Return to Transcripts main page

HALA GORANI TONIGHT

Trump: "America First" Doesn't Mean "America Along"; Trump Denies Report He Tried To Fire Mueller In June; Report: Dutch Intel Warned U.S. About Hacking; Alexei Navalny Speaks To CNN In Exclusive Interview; Trump To World Leaders, Do Business With The U.S; President Edrogan Slams U.S. Backing Of Kurds In Syria; Will "America First" Hurt Consumers?. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired January 26, 2018 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[15:00:17]

HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. Live from CNN London, happy Friday. I'm Hala Gorani.

Tonight, U.S. president and CEO of America, Donald Trump, says his country is open for business. We get the reaction from his big speech in Davos.

Back at home, reports that the president tried to fire the man in charge of the Russia investigation. We are live in Washington.

And the art of the selfie, I speak to the director of Washington's National Portrait Gallery about Google's new app. We had a lot of fun with it. You

may recognize that face as well.

Now let's start the show. For decades as a businessman Donald Trump was shunned by the Davos community, but now as American president, he was given

a level of fanfare rarely seen at the World Economic Forum.

(VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: The president was here to sell the United States with one message, come and do business in my country.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: America is the place to do business so come to America where you can innovate, create, and

build. I believe in America. As president of the United States, I will always put America first just like the leaders of other countries should

put their country first also. But America first does not mean America alone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: Also, this was far from those raucous campaign-style speeches, but they knew that Trump, it has to be said, sticking to the teleprompter. But

when it was over in a chat with the leader of the forum, he went off script deriding the news media again and that prompted some boos and hisses.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRESIDENT TRUMP: I've always seem to get for whatever reason a disproportionate amount of press or media, and throughout my whole life,

somebody will explain someday why, but I have always gotten along and as a businessman, I was always treated really well by the press.

You know, the numbers speak, and things happen, but I have always really get a very good press and it was not until I became a politician that I

realized how nasty, how mean, how vicious, and how fake the press can be as the cameras are going off in the back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: And the cameras did not go off. He has had that you use that line before while he was live on television.

Abby Phillip is in Davos with more on how the president's speech is being received and this was much more, Abby, conventional, presidential speech

you'd expect at a forum like Davos.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right. Just like the president, sort of presentation, was a little bit mix. He spoke from the

teleprompter was very unscripted and later went a little bit off script and was the Donald Trump that we are often more used to seeing on the world

stage.

The reaction from the crowd was also a little bit mixed as well. Polite applause to a lot of the comments the president was making in his speech,

but then some boos and hisses at some key moments including that moment when he called out the press as fake news.

You know, this is an interesting time for President Trump. He is going into his second year and about a year ago when he was coming into this

presidency as a candidate, he had spent so much time on the campaign trail, castigating these very same people as part of a corrupt global elite.

But today at Davos they welcomed him in a way that he was pretty happy with. There was that brass band that you just played, some long lines to

enter the room where he was going to be speaking, and crowds of people just sort of waiting around to see him walking in the hallways at Davos.

You know, a lot of the folks are business leaders here this week, and they are generally happy with a lot of the economic policies that the Trump

administration has put forward. They like the tax cuts. They like the cutting in of regulations, but at the same time. there are a lot of

outstanding questions still.

This is a president who has pulled out of the Paris climate agreement, something that a lot of these CEOs are very concerned about climate change,

and also on dawn still is the fate of these major trade deals including NAFTA and the TPP and others.

I think a lot of people are just sort of in wait-and-see mode about what is really going to go on with the Trump administration going forward in terms

of their actions and not just his words.

GORANI: And there were some few raised eyebrows consider getting back into the Pacific Trade Pact, if it was a better deal for the U.S. There is some

mix -- I mean, I wonder what world leaders, heads of government, what are they making of what he's been saying just in the last 24 hours. It's been

indirect contradiction to some of the things he said during the campaign.

[15:05:12] PHILLIP: That's right and I think one of the things that world leaders have realized over the course of the last years that sometimes you

have to just take what the president says in stride and wait and see what his ministration actually carries out, and I think that is where people are

with these trade deals.

He said he would be willing to go back to TPP perhaps if you got a good deal. A senior administration official said this morning that that's

always been his position that perhaps if in the future they could renegotiate something better maybe they would rejoin.

But the question is what is better, and I think nobody really knows what that means for this administration or whether they'd be willing to go

there. I think so far it just seems like for some of the world leaders out there. They are cautiously optimistic that this administration is still

willing to stand up for America, make America great again.

But also, not entirely going to throw out the old-world order as Trump seemed to promise when he was coming in the door.

GORANI: Well, this is by definition the global 1 percent gathered there and he was the main attraction, no doubt about that. Abby Phillip, thanks

so much for joining us from Davos.

Let's get more on the economics of the speech. Richard Quest is in the snowy Swiss Alps. So first of all, you've spoken to CEOs and business

leaders, how have they reacted to Donald Trump?

