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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield

Man Shoots Officer Escorting Him Out Of BMW Dealership; Courtroom Outburst; Boy Vanishes; Mom Falls From Cliff, Family Says It`s Murder. Aired 6-8p ET

Aired March 20, 2018 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[18:00:00] (JOINED IN PROGRESS)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- a giant companies, and that you at the very least consider going in to your privacy settings and turning them up as high as

they can go.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, now, I`m paranoid. Thanks, I`m freaked out. All right. There we go. That`s all for us, Crime and Justice with Ashleigh

Banfield is up next.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HOST, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE: Good evening everyone I`m Ashleigh Banfield, welcome to Crime and Justice.

Being escorted out of an establishment usually means the end of trouble especially when the police are the ones doing the escorting, but in Ohio at

a fancy BMW dealership, that is exactly when all hell broke loose.

The staff called for help after a man was being unruly and refused to leave. When the police showed up to make him leave, he pulled out a gun

and he wasn`t bluffing. The bullets started to fly at close range even after one of the officers wrestled him to the ground. Both of those cops

ended up being shot and so is the suspect. And the whole thing was caught on the police dash cam.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(GUNFIRES)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Radio, two officers shot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shoot me (inaudible).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All officers respond to Classic BMW. All officers respond to Classic BMW.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Timothy Schmidt just pled guilty to shooting those officers in the leg and in the torso and he had his own serious injuries, too. Only he

was reportedly taken to jail after he was released from the hospital. And he is the only one facing 45 years behind bars now. For his part he was

saying, quote, "He was heavily medicated that day."

Another Ohio outburst that was captured on camera as a suspected criminal was being escorted out of a Cleveland courtroom, but this man was being

yelled at by the father of a 4-year-old girl he may have killed.

Michael Garrett reportedly spent months trying to get emergency custody of his daughter, but that did not happen in time. Anya Day Garrett was found

unresponsive last week, looking malnourish with apparent cuts, bruises and even burn marks. Her mother initially told police that she`d gotten a

stomach bug and that she`d fallen, but police say that mother and the stepfather intentionally killed her.

According to local reports, now they are both charged with aggravated murder. And though they are pleading not guilty, Anya`s dad let his own

opinion out in the courtroom.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You killed my (BEEP) daughter. Oh. Oh, man. You killed my baby.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: According to local reports, children in family services investigated Anya`s home several times and another visit was actually on

the docket, but that visit was scheduled for the day after Anya was found dead. Now, her father reportedly wants that organization investigated

itself.

Police in Austin are investigating yet another package containing yet another explosive device. Police say the person who sent it is behind a

second box that exploded this morning at a FedEx Center near San Antonio.

And though it was apparently intended for a mail delivery, an office -- a mail delivery office in the Austin area, it knocked a worker off of her

feet and gave her a concussion. She is now the fifth person injured by explosive deliveries this month.

With other blasts killing two people and two men still in the hospital recovering from a bomb that detonated on the side of an Austin area street

on Sunday. So, if you`re keeping track, two more packages in the last 24 hours and an investigation is drilling down.

Tonight, an Ohio family is missing their teenage boy. His name is 14-year- old Jacob Caldwell. He`s got blonde hair, blue eyes, he is 5`2" and a 100 pounds. At least, that was his description the last time anyone saw him,

because teenage boys grow fast. And Jacob has been missing for seven months now.

Somehow Jacob isn`t even the start of this family`s tragic story, because just six days before Jacob suddenly vanished, Jacob`s dad was shot dead in

broad daylight right before Jacob`s very eyes.

Robert Caldwell, that dad was killed in a parking lot and Jacob wasn`t the only witness. His two younger siblings saw the whole thing too. And now

half a year later their mother is the one charged in the murder along with her boyfriend.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN GLASSMAN, U.S. ATTORNEY: Under federal law, someone who aids and abets another person in committing a crime is just as guilty and is subject

to the same punishment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Police say that Tanya Caldwell was not exactly helpful in the search for that son, Jacob. Though, if you talk to the dead father`s side

of the family, it was a custody battle that drove her to help kill her ex. Tanya`s boyfriend, Sterling Robert, is also charged with stocking Robert on

his cell phone for weeks before executing him right in front of those three kids.

And here`s the other part, you can hear in a chilling 911 call that was actually placed a full two weeks before Robert was gunned down, that Robert

may actually have known what was coming.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 911 what`s your emergency?

ROBERT CALDWELL, MURDERED: Yes, I got a guy chasing me over here on Sunny and Dave Town. He just tried to hurt me, I`m assuming he tried to kill me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know who it is?

R. CALDWELL: Yes, I do. His name is Sterling Roberts, he is my ex-wife`s boyfriend and they just lost full custody of all our kids.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: And that was two weeks before he died. With me now, Kelly May, reporter for CNN affiliate at the WKEF. Kelly, seven months from the time

that Robert is gunned down in broad daylight in front of three of his kids, until his ex-wife and her boyfriend, and some others, we`ll get into in a

moment, are arrested in connection with this federal crime involving murder. Why such a long investigation when there were three little

witnesses?

KELLY MAY, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WKEF: Well, Ashleigh, at the time of his actual murder back in August, we were given very little information

about the details surrounding the murder until these explosive indictments by the grand jury, just a couple works ago.

We`re still learning a whole lot about this case as it develops so we`re not sure exactly why this is taking so long, but in the meantime, Jacob, of

course, as you mentioned is still missing.

BANFIELD: So, understanding that Tanya Caldwell, you know, Robert`s ex- wife was in this custody battle for these three little kids, Robert ends up dead and 7 months later, Tanya is arrested, Tanya`s boyfriend, Sterling

Robert, and four others. Who are the four others and what`s the alleged role did they play in all of this?

MAY: Well Tanya`s mother and her stepfather Chandra Harmond (ph) and James Harmond (ph), they were also arrested for aiding and abetting. The FBI

told us that Chandra actually tried to intimidate a witness back in November. The two of them are actually out on bond right now. And then

Sterling Roberts, brother and his half-brothers Chant Sticken and Christopher Roberts (ph), they were also arrested for aiding and abetting.

So these familiar relationships that the FBI`s alleging play a role in this bigger picture.

BANFIELD: So, now we have the -- I mean, there`s so many different avenues in this -- in this crime. There`s the murder and there`s the strange

disappearance of the young boy, the 14-year-old, which I can`t really get my -- I can`t really get my head around this. He watched his father die,

his two little siblings are with him.

Seven months pass before his mother is arrested, but he is been gone since six days after that murder. I want to just play, if I can, something from

the FBI press conference, because they`re offering $15,000 now, if anybody knows where the -- where this boy is. And I will get into, why the FBI in

a moment. But here they are talking about the effort to find him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANGELA BYERS, SPECIAL AGENT, FBI: The FBI is announcing $15,000 reward for information leading to the recovery of Jacob Lee Caldwell and the arrest

and conviction of anyone involved in his disappearance.

Jacob is a 14-year-old boy who witnessed his father`s murder last August. Due to these circumstances he could be in danger. Jacob has not been seen

since August 21st, 2017 shortly after his father`s death. Jacob may not be in Ohio, so we want this message to spread beyond our region.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Kelly, it`s been seven months, you know, since Jacob vanished. She is 14, he can`t really be on his own. Was his mother looking after him

during those seven months? Where are the other two children? And why aren`t they part of that -- you know, this avenue of the story? And have

there been any leads on this?

[18:10:00] MAY: Well, the other two children are in the care of another family member legally after all of this happened and the custody battle was

won by Robert. We do know that Jacob was actually last seen at least according to local police here at a Walmart in our area about a month after

he went missing.

And you just heard the FBI say, they`re not sure exactly the details surrounding his disappearance. And family we talked to say, they think the

other side of the family might actually know where he is, so, they`re wanting them to cooperate with local police.

BANFIELD: If you would stand by Kelly. I want to bring in Candice Caldwell, she is Robert Caldwell`s widow and Jacob`s stepmother.

