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HALA GORANI TONIGHT
Senate To Vote On Two Shutdown Proposals, Both Likely To Fail; Atlanta Expecting Mass Influx Of Visitors For Super Bowl; Voters Split On Trump Amid Shutdown; Officials End Search For Emiliano Sala Plane; Scotland's Ex-First Minister Charged; New Helmets For Pope's Swiss Guard; Trump Blinks And Agrees to Wait On State of The Union Speech; Military Leadership Backs Maduro Against Opposition Coup in Venezuela; Pompeo Says U.S. Ready to Support Venezuela's Democratic Hopes; Russia Warns Against Military Intervention in Venezuela; Baldwin Interviews Eric Farnsworth, Vice President of The Americas Society and Council of The Americas on Venezuelan Situation; Pleitgen Interviews Sergei Ryabkov Deputy Foreign Minister of Russia; Ryabkov Dismisses Suggestion That Trump Is An Agent for Russia; Airbus Warns of Harmful Decisions In Case of No Deal Brexit.
Aired January 24, 2018 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:00] HALA GORANI, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. Live from CNN London on this Thursday, I'm Hala Gorani. Tonight, the high-stakes power struggle
between Donald Trump and Nancy Pelosi over the government shutdown. We are live in Washington as the Senate prepares to vote this hour. Also,
tonight, another big power struggle in Venezuela as countries around the world support or denounce Nicolas Maduro. Also, this, an exclusive sit-
down with Russia's deputy foreign minister, who among other things, responds to accusations that President Trump was an agent of Russia. As
you can see from the images there, we'll also be talking about Airbus. Airbus, by the way, has been saying if no deal Brexit happens, who knows
what will happen with its partnership with the U.K. As you saw from those images, we'll be tackling that story.
If there is one word to describe Donald Trump, it is unpredictable. And in his latest showdown with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, he did something no
one saw coming. He blinked. The U.S. President now agrees with the Democratic leader that he shouldn't deliver a State of the Union speech
until after the government shutdown is resolved. Pelosi says she's glad the drama of the State of the Union squabble is done, so now they can get
to work on what she says is really important.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY PELOSI, SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: I'm glad we could get that off the table because I know it was a source of many questions. It is so
unimportant in the lives of the American people in terms of especially those who are victims of the shutdown, hostages to the President's applause
line in a campaign speech. Thank goodness we put that matter to rest and we can get on to the subject at hand, open up government.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Well, the effort to get the government working again is focused right now on the U.S. Senate. In the next hour, senators are scheduled to
vote on two competing bills that could fund the government and therefore reopen the government, but neither has enough bipartisan support to pass.
So, what's the point? Let's bring in White House reporter Sarah Westwood with more. Let's talk a little more about Donald Trump's response to Nancy
Pelosi, essentially agreeing with her, that maybe now is not the right time to deliver that State of the Union address. What prompted that?
SARAH WESTWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Well, Hala, we know the White House was caught off guard by the fact that Speaker Pelosi actually
officially canceled the State of the Union until after the partial government shutdown is over. President Trump had hoped to give the State
of the Union from the House chamber. Although there were internal discussions about alternative venues or formats for that speech, ultimately
the President decided he wanted to give his address to Congress in the traditional setting of the House chamber. So those other avenues weren't
pursued. So, the President blinking in response to Pelosi is as much about his desire to give a formal State of the Union address as his desire to
keep negotiating on the shutdown.
GORANI: But does this mean, perhaps, there's room for compromise here?
WESTWOOD: Well, both sides are seemingly still as entrenched as they were on the day the shutdown began. The Democratic backed bill in the Senate
not expected to attract enough votes to pass. Neither is President Trump's proposal to trade wall funding for temporary immigration proposals. So, we
could see some negotiation start after these two bills expect failure. Sources say the White House is considering inviting Pelosi and Chuck
Schumer to the White House for further negotiations. So, there's a sense within the White House that once these bills fail, then negotiations could
start back up again.
GORANI: Because the President and Nancy Pelosi a couple days ago we were reporting haven't spoken in two weeks. Has there been any communication
between them face to face since?
WESTWOOD: No. Speaker Pelosi, President Trump, they have not spoken since that January 9th meeting here at the White House when President Trump
walked out of the room after Pelosi said she would not be willing to entertain wall funding, even if President Trump reopened the government
temporarily, which is one thing that the Democrats had been pushing for.
[14:05:00] Now, the most public communication we'd seen between the two are the letters they've traded over the State of the Union address and the
President stripping Pelosi of her ability to use planes for her Congressional delegation trip. For the two of them to sit down again, that
would be a significant step, but neither side appears willing at this moment to give an inch.
GORANI: All right. Sarah Westwood, thanks very much. And just as an aside here, there was a political poll that came out. 54 percent of
Americans blame Trump and Congressional Republicans for the shutdown. 34 percent, according to this political poll, blame the Democrats. That might
have something to do with kind of, you know, a Republican effort to try to find some sort of compromise, if, indeed, that's being discussed in
Washington. We'll have more on that later in the program. We were talking about political battles in the U.S. there is political drama unfolding in
Venezuela. The country's powerful military leadership has now taken sides. It is backing President Nicolas Maduro against what it is calling a coup.
