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NEWS STREAM
Trebes Terror Attack. Aired 8-9a ET
Aired March 23, 2018 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
[08:00:00] MAX FOSTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The French prime minister has told local media that it`s a hostage situation in the town of Trebes. We`re
now expecting to hear from the president from Brussels in half an hour. And I`ll hand it over to Kristie who is taking over for that.
KRISTIE LU STOUT, CNN NEWS STREAM SHOW HOST: Max, thank you. I`m Kristie Lu Stout and welcome to "News Stream." Again, breaking news from France.
There is this ongoing incident at a supermarket with the prime minister calling it a hostage taking. At least one person is dead. France is calling
it a terror situation that is still unfolding.
The French prime minister just told French media that there is this ongoing hostage situation in the southern city of Trebes. We know at least one
person has been killed. We have been monitoring our affiliate BFM TV. BFM TV is reporting that a man earlier today opened fire inside a Super U
supermarket in the city in what`s been described as quote, ISIS-inspired incident. BFM is getting that information from a prosecutor.
We know that there is a police operation. The police operation is ongoing. We also know that the French interior minister has been briefed by security
forces on the situation and is heading to the scene. We also know that the French president is due to make a statement within a half an hour from now.
Let`s go out to Jim Bittermann who joins us now from Paris. Jim, in the last half hour or so, you`ve been getting dribs and drabs of information on
what is happening in this ongoing police operation in Southern France. What more have you learned?
JIM BITTERMANN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it`s not a stabilized situation, at least not at the moment. In fact, the SWAT team
that was going down there is traveling down with three helicopters right now and will shortly arrive on the scene, one would imagine. But the local
(INAUDIBLE) have been surrounding the supermarket. Inside, a gunman with an unknown number of hostages.
The mayor of the local village of Trebes says in fact that one person has been killed. There may be others who are killed, apparently are people on
the ground inside the supermarket that can be seen on the ground inside the supermarket. So, in fact, it`s not clear what the situation is there.
The situation, as you mentioned, began this morning as a group of four (INAUDIBLE) police officers were out jogging this morning and someone came
along in the car, tried to run them down and then opened up fire. One police officer was injured slightly and was taken to hospital.
The same person then went to this supermarket on a Friday morning when probably there were a number of people in there doing their weekend
shopping and fired a shot in the air and cried out "Allahu Akbar" and has told officials on the scene, told police on the scene that he is a member
or is doing this in the name of ISIS. So that`s why the Paris Prosecutor`s Office has gotten involved.
The prosecutor -- the terrorism prosecutor is consulting with the intelligence services. Apparently, according to a report just a few minutes
ago from the intelligence services, they do not know the identity of this gunman, at least so far, so he has not been on the radar.
Of course this is something that is quite sensitive here in France because of the number of French young people who went off to Syria and Iraq during
the height of ISIS power and served in their command and served their war needs in the Middle East. A number of them have been trying to come back
and the government has been screening them case by case. Some have been allowed to come back, but in very, very small numbers. Most have been kept
away from France.
They`ve been told -- the French government has told the Syrian authorities and the Iraqi authorities to in fact prosecute them where they are. So the
French don`t want them back on the soil for exactly this kind of thing, to avoid exactly this kind of thing happening. This has been a danger all
along in France.
There have been a number of young people that have been proselytized too by ISIS and have succumbed to their message and taken up arms against both in
the Middle East and (INAUDIBLE) but also here in France and perpetrated various terrorism events here.
This is the first terrorism attack of its sort since last October, October of 2017, when two young ladies were attacked with a knife outside of a
train station, the last two people to have been killed in a terrorist attack here in France.
So this is something that comes along as a great surprise to a number of French people because I think as time passed without having this kind of an
attack, people kind of get blase about the idea that the threat has gone away but obviously, this morning, it hasn`t. Kristie?
[08:05:05] LU STOUT: Yes. This is the latest outbreak of violence to take place in France. This time the south of France at the Super U supermarket.
It`s an ongoing police operation. This is a hostage taking that is under way. It has been described as a terror incident because of that link to
ISIS that was claimed.
Can you tell us more about the city? Where this is taking place? I mean this is a tourist destination.
BITTERMANN: Well, Trebes is the actual town where this is taking place, a very small town. It`s close to Carcassonne which a lot of people may know
because Carcassonne is in the middle of (INAUDIBLE) which is famous for its summer festival, also for summer home and people from Great Britain, for
example, Americans and others.
