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HALA GORANI TONIGHT
Haitians React to Oxfam Scandal; Israel Police: Sufficient Evidence to Indict Netanyahu; Aid Agency Accused of Covering up Sex Scandal; MacLeod: UN Rape Cases could Total 60,000; CNN Goes inside Idlib after Deadly Airstrikes; Kim Jong-un's Praise for South Korea; High Winds Wreak Havoc at Winter Olympics; Fans Fight Bitter Cold at Winter Olympics. Aired 3-4p ET
Aired February 13, 2018 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HALA GORANI, CNN HOST (voice-over): Hello, everyone, thanks for being with us live from CNN London. I'm Hala Gorani.
Tonight a growing scandal.
Why didn't Oxfam do more to stop some of its staff from paying women for sex in Haiti?
This hour I'll put some of those tough questions to Oxfam International's executive director. She'll be joining me live in just a matter of minutes.
Plus CNN is on the ground in Port-au-Prince this hour where Oxfam workers allegedly preyed on some vulnerable victims after the 2010 earthquake.
Also coming up, Israeli police say there is now, quote, "sufficient evidence" against Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in two separate
What happens to him now?
We'll explore that as well but we begin with Oxfam's deepening sexual misconduct scandal. What we've learned about aid workers using prostitutes
in disaster zones is raising very serious questions, not only about the charity's future but of the aid sector as a whole.
Today, explosive new allegations against Oxfam. The former head of safeguarding says she reported wide-ranging sexual exploitation by its
staff all the way back in 2015 but that her bosses at Oxfam and the U.K. Charity Commission failed to act. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm thinking of the email that you wrote to your line manager in February 2015, where you talked about three new allegations in a
Do you remember those allegations?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, very much so. There was one of a woman being coerced to have sex and a humanitarian response by another aid worker.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This was a woman who was receiving Oxfam aid.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Another case, where a woman had been coerced to have sex in exchange for aid. And another one where it had come to our
attention that a member of staff had been struck off for sexual abuse and hadn't disclosed that.
We were then concerned about what he might be doing. And that was three allegations in one day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: The U.K. Charity Commission is denying ignoring her claims. Also new today, Oxfam admits that the head of human resources in Haiti was also
dismissed in the sex scandal. This is information coming to CNN.
All this on the same day Oxfam's international chairman is detained on corruption charges from his time as finance minister of Guatemala.
My next guest says she is heartbroken by it all. Winnie Byanyima joins me now. She's the executive director of Oxfam International. She is live in
Thanks so much for being with us. First question, obviously, on everyone's mind, how did Oxfam get to the point where some of its staff, according to
this whistleblower, who said she reported this behavior, coerced women into having sex for aid, paid prostitutes in villas paid for by Oxfam in Haiti?
How did we get here?
WINNIE BYANYIMA, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, OXFAM INTERNATIONAL: These accusations, these allegations, some of them which we are just hearing now,
some are things that happened in 2011 and we investigated. All of them are shocking. They are unacceptable behavior. They hurt me; they are contrary to our values.
And we apologize, have apologized for it. And we have taken steps and continue to take steps to make Oxfam the organization that lives up to its
GORANI: But before we get to the steps that you say the organization is taking, so that this never happens again, Penny Laurence, who was the
Oxfam deputy head, said in a statement, quote, "Concerns were raised about the behaviors staff in Chad as well as Haiti that we failed to adequately
You're saying Oxfam learned only recently of some of these allegations but these individuals, apparently, their behavior was known, especially the
head of mission in Haiti who was in Chad before.
BYANYIMA: No, I said some we are getting to know now but some we knew in 2011. We did know about these accusations. We did investigate and I want
to admit that the manner in which we carried out the investigation, at that time, would not pass the test today. Our procedure --
BYANYIMA: -- or ways of handling sexual misconduct today are much better as a result of what happened in Haiti.
We took steps, we improved our system. We are not where we want to be yet. But we are much better than we were in 2011 and I really regret and I'm
deeply hurt at what happened to those women in Haiti.
I feel for them. I want justice for them and we have sent our regional director to Haiti to explore and to see what we need to do for justice to
GORANI: But again, I want to get back to this particular individual, Roland van Hauwermeiren. He was in Chad. There was knowledge and there
were rumors and there were reports about some of his behavior there.
Yet he was sent from there to Haiti.
So did Oxfam not have any concern at that point that they were sending someone who had had questionable behavior before to a disaster zone like
BYANYIMA: You know there is a problem in the whole humanitarian system here. You see, when a disaster strikes. We humanitarians, our imperative
is to be on the spot immediately and to respond immediately, within three days.
This puts a lot of pressure on us to hire many people to take operations to scale to save lives. This mean that many times --
GORANI: I want to get to the wider point in a moment. But did you know specifically at Oxfam about this individual?
