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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield

Ansari`s Date Went Bad; Reporter Going After Anchor`s Aura; Malnourished Children Rescued by Police. Aired 6-8p ET

Aired January 16, 2018 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

[18:00:00] S.E. CUPP, HOST, HLN: OK. That`s it for us. Crime and Justice with Ashleigh Banfield is up next.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HOST, HLN: Good evening. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. It`s six o`clock Eastern. And these are your headlines tonight.

Four officers in South Carolina are in the hospital after being shot by a domestic violence suspect early this morning. That suspect fled on foot

from a home where someone said a man was hitting a woman last night, and tonight one of those officers is in critical condition. The suspected

gunman also in the hospital.

Media site the Rap is reporting that same O.J. prosecutor Marcia Clark found some explosive evidence in the Casey Anthony case determining that

Casey was the one who searched full proof suffocation on her computer just hours before her daughter went missing. Thanks to a mistaken time stamping,

time stamping.

Clark claims that the search happened when Casey`s dad was at work making Casey the only person at home where the computer was. And where did Clark

find this all of this evidence? In the book written by Casey`s own attorney.

CNN and other media outlets now have access to FBI documents that could shed light on how and why a gunman in Las Vegas took the lives of 58 people

this October. Recent search warrant affidavits showing mysterious e-mail exchanges about guns or ammunitions before the attack. Though,

investigators continue to insist Stephen Paddock acted alone.

In the meantime, the criminal sentencing continues for the former USA Gymnastics doctor accused of sexually abusing more than 140 young athletes.

A judge is allowing for every single one of Larry Nassar`s victims to speak directly to him in court. Kylie Stevens or Kyle Stevens telling him today,

quote, "Little girls don`t stay little forever. They grow into strong women that return to destroy your world."

And tonight, we begin with the Aziz Ansari backlash. I`m going to be honest here. I wasn`t entirely certain that I was going to be back on the air with

you tonight because of what I had to say about him and about his accuser. About him, not as a comedian, not as an actor or an author but as a date.

Something everybody now knows about or thinks they know about. Thanks to a 23-year-old photographer who told an online publication that her sexual

encounter with Aziz Ansari was the worst night of her life.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Comedian Aziz Ansari is just the latest celeb to be accused of, I`m not exactly sure.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sexual misconduct on a date.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Worse night of her life.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pushing back against allegations of sexual misconduct.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Responded to a woman`s published story that he coerced her.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: HLN`s Ashleigh Banfield slammed the anonymous woman. Blasted all over the internet and by our own Ashleigh Banfield.

BANFIELD: You went to the press with a story of a bad date. You did not get up and leave right away. That is on you. What exactly was your beef? You

looked that gift horse in the mouth and chiseled away at that powerful movement with your public accusation. You stand up sooner. You smooth out

your dress and you bloody well leave.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Tonight I stand by what I said. And I am surprised. I am pleasantly surprised to report that I am not alone in saying that this

anonymous woman is hurting rather than helping the Me Too and Time`s Up movement. Because something seems to have changed overnight. And the real

conversation is happening it seems to me at least, about consent.

And women`s empowerment and sexual harassment in the heat of the hook up. Including the very reporter who gave this young woman such a podium which

became such a dangerous weapon. Babe reporter Katie Way speaking out this morning on CBS this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KATIE WAY, STAFF WRITER, BABE: Something that I found very striking was how quickly the encounter escalated. She was not interested in having sexual

intercourse with Ansari and he continued to press her despite repeatedly acknowledging the fact that she was not comfortable.

And just because something is normal doesn`t mean it`s OK. Just because something happens a lot, doesn`t mean it should ever happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So that reporter making these comments before all of this blue up. And with me tonight to talk about that big blew up CNN senior media

correspondent, Brian Stelter. He`s the host of reliable Sources. Heather Mac Donald, she is Manhattan Institute fellow. Also relationship in dating

expert, Charles Orlando is with us, and defense attorney Janet Johnson is with us as well.

Brian Stelter, I just want to start with you since you watch the media and you often have your finger on the pulpit with the media means to the site

guys, probably the culture where America`s pendulum is swinging. Give me -- give me of your assessment of where we are today?

[18:05:00] BRIAN STELTER, SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT, CNN: I`ve spoken with the publisher of article on Babe.net as most people have not heard of

before this erupted. They are standing by the story. They are proud they published it. They said they would do it again in a heartbeat. They feel

they need to jump start a conversation and they`ve done that about the difference between what is clearly a problem in our society, assault that

happens. And we`ve seen it covered by reporters in the past few months.

That is one thing. What happened to this woman is a different thing. Still a problem, however. What happens on this date, this date gone wrong, the

way she was manipulated, the way she was pursued by Aziz Ansari. It`s relatable. You know, you describe how many women can relate to this story.

And as Katie, the reporter doesn`t make it right.

So I think that`s what babe was trying to say. They are proud of the story. By the way, it`s gotten them millions of page views. They like that as

well.

BANFIELD: So I want to be really clear. You spoke with the editor. The reporter who wielded those very powerful words sent some choice words my

way as well.

STELTER: I`m curious about that. What did she say?

BANFIELD: So, and I want to share this because I think this gives us an insight into the caliber of the person who held that nuclear weapon that

was wielded on Ansari`s career. The caliber of this 22-year-old young woman. And I`m only going to read a slight part of her comments to me.

And I assume she fashioned herself a feminist in this movement. "Ashleigh, someone who I`m certain no one under the age of 45 has ever heard of, I

hope the 500 re-tweets on the single news write up made that burgundy lipstick, bad highlights, second wave feminist has been really relevant for

a little while." That`s from Katie Way who was CNS this morning, yesterday morning.

And I think the reason I want to share that is because if you truly believe in the Me Too movement, if you truly in women`s rights, if you truly

believe in feminism, the last thing you should do is attack someone in an ad hominine way for her age. I`m 50. And for my highlights. I was brown

hair for a while when I was a war correspondent interviewing Yasser Arafat and in Afghanistan and Iraq, Gaza, and the West Bank. Google those places.

That is not the way we have this conversation as women or men. We don`t attack, as journalists, let`s be frank.

STELTER: Right.

BANFIELD: We do not attack people for their age or their highlights or their lipstick because it is the most hypocritical thing, a woman who says

she supports the woman`s movement could ever do. And that`s the caliber of the woman who was given all of this power and was able to wield this power.

The reason I sort of go on is diatribe is because I want to make sure that we are all clear. Caveat emptor applies. When you read what`s on the

interwebs, caveat emptor applies.

Let`s get your thoughts on this, Heather.

HEATHER MAC DONALD, FELLOW, MANHATTAN INSTITUTE: Well, I think this is a truly clarifying. We hear, see here just an amazing outbreak of sort of

female cat fightery that cannot be repressed. But what this really shows us is what -- the so called date between Aziz and Grace is what sexual

liberation has given us which has been to destroy the traditional norms around sex.

So it was actually kind of a normal date and that it went immediately to oral sex. That was considered frankly pretty routine. And the default now

for premarital sex in a very casual encounter is yes. And it turns out that females are hard placed to say no in those situations.

The story reported that she kind of felt she was maybe sending nonverbal cues and then she claims have sent some maybe verbal cues. But she found it

difficult, uncomfortable and embarrassing to extricate herself from that situation. And that`s going to be the case many, many times when females

are forced into a situation of going mano-a-mano with the male libido with no norms of male gentlemanliness or (Inaudible) he acted aggressively and

boorishly.

But frankly, according to the common Morris (Ph), you go for sex immediately. And she did not have the self-confidence to be able to name

what was going on and as you rightly suggested, Ashleigh, just say I`m out of here. And this is going to be a situation, an ambiguous situation that

is going to be harder and harder for females to get out of.

BANFIELD: You know, I`m glad you brought that up. And Janet Johnson, I want to get you in on this conversation as well. Because when I was growing up I

remember this, and I bring this up all the time. Because it still makes my blood boil back from the 70s that it still gets me.

She was wearing a mini skirt at the bus stop.

JANET JOHNSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right.

[18:09:54] BANFIELD: She was asking for it. That`s appalling.

JOHNSON: Right.

BANFIELD: And I don`t like anybody who has weighed on this story saying, look, she went back to his apartment. We should be free to go back to

anybody`s apartment and not risking raped or sexually assaulted or molested or any of those things.