And just for the sake of our audience Candice, the way this work Robert was married to Tanya, they split. You were then Robert`s wife at the time that

he was murdered. You also have children together with Robert, so this is extraordinary in terms of your perspective, because you`re stepson is

missing somewhere and you`re husband is a murder victim.

Are you getting any information from the police about both of these criminal issues that the missing child and of course the murder case?

CANDICE CALDWELL, STEPMOTHER OF JACOB CALDWELL: Well, yes, I mean, I`m in contact with the law enforcement. I`ve been in contact with them about

Jacob and where he might be. We`re not just sure, you know we have no idea. And just like you guys just mentioned, his maternal side of the

family, they`re unwilling to cooperate with the police at all. They wouldn`t talk to them or anything, so they`re just showing no -- they`re

not helping at all.

BANFIELD: Well that leads me in the direction of the next question, because, you know, the natural curiosity would lead to the question of was

Jacob a run away, because of the torment that had been going on in his life, he just witnessed his father being murdered or was he abducted?

And if that is the case, who would he have been abducted by, because offensively his mom wasn`t arrested until just recently. So, it`s been

seven months where he could have been with his mom. What`s your theory on what`s happened to Jacob?

C. CALDWELL: You know, I mean he could be anywhere. He -- this isn`t the first time he`s ran away. In the past when he has ran away, he is always

ended up with his mother`s family somewhere. You know, so I think it speaks volumes that they`re not willing to talk to the police and they`re

not willing to cooperate at all in helping find him.

BANFIELD: Can you tell me about the day that Robert was murdered in that parking lot, what were the moments leading up to that? Because as I

understand that you know, he had those children in the car with them, so just walk me through what actually happened.

C. CALDWELL: He was at -- they were at a council meeting, you know, they took them to counseling and they were walking out of counselling. I mean,

that is it.

BANFIELD: They were literally walking out of a counseling session, dad and three little kids?

C. CALDWELL: Yes.

BANFIELD: And as I understand it, correct me if I`m wrong, Candice, was it Jacob the 14-year-old boy who called 911?

C. CALDWELL: No. Robert`s oldest is the one actually, he ran over to a restaurant and that`s when he called 911.

BANFIELD: Who is that that called 911, you said, Robert`s oldest, there was another child present?

C. CALDWELL: There was three, Bobby`s three kids also.

BANFIELD: So, you`re going to have to help me out, I thought that he had Jacob and two younger siblings, but you were saying there is someone who is

older, who called 911?

C. CALDWELL: Jacob`s the middle.

BANFIELD: Thank you for that. So the older sibling called 911. And where are those two other siblings right now and how old are they in relation to

Jacob?

C. CALDWELL: The oldest is 15 and the youngest is 9 and they`re with my husband`s mom (inaudible).

BANFIELD: So, is it your theory that Tanya, who`s now arrested on this federal death penalty crime of murdering your husband, her ex-husband,

you`re now a widow, but this was your husband, is it your theory that her family is somehow involved with the disappearance of Jacob? And if that is

your theory, why would it only will Jacob and not the other two?

C. CALDWELL: I believe there`s somebody on that side of family knows where he is at, yes, absolutely. And I believe that it`s just Jacob at this

point, because he was the only one they could get ahold of.

BANFIELD: So, you believe it would be only a matter of time maybe before the other two kids disappear?

C. CALDWELL: I have no doubt that are going to try to get them, but I just think there`s no way for that.

BANFIELD: So Candice, usually the way it works, is if the child goes missing, family members are questioned first and that they would go to

Tawny`s side of family and ask all of those extended family members, if they know where Jacob is and then they would ask neighbors living nearby if

they had seen Jacob. Do you think the police have done all of that important Gungho (ph) footwork, investigative work?

C. CALDWELL: Yes, they did. They went and they called that side of the family, they`ve knock on the doors, they won`t answer. And if they do they

say you have to speak to my lawyer.

BANFIELD: So they are not answering questions and so far none of the neighbors of these extended family members have spotted a sighting of

Jacob, correct?

C. CALDWELL: Right.

BANFIELD: Well, you know, I do hope the best for you and your family in finding Jacob Caldwell. And our thoughts -- our hearts go out to you for

what you have to endure with the loss of your husband, Robert as well and the upcoming trial -- that -- undoubtedly would be very difficult for you.

Candice, thank you, thank you for being with us tonight.

C. CALDWELL: Thank you.

BANFIELD: All right. Thanks as well to Kelly May, reporting from WKEF. Tonight there are more questions for the answer after a -- I think you can

only describe it as a jaw dropping interview with the boyfriend of a woman who somehow went off a cliff, while they were hiking together. We`re going

to ask Steven Nickel`s attorney what his client was thinking when he sat down to describe the day the love of his life Rhonda died. You can also

now listen to our show anytime, you can download or podcast on Apple Podcast, IHeartRadio, Stitcher, TuneIn or wherever you get your podcasts

for your "Crime and Justice" news.

[18:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: For years now the question has been, did she fall or was she pushed. The stunning aspiring model who fell to her death on a rainy day

along Oregon`s Eagle Creek trail. Rhonda Casto had been hiking with her boyfriend, a man ten years her senior who was put behind bars for her

death. According to Rhonda`s family, he was after her million dollar life insurance policy, but that is something he flat-out denied in a new

interview, the CBS`s "48 Hours."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHEN WAGNER NICHOLS, RHONDA`S BOYFRIEND: I had nothing to do with Rhonda Casto`s death.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn`t push her?

NICHOLS: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, you`re telling us, you`re completely innocent of these charges?

NICHOLS: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Guilty or not, Stephen Nichols spent nearly two years in jail waiting for a trial that would never come, because Nichols was offered a

plea deal and he got out with time served. That for pleading guilty to negligent homicide and coercion. And now that he is out, he is suggesting

an alternate story to CBS`s "48 hours," not that Rhonda fell, not that Rhonda was pushed, but the whole thing happened on purpose.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NICHOLS: Starting pouring down rain and thunder came, and so she started walking down, right. At a full sprint, running down the trail.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what unfolded before your eyes?

NICHOLS: I don`t know how far down it was, but she went off the trail.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A man hiking with Rhonda Casto, is that she fell off a cliff last night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she take a step and her feet went off in front of her? Did she tumble forward, what did you see?

NICHOLS: Next question.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I want to bring in the attorney for Stephen Nichols, and his name is Mike Arnold and he joins me live now. Mike, thanks for being on

the show. When I see an interview that -- that has that moment in it, next question, I immediately get Spidey senses that tingle. And the first

question I would have for you, is why on earth is he talking at all?

MIKE ARNOLD, ATTORNEY FOR STEPHEN NICHOLS: Well, I can`t answer that except to say that it`s probably a slightly therapeutic for him to get all

this fears off his chest. I mean, he was there, only he and Rhonda, whose now passed know exactly what happened in terms of conversations beforehand.

But really the only way to know exactly what happened is by looking at the physical evidence. So, as far as what eyewitnesses say, I discount that.

All I care about is the signs and the facts.

BANFIELD: So, we saw this clip a moment ago of Rhonda bouncing this adorable baby, this is the child of between Rhonda and Stephen. Does

Stephen have custody of that child, now that he is been released?

ARNOLD: I don`t really feel comfortable talking about her except to say if she ever gets old enough to watch any of this television coverage that she

needs to realize her father loves her very much. And through the entire case all he ever asked me, whenever the decision`s to be made is, how does

this help me in the custody case. He was willing to fall on the sword in order to best position himself to get back with his daughter.

BANFIELD: So you think the CBS "48 Hours" interview is part of that effort to get custody back of this child?

ARNOLD: I think the "48 Hours" interview was always planned. They had done the first one in 2016 and they did this follow-up one after the case

was settled. So, he goes far an opportunity for him to kind of talk about what was on his mind and for better or worse that is what he had to say.