RICHARD QUEST, CNN ANCHOR, "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS": I think you can draw that line neatly down the middle, Hala. They are very pleased with what

they see as the economic benefits of the administration, the growth, the deregulation, the tax reform package, the greater profits that will flow as

a result.

On the other side, they are very concerned by things like the prospect of protectionism, rouse geopolitical risks, North Korea and the like. So,

they are constantly balancing the two.

But when you get a day like today and the reaction like today, and a stock market that's record levels, well, they -- the weight very firmly comes

down on that they are more pleased than not.

GORANI: Well, a few years ago in Davos, nobody believed the man would be elected president. Many believed there is no way he could win the

Republican primary and he did. Now it's sort of a victory lap for him, isn't it? Because he wasn't necessarily part of that highflying crowd

before.

Even though he was a successful real estate and entrepreneur, he wasn't kind of in that European 1 percent private jet flying type. Now he's

coming in as U.S. president. You know, it's victory lap for him.

QUEST: I know. I would say he was in that 1 percent. He certainly had a private jet. He had a 757 so I would say yes, but to your point --

GORANI: No, what I mean is he shunned by that crowd as being brash and not part of their -- not that he did not have the funds, he did have a jet

obviously, yes.

QUEST: Right. And the reason why is he wasn't perceived as an intellectual.

GORANI: Right.

QUEST: He is not thought of as a part of the intelligentsia, the elite. He's not into policy. Remember, whatever you may think about this place,

Hala, the people who come here, the white badges as they are known -- absolutely.

At all levels into policy, whether it's an NGO, CEO, a government minister, and that's -- I mean, he would espouse policy. He would expand on it. He

would pontificate on it, but he was never involved in the policy making apparatus, and that's the difference.

That is why he was shunned. He was thought of as maybe goes, perhaps novo, but certainly not because -- it was really because he was not involved in

the deep thinking.

GORANI: What was your main takeaway from this week in Davos? You have been every year for many years.

QUEST: Put Donald Trump to one side because that was so generous. I don't think we will see that (inaudible) even maybe becomes. What really got me

was up there, Hala. Up there is the Promenade. Now the Promenade is where all the corporations, the banks, the consultants, they take over all the

shops.

They rebrand them. They turn them into polity houses. They have seminars. Hala, this year it felt like policy Las Vegas. It was just a mass of

people. It's fashionable to say Davos isn't what it used to be and that's usually the clarion call of the old Foggy. Well, tonight, I think I am

that old Foggy.

GORANI: All right. Richard Quest, thanks very much. We'll, of course, watch "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" at the top of the hour live from Davos.

Now speaking of Donald Trump, the shadow of the Russia probe is stalking the president in Europe. Three top officials are brushing aside the report

that he tried to fire Special Counsel Robert Mueller all the way back in June of last year.

[15:10:10] And Jeff Zeleny reports, Mr. Trump is doing the same.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Trump dismissing bombshell reports that he ordered the firing of Special

Counsel Robert Mueller last June. A source confirms to CNN that Mr. Trump back down only after White House Counsel Don McGahn threatened to quit

rather than carry out the directive.

The "New York Times" reports that McGahn disagreed with the president's concerns over Mueller's potential conflicts of interest. The "New York

Times" also reporting that Mueller learned about the episode in recent months during interviews with current and former senior White House

officials while exploring whether Mr. Trump obstructed justice.

The president's attempt to push aside the special counsel came only weeks after Mueller was appointed on May 17th following Mr. Trump's controversial

firing of FBI director James Comey.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: Regardless of recommendation I was going to fire Comey. In fact, when I decided to just do it I said to myself, I said, you know

this Rusher thing with Trump and Russia is a made-up story.

ZELENY: Weeks later, the president's close friend, "Newsmax" CEO, Chris Ruddy, told PBS that Mr. Trump was actively considering firing Mueller as

well.

CHRIS RUDDY, CEO, "NEWSMAX": I think he is considering perhaps terminating the special counsel. I think he is weighing that option.

ZELENY: At that time the White House dismissed Ruddy's remarks, insisting he never spoke to the president regarding this issue. White House

spokeswoman, Sarah Sanders, telling reporters this the following day.

SARAH HUCKABEE SANDERS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY (via telephone): While the president has the right to, he has no intention to do so.

ZELENY: For the last seven months, the president and his aides have repeatedly denied that Mueller's job is at risk.

KELLYANNE CONWAY, COUNSELOR TO PRESIDENT TRUMP: The president has not even discussed that. That the president is not discussing firing Bob Mueller.

ZELENY: The revelation that the president had in fact attempted to oust Mueller raising bipartisan concern.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART (R), UTAH: If it is true, it would be concerning to me. If he did, his instincts were wrong, but the people

around him protected from those instincts.

SENATOR RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D), CONNECTICUT: These reports are absolutely stunning. Equally frightening because they show again that the president

will stop at nothing to protect himself.