Where I take huge issue with this is and this is her description, not mine. She was naked for a half hour through a number of different locations. She

even needed a break. Five minutes in the bathroom to collect herself, splash water on her face and then when she emerged, the choice at that time

was not to put clothes on and say this isn`t working for me. I need to leave.

The choice was to ask him to chill on the couch naked. And then the action that came from Aziz Ansari, if you believe her account, was him pointing to

his genitals and her account is that she went ahead and engaged.

Where in this scenario could any potential crime actually emerge? Any potential sexual assault. Because I know people are saying what happened to

her could amount to a crime.

JOHNSON: Right. Well, I mean, it could be battery, Ashleigh. I mean, just touching somebody without their consent is a crime. I mean, it`s a

misdemeanor. It`s not sexual assault. It could be a (Inaudible) battery. She describe him touching her first without her consent.

But you know, I think the important thing is I`m your age, Ashleigh. It used to be that you know, you had to say no and there were laws that said

you had to fight the man off. And thank God we`re not at that point anymore. You have to say yes. You have to consent. And you know, she didn`t

go out there and say this is the same as Harvey Weinstein.

I don`t think, you know, the burden isn`t on her. She told her story and to her credit she told it accurately. She didn`t embellish, she didn`t talk

about, you know, he raped me. She said this is what happened.

And the nuance is up for us to get to sift through. Obviously, the journalist, based on what you said earlier, got it wrong and got it

horribly wrong. And that is not a person who, you know, if they want to report anonymous people`s claim, I mean, all we know is Grace. We don`t

know her full name. You know, that name a story that doesn`t even get reported. You know, Babe.net, obviously isn`t CNN or HLN.

BANFIELD: It will not have been reported on this network I will be completely.

JOHNSON: Right.

BANFIELD: I will be crystal clear. That would not have made it with an arm`s length of our neighborhood.

JOHNSON: Sure.

BANFIELD: On this network or on CNN as well. And a lot of that has to do with knowing your audience and knowing the environment. Because throwing

those kinds of flaming arrows out into this environment which is filled with gas is different say this month than it would have been this summer.

STELTER: Yes. But this is not -- but this is not a career ender for Aziz Ansari. I think he is going to be just fine because people are able to see

the difference between a New York Times investigation finding a dozen accusers versus a single woman`s account. And isn`t there room at this Me

Too movement -- at this Me Too moment in time to have a conversation about awkward sexual encounters that are not assault.

BANFIELD: Right.

STELTER: There should be room for that conversation too. Look, I`m happily married and I don`t have to deal this anymore, but I think a lot of people

that are ten years younger than me are having these awkward experiences and need to figure out ways to talk about them.

BANFIELD: Charles Orlando, I want you to hopscotch on that but also bring in what Heather said earlier. That in today`s dating culture it is normal

to hook up pretty fast. And so how is this young woman supposed to, I`m going to ask a twofold question. How is she not supposed to know that this

is kind of where it`s going to go unless you make an effort for it not to go there or how is she supposed to come out and say just because it`s

normal doesn`t make it right. How is the man supposed to know what normal is, what not normal is what will be career ending would be?

CHARLES ORLANDO, RELATIONSHIP & DATING EXPERT: Well, normal is really how you feel. Excuse me. Normal is how she feels. If she went into his

apartment which she says she did and they both disrobed and ready to have sex, and she automatically changes her mind. She has that right to change

her mind. But she has agency. She can get on her feet and walk out of the house.

He wasn`t stopping her, holding her. Was he a little too aggressive, potentially. But that doesn`t mean that it equates to assault. This is man

who is in a room with a woman that he wants to have sex with.

So, we do -- we do live in a culture of very fast hook ups, for sure. But that doesn`t mean that she doesn`t have her own rights and her own wants

and needs put to the top. She just have to have a voice. And if she chooses not to have a voice, I`m sorry, but she has that accountability.

This is not an attachment to the Me Too movement and the fact that reporter did that, cheapens the entire -- the entire movement as a whole. This is

not Rose McGowan. This is a bad date. Aziz had no power over her career. She had no power over where she would leave. He didn`t have a gun to her

head. He wasn`t hurting her. There wasn`t anything that happened. She had a right to stand up and she didn`t.

BANFIELD: Yes. Her comments were gas lighting. Honestly her comments publicly meant lighting for his career. Heather, go ahead.

[18:15:00] MAC DONALD: Ashleigh, this isn`t definitely -- it`s not case of sexual harassment. However, it is part of a pattern. Last month the New

York Times gender editor wrote a column about a sexual encounter she had at age 19 with a 30-year-old man that she didn`t really want to get involved

with but she found it too difficult to say no.

And a previous web site reported on girls that have sex because it`s too hard to make an argument with the guy against it. And again, this proves

what happens with the default now as, yes, for premarital sex for girls. There`s going to be situations where females simply find it difficult to

name what`s going on and afterwards they do feel this is the worst night of my life.

They feel taken advantage of because sex is the realm of the irrational, the chthonic, the ambiguous. There`s taboos around it. And I think we are

fooling ourselves if we think we can come up with highly legalistic rules that we see. Colleges now are drafting consent rules that look like a

mortgage contract.

BANFIELD: So what`s the -- what`s the answer here because I can sense when you`re saying...

(CROSSTALK)

MAC DONALD: The consent is just for norms.

BANFIELD: ... when you`re saying women find it embarrassing and difficult to stop the momentum of something they`re not enjoying.

MAC DONALD: Yes.

BANFIELD: That`s terrible and that`s on us as parents to teach our children what healthy sex is, right. So for those who miss that lesson, should the

guy be punished because there`s no signal in that?

MAC DONALD: No, I think the solution is that we need to go back to norms that recognize that males and females are fundamentally different. They are

biologically different. Their libidos are different. And we traditionally set up a default of no for premarital sex just because it is difficult for

females in that realm of ambiguity and seduction to say no.

BANFIELD: So, Janet, Janet, I want you to jump in on this. Because my first thought is it`s very unsexy to have to have sort of a verbal contract with

someone during a hook up.

JOHNSON: Yes.

BANFIELD: I`m not too old to know that.

JOHNSON: Well, I mean, but you`re talking about is it going to be a crime or not. And probably it`s not going to be a crime. But, I mean, are we

really at the point where if a woman is in the room with man, even if she`s never close on, she is at just basically acquiescing that she`s going to

have sex with that man.

I mean, we don`t have to go back to another era. What we have to do is to go forward to the point where it`s not that hard to get consent. Is it that

hard for a woman to say, yes, I would like to, you know, have oral sex with you, which is ultimately what he sort of kind of force started in a way. He

didn`t physically force her but she has to leave a room not to have oral sex with a man. I don`t think that`s a burden we should put on that woman.

(CROSSTALK)

MAC DONALD: It is hard. It is hard.

STELTER: Part of the answer is to talk more about this. I hear what you`re saying about this in the values. But to the extent that we can talk more

about what good sex looks like and what good sex means, right. That that would avoid some of these bad dates.

MAC DONALD: How about we be a little more modest when it comes to sex. The fact to the matter is you cannot remove the aura of difficulty and mystery,

embarrassment, shame, elation around sex. You just cannot. And to say we`re going to go through a little affirmative consent list I think is wildly

naive.

JOHNSON: It wasn`t a list. It`s just the word yes.

(CROSSTALK)

ORLANDO: Let me just jump in and say I think we are in place where men need to be taught that it`s not OK to just move ahead with subtle cues.

Absolutely. But women have a voice. Not only should we be teaching men to check in and get actual consent but women where is your self-esteem to

stand up and say absolutely not, like I`m not into this. I`ve got to go.

And anything past that point and of course is a crime, that is assault. But it`s up to parents and women to step up as all these women in the Me Too

movement have done and come up to the plate and stood up for themselves and for each other and say no.

BANFIELD: You`re right. You know, I will add to that that this young women who said she gave plenty of nonverbal cues, I would say she gave one really

big nonverbal cue to the opposite and that was staying naked and canoodling on the couch...

ORLANDO: Right.

BANFIELD: ... after an extremely uncomfortable encounter. If you want to give the nonverbal cues, that`s not the one. And while we`re at it, I just

really want to add here, I`m a huge proponent -- and I`m just going to go real deep on this for a minute.

