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New South African President Faces Opposition; Outrage Over School Shooting. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired February 15, 2018 - 16:00:00   ET


RICHARD QUEST, ANCHOR, CNN: The high of the day, 290 points on the Dow- Jones Industrials. A gain of 1.1 north the fence as an impressive performance. The market that was done earlier and that's how you do it,

sir. That's how you bring trading to a close on Thursday, February the 15th.

South Africa, a new president, same problem. Cyril Ramaphosa faces a stagnant economy and a vocal opposition. We'll give analysis.

As the shares take flight, strong earnings, Chief Executive tells (us) why he is worried about Brexit and management changes he is introducing.

And there's a million people who are trying to get home from China's biggest holiday, we follow the migrant workers on a different journey.

The Index for now, now over 300 points. I am Richard Quest, live in the world's financial capital, New York City where it's 308 on the Dow. I

mean, Christmas.

Breaking news tonight. Soul searching, outrage and anger, more anger in the United States for the brutal calculated shooting rampage at a Florida

high school. We now know 17 people are dead -- 17 people are dead, 14 at least, are injured.

The alleged shooter has appeared in court a short while ago. He has been charged with 17 counts of premeditated murder. We're also learning that

law enforcement had been warned several times that the suspect could be a threat, reportedly left a comment on YouTube saying, "I am going to be a

professional school shooter." The FBI was alerted by a tip line back in September.

Now, the White House President Trump offered sympathy for the victims saying he promised to tackle mental health in the wake of the eight school

shootings so far this year. He did not mention the word "guns" in his remarks.


DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I want to speak now directly to America's children, especially those who feel lost, alone, confused or

even scared. I want you to know that you are never alone and you never will be.


QUEST: At least one of President Trump's own officials believes more needs to be done. The Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin appeared before Congress



STEVEN MNUCHIN, TREASURY SECRETARY: I will say personally, I think the gun violence, it's a tragedy what we have seen yesterday and I'd urge Congress

to look at these issues.


QUEST: So, Martin Savidge is in Pompano Beach in Florida. Before we talk about the arguments and the disagreements, please bring me up-to-date on

the investigation and particularly, Martin, what we know about those who are still injured.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CORRESPONDENT, CNN: Well, let's start with the investigation so far. There is no determination, at least by authorities

that they are publicly speaking of to give any kind of motive to why the shooter acted as he did.

The shooter has been identified as 19-year-old Nikolas Cruz. He had his first court appearance today. It was arraignment. He was in an orange

jumpsuit and it was a connection from the jail where he is being held to the courtroom where a judge read 17 counts of premeditated murder against


He did not say anything other than, "Yes ma'am," when acknowledging the judge and there was no entry of any kind of plea.

As to the injured, there are no six people that remain in the hospital. Three of them here and there are actually six more at another nearby

hospital. All of them are expected now to recover fully according to doctors. That is the good news. However, the doctors do say that a number

of those patients remain in critical condition, but again, they believe all those that survived after getting to the hospital, there were two that they

say were pronounced dead on arrival, but the remainder of those injured are expected to make a full recovery and that's where we are, Richard.

QUEST: All right, so now, let's talk about the details of what happened and the clarity that we are trying to seek, particularly, I think on this

question of the assailant's mental health.

SAVIDGE: Right. This is an issue that has been brought up from the get- go. It was brought up by his public defenders immediately after the hearing that was held for his arraignment, and at that time, his public

defender said that this is a young man who is aware of what he has done, who is remorseful for what he has done, who has suffered from serious

mental illness his entire life.

On top of that, another public defender described him as a broken child. So, clearly, they are setting up at least a legal defense based upon a

mental illness. This is some justification or some reasoning as to why the young man acted as he did. We do not know if there has been any medical

diagnosis, but very quickly, it has been picked up as you heard, the President talking about mental illness. The governor of the State of

Florida saying there is no way people with any kind of mental illness should have access to a gun, so that seems to be a recurrent them there.

QUEST: Martin Savidge. Martin, thank you. Now, many of the students who survived the shooting are talking of bullets flying across classrooms and

the acts of the heroism that kept them alive.

American students now train for these events, they are called "Code Red Drills," but then think about it. No amount of training could prepare a

child for this.


GABRIELLA FIGUEROA, SURVIVOR, SHOOTING IN FLORIDA: I heard the gunshot. I went to a classroom immediately. I was -- I called my mom. I don't feel

safe just like being like on to the wall like near the door. I went to the closet because I just felt safer in there. I sat in there and there was

like 10 or 15 people in there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We heard three gunshots and we all ran inside. Like there are two rooms in the tutor room. I went inside one of them. Five

minutes later, our teacher says -- she wanted everyone in the back of the room, safe -- you know, we're safe.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I heard screaming. I heard about five, six gunshots.

