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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield
Donald Smith Pay the Price for All his Crimes; Five-year-old Boy Mysteriously Disappeared in their Home. Aired 6-8p ET
Aired February 20, 2018 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:00] SEEMA IYER, HOST, HLN: Good afternoon, everyone. I`m Seema Iyer in for Ashleigh Banfield. This is Crime and Justice.
Tonight we`re learning more dark details about the 19-year-old suspected of gunning down 17 people at a Florida high school. Police say they were
called to the boy`s home 20 times over the past few years. And that he was able to buy ten rifles in the last year alone.
According to local reports the gun store where he bought the rifle used in the massacre has closed indefinitely.
Meanwhile, it was a tragic morning at a middle school in Ohio where police say a 7th grader came to campus with a distractionary device, possibly an
explosive. He shot himself in the bathroom then he was reportedly taken to the hospital with a head wound as students were reunited with their
parents.
Now to Atlanta. The food delivery driver accused of fleeing the scene after shooting and killing a customer is claiming, get this, self-defense. Yes.
According to his lawyer the customer got angry he took so long. Came down and said, quote, unquote, "I`m going to f you up." Robert Bivines has been
driving for Uber eats for a week. The company says they are working with police and say they have a no gun policy.
And tonight, a 61-year-old man in Florida is facing the death penalty after he was caught on camera at a local Dollar general at a Walmart befriending
a young woman and her daughters. He offered to buy them clothes and burgers. Then he walked out. The 8-year-old out of store and out of their
lives forever.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m at Walmart on Lem Turner. She`s been taken.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you mean?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Taken by a stranger. I can`t find her. He said he was going to McDonald`s. She went with him. I should have told her to stay with
me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was going to the McDonald`s inside the store?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes there`s a McDonald`s inside the store. I don`t understand why he would leave right now unless he was going to rape her and
kill her. That`s the only reason.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: Maybe you`re not that surprised but it took a jury just 12 minutes to convict Donald Smith last week. Kidnapping, rape and murder. Now the
question is whether he deserves to die for what he did to little Cherish Perrywinkle or whether life in prison is enough.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The state of Florida is asking you, each of you to sentence him to the ultimate penalty under the law. That is death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Each of you has a group hold life or death in your hands. You could choose to show mercy. And sometimes mercy is given to
somebody who might not even deserve it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: With me now Rachel Stockman, editor in chief of the Law and Crime Network. Rachel, thank you so much for being here. I know your network has
followed this case from gavel to gavel. So break it down for us. Are you surprised by a 12-minute verdict and where we at now?
RACHEL STOCKMAN, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, LAW & CRIME NETWORK: Absolutely not. This has been one of the most worst cases, most horrifying horrendous cases
we`ve ever covered on the network. A little girl, you showed her picture there, 8-year-old Cherish Perrywinkle, raped, sodomized, murdered. Tons of
evidence. Then on top of that you have a secret tape that was recorded in prison where this man bragged about what he did.
IYER: And you and I both know those jailhouse calls they get you every time. If the evidence doesn`t, the phone calls do.
STOCKMAN: I really do think that may very well be the nail in this man`s coffin.
IYER: Sure.
STOCKMAN: Because right now we`re in the death penalty in all of this. So that means they`ve convicted him, as you mentioned, in just 12 minutes. Now
the jurors are considering are they going to save this man`s life or are they going to put him to death.
And I got to tell you what. I think there`s a very, very good chance in this case, that this man is not going to be around for very much longer.
What he did is just so horrendous.
IYER: OK. Well, let`s talk about him because he`s a registered sex offender. He has an incredibly lengthy rap sheet. And in fact, the star
witness today for the prosecution in the death penalty phase was a former victim. Tell us about her.
STOCKMAN: So she was a former victim, 25 years ago.
IYER: Right, 1992.
STOCKMAN: When she was just 13 years old. This man, she testified in front of all those jurors tried to abduct her. She ran for her life. She said he
followed her in a creepy van. It was very compelling, it was very emotional testimony.
[18:05:00] IYER: Rachel, let`s listen to this victim Kerri-Anne Buck when she talks about how he procured her into the van.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he ask you if you wanted a ride?
KERRI-ANNE BUCK, TARGETED BY DONALD SMITH N 1992: He did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was your response?
BUCK: I just told him no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened after you told him no to the ride?
BUCK: He demanded that I got in the van. He told me to get the (muted) in the van.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How would you describe his voice?
BUCK: Mean. Scary.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When he said this, what did you do?
BUCK: I ran.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did the defendant chase after you in that van?
BUCK: He did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: How compelling was that testimony?
STOCKMAN: Listen, you have a woman that this happened to 25 years later and here she is on the stand crying, still remembering how much that moment
traumatized her. And this is a woman who I hate to say it, wasn`t abducted and didn`t have those horrible things that happened to Cherish, that 8-
year-old little girl.
IYER: Right. And you know what`s really interesting. This 25 year gap but there`s one piece of evidence that connects both incidents and that`s the
van. What is the significance of this van? Because all the victims seem to be talking of the van.
STOCKMAN: I think it shows his pattern. And that`s something the jurors are in this death penalty phase will be weighing. Is this a guy that we
should show mercy for? Is this a guy that can reform his behavior? I mean, listen, he`s never going to be put out of prison but should we show him any
mercy?
IYER: Well, let`s talk about mercy on the other end of hearing more about how he terrorized Kerr-Anne Buck and talked about how he was going to find
her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUCK: Behind the school there was a small playground. There was a big tube slide on the playground. I got inside.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you got inside the slide, did you try to conceal yourself, hold yourself up there in the slide so that he can`t see you?
BUCK: I did. I was holding, pushing out with my hands and my feet inside this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hear this defendant come after you?
BUCK: I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you do?
BUCK: I was scared. I was slipping and I was so afraid I was going to fall out and he was going to find me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hear the van pull up to the playground area?
BUCK: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hear him say anything?
BUCK: He said I know you`re in there you little bitch, I`m going to find you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: Rachel, let`s just paint a picture for the viewers of what Kerri- Anne said there. She`s talking about being in a tube. Let`s paint the picture what she was doing. With her hands and her feet it sounds like he
was like grasped like a spider.
STOCKMAN: This was her after she tried to run away from this man. Just so terrified. And you just played that clip. And what I found so interesting,
I don`t know if you caught this was his expression while she was describing these horrible things. Just kind of sitting there with his hand on his
face. Kind of expressionless. Almost like he was enjoying some of this. And that`s kind of been my theory throughout this case.
Because many people have asked why, why did the defense attorneys take this to trial if it`s such a slam dunk case that he did it. I think he`s
enjoying having the limelight right there. I think he is.
IYER: I`m so with you. Let`s bring in the expert now Dr. Judy Ho. Dr. Judy Ho, let`s talk about this. This guy apparently has no remorse, OK. Now in
the death penalty phase, they`re trying to go with a mental illness type argument, perhaps for mitigation. Do you think he`s mentally ill?
JUDY HO, CLINICAL & FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Good question. You know, first of all, that idea that he basically might be enjoying all the attention,
that he`s expressionless to emotional responses in which he really should become upset or worried. He`s not showing any of those things. And that
might suggest the presence of psychopathy or what as professionals diagnose as an anti-social personality disorder which is very difficult to treat.
So that brings up the question of whether or not he`s mentally ill. He`s mentally ill but not in way that we construe it when we talk about when
somebody goes to treatment and gets better for his mental illness. This is not depression or schizophrenia where we know we have scientific treatments
for.
[18:09:56] IYER: OK. So, Dr. Ho, this is really important for the viewers to understand this. There`s a difference between having a mental illness
that is explanation for his behavior as opposed to a mental illness that can rise to the level of a legal defense.
So, in this case you think he has some anti-social personality disorder. My question is, do you think the use and or abuse of substances like he has
known or reported to have ingested crack cocaine or other substances. Could this exacerbate his already existing pyschopathy.