I am huge proponent of the Me Too movement and the Time`s Up movement. I am so supportive of it because I am benefitting from it. I have worked 30

years, much of it trying it seems some of this sludge and so to see this happening is like a rainbow.

But to see what Grace has done, to me was like taking a pick ax to that rainbow. And this is a rainbow she is going to be walking on I dare say for

the next for 40 to 50 years if she has a nice long career at the right young age of 23. And I hope she thinks long and hard and everyone out

there, too, including this writer who decides that my lipstick and my highlights aren`t up to the, you know, or maybe aren`t up to the task of

delivering this message.

[18:20:07] Think long and hard about what it means to be 22 and what this movement has done for you.

My guests, thank you, all. I so appreciate it. I have another story I have to bring you. Some details tonight about that home in California where

police say they rescued 13 brothers and sisters. The siblings were malnourished. Some of them even shackled. So this picture defies logic.

These parents are now charged with torture. What we`re learning from their neighbors about what may have been going on behind these happy pictures.

[18:25:00](COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Ask anyone and their wedding pictures will show the happiest times of their lives like one couple in California who renewed their vows

three times over the years surrounded by all 13 of their children.

In a uniquely strange celebration with Elvis standing in as an officiate in Vegas.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

BANFIELD: But when that family got home from the celebration, the smiles and the dancing disappeared because officials are just learning from a

teenage daughter who escaped a window of that house that the other kids were all being held captive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GREG FELLOWS, CAPTAIN, RIVERSIDE COUNTY SHERIFF`S DEPARTMENT: On Sunday, January 14th, 2018 just before 6 o`clock in the morning, a 17-year-old girl

called 911 from a deactivated cell phone and reported that her siblings were being held against their will and some were chained.

Deputies responded, met with that 17-year-old nearby and she explained that she had escaped through a window from that residence. The 17-year-old also

showed some photos that led the deputies to believe that the information she was provided was accurate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Police say they found 12 other kids in that house ranging in age from 2 all the way up to age 29 in conditions that no human being should

have to experience.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FELLOWS: Deputies when they arrived inside the house, they noticed that the children were malnourished. It was very dirty and the conditions were

horrific.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: At least three of the children were found chained to furniture. Apparently, their ages were so difficult to determine because of the

alleged abuse including the 17-year-old sister who managed to save her siblings.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FELLOWS: If you can imagine being 17 years old and appearing to be a 10- year-old, being chained to a bed, being malnourished and injuries associated with that. I would call that torture.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Well, that`s the charge that David and Louise Turpin are facing, torture and you can add to that child endangerment, too. And their bail has

been set at a whopping, $9 million.

CNN correspondent Dan Simon is live in Perris, Californian tonight in front of this family`s home. Dan, on the surface this story just doesn`t mean

real. It is so hard to digest that this is possible especially given the photos and the video that show such a happy family. What am I missing?

DAN SIMON, CORRESPONDENT, CNN: You know, that`s what everybody is asking, Ashleigh. You know, you talk to the neighbors they didn`t really see

anything amiss. Although looking back some realize that there were some oddities. You know, for instance, the children appeared to be very pale, it

looks like they hadn`t spent much time outdoors, and they were also very intensely private.

And so, you know, authorities are obviously going to be trying to ascertain what was going on in the parents` life to, you know, make them think that

this kind of behavior this kind of parenting was OK. Right now they`re really not giving us any answers, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: And Dan, is it true these are all their biological children and the pictures certainly seem to indicate that they took them to Disney Land

on a regular basis. Maybe Disney World but that they were regular travelers and by some accounts, even had, you know, $10,000 worth of annual passes to

Disney World.

SIMON: That`s right.

BANFIELD: How is there`s such (Inaudible) between these photos and the reality that the officials found in their home.

BANFIELD: Great question. You know, they did go to Disneyland. They went to Las Vegas several times. Apparently, some of the children even had cars.

You know, I`m standing in the driveway here and you see three fairly new Volkswagen vehicles. There`s also a large van in the driveway in this

house, you know, from all appearances, at least on the outside, it appears to be a nice house.

We do know that the father was employed. He was actually an engineer at Northrop Grumman, you know, the space engineering firm. And so, he actually

pulled in a pretty good living $140,000 a year. But when you have that many children, obviously, there is going to be financial difficulties.

[18:30:07] We do know that a few years back he did declare bankruptcy and the family did have a lot of debt.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, PRIMETIME JUSTICE SHOW HOST: It`s unbelievable. All that debt and bankruptcy yet $10,000 per year for these Disney passes for all of

those 13 children and all of those matching outfits in so many of those different events.

I want to play if I can for a moment Captain Greg Fellows who really characterizes what the mother`s reaction was upon finding out effectively

the gig is up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GREG FELLOWS, CAPTAIN, RIVERSIDE COUNTY SHERIFF`S DEPARTMENT: It seemed that the mother was perplexed as to why we were at their residence. We had

no prior contacts at that residence regarding any allegations of child abuse or neglect.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So, regarding the child abuse and neglect, the torture that`s referred to other than children being chained to furniture, also, you know,

aligned with what the authorities said was years and years of malnourishment because of the size and development of these children.

And when you hear this, you will shake your head. Mark Uffer is the CEO of Corona Regional Medical Center and he described the biological age of these

children and the apparent age of these children. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK UFFER, CEO, CORONA REGIONAL MEDICAL CENTER: We have seven of the adults. It`s hard to think of them as adults when you first see them

because they are small and it`s clear there is malnutrition.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: And that aligns perfectly with what the neighbors saw. The neighbors had a visceral reaction. I mean, those pictures, if you see those

homes, they look so normal. Everything looks, I mean, it almost looks (INAUDIBLE). It`s incredible to think that something was amiss in that

seemingly perfect house. Here is what the neighbors described.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So sad. So horrible. I can`t believe this. I can`t believe this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s heartbreaking and to -- now to know that there was that much kids in there and not even know about it then. It`s like I

wish there was something this community could have done.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The older kids, I thought they were like 12 because they looked so malnourished, so pale. So because of that, I thought that

they were much younger than what they were.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I want to bring in Joseph Scott Morgan. He is a professor of applied forensics at Jacksonville State University and a certified death

investigator as well.

Joe, the descriptions that not only the medical professionals but the neighbors who are witnesses have given all align, these children looks so

much younger than they were.

What does that mean in terms of the pain and suffering, the torturing, the malnourishment they endured and for how long?

JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR, PROFESSOR OF APPLIED FORENSICS AT JACKSONVILLE STATE UNIVERSITY: Yes, it`s important that we

apply a specific term to this, Ashleigh. They put out the term malnourishment along with torture. I think a keyword here is deprivation.

This idea that these children have been deprived of a reasonable area to live in, to exist in, and that goes to things like food, nutrition,

probably overall medical care, the ability to just move and exercise.

And these are going to be major sources for evidence going forward in this case. This is in fact an evidence-rich environment. And there`s going be

two things they are going to be looking at moving forward.

The most importantly is establishing a time line. This is not something that happens overnight. This has been an ongoing thing. Those of us who

have children, you know that you go and visit the doctor with your kids and they put the kids -- they give you an idea of where a child should be

developmentally.

That is going to play a key as well. Then we go to the home and we begin to look at things. I`ve heard terms like shackles, restraints, tied to bed,

tied to tables, all kinds of horrific things.

BANFIELD: At least three of them. At least three of them, Joe, were chained to furniture.

MORGAN: Right.

BANFIELD: A couple of things I just want to make sure people realize. The home was registered as a private school. The father was listed as the

principal. The paternal grandparents are shocked. They said they had no idea about all of this. The adult kids right now are all together at a

hospital being treated. The juveniles also all -- all 13 are being treated at a hospital.

I do want to actually bring in Margie Mow for a moment here, defense attorney. The fact that there are all of these horrifying allegations, will

these children need to testify against their parents or can a case be mounted against them with just the empirical material before them to secure

a prosecution?

[18:35:00] MARGIE MOW, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It depends whether or not the case goes to trial or a plea is negotiated. If it goes to trial, then they will

be required to testify. There`s a lot of unknown facts. What -- they essentially moved from Texas. Did something change when they moved from

Texas? Obviously, all these children have been deprived for many, many years which is why they are so petite.