ZELENY: White House lawyer, Ty Cobb, telling CNN, "We declined to comment out of respect for the office of the special counsel and its process."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GORANI: And that was Jeff Zeleny reporting. Let's get the legal view on this bombshell story. CNN legal analyst, Michael Zeldin joins me from

Washington. He is a former special assistant to Robert Mueller at the Justice Department. Would it be illegal for the president to fire Robert

Mueller if he wanted to?

MICHAEL ZELDIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: So, the way that it sets up there are specific regulations in what is called the Code of Federal Regulations, and

under the code of federal regulations that setup the independent counsel here, Special Counsel Mueller.

The way it works is that only the attorney general in this case is the deputy attorney general because the attorney general has had to recuse

himself because he worked on the campaign so only the deputy attorney general can fire Mueller and can only fire so for good cause.

So, in this case, in order for the president to fire Mueller, if you will, he would have himself or McGahn, his White House counsel order Rosenstein,

the deputy attorney general, to fire Mueller.

Now Rosenstein has said he has saw no good cause to fire Mueller when he testified recently. McGahn saw no reason to fire Mueller and so if the

president will try to do it --

GORANI: They couldn't do it unilaterally. He would have to do it through the Justice Department.

ZELDIN: Unless he got rid of all those regulations and then he has to find somebody -- as Rosenstein said he would quit before he fired thig guy with

no cause and so there is a succession order that goes with the deputy attorney general to the associate attorney general to a U.S. attorney. It

would be a Saturday night massacre like the Nixon firing of Archibald Cox.

GORANI: Sure. Now what are the -- how will this change the investigation because reportedly Robert Mueller has been aware for several months of the

fact that the president was thinking of firing him according to this report.

ZELDIN: That is right. And so, the crime of obstruction of justice is one that requires specific intent that the person who was trying to obstruct

justice did so with that intent that it was not accidental.

And so, what the information we learned from the "New York Times" provides is a bit of a window into the thinking of Donald Trump so that way Mueller

can analyze all of his acts under the sort of knowledge that he was in himself a target of the firing.

So, it does not create in of itself necessarily the obstruction of justice crime, but it does provide the opportunity to understand all the

president's action in relationship to this need to prove intent. So, I think it will help Mueller.

[15:15:00] GORANI: But fundamentally even if the conclusion of Robert Mueller is there was an attempt to obstruct the investigation in this case,

then what? What is then the legal timeline following that conclusion, if that conclusion is reached by Mueller and his team?

ZELDIN: Right. So, if Mueller reaches the conclusion that the president of the United States has obstructed justice and should be charged with that

offense. He has got two choices. He can, one, the most-safe choice is referred to the United States House of Representatives as a recommendation

for an Article of Impeachment.

That is what happened with Bill Clinton and Richard Nixon or he can make a determination whether or not the president of the United States can be

indicted by a criminal grand jury while he is in office.

No president has ever been indicted while in office and the Constitution is less than fully clear on whether that's allowed. So, Mueller have to make

a choice whether he wants to do a case of first impression indicting the president or do the traditional route referring into to the House of

Representatives for impeachment.

GORANI: The House of Representatives is currently, of course, controlled by the party of the president.

ZELDIN: That is right. And so, if Mueller felt that this president committed a crime that needed to be redressed, and he felt that the

Republican-controlled House of Representatives was not going to do anything about it, he might then be inclined to take the chance of indicting the

president while seated and see how the Supreme Court deals with it.

GORANI: Michael Zeldin, thanks so much for joining us shedding light on this story.

Well, Trump's former political rival is having problems of her own. Hillary Clinton is facing accusations that she harbored an accused sexual

harasser during her 2008 presidential campaign.

Clinton stepped in to save the job of her then faith advisor, Burns Strider. CNN has confirmed this report that first appeared in the "New

York Times." Now Strider was accused of sexually harassing a female subordinate.

He was reportedly sent to counseling while the woman was reassigned. At that time, campaign officials were troubled by Clinton's response. Strider

has not responded to CNN's request for statement.

But we did not get this from the law firm that represented the 2008 campaign saying, "To ensure a safe working environment, the campaign had a

process to address complaints of misconduct or harassment. When matters arose, they were reviewed in accordance with these policies and appropriate

action was taken. This complaint was no exception."

Still to come tonight, while hackers in Russia were trying to hack into the major American institutions, another country was watching them very

closely. We have details of a huge new revelation in the Russia hacking scandal.

And the opposition leader banned from the Russian election, Alexi Navalny is speaking out in an exclusive CNN interview. Why he said Vladimir Putin

is running scared. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:20:19]

GORANI: There is a new twist involving Russian meddling in the 2016 U.S. presidential election. According to a Dutch media report, Dutch

intelligence not only knew about Russian hackers all the way back in 2014 but literally had eyes on them, spying on them as they attempted to hack

the DNC, the White House, and the State Department.

Dutch intelligence alerted, in fact, its U.S. counterparts in 2015, stopping some of the attempts, but as we now know it, it didn't stop all of

them. Atika Shubert has our story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The Netherlands is, quote, "supplying the coal to the furnace" of anti-Russian hysteria.