HO: Absolutely. So the fact that he is possibly an anti-social personality disorder individual along with this history of substance abuse, we actually
learned that he was using cocaine in just a couple weeks prior to this crime. That suggest that even higher (Inaudible) that led him to act on
this terrible ideas that he may have held in his mind.
We know that individuals who are diagnosed with anti-social personality disorder, there`s a sense of callousness sense of non-emotionality. And so
when somebody utilizes cocaine, we know that cocaine uses leads to more impulsivity and actually possibly acting on aggressive acts that they are
already painting in their mind.
And so, this of course is the main issue. His defense is not saying that he didn`t know right from wrong. They`re saying he`s mentally ill and might
need treatment. And my concern is he the kind of person who is actually going to get better from treatment if he doesn`t think that there`s
anything wrong with him in the first place.
IYER: He`s not going to get better from treatment. I want to show also the remorse. Look at his -- when he talks about making eye contacts with Kerri-
Anne Buck. Listen to her and what she said on the stand about when they looked at each other.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you drove after him did you make eye contact with this defendant?
BUCK: I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he recognize who you were?
BUCK: He did. He looked at me like he was going to kill me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The person who chased after you into that playground, is that the man who sits right here?
BUCK: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why were you so afraid?
BUCK: I knew he was going to hurt me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: You know what`s remarkable, it`s been 25 years and her emotion seems as fresh as the day after it happened.
STOCKMAN: It absolutely does. You can tell how terrified. But I just want to comment on what your other guest said.
IYER: Sure.
STOCKMAN: The doctor. I`m just, I`m sorry, not buying this argument that he has some kind of mental defect here. The bottom line is yes, he`s a sick
man. We know that.
IYER: But that is a mental illness, no.
STOCKMAN: He knows the difference between right and wrong.
IYER: I agree with you.
(CROSSTALK)
STOCKMAN: And that`s what the jurors have to determine. Yes.
IYER: Absolutely. I agree with you that it doesn`t rise to the level of a legal defense.
STOCKMAN: Right.
IYER: But it`s a mental disease.
STOCKMAN: Sure.
IYER: It`s a mental illness. One that may not garner sympathy. Let`s bring in Atlanta`s finest legal mind, defense attorney Eric Johnson. Eric, this
guy deserves the death penalty like none I`ve ever seen. Thoughts.
ERIC JOHNSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, not necessarily. I mean, given the fact as his defense attorney said, this is a matter where the jury has life
and death within their hands. Something else that they have to take into consideration. If you look at the expressions of horror from the witness
that was on the stand, this is something that has been with her and will be with her.
This may be a situation where they want to stretch that death it would be too easy for this person. Him suffering over the long life and hard time in
prison may be what is something that can give the victims in this case some semblance of salvation in this matter given the fact that they know, a,
that he can`t harm anyone else and b, that he`s also someplace where he is suffering not only because he`s in prison but given the nature of his
crime.
Given the fact we have a situation that the death penalty would not even be enacted for years to come, that feeling that they are seeking for is
something that is going to be delayed any way.
So if you do not have the death penalty and you know he`s going to be in jail for life, you know that he`s going to be in there dealing with all the
harsh realities of jail, that is something that the victims can take solace in given the fact that it`s not about the death of the girl in this matter.
It`s about how she suffered and how he treated her. So he should face some suffering more so than just death.
IYER: OK. But Eric, before we end, you just have to tell me that you would talk to your client and not let him sit there in front of a jury with his
finger in his mouth and classes perched up on his hand. And he`s so casual like it`s just day at the beach. I mean, tell him to get it together in
front of the jury that`s deciding whether he lives or dies.
JOHNSON: Well, that is something definitely true. Part of the case is not only the facts but also the way that you as the attorney and your client
present themselves to the jury.
[18:15:06] So, I would definitely caution my client against things that could be taken adversely by the jury especially given the fact that they
are deciding his fate.
IYER: Eric Johnson, Rachel Stockman, and Dr. Judy Ho, thank you guys for hanging out during this block.
An urgent search tonight for a 5-year-old boy who vanished three days ago and with temperatures dropping well below freezing tonight. Police say
finding Lucas Hernandez quickly is imperative. A look at his mysterious disappearance. That`s next.
[18:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
IYER: Tonight, police in Wichita, Kansas are working around the clock using canines, horses and drones to search for this adorable 5-year-old boy
named Lucas Hernandez. He`s been missing since Saturday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLEY DAVIDSON, POLICE OFFICER, WICHITA POLICE DEPARTMENT: As we enter the third day of searching for Lucas, I want to again remind everyone he
was last seen wearing black sweats, white socks and gray shirt with a bear on it. It was Saturday, February 17 at their apartment at 6.15. when
officers were dispatched to a lost juvenile call at his resident in the 600 block of South Edgemoor.
Officers contacted his 26-year-old female stepmother who reported last seeing Lucas in his bedroom at approximately 3 p.m.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: According to local reports Lucas` step mom showered and fell asleep before waking up to find the back door open. That was now 72 hours ago with
freezing nighttime temperatures, the family is just praying that little Lucas makes it safely home.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRISTIN EDSON, LUCAS HERNANDEZ`S COUSIN: I mean, it`s cold out. We don`t know where he is. We want him home safely. You know it`s devastating you`re
hollering his name up and down the street telling him it`s OK. Come out. It`s very hard to do. You never think it will happen to you until it
happens and you just pray it never does.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: With me now is Stephanie Austin, news anchor for KQAM radio in Wichita. Stephanie, break this down for us. What happened on Saturday and
where is the investigation at in finding this adorable child whose been missing for too long.
STEPHANIE AUSTIN, NEWS ANCHOR, KQAM RADIO: Hi, Seema. It is very difficult. We`re in day four now for the search for 5-year-old Lucas
Hernandez. Wichita police responded to call from his stepmother on Saturday around 6 p.m. She had last seen him in his bedroom around 3 p.m. And then
she went to take a shower and she fell asleep. And they have not seen him since.
It`s been -- it`s been cold here and it has been a long time, I mean, that`s several days for a child to be out just in sweat pants and socks and
a shirt. And authorities have been searching. They have searched his home, of course, his neighborhood and area parks.
IYER: Was anything else missing from the home besides the little boy?
AUSTIN: Police have not released a lot of details about that saying they don`t wish to jeopardize their case. But nothing has been mentioned that
anything else was missing from the home.
IYER: OK. You talk about the weather. The weather was 22 degrees on Saturday when Lucas went missing and 34 on Sunday and back down to 28 on
Monday. This little boy is out there in maybe nothing but sweat pants and a t-shirt. Local police say they have over a hundred officers on the case. Is
the FBI involved? Where have they searched?
AUSTIN: The FBI has been called in to help. And they do have over 100 law enforcement officials working this case. And that means mounted police.
That also means using the K9 unit. And also, those who are manning the tip line. So there are a lot of people actively looking for Lucas. They have
searched his home. They searched his neighborhood thoroughly and they have searched area parks and still no sign of little Lucas.
IYER: Why was there no Amber alert when Lucas went missing on Saturday or since then?
AUSTIN: An Amber alert requires certain conditions. And since police are not calling this an abduction then a Amber alert was not warranted in this
case.
IYER: OK. They`re not calling it an abduction but do we know whether the police are looking at the parents? So there`s the step mom who discovered
him missing. There`s the biological mom who I believe lives somewhere else, right?
AUSTIN: Correct.
IYER: Where does she live?
AUSTIN: I believe she lives in Newton, a surrounding town.
IYER: And the dad. The dad wasn`t home at the time, correct?
[18:25:03] AUSTIN: The police do not want to elaborate on whether or not he was home. They did not say if they are suspecting anyone specific. They
are just saying very simply that they are looking for Lucas.
IYER: OK. So they said they are looking for Lucas. Are they not being specific about whether the parents are being looked at as suspects now? Do
you know the answer to that yet?
AUSTIN: I believe that to be correct. They are not saying whether or not they are looking at suspects or anyone else for that matter. They`re saying
that the family is cooperating. I know the family was questioned for about 10 hours yesterday. But there has been no one suspect in this case.