Rather than -- I get the wider point that you have to react quickly. I understand that. But this individual in particular day, did he -- there
were issues regarding his behavior in Chad and yet, despite that, he was sent to Haiti.
That is correct.
BYANYIMA: It did happen and that is why we have been apologetic about that happening and the head of our international department at that time, Penny
Laurence, has stepped down and taken responsibility. We regret that.
But the wider point, Hala, is that we need to have certification of humanitarian workers so that when we hire in at speed, we have people who
are vetted in advance. We do not have a certification system and we need to have it across our sector.
These are issues that we are going to take up with others.
GORANI: I get that but this is not something necessarily that would have prevented this behavior. The other question I have --
BYANYIMA: Of course it would if there was certification.
GORANI: -- he was already hired by Oxfam at this -- at the at the point in time when he was sent to Haiti.
The other thing is he left; he was forced to resign. We are also hearing from Oxfam that the head of human resources, of all people, was also
dismissed in 2011 and that the -- these two individuals were given recommendations by Oxfam and one of them, at least, took a job with Action
against Hunger in Bangladesh, which means they went on to have careers after this.
BYANYIMA: I must make a correction there, that after the people get references from their friends, from their colleagues, these are not
sanctioned by the organization. We cannot be responsible for people writing references for each other.
However, the more important issue there is that, when people have offended, we should have a system where we share information and they are not rehired
to go and re-offend.
Again, that is something we must build in our system, where we can share this information across this sector. It cannot be possible for one
organization to inform thousands and thousands of organizations worldwide, working in the humanitarian sector. We need, again, a systemwide response
and we are going to lead in our sector to put these things in place.
GORANI: But do you think Oxfam can recover?
Do you think that the reputation of this organization is a reputation that can -- that they can get can get back to a place where the organization is
not associated with this type of scandal?
BYANYIMA: Hala, we've been hurt. I'm personally hurt. I come from the women's movement. I know about powerlessness. I escaped a crisis country.
I know what abuse can do to someone.
But I know that Oxfam was -- will recover because these are a few people who have abused the power that they had and turned and abused the very
people they went to protect.
But the majority, the thousands of Oxfam staff around the world are saving lives, are helping people who are fleeing, giving food and water in the
most difficult places in South Sudan, in Chad, in Yemen, in Iraq. They are risking their lives every hour.
And this is --
GORANI: And that is an important point to make --
BYANYIMA: -- to do --
GORANI: -- and that is absolutely an important point to make. I covered the Haiti earthquake. I have covered some conflict zones as well --
GORANI: -- where humanitarians do tremendously important work. But the trust is broken now, right, because I think people will see organizations
now, they'll look at them with suspicion. We saw it with U.N. peacekeepers. We're seeing it now with Oxfam.
Is this it?
Or will more come out with Oxfam?
I mean are we likely to hear more stories?
BYANYIMA: Hala, I'm determined. I'm determined to restore this trust and I ask our supporters, our donors, those who believe in our mission, in
humanity, in the dignity of human life to trust us and to give us the space and the time to put in place the -- first of all, to build a culture and to
put in place the things that will stop people, come like that, coming --
GORANI: But will we hear more stories?
Because I think that is also what people are wondering, is this -- we heard the expression, the tip of the iceberg.
Is that what this is?
BYANYIMA: I can speak for the majority of the people in my organization. They are good people who go and risk their lives to save humanity.
However, there may be some more stories here and there that we will pick up.
What we have decided to do is to open ourselves up, to invite external people, experts who will help us to look back and look at the cases that we
investigated in the past, where we need to reopen them.
We are determined to reopen them and give justice to the victims. We are going then to look forward and see how to close all the loopholes that
bring in people who do not share our values.
GORANI: Sure, and it is possible therefore that more stories will emerge.
BYANYIMA: I cannot say yes or no to that question because, like I said, we have had many cases since we've strengthened our system in 2011.
Ironically, we have a better system for receiving complaints, a better whistleblowing system.
We have a safeguarding team and that has given our staff more comfort to come up and complain. We investigate. It those investigations were not
done well, we are ready to do them afresh.
If some people did not come up then and come up now, we are ready to listen to them. We will -- I welcome even new cases to come now. We are ready
to face them and to do justice.
GORANI: There are still Oxfam employees and ex-Oxfam employees who are speaking to the media on the ground, who are saying they are not
comfortable giving their name because they think there will be retribution if they talk.
So this system that you say was put in place to allow whistleblowers to come forward doesn't seem to have trickled down in terms of the trust to
the people who work on the ground, who, as you know, often, are local staff.
BYANYIMA: Well, we have been seeing the system picking up more complaints every year. It has been working. It may need to be strengthened further
to make it more confidential, to popularize it amongst particularly the people whom we deliver assistance to. There is work to do on that side and
we are doing it.