COTTON HAAB, STUDENT, FLORIDA: So, in JROTC, we have a program called Marksmanship. So, our back drop for marksmanship are Kevlar sheets that

are hung on hangers. It's kind of like a curtain, so we took those sheets and we put them in front of everybody so they weren't seen because they

were behind a solid object and the Kevlar would slow the bullet down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When my side of the building first got out, it was a zoo. People were climbing the fences.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There (were) a lot of bodies on the floor as we were walking out and they took us to the corner past the school and they just

led us where our parents -- and my mom was in there. I thought I wasn't going to see her again.

AIDAN MINOFF, STUDENT, FLORIDA: There were tears. There was crying. Some of my classmates did not know if they were leaving the school alive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It really opens our eyes, you know, this happens all around you, but you never think it's going to happen to you.

WILL GILROY, STUDENT, FLORIDA: No one thought this would happen in our school, and -- but we're going to have to do our best to just keep going on

and never forget what happened to our friends and never forget them.


QUEST: Students running in fear from classrooms. Police cars surrounding a school. Parents waiting and wondering if they will ever see their

children again. Yes, this all sounds very familiar. Well, let's remember this. In 1999, two teenagers walked into Columbine High School and then

murdered 13 people. It's one of the first school shootings that we watched play out on television. You will see in the pictures now. You'll remember


Frank DeAngelis was the principal there on that day and Mr. DeAngelis now joins us from Denver.

I can imagine that every time there is one of these mass shootings, especially if done there at a school, it takes you right back to that

moment in 1999.

FRANK DEANGELIS, FORMER PRINCIPAL, COLUMBINE HIGH SCHOOL: You're exactly correct. Yesterday, I was coming in from a presentation from New Jersey

and I arrived in Denver and all of a sudden, my cell phone starts vibrating, telling me, "You are in my thoughts and prayers. If you need

anything," and usually when that happens, I know there is another event that happened in the world in which we need to offer our condolences and

that is exactly what happened yesterday and I immediately went on the internet saw what was transpiring in Florida and immediately when I saw

those kids running out of the building with their hands up in the air, it took me back to April 20, 1999.

And we were retraumatized and in even though it is 19 years later, the scars that we experienced on that horrific day back in the spring of '99

will remain with us forever.

QUEST: The scars that the students there faced. They are not the physical, I am talking about the mental and the psychological, the

traumatic, the PTSD that they faced and I would imagine those in Florida will face similar issues in the days, weeks, months and in some cases,

years ahead.

DEANGELIS: Most definitely, and the thing that is so interesting that I learned through PTSD, being a victim myself with what I witnessed that day

is it affects people differently, and it seems at times, people were affected immediately and then others, three years down the road, there's

something that happens in their life that trigger this emotion takes them back and some people in that experiencing it later in life and the thing

that I think is so important that I tell these communities is you cannot put a timeline.

What we saw in Colorado with our kids and they are young adults now, but after three years, the support for them to get counseling ran out and these

kids were crying out for help seven, eight, nine years down the road and I think we need to keep those doors open for continual help for these kids.

QUEST: I need to ask you on a matter of policy because obviously, you are now well versed in these issues. Later in this program, we are going to

have a guest on this program whose argument will basically be that the police, that teachers, school administration, police officers at school

should be armed. That the idea of the Safety Students Act and they should repeal the Gun-Free School Zones Act.

Where do you stand on this as somebody who has been there, what do you believe is the answer to arm people within the school?

DEANGELIS: I believe and I am asked this question several -- almost every time that a school shooting occurs and I believe in the states and in a

majority of states, what we have are called school resource officers, that is an armed guard, but they are part of the faculty. They have been

trained and if they engage immediately, timing is the essence.

I have a difficult time in arming teachers with guns and I am just going to use myself as an example. On that horrific day, if I would have been

carrying a weapon on that day, I confronted the gunman, he was one of my students. Now, what I would have done on that particular day when I ran

down the hallway towards the gunman, I would try to reason with him to say, "You know, what you doing? You're one of my kids."

And in talking to law enforcement agents, they said the first mistake you would have made is you did not look at him as a killer or a perpetrator,

you looked at him is one of your students and you would have jeopardized not only your life, but the safety of others if they are counting on me to

defend them.

And other issue in talking to many police officers who are friends of mine. They said one of the things that they fear if you start arming teachers

with guns, all of a sudden, the police officers enter the building, you have a bunch of people in there with guns and they are not sure who was the

perpetrator, who was a killer.