IYER: OK. But there is a 5-year-old who just vanishes during the middle of the day. So there has to be some question about whether there was foul
play. Otherwise, where did he go, right?
AUSTIN: Absolutely. That`s the question. Everyone is looking for Lucas.
IYER: OK. Well, apparently they are looking at Chisholm Creek Park which is about five miles from the home. It`s 216 acres this park. There`s a lake
in the park. Now why this is significant, and I want you to elaborate is that the biological mom has said that Lucas is sacred of water.
AUSTIN: Correct.
IYER: So why are they looking at park where there`s a lake knowing that he`s scared of water. He wouldn`t go there voluntarily. So doesn`t that
indicate some foul play?
AUSTIN: I think that police have to follow every single tip that comes into the tip line as they said they have been investigating all tips. But
it takes a lot of resources to do that. But they can`t rule anything else.
IYER: Right.
AUSTIN: And they`re not going to tell us details on what they are thinking or what they know to jeopardize...
(CROSSTALK)
AUSTIN: Right. I have a few more questions about Lucas, Stephanie.
AUSTIN: OK.
IYER: Now his picture has been flashing across our screen repeatedly. And this little boy, five years old, has all silver caps on his teeth which I
have never seen. Do you know why he has teeth like that? Because number one it is also significant when people look for him. That`s a very
distinguishing mark that people may recognize him which is great and please call the tip line which is flashing below our screen.
But, Stephanie, do you know anything about these caps?
AUSTIN: Nothing has opinion mentioned about why the child might have caps. There are some pictures that do show some bruises. But you know, children
do fall down.
IYER: Well.
AUSTIN: So it`s (Inaudible) how he got his bruises.
IYER: well, OK. Let`s talk about the bruises.
AUSTIN: OK.
IYER: So there are reports that the great aunt was told by the great grandmother that Lucas said he was hit and kicked by his parents. What do
you know about that?
AUSTIN: There is a local television station here reporting that a family member had concerns about the boy`s welfare after she was sent pictures of
him and noticed bruises on his face and neck. And then she became more concerned after she visited with Lucas and saw him in person and noticed
more signs that he was injured.
IYER: Stephanie, I want you to stand by. I want to play right now the police press conference.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVIDSON: Words to 100 personnel. A sign working this case at any given time. We continue to reach out to our community and ask if they have any
information regarding the whereabouts of Lucas Hernandez to please call our tip line.
This is very important as we continue into day three of looking for 5-year- old Lucas Hernandez. We have received numerous tips come in. And each tip is reviewed and assigned to an investigator for follow up.
We understand it is frustrating for the public to want to do more. However, the community can best help us by sharing the information on their social
media pages and providing tips to us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: Let`s bring in CNN senior law enforcement analyst Tom Fuentes who is a former assistant director of the FBI. Tom, thanks for being here tonight.
TOM FUENTES, LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST, CNN: Thank you, Seema.
IYER: Let`s start off by asking, you know, you heard the police presser. And they`re basically telling the community, don`t look for this kid. Do
you find that strange in your experience?
FUENTES: Yes, I do. I think that given the situation and given the fact that survival is extremely unlikely the longer this boy stays out in the
cold.
[18:29:59] And as you mentioned, 17 degrees there are now in Wichita. This is a very dangerous situation and I think, you know, going back to the
beginning of this, when you have a little boy like that, whether you have signs of abduction or not, knowing the survivability given the weather and
the unusual nature of the fact that he disappeared and the previous reports of possible child abuse by family members, I think all of that to me
warranted an immediate amber alert to try to find this boy as soon as possible.
SEEMA IYER, HOST, HLN: So you do think they should have issued an amber alert?
FUENTES: I do, yes, because in this situation, this is not just your normal -- obviously there`s not extreme evidence of a kidnapping or
abduction.
However, the fact that there had been child abuse cases that have been referred to the Child Welfare Department in Kansas and the fact that family
members were suspicious that he was being abused by his parents, and I am not clear whether they mean his father, stepmother, natural mother, I don`t
know, but the fact that this boy, five years old, exhibited signs of child abuse just a few months ago in November when visiting New Mexico with his
father, to me, that makes this a very, very difficult, suspicious, and urgent case to locate that boy starting Saturday when he went missing.
IYER: Right. OK, well, let`s just be clear so the viewers understand, Tom, that the mom, the step-mom, the dad, they are not suspects in this case
from what we know and what we can report.
However, let me ask you this question. So let`s say the boy goes missing on Saturday. The police do not hear of any reports of abuse in the home. They
don`t have this information. They find out the next day, Sunday or Monday, that this kid is possibly a child abuse victim. At that point, can they
issue an amber alert after the kid`s been missing for 24, 48 hours?
FUENTES: I don`t know. And I don`t know why the break down that the police would not be aware of reports of possible child abuse in the case of this
boy. I just don`t understand that. If this was a relative referred that to the Child Welfare Department in the state, certainly the parents would be
immediately suspect of that. They would immediately be interviewed by the authorities regarding that situation.
IYER: Tom, isn`t it -- isn`t it fair to say that we don`t know, maybe the parents have been interviewed. Maybe they are suspects. And isn`t it
possible that the police are not putting that out there because they are trying to preserve the investigation?
FUENTES: Certainly. You`re asking what you think is going on and the investigation has gone on since Saturday afternoon. What they say publicly
about it. Certainly they`re not going to say that. Police often use the ridiculous term persons of interest and all of this.
If they think somebody might have been involved and they are trying to rule out or rule in that involvement, that`s called suspects.
IYER: Right.
FUENTES: I`ve been in law enforcement more than 40 years, that would be suspect. So in the case of child abuse, who`s around that child day in, day
out, you know, that`s who would be the prime suspects of doing the child abuse.
You wouldn`t have -- there`s no evidence that there was another baby sitter that had been hired to do this or some kid from down the street that
watched that child in the middle of the afternoon while the stepmother napped or showered or anything else.
So, unless you have others that are possibly around that child to inflict bruises about the neck and head like the family member cited --
IYER: Right.
FUENTES: -- of course the parents would be immediately -- the suspicion would be on the parents.
IYER: Tom Fuentes, thank you so much for your expertise, and Stephanie Austin (ph) for your insight.
Next, a mystery turns into a blame game. The body of a young girl just disappears hours after her funeral. Now three years later, a multi-million
dollar jury award. The funeral home continues to deny it did anything wrong. Who is pointing the finger? That`s next. More "Crime and Justice"
after the break.
[18:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
IYER: A couple in Texas was just awarded $8 million but it`s hard to imagine them celebrating because it`s coming from suing the funeral home
they say lost their daughter`s body. Julie Mott was only 25 when she died after a long battle with cystic fibrosis. But hours after her memorial, her
body went missing from the casket. And to this day, it hasn`t been found.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
MARK GREENWALD, MOTT FAMILY ATTORNEY: We want to find what happened. We really thought when we started the case we would know more, but we don`t.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: Julie`s family accused the funeral home of gross negligence. But Mission Park is saying someone took her. And now on the losing side of the
lawsuit, they are speaking out.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT TIPS, FUNERAL HOME OWNER: They can`t make a complete decision without having all the facts. They don`t have anywhere near all the facts.
They are missing almost 80 percent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: With me now is my all-time
[18:40:00] favorite in the world, "Crime and Justice" producer, Michael Christian. Michael, thanks so much for being here.
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, CRIME AND JUSTICE PRODUCER: Thank you, Seema.
IYER: So, listen, this is a tragic story. This is a beautiful young woman and she had a long fought battle with a terrible disease and then her body
goes missing. She died a while ago, right?
CHRISTIAN: In 2015, so it`s been almost three years. It will be two and a half, three years this August, that she`s been missing. Never a trace of
her found.
IYER: When did the body go missing? When did they discover this? How long has this fight been going on?
CHRISTIAN: It`s been going on literally for two and a half years. She had a memorial service. After the memorial service, every one ultimately left.