It`s quite an attractive tourist area, summertime known for its wine growing and its olive production and whatnot. It`s a very rural kind of
area. The roads are not necessarily very good, which I think is probably one of the things that may have delayed the response time as far as the
police were concerned this morning.
But like I said, there are some now helicopters, loads of SWAT teams on their way to this supermarket. One other thing I forgot to mention,
probably should have, is in fact behind the supermarket is garage with about 50 people in it that police have told them to stay there simply
because the situation is ongoing. They don`t want them caught up in the crossfire. So a number of people who are being told to hunker down in place
nearby as this situation continues.
As you mentioned, the interior mister is on his way down. The prime minister who is in Eastern France at a speaking engagement is on his way
back to Paris. And the president who is up in Brussels for the EU Summit will be coming back a little later on in the day. As you mentioned, he`ll
be speaking, addressing the French public within the hour. Kristie?
LU STOUT: France is no stranger to these types of attacks. You mentioned the attack in Marseille last year. There was the Champs-Elysees attack in
2016. There was a hostage attack in a church in France which also means that local security forces are usually well briefed and being able to
handle situations like this.
How will you gauge the ability of local security forces to be able to manage this hostage situation and to neutralize the assailants?
BITTERMANN: Well, over the years with the multiple attacks, they have really gotten better and better with what they`re doing. They`ve gotten
better armed as well. I mean along the Champs-Elysees behind me, you`ll see probably even as I`m speaking there`s probably patrols on the Champs-
Elysees with armored vests and with submachine guns. The patrols usually have three or four officers and at least one is carrying a sub-machine gun.
So they definitely have upgraded the response since the various attacks here.
And one thing I know that has happened and made a great deal of publicity about this when Macron came to power, President Macron came to power, is
that he distressed at the idea that there could be these terrorism attacks and there were a couple in the early days of his presidency that he wanted
to make sure that there was a SWAT team within a half hour or so of every single part of France that they could have a response time of a half hour.
And so that`s, I think, what we`re seeing in process this morning, Kristie.
LU STOUT: All right. Jim Bittermann, reporting live from Paris. Thank you, Jim. Let`s get more now on the situation. CNN`s Melissa Bell joins us. She
is on her way to where this police operation is taking place, on her way to the scene in Trebes.
Melissa, thank you for joining us. Again, you`re en route to the scene of this hostage taking incident that is still unfolding, that has been called
a terror attack. Any new information?
MELISSA BEEL, CNN PARIS CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): For the time being, plenty of speculation as you would expect, Kristie, at this stage. It has
been so long since France had been struck by a terror attack. (INAUDIBLE) security had already set in as Jim was just saying. Let`s go back to
October knife attack on two young women in Marseille that left them dead and before that to the summer. We`d actually become (INAUDIBLE) having much
more frequent attacks than that.
So of course plenty of attention on this unfolding situation and yet we`ve had quite a few things confirmed by authorities already, Kristie, including
that the anti-terrorist section of the French (INAUDIBLE). Of course that is a confirmation of the fact that there are elements to lead them to
believe that this is the case.
We are hearing plenty of things from the French media, from people on the ground because it sounds as though quite a lot of people, Kristie, managed
to make it out of the supermarket and to speak about what they`ve seen.
LU STOUT: The interior minister is heading down to Trebes.
[08:10:00] We know that there is a big local response in terms of security response to the hostage taking under way. Helicopters reported there at the
scene. The French president is due to speak at the half hour mark. When Macron speaks, what are we going to be listening out for?
BELL (via telephone): It`s an exercise he hasn`t been that used to. We had far more attacks of course at the time of (INAUDIBLE) or attacks on the
scale that required the president to speak in any case because what we`ve seen in the course of last year with increasing number of attacks with cars
on the Champs-Elysees, some were deadly, others failed before they could achieve their target.
But something on this scale and it does sound because it is ongoing, because it is a hostage situation, because there is still so little
clarity, Kristie, about the death toll, for instance, for now, the French prime minister would not be drawn on it. They refused to confirm what would
in any case be a toll -- a death toll that would be likely to involved.
For the time being, there is very little clarity and of course the French will be looking at once for reassurance and information on precisely what
we know so far.
LU STOUT: And right now, what we know is one person has been killed, others taken hostage at the supermarket in Southern France. The number of
hostage takers involved, we don`t know that. The number of people who may still be inside the supermarket, we don`t know that either. There has also
been this claim that it`s somehow ISIS-linked. How much credence should we give to that claim?