That public support could prove key as Mr. Maduro faces a dramatic attempt by the opposition to unseat him. Russia, turkey, and China are now among
the countries coming to Maduro's defense. As far as the opposition leader, he has some powerful backing of his own, including the United States and
the European Union, as he claims to be Venezuela's legitimate leader. Let's take you now live to Caracas. What's the situation today? There
were these big demonstrations yesterday. What's going on today in Caracas?
STEFANO POZZEBON, JOURNALIST: Yes, Hala, today the situation is of tense and calm expectation. Of course, as we have seen, the situation is
escalating very, very quickly and dramatically with a clash of words between the ministry of defense and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, who
pledged once again strong support from the United States to the opposition leader. And generally, people in Caracas, as are international observers,
are monitoring how will this situation evolve in the next couple of days, in the next few hours, which could prove crucial for the future of
Venezuela. Once again, let's go back to what the Minister of Defense said this morning here. And just to give an idea of the tone of the clash that
is happening right now in Caracas. Here is what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VLADIMIR PADRINO LOPEZ, MINISTER OF DEFENSE, VENEZUELA (through translator): We don't deserve wearing our uniforms if we were not to
defend our constitution, our independence, and our sovereignty. We have sworn to die with our homeland, our Venezuela, our people, and we are going
to do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POZZEBON: And we are ready to die to defend what he says is the legitimate President of Venezuela, Nicolas Maduro. As we see with Donald Trump saying
that all options are still on the table when it comes to restoring democracy here in Venezuela, the situation can become very, very serious
very, very quickly, Hala.
GORANI: Yes, it sure can. Thank you, Stefano, with that report from Caracas. As we mentioned, countries around the world are taking sides.
The U.S. is the highest profile backer of the opposition leader, Juan Guaido. Here's what the Secretary of State had to say about him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE POMPEO, SECRETARY OF STATE: We stand ready to support the efforts of the national assembly, the Venezuelan people, and the interim President to
restore democracy and respect for the rule of law in Venezuela. Our support for Venezuela's Democratic hopes and dreams is in sharp contrast to
the authoritarian regimes across the globe who have lined up to prop up former President Maduro.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: And that was Mike Pompeo there. Let's get more on this unfolding crisis. Eric Farnsworth joins me, Vice President of The Americas Society
and Council of The Americas. Eric, thanks. I guess the most important thing is the military is now saying they're backing Maduro, right? And
whoever has the military behind them has the upper hand.
ERIC FARNSWORTH, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE AMERICAS SOCIETY AND COUNCIL OF THE AMERICAS: Hi, Hala. Good to be back with you. Yes, absolutely. The
military is key in this entire political struggle, but it's not much of a surprise that the leadership would come out in support of the Maduro
regime. The leadership has been fully invested in the success of the Maduro regime because through that they've had access to growth,
corruption, drug trafficking, and food and medicine that the rest of the population haven't really had access to.
[14:10:00] I think the broader question is what happens to others at perhaps lower levels of the military and the paramilitary, those who don't
have access to the same levels of corruption and whose own families are suffering in this humanitarian crisis. It's a real problem.
GORANI: Nicolas Maduro speaking live. That's what we're seeing live right now. We'll monitor what he's saying. So, you're talking about other
groups that could take up arms?
FARNSWORTH: Sure. It depends on the command and control of the central government, if they're controlling the military fully, whether it's in
Caracas or outside Caracas. There are any number of other police units or paramilitary units or others that have grown up over the years in
Venezuela. So, it's really a question of can the central government command all of them and will they all obey? I think that's an open
question. Again, with the military leadership on the record, that's certainly a very important point.
GORANI: But what would unseat Maduro then? The U.S. is expressing support. Pompeo is urging the military to oust Maduro. We know now, we've
heard from them, they say they'll stand by him. Do you think the U.S. is prepared to go further in this crisis, further than rhetoric?
FARNSWORTH: I think it depends on what Maduro does. If he moves against the President recognized by the United States, I think the U.S. will take
additional sanctions, perhaps in the energy sector, and Maduro has also now threatened U.S. diplomats, telling them to get out of the country. The
U.S. has said that's not going to happen. If the Maduro forces try to force U.S. diplomats out, that could also bring a response. But for now, I
think it's tense but it's kind of waiting to see whether the other shoe drops in Venezuela.
GORANI: Also, sanctions -- you know, I mean, they hurt ordinary Venezuelans. They're desperate already. There's been a big migration to
other Latin American countries. People are having trouble just finding food to eat and heating their homes and other big humanitarian issues. So,
these sanctions, would they put pressure on Maduro at all, additional ones?