And it sounds like the ideal situation, but I am in support of having armed police officers that serve and are faculty members that are there that are

part of the staff to help kids and I am a supporter of that, but as far as arming teachers, it's a little bit more than having people go out to target

practice. There's that whole mental aspect and if you talk to law enforcement, 80% of the time, 20% of the time they are inaccurate in

shooting, well, now all of a sudden you are asking teachers to be involved, and I am not sure if that is what teachers signed up for.

QUEST: Frank, I appreciate it. Thank you, sir, for -- we need to hear the sort of sober sensible views of people like yourself. Thank you for

joining us.

Quest Means Business continues. We will have more on this hour. We will also talk about South Africa, where there were major changes today. The

new president, Cyril Ramphosa took office. We'll discuss that.

South Africa has a new president. There was singing in Parliament after Cyril Ramaphosa was confirmed on Thursday, replacing Jacob Zuma that have

been dogged by corruption allegations over many years, but despite denying those claims, he was pushed out of office by his own party.

President Ramaphosa was elected to head the ANC in December on a ticket to tackle corruption and the country's many other problems.


CYRIL RAMAPHOSA, PRESIDENT OF SOUTH AFRICA: I do believe that when one is elected in this type of position, you basically become a servant of the

people of South Africa, and I will seek to execute that task with humility, faithfulness, and with dignity as well.


QUEST: The opposition leader says South Africa's problems stretched beyond Jacob Zuma and the opposition has promised to hold the new president



MMUSI ALOYSIAS MAIMANE, SOUTH AFRICAN OPPOSITION LEADER: We do not have a Jacob Zuma problem, we have an ANC problem. And I want to say this that

this is a moment in our country where we must move Section XV and go back to the people of South Africa and ask them for a fresh mandate so that we

can bring a new beginning to South Africa, so that the people who are without work can find work, the hungry can find food. Those who are

without schooling can go to a decent school, and ultimately, South Africa will belong to all black and white. Mr. Ramaphosa, I wish you strength,

but no, we will hold you accountable and I will see you in 2019 on the ballot box.


QUEST: David McKenzie is in Cape Town, joins me now. Good evening, David. Thank you for staying up late tonight. How would you best describe the

mood in South Africa now that Zuma's gone?

DAVID MCKENZIE, CORRESPONDENT, CNN: Well, I think it's optimistic. Certainly, there were a lot of people waiting to see the back of Jacob Zuma

even the main newspaper in Johannesburg had the back of the head of Zuma saying, "Gone, gone."

So, I think that sort of sums up the sentiments here. You have those -- these scenes in Parliament of not just the ANC celebrating and singing,

Cyril Ramaphosa's praises, but had a general sense from the opposition that they are willing to work with the new president of South Africa to deal

with South Africa's many issues it, Richard.

QUEST: And so, there really was not much advantage to the DA and the other opposition sort of being mealy-mouthed because then, a general election is

unlikely, and now it really is all full steam ahead to next year.

MCKENZIE: Well, that's right and I think after the leader of the opposition said, "I will see you in 2019." Cyril Ramaphosa countered him

saying, "In fact, I am going to see you every day in Parliament getting to work to do the job of running this country," which is a very different take

than we've heard from Jacob Zuma who was rudely booed and shouted down when he addressed Parliament because the opposition and many in this country

felt he did not have the moral authority to run this country.

So, despite the fact that Cyril Ramaphosa was the Deputy President, in very close proximity to Jacob Zuma before he resigned, there is a feeling that

maybe he kept enough distance between himself and that man politically that they are willing to work with him now in the short term, at least.

QUEST: And internationally, Cyril Ramaphosa is respected within Africa, within the EU with the countries. They will regard this I mean, I was

going to say you know, prior to Robert Mugabe leaving, that must have been the only country that might have mourned the loss of Jacob Zuma, but

everybody else will look forward Ramaphosa.

MCKENZIE: Well, I think he has a lot of goodwill from diplomats within the country and other countries around the world. South Africa has slipped in

the estimation of world powers as a moral voice for the continent and as an arbiter of international disputes within the African context.

Jacob Zuma really was mostly interested in saving his own political hide in the last few years. I think Cyril Ramaphosa's first priority politically

will be to try and sort out the ANC and to get rid of some of the rot that reached up to its highest levels, a very tricky political game he will have

to play there, but eventually perhaps he can try and take South Africa again onto the global stage like it used to be during the time of Nelson

Mandela and Thabo Mbeki.

QUEST: Very good to see you. Thank you, sir for staying up late in South Africa.

In Cape Town, the economic members endorsed the new president. As you can see, the rand rose along with South African stocks and bond yields fell a

short time ago in Quest Express, I asked the head of the Johannesburg Stock Exchange what she sees is the most important policy matter that the new

president can support.