Her body was left in a corridor of the funeral home. The next morning, her body was not in the casket.
Now, there are -- there was no sign of any break in into the funeral home itself. There was some sign of damage to the casket as if someone had
broken in. There was a broken hinge.
IYER: The hinge, right.
CHRISTIAN: But she literally was just gone. The poor thing vanished into thin air. Never been seen again.
IYER: OK, so, the hinge is significant because it looked like from the evidence during the trial that the testimony showed that maybe they didn`t
know how to open the casket. So they thought the hinge was locked and the hinge was damaged. And during the trial they actually brought in the
casket.
CHRISTIAN: Yes, that`s right. They brought in one that looked just like it.
IYER: OK, demonstrative.
CHRISTIAN: Correct. And apparently, I didn`t know this, but if you know how to open a casket, a coffin, you don`t open it that way where the hinge
would be broken. There`s actually a lower trap door and that`s how you would get the remains out.
IYER: Which is interesting because you would think that anybody who works at funeral home knows how to open the casket.
CHRISTIAN: Yes, or in that business, someone from the crematorium, for example.
IYER: Right. OK, so, let`s listen to what Robert Dick Tips is saying. He is the funeral home director.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
TIPS: There is no question the body was stolen. Some day, you`ll see the truth. We`ll all understand the truth. That`s really the end goal, is to
have her body back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: What is funeral home saying? What do they think happened?
CHRISTIAN: They say that the body was stolen. They point the finger at the person that they think stole the body who happened to be Julie Mott`s ex-
boyfriend.
IYER: Who is coming up in the next block.
CHRISTIAN: He is coming up. He has always denied it. He has been questioned by police. But again, this happened in 2015, and he has never
been arrested, he has never been charged.
IYER: What is his motive? Why would he steal the body? Why would he steal a dead body? And what he would do with it?
CHRISTIAN: Well, originally, his parents -- her parents, excuse me, said that he was obsessed with Julie Mott.
IYER: OK.
CHRISTIAN: And they thought that perhaps he just couldn`t let go. There was also a question about the decision to have her cremated, because
apparently he had said that he would have preferred that she was buried in a grave so he had some place to go visit her. Bit that is still quite a
jump from that to stealing a body.
IYER: OK, so from 2015 to now, what efforts have been made to find her?
CHRISTIAN: There were literally searches for her like you would do with a missing person.
IYER: Search part, OK.
CHRISTIAN: There was a reward that funeral parlor put up.
IYER: OK.
CHRISTIAN: No leads. Nothing.
IYER: OK, so let`s go through the jury`s verdict form, shall we? Can we put that up? So, can you explain to us how this verdict because originally
the family asked for a million and then they wanted 10 million but they got eight million.
CHRISTIAN: The actual lawsuit itself just asked for unspecififed damages of over $1 million. In closing arguments, their attorney suggested that the
proper amount for compensation would be $10 million.
Now, the defense instead said, well, there`s no negligence, so they shouldn`t get anything. But if they did get anything, it should be about
$125,000 because that would pay for some therapy for them.
IYER: That`s not enough. Eric Johnson, esquire, do you think this verdict is going to stand? And keeping in mind that only 10 out of 12 jurors
actually agreed with the verdict.
ERIC JOHNSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: What they got is a strong possibility to stand because unless the funeral home can present some third party that
actually came in to take the body, they`re going to be hard pressed to show that it wasn`t negligent on their part to allow it to disappear.
As you stated before, there has to be some explanation for the body to just disappear in thin air. And so if the funeral home is not able to prove
that, I do think that the verdict may stand. Now, the amount may be modified, but the verdict itself will probably stand.
IYER: All right. We are going to stay on the story. Don`t go anywhere, folks. Our conversation continues after this quick break with the man, the
funeral home has pointed the finger at, Julie`s ex, Bill Wilburn, next.
[18:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
IYER: We`re still talking about the body of a 25-year-old woman that went missing from a Texas funeral home and was never seen again. A jury just
awarded $8 million to her parents who sued the funeral home for negligence.
But tonight the lawsuit may be over because the funeral home isn`t done talking. They say they`re not responsible for losing Julie Mott`s body and
that maybe her boyfriend managed
[18:50:00] to steal her body in the hours between her memorial service and her cremation. And with me now is that boyfriend who is being accused, Bill
Wilburn. He is Julie Mott`s ex-boyfriend. Bill, thank you so much for being here again. I know you`ve been on the show previously, and we do
appreciate it.
BILL WILBURN, EX-BOYFRIEND OF JULIE MOTT: No problem. I can`t say I`m happy to be here, but I`m here.
IYER: Well, I`m also very sorry for your loss. I am going to ask you to go back and tell us about when you`re with Julie and how ill she was and when
she died.
WILBURN: Oh, well, going back to when she was sick. I mean, she didn`t really tell me that she was sick until maybe the few weeks after we started
dating. It did get slowly worse. I think we had two good years together. After that, she quit work and quit school and just kind of stayed at home.
And then she was pretty much bedridden throughout the last two years of our relationship, maybe the last year. And then after we had broken up, that`s
when she got on oxygen and, you know, it`s strange because even the day before she died, I talked to her on the phone.
She had called me up and said that she had just left the dentist and it was a beautiful day and she was driving. She was happy that -- she hadn`t
driven her truck in forever, she was just cooped up in her house. You know, everything seemed great. She seemed like really happy.
IYER: How long had you been broken up when she died?
WILBURN: I would say it was about two years.
IYER: OK, so, are you surprised that you are being looked at as a suspect for stealing her body?
WILBURN: You know, I`ve heard it said before that I was an easy target for some reason. Maybe because the way I reacted to being accused as the
obsessed boyfriend.
But, you know, she had friends, but they really kind of had their own lives going on and her family would check in on her every once in a while. She
did stay with her family after we had broken up. But, you know, I was really kind of the only person she talked to.
IYER: OK, I -- Bill, I`ve heard that you have a theory on what happened to her body. What is that theory?
WILBURN: I think that the funeral home just messed up. Pretty much. It`s strange to me that this would just happen to just one person. If there was
a theft that anybody could go in there and just take that one person -- not just just.
There`s some weird things about -- you know, it come to my attention that maybe her jewelry had been left behind. I know her mother had gone to pick
up flowers. These are all things that happened and they hadn`t noticed that a body had been stolen, you know, at that point. That`s crazy. He calls
husband lawyer first.
IYER: The jury was asked the question, did either John Doe or Bill Wilburn unlawfully appropriate the body of Julie Mott with the intent to deprive
the parents of the remains. And the jury said no. So the jury was definitely on your side. What was your reaction to that?
WILBURN: Well, you know, in the whole process leading up to the actual trial, I don`t feel like the investigation was enough at all, because it
had been even a year after and the cops were still harassing me. That`s ridiculous.
IYER: Bill, again, I am sorry for your loss, but let me ask you this. After the service, where did you go?
IYER: After the service I went straight to my grandmother`s house. I went to my grandmother`s house. I stayed and talked with her for about two hours
or so. After that I had lunch with my parents.
IYER: How upset were you that she wasn`t cremated?
IYER: You know, I`m really glad you`re bringing this up, because I would never take anything away from Julie, alive or dead. She was pretty stubborn
when she was alive. I always gave her pass with everything while we were together. It didn`t matter. When it comes to the way she wanted to die, I
would never take that away from her.
She was a very free-spirited person. So the fact that she wanted to be cremated didn`t surprise me at all. And I remember a long time ago, I did
have that discussion with her parents, and I did say, you know, it did was kind of off putting to me. For the longest time really, for me, personally,
I have always wanted (INAUDIBLE).
IYER: Well, Bill, again, I am sorry for your loss. I want to thank you for your time. I do want to thank Michael Christian also for bringing us this
case in such vivid detail. Police see a whole
[18:55:00] lot of things while out on patrol, but they don`t often see all of this on top of one of their cruisers. More on what is behind that black
box, next.