FARNSWORTH: This is a really big question. There is a humanitarian crisis under way. Some estimates put over 10 percent of Venezuela's total
population already outside the country. That's over 3 million people. And one of the reasons why the United States has been reluctant, frankly, to
take greater steps over the years, particularly in the energy sector, is the idea that doing so would unnecessarily harm the Venezuelan people. But
the calculation has to be shifting if they're going to do that to consider the crisis has escalated and they need to take further steps. So that's
something that's clearly going to be under consideration in the hours perhaps, or certainly days ahead.
GORANI: Eric, stand by for just a few seconds. We're going to dip in to this Maduro address. Apparently, he's been talking about Trump.
NICOLAS MADURO, DISPUTED PRESIDENT OF VENEZUELA [14:15:00] (through translator): To intervene in Venezuela in the way they have would be
GORANI: All right. The translation was a little on the low side. I heard him speak of the bolivar idea. He mentioned Trump. Eric, if you're still
with me, what is he -- what's he trying to achieve here, Maduro? And also, how much popular support does he actually have?
FARNSWORTH: Well, he's very much trying to bi-lateralize this crisis. He's threatened, he's under pressure. If he can throw the spotlight on to
Washington, it's a very traditional approach, frankly, of his and other countries around the world, and get people focused on the idea that somehow
the United States is trying to oppress him that, can help bolster international and domestic support. Sure, he does maintain some
supporters, primarily those who maintain support from the state, but that support has been reduced, continues to be reduced. One of the things we
saw from the protests yesterday was that these were not upper class and middle-class protests.
[14:15:00] These are protests from the lower classes as well, the traditional masses who have now turned against the regime. They don't have
food to eat and medicine. So, this is really a broad-based time, probably the greatest threat to his rule he's faced since he's been in office.
GORANI: And lastly, Juan Guaido, is he the legitimate President of Venezuela?
FARNSWORTH: According the Venezuelan constitution, if there's no President, then the head of the National Assembly is the interim President
to organize new elections. The reason people think there's no President is because Maduro ran an election in May of 2018 that basically he himself
coronated. It was not free, it was not fair. So that's the precipitating date by which people said he's no longer a legitimate President.
Therefore, the head of the national assembly takes over. So, this idea that this coup or some sort of intervention from abroad, I don't think that
dog hunts, to use an expression. Nonetheless, it is very complicated and is going to have to be sorted out by the Venezuelan people themselves.
GORANI: All right. Eric Farnsworth, thanks so much for doing this. Always appreciate your analysis.
FARNSWORTH: Thanks for having me.
GORANI: A lot more coming up. More on this story. Also, an exclusive interview with Russia's deputy foreign minister. He'll be talking to CNN.
He's asked if he thinks Trump is a Russian agent. We'll tell you what his reply was.
Also, a stark warning from Airbus. If the U.K. crashes out of the EU without a deal, Airbus says it will need to make some harmful decisions.
Harmful not necessarily to Airbus, but perhaps to the U.K. We'll be right back.
GORANI: Well, more on Venezuela's power struggle from another angle. Russia is a long-time backer of President Nicolas Maduro, whose legitimacy
is now being challenged. Our Fred Pleitgen spoke with Russia's deputy foreign minister about Venezuela, among other things. Fred is joining me
now live from Moscow. What did the Deputy Foreign Minister of Russia say about what's happening inside Venezuela to you?
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Not surprisingly, he was squarely on the side of Nicolas Maduro. He said it's
no secret Russia is an ally of Maduro. In fact, tonight there was a phone call between Vladimir Putin and Maduro. Once again, Vladimir Putin pledged
his support for Nicolas Maduro and his government. So. it's no surprise that the deputy foreign minister criticized the United States for its
posture and its position in saying that the U.S. was, quote, pouring gas into the fire. Let's listen in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PLEITGEN: Do you think that there's the danger that the U.S. could intervene in Venezuela, and what do you think that would mean?
[14:20:00] SERGEI RYABKOV, DEPUTY FOREIGN MINISTER OF RUSSIA: Yes, I truly feel there are dangerous signs of something going on along these lines. We
warn everyone, not just the U.S., but some others who may entertain these ideas, from this type of action. The resort to military power would be
catastrophic. It would be a huge -- another huge blow to the international system. We face now a scenario that may lead to that type of action. The
resort to military power would be catastrophic. It would be a huge -- another huge blow to the international system. We face now a scenario that
may lead to further bled shed -- bloodshed in Venezuela. We ask the international community to refrain from actions and try not to, you know,
meddle. That would be a terrible thing. The government in Venezuela should be given the chance to continue dialogue. I know the situation is a
dramatic one. But, so what. Is it just because of this that others should go there and think of using military power? I think it will only deepen
PLEITGEN: President Trump just recognized the head of parliament as the real interim President. Do you consider that meddling?
RYABKOV: For sure. I mean, it's just pouring, you know, gas on the fire. It equals to this. We have said what we think on this formally through the
statement of the Russian foreign minister, which is out there. It is a strong statement. We, you know, do not try to sugar coat anything. This
is a very, very dangerous moment, and everyone should show utmost responsibility.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PLEITGEN: So, there you have the pretty clear position from the Russian side. Of course, there's a lot of influence in Venezuela. They even sent
two strategic bombers over to Venezuela a few months ago.