NICKY NEWTON-KING, CEO OF JOHANNESBURG STOCK EXCHANGE: I think the most important thing, Richard, on policy is a very clear direction about how we

are going to achieve inclusive growth in this country followed very closely by the national intention around fiscal discipline because we have some

major fiscal issues certainly in the government right now.


QUEST: South Africa's economy is undeniably stagnant. According to the latest numbers, the country's GDP is at $295 billion. Now, put that into

perspective, that's down from the peak of $416 billion in 2011.

First, with a third of young people that are unemployed, that's without work and not in either education or training and Transparency International

is giving South Africa a corruption ranking of 45 out of a hundred with zero being highly corrupt.

President Ramaphosa is promising an anti-corruption drive. Eleni Giokos is with me in Johannesburg. So, you just heard the CEO of the stock exchange

talking about the deficit. What do analysts want to see first and foremost from the new President and for example, who will be his finance minister?

ELENI GIOKOS, CORRESPONDENT, CNN: Exactly, Richard. I think that's the big question and you know, we've got the national budget set to be

announced on Wednesday next week, so it does give Cyril Ramaphosa a few days to decide whether he is going to reshuffle Cabinet and replace Malusi


The investor community here, the people I have spoken to are saying that he needs to be replaced ahead of the budget. That Malusi Gigaba, known to be

a Zuma man and a Zuma supporter needs to be removed from that position and that's going to create a little bit more confidence and restore credibility

to a Treasury which you know has been under the spotlight for a very long time and had its own set of issues.

Runaway debts, Nicky Newton-King alluded to that, 50% to GDP is what it's at right now. When Zuma started out, it was at 30% to GDP, so you've got

to pull back spending at the same time, you're going to try and get growth back as well.

Cyril Ramaphosa, a businessman, a wealthy businessman, knows how to do, you know, how to get things going, so hopefully, he is going to put his

business mind to work when it comes to running the country and getting the economy back on track.

QUEST: The investment levels in South African have fallen. The mood has been one of gloom. Is it your feeling that you know, I mean, the ANC rule

is going to replace where ruler is going to be the presidency, at least until next year's general election, this is as good as it gets for the time


GIOKOS: Yes. It absolutely is as good as it gets. I mean, what people have been talking about as well is institutional rights within the ANC.

But just changing the leadership, changing people in key positions might not be enough because the ANC policy that has perhaps you know, contributed

to the situation that South Africa is in right now that there needs to be a total rethinking of the way that the party operates to ensure that there is


I mean, this one kind of doom and gloom scenario, Richard that people are saying. South Africa might need to go to the IMF down the line. If it

doesn't pull back on its spending and time to sort out the economy.

QUEST: Eleni, good to see you. Thank you. In Johannesburg tonight. And so, Airbus is predicting blue skies ahead after a period of both managerial

and if you like, business turbulence.

The airspace giant says 2018's earnings will jump by 20% denying problems with some of its key projects. Now, investors very much like what they

heard. The stock ended the day up by the best part of it is -- that's the best performance in a decade. Now, think about it, it's up more than 10%,

which for a share like Airbus, the size of the company is really an achievement.

Demand for the commercial aircraft surged, however -- however, the problems are also starting to mount. Not insurmountable for a -- let's join me in

the hanger over here. Now, first of all in the hanger, you have the A400- N, the military jet, which has some extremely revolutionary propellers.

But it's got costly technological and logistical problems. The company is hoping to draw a line under this. It booked another one $1.5 billion in

the cost overruns, but it did come to an agreement with the government a way forward that hopefully, will contain the cost overruns and allow them

to develop more planes.

Then you've got the 320 NEO, the small plane from Airbus or the medium-size of the small plane. Engine issues have slowed down production of the top-

selling plane, some very complicated engines, both manufacturers, CFM and Pratt & Whitney have had difficulty with their NEO engines.

And remember, the NEO stands for New Engine Option. It's the engine that pretty much gave the aircraft most of its fuel, extra-fuel efficiency

besides the composite. Airbus says it is confident it can deliver a record number of the short hold jets in this year.

And our favorite, the Whale, the A380, the super jumbo. Now, the super jumbo -- Dubai's Emirates Airline has put in a $16 billion order. It's a

new lease of life and Airbus has now confirmed that it will hold production for the next 10 years.

Despite all this optimism, I asked the Chief Executive, Tom Enders about the political factors that could hurt the company particularly, for

example, Brexit.


