Return to Transcripts main page

Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield

Pattern of Bombings in Texas Investigated by Police; Zahau Family Fighting for Rebecca`s Justice; Murder Or Suicide?; Deadly Tinder Affair; Bizarre Motive Revealed. Aired 6-8p ET

Aired March 13, 2018 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:00] (JOINED IN PROGRESS)

S.E. CUPP, HOST, HLN: -- Banfield is up next.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HOST, HLN: Good evening, everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. Welcome to Crime and Justice.

When you stay in a motel you expect a little noise from the neighbors but you don`t expect a bullet through the ceiling, which is why a man in

Colorado called the police right away back in October and it`s a really good thing that he did because that wasn`t even the worst thing that was

going to happen in that motel that night.

As the officers arrived they learned a 3-year-old girl was inside that upstairs hotel room with an unstable man who just happened to have a sawed

off shotgun.

The encounter they had with him at the door to him was electrifying especially since they knew that girl was just behind that door. And they

have just released the body cam video of what happened. And a warning this could be tough to watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me see your hands. Put your hands up. Let me see your hands. Let me see your hands. Drop the gun. Drop the gun right now.

Drop the gun. Drop the gun.

Get the baby out. Get the baby out. Get the baby out. Get the baby out right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stay over there. Stay over there!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get the baby. Go back. Seventy forty, send up medal -- medical.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go back in your car now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My God.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s OK. She`s OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re going to clear the rest of this. Anybody else inside?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: She`s OK. She`s OK. That child was taken to safety but the 26- year-old man named George Newman who was handling that sawed off shotgun well, he would die from his injuries. And the toxicology results would show

that he had, quote, "extremely high levels of meth in his system."

Three days later, this story would get even worse because that`s when the police would find the body of a woman who had been stabbed to death in her

own home and they say that it was Newman who killed her before trying to burn her body and then stealing that very shotgun that he was holding at

the door.

The officer who killed him was placed on leave but the shooting was later ruled to be justified.

In San Francisco, another young man gunned down by the police but some say this shooting isn`t justified because this man wasn`t just hit twice. This

man was shot 99 times.

An armed robbery suspect caught minutes after the crime hiding in the trunk of the getaway car. The driver had already surrendered to the police but

there was still a young lady in the backseat and in the trunk, 19-year-old Jesus Duarte who wasn`t moving when the officers told him to put up his

hands.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, hey. Let me see your hands.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Red light. Red light. Red light.

(FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Red light.

(FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: It is unclear at this time exactly what started all those bullets flying but Duarte was reportedly struck by 25 of them. Twenty five

out of 99 bullets that were fired by the officers.

And that`s what caused the locals to chant murderer at the town hall meeting where this footage was actually released, and now the district

attorney is investigating the case.

Shooting somebody dead is usually what lands you in court. It is not usually the setting for a killing. But video has just been released of

this. A U.S. marshal in Utah opening fire on gang member who rises out of his seat, grabs a pen off the desk and lunges at that shackled witness on

the stand.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get on the ground now. Get on the ground. Drop the gun. Drop the (muted) gun. Drop it out of your hand.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Twenty-five-year-old Siale Angilau did not survive that marshal`s gunshots and we still don`t know why he went after this witness

in the way he did.

[18:05:01] His family decided to sue for wrongful death. Before you lose your case here or your steam or your mind, the judge decided to dismiss

that case.

For 18 years a madman terrorized this country by simply using the United States Post. Theodore `Ted` Kaczynski, also known as the Unabomber sent 16

explosives in the mail to targets all across the United States and he successfully killed three people with those package bombs and he injured 23

others.

And the fear that was felt throughout this country before the Unabomber was caught is flooding back to a lot of people tonight. That`s because in

Austin, Texas investigators are meeting to figure out who is dropping off death packages on the porches of innocent people.

Three of the nine-looking boxes on different doorsteps in the past 11 days have exploded, killing 39-year-old Anthony Stephan House on March 2nd, and

17-year-old Draylon Mason on Monday, as well as hurting his own mother. But that was before another box critically injured a 75-year-old woman the very

same day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNAMARIE CASTILLO, NEIGHBOR: It was like glass or it looked like glass like on her skin or whatever like it exploded on her. She was covering her

face. They heard the explosion. They felt it in the house. She explained to me the windows like were rattling and everything. It was like really,

really loud.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Police say there is reason to believe these explosions are indeed related but they`re not sure if the victims knew each other or if

they were specifically targeted.

And there were a lot of people are drawing attention to the fact that all of the victims were black and Hispanic. There is not yet an indication that

these are hate crimes.

All we know tonight is that they were essentially pipe bombs that were rigged to explode upon opening, and that there`s now a $65,000 reward for

any details that can help to hunt down the killer. Because as investigators put it, this murderer is very good at it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIAN MANLEY, POLICE CHIEF, AUSTIN POLICE DEPARTMENT: The suspect or suspects that are building these devices they do have a level of skill.

They are putting these bombs together. They are transporting them to their intended locations and then actually delivering them without detonating

them either or during construction or deployment. And that takes a -- that`s takes a level of skill because what we have seen is that when the

victims have picked these packages up they have at that point exploded.

So there`s a certain level of skill and sophistication that whoever is doing this has. And again, we`re hoping that we will, you know, use the

evidence that we have to try and track them down based on what we`re seeing on all three scenes that seems to be consistent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: With me now, CNN national correspondent Ryan Young standing by live in Austin. There`s some news that`s coming in right now that I want

our viewers to get. Ryan, 265 people have now called in about suspicion packages. What do we know about that?

RYAN YOUNG, NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, CNN: Well, imagine that that fear factor sort of rising in the area. Of course, police are asking people if

they see packages, anything that`s strange to call in and make that 911 call. Allow them to come out and look at it. And that`s happening. People

are calling.

In fact, we went to a business today that shut and locked its doors because they were worried about the same thing. They wanted to make sure no one was

coming this that they didn`t know.

And I`ll set the scene for you right now. You see behind me the FBI van. We`re in the neighborhood where that 75-year-old woman picked up that

package. FBI investigators and ATF investigators and local police have been teaming throughout those neighborhoods all day long as they have been

talking to people and canvassing hoping to find some bit of evidence to link all this together.

We do know now that according to police they believe the same bomb maker has been involved in all of this. And just like you heard the chief say

there`s a level of sophistication that is involved in this that someone could pick up package and then have it explode.

But you`re talking about a span of few days and then all of sudden you have back to back bombings.

People are concerned. They are worried that this could really have an issue with the community. Now as we talk to the mayor today he was really

imploring to people if they have any sort of notice to make sure they call and give them any kind of tips moving forth because obviously, people are

on edge when you have three sets of bombings like this, a 17-year-old and a 39-year-old losing their lives. Another woman is in critical condition. And

if you think about her she was in the room when her son died. It is devastating.

BANFIELD: Yes. You know, as awful as that is it may help in this case because she survived this and she knows what the package looked like before

it exploded. And then of course the older woman as well who was injured, I think the 75-year-old Hispanic woman also, her package exploded. She

survived but she`s in critical. I don`t know if she`s been able to give a description.

Do these packages all look alike? Do we know what the modus operandi is at this bomber? And there`s information going out to the public to

specifically watch out for something in particular.

[18:10:02] YOUNG: That is a great question, you know, we ask that. So here`s a couple of things here. One, they will not give us what the package

look like just yet. And I`m sure there`s a reason for that in terms of the investigation level. So they commented we just know that they`re unmarked,

OK.

The other part of this is they are saying they`ve not been delivered by UPS. They weren`t delivered by FedEx. Someone is dropping these packages

off at the location to where the bombings have happened.

And when you see the aftermath of what these bombs have been able to do especially on the outside of first home, you can see the power that they

had. In fact, one of the neighbors telling us it looked like the first man, Anthony House had lost his hands during that explosion. So you know how

terrifying and how powerful these bombs are.

BANFIELD: All right, Ryan, stand by. We`re getting a little bit more information. Plain cardboard packaging. So far just about the only

descriptive information we have about these packages and that they are average size delivery boxes. Not exceptionally large. Plain cardboard

packaging, though. No delivery logos of any kind.