GORANI: And also, in terms of influence, they have a lot of influence in Syria as well. And you asked him about Iran and how much -- and whether or
not they consider Iran to be a Russian ally inside Syria. What did he say?
PLEITGEN: Yes, that was by far, I think, the most surprising thing they heard from the Russians today. One of the things, of course, we've been
hearing over the past couple of months, really years, was that Russia, Turkey, and Iran were basically going to be the countries that were going
to decide the future of Syria and that Iran and Russia, of course, are fighting essentially on the same side. But the deputy foreign minister
told me when it comes to security, they don't consider the Iranians their allies. Here's what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PLEITGEN: You're Iran's ally on the ground, aren't you in Syria?
RYABKOV: I wouldn't use this type of words to describe where we are with Iran. We are working together with them. They were very helpful when we
convened a National Congress of the People of Syria in Sochi. But we do not see at any given moment completely eye to eye on what happens.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PLEITGEN: So, they have a very clear commitment from the Russians, also to Israel's security. The Russians also claiming that the Israelis know
exactly that the Russians stand behind them and say they're in communications with the Americans as well.
GORANI: And what I found interesting is you asked him that one question that I think a lot of people would want to ask anyone at a high level in
Russia, which is, is Trump basically an agent of your country? I presume he denied it, obviously. But how did he respond to that?
PLEITGEN: Yes, I mean, absolutely, of course he denied it. I wouldn't say he was taken aback by the question, but he did think that the thought of
that was somewhat outrageous, as he put it. Let's listen in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PLEITGEN: Sort of questioning whether President Trump is an agent of Russia. What do you make of that?
RYABKOV: I mean, it's completely, completely out of touch with anything that could be conceived as, you know, anywhere close to the reality. I'm
amazed. I'm embarrassed by what I see and hear from the U.S.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[14:25:00] PLEITGEN: The other thing I asked him, Hala, is, you know, with the fact that U.S./Russian relations are still so bad, despite the fact
that President Trump obviously wants to improve them, whether Russians are disappointed in President Trump. He said they aren't. He said he believes
a lot of the heat coming from America comes from those opposed to President Trump.
GORANI: Fascinating. Thanks very much. Fred Pleitgen with that exclusive interview in Moscow. We will hear more from Fred in the coming hour.
One of the sharpest Brexit warnings to date has now come from Airbus. The aircraft manufacturer says it may move future business out of the U.K. if
the country crashes out of the European Union. In the event of a no-deal Brexit, Airbus' CEO says, "potentially harmful decisions would have to be
made. It could impact business in the U.K. because, of course, it's a cooperative corporation." Our CNN business reporter Hadas Gold is in Davos
at the world economic forum. Tell us more about what Airbus is saying. Are they essentially saying that if there's no deal, that the part of the
company that has operated with the help of the U.K., that they would not hesitate to shift some of that activity away from Britain?
HADAS GOLD, CNN BUSINESS REPORTER: Yes, Hala, this is a really unusual video message that was really strong from that CEO. He was pretty much
threatening if there was a no-deal Brexit, they would leave the United Kingdom. This would be a huge issue because Airbus employees, at least
14,000 people in the United Kingdom, and thousands more based off of their supply chain. This is clearly putting pressure on Theresa May and all the
politicians to get their acts together and really make a plan for Brexit. Tom enders say that he encouraged Theresa May and the other politicians to
not listen to the Brexiteers' madness, which says they'll not move and always be here. He said they are wrong and that they would potentially
leave the United Kingdom if there was a no-deal Brexit.
GORANI: And leaving as in leaving some of the manufacturing facilities, shifting them elsewhere?
GOLD: Yes, leaving their factories. He said that a lot of countries are clamoring, fighting to get their business, to have them move into their
countries. So, he's really throwing out -- this is a really strong sort of threat that he's giving to the United Kingdom, telling them get your act
together on Brexit, otherwise literally tens of thousands of people could be out of a job in the United Kingdom.
GORANI: Some hard-core Brexit supporters would call that project fear, but it's more and more often that we're hearing this from big business leaders.
Ford is also saying a no-deal Brexit will cost them a lot of money and potentially hurt business.
GOLD: Yes, and Sony has also just announced they're moving their headquarters to Amsterdam because of the uncertainty over Brexit. We're
seeing more and more companies -- just today we saw from Land Rover/Jaguar they're going to extend the shutdown of their factories for another week
because of the uncertainty over what will happen with Brexit and their supply chains with the borders, customs checks. Things that could be held
This is the business community really gearing up for a no-deal Brexit and steeling themselves, spending millions, billions of dollars on these
preparations because they're taking it very seriously.
