me, most importantly what it tells us more glaringly about the president is you have American ambassadors all around the world now being called into very tough meetings with heads of state or foreign ministers in other countries saying, could you please explain your president?

The break. We'll come back to this story in a bit though.

Up next, breaking news on the Russia probe. There's a report the special counsel has issued a subpoena for the former chief White House strategist Steve Bannon.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:16:48] KING: Welcome.

The president says what he calls the Russian collusion hoax is dead. Minutes ago, more proof it's anything but. "The New York Times" now reporting that special counsel has issued a subpoena for the former White House Chief Strategist Steven Bannon. That subpoena, "The Times" -- "New York Times" says issues last week.

Make no mistake, this is a huge development. The first time Special Counsel Robert Mueller's team has used a grand jury subpoena to compel information from a member of President Trump's inner circle.

Our justice correspondent Evan Perez joins us live now.

Evan, this is a big deal for the special counsel and a departure, is it not, from how he has worked with other top Trump officials?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Right, John. I think we -- from what we've seen in the past few months of this investigation, when they are trying to get an interview with someone who, as you said, is in the inner circle, someone close to the president, close to the White House, they've been voluntary interviews, or interviews where they have a conversation with the lawyers and then they bring them in and it is a voluntary interview.

And the way they've been doing this is the only time they're using subpoenas is when a witness will not come voluntarily. This is the way the special counsel has been operating since the appointment last May.

So what this tells us is that this is a witness that is, in some ways, a bit hostile to the investigation. And make no mistake, I think the Michael Wolff book and some of the comments that have been attributed to Steven Bannon are going to be a big part of the conversation when he goes in for his interview. I think the fact that he called the June 2016 Trump Tower meeting where Donald Trump Jr. had organized a meeting to get what he thought was going to be dirt on Hillary Clinton, and he called that -- Bannon called that treasonous is something that is a big deal and it's going to be brought up in Bannon's interview with the special counsel.

KING: Without a doubt.

And tell our viewers, those pictures you're seeing, Steve Bannon happens to be, by coincidence, testifying before the House Intelligence Committee today behind closed doors.

PEREZ: Right. KING: Those are the pictures you saw there.

Evan, before I let you go, you were in the courthouse today. It's not just Steve Bannon in the spotlight of the special counsel. The former campaign chairman, Paul Manafort, and his deputy, Rick Gates, back in federal court today. They, of course, have been indicted in this case. What's the headline?

PEREZ: Well, the headline is, John, that we're contemplating now a trial probably in September, maybe even October. So right in the middle of the 2018 midterms we're going to have the president's former campaign chairman, Paul Manafort, and his deputy, Rick Gates, are going to be going on trial at a courthouse just down the street here in Washington. And so all of the dirty laundry, all of the stuff that that case has to do with is going to be airing right in the middle of the campaign season. Obviously, it's not something that I think the president and his supporters really want, but in some ways maybe they do. I think they believe, as you've seen over the last few months, they believe this is a witch hunt. They believe that this entire case is something that has nothing to do with Russia. And so I think they might welcome to remind people what the special counsel has been up to over the past few months, John.

KING: Evan Perez, appreciate the reporting.

Let's bring the conversation in the room now. We'll get to the Manafort Gates thing in a minute.

But, if you're the president of the United States, Steve Bannon is right now behind closed doors on Capitol Hill. The House Intelligence Committee. Probably feel OK about that. It's run by Republicans. That has been the most defensive of the president, if you will. Most committee -- most unlikely to criticize the president.

[12:20:09] Steve Bannon now issued a subpoena by the Special Counsel Robert Mueller, told if you -- come in. We're going to put you before a grand jury. And as Evan noted, I'm just going to read you one quote from Steve Bannon in Michael Wolff's book, "Fire and Fury."

The three senior guys in the campaign thought it was a good idea to meet with a foreign government inside Trump Tower in the conference room on the 25th floor with no lawyers. They didn't have any lawyers. Even if you thought that this was not treasonous or unpatriotic or bad, expletive, and I happen to think it's all of that, you should have called the FBI immediately.