But they go out in public and they seem fairly happy. They seem fairly normal. To the naked eye, you cannot tell that there`s adults in these

groups because they are so small. So, there`s a lot of unanswered questions that I think we do need to hear from at least some of the children to find

out how long this has been going on.

BANFIELD: Well, at least, in the investigative process because if you want to plea bargain you have to have the goods as well. Thank you so much,

Margie. I`m going to ask you to stick around. Joseph Scott Morgan, thank you as well.

This should have been one of the happiest times of her life, but this 18- year-old, beautiful 18-year-old bride, is not celebrating her recent marriage. Instead her family is planning something quite different, her

funeral.

And now police are planning something else. An investigation into a mystery. And the autopsy that just yielded results a few hours ago may hold

a massive clue.

[18:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: On a Saturday afternoon, teenagers typically head to the mall or hit the movie theater, but not Anna Edgeton. She was already married at the

age of 18 and her bridal pictures are beautiful.

She also took up residence with her husband in an apartment in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. That was at least until this Saturday because that apartment

is the very place that Anna was found dead, after she reportedly did not show up for work.

The police have been uniquely tight lipped about Anna`s case for days. About the details of Anna`s death. But tonight, we are finding out

something important, and that is how she died. The autopsy concluded just before we got to air and the results are in.

Ana was shot. And the death that police first called suspicious, well, that is being re-characterized. It`s now officially being called a homicide. I

just want to start with Justin Roberts because he`s a host for News Radio 600 WMT in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. Perhaps, Justin, you can shed a little more

light, because it seems to me that is one hell of a mystery and there are very few answers that are forthcoming. Any idea why?

JUSTIN ROBERTS, HOST, NEWS RADIO 600 WMT (via telephone): Good evening, Ashleigh. It`s such an odd case. Every once in a while, you hear a case

like this where there`s somebody who has been found dead. Then you find out a couple days later, wait a minute, this isn`t what it seems. This is now a

homicide.

We got that report you just mentioned to coming out of break about now it`s a gunshot. Now what has this community up in arms is because here is an 18-

year-old, just married, just starting her adult life.

The reason the police went there was she hadn`t been to work in a couple of days. Sounds like an 18-year-old that got it all together, got a career

figured out, she graduated high school early and then this happened. It cut down right in the prime of you`re starting your own adulthood life.

BANFIELD: So, here is what we are trying to figure out. The husband, we know nothing about. The police aren`t answering our questions. He`s not

charged at this point. They are not calling him a suspect at this point. There`s an investigation but they`re not saying if he`s around. That`s

weird.

Maybe we`ll get more information soon but I do want to do one thing if I can because often times when you don`t get a lot of information, you go to

the social media and you try to figure out some clues on what led up to all of this. All I can tell you is a little bit about her Instagram before she

died. About a month after she was married.

This was last September. This is what she posted. Looks like a really nice family life. Nice to be off work. Just at home cooking for the husband.

Later that month, she posted another Instagram. And look at this. A beautiful car with a bow on it. Look what she posted. The new whip is

driving good. Smiley icon.

(LAUGHTER)

BANFIELD: Next up after that, in October, apparently a wonderful trip to the zoo. This just looks all so happy and healthy. She says, zoo was lit.

Ha-ha. For those of you who don`t know, that`s a good thing, the zoo was great.

(LAUGHTER)

BANFIELD: And then her last Instagram post in December. She appears to be with a pet of some kind, maybe an iguana that`s sort of crawling up her

body towards the nape of her neck right up on her shoulder where her hair is. Her post is, he`s ready to sleep.

Now, if that were any 18-year-old, I would say that`s a well- adjusted, happy 18-year-old, who is living a pretty full and rewarding life. Is there

anything else that I haven`t found that might give them some more investigative power?

ROBERTS (via telephone): You know, I did the same thing. We all want to get it. We don`t the answer. I saw the same pictures you did. You try to find

the husband.

[18:45:00] And it`s dark. There`s nothing going on. There`s no post there. There`s a few posts back and forth between husband and wife. There`s the

engagement photos. We`re so excited to be married, but that`s it. There`s nothing more after that.

BANFIELD: OK. I want to bring in former FBI agent and investigator Steve Moore because if we`re stymied by this, I know you have the magical bag of

tricks. Law enforcement knows where to go and what to do in an instance like this. And they don`t need to tell us anything. What do you think they

are doing? Where do you think they are looking?

STEVE MOORE, FORMER FBI AGENT AND INVESTIGATOR: Well, I think they are looking at the husband because if she -- you go to a welfare check. That

happens a lot, it`s no big surprise. You find her dead, that is a big surprise.

The problem with the welfare check is it wasn`t called in by the husband. And she had missed work for more than a day by my understanding. So in all

that time, the husband didn`t have any concern about his wife being missing or didn`t even wonder about her. So that right away is a big problem.

BANFIELD: And Steve, the only thing that we can tell you from the autopsy, this is the newest and most breaking information on the case is that she

died from gunshot wounds. A gunshot wound is not subtle. When you walk into that welfare check, you know damn well what you have on your hands.

And yet, it was a suspicious death. Now it`s a homicide. Why is that a gunshot wound being released publicly would change it publicly to a

homicide? It was clear from the beginning, wasn`t it?

MOORE: Yes, it was. And you can tell and you`ve already spoken about the fact that Cedar Rapids is really holding the cards close to their chest on

this one. First of all, you are going to -- if the gun is not right next to the body, then you know it`s a homicide, somebody shot them.

The other thing is guns are used quite frequently in homes when there`s an argument that gets out of hand. And another thing you see when you have an

abusive husband is extravagant gifts because they feel badly after abusing the wife and you get things like cars and trips and things like that.

And of course, a woman who is abused frequently, I can`t speak for them, but from what I`ve learned, women who have been abused frequently want to

hide that from their friends. They don`t post the bad stuff.

BANFIELD: I tell you what. Maybe those posts indicate that and maybe they don`t. We really don`t know if there`s any abuse.

MOORE: Right.

BANFIELD: This guy has not been named. He`s not a suspect officially. That is not what they are saying. But we`re going to follow this and we`re going

to see where it goes. Hopefully, there will be some justice for this young woman. This poor young bride. Such a pretty girl too. Thank you for that. I

really appreciate it, Steve. My thanks to Justin Roberts as well.

A fire raging through an apartment complex. Families trapped several stories above. But the video that was caught on the firefighters helmet

cam, nothing short of heart stopping. Parents throwing their children to the firefighters below. You`re going to see more of this video and find out

about this incident, next.

[18:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: They were trapped several stories off the ground as fire raged below and their kids were in the mix. What came next is nothing short of

heart stopping. Newly released helmet cam video showing a firefighter in Atlanta catching a child being thrown from a third story balcony. Adam

Harding from CNN affiliate WGCL reports.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ADAM HARDING, REPORTER, CNN WGCL (voice-over): Listen to the terrifying screams as children are thrown from a third floor balcony to firefighters

waiting below. Flames raging, consuming this DeKalb County apartment building.

TIERRA PYLES, FIRE VICTIM I was shocked. The first thing i heard were the screams.

HARDING (voice-over): Tierra Pyles was home at the time. It was a neighbor who told her to get out and get out fast.

PYLES: I ran to get my sister out of room and we ran outside. And as soon as I ran outside, I just looked to my left and I just see like the building

in flames. And I see the firefighters catching like, I guess it was the babies. I also saw people jumping off their balconies.

PATTI GHEZZI, VOLUNTEER: I really was just blown away by the heroism of the parents to have that level of trust and clear thinking to be able to get

their kids out safely. I was really in awe of the firefighters.

HARDING (voice-over): Investigators believe the fire broke out on an outdoor patio. Everyone made it out alive.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): I lost everything.

HARDING (voice-over): For the victims, they are just thankful for those firefighters while they figure out what comes next.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Holy cow. Margie Mow, defense attorney, your reaction to that video.

MOW: Yes.

BANFIELD: It`s really heart stopping. Other than that, all I can say is hero.

MOW: Absolutely. Can you imagine what type of inferno these parents were in to cause them to take their children and toss them out the window. That is

heroic on their part as well. Very selfless.

BANFIELD: I want to cover the award ceremony because at some point you know there`s going to be one. Thanks, Margie.