BELL (via telephone): We`re hearing from a number of witnesses who have spoken in the French media, Kristie, that the man is said to have spoken
the words "Allahu Akbar" as he entered the supermarket. We believe he entered just after 11:15 local time, so a couple of hours ago. That must
have led authorities to open this anti-terror investigation.
At any rate, the fact that it`s been open, Kristie, does suggest that they lend credence to that. I have yet to see such a sort of (INAUDIBLE) that
have been proved out not to be terrorist- linked. So I think we can work on the assumption that that is what the authorities believe is under way even
now in Trebes.
LU STOUT: And the mood in France as another attack is unfolding right now. How much confidence do the people have in France in their government to be
able to protect and to safeguard them?
BELL (via telephone): Well, you know they`ve seen the physical proof of what Jim was describing just a moment ago, Kristie, which is this beefed up
security, very visible in the streets of Paris, of other towns as well, armed military personnel. Tourists who have been here recently would have
been struck by it. Increasing number of police patrol as well. A much stronger system also.
We have seen the reinforcing on the legal front of the power that the authorities have to carry out surveillance, to keep track of these people,
especially at this time, as Jim was just saying a moment ago, when it is feared that many of the Jihadis who left for ISIS-held territory over the
last few years may want to come back. So there is this increased vigilance, heightened vigilance.
French authorities have very much been on high alert with a state of emergency in place for the last couple of years. So there`s a sense that
this is the kind of thing that they are prepared for.
LU STOUT: And tell us about the area where this is all taking place. A tourist area. A collection of provincial towns.
BELL (via telephone): Yes, it is. It`s not very far from Cascassonne. The town in which this happened, Trebes, is a very small town. This is simply
not the kind of thing that you will expect to take place in a town like this one.
It had of course, Kristie, been such a long time. And really what we`ve seen in the last few years is that the attacks intended to focus on large
cities, Paris, Nice, Marseille. There have been incidents in quieter places, but they`re pretty rare on the whole.
LU STOUT: OK. Melissa Bell, reporting live for us. She is on her way to where this is unfolding in Trebes, France. Melissa, thank you very much
indeed for joining us here.
Now, let`s go to Nick Paton Walsh. He has been monitoring the story ever since it broke on our air. He joins us from our London bureau. Nick, as you
have been picking up more details about what is happening with this police operation about the one confirmed death, that this is a hostage taking,
that the prosecutor`s office believes that this is terror-linked, what is capturing your attention? What`s your latest assessment?
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, at this point, let`s do a quick recap shall we of exactly what we do and don`t know
at this point. Yes, the prime minister of France, Edouard Philippe, clear that this is, in his words, a terrorist act.
Local media are reporting three separate things. Of course, this is all preliminary information but it begins to give an idea as to exactly what
we`re dealing with here. That man claiming to be associated with ISIS or Daesh, as you would say in many parts overall, went into a supermarket this
morning.
Some shots were fired. There is a consequence of those shots being fired, two people were hit, who apparently now lie on the ground, according to
local media.
[08:15:01] It`s unclear if any of those two are one of the dead people referred to by another French official separately, the mayor of Trebes
itself. So a complicated situation here in the supermarket. The suggestion we`re talking about one hostage taker at this point. The fact that shots
are fired lead you to conclude this is most likely a gunman.
There are separate reports suggesting the possibility of whereabouts of other hostages, that maybe one of these might be a police officer, but it
is quite clear from the pictures both we are seeing and the response from cabinet level, from the prime minister here that we are dealing with a
serious situation that is now pretty much entirely surrounded at this point.
The specialist units of French police are on their way to guarantee sort of safe and swift intervention here. And, of course also, Gerard Collomb, the
interior minister is said to be due to make a statement when he arrives in that particular area.
There is an earlier instance in the day which is unclear exactly how it relates. That will be of course important as we move forward, involving
some (INAUDIBLE) specialists, French police who were out possibly jogging, who may have been fired upon in Carcassonne not far away. That may be
related.
One of those police may, it turns out, have been wounded. There are also suggestions possibly in local media that a car may have been involved.
We`ve seen those used a lot in the past in trying to ram into targets that terrorists consider to be vulnerable.
But the important point to remember here is that we`re dealing with clearly a hostage standoff. There is no doubt about that. The French government is
clear, there`s a terrorist link here and the situation is currently surrounded by the police. We do not know a solid casualty figure here. We
have suggestions of two or more people who may be injured.