But it is working and every year we have seen more people willing to and complain. And complaining does not always mean that they are right but we
listen to them. We do not --
GORANI: -- it doesn't always mean they're listened to as well, as we saw with Helen Evans, for instance.
Do you take every complaint seriously now, when someone says, I have witnessed or I have heard or I have been the victim, is this taken
seriously every single time now?
BYANYIMA: It is. It is and we are going to do better. We are not where we want to be, Hala. I admit we are not where we want to be but we're
determined because women's rights, the rights of girls are at the center of what we do.
We can't be also the abusers of women and girls. We will not accept that in our organization. We will fight it, we will rout it out, we will build
to the culture of not tolerating any kind of abuse.
GORANI: And you -- if I could ask you the -- were you in Haiti after the earthquake or other disasters?
Is this something you ever picked up on, or were ever told about?
Is this something you ever suspected or is this completely coming as a surprise, some of what you are learning?
BYANYIMA: No, I joined the organization five years ago. This had already happened. It was my first time to hear about it. But I just want to
assure you that even my predecessor, and the ones before me have always intended to work in the best interest of Oxfam. I do not believe that
BYANYIMA: -- working with me at the senior leadership level could have told this. It just did not filter through to us and that's what I'm going
to take care of, to know that people are safe and can report and when they report, action is taken.
BYANYIMA: -- I get to know that it has --
GORANI: We can only wish you good luck in that. And as you mentioned, a lot of people are in need of aid and disaster response. Thank you very
much, Winnie Byanyima who's the executive director of Oxfam International. I really appreciate you taking the time this evening to speak with us.
BYANYIMA: Thank you for the opportunity.
GORANI: All right.
Now it is worth reminding you what Haiti was like just after the earthquake. It is literally the story that stayed with me the most. I
thought about it pretty much every day for a year, not because the suffering was greater than a war zone, for instance, but because of the
scale: 200,000 people killed, entire neighborhoods reduced to rubble.
A scramble to rescue trapped survivors, looting, an outbreak of disease, a place where it --
GORANI: -- where the alleged sex abuse took place. Haiti's president called this an extremely serious violation of human dignity. Cyril Vanier
is in Port-au-Prince and he joins me now like.
What has been the reaction where you are, then, Cyril, to all this?
CYRIL VANIER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hala, I would say the reaction has been anger but it has not been one of surprise. So when you address Haitians
and ask them what they think about this, to the extent that they actually know about this scandal, they will tell you it shows an incredible level of
hypocrisy and duplicity, because, after all, this is what they were saying to our team this morning.
These are the organizations that came into the country to do good and they ended up, some of them, doing harm. And they did it on purpose. So of
course people are angry. But people are not that surprised, because there is a general perception -- and I would call it a general knowledge because
this is borne out by fact -- that among the thousands and tens of thousands of aid workers who came to this island post-earthquake, some of them
exploited the vulnerability of Haitians to their advantage.
And this Oxfam case with the alleged prostitution is one example. But ask any Haitian and they will give you other examples. They know for instance
that the United Nations brought cholera to their island. They know there have also been accusations that the United Nations abused women and boys.
There have been accusations of funds being misused or not used in the way that they should have been. So there is quite a high level of mistrust and
defiance among Haitians toward the general population of international aid agencies.
So when you ask people here, they are angry but they are not that surprised.
GORANI: And what about the specific allegations concerning, has anyone come forward in Haiti, saying they know of this -- of this story?
Is this something that is being talked about kind of on a more micro level?
VANIER: No, not at all. In fact, the extent to which it is not being talked about on a micro level is, if you turn on the radio, which is how
Haiti get -- Haitians, most Haitians get their news, you will not hear about this on the radio. If you opened a newspaper today, you're not going
to read about it in the newspaper.
So, yes, the president came out with a statement. But there also many Haitians that I spoke to, that we spoke to, the CNN team, who simply did
not know about this scandal. It just has not risen to the level of national news in some parts of the population.
Now as for more details on who knew what when and did people come forward, we're trying to track down those people. It is actually very difficult to
find them. You are talking about, seven, eight years ago.
And we managed to speak to a former staff member of Oxfam, who worked for human resources in Oxfam Haiti at the time that this was going on. She
knew the Haitian drivers, who were shuttling the girls back and forth to the aid workers.
And they were telling her that this was going on. She pushed this up to the level of the regional Oxfam offices and nothing happened. In fact, the
cruel irony of it is that there was an unofficial rule that senior Haitian -- senior Haiti Oxfam people would handle those tougher HR questions.
And guess who those senior people were?
They were the very people who were getting girls brought to them and who were paying for this.