I want to bring in retired FBI special agent and bomb technician Jim Maxwell. Jim, what are authorities doing right now behind the scenes to

make sure that another one doesn`t go off. Thank God, nothing today. No explosions today but you just heard 265 people at least afraid enough to

call the police about a package they got.

JIM MAXWELL, RETIRED SPECIAL AGENT, FBI: Sure. This type of investigation sets off a flurry of phone calls and the authorities will be tied up with

some false leads for quite some time. But this is a task force level investigation and it`s a multi-faceted case.

We have an extended crime scenes. Several -- three crime scenes here where explosions have taken place. A post-blast investigation has to be done.

Interviews of everybody who was a witness in this case. You know, what the explosion sounded like, what it smelled like, what the smoke looked like

were all indicative of what type of explosive and what type of device was used.

The crime scene itself, what type of shrapnel was used. The background investigations on each and every individual that comes back to those

addresses in an effort to find a common denominator in this investigation. It`s a --

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: Sure. And there`s also this notion, Jim that is unique. And I`m getting mixed signals on it so I don`t know what to make of it. One signal

is that whoever is doing this is very skilled. That the triggers were meant to go off upon opening the package and yet, two of these victims were just

picking up the package when the packages went off.

So, I mean, with your expertise, does that mean that they`re not skilled. They`re not that sophisticated. It triggered before it was supposed to or

does it mean absolutely nothing?

MAXWELL: Well, I can tell you this much that this guy has or whoever is involved has a certain level of skill. He successfully delivered, armed and

fired an improvised explosive device to three different occasion.

This type of information is readily available on the internet. And you know, with somehow, with reasonable intelligence who can follow directions

could build the device like this.

But the first thing you got to look at is somebody with either prior military or some sort of commercial training in explosives and start to

narrow down your list from there. But I wouldn`t rule out someone with reasonable intelligence who could follow directions and not knowing more

the device until the crime scene is, you know, investigation is completed we really can`t give you an accurate picture.

I will say though, this is a -- it looks like at least two out of three of the explosions is victim activated. In other words, the actions either

opening the box, lifting the box or moving the box caused the device to initiate.

So until, you know, we get a better look at what the mechanisms were, you know, an improvised explosives we`re looking at off the shelf material.

Every day items that are improvised to fashion an explosive device.

BANFIELD: Yes.

MAXWELL: So, right now it`s anybody`s guess.

BANFIELD: Hold that thought for a moment, I want to bring in another Jim.

MAXWELL: Sure.

BANFIELD: Jim Fitzgerald is a retired FBI profiler who was on the team that cracked the Unabomber case. In case, we have photograph of him in

front of tent -- of Ted Kaczynski Montana cabin, that secluded cabin where the Unabomber was found in fact. He`s also the author of a "Journey to the

Center of the Mind."

So, Jim Fitzgerald, I obviously thought of you because was there -- do you think there`s anything from the Unabomber case 22 years ago, that helps us

today in something that seems somewhat similar except for the fact that it`s not going through U.S. Post, it`s not going to a delivery service.

These packages unlike Ted Kaczynski`s packages, are physically being placed on the victim`s doorsteps.

JAMES FITZGERALD, AUTHOR, JOURNEY TO THE CENTER OF THE MIND: Well, Ashleigh, there are some similarities and that we`re actually not just 22

years. We`re going back just about 40 years when the actual 1978 on the Unabomber, you know, did his first bombing.

[18:15:03] They didn`t -- all his bombs, by the way, all his IED those explosive devices did not go through the mail just like this person in

Austin. He actually placed some of them too. However, I`m sure everyone remembers the iconic composite sketch of the Unabomber with the aviator

sunglasses and the hoodie. That`s when he came relatively close to getting caught and he changed his M.O.

First of all, he took six years off. Didn`t come back until `93. And from that point on he only mailed devices through the U.S. Postal Service. So, a

little bit of difference there but certainly some similarities too in that. In the early days the Unabomber he would place them and it would be a

motion device, a plunger or something inside a spring mechanism that would cause the explosion and of course people to be killed.

BANFIELD: And Jim Fitzgerald, the irony between these two cases is that, and you really have to sort of go back and read through, you know, the

history of the Unabomber and why he did what he did. We all remember the manifest but what was in it. It turned out that Ted Kaczynski was

frustrated with modern day technology. He felt that it was eroding human freedom and dignity.

And the truth is we are so much further advanced in technology that almost every home has a surveillance camera and if the homes in these

neighborhoods or nearby these victims homes don`t have surveillance cameras, businesses or traffic lights have surveillance cameras.

So Jim Fitzgerald, I`m guessing that tracking down this killer may actually be a lot easier than tracking down Ted Kaczynski.

FITZGERALD: Well, it may be but it`s still going to take a lot of work on the part of FBI, ATF and of course, the local police there. I notice it`s

i-35 corridor in Austin and the bombers seems to be working from the north to south, east of the interstate. And I`m not sure if that`s the particular

pattern that works for this person or not.

But you`re absolutely right, Ashleigh. I mean, there are so many cameras out there today of all sorts. The police put up and certainly private

sector business, as well as everyday citizens have. So they are going to be going through every single one of them not just looking for somebody

walking down the street but certainly what cars are coming into the area at given time.

There`s obviously an egress and ingress to this person. I don`t think they are close enough to three separate locations where this person can walk.

But he may be familiar with at least the bombing site. That`s the one where Mr. House was killed.

Usually the first offense, the first incident of a serial offender of any kind, that`s his area of familiarity, his comfort zone. And I wouldn`t be

surprised if somewhere in this guy`s past he has some connection to that area. And of course, he may have a connection to the victims also. We don`t

know that yet.

BANFIELD: Well, Jim Fitzgerald, thank you for that expertise. My thanks to Jim Maxwell, as well, and to Ryan Young, our correspondent.

I keep thinking if Ted Kaczynski would even talk and if he could or would talk, would it make any difference. He`s rotting in the super max. Like I

said for two decades since his reign of terror stopped. It`s been 40 years since dealing with the Unabomber. So we`re going to follow that story as

the details come in to us.

I also have some breaking news out of Florida to give tonight. Prosecutor there have announced that they have made their decision. They are going to

seek the death penalty in the case against this young man. The allege school shooter, Nikolas Cruz who was accused of gunning down 17 students

and faculty at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School last month.

In the filing, the prosecution described the attack as especially heinous and atrocious. Cruz through his attorney had previously expressed a

willingness to plead guilty to avoid the death penalty.

One month anniversary of the tragedy is tomorrow. And students across the country are planning walk outs in support of the Parkland students and to

demand tougher gun laws in America. But there you have it. Death on the table for Cruz.

Up next, we`re trying to unravel the mystery of how Rebecca Zahau died and could she have done it to herself. Could she have done this? Tie up her own

hands and feet and then just hurl herself off a balcony naked and gagged.

Also you can now listen to our show any time. Just download our podcast on Apple podcast, iHeartradio, stitcher, tune or wherever you get your podcast

for your Crime and Justice fix.

[18:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: You would not think that it would take six and a half years and a whole lot of back and forth between experts and still no agreement on how

a woman was killed, especially when that woman was found naked and bound and gagged and hanging from the balcony of her boyfriend`s mansion.

But in San Diego, the experts refuse to agree that this beautiful woman, Rebecca Zahau, was in fact murdered. Even after her family brought in an

expert into the courtroom who said the knots that bound her were indeed nautical.

[18:25:03] And it is really weird to see video in a courtroom of a mannequin, a mannequin that`s very, very life like complete with painted

toenails and painted fingernails. The judge requesting they at least drape the midsection.

But this is what happened in this case. A boat captain, a retired boat captain coming in and actually binding the mannequin at the hands and at

the feet to show this is not only difficult, this is usually done by people who know nautical knots. Have a listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LINDSEY PHILPOTT, RETIRED BOAT CAPTAIN: When you use figure eight wraps, what happens is that you cross the individual wraps and you create more

friction on the object that you`re tying so as to make it more difficult for the object to come apart. And this is a technique that is used

nautically.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: To say that`s something creepy for a jury to absorb, I think is an understatement. With me now is Miles Himmell, he`s a reporter for KFMB

AM760. Miles, as just a bit of backdrop because I think a lot of people are really into this case.

You know, Rebecca Zahau was found hanging from that balcony and even though she was bound and gagged and naked and tied up so intricately, the M.E. in

that jurisdiction said that was suicide.