[19:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
IYER: We`ve got one more thing for you tonight. According to police in one small Texas town, there`s never a dull moment when they`re on the job.
Last Monday, officers in Palestine came across this guy, (Tyrone Billips). He was wondering around town butt-naked 39 degrees out so the cop stopped
to assist him and he jumped on to the hood of their Cruiser. Once they got him secure, he was arrested and booked for public intoxication.
The next hour of Crime and Justice starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I hope to god he doesn`t killer, I hope to god he doesn`t rape her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the Dollar Store where Rayne Perrywinkle and her three daughters where shopping when she says they met Donald Smith.
RAYNE PERRYWINKLE: He looked into my face and told me I was safe.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Prosecutors say the eight-year old was kidnapped.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was that the last time you ever saw your daughter alive?
PERRYWINKLE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He gagged her, raped her, sodomized her, and strangled her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ladies and gentlemen, find him guilty as charged.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: State maintains the death penalty is the right way to go with it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, it`s time to hold him accountable for what he did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A family pleading for answers and a safe return for five-year old Lucas Hernandez.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s cold out. We don`t know where he is.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The boy`s 26-year old stepmom says she woke up from a nap and didn`t find the five-year old inside the home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lucas was last seen wearing black sweats and a gray shirt with a bear on it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the air, on horseback and on ATVs, searchers were still unable to find the missing boy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re hollering his name up and down the street.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s really a sad thing. You never know what may have happened.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now, they`re just waiting and holding out hope for his safe return.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s no question the body was stolen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A family claims that the funeral home was negligent in the handling of 25-year old Julie Mott`s body.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We wouldn`t rule out anyone at this point.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Julie Mott`s boyfriend, who tips initially accused of stealing her body, is talking.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Me and her did really have a special relationship.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The jury has now granted Mott`s family $8 million.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This isn`t about the money. The amount of money (inaudible) to return the body.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A mystery turns blame game.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They can`t make a complete decision without having all the facts and they don`t have anywhere near all the facts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SEEMA IYER, HOST, HLN: Good evening. I`m Seema Iyer, in for Ashleigh Banfield. Welcome to the second hour of Crime and Justice, and possibly
the final hours before one man in Florida is sentenced to death for what he did to an eight-year old girl who he found shopping with her family at the
store.
PERRYWINKLE: I`m at Wal-Mart, and Cherish has been taken.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you mean?
PERRYWINKLE: Taken by a stranger. I can`t find her. He said he was going to McDonald`s, she went with him. I should have told her to stay with me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s gone to the McDonald`s inside the store?
PERRYWINKLE: Yes, there`s a McDonald`s inside the store and I don`t know why he would leave unless he`s going to rape her and kill her. It was the
only reason.
IYER: Unfortunately, that`s exactly what happened. The 56-year old man who offered to buy her daughter`s clothes and burgers was actually a
registered sex offender just released from jail. And the injuries he gave little Cherish Perrywinkle were so brutal that even the medical examiner
could barely talk about it at trial.
A jury has already convicted Donald Smith of kidnaping, rape and murder. Now, they have to decide whether he lives or whether he dies. But before
they make that decision, they`re hearing a chilling firsthand account from another woman he almost kidnapped as a girl.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARRIE ANN BUCK, WITNESS: He told me to (inaudible).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How would you describe his voice?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mean, scary. He said like, "I know you`re a little bitch (inaudible)." He looked at me (inaudible).
IYER: With me now is Rachel Stockman, editor-in-chief of the Law & Crime Network.
Rachel, I know that your network has covered this case gavel to gavel and if you could just encapsulate why the jury found him guilty in 12 minutes.
RACHEL STOCKMAN, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, LAW & CRIME NETWORK: Well, let me tell you, as I mentioned earlier when talking about this case, you know what,
this is just one of the most brutal, most heartless crimes you`ve ever heard about, and the evidence against this man was so mounting.
You saw that surveillance video that you showed earlier. You had firsthand accounts of what happened from the mother. It was an overwhelming case
against him. And as you mentioned, he was convicted in just 12 minutes. We are now in the death penalty phase of this trial. Will the jurors save
this man`s life?
IYER: And the prosecution, I understand, has only had testimony from one witness. There`s only going to be one witness for the prosecution and
that`s Carrie Ann Buck. Let`s listen and see how she describes how he lured her into the van.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he ask you if you wanted a ride?
BUCK: He did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what was your response to him?
BUCK: I told him, "No."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened after you told him no to the ride?
BUCK: He demanded that I get in the van. He told me to (inaudible).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How would you describe his voice?
BUCK: Mean, scary.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What (inaudible)?
BUCK: (inaudible).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did the defendant chase after you in that van?
BUCK: He did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: Rachel, there`s a very important piece of evidence that she`s talking about that was relevant back 25 years ago that`s still relevant
today and that`s the van. Talk about the van.
STOCKMAN: Exactly. Here`s a woman you just heard from testifying for the prosecution in the death penalty phase. Twenty-five years ago this
happened to her. She was almost kidnapped by this man when she was 13 years old and what happened to her is so crystal clear. She described that
van to the jurors. That same van or a similar van is also involved when Smith kidnapped that little eight-year old girl for which he is now on
trial for.
IYER: Are you surprised that the prosecution isn`t calling more witnesses?
STOCKMAN: You know what, I`m not surprised and that`s because for the last week, that`s last week, they were day after day having these really strong
witnesses. We listened to a secret prison tape in which Donald Smith seen there bragged about what he had done.
We heard from testimony, which you played earlier, from the mother in which she described what happened. I think they had so much evidence during that
stage of this trial that there really wasn`t anything necessary for the death penalty phase. And I have to tell you, I think the defense
attorney`s attempt on this to try to get mercy for this guy is just not going to work. He`s facing death.
IYER: Rachel Stockman, thank you so much for joining us on this case.
Now, let`s bring in retired Jacksonville Sheriff`s Officer Charlie Wilkie.
Officer Wilkie, I`m going to call you officer because once an officer, always an officer.
CHARLIE WILKIE, RET. JACKSONVILLE SHERIFF OFFICER: That`s fine.
IYER: Sir, I`m so appreciative that you are here tonight because you arrested this monster. I want you to paint the picture of this evil, evil
registered sex offender and how it is that you connected the dots between him when you found him and Cherish Perrywinkle.
WILKIE: Well, the morning that the Amber Alert went out, he was definitely the focus of our day. And after Officer Tina Henson located him on the
highway, we initiated traffic stop, a felony traffic stop. And we ordered him to stick his hands out the window and he just was very - I used the
word flamboyant in court, but he put his hands out the window and crossed them and that was just different in all the traffic stops we`ve done
before.
Typically, people just stick their hands straight out the window. And then when we had him exit the vehicle, he was just very callous. He raised his
shirt up so we could check his waistline and we asked him to spin around so we could check to make sure he didn`t have any weapons on him. And then
when we asked him to release his shirt, he threw his hands up in the air completely over his head and kind of gestured with his wrist and that kind
of thing. And it was just totally different than anyone that I`d ever dealt with before. When he walked back to.
IYER: Officer?
WILKIE: I`m sorry?
IYER: When you patted him down, how did that go? Did you notice anything?
WILKIE: Yes. When I had him handcuffed and then I did a cursory search of his waistline to make sure we didn`t miss a weapon, I noticed that his
pants were absolutely soaking wet. And I shouted that, "Oh, my God, she`s".
IYER: And what did that tell you?
WILKIE: They told me she was in the water, that he had disposed of her in a manner in which there was no way in my mind that we were going to locate
her and be able to resuscitate her or find her unconscious and that kind of thing. He had made sure that he had completed the fact that she would no
way be able to testify against him and was no longer a situation where we could find her alive and--
IYER: Your police work was remarkable.
WILKIE: Thank you.
IYER: So how were you specifically led to Cherish`s body?