BANFIELD: So, there`s some very strange stuff in it, I mean, I`m sure I don`t have to tell you. You`ve been following this case obviously, you

know integrally involved with it for so many years, but there`s this one moment I want to play for our audience where Steven talks about what Rhonda

told him the day that she died, the day she went over that cliff. And it all has to do with what Stephen says was a weird dream that Rhonda

purportedly had. Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NICHOLS: We woke up early, she opened the drapes and we saw it`s a beautiful day, OK, so we are going to go hiking. One of the thing she

asked me on the drive over, she said, if anything ever happens to me, do you promise to watch our daughter and take care of her. And I go what are

you talking about? She goes, I have dreams all the time that I am dead before 25.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So, that -- that is kind of weird, Mike and I -- you know, the family, I think you can understand why they would feel, and they`ve said

that they feel that he got away with murder. And then they see these odd clips. You can imagine that this doesn`t make them feel any better about

just two years served, right?

ARNOLD: Well, I mean, you know, feelings are one thing and facts and evidence are something else. When I take a case, you know, people always

have lots to say, but the first thing I look at is what do the actual facts, the physical evidence, what do they say? And the one thing that can

never be denied, is Newton`s second law, physics, the loss of angle and momentum, accidents reconstructs in and science is what dictated this case.

We offered a criminally negligent homicide offer back in August of 2015, the prosecutor laughed at us, we offered it again in 2017. And by then,

there beaten, bruise and battered from all of our court appearances and they finally act we ask. I mean, the facts were on our side, the innuendo

conjecture and gossip was on their side. Luckily, facts typically won the day, except on in a 45-minute television shows.

BANFIELD: OK. So let`s talk facts. Because you`re right, when it comes down to, you know criminal prosecution is all about the evidence, it is not

about what happens on a show like this. And so to that end, the correspondent, Peter Van Sant with "48 Hours" asked about this issue, of

was it a jump or was it a fall. They wanted to get into the exact facts. Given that he is already served the time, he`s been release, he should be

able to speak very freely, and yet, if you look at this moment, he seem to be very evasive. Again, the question was fairly simple, was this a jump or

a fall. And listen to how this went.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She tumble forward, what did you see?

NICHOLS: Next question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was it a large skid mark on the path where she had slipped and went off?

NICHOLS: No, just a footprint.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just a footprint?

NICHOLS: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Steve look at me. What you`re saying is, she jumped. She was going down at almost a run pace, there`s a single footprint you`re

telling me at the edge of the cliff and she goes over, that is a jump.

NICHOLS: I laid everything out there, people can reach whatever conclusion they want.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So, Mike that was an attempt just to get the raw facts of what happened from a sensibly the only witnesses that would be your client. Why

was it so hard for him to actually just say what was the facts were?

ARNOLD: Yes, the raw facts of what happened show that -- it was -- it is possible that she jumped or was pushed, if the laws of physics somehow

don`t apply -- it would create which my excerpts believe that they did. So, to get pushed or jump off that portion of the creek, of the trail, she

would have moved away from the edge of the cliff rather than going straight down. We were able to prove through the accident reconstruction that there

was a ledge about 30 feet below the edge of the cliff. There was a skid mark about the width -- the length of her shoe.

We have an witness that said that there was water cascading over at that particular point on the trail. A witness that I like the viewers to know

that the sheriff`s office ignored on the day of the accident. We had to track him down through publicity in this case.

He said the only way around it was to skirt it, walk around the edge of the trail, and she had injuries that were sustained consistent with a first

fall 20 to 30 feet to the ledge and then straight down the rest of the way to the bottom.

If someone were pushed or jumped, they wouldn`t have hit that first ledge unless, as I mentioned before, the physics of the world don`t apply

(INAUDIBLE) just like justice doesn`t.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, PRIMETIME JUSTICE SHOW HOST, HLN: So your -- your explanations make perfect sense as a good defense attorney would. And then

your client comes in --

ARNOLD: No, like science would.

BANFIELD: OK. But like I said, in our conversation, you`re making perfect sense. And then your client comes in and does an interview with CBS`s "48

Hours" and sort of ruins all of that with what he`s saying.

And I mean that, there is this moment where he`s asked, if he went down to the bottom, below that cliff where she was lying and whether he actually

put her out of her misery, which would be murder in the statutes all across the land, and this was how that moment played out with the correspondent

Peter Van Sant. Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETER VAN SANT, REPORTER AND CORRESPONDENT: Did you put Rhonda out of misery that day?

STEPHEN NICHOLS, BOYFRIEND OF RHONDA CASTO: Let me ask you, if you shoot your war buddy because you see how much pain he`s in, is that murder?

VAN SANT: What do you say?

NICHOLS: I say no, of course not. So, to me that`s a justified -- I don`t want homicide, technically it is homicide, but it`s justified at that

point. You are putting someone out of their misery that essentially has zero chance of survival.

VAN SANT: Is that what you did?

NICHOLS: Of course that`s not what I`m saying, I`m just saying --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Mike, that`s weird. Did he or didn`t he do what he just explained? He thinks it would be OK. Did he end her life at the bottom of

the cliff?

ARNOLD: Yes, impossible for that to happen given the forensic and physical evidence. There`s just no way. And the only way --

BANFIELD: Why would he say that then? Why would he even go there? Why wouldn`t he say this is absurd, of course I didn`t do this. He`s talking

about (INAUDIBLE) that will be the legitimate thing to do and, you know, it`s all evasive and weird, why would he talk like this?

ARNOLD: You know, I can`t speak for the motivates in his head and what he has to say other than the fact that I don`t trust anything coming from

someone that wen through a traumatic event, suffered hypothermia from crossing a raging creek at nearly flood level and sitting in his car

shivering.

Actually an expert witness says that we are prepared to testify at trial that human brain doesn`t record events accurately when the brain is chilled

at certain degree of temperature which we were able to prove due to the --

BANFIELD: I get you, but I mean, listen, I`ve been to war, I had a gun held to my head by a bunch of Afghans and you can trust what I`m saying,

you know, seven, eight, nine years later, so I think that`s a bit weird.

I do actually want to bring in if I can, attorney Ron Bamieh. He joins me from Los Angeles. He is a defense attorney. One quick question for you,

this is a federal park in some weird way. I mean, it`s at Columbia River Gorge, it`s called the National Scenic Area, it`s on federal websites, et

cetera.

Does that mean that the feds could ever come in, Ron, and charge him with murder? Because it wouldn`t be double jeopardy defense, even though he`s

been adjudicated in this case in state court. What`s the status there?

RON BAMIEH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I don`t think the federal government could prosecute him for murder. Even though it is a federal park, it isn`t

in the state of Oregon. Oregon assumed jurisdiction over the case.

I don`t think a federal court would be able to do so, even though it is theoretically not double jeopardy. In fact, federal court will shy away

from doing such things when a state court has already adjudicated the case.

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: It`s rare. I will give you that, Ron. It`s rare but I have seen it happen before.

BAMIEH: It happens in extreme circumstances and usually --

BANFIELD: Extreme. Right. Steven himself -- Nichols has sort of left us all out there with even additional mystery doing these interviews with "48

Hours." Great show by the way and really great story, great interview as well. My thanks to Mike Arnold, Stephen`s attorney, for being here. And

also Ron Bamieh, I`m going to ask you to stick on, if you will, stay with me.

There is an outrage tonight as attorneys are trying to throw out bombshell recordings that are said to be of a Florida millionaire who was accused of

torturing and sexually assaulting a young family member.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[18:35:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): It was never anything other than chloroform. She was always asleep. She has no idea what was going on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So that`s pretty awful. But will a jury ever hear that?

[18:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Seventy-one-year-old Louis Bianculli is accused of sickening crimes. But it was a medical necessity that got him out of jail on house

arrest. But he was ordered not to leave the house. So, this looks like a pretty nice way to spend your house arrest, huh, check that out. Especially

when you`re a millionaire real estate developer and when your house is a waterfront mansion, complete with a fishing hole.

This is a place that he could still be enjoying fishing and sipping what looks like coffee and watering the plans, yapping it up on his cell phone,

all while he is supposed to be awaiting knee surgery inside the mansion, not outside.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Did you exaggerate your knee injury so that you could get out of jail, sir? Where is your cane? You used a cane in

court but you`re not using a cane today, why is that?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I think because he was using the fishing pole as a cane, and then was seen doing these interesting leg exercises outside. So here is the

way this case stands now. Bianculli has had his surgery. It`s done. It`s finished now.