And in the civil case that her family has launched against the brother of her boyfriend who she and her family, you know, the family is pointing to

him as the killer, they say, they`ve done this. They brought all this sort of demonstration in. What`s the newest thing happening in this case?

MILES HIMMEL, REPORTER, KFMB AM 760: Yes, well, so last week you talk about the doll. This was fascinating. An $8,000, it`s actually a sex doll

that local company here makes. Like you talked about they covered it up. They showed how these knots were done and they showed that the rope would

expand this way and that way and they would crack certain ways.

And that was fascinating and then this week, this week`s case they got over $60,000 worth of experts coming into the courthouse. It`s a fascinating

week. By the way, they are thinking later this week that Shacknai, Adam Shacknai will take the stand.

BANFIELD: And Adam Shacknai is the brother of Jonah Shacknai. Just again to do some background here. Jonah is the boyfriend who owns the mansion and

Jonah was Rebecca`s boyfriend, and it was Jonah`s 6-year-old son who accidentally died in Rebecca`s care.

And the theory by Rebecca`s family goes that Jonah`s brother was so angry at what his brother`s girlfriend neglected to do who look after this little

6-year-old boy and he died after a terrible fall that he -- that he killed Rebecca.

To be clear, the police never charged Adam Shacknai. To be clear, the police never called this a murder. And to be clear, the M.E. never called

it a murder. And then this case comes along and another medical examiner, another expert, a pathologist named Cyril Wecht on this stand says, no, no,

no. This was no suicide. Take me from there.

HIMMEL: yes. That`s been the case. Everybody here in San Diego, at least if you`re not going to charge someone with murder, if you don`t believe you

have enough evidence against the Shacknai`s or whomever, just lever it open. But to call it a suicide, everybody has been saying, wait, this is a

girl that had a strong religious background.

Suicide is not within the realm if you talk to friends or family and why they made that leap is beyond me. At least leave it open. So Mr. Wecht at

stand, like to talked about, he comes in and says this doesn`t look right. And that`s been the whole case going on. And then you had a kinesiologist

in the courthouse today explaining the physics behind the hanging.

Everybody here in San Diego said, why did they make that conclusion that it`s suicide.

BANFIELD: And so that I`m also clear, Miles, we`re, I think couple of weeks into this case now. It is a civil case. It`s a wrongful death case.

This is Rebecca`s family angry at the Shacknai brothers but particularly one who they`re pointing the finger and they`re suing about Rebecca`s

death.

When Cyril Wecht took the stand -- I want to play a quick moment. It was all about how the body of Rebecca was exhumed three months after the

medical examiner in your jurisdiction did the work and, you know, signed the certificate.

So the body is exhumed and examined again by Cyril Wecht who makes an opinion that ended up changing. So this is what this moment in court was

about with Cyril Wecht on the stand. Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CYRIL WECHT, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: In my opinion, Rebecca Zahau`s death is a homicide. She was manually strangled and then it was hit up to appear to

be a suicide with hanging.

[18:30:04] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In spite of your knowledge about this hemorrhages, you concluded that her cause of death was asphyxiation by

hanging, is that correct?

WECHT: Argumentative and asked and answered (ph).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, PRIMETIME JUSTICE SHOW HOST, HLN: So, what`s interesting, Miles (ph), is that that change which is exactly why I want to

bring in forensic pathologist, Cyril Wecht, who joins me now live.

Dr. Wecht, it`s good to have you on the program. I do want to ask you about your work in relation to Rebecca Zahau`s case. I don`t understand your

science. You have to be way smarter than I am to do what you do. But I do understand changes in opinion and I am always curious about that.

Initially, you said, when you did your exam, that Rebecca died from asphyxiation due to hanging and that the manner of death was undetermined,

don`t know if it`s suicide, don`t know if it`s homicide. That manner was a tricky business. But then your opinion changed ultimately. I think it was

two years later.

You said that you were leaning towards homicide instead of undetermined. And then now, here we are five years later, and it says after additional

research, you have changed your opinion to the fact that she was strangled and that she was hit in the head. How did you come to those determinations

and why it had taken so many years?

WECHT: Ashleigh, I did the second autopsy back in 2011. And while I did agree at that time that the cause of death appeared to be asphyxiation by

hanging, I said that the manner of death should have been left as undetermined. I was extremely critical of the fact that in just seven

weeks, they signed this case out and called it a suicide with no further investigation.

It was six years later that I received many additional materials and information from other experts. The knot tying expert, the question

document expert that, you know, "she saved him, can you save her?," the DNA expert, the kinesiologist, the forensic scientific criminalist, and I put

that all together.

The medical research led me also to the conclusion that this was a manual strangulation. Well, I had questions which I raised in 2011. That was read

in court yesterday. In my report to Attorney Anne Bremmer, I said that there was a strong likelihood that this could be manual strangulation. I

said that in 2011.

What brought me to the conclusion that I was able to testify with reasonable medical certainty at this time was research that showed that the

cricoid cartilage which is the first cartilaginous ring at the top of the trachea well down below the Adam`s apple was fractured.

I will just tell you very quickly, in one exhaustive research study by a top medical examiner`s office in Canada, of 2700 cases, they found one case

in which the cricoid cartilage was fractured. And most of the forensic pathology textbooks including one that I have written don`t even mention

the cricoid cartilage as being fractured in hanging.

The other thing is that when you review everything and give every detail ample consideration, think of this, this young woman, 32 years old, 5`3",

she`s got her ankles bound so tightly that the calves are contused, she got her wrists bound behind her back, and she has got that shirt overlying the

ligature around her neck three times stuffed into her mouth, and there she is.

And they have her getting up over a three-foot balcony, bound like that, and then hurling herself down, the body goes down nine feet, two inches, 26

inches from the ground. If you have a body that hurdles in that fashion completely out of control in one fast swoop, you`re going to have probably

partial decapitation. You`re going to have one or more fractured dislocations of the cervical vertebrae as the neck is pulled up. She had no

injuries at all to the cervical vertebrae.

BANFIELD: That`s a lot of information. I tried to process it all and I have about a thousand more questions but I am out of time. So, I want to

ask you this, doctor. Will you come back and talk to me a little bit more about this?

Because I want to know why you didn`t see that little piece of cartilage broken the first time around or not broken the first time around. And I

also want to know all about the notion for the lay guy, like me, I`m with you. It sounds crazy that somebody would do this to herself in that manner

and make it --

WECHT: Me too, Ashleigh, and she was nude.

BANFIELD: Yes, that whole part too. Listen, everybody has a different, you know, thing --

WECHT: Women do not commit suicide nude, yes, thank you.

BANFIELD: That`s kind of where I`m at as well. Will you come back again because I do want to talk about all these things.

WECHT: Yes.

BANFIELD: This case is ongoing and it will be interesting to see what happens. Dr. Wecht, thank you so much for that.

WECHT: My pleasure.

BANFIELD: My thanks to Miles Zimmel (ph) as well. Police say an outraged girlfriend went on a medieval binge on her boyfriend because that boyfriend

was cheating.

[18:33:00] She found the Tinder app on his phone and another girl`s hair in the shower.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): OK, where is the knife?

EMILY JAVIER, CHARGED WITH ATTEMPTED MURDER (voice over): It`s by him. I used a sword.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): You used a sword? OK.

JAVIER (voice over): Yes.

BANFIELD (voice over): Yes, yes, yes. You heard right. She used a sword. To be more clear, a samurai sword.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[18:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: She came out of the house covered in blood. And the first thing she said as she stood there squinting into the police highlights was, he`s

in there. Her hands were the air but she wasn`t done talking. Through her tears, she sputtered, I just stabbed him.

As confessions go, it doesn`t get much better than that, unless of course they are repeated over and over, because just moments before Emily Javier

delivered that bloody (INAUDIBLE) on the front steps, she had called police to deliver confession number one.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Nine-one-one. Can I help you?

JAVIER (voice over): I just stabbed my boyfriend.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): What is the address there?

JAVIER (voice over): Camas, Washington. I think he`s dying. You got to hurry up.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Tell me what happened.

JAVIER (voice over): I stabbed him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Is he awake wake?

JAVIER (voice over): He`s dead. I think he`s dead. You need to hurry.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): OK, what is your name?