TOM ENDERS, CEO, AIRBUS: We're quite worried because, I mean, we have a high running production machine right now and supplier confidence and

supply certainty is of utmost importance if we want to manage our (inputs), so we are looking in that -- in every detail. We are working with the

suppliers and we will take measures on the operational level as much as we can to protect ourselves about -- against the uncertainty of decisions that

are going to be taken as you say, probably in fall 2019.

On the other hand, we have a lot of assurance from the British government that they will mitigate here, so I am worried. I am not panicking and the

company will take what it is needed to protect itself against the uncertainty.

Obviously, like other industries, I am first of all hoping that there will be some additional time after '19 for the adaptation.

QUEST: You got a thumbing big victory when Bombardier, one of the ITC on the C-Series which of course makes your 50% investment in the C-Series

extremely valuable, doesn't it? I mean, now you have got Delta. Now you can go in further into the US. Are you hopeful for more sales from other

US carriers?

ENDERS: Yes, absolutely, Richard, you are right. This was an excellent victory for 4-0 Bombardier versus Boeing. The US is the single largest

market for the C-Series, so we need to have a strong foothold in the US market, hence, we will not change our plans to build a second final

assembly line in Mobile, Alabama back to back with the one we have built there for single aisle and I think that is the basis for long-term success

in the US market.

If you think about it, I mean -- I have this final say on there, from the back of my head, I think we have more than 60% US value edits on the C-

Series. There are probably not that many Boeing programs that can feature more than 60% of American value added.

QUEST: Two more questions, A380. I flew the 380 back the other day from Dubai to London. And once again, I marveled at what a technologically

brilliant machine this was and you know, the quietness of it, the size. My nickname for this is always "the whale" but then, I always think about was

an economic disaster it has been for both Airbus in some ways and for the (inaudible) and I wonder, how does one you know, as you come to the end of

your time, how does one reconcile something so brilliant, so much needed at the time and yet, nobody seems to be able to be -- or besides Emirates,

made money on it?

ENDERS: Well, Richard, I mean, I am looking forward on the 380 and I am very happy that you are happy with the 380. You are something like a

special ambassador, maybe we should add you to the sales team here. The Emirates -- the recent Emirates order was very important for us to secure a

few chips for the program beyond 2025 even if we have to go back to a minimum production rate.

Now, obviously, we will build additional sales, I am quite sure on that minimum number. At the same time, our teams will try to engage more

customers. One ambition, clearly is to sell more 380s into China, big China so far has bought only five 380s, there's certainly much more

potential there.

And that order gives us time to work on that and our teams are working on additional improvements for the 380, so I would say, Richard, yes, it cost

us a lot of money, but looking forward, the jury is still out on that aircraft and I predict, it will fly many, many years from now and maybe we

will see really a revival of the 380 in the 2020s.


QUEST: As we continue tonight on Quest Means Business, we are talking to the head of the Gun Owners of America of the eighth school shooting in the

United States this year.

And I am Richard Quest, there is more Quest Means Business in just a moment. I am going to ask the head of a pro-gun lobby group about his

solutions to keeping children safe in school.

The world's largest migration is underway in China, which we followed home, workers on a difficult journey as we continue Business CNN, and on this

network, the facts must come first.

A Florida judge has ordered that the school shooting suspect Nikolas Cruz be held without bond in a brief hearing on Thursday. The 19-year-old is

accused of killing 17 people at the high school in the southern eastern part of the state. Questions are now emerging about his mental state and

possible warning signs on social media.

Cyril Ramaphosa became South Africa's new President hours after President Jacob Zuma resigned. Zuma had been dogged by corruption allegations and

his own Party effectively pushed him out of office. President Ramaphosa said he will work hard not to disappoint the people of South Africa.

Oxfam's former Chief of Operations in Haiti says there are a lot of lies and exaggerations in the sex scandal reports surrounding the charities.

His comments to a Belgium newspaper, Oxfam is under fire over revelations that workers had prostitutes in the aftermath of Haiti's 2010 earthquake.

Then then a claim that Oxfam then covered up these actions.

The Australian Prime Minister seen here is banning sexual relations between the government ministers and their staff. This follows a scandal involving

the married Deputy Prime Minister and a former staffer who is now pregnant with his child. Prime Minister is calling the Deputy's action in his

words, "shocking error of judgment."

A single strike of the bell on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange and it began a minute of silence before Thursday's trading began.

The world's financial capital stood still as a mark of respect for the 17 people murdered at the high school in Florida.