GORANI: All right, Cyril Vanier, we will keep our eye on this story. Thanks very much. I will be speaking to a former aid worker a little bit
later this hour.
Other stories after the break. Israel's prime minister addresses his nation just minutes after --
GORANI: -- major news breaks. Police now say there is sufficient evidence of corruption against Benjamin Netanyahu. We're live in Jerusalem.
Plus even babies in the hospital aren't spared the latest horrors of the Syrian war. We'll have a rare look inside one of the latest -- or I should
say one of the last rebel strongholds. We'll be right back.
GORANI: After months of investigation, Israeli police say there is now sufficient evidence to indict Benjamin Netanyahu in two corruption cases.
The prime minister responded to the news almost immediately and addressed the nation.
Let's bring in Oren Liebermann in Jerusalem for details.
So remind us and we'll get to the Netanyahu reaction but what cases here are we talking about?
OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So there have been two separate investigations where Netanyahu was named as a suspect, locally known as
case 1,000 and case 2,000.
In both cases, police said there is sufficient evidence to indict Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on charges of fraud, bribery and breach of
trust. In case 1,000 police say Netanyahu received gifts, including jewelry, cigars, champagne and more from overseas businessmen totaling 1
million shekels, which is roughly around $300,000.
In case 2,000 police say Netanyahu was working with a local Israeli newspaper publisher to get more favorable coverage in that newspaper in
exchange for hampering or limiting circulation of a rival newspaper.
Netanyahu fired back almost immediately. In fact, even before the police statement came out in what was obviously a written statement, speaking for
about 10 minutes. Here is part of what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL (through translator): I think about the good of the country not for personal reasons but for the
press, only for the country, and nothing will stop me from doing this, not even the attacks against me.
And believe me, they are never ending and therefore today isn't any different from any other days, which I have been through in the past 20
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIEBERMANN: So what happens now?
The entire investigation, all the work and the evidence that police have gathered is handed over to the attorney general. It is up to the attorney
general to decide whether to indict Netanyahu on these charges -- Hala.
GORANI: What happens to him politically now?
LIEBERMANN: And that is the big question. Legally, let's be specific about this, Netanyahu does not have to step down until he is convicted and
that conviction is upheld through Israel's entire appeals process. That process could theoretically take years.
But the political question is the far more interesting one. He could face public and political pressure to resign from within his coalition. It just
depends on how the political parties -- and there are a number of them -- see this all playing out.
Netanyahu is a proven winner in Israeli politics. He has won four elections but if he becomes a bigger liability to politicians in his own
party and others, they may decide it is time for him to go. That is the much bigger risk he faces right now.
So far we have not heard from any of the other political --
LIEBERMANN: -- parties but it will be their statements where we get a sense of how this all shakes out in Israel's domestic political system
GORANI: What about ordinary Israelis?
Because he's saying he's the victim, that he is constantly being attacked and that his haters want to bring him down. But do ordinary Israelis by
and large believe there is something to this?
It's two separate corruption cases.
LIEBERMANN: Let me make the comparison in this case and it is not a perfect comparison but it certainly works for understanding how this is
playing out with the public.
Let me make the comparison there to the U.S. and the investigation surrounding President Donald Trump and the language that Netanyahu has used
has in certain cases mirrored Trump.
There are those who have stood by Trump in the face of these investigations and those who see the investigations as more proof against him. And it is
very much the same thing here.
Netanyahu's loyalists see the investigations as a witch hunt, as a conspiracy against the prime minister, whereas those who were already
against the prime minister, or critical of him, see this as more proof against him and more reasons to dislike or even hate the prime minister.
It entrenches or it has entrenched the opinions people already have. In that sense, Hala, a very good question is how many opinions have actually
And I suspect we'll get a sense of that because I suspect there will be some polling on where the parties, the political parties, would stand, were
elections to be held right now.
GORANI: All right, Oren Liebermann in Jerusalem, thanks very much.
Her supporters say she's a hero because she's standing up to the Israeli occupation. Her critics say the Palestinian teenager Ahed Tamimi,
committed crimes and therefore she must pay the price. Now an Israeli military court is deciding her fate. But behind closed doors. We are not
privy to what is going on in this military court.
Her trial began today for the girl who's become the international face of Palestinian resistance after a video went viral of her slapping and kicking
Israeli soldiers outside of her West Bank home.
Tamimi is facing 12 charges, including aggravated assault. She just turned 17 in prison. The judge ordered journalists out of the courtroom and the
reason he did that was because he said it was in the girl's best interest.
Now Tamimi's attorney disagrees with that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GABY LASKY, LAWYER FOR AHED TAMIMI: The court decided today to close doors in (INAUDIBLE) trial because the court is afraid of people coming into
court and seeing what's happening. The systematic infringement of Palestinian children's rights and I, as a member of the -- she is the one
that shows all of us how their rights are being infringed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: That was Gaby Lasky, the lawyer of Ahed Tamimi, whose trial has started.