That's according to the spokesperson for Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Now those remarks came in response to a Dutch media report that an intelligence agency in the Netherlands had observed on camera members of

Russia's Secret Service involved in the hacking of the U.S. Democratic National Committee.

(on camera): Here's what De Volkskrant and NOS reported from the Netherlands, in 2014, Dutch intelligence known as AIVD infiltrated

computers at a university building near Moscow's Red Square. At the time, they did not know they have struck at the heart of Cozy Bear, one of two

Russian hacking groups responsible for the DNC attack.

Here's a reconstruction by CNN affiliate, Dutch TV NOS, Dutch intelligence hacked not only the computers but also the hallway security camera and they

watched as 10 people at any one time moved in and out, some of them members of the Russian Service.

For more than a year, they watched silently as Cozy Bear attempted to infiltrate the State Department, the White House, and finally, the DNC.

The Dutch government reported what they saw back to the U.S. and the FBI successfully fighting off some of the attacks but not enough.

U.S. intelligence would later determine this was a coordinated Russian plan to interfere with the U.S. election.

(voice-over): Now CNN called AIVD for a response. They did not offer content, but according to that Dutch media report, the intelligence

filtration into Cozy Bear has been stopped, and it is not clear why.

Over the weekend, however, on a Dutch television show, the head of the AIVD, Robert Bertolli (ph), said that America at the moment is very

unpredictable.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Do you still share all the information that comes to you with your American colleagues because some

departments don't do that anymore?

ROBERT BERTHOLEE, HEAD OF DUTCH GENERAL INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY SERVICE (through translator): Well, I do not do that anymore. No matter what I do

not share all information with American or any other colleagues.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Are you extra careful in this situation because of the unstable climate in Washington?

BERTHOLEE (through translator): I am extra careful, yes.

(on camera): Dmitry Peskov, the Kremlin's spokesperson told reporters that he had seen no confirmation of the report from Dutch intelligence, and he

dismissed the news reports as, quote, "not very reliable." Atika Shubert, CNN, Berlin.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GORANI: I want to make sure you've seen side note to the Russia disinformation campaign during the U.S. election. Facebook has now told

Congress that Russian agents drew the attention of nearly 340,000 accounts by creating 129 events on the social network.

Now more than 62,000 of those Facebook accounts indicated they would attend and Facebook is saying it does not know how many of the event actually took

place, let alone how many people attended.

So, that's kind of the social media angle of the story, how much it played in to some of the propagation and distribution of shaky and fake news

stories.

Now speaking of Russia, the opposition leader there, Alexei Navalny, is calling for protests across his country on Sunday. He's been arrested

repeatedly and banned from running against Vladimir Putin.

But Navalny has not been muzzled and he is speaking exclusively to our Matthew Chance, who joins me now live from Moscow. What is he telling you,

Matthew?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, quite a lot of things, Hala. It was a very wide-ranging interview. We have not had

the opportunity to sit down with Alexei Navalny for some time, not least because he keeps getting arrested. He's been arrested three times in the

past 12 months and the expectation is that he could well be around. This is his expectation.

He could well be arrested in the next few days as well because he is planning a series of nationwide protests across Russia to protest against

the fact he is not being allowed to stand in the upcoming March 18th presidential elections against his arch political rival, Vladimir Putin, of

course, the incumbent Russian president.

And he says that hundreds of thousands of people are going to turn out in towns and cities across Russia to voice that opposition in what he says is

a rising tide of discontentment across Russia.

[15:25:13] Putin has been in power for 18 years, he says, and people are not prepared to wait another six years and then another six years after

that for political change, and so he is saying his mood is right for political change, not least because of the issue, the growing issue in this

country, which he has been campaigning against which is corruption. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEXEI NAVALNY, RUSSIAN OPPOSITION LEADER (through translator): The Putin regime is built on corruption and Putin himself is the most corrupt. His

family is directly involved in corruption. According to official data, over 20 percent of that population lives below the poverty line and people

link the obvious, why are we so poor because there's still so much.

CHANCE: Regardless of the popularity of that issue and you have been prevented from standing in these forthcoming presidential elections. Now

do you think that Vladimir Putin is genuinely concerned or fearful of you as a political opponent?

NAVALNY (through translator): He's scared of all real competition. We see in these elections that he only allowed those to run who do not even resist

to not even do any campaigning. When I saw that we are actually fighting for people's vote, they got scared.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHANCE: Well, Alexei Navalny also said it was time to start the process of rebuilding the battered relationship between Russia and the West

specifically, the United States. He said it wasn't a particular problem to do that. He knew what he would do if he were to become president and that

would be to end the war in Ukraine.

Of course, Russia has been sanctioned internationally by the E.U. and the United States for its activities in Ukraine, including its annexation of

Crimea in 2014. He also said that Russia should stop using hybrid warfare techniques to, for instance, hack the countries and to meddle in their

elections -- Hala.