So he should milk every single moment of his house arrest in that beautiful mansion because he could have been behind bars while he awaits a trial for

some horrifying crime.

He`s accused of sexually assaulting a young family member for years, starting from the time that she was just 12. And by the way, when we say

sexually assaulting, it goes way beyond that. Way beyond it.

The court say -- the documents at least, say that he drugged that girl making her chloroform, maing her unconscious, putting a bag over her head

until she passed out and then performing quote, surgeries on her with needles. Shattered victim who now was said to have heart problems and

severe fear of knives.

And Bianculli may not even have been caught had it not been for some really awful audio recordings like this one that is said to be of Louis Bianculli

that police say his own wife secretly captured.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): It was never anything other than chloroform. She was always asleep. She has no idea what was going on. How

could I be such a (beep) sleazy piece of (beep) to do that? What the (beep) is wrong with me?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: With me now, "Inside Edition" chief investigative correspondent, Lisa Guerrero. Lisa, I should note to our audience that was you in the boat

spotting him basically being knotty on house arrest, fishing and doing things that he clearly was not supposed to be doing and not using the cane

that he had showed everyone he needed so badly.

Instead when you spotted him and he had to turn back around, he decided to use the fishing pole as the cane, but he didn`t need it when he was on his

way out to fish in the canal.

More importantly though, Lisa, the audio recordings that we are hearing now are just spine tingling when you think of how severe these crimes are. I

kind of sugar-coated it. There`s more to what he did to that family member. What exactly is in the docks?

LISA GUERRERO, CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT, INSIDE EDITION: You`re right, Ashleigh. What Mr. Bianculli is accused of doing is reprehensible.

For years, starting at the time when his stepdaughter was 12 years old, he covered her mouth with chloroform, knocked her out, sexually assaulted her,

according to documents, and performed surgeries on her where he would take needles and suck fat from different parts of her body and put that fat back

into her breasts.

Some really reprehensible things. And I have to tell you that in my investigation on Louis Bianculli last year, we found other victims that

claim several similar things, including a neighbor who said that he started chloroforming her and assaulting her when she was 10 years old.

And other victims have come forward as well. So this man has been doing these types of things for about five decades, according to these victims.

BANFIELD: So, Lisa, did they go to the police? Are there any possibility for charges to be leveled for those additional allegations?

GUERRERO: Yes. And in fact, the victim that we spoke to, Nancy Olson, told me last year that she later when she became an adult went to therapy and

that`s when all of this information came out. She was willing to move forward and talk to law enforcement about it. So, we`ll see if that ever

comes to fruition for her.

[18:44:55] In the meantime, in this case, one of the really disturbing parts of it is, you know, you saw him out there living this life of luxury,

fishing off his dock, walking around his pool and moving furniture and reading books and drinking coffee.

Believe it or not, since then, the terms of his house arrest had become even more loose, meaning now not only is he at home, he`s actually allowed

to leave home for four hours a day. He`s allowed to go and do errands. He can go shopping. He can look after his other real estate properties. He

owns about 20 properties in Fort Lauderdale area. And he`s even allowed to maintain his boat.

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: There are so many questions I have about that, but I`m just going to leave that to the process because that`s just it, right? It`s not

as though he is, you know, he is not running from the law, the law is allowing this and its maddening.

But what also may be more maddening are those audio tapes. The audio tapes. Let me play it again real quickly, this mash-up of some of the things he

said. Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): It was never anything other than chloroform. She was always asleep. She has no idea what was going on. How

could I be such a (beep) sleazy piece of (beep) to do that? What the (beep) is wrong with me?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Lisa, why are these tapes in jeopardy? Why wouldn`t they be sort of the star feature of a trial against him?

GUERRERO: You think they would be, right? Here`s what his attorneys are saying, that there is a chain of custody issue and that those tapes could

have been tampered with. Now the detectives on the case say that those tapes have been locked up. They have been safe. Nobody has tampered at all

with the tapes. But that`s what his lawyers are alleging, that it is a chain of custody issue.

BANFIELD: Wow.

GUERRERO: They want them thrown out.

(LAUGHTER)

BANFIELD: See, that happens. Lisa, stick around. I want to talk more about how (INAUDIBLE) about Louis Bianculli`s house arrest deal in the first

place and where we go from here?

[18:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Louis Bianculli allegedly assaulted a young family member from the time she was just 12. And believe it or not, that assault included

alleged sexual surgeries. I want to bring in, if I can, private investigator Robert Crispin and defense attorney Ron Bamieh.

Robert, as a private investigator involved in this case, do you know anything more about the tapes? Like, what else is on the tapes? Because all

we`ve been hearing so far is this. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): It was never anything other than chloroform. She was always asleep. She has no idea what was going on. How

could I be such a (beep) sleazy piece of (beep) to do that? What the (beep) is wrong with me?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Robert, it seems really damning. Is there more?

ROBERT CRISPIN, CEO, CRISPIN SPECIAL INVESTIGATIONS, INC. (via telephone): (INAUDIBLE) any of those tapes. I only hear what`s been obviously released

to you, guys. So I don`t have firsthand knowledge of what else is on there. But I can tell you that those tapes are priceless and --

BANFIELD: Yes. Priceless. But they seem to have been like maybe, if you believe the challenge to the tapes going into court, it seems that the

chain of custody may have been altered in some way, do you know anything about that?

CRISPIN (via telephone): I don`t know anything about the tapes being altered or the chain of custody being altered. I will tell you that law

enforcement has strict guidelines and law enforcement carries those standards utmost, up-front, and you know, this all comes down to the

prosecutor and the defense, you know, fighting it out. And who`s going to believe who?

BANFIELD: I cannot wait to hear more of them, if they`re going to be part of the trial. It`s incredible to hear that kind of a -- it really sounds

like a confession. That brings me to Ron Bamieh. Ron, suppression of evidence and a motion to suppress tapes like this especially with an

allegation that a chain of custody was somehow impeded.

I think the suggestion is that a police officer had it locked up in his desk or had tapes locked up in his desk. Is that egregious enough to --

BAMIEH: No.

BANFIELD: -- meet the bar?

BAMIEH: That officer could have had those tapes in the back of his Buick on a family vacation. It doesn`t matter. The chain of custody goes to

weight, it doesn`t go to admissibility. The jury gets to decide whether they think the tapes are authentic or not. The jury will decide whether or

not the tapes are legitimate or not.

So if they have an argument, hey, look, these tapes have been tampered with, OK, put on your evidence about them being tampered with and then --

BANFIELD: So do you think we are going to hear them? Ron, do you think -- do you think those tapes will make it into trial?

BAMIEH: Oh, yes, no doubt.

BANFIELD: Wow.

BAMIEH: It`s not even a close call. You know, I`m in California, I`ll make that call for Florida right now.

BANFIELD: I don`t like his chances, if that`s the case. Hold that thought. My thanks to Ron Bamieh, Robert Crispin, and also Lisa Guerrero for

reporting on that story for us.

Straight ahead, we all need somebody to look up to. We all need somebody to inspire us. And so it turns out to our little friend. Check that little

gaze looking up at the big dog.

[18:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: One more thing for you tonight. It turns out that little kids are not the only ones who dream of growing up to be a police officer. Check

out 10-week-old Charlie. He`s a little baby chocolate lab and he clearly got the thrill of his life when he met one of San Jose`s finest. That`s K-9

Bravo.

[18:59:58] Bravo and his handler spotted the little guy and then invited him to sit in the back of the police car to see what it would be like if

you were a police K-9 when he grew up. And the picture is simply adorable. Like beyond adorable.