[18:55:00] Police officers too are heroes. They have to be ready for anything when they try to capture a suspect. But usually they don`t have to

wrestle a cold-blooded criminal like this one, 12 feet long. More in a sec.

[19:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: One more thing tonight. An arresting moment in South Florida as Pembroke Pines Officer Joseph Cabrera captures this little guy. Nearly 13

feet long. He`s a Burmese python, likes long walks on the beach. This officer did this with his bare hands. You can see it for yourself. More

guts than anyone I know. He had to response because there was a 911 call about a snake on the road, not on a plane, and quite a snake it turned out

to be.

He and his partners ended upbringing this thing back to headquarters and that is where a licensed python remover. There is such a thing, actually,

came to take it away. You get the great photos, though. And apparently, this wasn`t Cabrera`s first snake wrangling rodeo. He was part of a team

captured a 13-foot python that a group of local teenagers came across in February.

Way to go officer Cabrera. You are my hero.

Next hour of CRIME AND JUSTICE starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She hooked up with the country`s favorite comic.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We begin to everywhere, man.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And told everyone he was pushing her for sex.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He continued to press her despite repeatedly acknowledging the fact that she was not comfortable.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said it seems completely consensual.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He came out with a statement saying he is listening and taking this seriously trying to understand what went wrong.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I said I`m sorry that you had a bad date.

You should have gone home. What you have done, in my opinion, is appalling. You have chiseled away at a movement. Did something all of a

sudden change?

A religious couple in California.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 30 something years of marriage, they seem to truly care about each other.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With 13 children under one roof.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Looked like they were having fun like a regular family.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Only one of them just escaped.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 17-year-old managed to escape and call police.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And alerted police to the horrors inside.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Restraining some to beds with chains and padlocks forcing them to live this filthy conditions.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How the kids are doing tonight.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I thought they were like 12 because they looked so malnourish, so pale.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the fate their parents could be facing.

And the 18-year-old new bride found dead in an Iowa apartment just months after tying the knot. Why police are saying her death is suspicious.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: Good evening. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. Welcome to the second hour of CRIME AND JUSTICE.

And while we are at it, welcome to a brand new sexual revolution in America. Because overnight it kind of feels like something might have

changed. In just a few short months close to a hundred powerful men have been professionally crippled because of ugly or downright criminal sexual

behavior. And in just a few short hours, a damning account condition of sexual encounter that went sideways between famous comedian and an

anonymous accuser has put a chill on that powerful and effective movement.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Comedian Aziz Ansari is the latest to be accused of, I`m not sure.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sexual misconduct on a date.

BANFIELD: Worst night of her life.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pushing back of allegations against sexual misconduct.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Responding to a woman`s published story that he cohered here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: HLN Ashleigh Banfield slammed the anonymous woman. Blasted all over the Internet and by our own, Ashleigh Banfield.

BANFIELD: You went to the press with the story of a bad date. You did not get up and leave right away. That is on you. What exactly was your beef?

You looked that gift horse in the mouth and chiseled away at that powerful movement with your public accusations. You stand up, sooner. You smooth

out your dress and you bloody well leave.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: When something like this permeates deep into pop culture that`s when things sure feels different. And suddenly a lot of us are thinking

about bad dates we have all been on, the bad days we have console our friends about and why those nights are different than the stories of sexual

assault re reserved for the #Metoo movement or the sexual harassment stories. It`s something Wendy Williams and her fans seem to be feeling

today too.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ashleigh Banfield, our friend, tore into this woman on HLN on her show last night. Take a look.

BANFIELD: I really do hope that you remember what you did to someone else`s career all because of that bad date that was not a sexual assault.

That was not sexual harassment by your description.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sing it, sister.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So I didn`t sing it easily. But with me tonight to get through this night, CNN senior media correspondent Brian Stelter. He is the host

of "RELIABLE SOURCES," contributing editor for the "Atlantic" Caitlyn Flanagan. Relationship and dating expert Charles Orlando. He is the host

of "Seven Year Itch" and defense attorney Janet Johnson. Margie Mow is also defense attorney.

Everybody is on board. I`m going to start with you, Brian, who always got your finger on the pulse of the culture and on the news cycle. And here is

the tough question. Why was I not universally crucified today because I kind of expected I would be and wasn`t.

[19:05:32] BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Many people feel exactly how you feel. That this piece should not have been published.

That this Web site babe.net, a relatively obscure website should not have spent 3,000 words going into detail about this woman`s very bad date. She

said she eventually concluded it was assault. I think many, many people, most people disagree with her that this was assault.

However, I am grateful to her and grateful to Babe for starting a conversation about the kinds of bad encounters that do not amount to

crimes. I don`t know if you agree with me on that. I think it would be a good thing that we are talking about these sorts of issues. But we have to

be really careful not to lump them in with the actual assault and harassment cases that have shocked the country in the past few months.

BANFIELD: That`s a big part of the issue for me. And my other big part of the issue for which I`m not grateful to Babe and this (INAUDIBLE) is that

this was sloppy and dangerous journalism. And I`m going to give you an example of the personal who brought you the story of Aziz Ansari, and may

have consigned him to a life of finding another career. We don`t know yet. Jury is out.

But this writer personally reached out to us with comments. Wanted these comments to be in my inbox. And I`m only going to read a slight portion I

think it`s important you know the caliber of the person and the so called journalist who decided to launch that nuclear salvo at Aziz Ansari disturb

me down.

And Katy Way said this of me. Ashleigh, someone I`m certain no one under the age of 45 has never heard of. I hope the 500 retweets on the single

news right up made that burgundy lipstick, bad highlight, second wave feminist has been feel really relevant for a little while.

And if you want to talk journalism, that`s just bad journalism, number one.

STELTER: And she should take that back immediately.

BANFIELD: Yes. It wasn`t a single write up for 500 retweets. It`s something called viral and you`re 22 years old so you should know the

meaning of viral and you should do your homework.

But the other big issue is if you are going to be a jour journalist and really join a national conversation in a responsible way and want to be

respected for it, you don`t decide as a feminist to call a 50-year-old woman on television who has been a war correspondent on well, I don`t know,

bad lipstick, bad highlights, second wave. I just think that cheapens everything. That`s the caliber of the journalist who brought us to this

story.

STELTER: It also cheapens the story she told. But I do think there are a lot of 22-year-olds, 23-year-olds out there that don`t want to accept the

status quo. That don`t want to accept that man is going to invite you back to his apartment and then immediately try to get you to do x, y and z.

BANFIELD: Let me bring actually Charles Orlando in on this because - a relationship and dating expert.

What is going on? Either sit a hook up culture with young people right now. Grace is 23 so she fits in that demo or it isn`t? What is it?

CHARLES ORLANDO, RELATIONSHIP AND DATING EXPERT: Well, it`s definitely a hook up culture. I mean, somewhere between tender and Facebook, the act of

formal courtship got completely lost. And now a swipe right is supposed to equal intent and consent.

Now in Aziz`s situation, I think that there was consent. When you are in somebody`s house and you have taken all off your clothing and you started

engaging in sexual acts. That is consent. Now she could have changed her mind. And that`s when you get dressed and you leave. No problem there.

But it`s not his responsibility to check in every three or four minutes saying, is it still a yes? Is it still a yes? Like that is not his job.

It`s her job to stand up. She has agency. She can get on her two feet. She can walk out of house and say, no, I`m not with this anymore. I have

changed my mind. And she has that right. To attach this to the Metoo movement is wrong. Aziz did not have any control over her career. He

didn`t have any violent act that`s happened. He didn`t stop her from pursuing anything. He didn`t have anything violent.

BANFIELD: You know, it didn`t reach the level of what we have codified as a sexual crime in this country as well.

Janet, I think you disagree. But I want to just preface my question to you the regard to the potential that you think might be a crime here with this.

By her own description, she was naked for much of the half hour that she was many the apartment in several different locations with several

different episodes of sexual encounter in those locations. In the middle of it, needed a break to gather herself. Splash water on her face but

returned naked suggesting they chill on the couch. How is that not a strong signal for consent that maybe we could do some more.

[19:10:17] JANET JOHNSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, initially she said that he started touched her when they were clothed before she had consented to

any touching. So at a minimum, Ashleigh, it could be a battery. Touching without my consent is a battery, even if it is not sexual. But he actually

went further and he touched her sexually which could be lewd and lascivious battery.