The big question, of course, about this is, is ISIS somehow involved? Now Kristie, let`s step back. We`re dealing with a massively diminished
organization from we saw similar attacks in Bataclan near Paris. They lost pretty much all of what they used to call caliphate in Syria and Iraq so
they are ragtag insurgency in those areas from hiding in the desert. And an online ideology that inspires people to do foolish and disgusting things.
It may be a connection here. It may be a criminal enterprise went wrong and somebody has decided to use -- invoke the word ISIS to gain some sort of
leverage. Unclear. It may be that this man work up this morning or woman and decided this was the course of action they wanted to pursue this day in
the name of ISIS. We simply don`t know at this stage.
The group themselves, this media wing has been heavily damaged to some degree, have made no noise at this point (INAUDIBLE) appear at this stage
to be citing officials who suggest that this may be ISIS-inspired, according to what witnesses say the hostage taker has said.
So there`s a lot still unsure here but obviously as you`ve been hearing, France is not a country unpracticed in dealing with situations like this. A
very sad and tragic past. In Nice, for example, a (INAUDIBLE) ramming in to holidaymakers on a promenade and of course Bataclan where concertgoers were
brutally shot down.
It`s a country that has had a very sad and lengthy history of this. We don`t know the full facts at this point. I think, of course, French
officials are trying at this stage to show the highest level. They are fully engaged in trying to bring some sense of calm. But the actual fact of
what is happening inside that supermarket is still somewhat hazy, Kristie.
LU STOUT: Whether or not this is a work of an ISIS sympathizer, we simply don`t know at this stage. Nick Paton Walsh, reporting live for us, thank
you.
Here is what we know about the situation that is still unfolding right now. The French prime minister has told local media there is an ongoing hostage
situation in Trebes, a Southern France city. We know at least one person has been killed. Our affiliate BFM TV is reporting that a man opened fire
inside a Super-U supermarket in an ISIS-inspired incident.
The Paris prosecutor`s office has opened a murder as well as a terror investigation into the situation. And we know there is an ongoing police
operation. The French interior minister has been briefed by security forces on the situation and is indeed heading to the scene.
Sajjan Gohel is the international security director at the Asia-Pacific Foundation. He is also a terrorism expert. He joins us now. Thank you for
joining us here in the program. As you heard from Nick Paton Walsh just then, on one hand, we look at this ISIS claim and we figure that we should
take that with a deal of skepticism given the diminished capacity of ISIS in Syria and Iraq.
On the other hand, the prosecutor`s office is saying, yes, there`s a terror investigation under way. What is the link of terror? Your thoughts on
what`s happening there in Southern France.
SAJJAN GOHEL, INTERNATIONAL SECURITY DIRECTOR, ASIA-PACIFIC FOUNDATION: I think the most important thing is the aspect of the hostage taking. That
tactic of that. We`ve seen it being executed in France on a number of occasions in the past.
Amedy Coulibaly in 2015 taking people hostage at a kosher supermarket in Paris, or the incident in the church in Normandy a couple years ago where a
French priest was murdered.
[08:20:07] There have been other instances of hostage taking. And this bears some degree of similarity. The other elements that would be important
to decipher is whether a police officer has also been taken hostage in this incident. We know that in France that the police have been targeted in
attacks before. Amedy Coulibaly killed a French policewoman. Larossi Abballa murdered a French police chief and his partner at their home.
So the tactic does have eerie similarities to ISIS-inspired plots in the past. Whether this is being directed by them or not, we have to wait and
see. But we also know that even though the physical caliphate of ISIS may have collapsed to some degree, the virtual caliphate, inspiring people
through the dark web, through encrypted messaging still continues.
LU STOUT: Why this area? Why in Trebes, France? Why does this stand out as a target?
GOHEL: Well, it`s unusual compared to some of the bigger plots that have taken place in France such as predominantly in Paris. We also had the Nice
Bastille Day attack. There have been incidence in the southern city of Marseille.
But this particular place that has now attracted international attention is a popular tourist resort. We know that terrorists do try and carry out
attacks in places where there is high concentration of people, tourists. They want to have economic, political and social consequences as well.
LU STOUT: And the hostage taking incident. This is taking place at a Super U supermarket. This is of course a soft target. How do authorities go about
protecting such places and perhaps preventing an incident like this?
GOHEL: Well, keep in mind that with every terrorist attack, whether it is successful in killing numbers of people or whether it is just one
individual, the second goal of terrorists is to cause disruption. It is to change the way we think and feel about our safety and security to have that
enormous psychological impact.