Now to new developments in South Africa's political crisis. The ruling party is demanding the resignation of President Jacob Zuma but he will not
go. He is refusing to leave. The African National Congress agreed today to recall Mr. Zuma as head of state. No word yet from Mr. Zuma who has
been clinging to power amid numerous allegations of corruption.
But the ANC says it expected him to respond tomorrow, Wednesday. The long, drawn-out political saga is taking a toll on the people of South Africa.
The country's economy is struggling; the reputation of the ANC is at risk. And many are simply exhausted of constant scandal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Honestly I think we've had enough of the whole corruption in South Africa. And I think Zuma stepping down will really
help us, you know, moving forward as a country. I think it's time for him to take a break.
As much as Mogave (ph) also, you know, served this country and Zuma has been here for nine years now, we (INAUDIBLE) really like to day
(INAUDIBLE). It's time for you to step down (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I really wouldn't say that I'm against him but I'm really hoping for change for the better, especially economy that move away
from joint status as well. The economy is really crushing around the table. Stability is ready to pick up. So, yes, just a South African
(INAUDIBLE) hoping for the better, eh?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE). For the sake of (INAUDIBLE), I think they must let him finish his (INAUDIBLE). But (INAUDIBLE) sake of the nation
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: A sampling of opinion there from South Africa. Coming up, we'll continue our convening of the Oxfam sex scandal and speak to a former
senior U.N. official who says that this could just be the tip of the iceberg.
Also this may be one of the last major battlefields in the Syrian war, major because there are many others. Some say it's the latest version of
hell. CNN was the first inside and we'll bring you an exclusive report from Idlib. Stay with us.
[15:30:46] HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Let's return now to our story. The crisis engulfing, one of the biggest international charities
here in the U.K. Oxfam, but it operates all around the world. As we've told you, Oxfam is being accused of covering up for staffers who paid
prostitutes in Haiti after the 2010 earthquake. And reports say, maybe have also done so earlier in the African nation of Chad, similar behavior,
unethical behavior. Oxfam is denying that it knew about it and covered it up. It is not by the way the only scandal to hit the charity. Oxfam's
international chairman has just been detained on suspected corruption charges from his time as finance minister of Guatemala. So unrelated to
this scandal and from the time previously when he was in the government in Guatemala.
I want to bring in Andrew MacLeod. He's a former aid worker and senior UN official. And he joins me here in London. Thanks for being with us.
You've made some - you've made some very disturbing comments and allegations about the behavior of UN aid workers in conflict and crisis on.
Could you tell us what those are?
ANDREW MACLEOD, FORMER AIDE WORKER AND SENIOR UN OFFICIAL: Well, we've estimated over the last decade, there were about 60,000 victims of sexual
exploitation and abuse at the hands of UN staff. It's an estimation.
GORANI: Sixty thousand.
MACLEOD: That's an estimation that comes directly from the UN's own numbers. 145 cases involving 311 victims in 2016 alone, just in
peacekeeping. That's what the secretary general says is part of his 2016 annual review. In 2017, he then said the problem isn't just in
peacekeeping. The problem is the entire UN system and probably bigger outside of peacekeeping. So there's 311 victims, double it to over 600
victims. Here in the U.K. and in the U.S., around about one in 10 victims of rape reported. If you assume one in 10 victims of rape report against
the UN, and I think it'll be a lot less. 611 victims represent 6,110 --
GORANI: That's your methodology to get to that.
MACLEOD: And I'm saying it's an estimation. It's not science, but it's based on their numbers.
GORANI: But is the staggering number, is it anywhere near the -- this is a side of a town. A small town.
MACLEOD: Yes, that's correct. And this is the problem. This problem is not Oxfam. This is problem is not Britain. This problem is in the entire
system. The system doesn't have the rigorous human resources systems for prevention, training, detection. And critically, prosecution. About the
only agency I know that systematically does hand off these over to police if this staff have been abusing, particularly children is Save the Children
in the U.K. No one else does it. And just look at Oxfam. For them to think that they didn't have to hand the dossier over to the police in
Haiti, staggering. But even more, if one of those prostitutes turns out to be a child, it could be a breach of either Belgian or UK6 tourism laws.
It's the breach of the law here. And even though -
GORANI: And when you say Belgium, it's because Roland van Hauwermeiren, the head of mission in Haiti is Belgian.
[15:35:02] MACLEOD: For three days now, I've been challenging Oxfam to hand the dossier over to Scotland Yard and to the Brussels Police. And
while they're saying we're taking everything seriously, they have still not gone on to the police to say, we're unsure if one of these prostitutes was
a child. We are therefore unsure if British law has been broken. Can you please investigate us?