Next hour of CRIME & JUSTICE starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was found hanging from her boyfriend`s balcony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A girl hung herself.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Found gagged and naked.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is she still alive?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators insist it was suicide.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was no evidence of a struggle or sexual assault and there were no other significant injuries.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But someone else was home that day. And her family says he killed her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could be very hard for her to make herself go over that railing on her own volition.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tonight, we talk to her sister.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is pretty obvious she was murdered.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As the man accused of killing her says all he did was cut the body down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Had her in one arm and cut with the other.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A couple goes on a hike, but she ends up going off a cliff.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She just started bolting down, like at a full sprint, she went off the trail.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But did she fall or was she pushed?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She said that he`s either going to propose to me or kill me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now the man who did time for the killing --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The police never once asked me if it was a suicide.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- is saying maybe she fell on purpose.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She knew she wasn`t living past the age of 25.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He is accused of assaulting a young girl.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was always asleep. She has no idea what`s going on.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Operating on her with needles and chloroform.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was never anything other than chloroform.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now there might be tapes to prove it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How could I be such a (bleep)? How can I be such a sleazy piece of (bleep) to do that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But could those tapes be thrown out of court?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is fooling the court. It`s a scam.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And would that save the millionaire suspected of being a monster?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What the (bleep) is wrong with me?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: Good evening. I`m Ashleigh Banfield.

Welcome to the second hour of CRIME & JUSTICE.

Rebecca Zahau died a gruesome death, no matter how you look at it. She was found hanging from the balcony of her millionaire boyfriend`s mansion. She

was naked, bound, and gagged. The investigators looking at the case said it was suicide. Her family says she was killed.

And tonight for the very first time, we are hearing from the man they say killed her. The brother of Rebecca`s boyfriend, the only other person on

the property that summer morning, the man who called the police after he says he found her body.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, a girl hung herself at the guest house of -- it`s Ocean Boulevard across from the hotel. Same place you came and got the kid

yesterday.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, sir, what is the address?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not sure.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is she still alive?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: That man was Adam Shacknai. And he is on trial now, effectively a civil case. He is taking the stand and he is saying that he had nothing

to do with her death.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First question. Sir, did you ever do anything at any time to participate in the death of Rebecca Zahau?

ADAM SHACKNAI, DEFENDANT: Most certainly not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir, at any time on the evening of July 12th, 2011, or the early morning hours of July 13th, 2011, did you ever, at any time,

leave the guest house and go into the main residence?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, leading.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ll allow it.

SHACKNAI: I did not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir, on any time at the evening of July 12, 2011, or the early morning hours of July 13th, 2011, did you participate ever in any

act to harm or kill Rebecca Zahau?

SHACKNAI: Most certainly not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I know that sure looks like a criminal trial, but let`s be real clear, it is not. He has not been charged with anything. He is being

sued. There`s a big difference.

Rebecca`s family says that Adam Shacknai had reason to kill their loved one. And they say it`s because she was babysitting his nephew. And that

nephew took a fatal fall. But police say that`s the reason she actually may have committed suicide. That the guilt of the little boy`s injuries

simply just got to her.

The sheriff even ended up doing a demo to prove that she, herself, could have done this. She could have tied herself up. But Rebecca`s family saw

those percent knots as a sign that Adam Shacknai was the one when tied them. They said the knots were nautical and they pointed to his career,

because Adam Shacknai is a tug boat pilot.

Shacknai says all he ever did in all of this was cut that body down when he spotted Rebecca hanging there and already dead.

With me now, Miles Himmel, he is a reporter for KFMB AM 760.

Miles, it just gets more and more intriguing as more people take the stand and more of the story comes out. But I was fascinated by the 911 call.

Because the 911 call that Adam Shacknai meant ostensibly after he spotted Rebecca Zahau`s body hanging bound and gagged and naked, I imagine that it

would be a terrified voice, a flustered voice. And I wanted to hear how it played in court. So before I ask you a question about it, let`s actually

hear what it was like on that phone call.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

[19:06:00] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, no problem. And she`s thirty, last time you saw her was last night? OK, all right, OK, they are coming.

Lights and sirens, OK? Does she have any type of pulse when you brought her down?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does she have a what?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did she have a pulse when you brought -- when you cut her down?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, she`s got her fricking hands tied behind her back.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They were, OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jesus (bleep) --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, listen to me. The paramedics are coming, OK. You got her on the ground?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. I got her on the ground.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Was there anything in her mouth?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes,

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What was in her mouth?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some kind of gag in her mouth.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. You took it out?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: Miles, that sounds like somebody who is pretty traumatized by what he is seeing. It doesn`t necessarily sound like a murderer who is

faking it, although, listen, I have been mystified before by people`s demeanor in court. What did it seem like, his demeanor on the stand? What

did it seem like on court?

MILES HIMMEL, REPORTER FOR KFMB AM760: Yes, it was a wild day yesterday, Ashleigh. So here is how it started. Let me put you there. The Zahau

family attorney, Keith Grier, first question he said, I`m going to start with an easy one, Adam. Tell me your age. And he looked right back at him

and he said, they are all easy, and then he told him his age.

And he said, OK, here we go. We are off on this. And so, he was very confident. He was well rehearsed, you know. I mean, the Shacknai attorney

and their side had him very well-rehearsed and he knew what he was talking about throughout that. So there were no, you know, out of left field

questions, no answers that got him out. He was very well rehearsed and disciplined.

That 911 call, you know, the question that remains on the Zahau family side is was he performing CPR during it? Because if you listen, they had an

audio expert listen to it and say he always had the phone up to his mouth, which means you wouldn`t be giving CPR with your phone to the mouth, but

never once did he put that to the side. That`s a question that`s still remaining.

BANFIELD: I`m glad you mentioned that. In fact on within the stand, he talked about getting a table and placing a table under her hanging body and

getting up on the table and using a knife to cut down her body and then actually perform CPR.

So let`s play that, actually. And you can actually hear him grunting. But I think you are right. If you listen with two different kind of

perspectives, you might hear something different. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHACKNAI: I cut her down, I had her in one harm and cut with the other.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, so what are you doing now?

SHACKNAI: If I had to speculate, I would say, it`s probably the sound of me cutting her down and at some point jumping off the table with her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So it was a little tricky to hear it, but there`s definitely some of that, the grunting that they played, a little clip. And then said

to him on the stand, so what are you doing now? But are they really getting to that aspect of it, or are they getting more to the -- all the

forensics of it. Are they drilling him on all of the forensics of it?

HIMMEL: It`s a little of both, because, right, we have talked about it last week, that there`s no DNA. They have already done the DNA expert.

There is no DNA of Adam Shacknai on Rebecca, in the room, anywhere in this. So you go, OK. Well then he must not have been there. But you go, hold

on. There is no DNA when he says, he says by his own admission, he is cutting the rope down. He is performing CPR. I mean, anybody, you do that

and there would be DNA all over the place especially when you ran in and see a body hanging there. So that certainly been a focal point as well.

And then those knots that you talked about, those nautical knots, that was a big, big - I mean, they spent a couple hours on that yesterday, going

over his time, Keith Greer, the Zahau attorney as well as the Shacknai attorney.

BANFIELD: And again, to remind our viewers, the knots are critical here, because Adam Shacknai`s profession is tug boat pilot. Some say captain.

He says pilot. And he is the head of the tug boat and one would think you would know a lot about nautical knots if you work on a tug boat. And he`s

the head of the tug boat and one would think you would know a lot about nautical knots if you work on a tug boat. And he testified about how much

difficulty he had getting his hands under the ropes to get a pulse. And that he may have actually loosened the ropes when he did it. This after

saying that he was unaware of any of those specialized nautical knots that the family alleges that only a tug boat captain or somebody with that kind

of knowledge would know how to tie. Here he is. Listen to him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[19:10:27] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You tried to put your hands in, but the ropes were so tight, you couldn`t easily get your hands in to test her

pulse, correct?

SHACKNAI: That is correct.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So then you loosened the ropes around her wrists?

SHACKNAI: I didn`t really loosen the ropes, I just tried to sort of pry under them at the time, talking to the police. That is what I had. That

was my best description at the time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So, Miles, it`s critical, as well, to know what his behavior was after allegedly discovering the body. He went to the police station. He

gave an interview. He gave his fingerprints and had no lawyer. Was he able to really sort of hammer that down in front of the jury? Or were they

able to poke holes in his of his behavior after the fact?