JAVIER (voice over): Emily.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): OK. Emily, I need to get some help started, I`m splitting the call. Hold on.

JAVIER (voice over): I think he`s dead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Now, before you think Emily was defending herself in a fight for her life as too many are forced to do, that is not what happened here, at

least according to Emily herself. She admitted that she was mad at her boyfriend for three different reasons.

Because he downloaded Tinder, because he had mysterious scratch marks on his back, and because she had found a red hair in the shower drain. So,

naturally she bought a samurai sword.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Where did you stab him?

JAVIER (voice over): In the bedroom.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Where on his body? Where on his body?

JAVIER (voice over): Everywhere. Everywhere.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Can you get a clean dry clot or a towel and put it right on the wound?

JAVIER (voice over): I can`t go in there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Emily, Emily, where is the knife right now? Are you able to go in the room? Emily, can you go in the room?

JAVIER (voice over): I can`t go in there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): OK. Emily, who else is in the house?

JAVIER (voice over): Just me, him and the dog but the dog is in the backyard.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): OK, where is the knife?

JAVIER (voice over): It`s by him, I used a sword.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): You used a sword? OK.

JAVIER (voice over): Yes. Hurry.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Emily, if it`s possible for you to go in there to him, we may be able to help him if you can put --

JAVIER (voice over): There`s too much blood.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): OK. Are there any other weapons in the house, Emily? Any guns or other knives?

JAVIER (voice over): There`s two knives in the bedroom.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Emily, they`re on their way as fast as they can, is your door unlocked already?

JAVIER (voice over): I can`t believe I did this.

BANFIELD (voice over): Now, Emily Javier is facing first-degree attempted murder. Because lucky for her, the guy she wanted to kill did not die.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: With me now, Shane Kavanaugh, staff writer for "The Oregonian." Our thanks, Shane, to you guys, for providing a copy of that. Unbelievable

911 call. She made one of her appearances wearing a protective suicide smock. So clearly, she`s in a lot of trouble mentally and legally. What

triggered this episode?

SHANE KAVANAUGH, STAFF WRITER, THE OREGONIAN: Well, as we reported and most of this account had come from Emily Javier first hand when she talked

to police after the incident.

It appears that she grew extremely jealous and suspicious of her boyfriend after discovering a Tinder app on his telephone, scratches on his back, and

later she tells police she found some red hair in the couple`s shower drain and as you may see, her hair is actually dyed green.

BANFIELD: Wasn`t she angry that he was ignoring her that night when he came home from work as well?

KAVANAUGH: Right. You know, she told police that she had purchased a samurai sword about a week before and was thinking about attacking her

boyfriend with it. And then he came home on a Friday night around 9:00, started ignoring her, she told police, and later on that evening, she

attacked him with the samurai sword.

BANFIELD: Apparently she fixed the sword as well as a couple of knives to the side of the bed and then waited for him to go to sleep. And by the way,

we have connected with that poor victim, Alex Lovell, via Facebook. He was too exhausted to join us. But give me a moment, Shane, as I want to read

what he sent to us.

He said, I didn`t get much sleep last night because my left hand had three fingers which were almost cut off. I`m struggling today just trying to

sneak in as much sleep as possible.

[18:45:01] I`m a hundred percent both physically and mentally. Obviously, I got some gnarly injuries, one on each limb, but I could have lost all

four limbs.

And I would still be happy (INAUDIBLE) right now. The feeling I had when I won the fight with my bare hands is absolutely the best feeling. I`ve

played all the sports, won big games, landed some decent tricks on my snowboard, et cetera. This was better.

I kept my friends in the loop with my recovery on Facebook. Lots of misinformation going around. I just want to make sure my closest peeps are

taken care of first, then it can spread through the word of mouth or people creeping on my page, et cetera.

My dog is the real hero in this situation because he was there in the backyard barking, letting her know what is up. My feelings toward Emily are

not really important. She did what she did for whatever reason, and it was nutty that I was able to winged on my way to survival. Big ups to it man.

Not sure what that means. Clearly he`s quite happy he`s OK.

I can`t say I saw this coming but when she woke me up on accident, I knew what was going on and it made sense. I have prepared my whole life for

something like this. And I was just so proud of myself for beating this samurai wannabe crazy lady with hate in her heart.

He sent us these photos as well. Alex, thank you for your very extensive comment. We are wishing you a speedy recovery.

Caroline Polisi, as a defense attorney, you got your witness. He`s alive and he is clearly willing to speak.

CAROLINE POLISI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes.

BANFIELD: You got your confession number one. You got your confession number two. She laid it all out on the light and then pleaded not guilty.

How is that going to go?

POLISI: I think what`s so interesting about this case is that first blast when you listen to that 911 call, it sounds like a textbook heat of passion

killing.

But then when you find out more and more details about the case, you see that she planned this with chilling detail and chilling precision and

accuracy over the course of the week leading up to it.

So, there really is no good defense in terms of wanting them to charge second-degree, not premeditated --

BANFIELD: Throw some spaghetti, real quickly, 10 seconds on the wall, what would you choose as a defense?

POLISI: Yes, I mean, you could say that it was a very long period during which she was getting agitated. You know, you could say it was sort of an

extended heat of the passion sort of from the first time that she found out, oh, he got on Tinder and then she finds the hair --

(CROSSTALK)

(LAUGHTER)

BANFIELD: Sorry.

POLISI: I mean, that would be a kind of a difficult argument to make.

BANFIELD: I think she`s toast.

POLISI: She is toast.

BANFIELD: She toasted herself. My, God. Samurai sword and all. Caroline, thank you. Shane Kavanaugh, thank you as well. Alex Lovell, please, get

well soon.

We`re learning some more information tonight about why a Texas doctor allegedly gunned down this young couple right in front of their children as

they were helping his mom. Police say it is a crazy tale of mobsters and suspicion of drug abuse. Just wait until you hear it.

[18:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: It seemed he had no reason to do it. To shoot his neighbors dead from the upstairs balcony while they were simply visiting his property to

help his mom move some furniture. And on top of that, to shoot them right in front of their own children.

But, tonight, the police say that indeed he did. He did have a reason. Although it is a little bit of a head scratcher to say the least. His name

is Robert Fidel (ph). And he`s telling the police a pretty strange tale, suggesting that those neighbors were Russian mob members who come to murder

his mother because he was developing a conspiracy about Jewish people.

And he said all of this only after police were asked to take down the digital clock from the wall because he could not speak around anything

connected to the radio or the internet. This man was once a respected small town doctor who police say now was just high as a kite on meth or

prescription drugs.

And if that`s true, that abuse may have just cost a gorgeous young couple their lives and three young children, their parents. So, with all those

drugs and all that crazy talk, could Dr. Fidel (ph) actually mount an insanity defense?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think he`s trying to get away with murder.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Salt in the wound. I don`t think -- I think he won`t get away with it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Caroline Polisi, will he? Could he?

POLISI: No, absolutely not. There is no legal defense not guilty by reason of methamphetamine, OK? That just does not play any part in a not guilty by

reason of insanity defense. He would have to have a long period in his history showing a systematic mental illness.

BANFIELD: And then he would have to prove he didn`t know right from wrong, et cetera, et cetera.

POLISI: Exactly.

BANFIELD: Even then, it is hard to win. Horrible story, but at least we know the background. Thank you, Caroline. Don`t go anywhere. When Charles

Manson died, never imagined that there would be a big long line of people waiting to claim his body, but there was. One more thing, straight ahead.

[18:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: One more thing for you tonight, and it is the resolution of the absurd fight over what to do with Charles Manson`s remains. The notorious

murderer died four months ago, and there were actually four different parties jockeying to get custody of his body.

[19:00:00] A California judge decided that the cult leader`s remains will go to his grandson who said that he plans a cremation. And here is the

weird part. He also wants to invite the other people who were trying to claim (INAUDIBLE) because quote "he wouldn`t want them to miss out," end

quote.

Next hour of CRIME AND JUSTICE starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was supposed to put him back behind bars. But instead she put him six feet under. Why this bail officer mom says she

shot her client in the back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mom. You just shot him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And how she was cleared of murder.