GORANI: If you say that Save the Children UK is the only one that you're aware of - you're aware of that had these dossiers, doesn't mean that you
yourself have knowledge or have witnessed dossiers compiled for instance complaints lodged against certain individuals and that the charity sat on
GORANI: And can you name them?
MACLEOD: I won't name them here and now. But we know and you can Google it and see it that the aid industry is lit it for of the corpses of
whistleblowers who were chased at. If you'd go back to the "Whistleblower" movie starring Rachel Weisz about that brave American policewoman who blew
the whistle on the trafficking of the children, so the use of UN staff in Bosnia way back in the 1990s. The people who blew the whistle on the food
for sex scandal. The people have been blowing the whistle in Central African Republic. These are people should be getting medals of honor, but
instead they've been trimmed up. And I want to go back to the systematic problem, if I may.
GORANI: Yes, go ahead, because I do have a UN response I'd like to read specifically with regards to that 60,000.
MACLEOD: If we want to see real and meaningful change and win back the trust of the aid industry, people need to go to jail. Because since modern
economies western countries have developed six tourism laws, these people who are having sex particularly with children under the hospices or aid
umbrellas hovering countries like the Central African Republic have broken their domestic walls and they should be held to account here. And more
than that, the law says that you can be guilty of an offense if you aid abet and assist. When are we going to realize that turning a willful blind
eye for 30 years is aiding and abetting this --
GORANI: When you say wilful blind eye, that's really implying that people knew the gravity of the alleged crime and covered it up intentionally.
MACLEOD: Hala, it's Secretary General Kofi Annan, it's one of his biggest regrets not cracking down on the pedophilia. Ban Ki-moon says that.
That's 20 years of leadership just in those two men. And I say to people, don't believe a word I say. Google it and you'll be surprised for how long
this has been happening.
GORANI: And this is something you've witnessed in the time as an aid worker. And when you witnessed it, is this something you've brought up the
chain as well and said this is going on? And how were you treated?
MACLEOD: Not very well and in the end, I turned around in 2009 and I've put in my book, I cited quite clearly there with three reasons I left the
United Nations. Lack of effectiveness, lack of efficiency and lack of desire to be held accountable. A subject of opinion that I think on
balance the system is near hump. And thirdly, the value to respond to the institution as pedophilic, because here's the big problem, if I can have a
couple of seconds. Because we don't have a human resources system that effectively filters out these people and doesn't prosecute them. When now
a magnet for the dysfunctional. The British crime authorities have been warning since 1999 that as we crack down on pedophilia in a developed
world, the predatory pedophiles are now going to the developing world. The British authority's words not mine. Their chosen methodology to get access
to children is to join a children's charity. The warnings --
GORANI: So you need -- you need more of a system there to certainly investigate the past of some of the -- but let me -- I need to get to UN
response in. Because we put this to them directly. The estimate of 60,000 people potentially sexually molested abused, raped. And this is what they
-- this has come directly from the deputy spokesperson for the UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres, it reads, "Sexual harassment is a scourge that
affects every sector of society and the UN is doing its utmost to combat it. When it comes to humanitarian aid, we're working to ensure that no one
would carry out such as these things on our behalf. We'll pray on the vulnerable people who we are meant to serve. We have a policy of zero
tolerance regarding any such harassment. Perpetrators need to be held to account and victims need to be heard. They did not reference that number
specifically. This is the response from the UN."
MACLEOD: Hala you've been in this business a long time, you know that exact statement could have and probably would have been given by Kofi Annan
and Ban Ki-moon. What we need to see is actual change. Rather than saying a zero tolerance, demonstrate the zero tolerance. We need to put people in
jail. I've got a challenge now for the secretary general, in front of the whole world right now, make the declaration that the UN convention on
privileges and immunities does not apply for child sex tourism. Make the statement really clean. You will never assert immunity for a child sex
crime in front of any court.
[15:40:55] GORANI: I just want to get you on one thing, which is you and all the disaster zones and conflict areas you've been in me as well. I
have seen so much woodwork being done by aid workers. And I fear sometimes that this is getting lost a little bit, because I agree that we should
focus on those who commit crimes and those who ac unethically. Is there a worry there that by bringing all of this up, I'm not saying we shouldn't
talk about it, but did some people would just be so turned off by -- they'll say no matter what, I do or how much money I give, it will be
wasted or misappropriate.
MACLEOD: Hala, you're spot on. This is not an opportunity to cap aid. This is an opportunity to fix aid. But we've got to realize, it's now got
so big that we've let the bad apples in and I'm going to be -- I'm sorry to some of your viewers for what I'm about to say. It's summed up by an 11-
year-old girl in and said, "I didn't have breast yet, and he still raped me." We can't let this happen any longer. No more words here of
tolerance. Real zero tolerance.