That is why it`s very important not to allow that to take place. It is difficult to have armed guards at every vicinity in a supermarket or in a
public place. We know that following the (INAUDIBLE) attacks in France in November 2015, France had declared a state of emergency. There was a much
more visible troop presence in some of the major cities in the country. And that state of emergency lasted for a very long time.
But it`s not possible. It`s not practical. It`s not feasible to protect every single public place. These incidents are taking place on a much less
frequent period. If you look at what took place last year in terms of the number of attacks, they were a lot less than they had been previously.
There were incidents in the U.K. such as in London and Manchester. There was the attack in Las Ramblas in Barcelona. But the number of plots seemed
to decrease as ISIS`s caliphate also decreased. One can only hope that this incident that we see today is not necessarily the start of a new number of
plots that could emanate that are inspired by ISIS.
LU STOUT: OK. Sajjan Gohel, security and terror expert, thank you very much indeed for sharing your thoughts with us on this breaking news story.
Now, let`s bring in Max Foster who joins us live from CNN`s London Newsroom. And Max, you were recently briefed by German, French, and British
security officers about terror attacks like this. What did they tell you? Connect the dots for us. How you were briefed in what`s happening right now
in Trebes in Southern France?
FOSTER: Yes, so, a lot of them was off the record, but it was the heads of the international intelligence agencies of France, Germany, and U.K. Their
message really was how they have to work together and how politicians should allow them to work together because to prevent or to work on events
exactly like this, they need to work together.
It was -- you know, ISIS, if it is indeed ISIS, is seen as a common threat to the shared values of those three countries. So what they talked about,
what you heard there from Dr. Gohel, was about the idea that we shouldn`t be -- you know, fall back on the idea that the caliphate has been
destroyed, therefore, ISIS doesn`t exist. It very much does exist in this virtual world.
And worse than that, a lot of the organizers are out there in sleeper cells in places like Turkey and Syria and Iraq, with the mission to come to
Europe and to carry out acts like this. So the threat hadn`t gone away in any sense at all.
So separately intelligence sources talking about this sort of incident that is exactly the sort of thing they`ve been preparing for which is probably
why you`ve got this response and how we shouldn`t rest on our (INAUDIBLE).
There has been a lull in European attacks recently but that`s only whilst they stay and regrouped (ph) away from a geographic caliphate and more of a
virtual one.
[08:24:59] So there is a concern that this sort of thing might be more common going ahead. So hasn`t gone away the threat.
LU STOUT: Yes, the threat hasn`t gone away even though the physical caliphate is gone. As you say, it is now virtual caliphate. Were you
briefed at all? Any ideas shared about how you go about countering something that is virtual then? How do you then combat an ideology that
brings about what`s happening here in ISIS-inspired event?
FOSTER: This comes back to your specialism, Kristie, because their great concern is they don`t have access to the social media networks where many
of these conversations take place. They want to have access to that. They want to have access to WhatsAapp, to Facebook and to all the different
types of agencies where they speak to each other and they can regroup.
But also if this turns out to be a case of someone that`s inspired by the ideology, how do you prevent that propaganda? And certainly a couple of
months ago, media monitoring agencies have shown that there was an uptick in propaganda, if you like, from ISIS online.
So this comes off the back of that. A lull in the chatter about terror attacks in Europe followed by an increase in the chatter of -- in relation
to how to carry out these attacks. But also to inspire people to go about them. So you know better than me how far the intelligence agencies have
gone in cracking the social media companies. But from the intelligence point of view, they haven`t gotten very far, not far enough.
LU STOUT: And why is it that the ISIS ideology is just so seductive and continues to inspire even after the fall of the caliphate?
FOSTER: I think the caliphate, the destruction of the caliphate creates a resurgence, if you like, in the ideology because they feel that they have
been beaten. They are absolutely attached to the ideology and they`re going to fight for it. So there is talk of a last (INAUDIBLE) type of attack.
And also a lot of concern has to be said about radicalized children who may be able to get old, as they grow older, very difficult to deradicalize.
Also a lot of the women who may be involved there who may be under the radar, who may be out to carry these attacks out as well.
So those are the sorts of things they are looking and they are very concerned about the conversations going on in the digital world and keeping
on top of them when it`s such a huge operation which is why these intelligence agencies are so keen to work together. It takes a huge amount
of resource.
But also you saw the response today. You can see how they obviously thought this was a very serious incident so they threw everything at it. I suspect
a lot of intelligence played into that as well. They may able to search the systems very quickly by working together.