She was found naked, gagged and bound.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was initially bound. We believe the tape residue on her legs --.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hanging from her boyfriend`s balcony.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is pretty obvious she was murdered.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But investigators said she did it to herself.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s no evidence of a struggle.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now a famous pathologist testifies this was no suicide.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was manually strangled and then set up to appear to be a suicide from hanging.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But if that`s the case, who killed Rebecca Zahau?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somebody who knew and used nautical type knots.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They say hell hath no fury like a woman who finds tender on her boyfriend`s phone. This woman admits she knifed her man with

a samurai sword.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just stabbed my boyfriend.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: While he was sleeping.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He doesn`t deserve (INAUDIBLE) no wrong.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And police say she planned the whole thing before calling police to tell them what she done.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where is the knife?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s by him. I used a sword.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You used a sword. OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And she even refused to help while her boyfriend was bleeding out.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you able to go in the room?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is too much blood.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: Good evening, everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield.

Welcome to the second hour Of CRIME AND JUSTICE.

Taking your kids to work can be huge. They get to see what you do, how you interact with other people and they may pick up some of the traits of your

co-workers and folks in the office themselves, right.

The son of Chastity Carey doesn`t want to learn anything from his day on the job. Because Chastity, mom, is a bail bondsman who tried to trick a

criminal back into her office so she could arrest him and get him into jail and she used her son as the bait. But what could possibly go wrong? Well,

something did. And let`s just say that Chastity is the one who had to pick up a gun.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need you to hurry. I`m a bondsman. He is coming after me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shots fired.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He turned away from me. As soon as I shot him, oh, my God.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: The thing about those claims that Williams was coming after her is that there`s video evidence that doesn`t seem to show Williams coming

after her and the video is her own. It`s what her son recorded that day on a Go Pro that she just happened to have obtain and set up in the room.

It`s a good thing too because Chastity had been concerned that Brandon Williams was leaving the state. She paid his bond. So she tricked him to

detain him. She told him to come to the office before he left and maybe they would make a deal on his car. Maybe her son would buy his car. Sure

would give him some money.

Starts out casually enough. Williams reading her son and taking off his shoe and getting comfy. Even sounds like he makes a joke. But when

Chastity then tries to actually get him into handcuffs, well, that surprise actually turns deadly. The police say this with no moment of self-defense

despite what Chastity claims.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hand behind your back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Turn around.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you mean?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Turn around.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is going on here? Don`t put your hands on me. Don`t put your hands on me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Turn around and put your hands behind your back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why? Why are you doing this for?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Turn around.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are you doing this to me for? Holy (bleep).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mom. You just shot him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did. Call PD.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mom, oh, my God.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 911. 911! Don`t go out that window. I just shot a man.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[19:05:05] BANFIELD: With me now Scott Mitchell, host of Mitchell Talks.

Scott, what an unbelievable video. And I think the irony is, is that this son`s video ended up being the problem in the story that she told the

police. What did she tell the police happened in that office?

SCOTT MITCHELL, HOST, MITCHELL TALKS (on the phone): Well, she said it was self-defense and when you watch this video it`s a shot on a Go Pro that

belonged to her son. She said she testified that she did it out of defense. Self-defense. She testified that he tried the diseased tried to

grab her gun while attempting to make an arrest.

And on top of that, Ashleigh, the jury watched the video last week. And then on Friday they acquitted her of all the charges. So you saw it. I

saw it. They saw it and then they said, not guilty.

BANFIELD: So that is a very intriguing findings because when you are looking at this, clearly there`s a lot you do see and clearly there`s a lot

you don`t see. And I would imagine that the jury was more taken with what you don`t see than what you do see. She was facing first-degree murder.

And in Oklahoma that brings with it the death penalty. I`m not even sure in this case, Scott, if they were seeking the death penalty. Do you know?

MITCHELL: I do not think that they would give us a special circumstances case that as you see, the things - Ashleigh, as you point out, it`s what

you don`t see in the screen that I`m sure is what became a big issue in this case. We don`t know what the guy was doing. What Williams was doing

because he was out of frame. But certainly, she appears to be under control and like I said, the jury saw it.

BANFIELD: But did she give a clear narrative of what she alleges Brandon Williams did out of frame? I get it. People say I felt afraid. I acted

in self-defense, but why? What did he do exactly? Did he spin around? Did he go for the gun? Did he go for her throat? Like what happened out

of frame in her version of events?

MITCHELL: Well, there present a lot of testimony but at the end of the day, she was saying she felt threaten and that`s why she opened up on the

guy. But when you see the video it just looks like a different story. But you know, back to the jury system on this country. They have seen this

over and over. And she appears to be very comfortable. You know, not to be that threatened. And you know, after the shooting she turns her back.

Moves around there. The kid s obviously, her son is obviously, he is very traumatized. He was completely shaken but she appeared to be pretty under

control. And then you see where the kid goes and gets the camera down. So I don`t know.

BANFIELD: The one spot you miss there, though, that I thought was particularly interesting. After she shot Brandon Williams, she put the gun

back in the drawer so very methodically went about immediately taking care of business. Put the gun away. Walk out of room. Get the phone. Call

911. And tell them that this had happened.

Here is what I`m troubled by. The gunshot went through his back, his lower back and then exited oust his chest. So forensically, the depiction is

that he was climbing through the window which doesn`t suggest someone is climbing through your window to get out of your room is coming back at you.

So how did the jury hear differently than the actual forensics depicted?

MITCHELL: Well, there was so much in the early stages of the case, the reports in Oklahoma ward that he was trying to escape. That was a

narrative that we heard a lot here. And then as you mentioned what was told to the jury.

But I will tell you. There`s two things about this video. One is the young man, her son, is just you watch his face, he is horrified by this.

She on the other hand is very much under control. And after you shoot someone you wonder, how do you turn your back and go about your business

very calmly? Because she is one cool cookie right after she squeezes off those rounds. I mean, you just see this. I mean, boom and then there`s

not five seconds of valuation, she is turning around and going back to business.

BANFIELD: And the business that she did right away was to call 911.

I want to ply this moment where she actually suggests that, I think he either turned away from her or turned towards her. This is what she told

91 is right away. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 911.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I shot a man. I`m top of the roof of the town center on the third floor.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Did you say you caught a man or you shot a man?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I shot.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. What is your name, please?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is Chastity. I need you to hurry. I`m a bondsman. He was coming after me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shots fired.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Turned away from me. As soon as I shot him, oh, my God.

[19:10:05] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, ma`am. I just want to confirm. He is on the roof?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, ma`am. He is in the roof.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. I have officers headed that way OK. Can you give me a description for the individual that you shot?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Brandon James Williams. He is in gray tank top and jeans?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what are you dressed in?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m in jeans and a (INAUDIBLE) t-shirt.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you shoot him with a weapon?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, ma`am. I shot him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With a weapon. You shot him with a weapon?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: here is a weapon. The weapon is in my office.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: So what`s interesting there is he was coming after me. He turned away from me as soon as I shot him. Now you cannot see that on the

video. But you can`t see that it didn`t happen either.

So as we watch this all play out again in real-time, I want to bring in Jarrod Stevenson and Emily Kirkpatrick. They both represented Chastity

Carey in the trial. They obviously won the acquittal, the not guilty.

Thank you both for being with me tonight. I`m struggling through this because, I think, you know, obviously I don`t know the whole case. I was

not in the courtroom as you litigated this. But what did you tell the jury happened off camera to give them the reasonable doubt that the bullet that

went through his back and out through his chest wasn`t a man being shot as he was trying to escape from Chastity as opposed to coming after Chastity?

JARROD STEVENSON, REPRESENTED CHASTITY CAREY: I mean, you hit the nail on the head that what is not on camera is what the jury struggled with because

there is a six to seven second time period between the time we see the mini blocking thrown up and the time there`s a shot. And Mrs. Carey has always

believed and testified and so did her son that at that point in time Mr. Williams went over into the corner and when she reached for the gun, he

knew she was going for something that she always kept that gun in the drawer. And that as he makes a reaching out movement towards her which

would still be off camera is when she grabbed the gun. And as soon as he realized she has the gun, he begins to turn and she shoots.

And while we are talking about scientifically, there is no other way this shot could have happened other than the way that Chastity Carey stated

because while you are correct, it`s in the bottom right, it`s a front to back, right to left upward angle. So this bullet went straight through.

Didn`t hit anything else as straight line shot. And then it went into the roof. So he is not out of the window. He is leaning down potentially

trying to go out. But at that time, there`s no way that he was out the window. Nothing else to suggest that he was not still in that room at the

time.