HIMMEL: He has been pretty transparent in saying, hey, listen, I haven`t done anything wrong. I was with everybody, I went there, I answered all

the questions, I immediately called 911. So, like I say, he was pretty well rehearsed. I just want to go back to the knots there, Ashleigh, you

know.

That was a very interesting point, yesterday. Because he said, he even said that he tried to loosen them, because they were tight knots. And when

they had that FBI person come in and show, hey, look it, this is how Rebecca could have tied herself and then bound herself behind her back,

they were very loose. And she did it, but they were loose knots and said, hey, look it, you can make them loose like this. And so, he go, well, if

they are tight like that, you couldn`t do that. You couldn`t put them behind the back. They would have to be loose, because they would be behind

your back. So that was a very interesting point.

BANFIELD: Yes, I`m still not 100 percent sure she did this to herself. I`m not 100 percent sure Adam did it, either. I don`t know how much anyone

has ever pointing to anyone else. But given that this is a wrongful death suit against Adam and others, I`m sure we`re not going to hear much about

any other potential suspects.

But let me do this, if I can. Stand by, if you will, Miles. I want to bring in Rebecca Zahau`s sister, Mary. Mary Zahau-Loehner joins me now.

Mary, thanks so much for being here. I know this cannot be easy to not only go through day after day of the civil trial, but then to go on

television and talk about this case. I want to ask you if you -- if you can, how did you feel about that testimony, Adam`s testimony on the stand.

MARY ZAHAU-LEOHNER, REBECA ZAHAU`S SISTER: It was very frustrating for me sitting there, knowing that there are lies that they are telling on the

stand and I can`t object and I can`t interfere and say what I have seen and what I have heard. It is pretty obvious that he is detached, cold, and

calculated. They have rehearsed the answers that they have said for days. It`s pretty clear.

BANFIELD: So can I ask you a little bit about the possibility that maybe it was someone else. If it wasn`t suicide, and I know your family has said

she was just not in that state of mind and that she was not the kind of person that Rebecca was. What about the possibility of someone else? Has

that ever crossed your investigator`s radar?

ZAHAU-LEOHNER: No. Because in the universe of people, only Rebecca Zahau and Adam Shacknai was in that house.

BANFIELD: But the unusual part of that is that Adam`s DNA, Adam`s footprints are nowhere near that room that included the balcony, where your

sister was found hanging. So if his DNA wasn`t there, is it as plausible to suggest his missing DNA is as significant as to say another missing

perpetrator`s missing DNA?

ZAHAU-LEOHNER: Or it also could indicate that he wiped down the scene and he wore gloves?

BANFIELD: So then, the other question I have, and of course, I have to ask, because it`s a case, it is a civil case, the investigators have said

there were notes on your sister`s phone, essentially suggesting she was upset about her boyfriend`s older children, that they disrespected her,

that she was hated by his ex-wives, that she was unhappy because of these things. That she wasn`t sleeping a lot for the first time in her life,

that her mind was racing, and that quote "no amount of money was worth what I`m going through."

Were any of these kinds of notes a possible impetus for her to potentially take her own life?

ZAHAU-LEOHNER: Absolutely not. First of all, nobody knows when those notes were written. It`s estimated that it was probably written several

months, if not more, like six months or earlier than July 13th. And the other thing that I want everybody to know is that my sister writes down --

that`s her coping mechanism. She writes down a journal. She writes down her thoughts and her feelings.

Never in her history or in her past is there any indication of self-harm. The sheriff`s department did not even bother right to look into her past or

trying to find out if she had seen a therapist or if she has talked to anybody. And if she did, what was she telling these people? They did not

even try to find out who she really was. They wanted to look at this two piece of journal entries and said, there you go. She committed suicide.

[19:15:46] BANFIELD: Well, listen, Mary, I know that this is difficult. And I appreciate you speaking to us in such a candid manner, when you are

going through such a family tragedy. I`m very thankful to you. And I`m going to continue looking at this case. I`ll be fascinated to see the

outcome.

My great appreciation to you and also to Miles Himmel.

I do want to say the family of Rebecca Zahau has established a gofundme page to help out with the expenses of filing this civil case. And if you

would like to contribute, you can go to gofundme justice for Rebecca Zahau.

Tonight, there are more questions than answers after a jaw-dropping interview with the boyfriend of a woman who fell off a cliff while hiking.

We are going to ask Steven Nichols` attorney what his client was thinking when he sat down to describe the date Rhonda Casto died after he had

already served his prison sentence.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:21:44] BANFIELD: For years now, the question has been, did she fall or was she pushed? The stunning, aspiring model who fell to her death on a

rainy day along Oregon`s eagle creek trail.

Rhonda Casto has been hiking with her boyfriend, a man ten years her senior, who was put behind bars for her death. According to Rhonda`s

family, he was after her million-dollar life insurance policy. But that`s something he flat-out denies in a new interview with CBS` "48 Hours."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had nothing to do with Rhonda Casto`s death.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn`t push her?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is it? What is it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you are telling us you are completely innocent of these charges?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Guilty or not, Steven Nichols spent nearly two years in jail, waiting for a trial that would never come. Because Nichols was offered a

plea deal and he got out with time served. That for pleading guilty to negligent homicide and coercion.

And now that he is out, he is suggesting an alternate story to CBS` "48 Hours." Not that Rhonda fell, not that Rhonda was pushed, but that the

whole thing happened on purpose.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Started pouring down rain and thunder came. And so she just started bolting down. Like, at a full sprint, running down the trail.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what unfolded before your eyes?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know how far down it was, but she went off the trail.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A man hiking with Rhonda Castro says that she fell off a cliff last night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she take a step and her feet went out in front of her? Did she tumble forward? What did you see?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Next question.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I want to bring in the attorney for Steven Nichols. His name is Mike Arnold and he joins me live now.

Mike, thanks for being on the show. When I see an interview that has that moment in it, "next question," I immediately get spidey senses that tingle.

And the first question I would have for you is why on earth is he talking at all?

MIKE ARNOLD, STEVEN NICHOLS` ATTORNEY: Well, I can`t answer that, except to say that it`s probably slightly therapeutic for him to get all of these

theories off his chest. I mean, he was there. Only he and Rhonda, who has now passed, know exactly what happened in terms of conversations

beforehand. But really, the only way to know exactly what happened is by looking at the physical evidence. So, as far as what eyewitness say, I

discount that. All I care about the science and the facts.

BANFIELD: So we saw this clip a moment ago of Rhonda bouncing this adorable baby. This is the child between Rhonda and Steven. Does Steven

have custody of that child now that he`s been released?

ARNOLD: Well, I don`t really feel comfortable talking about her, except to say that if she ever gets old enough to watch any of this television

coverage that she needs to realize that her father loves her very much and throughout the entire case, all he ever asked me, whenever a decision was

to be made was, how does this help me in the custody case? He was willing to fall on his sword in order to best position himself to get back with his

daughter.

[19:25:13] BANFIELD: And do you think this CBS "48 Hours" interview is part of that effort to get custody back of this child?

ARNOLD: I think the "48 Hours" interview was always planned. They had done the first one in 2016 and they did this follow-up one after the case

was settled. So, I think it was finally an opportunity for him to kind of talk about what was on his mind and for better or for worse, that`s what he

had to say.

BANFIELD: So there`s some very strange stuff in it. I mean, I`m sure I don`t have to tell you. You have been following this case, obviously,

integrally involved with it for so many years. But there is this one moment I want to play for our audience where Steven talks about what Rhonda

told him the day that she died. The day she went over that cliff. And it all had to do with what Steven says was a weird dream that Rhonda

purportedly had. Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We woke up early, she opened the drapes and we saw, oh, it`s a beautiful day. OK, so we are going to go hiking. One of the things

she asked me on the drive over, she said, if anything ever happens to me, would you promise to watch our daughter and take care of her? And I go,

what are you talking about? She goes, I have dreams all the time that I am dead before 25.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So that`s kind of weird, Mike. And you know, the family, I think you can understand why they would feel -- and they have said that

they feel that he got away with murder. And then they see these odd clips. You can imagine that this doesn`t make them feel any better about just two

years served, right?