I guess one can understand why the special counsel might want to call in Steve Bannon. The issue -- the meeting he's talking about, for those of you who may have forgotten, June 2016, in Trump Tower, arranged by Donald Trump Jr., Manafort in the room, Jared Kushner in the room, meeting with Russian who have Kremlin connections who promised dirt on Hillary Clinton. The president says there was no collusion.

MURRAY: Yes, I mean, I think, look, Mueller's team is going to want to know what is behind those comments. I have to imagine if Steve Bannon has any knowledge that someone then went and shared the information from that meeting with Trump himself and what else he knew about the backdrop of that. I mean, obviously Bannon has been around for a lot of these various gyrations, whether it was what happened with Flynn and ultimately led to his firing. He was obviously working for the president when he fired James Comey, although he wasn't consulted on that decision based on our reporting of what was happening at that time.

A lot of the sort of turning points that we imagine that Mueller has been a focusing on, Steve Bannon was not necessarily in the center, but he was around. He was in the orbit. And there's certainly a lot of information that you can glean from him in that. I think the fact that he issued a subpoena, went to "The New York Times" to speak to him, I mean that's going to be jarring to people in the West Wing.

KING: Right, hardball. The special counsel has shown a veteran, proven, disciplined prosecutor that, if necessary, I'll use subpoena power. I will use hardball. The bail agreement with Gates and Manafort, limiting their movements. He's sending signals to people.

KUCINICH: Right. And I think to know how worried the White House is, we'll just have to see how many people start calling Steve Bannon a liar. That is one --

KING: They can't call him the coffee boy.

KUCINICH: They can't -- they can't -- well, they can't call him the coffee boy, so he must -- so something else has to be wrong, right? I mean the whole -- the president saying he lost his mind. That whole narrative. We'll see how much that starts emanating again out of the White House and, you know, perhaps from the president's Twitter feed. He's not really one to hide his feelings.

KING: Right. And -- please.

HEMDON: The broad view though is the White House that has wanted this special counsel investigation to go away has always signaled that they thought -- they thought it could be wrapping up. This is another instance in which this continues to drag on. Even the reporting that saying that Manafort and Gates will now push that trial back into September. We now know that this is going to stretch longer and longer, and that can't be good news for the president.

KING: And the subpoena to Bannon comes just after the president of the United States publicly flipped after saying last year, absolutely, I'll meet with Bob Mueller and answer any of his questions. The president now saying, I don't think there's any reason for that. There's a message being sent here.

MATTINGLY: Yes, and kind of poor timing in the sense that they just completely cast Bannon out of the orbit just a few weeks ago. Now you could make the argument, rightfully so, he's done what he said in the book and on the record, but maybe now this is a time where you would want him back under the umbrella. Now, look, he's said that he's obviously a supporter of the president, supporter of the president's agenda -- KING: Can I stop you one second. I need to get you to the White House.

President Trump and President Nazarbayev of Kazakhstan.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Thank you very much.

It's great to have the highly respected president of Kazakhstan with us. We have a tremendous relationship in terms of economics. A lot of goods are being produced from our country, meaning jobs. General Electric, Boeing. Tremendous amounts of money. Kazakhstan is doing very well. They're -- really, they've turned things around. They have a lot of advantages over some nations, frankly, and they have some tough situations, but the president is highly respected and has done a great, great job.

And it's an honor to be with you. We were together in Saudi Arabia, developed an immediate relationship, and it's really terrific what you've done. And thank you for being here.

PRES. NURSULTAN NAZARBAYEV, KAZAKHSTAN (through translator): First of all, Mr. President, thank you very much for your invitation. It's a great honor to be here, and I would like to start with congratulating you with a first anniversary in the office. And that year was very productive and you achieved a lot for your country.

[12:25:11] TRUMP: Thank you very much.

NAZARBAYEV (through translator): And I'm the first person from my part of the world to be received in the White House. It's a great honor. And Kazakhstan has always enjoyed a very good political relations. And we appreciate America's support for our independence and territorial integrity.