BANFIELD: So Emily, do you think that -- this is such an unusual situation. Because typically when you have a case, you have a defendant

who, you know, shouldn`t be but often is considered the bad guy in the courtroom and then you have this poor victim, you know, who is victimized

by said alleged bad guy.

But in this case you got a criminal. This is the criminal who is in that bail bondsman office. So, you know, he is kind of the bad guy to start

with in their minds. Do you think that whole sort of character description worked its way into their decision?

EMILY KIRKPATRICK, REPRESENTED CHASTITY CAREY: I really don`t in this particular case. Our jury, they went by the law in the state of Oklahoma.

They tried very hard to stick to the exact elements for first degree manslaughter and didn`t let any other factors like sympathy or the fact

that Mr. Williams was a multiply convicted felon enter into their deliberations.

BANFIELD: I still find it so hard. I mean, you know, you never leave your common sense, you don`t check it at the door when you go into jury

deliberation deliberations. As we watch this play out, I want to ask our viewers to keep their eyes on the sun. As chastity pulls the trigger, his

reactions might tell quite a story. If that man was coming after his mom in the threatening way that she said, I would think that that son would

with terrified and would be shocked and his body would move in a way or his face would move in a way, but watch. Nothing of the sort until the shot

goes off. That`s when he jerks into action and looks shocked. Did that ever come up?

STEVENSON: Yes, he testified that he just was frozen at the point in time that this man went around behind the desk. He had never been on this type

of thing. That (INAUDIBLE) was always with people where go voluntarily. He was in frozen and that was his words that he didn`t know what to do.

But that he gave the most clear and most consistent statement from the very beginning. Never altered it in any way. That would be substantial and he

always said this person came after his mom, put hands on his mom and then he froze. We talked about that in his testimony. He wish he would have

done something different but he didn`t.

BANFIELD: So do you think that Chastity would have even been charged if it weren`t for that Go Pro? Because she would have given her version of

events. And they would have had very little to go on other than her version of events. But he was well in tape. Would she have been charged

in your estimation?

[19:15:14] STEVENSON: No. She was let go when she made her statement. They didn`t have the video at that time. She was free to leave. They

actually took her back to her car. She is home where she was - where she told she would be at.

No, I don`t believe it would. And it fill (INAUDIBLE). And I don`t think that is right because he did what he thought was right. They thought they

were righteous in their actions. And so they voluntarily gave all these information to them. No one that --.

BANFIELD: Yes. Hold that thought for a minute because I want to bring in Michelle Esquenazi. She is the CEO of Empire Bail Bonds. So, you are like

- I have never understood how you can do this work because you are confronted with dangerous people for a living. They sit across a desk from

you for a living.

MICHELLE ESQUENAZI, CEO, EMPIRE BAIL BONDS: Exactly.

BANFIELD: And so, I`m not surprised that she had a gun this the drawer. I don`t know if you do. I don`t know if that`s a concern of yours at all

times to be in self-defense mode at all times. Are you?

ESQUENAZI: I mean, I think that, you know, we are always prepared. It is just part of the nature of, you know, what we do for a living. We are just

-- that`s part of our training.

BANFIELD: Yes. So - here is the deal. As I understand your business, she posted that $35,000 bond for him, right. So if he skips town, she is on

the hook for the 35k, right?

ESQUENAZI: We all are. That`s part of our industry.

BANFIELD: If he dies, what happens to the 35k?

ESQUENAZI: I mean, that would be up to the judge. But if he died, I mean, this the case would then be over essentially.

BANFIELD: You get it back, right? She get the - bond back. She posted the bond.

ESQUENAZI: Right. But the bond is a document. So it`s not like you get the physical $35,000.

BANFIELD: But she`s not on the hook for it if he dies.

ESQUENAZI: Right.

BANFIELD: So this is why I`m so curious. And I don`t know if this was a big issue for the jury or not. But, you know, he was about to go to

Florida. He texted her like I`m out of here.

ESQUENAZI: Right.

BANFIELD: And that`s why she went into to crafty mode thing no, no, no. You skip town, you go over state line and I`m out 35k. I`m going to lure

you into this office.

ESQUENAZI: Right.

BANFIELD: And then she tries to (INAUDIBLE) to go out the window. She see her 35k go out the window.

ESQUENAZI: That`s accurate.

BANFIELD: Isn`t that a motive to kill him?

ESQUENAZI: I don`t think that was a motive to kill him. And I mean, obviously, she was acquitted. So I don`t even want to say that she did

necessarily kill him. I think that it was a very unfortunate situation. I think it was unfortunate for everybody that is concern. I that, you know,

she might have had some issues as it might have related to training. She was bond, a young bondsman, in terms of tenure. So - but she was

acquitted. And that, you know, we believe in the jury system, right? And the jury system acquitted her.

BANFIELD: Ten seconds, Carolina Polisi, defense attorney. Are you surprised an Oklahoma jury acquitted her?

CAROLINE POLISI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`m a little bit surprised, Ashleigh, only because I have watched this go pro footage over and over and over

again. I do not doubt she felt worried, fearful but, you know, the camera doesn`t lie. And just as we heard, she likely would not have been charged

were it not for this footage. And you don`t check your common sense at the door. So just as a citizen watching that video footage, I have to say it

does not look like self-defense to me.

BANFIELD: It`s fascinating. Michelle, thank you. Caroline, thank you. My thanks also to Jarrod and Emily and to Scott Mitchell as well.

I have some breaking news I want to bring you on Florida tonight. Prosecutors have said they will indeed go after the death penalty in the

case against alleged school shooter, Nikolas Cruz.

Yes, he is the one accused of gunning down those 17 kids and faculty at Marjory Stoneman Douglas last month. In the filing, the prosecutors

described the attack as especially heinous and atrocious. Got to do that for death penalty.

On one month anniversary of this, by the way, is tomorrow. And kids across the country are planning to walk out of their school in support of the

Parkland students and also to demand tougher gun laws in the U.S.

Up next; we are trying to unravel the mystery of how Rebecca Zahau died. And could she have actually done this to herself? Tie her hands and feet

and then just hurl herself off a balcony naked? We will dig into that in a moment.

Also you can now listen to our show any time. Download our podcast on Apple podcast, iheart radio, Stitcher, Tune IN or wherever you get your

podcast for your CRIME AND JUSTICE fix.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:24:21] BANFIELD: You would not think that it would take six and a half years and a whole lot of back and forth between experts and still no

agreement on how a woman was killed especially when that woman was found naked and bound and gagged and hanging from the balcony of her boyfriend`s

mansion. But in San Diego, the experts refuse to agree that this beautiful woman, Rebecca Zahau was in fact murdered even after her family brought in

an expert into the courtroom who said the knots that bound her were indeed nautical. And it`s really weird to see video in a courtroom of the

mannequin, a mannequin that is very, very life like complete with painted toenails and painted fingernails. The judge requesting they at least drape

the midsection.

But this is what happened in this case. A boat captain, a retired boat captain coming in and actually binding the mannequin at the hands and at

the feet to show this is not only difficult. This is usually done by people who know nautical knots. Have a listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[19:25:35] LINDSEY PHILPOTT, RETIRED BOAT CAPTAIN: When you use figure eight wraps, what happens is that you cross the individual wraps and you

create more friction on the object that you`re tying to as to make it more difficult for the object come apart.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: To say that`s something creepy for a jury to absorb is an understatement.

With me now Miles Himmel. He is a reporter from KFMB AM 760.

Miles, as just a bit of backdrop because I think a lot of people are really into this case. You know, Rebecca Zahau was found hanging from that

balcony. And even though she was bound and gagged and naked, and tied up so intricately, the M.E. in that jurisdiction said that was suicide. And

in the civil case that her family has launched against the brother of her boyfriend who she and her family, you know, the family is pointing to him

as the killer, they say, they have done this. They brought all this sort of demonstration in. What`s the newest thing happening in this case?

MILES HIMMEL, REPORTER, KFMB, AM 760: Yes. Well, as of last week, you talk about the doll. This was fascinating, an $8,000. It`s actually a sex

doll that local company here makes. Like you talked about they covered it up. They showed how these knots were done and showed the rope would expand

this way and that way and would crack certain ways. And that was fascinating. And then this week, this week`s case they have gone over

$60,000 worth of exports coming into the courthouse. It`s fascinating week. And by the way, they are thinking later this week that Shacknai,

Adam Shacknai will take the stand.