ARNOLD: Well, I mean, you know, feelings are one things and facts and evidence are something else. When I take a case, you know, people always

have lots to say, but the first thing I look at is, what do the actual facts, the physical evidence, what do they say? And the one thing that can

never be denied is Newton`s second law of physics, the laws of angular momentum.

Accident reconstruction and science is what dictated this case. We offered a criminally negligent homicide offer back in August of 2015. The

prosecutor laughed at us. We offered it again in 2017. And by then, they were beaten, bruised, and battered from all of our court appearances and

they finally acquiesced.

The facts were on our side. The innuendo, conjecture, and gossip was on their side. And luckily, facts typically win the day, except on 45-minute

television shows.

BANFIELD: OK. So let`s talk facts. Because you are right. When it comes down to criminal prosecutions, it`s all about the evidence, it`s not about

what happens on a show like this. And so to that end, the correspondent, Peter Van Zandt with "48 Hours" asked about this issue of was it a jump or

was it a fall, and wanted to get into the exact facts. Given that he has already served the time, has been released, he should have been able to

speak very freely. And yet if you look at this moment, he seemed to be very evasive. Again, the question was fairly simple. Was this a jump or a

fall? And, listen to how this went.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She tumble forward? What did you see?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Next question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was it a large skid mark on the path where she had slipped and went off?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, just a footprint.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just a footprint.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Steve, look at me. What you are saying is she jumped. She was going down at almost a run pace. There`s a single footprint, you

are telling me at the edge of the cliff. And she goes over. That`s a jump.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have laid everything out there. People can reach whatever conclusion they want.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: So, Mike, that was an attempt just to get the raw facts of what happened from ostensibly the only witness, that would be your client. Why

was it so hard for him to actually just say what the facts were?

ARNOLD: Yes, the raw facts of what happened show that it was -- it is possible that she jumped or was pushed, if the laws of physics somehow

don`t apply at eagle creek, which my experts believe that they did. So to get pushed or to jump off of that portion of the creek, off the trail, she

would have moved away from the edge of the cliff, rather than going straight down.

We were able to prove through the accident reconstruction that there was a ledge about 30 feet below the edge of the cliff. There was a skid mark

about the width of the length of her shoe. We had an eyewitness that said that there was water cascading over at that particular point on the trail.

A witness that I would like reviewers to know that the sheriff`s office ignored on the day of the accident. We had to track them down through

publicity in this case. He said the only way around it was to skirt it and walk around the edge of the trail. And she had injuries that were

sustained consistent with a first fall, the 20 to 30-feet to the ledge and then straight down the rest of the way to the bottom. If someone were

pushed or jumped, they wouldn`t have hit that first ledge, unless, as I mentioned before, the physics of the world don`t apply at Eagle Creek, just

like justice doesn`t.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HLN HOST: So your explanations make perfect sense, as a good defense attorney would, and then your client comes in--

ARNOLD: No, as a good scientist would.

BANFIELD: OK. But like I said, in our conversation, you`re making perfect sense. And then your client comes in and does an interview with CBS` "48

Hours" and sort of ruins all of that with what he`s saying. And when I mean that, there is this moment where he`s asked, if he went down to the

bottom below that cliff where she was lying and whether he actually put her out of her misery, which would be murder in the statutes all across the

land, and this was how that moment played out with the correspondent, Peter Van Sant. Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETER VAN SANT, CORRESPONDENT, CBS: Did you put Rhonda out of misery that day?

STEPHEN NICHOLS, DEFENDANT: Let me ask you, if you shoot your war buddy because you see how much pain he`s in, is that murder?

SANT: What do you say?

NICHOLS: I say no. Of course, not. So, to me that`s a justified, I don`t want to say homicide, but I mean, technically, it is a homicide, but it`s

justified, as of that point. You are putting someone out of their misery, and that essentially has zero chance of survival.

SANT: And is that what you did?

NICHOLS: Of course that`s not what I`m saying. I`m just saying --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Mike, that`s just weird. Did he --

ARNOLD: Just weird.

BANFIELD: -- or didn`t he do what he just explained? He thinks it would be OK. Did he end her life at the bottom of the cliff?

ARNOLD: Yes, impossible for that to happen, given the forensic and physical evidence. There`s just no way.

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: Why would he say that then? Why would he even go there? Why would he just say, this is absurd.

ARNOLD: Yes, I --

BANFIELD: Of course, I didn`t do this. He`s talking about a foxhole mate and that would be the legitimate thing to do --

ARNOLD: Yes, it`s just.

BANFIELD: -- and, you know, it`s so evasive and weird. Why would he talk like this?

ARNOLD: You know, I can`t speak for, you know, the motives in his head on what he has to say, other than the fact that I don`t trust anything coming

from someone that went through a traumatic event, suffered hypothermia from crossing a raging creek at nearly flood level and sitting in his car

shivering. I actually had expert witnesses that were prepared to testify at trial that the human brain doesn`t record events accurately when the

brain is chilled to a certain degree of temperature, which we were able to prove, due to the EMT --

BANFIELD: I get you. But I mean, listen, I`ve been to war, I had a gun held to my head by a bunch of Afghans and you can trust what I`m saying,

you know, seven, eight, nine years later. So I think that`s a bit weird.

I do actually want to bring in, if I can, Attorney Ron Bamieh, he joins me from Los Angeles. He`s a defense attorney. One quick question for you.

This is a federal park, in some weird way. I mean, it`s the Columbia River Gorge, it`s called a National Scenic Area, it`s on federal websites, et

cetera. Does that mean that the Feds could ever come in, Ron, and charge him with murder if -- because it wouldn`t be double jeopardy if the Feds

did it, even though he`s been adjudicated in this case in state court? What`s the status there?

RON BAMIEH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I don`t think the federal government could prosecute him for murder. Even though it is in a federal park, it is

in the state of Oregon. Oregon assumed jurisdiction over the case. I don`t think a federal court would be able to do so, even though it is

theoretically not double jeopardy. In fact, federal court would shy away from doing such things when the state court has already adjudicated the

case.

BANFIELD: Well, I have seen it happen before.

BAMIEH: As a matter of fact, there`s a long history of that (INAUDIBLE)

BANFIELD: It`s rare, I will give you that, Ron. It`s rare but I have seen it happen before. So, at least, sort of -- I think, you know --

BAMIEH: It happens in extreme circumstances and usually when there`s a government actor.

BANFIELD: Extreme, right. All right. Well, Stephen, himself, Nichols, has sort of left us all out there with even, you know, additional mystery,

doing these interviews with "48 Hours." Great show, by the way, and really great story, great interview, as well. My thanks to Mike Arnold, Stephen`s

attorney for being here, and also, Ron Bamieh, I`m going to ask you to stick on, if you will, stay with me.

There`s some outrage tonight as attorneys are trying to throw out bombshell recordings that are said to be of a Florida millionaire who`s accused of

torturing and sexually assaulting a young family member.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LOUIS BIANCULLI, DEFENDANT: It was never anything other than chloroform. I mean she was always asleep. She has no idea what was going on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[19:34:53] BANFIELD: So, that`s pretty awful. But will a jury ever hear that?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:40:04] BANFIELD: 71-year-old Louis Bianculli is accused of sickening crimes. But it was a medical necessity that got him out of jail on house

arrest. But he was ordered not to leave the house, so this looks like a pretty nice way to spend your house arrest, huh? Check that out.

Especially when you`re a millionaire real estate developer and when your house is a waterfront mansion. Replete with a fishing hole. This is a

place that he could still be enjoying fishing and sipping what looks like coffee and watering the plants, yapping it up on his cell phone, all while

he is supposed to be awaiting knee surgery inside the mansion, not outside.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LISA GUERRERO, CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT, INSIDE EDITION: Did you exaggerate your knee injury so that you could get out of jail, sir?