GORANI: All right. Matthew Chance with that exclusive interview with Alexei Navalny. Thanks very much.

What about what's happening in Paris? The city and the suburbs have been transformed by a surge of record-breaking rain, more extreme weather there.

Take a look at images from a suburb outside the city on Friday.

Despite a lull in the rain within Paris, the rivers levels are still rising since it burst its banks earlier this week. Look at the statues there on

some of the bridges in Paris, almost completely submerged.

The world famous, Louvre Art Museum, has partially closed one of its wings and plans are in place in case the situation gets worse to close more parts

of the Louvre, and have a big basement and there are issues there with some of the art store there as well. They may have to be moved if it gets

worse.

Still to come tonight, America first does not mean America alone. Donald Trump makes a big sales pitch to world leaders in Davos. Their reaction to

his remarks on international trade and much more.

NATO allies Turkey lashes out at the U.S. over their very different views of Kurdish militia in Syria. We will have the view from Ankara.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:30:50] HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: President Trump returns to Washington just a few hours from now. He's in the air, flying right into a

firestorm of controversy over another big revelation reported in the Russia investigation. Multiple reports now say Mr. Trump ordered Special Counsel

Robert Mueller fired, and that that happened last summer, and that Mueller is fully aware of it. But backed down only after a White House counsel

threatened to resign. Now, the President brushed that off in Davos as fake news and touted the benefits instead of investing in America.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The world is witnessing the resurgence of a strong and prosperous America. I'm here to deliver a

simple message: there has never been a better time to hire, to build, to invest, and to grow in the United States. America is open for business and

we are competitive once again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: Well, let's get some perspective on Mr. Trump's economic sales pitch. We're joined by former Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd. He's

currently President of the Asia Society, thanks for being with us. Well, we are hearing a call on, you know, directed at world leaders and business

leaders to invest in America. But this is just a few days after he imposed very high tariffs on certain goods mainly producing countries like China

and South Korea. What did you make of this speech?

KEVIN RUDD, FORMER PRIME MINISTER OF AUSTRALIA: Well, I think, given the performance and perception of President Trump so far, it was a solid strong

pitch in terms of America's competitive economic credentials. But you're right to say, this will be measured against a protectionist turn to what

the administration has done so far. First of all, we've seen, of course, 12 months ago, the decision to abandon the Trans-Pacific Partnership, but

most recently, the tariff actions against China. And what we don't know about those actions against washing machines and against solar panels, is

where that will lead in terms of retaliatory action by other countries in the world, which are manufacturing those goods, and by China itself, and do

we end up hitting in the direction of a trade war?

GORANI: And then he also said which surprised many people including myself. You know, TPP, the Trans-Pacific trade pact that he pulled the

U.S. out of, if it's really negotiated to benefit America a little bit more, we might consider joining again. Did that confuse you?

RUDD: I think, more to the point, it's a complicated message for the so- called circle TPP 11. That's the other 11 countries, who have sustained the original TPP agreement through Prime Minister Abe's leadership from

Japan, have sought to, as it were, preserved it, amend it slightly, so that the TPP 11 will then go ahead and we think sign this in March. And now, we

have this message from President Trump. Of course, what we don't know is, what does he mean by amendments? Are these smaller amendments? Capital

amendments? I think it leaves a certain people in the world scratching their heads. Perhaps it was a message designed to sound free trade in a

free trade environment like Davos from representing the substance of what he intends.

GORANI: But it seems that though -- right. But the Pacific Rim countries seem to be quite happy, just going in alone now. I mean, you're seeing

that in many parts of the world whether it's geostrategic, political, diplomatic, where the U.S. is pulling away, other countries are filling the

vacuum.

RUDD: I think the great danger here before we even touch on the security agenda is what happens to the fabric of the global trade architecture. We

-- this has taken, you know, three-quarters of a century to build. And it's underpinned some after global economic growth. Not only is the WTO

Doha Round dead in the water, the major original agreement such as the Trans-Pacific Partnership are dying, NAFTA is still under challenge. And

so, what do we end up with, as a great retreat to protectionism and I fear (INAUDIBLE). And where does that go longer term? You just got to look at

our economic history to say he's out strangling the arteries of free trade. Global growth begins to collapse.

[15:35:02]GORANI: But these go against the message that Donald -- I mean, what would -- what are world leaders now most likely to do? Because, I

mean, I think everyone agrees that a trade war, that protectionist strict policies are not, you know, conducive to growth. How do you -- if you're a

world leader, you were Prime Minister of Australia, how are other world leaders, business leaders heads of state in government to manage this new

unpredictable president?

RUDD: I think the response by countries around the world is to put maximum effort into two areas. One is to build up and sustain regional free trade

agreements to the extent that you can. Hence, the enormous effort by the TPP 11 to preserve what they've done. And second, to do what you can with

other bilateral agreements with other economies other than United States, given you're not going to get a bilateral free trade agreement with the

U.S. through any transcend. But what does all this lead to in the end both on questions of the trade architecture and more broadly, it's

fragmentation? And I'm not sure that's good in terms of global growth.