BANFIELD: And Adam Shacknai is the brother of Jonah Shacknai (ph) just again to do some background here. Jonah is the boyfriend who owns the

mansion. And Jonah was Rebecca`s boyfriend and it was Jonah`s 6-year-old son who accidentally died in Rebecca`s care. And the theory by Rebecca`s

family goes that Jonah`s brother was so angry at what his brother`s girlfriend neglected to do, look after this little 6-year-old boy and he

died after a terrible fall that he killed Rebecca.

To be clear, the police never charged Adam Shacknai. To be clear, the police never called this a murder and to be clear, the M.E. never called it

a murder. And then this case comes along and another medical examiner, another expert, a pathologist name Dr. Wecht on the stand and says, no, no,

no. This was no suicide. Take me from there.

HIMMEL: Yes. That`s been the case. Everybody here in San Diego, at least if you not going to charge someone with murder, if you don`t believe you

have enough evidence against the Shacknais or whomever, just lever it open. But to call it a suicide, and everybody has been saying, where -- this is a

girl that had a strong religious background. Suicide is not within the realm if you talk to friends or family and why they made that leap is

beyond me. At least leave it open so you have Mr. Wecht take the stand like you talked about. He comes in and says this doesn`t look right. And

that`s been the whole case going on. And then you had (INAUDIBLE) to the courthouse today explaining the physics behind the hanging. Everybody here

in San Diego is saying why did they make that conclusion that it`s suicide?

BANFIELD: And so that I`m also clear, Miles, we are - think what a couple of weeks into this case now. It`s a civil case. It`s wrongful death case.

This is Rebecca`s family angry at the Shacknai brothers, but particularly one that they are pointing the finger and they are suing about Rebecca`s

death.

When (INAUDIBLE) took the stand, I want to play a quick moment, it was all about how the body of Rebecca was exhumed three months after the medical

examiner in your jurisdiction did the work and, you know, sign the certificates. So the body is exhumed and examined again by (INAUDIBLE) who

makes an opinion that ended up changing. So this is what this moment in court was about with Cyril Wecht on the stand. Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. CYRIL WECHT, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: In my opinion, Rebecca Zahau`s death was a homicide. She was manually strangled and then it was set-up to

appear to be a suicide and hanging.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In sight of your knowledge about these hemorrhages (ph), you concluded that her cause of death was a fixation by hanging. Is

that correct?

[19:30:07] WECHT: Argumenta and that`s an answer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So what is interesting, Miles, is that that change which is exactly why I want to bring in Forensic Pathologist Cyril Wecht who joins

me now live.

Dr. Wecht, it`s good to have you on the program. I do want to ask you about your work in relation to the Rebecca Zahau case. I don`t understand

your science. You have to be way smarter than I am to do what you do. But I do understand changes in opinion and I`m always curious about that.

Initially, you said when you did your exam that Rebecca died from asphyxiation due to hanging and that her manner of death was undetermined.

Don`t know if it`s suicide, don`t know if it`s homicide. That manner was a tricky business. But then, your opinion changed ultimately. I think it

was two years later you said that you were leaning towards homicide instead of undetermined. And then, now, here we are five years later and it says

after additional research you have changed your opinion to the fact that she was strangled and that she was hit in the head. How did you come to

those determinations and why it would have taken so many years?

CYRIL WECHT, M.D., FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Ashleigh, I did the second autopsy back in 2011 and while I did agree at that time that the cause of

death appeared to be asphyxiation by hanging, I said that the manner of death should have been left as undetermined. I was extremely critical of

the fact that in just seven weeks they signed this case out and called it a suicide with no further investigation. It was six years later that I

received many additional materials and information from other experts. They`re not tying expert, they questioned document expert, that you know,

she save him, can you save her? The DNA expert, the kinesiologist, the forensic scientific criminalist, and I put that altogether.

The medical research led me also to the conclusion that this was a manual strangulation. While I had questions which I raised in 2011. That was

read in court yesterday in my report to Attorney Anne Bremner. I said that there was a strong likelihood that this could be manual strangulation. I

said that in 2011. What brought me to the conclusion that I was able to testify with reasonable medical certainty at this time was research that

showed that the cricoid cartilage, which is the first cartilaginous ring at the top of the trachea, well down below the Adam`s apple, was fractured.

And a -- I`ll just tell you very quickly, in one exhaustive research study by the top medical examiner`s office in Canada, of 2700 cases they found

one case in which the cricoid cartilage was fractured. And most of the forensic pathology textbooks including one that I have written, don`t even

mention that cricoid cartilage as being fractured in hanging.

The other thing is that when you review everything and give every detail ample consideration, think of this, this young woman, 5 -- 32 years old,

5`3", she`s got her ankles bound so tightly that the calves are contused, she`s got her wrist bound behind her back, and she`s got that shirt

overlying the ligature around her neck three times stuffed into her mouth, and there she is. And they have her getting up over a three-foot balcony

bound like that and then hurling herself down. The body was down nine feet, two inches, 26 inches from the ground. If you have a body that

hurdles in that fashion completely out of control in one fast swoop, you`re going to have probably partial decapitation. You`re going to have one or

more fractured dislocations of the cervical vertebrae as the neck is pulled up. She had no injuries at all to the cervical vertebrae. So --

BANFIELD: That`s a lot of information, then I`m trying to process it all and I have about 1,000 more questions but I`m out of time. So, I`m going

to ask you this, Dr. Wecht, will you come back and talk to me a little bit more about this? Because I want to know why you didn`t see that little

piece of cartilage broken the first time around or not broken the first time around. And I also want to know all about the notion for the lay guy,

like me, I`m with you. It sounds crazy that somebody would do this to herself in that manner and make it.

WECHT: And we think -- we think, too, Ashleigh, that she was nude. Point that --

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: Yes. That whole part, too. And listen, everybody has a different, you know, thing but --

WECHT: Women do not commit suicide nude. Yes, thank you.

BANFIELD: That`s kind of where I`m at as well. But I`m out of time, but will you come back again because I do want to talk about all these things.

WECHT: Yes, with pleasure.

BANFIELD: This case is ongoing.

WECHT: My pleasure to be with you.

BANFIELD: And it will be interesting to see what happens. Dr. Wecht, thank you so much for that.

WECHT: My thanks. Thank you.

BANFIELD: My thanks to Miles Himmel as well.

Police say an outraged girlfriend went on a medieval binge on her boyfriend because that boyfriend was cheating. She found the Tinder app on his phone

and another girl`s hair in the shower.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DISPATCH: OK. Where is the knife?

EMILY JAVIER: It`s by him, I used a sword.

DISPATCH: You used a sword? OK.

JAVIER: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[19:35:05] BANFIELD: Yes, yes, yes. You heard right. She used a sword. To be more clear, a samurai sword.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:40:18] BANFIELD: She came out of the house covered in blood and the first thing she said as she stood there squinting into the police

highlights was he`s in there. Her hands were in the air but she wasn`t done talking. Through her tears, she sputtered I just stabbed him. Now,

as confessions go it doesn`t get much better than that unless of course they are repeated over and over because just moments before Emily Javier

delivered that bloody (INAUDIBLE) on the front steps, she had called the police to deliver confession number one.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DISPATCH: 911. How may I help you?

JAVIER: I just stabbed my boyfriend.

DISPATCH: What is the address there?

JAVIER: (BLEEP) Camas, Washington. I think he`s dying. I think he`s dying. You better hurry up.

DISPATCH: OK. Tell me -- tell me what happened. OK.

JAVIER: I stabbed him. (INAUDIBLE)

DISPATCH: OK, is he awake?

JAVIER: I think he`s dead. I think he`s dead. You need to hurry.

DISPATCH: What is your name?

JAVIER: Emily.

DISPATCH: OK, Emily, I need to get some help started. I`m splitting the call. Hold on just one --

JAVIER: I think he`s dead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Now, before you think Emily was defending herself in a fight for her life as too many women are forced to do, that is not what happened

here. At least according to Emily herself. No, she admitted that she was mad at her boyfriend for three different reasons. Because he downloaded

Tinder, because he had mysterious scratch marks on his back, and because she had found a red hair in the shower drain. So, naturally, she bought a

samurai sword.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DISPATCH: Where did you stab him?