WILKIE: Well, we had great tips from some of the neighbors in the neighborhood that noticed Donald`s van behind the church that morning. And
so we responded there immediately after we searched the van on the highway and didn`t locate Cherish there. We responded up to Broward Road, went
behind the church, met with the state attorney and the homicide detectives and supervisors and they advised me they`d already done a search of the
area and I said, "Well, she`s in the water. Where`s the water?" And they said, "What do you mean?" I said, "He`s soaking wet. She`s in the water."
And so they advised me there was a creek on the other side of the wood line and so Gator tracks, my dog, police service dog, Gator, tracks ground
disturbance. So it smells different where you`ve walked and where you hadn`t walked. So I got Gator out and cast him along the wood line and he
immediately picked up the track and took me right to the water. And so I knew then that we were in the right area and then I could see where Donald
Smith had drug her body, didn`t even carry her, just drug her out to the reefs and left a path that led out to a tree that was on its side. And
then I put Gator in the van I left him on the bank and I walked out. It was almost knee deep at that time, the tide was up and Cherish was lying on
her side facing away from me underneath a tree.
IYER: And what was she wearing?
WILKIE: She was wearing an orange dress that had a very specific fruit design on it, pineapples and bananas and that kind of thing. It`s an
orange-colored dress and my little girl had the same one, so I immediately identified that.
IYER: I don`t even know how you were able to keep it together and continue your job at that point when you see this dead little girl in the dress, the
same dress that your child has. I can`t even imagine what that did to you. And how else was the body positioned? And was anything on Cherish, did you
notice anything else?
WILKIE: Yes, ma`am. It was a very emotional time. When we go out there, we`re hoping to save him and then at that point you realize that you can`t.
The best you can do is preserve the evidence so that the person responsible can be held accountable.
But Cherish was laying on her side. She was facing away from me so I saw the right side of her face, her brown hair was floating actually with the
water. So her face was unobscured and her eyes were closed. And I could see her right shoulder and then the rest of her was pretty much all
covered.
I`ve taken pieces of broken asphalt and chunks of concrete that he found along the shoreline and placed it on top of her I guess in essence to weigh
her down. And then he took tree limbs and branches and things like that and had her completely almost covered up except for the one view I had of
her right shoulder and the side of her face. That was the only thing that I could see and it was up underneath the tree. I had to look underneath
the edge of the tree to even see that.
IYER: Officer, were you able to see any bruises or injuries?
WILKIE: No, ma`am. I could just see the right side of her face up in this area and then her hair and that was about it other than the shoulder of her
dress that I could see.
IYER: I know that you described him as being very callous and I`m going to guess that you probably didn`t find him to be very remorseful. Let`s
listen to some jailhouse audio of Donald Smith.
DONALD SMITH: These are young girls (inaudible). Man, he`s looking ast her ass. She`s like, "Oh." (inaudible) about 12, 13, but this whole
(inaudible) you can see their (inaudible). Yes, that white (inaudible) right here. That`s my party area right there. That`s what I go after,
you`d have fun with that one. (inaudible) would be the same (inaudible). (inaudible) looking like that, man, (inaudible). Yes, she had a lot for a
white girl.
IYER: OK. Officer, before you even comment on that audio, I just want to remind the viewers that Cherish Perrywinkle was eight years old and that
conversation in that jailhouse audio sounds like you could be talking about a 20-year old or a 30-year old. Does it sound like he`s talking about an
eight-year old?
WILKIE: No, not at all, and that`s what I, in talking to Mellissa Nelson from the State Attorney`s Office. We had talked about that, about these
tapes and the fact that he`s so callous. He talks about young girls as if he picked up a young lady at a bar or something that he had picked up on a
Friday night or something and he brags about how they look and describes their body and things like that that you can`t even imagine that anyone as
an adult would find arousing. These are poor, innocent, little children.
IYER: Officer, he`s clearly a sick man. And, listen, thank you for your time. Thank you for your incredible police work. And I`m sure that you
department is really upset that you retired because the law enforcement, we still need you. Thank you.
WILKIE: Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Thank you for having us on.
IYER: And an urgent search tonight for a five-year-old boy who vanished three days ago. And with temperatures dropping well below freezing
tonight, police say finding little Lucas Hernandez quickly is imperative, a look at his mysterious disappearance next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
IYER: Tonight, police in Wichita, Kansas are working around the clock using K-9s, horses and drones to search for this adorable five-year-old boy
named Lucas Hernandez. He`s been missing since Saturday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLEY DAVIDSON, POLICE OFFICER, WICHITA POLICE DEPARTMENT: As we entered the third day of searching for Lucas I want to again remind everyone he was
last seen wearing black sweats, white socks and a gray shirt with a bear on it. It was Saturday, February 17th at approximately 6:15 when officers
were dispatched to a lost juvenile call at his residence in a 600 Block of South Edgemoor.
Officers contacted his 26-year-old female stepmother who reported last seeing Lucas in his bedroom at approximately 3:00 PM.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: According to local reports Lucas` stepmom showered and fell asleep before waking up to find the backdoor open. That was now 72 hours ago.
And with freezing nighttime temperatures the family is just praying that little Lucas makes it safely home.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRISTIN EDSON, LUCAS HERNANDEZ`S COUSIN: I mean it`s cold out. We don`t know where he is. We want him home safely and it`s devastating, you`re
hollering his name up into the street telling him it`s okay, come out. It`s very hard to do. You never think it would happen to you until it
happens and you just pray it never does.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: With me now is Stephanie Austin, news anchor for KQAM Radio in Wichita.
Stephanie, break this down for us. What happened on Saturday and where is the investigation at in finding this adorable child who`s been missing for
too long?
STEPHANIE AUSTIN, NEWS ANCHOR, KQAM RADIO, WICHITA, KANSAS: Hi, Seema, it is very difficult. We`re in day four for the search for five-year-old
Lucas Hernandez.
The Wichita police responded to a call from Lucas` stepmother around 6:00 PM. She had last seen him in his bedroom around 3:00 PM and then she went
to take a shower and she fell asleep, and they have not seen him since. It`s been -- it`s been cold here and it has been a long time, I mean,
that`s several days for a child to be out just in his sweatpants and socks and a shirt.
And authorities have been searching -- have searched his home of course, his neighborhood and area parks.
IYER: Was anything else missing from the home besides the little boy?
AUSTIN: Police have not released a lot of details about that, saying they don`t wish to jeopardize their case. But nothing has been mentioned that
anything else was missing from the home.
IYER: OK, so now you talk about the weather. The weather was 22 degrees on Saturday when Lucas went missing and then 34 on Sunday and back down to
28 on Monday, so it`s getting colder as we speak, today it`s 17 degrees. And this little boy is out there in maybe nothing but sweatpants and a t-
shirt.
So let`s talk about what`s going on with the search. The local police say they have over 100 officers on the case. Is the FBI involved? Where have
they searched? What have they accomplished?
AUSTIN: The FBI has been called in to help, and they do have over 100 law enforcement officials working this case and that means mounted police.
That also means using the K-9 unit and also those who are manning the tip lines. So there are a lot of people actively looking for Lucas. They have
searched his home, they`ve searched his neighborhood thoroughly and they have searched area parks and still no sign of little Lucas.
IYER: Why was there no Amber Alert when Lucas went missing on Saturday or since then?
AUSTIN: An Amber Alert requires certain conditions. And since police are not calling this an abduction, then an Amber Alert was not warranted in
this case.
IYER: OK, they`re not calling it an abduction, but do we know whether the police are looking at the parents? So there`s the stepmom who discovered
him missing, there is the biological mom who I believe lives somewhere else, right?
AUSTIN: Correct.
IYER: Where does she live?
AUSTIN: I believe she lives in Newton, a surrounding town.
IYER: OK, surrounding town. And the dad, the dad wasn`t home at the time, correct?
AUSTIN: The police do not want to elaborate or whether or not he was home. They did say if they are suspecting anyone specific, they are just saying
very simply that they are looking for Lucas.
IYER: OK. So they said they are looking for Lucas, are they not being specific about whether the parents are being looked at as suspects now? Do
you know the answer to that yet?