The mood in the United States is one of resignation for something -a behavior, an act of murder has become disturbingly familiar. Around the

world, there is bewilderment that this keeps happening.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Under the US gun laws, the public security is hard to manage. It is just my personal point of view.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In China, the situation is way better day or night. It's super safe here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it's not really acceptable and I am happy that such incidents are not so common in India.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it is definitely a time for stricter gun control laws to be implemented. Something needs to happen in order to

control that law so that the gun control laws can be made more strict.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it's crazy that the weapons are still legal in the United States. I really can't imagine how everybody is talking

about terrorism, but on the other hand, Americans can buy guns everywhere. I can't -- I don't (inaudible).


QUEST: The lobby group, Gun Owners of America says it supports arming teachers and administrators to help prevent school shootings. Erich Pratt

is the group's executive director joining me via Skype from Virginia.

Good afternoon, sir. Let's test the connection. Can you hear me?

ERICH PRATT, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, GUN OWNERS OF AMERICA: I sure can, Richard and it's good to be with you and as with you, our hearts are

broken. You know, I am a father of 10 and it really hurts every time we hear about a tragedy like this.

QUEST: Now, I understand and during this interview, I'd like to do this slightly differently, if I may, sir, because there is nothing I can say or

no argument that I can advance that is suddenly going to get you to turn around and say, "You know, you are right, Richard. We do need more gun

control in America." You specifically say in an article today in a press release, "No form of gun control will help prevent these tragedies," so to

prevent a "Yeah, boohoo, sucks, he says, he says," fruitless interview.

I instead, I would like you to tell me what your solution is briefly and we will go through it bit by bit.

What is your answer to reduce the level of gun violence in this country?

PRATT: Absolutely. Well, thank you. I think that is a very important question. I think first of all, it is important to understand that most of

these mass shootings are occurring in gun-free zones where guns are not allowed.

Over 98% of the public mass shootings in this country occur in gun-free zones and that is why we would agree with our police officers, 81% of them

polled say that the way you stop this in the schools is to arm the teachers, arm school administrators, arm the principals. We think that

would be a very successful strategy.

You never hear about a mass shooting in Utah. They have been arming teachers since 1995. You do not hear about it in Ohio. They have trained

over a thousand.

QUEST: Frank DeAngelis, the Columbine principal on this program at the beginning of this program. He specifically said, yes, he is in favor of

armed guards in schools, properly trained armed guards in schools, but he is against arming the general academic faculty because he says in his case,

you know, he would have been shot because he would have tried to reason and the police he spoke to say it is a mistake to arm teachers -- academics,

janitorial staff and the like.

PRATT: Well, we could interview different authorities on the subject. There is a Columbine survivor who is now in the state legislature and he

says, more of his classmates would be alive today if teachers have been armed, so he actually advocates arming teachers.

It is the way that Israel got rid of their terror-at-schools problem. They started arming teachers years ago and the attacks on schoolchildren

stopped. Why is it that our Congressmen are better armed and better protected than our schoolchildren? You know, when you arm school resource

officers. Well, one of the first to get shot yesterday was the security guard there. I do not know if he was targeted, still need to find out more

information on that, but that is the problem when you have only one person and -- who is especially identified as the one carrying a firearm. They

typically will be the one who is targeted.

QUEST: On the wider question of the President today said, you know, "To the children of America, we will to whatever is necessary," so I ask you,

sir, within the entire penalty all of measures that you would take, arming teachers, doing this, doing that, why not add an element of greater control

over the access to guns?

What so wrong besides the Second Amendment, but we'll put that to one side for one second, but what as a matter of principle is so wrong with

experimenting with that?

PRATT: Richard, experimenting? We have had a several-decade experiment with this and it is failing. This killer, the authorities tells he bought

his gun legally. That tells me he passed a background check. The Las Vegas shooter and the Texas shooter passed background checks. The bar in

Orlando shooter passed background check. Both for the shooters, the Aurora theater shooter, the Navy yard shooter, you just go on and on and on

through the list, Richard. They all passed background checks and if they couldn't like the Sandy Hook shooter up in Connecticut, he killed his first

victim, stole her guns and then took those guns onto the school campus, which was a gun-free zone.

He disobeyed that law, said no guns allowed and that is -- that is the problem, Richard. These killers are targeting those areas where guns are

not allowed and that is what we need to stop.

QUEST: So, if that is the problem which comes back to what it always does. I mean, whichever way we slice this, it always comes back to the same

point, reduce the number of guns in circulation. You cannot necessarily deal with the 300 million or 500 million whatever that are already out

there, but you can deal with -- by reducing the rate at which they are increasing, which does bring us back to gun control.

Do you not think it is at least time for a reason to debate in this country on that issue?

PRATT: Richard, we have been having that debate for decades. And quite frankly, even in the midst of that debate, we have 200 million additional

guns since the early '90s and in that time, our murder rate was cut in half.