JAVIER: (INAUDIBLE) in the bedroom.

DISPATCH: No, where on his body? Where on his body?

JAVIER: Everywhere. Everywhere.

DISPATCH: OK. Can you get a clean dry cloth or a towel and put it right on the wound?

JAVIER: No, I can`t go in there. (INAUDIBLE)

DISPATCH: OK. Emily, Emily, where is the knife right now? Are you able to go in the room? OK, Emily. Can you go in the room?

JAVIER: I can`t go in there.

DISPATCH: OK, who else -- Emily, who else is in the house?

JAVIER: Just me and him, and the dog but the dog is in the backyard.

DISPATCH: OK, where is the knife?

JAVIER: It`s by him. I used a sword.

DISPATCH: You used a sword? OK.

JAVIER: Yes. Please hurry.

DISPATCH: OK. All right, Emily. If it`s possible for you to go in there to him, we may be able to help him if you can put --

JAVIER: (INAUDIBLE) There`s too much blood

DISPATCH: Put a --

JAVIER: There`s too much blood.

DISPATCH: OK. Are there any other weapons in the house, Emily? Any guns or other knives?

JAVIER: There`s two knives in the bedroom.

DISPATCH: Emily, they`re on their way as fast as they can. Is your door unlocked already? OK. Emily? How --

JAVIER: I can`t believe I did this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Well, now, Emily Javier is facing first-degree attempted murder because lucky for her, the guy she wanted to kill did not die. With me now

Shane Kavanaugh, Staff Writer for The Oregonian. And our thanks, Shane, to you guys for providing a copy of that unbelievable 911 call. She made one

of her appearances wearing a protective suicide smock. So clearly, she is in a lot of trouble mentally and legally. What triggered this episode?

SHANE KAVANAUGH, STAFF WRITER, THE OREGONIAN: Well, as we reported, and most of this account had come from Emily Javier first hand when she talked

to police after the incident. It appears that she grew extremely jealous and suspicious of her boyfriend after discovering a Tinder app on his

telephone, scratches on his back, and later, she tells police she found some red hair in the couple`s shower drain and as you may see, her hair is

actually dyed green. So --

BANFIELD: Wasn`t she angry that he was ignoring her that night when he came home from work as well?

KAVANAUGH: Right. You know, she told police that she had purchased a samurai sword about a week before and was thinking about attacking her

boyfriend with it and then he came home on a Friday night around 9:00 started ignoring her, she told police, and later on that evening she

attacked him with the samurai sword.

BANFIELD: So, apparently, she fixed the sword as well as a couple of knives to the side of the bed and then waited for him to go to sleep. And

by the way, we have connected with that poor victim, Alex Lovell, via Facebook and he was too exhausted to join us. But give me a moment, Shane,

as I want to read what he sent to us.

He said, "I didn`t get much sleep last night because my left hand had three fingers which were almost cut off. I`m struggling today just trying to

sneak in as much sleep as possible. I`m 100 percent, both physically and mentally. Obviously, I got some gnarly injuries. One on each limb but I

could have lost all four limbs and I would still be happy as a clam right now.

[19:45:03] The feeling I had when I won the fight with my bear hands just absolutely the best feeling. I played all the sports one big games landed

some decent tricks on my snowboard, et cetera, this was better. I`ve kept my friends in the loop with my recovery on Facebook. Lots of

misinformation going around. I just want to make sure my closest peeps are taken care of first, then, it can spread through the word of mouth or

people creeping on my page, et cetera. My dog is the real hero in this situation because he was there in the backyard barking, letting her know

what`s up. My feelings towards Emily are not really important. She did what she did for whatever reason and it was nutty that I was able to Wing

Chun my way to survival. Big ups to Ip Man."

I`m not sure what that means, but clearly he`s quite happy he`s OK. "I can`t say I saw this coming but when I woke -- but when she woke me up on

accident, I knew what was going on and it made sense. I have prepared my whole life for something like this and I was just so proud of myself for

beating this samurai wannabe crazy lady with hate in her heart." And he sent us these photos as well. Alex, thank you for your very extensive

comment and we are wishing you a speedy recovery.

Caroline Polisi is a defense attorney, you got your witness, he`s alive and he is clearly willing to speak.

CAROLINE POLISI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes.

BANFIELD: You got your confession number one, you got your confession number two. She laid it all out on the line and then pleads not guilty.

How`s that going to go?

POLISI: I think what`s so interesting about this case is that first (INAUDIBLE) if you listen to that 911 call, it sounds like a textbook heat

of the passion of killing. But then, when you find out more and more details about the case, you see that she planned this with chilling detail

and chilling precision and accuracy over the course of the week leading up to it. So, there really is no good defense in terms of wanting them to

charge a second degree, not premeditated charges.

BANFIELD: (INAUDIBLE) some spaghetti real quickly, 10 seconds on the wall. What would you choose as the defense attorney?

POLISI: Yes, I mean, you could say that it was a very long period during which she was getting agitated that, you know, she was -- you could say it

was a sort of a -- an extended heat of the passion, sort of -- from the first time that she found out, oh, he got on Tinder and then she finds the

hair, it`s like --

(CROSSTALK)

POLISI: -- little by little, more and more -- I know. I know. I mean that --

BANFIELD: Sorry.

POLISI: That would be a kind of a difficult argument to speak --

BANFIELD: Yes.

POLISI: But you could --

BANFIELD: I think she`s toast.

POLISI: She is toast.

BANFIELD: She has toasted herself. My God. Samurai sword and all. Caroline, thank you. Shane Kavanaugh, thank you as well. And Alex Lovell,

please get well soon.

We`re learning some more information tonight about why a Texas doctor allegedly gunned down this young couple right in front of their children as

they were helping his mom. And police say it is a crazy tale of mobsters and suspicion of drug abuse. Just wait till you hear it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:50:00] BANFIELD: It seemed he had no reason to do it, to shoot his neighbors dead from the upstairs balcony while they were simply visiting

his property to help his mom move some furniture. And on top of that, to shoot them right in front of their own children. But tonight, to say that

-- tonight, the police say that indeed he did, he did have a reason, though it`s a little bit of a head scratcher to say the least. His name is Robert

Fidel. And he`s telling the police a pretty strange tale, suggesting that those neighbors were Russian mob members who`d come to murder his mother

because he was developing a conspiracy about Jewish people. And said all - - said all of this only after police were asked to take down the digital clock on the wall because he simply could not speak around anything

connected to the radio or the internet.

This man was once a respected small town doctor, who police say now was just high as a kite on meth or prescription drugs. And if that`s true,

that abuse may have just cost a gorgeous young couple their lives, and three young children, their parents. So, with all those drugs and all that

crazy talk, could Dr. Fidel actually mount an insanity defense?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think he`s trying to get away with murder.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Salt and wound, and I don`t think -- I think he won`t get away with it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Caroline Polisi, will he? Could he?

POLISI: No. No, absolutely not. There is no legal defense not guilty by reason of methamphetamine, OK? That just does not play any part in a not

guilty by reason of insanity defense. He would have to have a long period in his history showing a systematic --

BANFIELD: Mental illness.

POLISI: -- mental illness. Exactly.

BANFIELD: And then he`d have to prove he didn`t know right from wrong, et cetera, et cetera. Even then, it`s hard to win. Horrible story but at

least we know the background. Thank you, Caroline, don`t go anywhere.

When Charles Manson died, did you ever imagine that there`d be a big, long line of people waiting to claim his body? But there was. "ONE MORE THING"

straight ahead.

[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: "ONE MORE THING" for you tonight, and it is all about what to do with the body of that sadistic and iconic murderer, Charles Manson? He

died in prison four months ago. And believe it or not, there was actually a fight over who would get custody of his remains. Four different parties

actually went to the court to try to get their hands on that body. Creepy as it is, a California judge decided the cult leader would go to his

grandson. And the grandson has said he plans a cremation. And that`s the end of Manson. Thank God. Thanks for watching, everyone. I`m Ashleigh

Banfield. See you back here tomorrow night 6:00 p.m. Eastern for CRIME & JUSTICE. "DEATH ROW STORIES" starts right now.

END