But you know, it is important, she didn`t go to the police and she isn`t saying that she wants to prosecute, at least at this point. I don`t think

it has to be a crime for it to be inappropriate, for it to be something worthy of talking about.

BANFIELD: I`m with you. I`m with you. But let`s not forget that there was a summary judgment and sentence levelled on a guy even if we are not

talking about, even if we are not even sure we are about to adjudicate the crime, the sentence has been dispensed.

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: It`s not on the public. It`s on Babe who published it and this writer who seems to think this was journalism. Why am I wrong here?

JOHNSON: Why are we attacking the woman?

ORLANDO: The conversation is valuable.

JOHNSON: I`m not saying she has the burden that she has to walk out. Why is the burden on that woman? She told the story to a journalist.

Journalist can, you know, they are not stenographers.

BANFIELD: If you don`t like the sex, leave. That`s my point. If you are not leaving, it`s kind of a signal to the man.

JOHNSON: Well, she did leave ultimately.

BANFIELD: Let me bring in Caitlin Flanagan -- not until all of this apparently happened and then she decided to destroy his career.

Caitlin Flanagan, I read your piece in the Atlantic. I was -- I thought it was fantastic. I thought that even the sub headline was so profound. And

just to summarize it, it talked about this powerful movement that is dangerous as well. And I think this is a perfect microcosmic example of

that.

But then when you wrote further about the old (INAUDIBLE) of slap that man when he gets fresh. It was intriguing because while I see value in the old

(INAUDIBLE) protecting us from this kind of thing happening, I also see those old (INAUDIBLE) as saying this was your fault if you wore the short

skirt. So where do we find the common ground in all of that?

CAITLIN FLANAGAN, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, THE ATLANTIC: Well, I think that we have young women who are very confused right now. On the one hand they

have done these incredible things that women of my generation can only sit back in awe of, you know. There are strides in medicine and law and

careers, in sports. There`s so many ways that they do things that we would hardly have imagined for ourselves. And they are so strong and they speak

out and they speak up in so many ways. And then in this one area being sexual with a man that they don`t know well in the midst of a hook up, they

can`t stay stop it. They can`t say don`t do it.

You know, people have recounted that she said stop it many, many times. She said I don`t want to do this exactly one time and his response was

let`s put our clothes on. So I think what was really going on when you read the story is she had hopes and she had some dreams for this night.

She was so excited when she was able to get on his radar after he brushed her off at the party. She was so excited when he asked her to go out. She

spent all afternoon choosing her outfits and texting him around. And I think she hoped he would treat her as someone special.

But he didn`t think she was very special. He didn`t get her a special kind of drink when she got there. She was disappointed by that. He wasn`t very

interested in what he had to say at dinner. He rushed her to that. He was, which is completely valid in today`s sexual culture, he was interested

in her the way they used to say in the `50s, he was only interested in one thing. He wanted to have sex with her.

BANFIELD: Critically to just tag onto that, she sent a text or an email the next day, some communication the next day saying upon reflection that

this was now something she was very uncomfortable with. And I look at the justice system, and not just criminal justice, (INAUDIBLE) justice, as

something you don`t get retroactive justice. It has to happen in the moment. And if no one is on the same page during the moment, you can`t

recalibrate after the fact and then ascribe retroactive justice.

But Margie Mow, that seems to be what people think should happen. From a legal perspective, talk me off the ledge.

MARGIE MOW, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I disagree with what you said only because a situation like this does take time to process. We also have to

focus on the fact that she was in a celebrity`s home. This wasn`t just Joe down the block. If that would have been the case, maybe she would have

walked out.

I agree that she probably had high hopes for this date. He only wanted to hook up and she didn`t realize what was going on until later. But another

key element is the fact that she participated in oral sex. I think that`s really key here because it`s one thing to try to fight man off from

touching you and trying to get into your pants. I`ve been there. I don`t know about you all but I have. But it`s a completely different thing to

perform oral sex on a man. And I think the fact that she did that, mislead him. And I`m not justifying his actions by any means. However, I do think

that she needs to accept responsibility.

[19:15:24] BANFIELD: Apparently, she did it during that canoodling moment on the coach where she was naked and by her account all he did was points

his fingers to his crotch and she said she engaged.

Let me ask Brian Stelter a really important cultural question about this. I read that letter. It went viral. I thought I would need a shield to

come into work today and deal with the public. It`s not amounted to that at all. What if man had read that letter? What would be different?

STELTER: I think a lot of men are in listening modes right now right there. And listening mode trying not to say the wrong thing, not to react

the wrong way to this cultural moment. This period of immense change. Then there`s a sense this country, this world needs to go through what we

are going through right now but it`s very difficult. And so I think a lot of men are walking around on egg shells.

Maybe that`s OK, though. Maybe that is alright. I think what`s most important is look at each of these cases individually. "The New York

Times" over the week, two shocking cases of sexual exploitation by photographers. Those men immediately lost their jobs (INAUDIBLE). Their

relationship to (INAUDIBLE).

This, very different case. I think Aziz Ansari is going to be fine. We need to make sure all of us as readers, as viewers, we judge each of these

cases individually. In this case we read about a bad date. And I think there`s room to talk about bad dates. About people that feel violated

without feeling like a crime was committed.

BANFIELD: Or again, without consigning them to a future like a potential like I don`t know if you are right. I hope you are right. Because I don`t

think he deserves the Hollywood blackball.

STELTER: It`s about corporations not overreacting, right. They need to react appropriately without overreacting.

BANFIELD: Aziz, has been completely humiliated publicly. I mean, there is a lot to that sentence as well.

STELTER: You`re right. But this is not a Louie C.K. situation.

BANFIELD: It is not a Louie C.K. It is not a Kevin Spacey. It is not a Harvey Weinstein.

Real quickly, Caitlin, former national security advisor Condoleezza Rice said something I thought was very profound to David Axelrod over the

weekend. And she said don`t infantilize us, right. We are not snowflakes. Don`t make us so delicate. And yet this woman, this accuser, seems to want

it both ways. She wants the equality. She wants to be a new age woman. She wants to feel empowered and yet it seems she can`t muster the strength

to put on the big girl pants and walk out of that bathroom and not go back to the sofa naked so that an additional encounter or two can happen. Can

anybody have this both ways or who do we need to become as women and as men looking at women.

FLANAGAN: I think what she really wanted to become was Mrs. Aziz Ansari and he couldn`t even make it through dinner without trying to get the check

because she was boring. He thought she was really boring and she kept staying there throughout this purely sexual event because she was trying to

find way to have him be interested in her. He wasn`t. He felt she was kind of dull.

BANFIELD: Charles Orlando. There are many people who work in the industry as celebrity be in, you know, all the peripheral people around them make-up

and hair, of security and agents of all the rest who will tell you early and often there`s people out there who bask in the aura of celebrities.

And celebrities like Kevin Spacey have done things that have offended these people and yet they return to the table because that table is fun. And I

wonder if that is not an issue here as well. That there was a metric and a calculation that was being made by this young woman whereby there could be

some enjoyment, I want there to be enjoyment. This is a celebrity. I`m just not loving the sex.

ORLANDO: Sure. No, there`s definitely a celebrity piece to this. And I think without defending her, Aziz definitely that. But I think

sociologically, there`s a larger conversation that happens here. And that is, just there is no such thing anymore as implied consent like just

because she was there without her clothes on doesn`t mean that was an automatic yes. He needs to check in and she has the right to say, you know

what, I don`t want to do this. Or even better, I have changed my mind. Like this is my body. You don`t get access to it without me saying

something.

BANFIELD: You nailed it. And I think this conversation needs to continue. And I appreciate the maturity and the journalism of this panel. I cannot

say the same thing for this journalist to this publications. I think it was reckless. And I it`s not the standards that we should all ascribe to.

Thank you all. Thank you so much.

I have got new details tonight about that home in California where police say they rescued 13 siblings. They were malnourished. Some of them even

shackled. Their parents now charged with torture. What we are learning from the neighbors about what might have been going on with what sure looks

like a happy family.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:25:09] BANFIELD: Ask anyone and their wedding pictures will show the happiest times of their lives. Like one couple in California who renewed

their vows three times over the years surrounded by all 13 of their children.