AUSTIN: I believe that to be correct. They are not saying whether they are not they are looking at suspects or anyone else for that matter. They
are saying that the family is cooperating. I know that the family was questioned for about 10 hours yesterday, but there has been no one who is a
suspect in this case.
IYER: But there`s a five-year-old who just vanishes during the middle of the day, so there has to be some question about whether there was foul
play, otherwise where did he go, right?
AUSTIN: Absolutely. That`s the question, everyone is looking for Lucas.
IYER: Well, apparently they are looking at Chisholm Creek Park which is about five miles from the home. It`s 216 acres, this park, and there is a
lake in the park. Now why this is significant and I want you to elaborate, is that the biological mom has said that Lucas is scared of water.
AUSTIN: Correct.
IYER: So why are they looking at a park where there is a lake knowing that he`s scared of water? He wouldn`t go there voluntarily. So doesn`t that
indicate some foul play?
AUSTIN: I think that police have to follow every single tip that comes in to the tip line, as they said, they have been investigating all tips which
takes a lot of resources to do that. But they can`t rule anything out.
IYER: Right.
AUSTIN: And they`re not going to tell us details on what they are thinking or what they know in order not to jeopardize the case.
IYER: Right. A few more questions about Lucas, Stephanie.
AUSTIN: OK.
IYER: Now his picture has been flashing across our screen repeatedly and this little boy, five-years-old has all silver caps on his teeth which I
have never seen. Do you know why he has teeth like that? Because number one, it is also significant when people look for him. That`s a very
distinguishing mark that people may recognize him, which is great.
And please call the tip line which is flashing below our screen.
But, Stephanie, do you know anything about these caps?
AUSTIN: Nothing has been mentioned about why the child might have caps. There are some pictures that do show some bruises but, you know, children
do fall down. So it doesn`t say how he got those bruises.
IYER: Well, OK, let`s talk about the bruises.
AUSTIN: OK.
IYER: So there are reports that the great-aunt was told by the great- grandmother that Lucas said he was hit and kicked by his parents. What do you know about that?
AUSTIN: There is a local television station here reporting that a family member had concerns about the boy`s welfare after she was sent pictures of
him and she noticed bruises on his face and neck. And then she became more concerned after she visited with Lucas and saw him in person and noticed
more signs that he was injured.
IYER: Stephanie, I want you to stand by.
I want to play right now the police press conference.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVIDSON: Upwards to 100 personnel assigned to work in this case at any given time. We continue to reach out through our community and ask if
they have any information regarding the whereabouts of Lucas Hernandez to please call our tip line. This is very important as we continue into day
three of looking for five-year-old Lucas Hernandez.
We have received numerous tips come in and each tip is reviewed and assigned to an investigator for follow-up. We understand that it is
frustrating for the public to want to do more. However, the community can best help us by sharing the information on their social media pages and
providing tips to us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: Let`s bring in now CNN senior law enforcement analyst Tom Fuentes who is a former assistant director of the FBI.
Tom, thanks for being here tonight.
TOM FUENTES, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST, FORMER ASSISTANT DIRECTOR OF THE FBI: Thank you, Seema.
IYER: Let`s start off by asking, you know, you heard the police presser and they are basically telling the community, don`t look for this kid. Do
you find that strange in your experience?
FUENTES: Yes, I do. I think that given this situation and given the fact that survival is extremely unlikely the longer this boy stays out in the
cold, and as you mentioned 17 degrees there now in Wichita, this is a very dangerous situation.
And I think, you know, going back to the beginning of this when you have a little boy like that, whether you have signs of abduction or not, knowing
the survivability, given the weather and the unusual nature of the fact that he disappeared, and the previous reports of possible child abuse by
family members I think all of that to me warranted an immediate Amber Alert ...
FUENTES: I do. Yes. Because In this situation this is not just your normal -- obviously there`s not extreme evidence of a kidnapping or
abduction. However, the fact that there had been child abuse cases that had been referred to their child welfare departments in Kansas and the fact
that family members were suspicious that he was being abused by his parents. And I`m not clear whether they mean his father, a stepmother,
original -- you know, natural mother, we don`t know. But the fact this boy, five years old exhibited science of child abuse just a few months ago
in November when visiting New Mexico with his father, to me that makes this a very, very difficult suspicious and urgent case to locate that boy
starting Saturday when he went missing.
IYER: Right. OK. Well, let`s just be clear so that viewers understand, Tom, that the mom, the stepmom, the dad, they`re not suspects in this case
from what we know and what we can report. However, let me ask you this question. So, let`s say the boy goes missing on Saturday, the police do
not hear of any reports of abuse in the home. They don`t have this information. They find out the next day, Sunday or Monday that this kid is
possibly a child abuse victim. At that point can they issue an amber alert after the kid`s been missing for 24 or 48 hours?
FUENTES: I don`t know. And I don`t know why the break down that the police would not be aware of reports of possible child abuse in the case of
this boy. I just don`t understand that. If this was a relative referred that to the child welfare department in the state, certainly the parents
would be immediately suspect of that. They would immediately be interviewed by the authorities regarding that situation. So, I don`t -- I
don`t --
IYER: Tom, isn`t it -- isn`t it fair to say that we don`t know. Maybe the parents have been interviewed. Maybe they are suspects and isn`t it
possible that the police are not putting that out there because they`re trying to preserve the investigation?
FUENTES: No, certainly. You`re asking what you think is going on in the investigation and has gone on since Saturday afternoon. What they say
publicly about it, certainly they`re not going to say that. And then police often use the ridiculous term persons of interest and all of this.
If they think somebody might have been involved and they`re trying to rule out or rule in that involvement and that`s called suspects in normal
parlance. I`ve been in law enforcement for 40 years. That would be suspects. And on the case of child abuse who`s around that child day in
and day out, you know, that`s who would be the prime suspects of doing the child abuse. You wouldn`t have -- there`s no evidence that there was
another babysitter that had been hired to do this or, you know, some kid from down the street that watched the child in the middle of the afternoon
while the stepmother napped or showered or anything else. Unless you have others that are possible around that child to inflict bruises about the
neck and head like the family members cited, of course the parents would be immediately, there would --- suspicion would be on the parents.
IYER: Tom Fuentes, thank you so much for your expertise and Stephanie Austin for your insight. Next, a mystery turns into a blame game. The
body of a young girl just disappears hours after her funeral. Now, three years later a multimillion jury award. The funeral home continues to deny
it did anything wrong. Who is pointing the finger? That`s next. More CRIME AND JUSTICE after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
IYER: A couple in Texas was just awarded $8 million but try to imagine them celebrating because it`s coming from suing the funeral home they lost
their daughter`s body. Julie Mott was only 25 when she died after a long battle with cystic fibrosis but hours after her memorial, her body went
missing from the casket. And to this day, it hasn`t been found.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK GREENWALD, MOTT FAMILY ATTORNEY: We want to find what happened. We really thought when we started the case we would know more but we don`t.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: Julie`s family accused the funeral home of gross negligence. But Mission Park is saying someone took her and now on the losing side of the
lawsuit, they`re speaking out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT TIPS, FUNERAL HOME OWNER: I can`t make a complete decision without having all the facts and they don`t have anywhere near all the facts.
They`re missing almost 80 percent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: With me now is my all-time favorite in the world, CRIME AND JUSTICE producer, Michael Christian. Michael, thanks so much for being here.
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, CRIME AND JUSTICE PRODUCER: Thank you, Seema.
IYER: So, listen, this is a -- this is tragic story. This is a beautiful young woman and she had a long fought battle with a terrible disease and
then her body goes missing but she a while ago, right?
CHRISTIAN: 2015. So, it`s been almost three years, it will be 2-1/2, three years is August that she`s been missing. Never trace of her found.
IYER: When did the body go missing? When did they discover this? How long has this fight been going on?
CHRISTIAN: It`s been going on literally for 2-1/2 years. She had a memorial service. After the memorial service every one ultimately left.