GORANI: But you're at Davos. You're around the big corporate bosses and the world's billionaires. Are they saying these things but then privately
saying, oh, but the U.K. will never allow itself to fall off a cliff without a deal, or are they genuinely concerned that even if accidently,
potentially, they could just slip into some disastrous scenario, like leaving the EU without any deal in place?
GOLD: Hala, I have to say they seem genuinely concerned. This is really something they don't like. They don't like the idea of a no-deal Brexit.
They want to avoid it. In fact, they don't like Brexit at all. I haven't heard honestly one pro Brexit voice speak to me directly yet. In fact, an
audience at a panel today was asked whether they would want a second referendum on Brexit. The answer was pretty overwhelming. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK CARNEY, GOVERNOR OF THE BANK OF ENGLAND: I think the point I would make is there's a limited amount that many businesses can do to prepare for
if there are going to be substantial delays on the logistical side. Obviously, these would eventually be worked out over time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: That was the Governor of the Bank of England, who's issued many, many dire warnings before.
GOLD: Yes, and actually, there was a moment in that panel where the audience was asked whether they'd like a second referendum and, in fact,
the entire audience pretty much raised their hands. Mark Carney abstained. He did not raise his hand.
[14:30:00] We're hearing from a lot of world leaders today. The Prime Minister, Angela Merkel gave a speech where she really was saying she was
going to work until the last minute to try to keep this exit orderly. We've heard it described potentially as a rock rolling off the Dover
cliffs. There's a lot of dire warnings coming out of Davos, coming out of these business leaders, these politicians, these academic leaders about
what a no-deal Brexit could mean to the United Kingdom and could mean to really the economy across Europe and across the world. It's not looking
very positive. This is all putting a lot more pressure on Theresa May and on the politicians in the United Kingdom to get everything together. As we
know, time is ticking down closer and closer to March 29th.
GORANI: Absolutely. March 29th. And January 29th, which is next Tuesday, we will be anchoring a series of special programs. Perhaps you'll be back
for that. Parliament will be voting on a number of measures. One of them could force the government to go to Brussels and ask for an extension.
We'll see if that goes through.
Hadas Gold, in Davos, thanks very much.
Still to come tonight, we're just minutes away from a Senate vote that could end the U.S. government shutdown. We'll tell you why today's effort
to get the government open again, though, might just be doomed.
Plus this --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TROY SEARS, TRUMP SUPPORTER: I think it's a waste of time and money. And it's causing way more problems than it's helping anything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: As the shutdown rolls on, are Trump supporters standing by their man? We'll be right back.
GORANI: It is -- it is 2:32 p.m. on the East Coast in the United States. Any minute, the U.S. Senate is going to vote on two bills that could, if
they pass, end the 34-day-old U.S. government shutdown.
There's a Republican proposal that would reopen the government and fund Trump's border wall. There's a Democratic measure that has already passed
the House. It contains no wall funding.
Here's the thing, though. Neither is going to pass. The two votes are really just political theater. Stephen Collinson, I believe, can join me
Are we going to Stephen?
No. We are going to Stephen in just a moment. SO we're going to cover that vote a little bit later.
However, let's talk a little bit about the impact of this government shutdown on some federal workers. Air transport workers are warning of
unprecedented problems as the shutdown drags on.
An association of air traffic controllers, pilots, and flight attendants issued a statement, citing growing safety concerns. They said there is so
much uncertainty that they cannot predict when the entire commercial aviation system might break.
The number of TSA workers calling out sick has doubled from a year ago, and some are leaving their jobs altogether, rather than continue working
The city of Atlanta has special concerns. It's hosting one of the biggest sporting events in the world in just 10 days, and tens of thousands of
people attending the Super Bowl will be traveling through Atlanta's airport, which is already the world's busiest, by the way.
Let's bring in John Selden. He's the general manager of Hartsfield-Jackson International Airport.
Thank you for joining us. Let's talk a little bit about the situation now at the airport as the shutdown drags on. How are waiting lines? How is
that affecting the general functioning of the airport?
JOHN SELDEN, GENERAL MANAGER, HARTSFIELD-JACKSON INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT: So, Hala, good afternoon from Atlanta. But right now, and for the past few
days, we've been operating as normal. Normal TSA wait times have been 15 minutes to 20 minutes. Passengers are moving through very smoothly. All
the normal procedures have been in place. And we are running an excellent operation these days.
[14:35:15] GORANI: And how is that? Because with the increased sick-outs or calls from TSA workers calling in sick double the number the previous
year, how are you able to maintain a smooth-running operation at this stage?
SELDEN: So at this point, the TSA has flown in some additional officers to support us here in Atlanta. And we are working with our airline partners
to supplement their staff where they can perform jobs of divestiture, which is to make the passenger before they go through the screening have their
shoes off, their belt off, their computer out. And those duties are being performed by airline employees, where normally they would be performed by
TSA employees. So those people are being used at checkpoints now.