GORANI: Thank you, Andrew MacLeod, for joining us. Really enlightening discussion and I know our viewers will have a lot of reaction to it. Thank
you so much.
Another conflict done that, goodness knows, we have misery there. Syria, even after nearly seven horrifying years of war, the level of violence can
still be shocking. The northern Idlib province is now the biggest territory not controlled by the government and it has been seeing intense
CNN is the first international network on the ground since warplanes bombed the area last week. Arwa Damon brings us this.
ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yasiv's tiny chest heaves with each breath. He was born during a week that even by Syria's
ungodly standards was especially punishing. His mother Hanan's body still trembles and that's not because he was born prematurely, it's because the
hospital he was at was bombed.
The footage from that night is a glimpsed into the magnitude of the horror, the fear. There were around 300 people, staff, patients in intensive care,
and the most precious and vulnerable.
This was one of the key remaining functioning hospitals in the area but nothing in Syria is sacred.
This is where they have the incubators for the babies.
Hanan remembers just grabbing Yasiv's fragile body, wrapping it in whatever she could find and running through the chaos. In a span of just five days,
six medical facilities in Idlib Province were targeted in airstrikes.
This is the lower level. This is the underground and this is where they used to do all of the main emergency surgeries and it's also where right
now they're storing whatever equipment they've managed to salvage. Staff here want to remain anonymous, the small center in Saraqib has already been
targeted twice this year.
That's what (INAUDIBLE) says, they announced online that they were closed and began operating in secret. Days before we arrived as doctors were
treating the wounded from an airstrike in a market, the facility was hit again. The death from the market were outside, now buried not in graves
but somewhere in the crater left behind.
This is a population that feels like it's on borrowed time. Fayeed Hatab was in a makeshift underground bunker with neighbors when an alleged
chlorine strike took place. He vomited, couldn't breathe and thought, "That's it, my number's up."
Luckily, many of the women and children here had fled just days before. The cue toxic shells impacted near an empty field.
There's still a little bit of sort of an accurate stench. Yes, it's been six days. Two members of the civil defense team who responded were also
affected. Rami remembers shaking uncontrollably, feeling like he was screaming, "Take off the mask" but no one could hear him. Mahamood's father
was among those treated in the toxic attack only to be killed within days in a strike as he was loading grain nearby. His almost matter of fact and
accepting Syria's inevitable faith, for those who refuse to leave their lands.
[15:45:05] The war here has long been a science of methodical cruelty as the world looks on and Syria endorsed one of the bloodiest weeks of this
Hannan watches her baby fight in one of the last remaining facilities where he even stands a chance. So, what kind of a world are these babies
fighting to live in?
Arwa Damon, CNN Idlib Province, Syria.
GORANI: Still to come tonight, warm words across the Korean border. Kim Jong-un has praised the South after delegations returns homes from the
Olympics. We'll be live in Pyeongchang.
GORANI: There are words that would have been unthinkable. A few weeks ago that Kim Jong-un, the North Korean leader has praised South Korea for its,
very impressive and sincere efforts to host the North's high level delegation during the opening of the Winter Olympics. That delegation is
now back in North Korea after the landmark three-day trip. Let's take you live to South Korea. Ivan Watson is in Pyeongchang.
Let's talk a little bit about these positive words, what -- as we heard from the North.
IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It appears the Olympic the Olympic afterglow continues for the North Koreans after their
delegation came down here to South Korea, the concerts, the taekwondo demonstrations, the games that are still going on. And after meeting with
his sister and the rest of the high level delegation, this went on to the front page of North Koreans state newspaper with Kim Jong-un saying that he
was very impressed by the hospitality from the South Koreans. And basically, as you said, about kind of this new spirit of reconciliation
that's in the air. That good sprite, that optimism does not extend to the U.S. and Japan. There's been fresh criticism coming from a senior official
in the North Korean foreign ministry accusing Japan and the U.S. of essentially being obstructionist and reckless and trying to hurt this new
period in inter-Korean relations.
There are some analysts that argue North Korea is trying to drive a wedge between South Korea and its U.S. and Japanese allies. Probably among them
some of the U.S. intelligence chiefs, Hala, who briefed the Senate intelligence committee, talking about threats to the U.S. around the world.
They did address the issue of North Korea. Here's what the head of the CIA had to say about North Korea and in particular Kim Yo Jong, the sister of
the North Korean leader who was part of that delegation that had -- or meetings with the South Korean president here in and around the Olympics.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[15:50:10] MIKE POMPEO, CIA DIRECTOR: The American people should all remember that Kim Yo Jong is the head of the Propaganda and Agitation
Department. There's no indication there's any strategic change in the outlook of Kim Jong-un and his desire to retain his capacity to threaten
the United States of America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATSON: North and South Korea may be talking, but North Korea and the U.S. clearly are not. Hala.