GORANI: True. That was -- that was the point I was -- it was the point I was making. The U.S. is retreating and then you have smaller groups of

countries banding together and continuing to trade to come to some sort of agreement to keep free trade flowing. I mean, this means that the global

system is, as you said so, rightly, fragmenting, once again.

RUDD: Well, global order is currently under great stress. We've just talked about the economic architecture through trade. But look at the

other dimensions in terms of threats to global security and the extent to which the normal global security architecture is working to handle those

challenges and the answer is, not. Go to the global environmental architecture through climate change and you have U.S. as a way of

comprehensive withdrawal. So this is a period of enormous stress on the pillars of the global architecture. And my appeal as someone who has been

Prime Minister of Australia, but head of the U.S.-based think tank is, let us think through carefully and particularly our friends in Washington, how

you actually put this thing back together again? And not just with bits of sticky tape and bits of sticking plaster, but something that holds,

otherwise, the future will, in fact, be worse than the past.

GORANI: All right. And, I think more people need to reap the benefits of it all as well. Thank you so much, Kevin Rudd, for joining us from the

United States on this. And we were speaking of the U.S. foreign policy and the U.S.'s approach to the world under Donald Trump, well, there is a

widening rift between two NATO allies. And that is the United States and Turkey. The Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan slammed Washington on

Friday for supporting Kurdish militia in Syria. Turkey launched an incursion of its own into Syria nearly a week ago, targeting Kurds who hold

the town of Afrin. This map shows all the parties in the Region, if you could make it out, but this is what Syria looks like today in terms of

influence. You can see how complex the situation is.

President Erdogan visited a military operation center in a Turkish Town near the Syrian border on Thursday. The Kurds are still working closely

with the U.S. against the ISIS terrorist groups. So, the fact though this is a proxy battle between these two NATO allies. We're joined now by

Gulnur Aybet, the Senior Advisor to the Turkish President Erdogan, and she is in Ankara. So, President Erdogan had said he wants to push the Kurdish

forces as far as Iraq. This is all-out-war.

GULNUR AYBET, SENIOR ADVISOR OF TURKISH PRESIDENT: Well, look, Turkish objective in launching Operation Olive Branch have been very clear. This

is three folds: First of all, we want to stop attacks coming from this terrorist group, the YPG, which is the same as the PKK, into our southern

provinces. Secondly, we want to prevent a contiguous terror zone adjacent to our 911 kilometer border with Syria. And thirdly, we would like to come

up with a -- we would like to see a serious time to bring stability and sustainable peace to Syria with the political solution that leads the

territorial integrity and sovereignty of Syria intact.

GORANI: But you are -- you are -- yourself violating this territorial integrity of Syria. Turkish groups are going into Northern Syria and

targeting Kurdish militia.

AYBET: No, we're not.

GORANI: But they are.

AYBET: No, we're not.

GORANI: But they are.

AYBET: No, we're not. They're not Kurdish militia. They're not Kurdish militia. They're terrorists.

GORANI: Right.

AYBET: And even though --

GORANI: Whatever you want to call it you are -- you are -- you are crossing the border into Syria. It is a fact,

AYBET: Listen to me. No, no, no. Hala, they've said that the Spokeswomen of the State Department yesterday said that Turkey is going in there after

the PKK. Which is a recognized terrorist organization by the United States in the European Union --

GORANI: But that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying you crossed the border into Syria violating the territorial integrity of the country. Now,

whether you call them terrorists or militia.

AYBET: No, no. We did that under Article 51 of the U.N. charter. And we notified the U.N. So, we're completely under the rights given to us under

international law, the right of self-defense to do this. And we also quoted several counterterrorist U.N. Security Council resolutions.

[15:40:11] And also, I might remind you that the NATO Secretary General and our NATO allies said that Turkey has every legal right to defend itself in

launching this operation.

GORANI: Right. And so, you flew all the way to Iraqi border pushing this militia back. That is also within your rights to protect yourself?

AYBET: Well, the United States since May have made us three promises. First of all, the promise is, to stop arming the YPG and the PKK, same

thing. Second, they promised us that the YPG, PKK would move east of the Euphrates out of Mambij. And thirdly, they said they would take back all

the weapons they've given to the PKK, YPG. Now, there's quite a thousand truckloads of weapons, most of them heavy that haven't been accounted for.

So, America has not fulfilled either of those three promises and we're still waiting for them to fulfill those promises. And if they don't, then

we will push forward with the objectives of this military operation, unfortunately.

GORANI: So, the White House -- the White House said that they -- that President Trump and President Erdogan spoke and that President Trump quite

clearly said to President Erdogan, "Please de-escalate this situation, don't be so heavy-handed against this Kurdish fighters." And then we heard

from Ankara, and sources in Ankara that that's not how the conversation went. Can you tell us what was said on that phone call?