In a uniquely strange celebration with Elvis standing in as an officiate in Vegas.

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYING)

BANFIELD: But when that family got home from the celebrations the smiles and dancing apparently disappeared because officials are just learning from

a teenage daughter who escaped a window of that house that the other kids were all be held captive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAPTAIN GREG FELLOW, RIVERSIDE COUNTY SHERIFF`S DEPARTMENT: On Sunday, January 14th, 2018 just before 6:00 in the morning, a 17-year-old girl

called 911 from a deactivated cell phone and reported that her siblings were being held against their will and some were chained. Deputies

responded, met with that 17-year-old nearby and she explained he had escaped from a window from that residence. The 17-year-old also showed

some photos that led the deputies to believe that the information she was providing was accurate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Police say they found 12 other kids in that house ranging in age from two all the way up to age 29, in conditions that no human being should

have to experience.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FELLOW: Deputies when they arrived inside the house, they noticed that the children were malnourished. It was very dirty and the conditions were

horrific.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: At least three of the children were found chained to furniture. Apparently their ages were so difficult to determine because of the alleged

abuse including the 17-year-old sister who managed to save her siblings.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FELLOW: If you can imagine being 17 years old and appearing to be a 10- year-old, being chained to a bed, being malnourished and injuries associated with that, I would call that torture.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Well, that`s the charge that David and Louise Turpin are now facing, torture. And you can add to that child endangerment too. And

their bail has been set at a whopping $9 million.

CNN correspondent Dan Simon is live in Perris, California tonight in front of family`s home.

Dan, the -- on its surface this story just doesn`t seem real. It`s so hard to digest that this is possible especially given the photos and video that

show such a happy family. What am I missing?

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on the phone): That`s what everybody is asking, Ashleigh. You know, you talk to the neighbors, they didn`t really

see anything amiss. Although looking back some realize that there were some oddities, you know. For instance, the children appeared to be very

pale. Looks like they hadn`t spent much time outdoors. They were also very intensely private. And so, you know, authorities are obviously going

to be trying to ascertain what was going on in the parents` life to, you know, to make them think that this kind of behavior, this kind of parenting

was OK. Right now they are really not giving us any answers, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: And Dan, is it true these are all their biological children? And the pictures certainly seem to indicate that they took them to Disney

Land on a regular basis. Maybe Disney world but that they were actually regular, you know, travelers and by some accounts even had, you know,

$10,000 worth of annual passes to Disney World. How is there such (INAUDIBLE) between these photos and the reality that the officials found

in their home?

SIMON: Great question. You know, they did go to Disney Land. They went to Las Vegas several times. Apparently some of the children even have

cars. You know, I`m standing in the driveway here and you see three fairly new Volkswagen vehicles. There`s also large van in the driveway. And this

house, you know, from all appearances, at least on the outside, it appears to be a nice house. We do know that the father was employed. He was

actually an engineer (INAUDIBLE). You know, the space engineering firm. And so, he actually pulled in a pretty good living, $140,000 a year. But

when you have that many children, obviously they are going to be financial difficulties. We do know that a few years back he did declare bankruptcy.

The family did have a lot of debt.

BANFIELD: I said unbelievable. All that debt and bankruptcy and yet $10,000 per year for these Disney passes for all of those 13 children and

all of those matching outfits in so many of those different events. I want to play if I can for a moment Captain Greg Fellows who really characterizes

what the mother`s reaction was upon finding out effectively the gig is up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAPTAIN GREG FELLOWS, RIVERSIDE COUNTY SHERIFF`S DEPARTMENT: It seemed that the mother was perplexed as to why we were at that residence. We had

no prior contacts at that residence regarding any allegations of child abuse or neglect.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So, regarding the child abuse and neglect, the torture that`s referred to other than children being chained to furniture also, you know,

aligned with what the authorities said was years and years of malnourishment because of the size and development of these children. And

when you hear this, you will shake your head. Mark Uffer is the CEO of Corona Regional Medical Center, and he described the biological age of

these children and the apparent age of these children. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK UFFER, CEO, CORONA REGIONAL MEDICAL CENTER: We have seven of the adults. It`s hard to think of them as adults when you first see them

because they are -- they`re small and it`s very clear that they are malnutritioned.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: And that aligns perfectly with what the neighbors saw. The neighbors had a visceral reaction. I mean those pictures, if you see those

homes, they look so normal. Everything looked -- I mean, it almost looks (INAUDIBLE). It`s incredible to think that something was amiss in that

seemingly perfect house. Here`s what the neighbors described.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s so sad, so horrible. I can`t believe this. I can`t believe this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s heart-breaking. And to know -- to know that there were that much kids in there and not even know about it, then it`s

like I wish there was something this community could have done.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The older kids, they -- I thought they were like 12 because they looked so malnourish, so pale. So, because of that I thought

that they were much younger than what they were.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I want to bring in Joseph Scott Morgan. He is a professor of applied forensics at Jacksonville State University and a certified death

investigator as well.

Joe, the descriptions that not only the medical professionals but the neighbors who are witnesses had given all align. These children look so

much younger than they were. What does that mean in terms of the pain and suffering, the torture and the malnourishment they endured and for how

long?

JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, PROFESSOR OF APPLIED FORENSICS, JACKSONVILLE STATE UNIVERSITY: Yes, it`s important that we apply a specific term to this,

Ashleigh. They put out the term malnourishment along with torture. I think the keyword here is depravation. This idea that these children have

been deprived of a reasonable area to live in, to exist in, and that goes to things like food, nutrition, probably overall medical care. The ability

to just move and exercise and these are going to be major sources for evidence going forward in this case. This is in fact an evidence rich

environment. And there`s going to be two things they`re going to be looking at moving forward.

The most importantly is establishing a timeline. This is not something that happens overnight. This has been ongoing thing as those of us that

have children, you know that you go and visit the doctor with your kids. And they put the kids, they give you an idea of where a child should be

developed mentally. That`s going to play key as well. Then we go to the home, and we begin to look at things, I`ve heard terms like shackles,

restraints, tied to beds, tied to tables, all kinds of horrific things.

BANFIELD: At least three of them -- at least three of them, Joe, were chained to furniture.

MORGAN: Right.

BANFIELD: A couple of other things I just want to make sure people realize. The home was registered as a private school, and the father was

listed as the principal. The paternal grandparents are shocked. They said they had no idea about all of this. The adult kids right now are all

together at a hospital being treated. The juveniles also -- all 13 are being treated at a hospital. And I do want to actually bring in Margie Mow

for a moment here, defense attorney, the fact that there are all of these horrifying allegations, will these children need to testify against their

parents or can a case be mounted against them with just the empirical material before them to secure a prosecution?

MARGIE MOW, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it depends whether or not the case goes to trial or a plea negotiated. If it goes to trial then they will be

required to testify. There`s a lot of unknown facts. They essentially moved from Texas. Did something change when they moved from Texas?

Obviously, all these children have been deprived for many, many years which is why they`re so petite. But they go out in public and they seem fairly

happy. They seem fairly normal. To the -- to the naked eye you cannot tell that there`s adults in these groups because they`re so small. So,

there`s a lot of unanswered questions that I think we do need to hear from at least some of the children to find out --

BANFIELD: It is so depressing.

MOW: -- how long this has been going on.

BANFIELD: Well, at least in the investigative process because if you want to plea bargain you have to have the goods as well. Thank you so much,

Margie. I`m going to ask you to stick around. Joseph Scott Morgan, thank you as well. This should have been --

MORGAN: Thank you.

BANFIELD: -- one of the happiest times of her life. But this 18-year-old, beautiful, 18-year-old bride is not celebrating her recent marriage.

Instead her family is planning something quite different, her funeral. And now police are planning something else. An investigation into a mystery.

And the autopsy that just yielded results a few hours ago may hold a massive clue.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: On a Saturday afternoon, teenagers typically head to the mall or hit the movie theater but not Anna Edgeton. She was already married at the

age of 18 and her bridal pictures are beautiful. She also took up residence with her husband in an apartment in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. That was

at least until this Saturday because that apartment is the very place that Anna was found dead after she reportedly did not show up for work. The

police have been uniquely tight lipped about Anna`s case for days, about the details of Anna`s death.