Where`s your cane? You used the cane in court but you`re not using a cane today. Why is that?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I think it`s because he was using the fishing pole as the cane and then was seeing doing this interesting leg exercises outside. So,

here`s the way this case stands now. Bianculli has had his knee surgery. It`s done. It`s finished now. So he should milk every single moment of

his house arrest in that beautiful mansion, because he could have been behind bars while he awaits a trial for some horrifying crimes. He`s

accused of sexually assaulting a young family member for years, starting from the time that she was just 12. And by the way, when we say sexually

assaulting, it goes way beyond that. Way beyond it. The courts say, the documents at least, say that he drugged that girl with chloroform, making

her unconscious, putting a bag over her head until she passed out, and then, performing, quote, surgeries on her with needles. A shattered

victim, who now is said to have heart problems and severe fear of knives. And Bianculli may not have even been caught had it not been for some really

awful audio recordings, like this one, that is said to be of Louis Bianculli, that police say his own wife secretly captured.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIANCULLI: It was never anything other than chloroform. I mean she was always asleep. She has no idea what was going on.

How could I be such a (BLEEP) sleazy piece of (BLEEP) to do that? (BLEEP) wrong with me?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: With me now, "Inside Edition" Chief Investigative Correspondent, Lisa Guerrero. And Lisa, I should note to our audience, that was you in

the boat, spotting him, basically, being naughty on house arrest. Fishing and doing things that he clearly was not supposed to be doing and not using

the cane that he had showed everyone he needed so badly. Instead, when you spotted him, and he had to turn back around, he decided to use the fishing

pole as the cane, but he didn`t need it when he was on his way out to fish in the canal. More importantly, though, Lisa, the audio recordings that

we`re hearing now are -- they`re just spine tingling, when you think of how severe these crimes are. I kind -- I kind of sugar coated it. There`s

more to what he did to that family member. What exactly is in the docs?

GUERRERO: You`re right, Ashleigh. What Mr. Bianculli is accused of doing is reprehensible. For years, starting at the time when his stepdaughter

was 12 years old, he covered her mouth with chloroform, knocked her out, sexually assaulted her, according to documents, and performed surgeries on

her, where he would take needles and suck fat from different parts of her body and put that fat back into her breasts. Some really reprehensible

things. And I have to tell you that in my investigation on Louis Bianculli last year, we found other victims that claimed several -- similar things,

including a neighbor who says that he started chloroforming her and assaulting her when she was 10 years old. And other victims have come

forward, as well. So this man has been doing these types of things for about five decades, according to these victims.

BANFIELD: So Lisa, did they go to the police and are there any possibilities for charges to be leveled for those additional allegations?

GUERRERO: Yes. And in fact, the victim that we spoke to, Nancy Olson, told me last year that she later, when she became an adult, went to therapy

and that`s when all of this information came out. And she was willing to move forward and talk to law enforcement about it. So, we`ll see if that

ever comes to fruition for her. In the meantime, in this case, one of the really disturbing parts of it is, you know, you saw him out there living

this life of luxury and fishing off his dock and walking around his pool and moving furniture and reading books and drinking coffee. Believe it or

not, since then, the terms of his house arrest have become even more loose.

[19:45:00] Meaning now, not only is he at home, he`s actually allowed to leave home for four hours a day. He`s allowed to go and do errands. He

can go shopping. He can look -- he can look after his other real estate properties. He owns about 20 properties in the Fort Lauderdale area. And

he`s even allowed to maintain his boat so that it doesn`t lose value.

BANFIELD: There`s so many -- you know, there`s so many questions I have about that, but I`m just going to leave that to the process, because that`s

just it, right? It`s not as though he`s -- you know, he`s not running from the law. The law is allowing this and it`s maddening. But what might also

be more maddening is those audio tapes. The audio tapes -- let me play it again real quickly, this mash-up of some of the things he said. Have a

look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIANCULLI: It was never anything other than chloroform. I mean she was always asleep. She has no idea what was going on.

How could I be such a (BLEEP) sleazy piece of (BLEEP) to do that? (BLEEP) wrong with me?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Lisa, why are these tapes in jeopardy? Why wouldn`t they be sort of the star feature of a trial against him?

GUERRERO: You would think they would be, right? Here`s what his attorneys are saying. That there is a chain of custody issue and that those tapes

could have been tampered with. Now, the detectives on the case say that those tapes have been locked up, they`ve been safe, nobody has tampered at

all with the tapes, but that`s what his lawyers are alleging. That it is a chain of custody issue.

BANFIELD: Wow.

GUERRERO: So they want them thrown out.

BANFIELD: See if that happens. Lisa, stick around. I want to talk more about how we found out about Louis Bianculli`s house arrest deal in the

first place and where we go from here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:51:27] BANFIELD: Louis Bianculli allegedly assaulted a young family member from the time she was just 12. And believe it or not, that assault

included alleged sexual surgeries. I want to bring in, if I can, private investigator Robert Crispin and defense attorney Ron Bamieh.

Robert, as a private investigator involved in this case, do you know anything more about the tapes? Like what else is on the tapes? Because

all we`ve been hearing so far is this. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIANCULLI: It was never anything other than chloroform. I mean she was always asleep. She has no idea what was going on.

How could I be such a (BLEEP) sleazy piece of (BLEEP) to do that? (BLEEP) wrong with me?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Robert, it seems really damning. Is there more?

ROBERT CRISPIN, CEO, CRISPIN SPECIAL INVESTIGATIONS INC.: (INAUDIBLE) any of those tapes. I only hear what has been obviously released to you guys.

So I don`t have first-hand knowledge of what else is on there, but I can tell you that those tapes are priceless. And you know, I`m --

BANFIELD: Yes, priceless. But they seem to have been like, maybe, if you believe it, the challenge to the tapes going into court, it seems that the

chain of custody may have been altered in some way. Do you know anything about that?

CRISPIN: You know, I don`t know anything about the tapes being altered or the chain of custody being altered. I will tell you that law enforcement

has strict guidelines, and law enforcement carries those standards utmost, up front, and you know, this all comes down to the prosecutor and the

defense, you know, fighting it out and who`s going to believe who.

BANFIELD: I cannot wait to hear more of them if they`re going to be part of the trial. It`s just -- it`s incredible to hear that kind of a -- of a

-- It`s almost, I mean, it really sounds like a confession, but that brings me to Ron Bamieh. Ron, suppression of evidence and a motion to suppress

tapes like this especially with an allegation that the chain of custody was somehow impeded. I think the suggestion is that a police officer had it

locked up in his desk or had tapes locked up in his desk. Is that egregious enough to meet the bar?

BAMIEH: No, that officer could have had those tapes in the back of his Buick on a family vacation. It doesn`t matter. The chain of custody goes

to weight. It doesn`t go to admissibility. Meaning, the jury gets to decide whether they think the tapes are authentic or not. The jury will

decide whether or not the tapes are legitimate or not. So, if they have an argument that, hey, look, these tapes have been tampered with, OK, put on

your evidence about them tampered with and if they were to believe that that will --

BANFIELD: Do you think we`re going to hear them? Ron, you think -- you think those tapes will make it into trial?

BAMIEH: Oh, yes. No doubt.

BANFIELD: Wow.

BAMIEH: There`s no -- there`s not even -- it`s not even a close call. It`s -- you know, I`m in California, I make that call for Florida right

now.

BANFIELD: I don`t like -- I don`t like his chances -- Yes, I don`t like his chances if that`s the case. Hold that thought. My thanks to Ron

Bamieh, Robert Crispin, and also Lisa Guerrero for reporting on that story for us.

Straight ahead, we all need somebody to look up to. We all need somebody to inspire us. And so, it turns out do our little furry friends. Check

that little gaze, looking over the big guy. Who`s a good boy?

[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: "ONE MORE THING" for you tonight. A police dog and a wannabe new best friend. That is little 10-week old, Charlie below that awesome,

awesome cop dog. Charlie is chocolate lab. Clearly got the thrill of his life when he met one of San Jose`s finest named K-9 Bravo. Bravo and his

handler spotted that little guy and then invited him to sit in the back of the police car just so that he could look up to an idol and imagine what it

would be like to be a police dog one day. And provided for one awesome photograph. Worthy of a screensaver if I do say so. I`m a dog person.

Thanks for watching, everybody. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. See you back here tomorrow night 6:00 for CRIME & JUSTICE. Meantime, "DEATH ROW STORIES"

begins right now.

END