GORANI: OK. So you're supplementing the TSA staff with other workers. And the Super Bowl is in 10 days. I read you're expecting in one day
SELDEN: The morning -- the game will end somewhere around 11:00 p.m. on Sunday night. And we expect that following day to be around 110,000 people
will have to pass through our TSA checkpoint.
Our record here in Atlanta is at 90,000. On a given day, we usually run about 65,000 to 70,000 people through our checkpoint.
GORANI: And so what impact could the prolonged shutdown have on that?
SELDEN: So the TSA is also committed to bring additional resources in to support the event, but the sick-out could cause other issues that even with
the additional forces, we may not have sufficient forces to provide a level of customer service to our customers, i.e., the extended wait times. The
wait times might grow to some significant wait times here at Atlanta before you can board your flight.
GORANI: And what would you call a significant wait time?
SELDEN: One hour plus to get through the checkpoint.
GORANI: And obviously this is having an impact on morale, I imagine.
SELDEN: It is making life more difficult here to have a normal customer experience. It is impacting our passengers. They have to get to the
airport much earlier. And then to stand in line longer is also impactful to the experience of traveling through Atlanta's airport and the most
busiest airport in the world.
GORANI: And I think I meant the morale of TSA workers. I mean, they're going to probably miss a second paycheck this Friday.
SELDEN: We anticipate at this point that they will not be paid this Saturday, which is when they would get their second paycheck. And there
are other financial institutions and institutions around the city of Atlanta that are doing everything they can to help these employees, whether
it's food, parking, transportation, gasoline.
The city is rising to the occasion and supporting our federal employees as best we can in every way we can to ensure that we mitigate the impact of
this shutdown as much as possible.
GORANI: And once the shutdown is resolved and the government reopens, how quickly would you snap back to normal staffing levels and not have to rely
on airline employees, for instance, to help with those lines of passengers?
SELDEN: And that's a very good question because we anticipate -- there is the possibility that some of these employees that have not been paid for a
month possibly have found other employment throughout the city here. And some may not come back, but we know the TSA is training people here in
Georgia, in Glynco, Georgia, their academy is there.
So we expect to wrap -- to pop back very quickly to our normal operation based on, either having 95, 98 percent of the staff return or almost all of
them come back. If not, the TSA will supplement that with trainees that they have in the training pipeline.
GORANI: All right. Well, good luck to you, John Selden, the manager of Atlanta Hartsfield Airport there with the Super Bowl, especially, and
110,000 passengers expected to pass through.
Thanks so much for joining us. Appreciate it.
Well, let's get back to Washington. White House reporter, Stephen Collinson joins me now. We were talking about these two competing
proposals to end this shutdown. Neither of them is expected to pass. So the question is, what is the point of them at this stage?
STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Right, Hala. As you say, there's a Republican bill that enshrines the president's offer made at the
weekend, which the Democrats have already rejected. And then there's a Democratic bill that doesn't include wall funding, which the Republicans
have rejected already.
So they both need 60 votes to pass. That's not going to happen. It's going to be a little interesting to see how many Republicans vote for the
Democratic bill as well as the Republican bill. We think there'll be a number of those more moderate Republicans who want to get the government
open. So in the short term, this is not going to bring the end of this impasse any closer.
[14:40:09] But this being the Senate, it's a strange and arcane place. There's some thinking that once you get everybody on the record with a show
vote of what they're against, that could open up some avenues for Senators to talk behind the scenes and perhaps the move to get towards some kind of
compromise, at least, in the Senate could take place. That, of course, then relies how Speaker Nancy Pelosi, the Democratic house speaker, and
President Trump getting on board.
So it could be a case of two steps back and one step forward, but we're still a long way away from ending the shutdown.
GORANI: -- kind of staked his reputation as president, as the man who will keep his promise to fund a border wall. That, after all, was basically,
almost the leitmotif of his campaign. Where is compromise here? Because you either fund the wall or you don't.
COLLINSON: It's very difficult to see. Normally in a government shutdown situation, it's a row over a budget or a financial number or raising the
debt ceiling. That means there's a number on one side and there's a number on the other and you can come to the middle.
The wall is existential for Donald Trump. It's why a lot of people voted for him in the first place. Many people on the right believe that his own
re-election chances would be badly hit if he has to climb down in this dispute.
And on the other side, Nancy Pelosi, the house speaker, has said a wall would be immoral, it's offensive to Democrats who believe that this is an
un-American way to approach immigration, which in itself is fundamental to the founding values of this country. So you can see why it's very
difficult to see a compromise.
There is a few rumors going around Capitol Hill today that some Republican senators might try to persuade the president to open up the government in
return for a guarantee to talk for a number of weeks about a wider border package. That could potentially allow him to say that he got money for his
wall and Democrats to say that he didn't get money for his wall. That's where the compromise in the end is going to be. It's going to be a classic
It's just a question of how long it takes to get to that point and how much pain there needs to be on the president and to a lesser extent on Democrats
to make them move towards that compromise.
GORANI: All right. A classic congressional fudge. It's not a chocolate bar. It's a thing.
COLLINSON: That's right.