But tonight, we are finding out something important and that is how she died. The autopsy concluded just before we got to air and the results are

in. Anna was shot. And the death that police first called suspicious, well that`s being re-characterized. It`s now officially being called

homicide. I just want to start with Justin Roberts because he`s a host for News Radio 600 WMT in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And perhaps, Justin, you can

shed a little more light because it seems to me that is one hell of a mystery and there are very few answers that are forth coming. Any idea

why?

JUSTIN ROBERTS, HOST, NEWS RADIO 600 WMT: Well, good evening, Ashleigh. It`s such an odd case. You know, we`re so much (INAUDIBLE) you know, every

once in a while you hear a case like this where, you know, there`s been somebody`s, you know, been found dead. Then you find out, you know, a

couple days later, wait a minute now. This isn`t what it seems. This is - - this is now a homicide. We`ve got the reports you just mentioned, too, coming out of break about now it`s a gunshot. But now, it`s a gunshot, but

now that really froze this entire community up in arms because here`s an 18-year-old just married, just starting her adult life. Now, the reason

the police went there was she hadn`t been to work in a couple of days. So, it sounds like an 18-year-old that`s probably got it all together. Got her

career figured out, she graduated high school early, and then this happened. It cut down right in the climb of just starting her own

adulthood life.

BANFIELD: So, here`s what we`re trying to figure out. The husband, we know nothing about. The police aren`t answering our questions. He is not

charged at this point. They`re not calling him a suspect at this point. There`s an investigation but they`re not even saying if he`s around.

That`s weird. Maybe we`ll get more information soon. But I do want to do one thing if I can because often times when you don`t get a lot of

information, you go to the social media and you try to figure out some clues on what led up to all of this. And all I can tell you is a little

bit about her Instagram before she died. About a month after she was married, this is last September, this is what she posted. Looks like a

really nice family life. "Nice to be off work just at home cooking for the husband."

So later that month, she posted another -- and look at this. A beautiful car with a bow on it and look what she posted, "The new whip is driving

good." Smiley icon. Next up after that, in October, apparently, a wonderful trip to the zoo. This just looks so, so happy and healthy. She

says, "Zoo was lit haha." For those of you who don`t know, that`s a good thing. The zoo was great. And then, her last Instagram post in December.

She appears to be with a pet of some kind, maybe an iguana, that`s a sort of a -- well, crawling up her body towards her -- the nape of her neck,

right up on her should where her hair is, and her post is "He`s ready to sleep." Now, if that were any 18-year-old, I would say that`s a well-

adjusted, happy 18-year-old who`s living a pretty full and rewarding life. Is there anything else that I haven`t found that might give them some more

investigative power?

ROBERTS: You know, and I did the same thing. Having just (INAUDIBLE) we don`t know the answers. And I went on the social media earlier this

afternoon and saw the same pictures you did. And you try to find the husband in social media and it`s dark. I mean, there`s nothing going on,

there`s no posts -- there`s a few posts back and forth between husband and wife. There`s the engagement photos. Oh, we`re so excited to be married.

But then that`s it, there`s nothing more after that.

BANFIELD: OK, I want to bring in former FBI agent and investigator, Steve Moore, because if we`re (INAUDIBLE) by this, I know that you have, you

know, the magical bag of tricks. And law enforcement knows where to go and what to do in an instance like this, and they don`t need to tell us

anything. What do you think they are doing? Where do you think they`re looking?

STEVE MOORE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I think they are looking at the husband because if she -- you know, you go do a welfare

check. That happens a lot. It`s no big -- no big surprise. You find her dead that is a big surprise. The problem with the welfare check is it

wasn`t called in by the husband. And she had missed work for more than a day, by my understanding. So, all -- in all that time, the husband didn`t

have any concern about his wife being missing or didn`t even -- didn`t even wonder about her. So that right away is a big problem.

BANFIELD: And Steve, the only thing that we can tell you from the autopsy, this is the newest and most breaking information on the case is that she

died from gunshot wounds. How does that -- I mean, a gunshot wound is not subtle. And when you walk into that welfare check, you know damn well what

you have on your hands. And yet, it was a suspicious death. Now, it`s a homicide. Why is it that a gunshot wound being released publicly would

change it publicly to a homicide? It was clear from the beginning, wasn`t it?

MOORE: Yes, it was. And you can tell -- you`ve already spoken about the fact that Cedar Rapids is really holding the cards close to their chest on

this one. First of all, you`re going to -- if the gun is not right next to the body, then you know it`s a homicide. Somebody shot them. The other

thing is guns are used quite frequently in homes when there is an argument that gets out of hand. And another thing you see when you have an abusive

husband is extravagant gifts because they feel badly after abusing the wife and you get things like cars and trips and things like that. And, of

course, a woman who is abused frequently, I can`t speak for them, but from what I`ve learned, women who`ve been abused frequently want to hide that

from their friends, and they`re not going to post the bad stuff.

BANFIELD: And maybe those posts indicate that and maybe they don`t. We really don`t know if there was any abuse.

MOORE: Right.

BANFIELD: And then this guy has not been named. He`s not a suspect officially. Anyway, that`s not what they`re saying. But we`re going to

follow this and we`re going to see where it goes and hopefully there will be some justice for this young woman. This poor young bride. Such a

pretty girl, too. Thank you for that. I really appreciate it, Steve. And my thanks to Justin Roberts as well.

A fire raging through an apartment complex. Families trapped several stories above. But the video that was caught on the firefighters` helmet

cam, nothing short of heart-stopping. Parents throwing their children to the firefighters below. You`re going to see more of this video and find

out about this incident, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: They were trapped several stories off the ground as fire raged below, and their kids were in the mix. But what came next is nothing short

of heart-stopping. Newly released helmet cam video showing a firefighter in Atlanta catching a child being thrown from a third story balcony. Adam

Harding from CNN affiliate WGCL reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ADAM HARDING, WGCL REPORTER: Listen to the terrifying screams as children are thrown from a third floor balcony to firefighters waiting below.

Flames raging, consuming this DeKalb county apartment building.

TIARA PYLES, FIRE VICTIM: I was shock. Like, the first thing I heard were the screams.

HARDING: Tiara Pyles was home at the time. It was a neighbor who told her to get out and get out fast.

PYLES: I ran to get my sister out of the room and we ran outside, and as soon as I ran outside I just I looked to my left, and I just see like the

building in flames, and I see the firefighters catching like, I guess they were -- it was the babies, I also saw people jumping off their balconies.

PATTI GHEZZI, VOLUNTEER: I`m really was just blown away by the heroism of the parents to have that level of trust and clear thinking to be able to

get their kids out safely, and I was really first in awe of the firefighters.

HARDING: Investigators believe the fire broke out on an outdoor patio. Everyone made it out alive.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I lost everything.

HARDING: For the victims, they`re just thankful for those firefighters while they figure out what comes next.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: Holy cow. Margie Mow, defense attorney, your reaction to that video?

MOW: Yes.

BANFIELD: It`s really heart-stopping. Other than that, all I can say is hero.

MOW: Absolutely. Can you imagine what type of inferno these parents were in to cause them to take their children and toss them out the window? I

mean, that is heroic on their part as well and very selfless.

BANFIELD: I want to cover the award ceremony because at some point you know there`s going to be one. Thanks, Margie.

Police officers, too, are heroes. And they have to be ready for anything when they try to capture a, quote, suspect. But usually they don`t have to

wrestle a cold-blooded criminal. Like this one. 12-feet long. More in a sec.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: And "ONE MORE THING" tonight. An arresting moment in South Florida as Pembroke Pines officer Joseph Cabrera did this. Yikes, I get

the willies. This is a 13-foot Burmese python that he captured with his bare hands. The police had to respond to a 911 call about a snake in the

road. And he did. He is one brave fellow. Quite a snake. But apparently, Cabrera and his partners were able to wrangle that snake back

to headquarters, and then a licensed python remover came to take it away. And apparently, this is not even Cabrera`s first snake-wrangling rodeo.

Dang! He captured a 13-foot python that a local group of teenagers found back in April. Better him than me.

Thank you for watching, everybody. We`re going to see back here tomorrow night 6:00 Eastern for CRIME & JUSTICE. In the meantime, "FORENSIC FILES"

begins right now.

END