AYBET: Well, on the phone call, the United -- President Trump reiterated that they would like a solution to this. They reiterated his concerns

about this. But he did not really mention escalating violence. Also, he did not just mention destructive or false rhetoric coming out of Turkey.

He didn't mention about the concerns they had about criticism of the U.S. and President Erdogan told them that, as long as they keep arming the YPG,

unfortunately, in Turkish public opinion, America -- anti-America is going to be on the rise. So, it's really up to the Americans to do something

about that.

Also, the President Edrogan told President Trump in that conversation that the United States must stop arming the YPG. And President Trump, in an

earlier phone call to President Erdogan on the 24th of November, said that he would personally give orders for the ending of the arming of the YPG and

President Trump, again, said that we will stop arming the YPG. But somehow that has not been reflected in the White House transcript.

GORANI: All right. Thank you very much for joining us, Gulnur Aybet. Always a pleasure speaking to you from Ankara.

AYBET: Thanks.

GORANI: Still to come tonight and the battle of big ideas being debated at Davos. World protectionism or globalization? (INAUDIBLE) we'll be right

back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:45:01] GORANI: The President of the United States was in Davos today. The global elites, he tells his supporters he will protect them against,

were all gathered to listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I believe in America. As President of the United States, I will always put America first just like the leaders of other countries should

put their country first also.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: Putting America first, once again, the central message to those in attendance and to the millions watching around the world. Employing

perhaps that his predecessors didn't, they willfully place America second, third or last? And this comes a few days after Donald Trump made good on a

pledge to use protectionist tools against exports.

On Tuesday, he imposed hefty tariffs on certain goods. So, if you're in America and planning on buying a washing machine or a solar panel, it could

soon cost you a lot more.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: It's a very big industry and you're going to have a lot of plants built in the United States that were thinking of coming but they would have

never come unless we did this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: Well the point is to make those imports mainly from China and South Korea more expensive to favor domestic producers of those consumer

goods.

But consider this, practically any economist worth his or her SALT will tell you trade wars ultimately produce more negative effect than positive.

One of the world's top economist, Ken Rogoff told me this week that if the president goes any further the very people he promised to help will

probably suffer the most.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEN ROGOFF, PROFESSOR, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: He isn't doing it across the board the way he threatened to do. I mean my goodness, if he put a tariff

on all Chinese imports, it would shock consumers especially low-income consumers to buy a lot of these things.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: After all, you really buy a $10.00 t-shirt at target that is made in America. I know. I did my shopping there last week in Atlanta and if

it had been U.S. made, it's safe to say it have to shell out a bit more than that.

At Davos this year, the main theme discussed by top leaders and CEOs flying into the snowy mountain resort in their private jets is the fractured world

we now live in. Consider Brexit for instance, for its critics, it's also about putting up barriers. I spoke to Liam Fox, the U.K.'s International

Trade Secretary this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: With these exports are doing so well on that it's not necessarily a result of the lower and weaker pound. Why then does the U.K. need to

spend $20 million of public money on just simply an ad campaign to encourage companies to export more? I mean, it seems like you wouldn't

need to do that.

LIAM FOX, U.K.'S INTERNATIONAL TRADE SECRETARY: Because our exporting isn't strong as it should be in the United Kingdom historically. We're

exporting about 20 percent of our GDP which if you compare it to Germany's 47 has been a historically relatively prove effort.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: But here's the thing, Germany export is almost half its GDP while it is in the European Union. So critics of Brexit would point to that

exact statistic as a reason to stay in. Why would leaving this union to negotiate dozens, possibly hundreds of bilateral agreement, something that

could take years be better than staying in block that has already gone through that process?

So in Davos, as in every part of the globe, that battle of ideas will continue to be fought. Are walls and tariffs the answer? Or shall all

these global elites instead implement measures that will help more people reap the benefits of global growth?

That's our "Consider This." More to come including their defining features of half decade or so but now, selfies are infused with a little bit of

history. We'll explain, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:50:17] GORANI: All this week we've been showing you the lesser known aspect of Tokyo. Today, we go to a music shop where you will find a big

dose of nostalgia, we love those.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RYOTARO AOKI, MUSIC WRITER: I'm Ryotaro Aoki, I'm a music writer in Tokyo. I recover Japanese music, Japanese pop music, and sort of underground

music. I'm also a musician. I have a band called "Dupe Writer" and I play guitar and sing, and so I'm very active in the music scene here.

We're at Waltz in Nakameguro, the cassette store that (INAUDIBLE) but mostly cassette tapes. Cassettes now, they're starting to get very popular

among (INAUDIBLE) in underground music fan. I think people want sort of a physical thing that they can sort of look at and enjoy something to own.

And so I think (INAUDIBLE) with cassette is that the sound is analog and they also look very cool.