Look at the FBI statistics. So, we have more guns in this country and yet less murder and less crime. So, we've actually done the opposite of what

you are advocating. We have more good people with guns and we are actually safer than we were in the early '90s. So, you know, your proposal has been

a failure in countries like Venezuela where they have confiscated guns and their murder rate now is 20 times higher than our country or even many of

the other countries which have a higher mass shooting rate than we do here in the United States. Yet, we hear a lot more about mass shootings first.

QUEST: Right.

PRATT: . media.

QUEST: But let's.

PRATT: . wants to report on that, but Richard, in Europe, there are countries -- I mean, the United States is not even in the top 10. They

have higher murder rates and death rates per mass shooting (inaudible).

QUEST: No, not in Europe, they don't, sir. I need to just correct you on that. Not in Europe. There is no country in Europe that -- in fact, I've

got the latest (inaudible).

PRATT: France?

QUEST: No, no.

PRATT: France.

QUEST: No, France is not.

PRATT: Richard, you're way off it. Look, Richard, we disagree and you know, you are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to your

own facts. France, in one year, in 2015 had more mass shooting deaths than we did in this country in all the years that Obama was president. That was

the year the Bataclan massacre. They are a much smaller country than we are and yet, they had in that one year far more deaths than we have.

You look at other countries like Finland and Norway.

QUEST: You seriously expect people to accept your argument that a particular terrorist attack -- terrorist attack, the Bataclan shooting

outweighs what all the gun violence over many decades and you -- if you look at France because we looked at it because I knew you were going to

mention the France example, if you look up France, on average, it could have a mass shooting the size of Paris every month for a year and still be

less in the United States in an average year.

PRATT: That defies the facts in that one year. It was also the newspaper shooting that year. In that one year, they had more people die in a mass

shooting than, okay, they were terrorists, so what? It was against the law. That is the point.

They weren't allowed to have those guns. They broke the law. They were not allowed to have the guns where they took them. They broke the law just

like at that Florida school yesterday. That kid broke the law and that's the point. Killers break the law if they are going to kill. What do they

care, Richard? Richard, do not interrupt.

If you put a sign up that says, "Do not carry guns into this area," law- abiding people will obey it, but you think criminals are going to obey that? Answer me the question. Are criminals going to obey a sign that

says, "No guns allowed here."

QUEST: I think that most sensible people watching tonight will see a clear difference between.

PRATT: You're not answering the question.

QUEST: I am fine. I am with respect. I think most people watching tonight can see a clear difference between organized terrorism, which will

use the most heinous offensive weapon so that they will have obtained either through state-sponsored terrorism and criminality and the vast

majority of what we are talking about here tonight, sir is criminality, not organized terrorism often state-sponsored.

PRATT: That was very good. You did not answer the question. Will terrorists and criminals obey a sign that says, "No guns are allowed on

this on these premises."

QUEST: Of course, they won't, any more than a criminal will. Any more than a criminal who says -- wait, let me finish, any more than a criminal -

- any more than a criminal who says, "do not shoplift," won't shop -- will shop lift. I mean, that's a nonsense argument, but I want to know one

point. I want one point.

PRATT: But see the problem, Richard. That is why all your gun-control proposals are failing because bad guys don't obey those laws.

QUEST: I am going to give you the last word here. I am going to give you the last word because I want to get to the heart of this because the heart

of this, at the end of the day, the United States has been debating this as you rightly say for the best part of however long, and seemingly, these

attacks continue whether at a workplace, at a school, at a road, at a Las Vegas hotel, whatever it is. What is your solution short of turning the

country into the Wild West by allowing everybody to have more guns, besides that?

PRATT: Okay, well, first of all, you didn't answer really my question, but listen, I have answered that question. I thought we need to get rid of the

gun-free zones. We need to do what the police say which is arm the real first responders, the teachers and principals and look, every death is

tragic, Richard.

I have lost a son. I can feel the pain that these parents are going through. I lost a son in a drowning accident. But you know, even though

there are far more drowning deaths in our country than there are rifle deaths, which a subset of that would be the AR 15, there are 10 times as

many drowning deaths. I did not go on a national campaign with my wife to ban or restrict access to swimming pools, you know, and of course you would

say, well that is because there is recreational and entertainment value.

Well, in the same way, guns have value too. Far more guns are used to save lives than to take life and we are not utilizing that when we tell people

you cannot bring guns onto the campus to protect children's lives.

QUEST: We thank you and I think we have done as best as we ever do putting more light than heat on to this debate and I am grateful tonight, sir, that

you came on and did it. Thank you.

PRATT: Thank you, Richard.