And for the 26 years of our independence, we have enjoyed a very good, strong, positive (ph) (INAUDIBLE) with your country (ph). We appreciate that very much.

And today's visit is a witness to that friendship and partnership.

And I'm looking to the fruitful discussion with you on the topics that are of mutual interest to our -- both countries.

And I do believe that after this visit the economic corporation within the two countries will grow even further.

And, once again, thank you for your hospitality and I wish you success.

TRUMP: Well, thank you very much.

And we've been talking a little bit about the economies and our economy. And as the president has already said and has said again and will say again, we have broken a lot of records. We're breaking another one today. The stock market is way up. Jobs are back. Black unemployment is the best it's ever been in recorded history. It's been fantastic. And it's the best number we've had with respect to black unemployment. We've never seen anything even close. So we're very honored by that.

And our country is doing very well. Economically, we've never had anything like it. I don't believe we've ever been in a position, and the president was so saying, we've never been in a position like we have. Many countries -- many companies are moving back from other countries where they left the United States, and they're now moving back into the United States. We had some big announcement recently with Chrysler going back to Michigan. We had Toyota coming in and it's going to build a massive plant. We have many, many companies coming in and they're building in the United States and that means jobs.

So, I appreciate all the nice things you've said, and I look forward to our luncheon. I look forward to our discussions.

And, with that, I just want to thank everybody for being here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, everyone. Thank you, (INAUDIBLE). Thank you.

QUESTION: Mr. President -- Mr. President -- Mr. President, did you say that you wanted more people to come in from Norway? Did you say that you wanted more people --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thanks, everyone. (INAUDIBLE). Thank you, (INAUDIBLE).

TRUMP: Thank you very much.

QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE) --

TRUMP: Thank you very much.

I want them to come in from everywhere. Everywhere. Thank you very much, everybody.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, Jim. Thank you, Jim. (INAUDIBLE). Thank you, everyone.

QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE) people come in from other parts of the world (INAUDIBLE) --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jim, thank you.

TRUMP: Out.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jim, thank you.

Thanks, everyone.

QUESTION: Mr. President, is there any Kazak (ph) money in Trump (INAUDIBLE)?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jen (ph), thank you. Jen (ph), we're exiting. Thank you, everyone. We're exiting.

TRUMP: No idea. Really no idea. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, thanks, everyone. Time to exit.

QUESTION: What about Steve Bannon talking to the special counsel?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jim, thank you. Everyone, please exit. Thank you.

KING: The president of the United States there in the Oval Office with the president of Kazakhstan.

At the end, I want them to come in from everywhere. Asked a question about immigration. The big debate at the moment, obviously, is did the president use the word shithole? Excuse me for those of you watching at home. Some people are trying to say, oh, no, he used the word s- house, not s-hole. Not quite sure the distinction of that to describe African nations, saying why are we inviting people from those s-hole nations into the United States. At the end there he says he wants people to come in from everywhere.

Obviously the president doesn't want to prolong a political controversy or add more to it, so smart politics to a degree. But isn't it also one of the issues here in that one of the problems, whether you're the Democrat or the Republican, just trying to figure out just where the president is on any given day. We were talking earlier, it was one week ago today he talked about, we need an act of love that protects the dreamers. And if after you pass that, if you want to pass comprehensive immigration reform, to let all of the undocumented stay in the United States, I'll take the heat. I'll sign it. You send it to me.

That was the president one week ago today. Then we got to rejecting a deal that essentially met the standards he laid out at that Tuesday meeting. And in that meeting using the s-hole comments to this. Where are we?

KUCINICH: Where are we? It is a really good question.

KING: Yes.

KUCINICH: Because I don't know the answer to that. We're in a really big mess where the government's probably going to shut down because now this DACA deal that looked like it was getting traction as of last week is now, I think, and, Phil, you probably know better than I would, doesn't seem like it's going to go anywhere. And so where do they go from here? It seems like they're headed -- and Democrats don't seem like they're going to move because they're angry.

[12:30:01] MATTINGLY: Look, there's value to looking at who's around the president, who the president listens to, who the key voices are on this issue inside the administration.