Personally, I'm at the age where I was probably the last wave of kids that gotten a certain experience with cassette tapes a little bit, so the

feeling is really familiar. I imagine for someone who's a little younger who've sort of grew up in the whole digital download age, sort of the idea

of having some piece of music that you can sort of hold is very sort of refreshing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): It has its own unique sound. I think it kind of look (INAUDIBLE) cassette plays from the 1960s and the

1970s in the store. Down to the cassette tape from that time played by players from that time did such a great sound at a punching event. I think

this is the first experience for many people.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GORANI: I miss the cassette players, I really do. If you're on social media, you've probably seen a recent trend on your feed, I'm talking about

this, selfies with an artistic twist. There's our Jake Tapper, for instance, trying it out.

It's all part of Google's new feature on its arts and culture app which matches you to a historical painting from a museum somewhere in the world.

I've spoke with the director of Washington's National Portrait Gallery, Kim Sajet about its pros and its cons.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KIM SAJET, DIRECTOR, WASHINGTON NATIONAL PORTRAIT GALLERY: Looking at the upside, what's not to love, right? You get to do a selfie, you get to see

an amazing work of art by a fabulous artist and ideally, you get to explore major collections around the world and museum. So -- I mean, that's the

upside.

I think the downside is and my questioning really is, so what? Does it get you any further? Do you learn a little bit more about the person you're

being paired with? Does it tell you a little bit about history or culture or even yourself? How you react to it tells you a lot about where you are

at that moment of time.

GORANI: So Kim, I'm going to put to you some of the celebrity doppelgangers out there and some of them are close, others are epic failed.

Madonna was paired with a head of a young man, a Dutch 17th Centuries (INAUDIBLE) from the National Gallery of Art in Washington. Interesting.

SAJET: Well I saw this and I think at surface level you say, "All right, that's a nice picture of a young boy." But in fact, when I did a little

bit of research, it is in fact in the National Gallery of Art and you'll note that it says "recto" which means there's something on the back.

GORANI: Yes.

SAJET: It turns out that on the back there are a whole load drawings of figures and particularly a landscape of Jesus Christ meeting Mary

Magdalene. So I don't know if that changes anything for Madonna but in fact, this is a religious picture. She's obviously a Madonna and it's from

the 17th Century. So maybe there's a little bit more of a link when you go down a little deeper.

GORANI: Kumail Nanjiani who is one of the actors in the Big Fix, I love him. This is a portrait by Mohammed Almas (INAUDIBLE) from the Barjeel Art

Foundation which is in the UAE, in the Middle East in the Gulf. I like that one actually.

SAJET: Well -- so I find this super fascinating because I look this person up and he's still alive. So can you imagine apparently there's been at

least 30 million people downloading the app and ideally I guess this doppelganger has got a whole lot of people that now pertain to look like

him or have made that connection? So how would that feel?

GORANI: Now, Kristen Bell is an American actress. I have to say, no matter what research you've done behind this one, I don't think she'll be

happy about -- I don't know how on earth she just ended up with a bushy white mustache. She's a cute attractive woman.

[15:55:07] SAJET: She looks great. Well if it's any consolation, he was an amazing musician, he came from Germany but lived in the U.K. and made

popular -- well actually made classical music popular, sort of played the pops.

And one of the things I would say is that maybe we really do need to go past the surface appearances of these people and looking to what their

achievements have been to make us all feel a little better or worst depending on who you're paired with.

GORANI: Well I do like that because it does -- I mean, we'll get to mine in a moment, obviously everybody's going to be Googling or researching the

one they were paired with.

Jake Tapper, my colleague on CNN, from the Smithsonian National Portrait Gallery, Ronald Reagan. That is kind of cute.

SAJET: There you go. In our collection, it's actually a rather large picture, he's standing full length, 40th president of the United States, of

course, by Kinsler and I think it's actually quite a great picture. I hope Jake is happy with that. I think it's an interesting pairing given that

Jake talks a lot about politics and current issues of the day.

GORANI: And the one I got was -- I tried it twice, this was my second try, Perinton Man, the Museum of Arts and Sciences, a painting called the Blue

Coat. I was not unhappy with that one considering that some of my female friends got overweight men with beards. I thought I'll take this.

SAJET: I think she looks beautiful. So it turns out that her name was Kathleen Man, it is the daughter of the (INAUDIBLE). She was a designer

herself and actually created costumes for films. Some of her designs were in the V&A in London.

So I think you can feel good about being with someone who is obviously very creative, I think she's beautiful. So I would be pretty happy.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GORANI: I was pretty happy. Not bad. Now, forget rush hour, forget Black Friday, take a look at this chaos.

(VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: It is all because of Nutella. The French store, Intermarche dropped the price of a jar from $5.60 to $1.75. As a result, one employee

says around 200 people have lined up before the store even opened. The employee called the situation a real disaster.

For its part, Intermarche apologized to customers saying, it was surprised by the demand. Sorry, you don't take 70 percent off of Nutella and then

act surprised that people are riding for it.

Thanks for watching. Great weekend if it's your weekend. I'm Hala Gorani. QUEST MEANS BUSINESS is up next from Davos.

END