QUEST: When we come back, South Africa celebrating a new President and a new political era. The country faces many of the same problems. We will

look at how the new president might tackle the challenges.

It's only been 24 hours in South Africa, the country has a new President after Jacob Zuma's decade-old reign came to an end. Cyril Ramophosa was

confirmed as the successor. The unionist turned businessman inherited a long list of difficulties plaguing the country -- corruption, struggling

economy, looming water crisis in Cape Town -- all must be addressed.

Sisa Ntshona is the chief executive of South Africa tourism. Sisa, good to see you.


QUEST: You are going to keep your job?

NTSHONA: Absolutely.

QUEST: Have you been on to the President to make sure that the new president is going to keep you in there?

NTSHONA: I hope so. You know, when I left, there was a different president, when I go back home next week, we've got a new president as you

said, but we are all looking forward to it. I think it's a new generation, regeneration of South Africa and I am sure we'll keep that.

QUEST: Doesn't -- I mean, when we look at tourism, South Africa tourism is one of the absolute beauty spots and yet, the country, the government

interferes. It's interfered with South Africa tourism, it's interfered with the airline, it's interfered with strategy. What do you now want from

this new president and from this new government?

NTSHONA: Well, it's essentially understanding that tourism has such huge potential in terms of getting the economy up and running. We are

diversifying ourselves of the natural resources, commodities and everything else and that tourism in the next lever that we wanted to pull along.

Key here is about coordination. We need all the different facets of government actually working together to make sure that we can clear the


QUEST: You also need ministerial assistance that does not interfere on the grounds of politics, would you agree?

NTSHONA: Yes, absolutely. It's the alignment. I think that's the key thing.

QUEST: Yes, but the tourism brief has often been used as a sinecure, a place to book people, a place to meddle.

NTSHONA: Yes, well look, I mean, as I say, we are evolving as an economy and we are weaning ourselves off, you know, the natural resources, the

mining and other things and really now, you start to see a big focus around doing more around tourism. We were worried about the fourth industrial

revolution where tourism is a natural mitigatory of that because it's very labor-intensive and that is the space we are focusing on.

QUEST: So, what campaigns will you be looking at to forward?

NTSHONA: Absolutely. It's about making sure that we profile South Africa as a desirable tourism destination to everybody. Also, making sure that we

showcase the entire country. I mean, we've got nine beautiful states or provinces that we want to showcase and all of them offer something

different from that perspective.

So, whether you are a first timer, Cape Town, the big destinations or you've been there four or five times to see other places.

QUEST: And how worried are you by the water problem in Cape Town? Particularly of course, I mean, as you are coming out of your high season,

now of course as the winter comes to an end and the northern hemisphere, but the publicity has not been good on this.

NTSHONA: Yes, I mean, look, I mean, it's a definite issue. Well, you know, water crisis that said, however, is that Cape Town is not unique. We

have seen big destinations around the world Los Angeles, Sao Paulo, even Beijing is an example. However, Cape Town has the opportunity to lead and

really benchmark or recalibrate in terms of how the modern-day tourist responds to water issues around the world.

QUEST: I have been to South Africa as you know, many times over many years, and it is one of the greatest places in the world for a tourist.

But I always feel that the tourism strategy never reaches its true potential, that there is always more that can be eked out.

NTSHONA: And that is precisely the point. You know, the focus now is to make sure that we get more from it you know, as I said, we have been very

much reliant on resources. I mean, it's been reliant on resources. I mean, it's been a continental play in that respect and now, we really are putting

the lever from that perspective there.

QUEST: And you'll still be on the job?

NTSHONA: Of course, I mean, that's a space that is growing and we want to bring more to.

QUEST: I mean, you. You think the president is going to keep you?

NTSHONA: I hope so. At least you know something I don't know.

QUEST: Well, I will tell you later after the program.

NTSHONA: Thank you, Richard.

QUEST: We will have a profitable moment after the break.

Tonight's profitable moment. The exchange you heard on this program with the Gun Owners of America was important for many reasons, but not least

because -- instead of the usual shouting match over should there be gun control and it's always ends up as the question always ends up on this

issue should there be more greater gun control? But tonight, you heard something different. You heard the reasoning that there should be of an

arming of more of the general population.

A Wild West if you like within the United States more so than there already is. Now, different people can argue about whether this is good or bad, but

the important thing to realize is that is one of the principal arguments brought forward by the Gun Owners Association and the others like the NRA,

more guns would make the country safer. It's not for me to say whether they are right or wrong. I shall leave that up to your good offices.

And that is Quest Means Business for tonight. I am Richard Quest in New York. Whatever you are up to in the hours ahead, I hope it is profitable.

Please, let's get together tomorrow.