GORANI: So I want to talk about the weather which I normally don't do on this show. But I thought some of those poor snowboarders practically
hitting blown away and you got a -- you got a case of that too, Ivan, I hear.
WATSON: I got a taste of it just walking to this live position. I mean, the winds at this predawn hour are pretty intense. And this region is
famous not only for its cold weather, many South Koreans have talked to here say it's the coldest place in South Korea and I guess you're seeing
some pictures of me there. I was up at a wind farm above Pyeongchang. One thing that I did not know going into this is that the wind farm, that one
in particular, it generates energy for about 50,000 homes in nearby Gangneung where some of the Olympic venues are. In fact, for 60 percent of
the population there. And the Olympic organizing committee here, it claims that wind farms like this one and others are actually generating all of the
electricity needed, in fact a surplus for both the Olympic Games and the subsequent Para-Olympic Games generating up to 203 megawatts. So these are
-- if we can take them by the word, truly wind powered Olympics. The problem is, is it makes it kind of tough to do things like jump off of ski
jumps and snowboard and do slow them in some of these conditions. They've had to postpone a number of the events and some athletes have accused,
blamed the wind for accidents and injuries they've had out on the slopes. Also, it makes it tough to be a spectator. Hala.
GORANI: Yes, it sure does. Yes, next time I can't manage to jump -- or ski, I'll just wait them on the wind. Thanks very much. Ivan Watson in
Pyeongchang. And we're talking about that barely cold wind in Pyeongchang leading to a challenge for a lot of fans, as Ivan was mentioning. How do
you stay warm? Paula Hancocks tried to find out for us.
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This is the Olympics plaza. This is in Pyeongchang, South Korea. It's where the opening
ceremony for the Winter Olympics was held. It's also an area where fans are congregating and some of them going inside to watch big screens to see
the events that are ongoing now. This is also where some of the fans can buy tickets. There's not a lot of people here as you can see. We
understand from officials that they actually missed target. They've sold about 85.0 percent of tickets at this point. They wanted it to be higher.
But there are a couple of issues that they have to deal with. The cold for example, has been bitterly cold over recent days. Today is a little bit
better. And of course, the wind as well, not just affecting the fans, but also the athletes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're Canadian. We can handle this. It's a little windy, especially for biathlon where the shooting really is affected by the
wind, but not bad at all.
HANCOCKS: Lost have been with the cold and the winds. How are you coping with that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wear four and five layers, actually.
HANCOCKS: Some of the fans we've spoken to say that the atmosphere here is very good. But the Korean volunteers are being very helpful. And despite
the cold, they're determined to enjoy themselves.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As you can see, we are well prepared for it. So I'm fully loaded and I'm ready for the occasion.
HANCOCKS: How you feeling? How are you feeling with the cold?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's warmer than yesterday.
HANCOCKS: There has been plenty of politics in this Olympics. Some of the fans are saying, enough with the politics. Now, let's focus on the
Olympics. Paula Hancocks, CNN Pyeongchang, South Korea.
GORANI: We are going to take a quick break.
GORANI: It's not quite Valentine's Day, but in Great Britain, love is in the air. Prince Harry and his fiancee Meghan Markle made their first joint
trip to Scotland. Ann Stewart has that. Anna.
ANN STEWART, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Hala, it's a full official visit for Prince Harry and Meghan Markle. So far, it's taking them to Nottingham,
London, Cardigan, Wales and now, Edinburgh in Scotland. It's something of a crash course for Meghan Markle of the UK ahead of the royal wedding in
May. Now, today, they were going to Edinburgh Castle by lots of well wishes and a ministry band. And a local celebrity. Let me introduce to
you to Lance (INAUDIBLE) IV, pony here as the mascot for the royal arrangement of Scotland. The happy couple also have an opportunity to meet
lots of people in the crowd and we spoke to some of them about what they thought.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So many people. It was really nice seeing everybody.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was fantastic. It was such a surprise. We weren't expecting that too.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm an exchange from Canada in Sterling, Scotland. I'm just new here and she's visiting from Austria and we saw on like the
Twitter that they are coming here today, we're like, hey, we got to go to Edinburgh today. I really like Meghan's coat. It was really post-Scottish
and so stylish.
STEWART: Of course, as usual, there were lots of interest in what Meghan Markle was wearing. She was very on message for Scotland with a tartan
coat, which I can confirm worked by Burberry and a handbag by Strathberry, that Scottish brand. She wore once before. And so a huge sales uptick.
So we'll see in the hands of same Markle sparkle effect again. Hala.
GORANI: Anna Stewart, thank. I'm Hala Gorani. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is next.