GORANI: Stephen Collinson, thank you very much. We'll keep our eye, of course, on that and speak soon. Thank you.
The longer the shutdown drags on, the deeper the pain for hundreds of thousands of government workers. They're missing a second paycheck this
week, as we've been discussing. Many of them are turning to foodbanks as they struggle to feed families and pay bills.
Now, the prospect of better times helped propel Mr. Trump into office, so after seeing all the pain that the shutdown is causing, are his supporters
still supporting him?
CNN's Vanessa Yurkevich is in the U.S. state of Michigan in the heart of Trump country. What are Trump supporters telling you about who they blame
for this shutdown?
VANESSA YURKEVICH, CNN DIGITAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Hala. Yes, that's right. We're in a suburb just north of Detroit, Michigan. And this area
is interesting because they were really struggling after the recession. But in 2015, the local economy started to pick up a little bit. And
President Trump also started to pick up support at that time when he announced his candidacy.
This county that we're in, Macomb County, overwhelmingly supported the president. They helped put him in office. So we wanted to come to town
and talk to those supporters and ask them what they thought about the president right now and how the shutdown was playing into their feelings.
YURKEVICH: There's a split of opinion on lane 10.
SEARS: She's not taking the right side about being a Trump supporter.
YURKEVICH: Troy is a Trump supporter. His bowling partner, Chelsea, is not.
SEARS: He's not scared. He'll get jobs done that we need to get done, you know. He's not afraid to stand up for our country.
CHELSEA CLARK, MACOMB COUNTY, MICHIGAN RESIDENT: I'm kind of terrified to tell people that I'm not a Trump supporter because they go crazy.
YURKEVICH: You obviously -- you don't agree?
CLARK: No, no, not at all -- no. I feel like the shutdown has definitely lasted too long.
YURKEVICH: The pair are bowling with their children at the local alley in Macomb County.
Obama won here twice, but Trump flipped the county in 2016, winning by more than 11 points.
But what the president has done recently has both of them unhappy.
YURKEVICH: Do you think the shutdown is worth the wall?
SEARS: No, I do not think that. No, I think it's a waste of time and money, and it's causing way more problems than it's helping anything.
[14:45:05] CLARK: It's definitely not worth a wall for the government to be completely shut down for this.
YURKEVICH: But just down the road is Robert Rasch, who works in the auto industry and also runs a family clothing business. He says both jobs are
doing well thanks to hard work and President Trump.
ROBERT RASCH, TRUMP SUPPORTER: We see growth in the United States, we see growth here in our town. This used to be the home -- the Motor City -- the
capital of tool and dye -- the tool and dye industry, the automotive industry, and it's starting to finally come back.
YURKEVICH: And he likes that the president isn't backing down on his wall, even if it means shutting down the government.
RASCH: You have to do what you have to do. It's something that is necessary. To come to the United States, you have to come the right way.
YURKEVICH: Do you think that there is anything that the president could do that would make you shy away from him at all?
RASCH: No, because you know what? I am -- I've only been around 54 years but I just think to take that position, God bless him.
YURKEVICH: Is there anything the president could do to put him in a better light in your eyes?
MARK ASTOR, MACOMB COUNTY, MICHIGAN RESIDENT: Leave, step down.
YURKEVICH: In another part of the county over a plate of goulash, Democrat Mark Astor is eager to talk about the shutdown.
YURKEVICH: Do you see this being resolved anytime soon?
ASTOR: I don't. You know, like I say, he's that stubborn and I'm glad Schumer and Pelosi are pushing it so hard to him. I really am.
YURKEVICH: Do you think that they should give in at some point?
ASTOR: No, I wouldn't, just for what Trump has said even in his campaign. All along he was saying Mexico's going to pay for it, Mexico is going to
pay for it. Have at it, bud. Have at it.
YURKEVICH: And one thing we've heard from people in this town, in this very bowling alley, Hala, is that they're all about Americans supporting
other Americans. Local businesses here in town, like the local yoga studio, is offering free workout classes to federal employees. And even
the county hospital, Hala, is offering to waive co-pays for federal employees here in town.
GORANI: All right. Well, people -- good people are trying to help as these government employees continue to suffer without a paycheck for this
CNN's Vanessa Yurkevich in Michigan, thank you very much for joining us.
So he was Scotland's first minister until just a few years ago. Now Alex Salmond has been charged with some serious criminal offenses, charges that
he is denying. We'll bring you that story, next.
GORANI: Some sad news this evening amid fading hopes the search for a missing plane carrying footballer, Emiliano Salas, has been called off.
Salas' plane went missing over the English Channel on Monday while flying from Nantes in France to join his new club Cardiff City.
Officials say the decision to end the search was difficult, saying the chances of survival are extremely remote.
[14:50:08] Sala and the pilot, David Ibbotson, were the only two people on board.
Well, for years, he was the leading face of the Scottish independence campaign. We've interviewed him many times on CNN. But today Alex Salmond
is facing some very serious criminal charges.