Her body was left in a -- in a corridor of the funeral home. The next morning her body was not in the casket. Now, there are -- no, there was no
sign of any break in into the funeral home itself. There was some sign of damage to the casket as if someone had broken in. There was a broken hinge
to get in.
IYER: The hinge. Right, right.
CHRISTIAN: Right. But she literally was just gone, the poor thing vanished into thin air, never been seen again.
IYER: OK. The hinge is significant because it looked like from the evidence during the trial that the testimony showed that maybe they didn`t
know how to open the casket. So they thought the hinge was a lock and the hinge was damaged. And during the trial they actually brought in the
casket.
CHRISTIAN: Yes. That`s right. They brought in one that looked just like it. And --
IYER: OK. Demonstrative.
CHRISTIAN: Correct. And apparently I didn`t know this but if you know how to open a casket, a coffin, you don`t open it that way where the hinge
would be broken. There`s actually lower trap door and that`s how you get the remains out.
IYER: Which is interesting because you would think that anybody who works at the funeral home knows how who open the casket.
CHRISTIAN: Yes. Or in that business. Someone from the crematorium for example.
IYER: Right. OK. So, let`s listen to what Robert Dick Tips is saying. He`s the funeral home director.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TIPS: Well, there`s no question the body was stolen. And some day you`ll see the truth and we`ll all understand the truth. That`s really the end
goal is to have her body back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: What is the funeral home saying? What do they think happened?
CHRISTIAN: They say the body was stolen. They point the finger at the person that they think stole the body who happened to be Julie Mott`s ex-
boyfriend.
IYER: Who`s coming up in the next block, people. So don`t leave.
CHRISTIAN: He`s coming up. He has always denied it. He`s been questioned by police. But again, this happened in 2015. And he`s never been
arrested, never in-charge.
IYER: So what`s his motive? Why would he steal the body? Why steal a dead body? What would he do with it?
CHRISTIAN: Well, originally his -- her parents, excuse me, said that he was obsessed with Julie Mott.
IYER: OK.
CHRISTIAN: And they thought that and he just couldn`t let go. There was a question about the decision to have her cremated because apparently he had
said that he would have preferred that she was buried in a grave so he had some place to go visit her. But that`s still quite a jump from that to
stealing a body.
IYER: OK. So from 2015 to now, what efforts have been made to find her?
CHRISTIAN: There were literally searches for her like you would do a missing person. There was a reward that funeral parlor put up. No leads.
(CROSSTALK)
IYER: OK. So let`s go through the jury`s verdict form. Shall we, can put that up? So, can you explain to us how this verdict because originally the
family asked for a million and then they wanted 10 million but got eight million.
CHRISTIAN: The actual lawsuit itself just asked for unspecified damages of over $1 million. In closing arguments their attorney suggested that the
proper amount for compensation would be $10 million. Now, the defense instead said, well, there`s no negligence so they shouldn`t get anything.
But if they did get anything, it should be about $125,000 because that would pay for some therapy for them.
IYER: Oh, that`s not enough. Eric Johnson, esquire, do you think this verdict is going to stand and keeping in mind that only 10 out of 12 jurors
actually agreed with the verdict.
ERIC JOHNSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think it has a strong possibility to stand because unless the funeral home can present some third party came
in to take the body, they`re going to be hard pressed to show that it was a negligence on their part to allow it to disappear. As you stated before,
there has to be some explanation for the body to just disappear in thin air. And so if the funeral home is not able to prove that, I do think that
the verdict may stand. Now the amount maybe modified but the verdict itself will probably stand.
IYER: OK. We`re going to stay on this story. Don`t go anywhere folks. Our conversation continues after this quick break with the man the funeral
home has pointed a finger at, Julie`s ex, Bill Wilburn, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
IYER: We`re still talking about the body of a 25-year-old woman that went missing from a Texas funeral home and was never seen again. The jury just
awarded $8 million to her parents who sue the funeral home for negligence. But tonight they`re also maybe over because the funeral home isn`t done
talking. They say they`re not responsible for losing Julie Mott`s body and then maybe her boyfriend managed to steal her body in the hours between her
memorial service and her cremation. And with me now is that boyfriend who`s being accused, Bill Wilburn. He`s Julie Mott`s ex-boyfriend. Bill,
thank you so much for being here again. I know you`ve been on the show previously and we do appreciate it.
BILL WILBURN, JULIE MOTT`S EX-BOYFRIEND: No problem. I can`t say I`m happy to be here, but I`m here.
IYER: Well -- and I am also very sorry for your loss. But I am going to ask you to go back and tell us about when you were with Julie and how ill
she was and when she died.
WILBURN: Oh, wow. Go back day when she was sick. I mean, she didn`t really tell me that she was sick until maybe a few weeks after we had
started dating. And it did get slowly worse. I think we had two good years together and then after that, I know -- she quit work and quit school
and just kind of stayed at home and then she was pretty much bedridden throughout the last, I would say, two years of our relationship, maybe the
last year. And then after we had broken up, that`s when she had gotten on oxygen and, you know, it`s strange, because even the day before she died, I
talked to her on the phone and she had called me up and said she had just left the dentist and it was a beautiful day and she was driving, she was
happy that she hadn`t driven her truck in forever, she shouldn`t cooped up in her house, you know, and everything seemed great. She seemed like
really happy. So --
IYER: How long had you been broken up when she died?
WILBURN: I would say it was about two years.
IYER: OK. So, are you surprised that you are being looked at as a suspect for stealing her body?
WILBURN: You know, I`ve heard it say before that I was an easy target for some reason. Maybe because of the way I reacted to being accused as the --
as the obsessed boyfriend. But, you know, she didn`t -- she had friends, but they really kind of had their own lives going on. And her family would
check in on her, you know, once -- every once in a while. She did stay with her family after we had broken up, but you know, I was really kind of
the only person she talked to.
(CROSSTALK)
IYER: Bill, I`ve heard that you have a theory on what happened to her body. What is that theory?
WILBURN: I think that the funeral home just messed up. Pretty much. It`s strange to me that this would just happen just to one person. If there was
a theft that anybody could go in there and just take that one person. Not just that, there`s some weird things about how -- you know, it came to my
attention that maybe her jewelry had been left behind. I know that her mother had gone to pick up flowers. I mean, these are all things that
happened and supposedly they hadn`t noticed that a body had been stolen, you know, at that point. So that`s crazy. And he calls lawyer first, so,
anyway.
IYER: The jury was asked the question, did either John Doe or Bill Wilburn unlawfully appropriate the body of Julie Mott with the intense to deprive
the parents of the remain and the jury said, no, so the jury was definitely on your side. What was your reaction to that?
WILBURN: Well, you know, in the whole process leading up to the actual trial, I don`t feel like the investigation was enough at all because it had
been even a year after and the cops were still harassing me. And that`s ridiculous.
IYER: Bill, again, I am sorry for your loss. But let me ask you this, after the service, where did you go?
WILBURN: Oh, after the service, I went straight to my grandmother`s house. I didn`t mean to say it like that, but I went to my grandma`s house and I
stayed and talked with her for about two hours or so. And then after that, I went and had lunch with my parents. And -- huh?
IYER: How upset were you that she wasn`t cremated?
WILBURN: You know, I`m really glad that you`re bringing this up, because I would never take anything away from Julie, alive or dead. She was pretty
stubborn when she was alive. And I always gave her a pass with everything while we were together. It didn`t matter. And when it comes to the way
she wanted to die, I would never take that away from her. And she was very -- a very free-spirited person. So the fact that she wanted to be cremated
didn`t surprise me at all. And I remember a long time ago, I did have that discussion with her parents and I did say, you know, it did was kind of
off-putting to me, for the longest time, really, for me, personally. I`ve always wanted to be buried. But now I think I want to be cremated.
IYER: Well, Bill, again, I`m sorry for your loss and I want to thank you for your time. And I do want to thank Michael Christian also for bringing
us this case in such vivid detail.
Police see a whole lot of things while out on patrol, but they don`t often see all of this on top of one of their cruisers. More on what is behind
that black box, next.