Nina dos Santos joins me now with this story. What are the charges?
NINA DOS SANTOS, CNN EUROPE EDITOR: Yes, they are serious criminal charges. We're talking about 14 charges in total that were unveiled in a
court hearing Edinburgh earlier on today. Two charges of attempted rape, nine charges of sexual assault, two of indecent assault, Hala, and one of
breach of the peace.
Now, Salmond did not enter a plea in court. It appears he was released on bail, but he did address the media outside the courthouse and vowed
vigorously to defend his name, quote, "To the utmost," saying that he was innocent of any criminality.
Obviously for contempt of court reasons, we have to be careful about our reporting in the United Kingdom, but really, there isn't a huge amount of
information anyway that has come out of this closed hearing. We don't know what has been alleged. We don't know how many alleged victims there are.
We don't know about the dates of these allegations either.
GORANI: Do we know about the dates of when future proceedings will take place?
DOS SANTOS: We do know that according to the Scottish legal system, there should be another hearing pretty soon, but that date hasn't yet been
Alex Salmond was arrested yesterday, interviewed by police yesterday, and, of course, appeared in court today. And that is where we learned of these
14 charges, Hala.
GORANI: And he's a huge name in the U.K. I mean, he may not be a household name.
DOS SANTOS: And in Scotland.
GORANI: Of course in Scotland. I mean, the face of the -- of the Scottish independence referendum. And the push for Scottish independence from the
U.K. His political career had already faded, but what does this do now?
DOS SANTOS: His political career -- his political career began to fade, obviously, very abruptly when, of course, the U.K. and Scotland voted in
favor of staying inside the United Kingdom back in 2014. You'll remember one of two difficult referendum that David Cameron, the former conservative
prime minister, decided to call during his political career.
And obviously, Alex Salmond had been leading the Scottish National Party for seven years before 2014, so between 2007 and 2014. He really
spearheaded this movement that culminated in that referendum, although the Scottish people, during that referendum, rejected independence.
Now, obviously, since then, his protege, Nicola Sturgeon, has become the Scottish first minister. And the handling of these allegations here of
sexual misconduct that had been levied a while ago against Alex Salmond, one again, he has vigorously denied, that has caused a rift between
Sturgeon and Salmond.
And also, could have major implications for when the Scottish National Party may want to revive their wish to hold another referendum on
membership of the United Kingdom.
Now, Nicola Sturgeon was -- she was asked by the media for comment on these charges levied against her. Predecessor, she said it would be
inappropriate for her to comment at the moment. Hala.
GORANI: All right. Nina, thanks very much.
A quick break. We'll be right back.
GORANI: Pope Francis is marking world youth day with a -- with a visit to Panama. And he offered some thoughts about the migrant caravan traveling
from Central America to the United States. He said people are simply seeking a better future and that the church must facilitate a dialogue to
help overcome fears and suspicions.
[14:55:10] Back at the Vatican, the elite force that keeps Pope Francis safe is making a change. Here's Delia Gallagher.
DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: It's a once in a lifetime moment. After more than a century, the Vatican Swiss Guards are getting new
helmets. The Swiss Guard headquarters at the Vatican on Tuesday was abuzz, unpacking the first wave of 150 new helmets just arrived from Switzerland
as they prepare to wear them for the first time.
The distinctive head gear called a Morion has gone through various changes in the 500 years since the founding of the Swiss Guards, the elite army
that protects the pope.
NICOLAS ALBERT, SWISS GUARD: This is the back and this is the front.
GALLAGHER: The previous 19th century version was made of metal, which Swiss Guard Nicolas Albert says was uncomfortable, especially when the hot
roman sun beat down for hours, scorching guards' skin. The new model is U.V. ray resistant and made of PVC, with hidden air vents to keep the
ALBERT: A lot of them were quite looking forward to wear them because they didn't really like the old helmets. But yes, you wear what you get.
GALLAGHER: The 21st century design was created by Swiss engineer Peter Portman and the 3D printing company, which scans the 16th century original
to create a prototype, which is then molded in PVC and painted with a water-based U.V. resistant paint. It takes just one day to make one
helmet, whereas the metal model took days.
The helmets cost about a thousand dollars each, paid for by private funds from donors, like American businessman Jack Boyd Smith and his wife Laura,
who say they were happy to be part of such a historic change.
JACK BOYD SMITH, DONOR: I paid for the helmets. I think it's exciting. Change is always good. And it's going to be new and modern, but it'll
still conform with the old guard, so to speak.
GALLAGHER: The Swiss Guards tell me that it's actually a myth that Michelangelo designed their uniforms. They are from the renaissance, but
it was actually the popes at that time who decided on the vibrant reds, blues, and yellows that make these uniforms such a standout today.
Pope Francis, the guards say, has not weighed in yet on their change of helmet, a small tweak in a centuries' old tradition as the Vatican steps
slowly but surely into the 21st century.
Delia Gallagher, CNN, Rome.
GORANI: Thanks for watching. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is next.