LU STOUT: Absolutely. Max Foster, reporting live from London. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and that briefing that you have with us. Now
let`s go back to Jim Bittermann in Paris. Jim, you`ve been collecting more information about this police operation, about what`s happening in Trebes.
What have you learned?
BITTERMANN: Kristie, just as Max was reporting there, intelligence agencies are busily going through their files and in fact they have discovered that
they believe they know who this gentleman is that`s taken the hostages and they have an identity on him. We don`t know who it is but they do.
And according to one report, which is on our sister station BFM Television, they say that in fact he is asking for Salah Abdeslam, who was involved in
the November 13th Bataclan attacks here. He is asking, the hostage taker is asking for Salah Abdeslam to be freed. He is in prison right now. He is the
only one of the November 13th attackers who in fact survived those attacks in Brussels where he was arrested.
In any case, that is only a report that BFM has. We are hearing, though, for sure that this all began as Max was reporting this morning when four
(INAUDIBLE) coming down from a jog were, in fact, attacked by someone who tried to run them over. One was shot by the attacker and it is believed
he`s the same person that then went in and took the hostages inside the store.
We`ve just heard recently in the last few minutes here from an employee of the store who was in a garage behind the store where we`ve been told there
are a number of employees who are on lockdown as this police operation unfolds. They clearly don`t want to have anybody wandering into a line of
fire if in fact there something does break out here.
In any case, he was calling in to, again, to BFM network and talking to them about what he had seen. He said he heard shots fired in the store this
morning. He was at work. He immediately took cover and ran away from the scene and took shelter in this garage area which is behind the supermarket.
A number of other employees are there too.
[08:30:00] The police have been protected and in lockdown there. They don`t want them going out and wandering around. So there is some evidence
and also the -- there is this idea that, in fact, the gunman as he came in shouted "Allahu Akbar" and that`s what has caused so much terror as far as
the terrorism prosecutor here is concerned.
The terrorism prosecutor in Paris has taken this over, and the interior minister is on his way down there because of the feeling that this is a
terrorism-related event. The prime minister who is in Mulhouse which is in Eastern France is on his way back to Paris and the interior minister on his
way down to the scene. Kristie?
LU STOUT: OK. You`ve given us a lot of new information just then, listening into BFM TV, CNN`s affiliate there in France, talking to an
eyewitness who heard shots earlier today when he was at work at Super U, took over, ran away to the garage behind the supermarket.
But also that key information that you delivered at the beginning of your report. Police now know the identity of the hostage taker. We don`t know
the name just yet, but the police know the identity of the hostage taker, and he is asking for the man involved in the Bataclan attack, the survivor
of -- who was behind the attack in Bataclan to be freed.
So we can confirm that what you`re learning here, Jim, that first of all, there is only one hostage taker involved, that he has issued a demand, and
now we know why this is a terror-related incident.
BITTERMANN: Well, I would caution on the demand. That`s something that`s being reported --
LU STOUT: OK.
BITTERMANN: -- by the local media BFM. We have a lot of confidence in them, but nonetheless, it`s being reported. It`s not confirmed by
authorities yet. I would be cautious about that. As far as we know, no one has said there`s been any other person involved in this attack. It is from
the very beginning when it started off this morning as an attack against the (INAUDIBLE) who were jogging and developed more into the hostage
taking.
In fact, there`s never been any suggestion that any more than one person is involved by any of the authorities down there including the mayor who has
been talking about this as well, Kristie.
LU STOUT: OK. Jim Bittermann, reporting live from Paris. Thank you for that update there. Let`s go to Nick Paton Walsh in London who has been
working on the story as well. Nick, what have you learned?
PATON WALSH: At this stage, we do not have a precise death toll of this incident. We are hearing from local media of two people who are wounded,
seen lying on the ground there. And of course this extraordinary suggestion that there is a claim or demand from the hostage taker for the release of
Salah Abdeslam, the only surviving gunman from the November 2015 attacks in Paris, subsequently on trial in Brussels, expected to be extradited to
France at some point.
Now of course, pretty well storied figure, Salah Abdeslam and the broader question, of course, will be, did the men possibly know each other or are
we simply talking about somebody who is considered to be sort of ubiquitous enough to cause an ISIS-related gunman might possibly seek to pursue.
I say ISIS, we still don`t have clarification of that. There are reports from the scene that "Allahu Akbar" was shouted. That is not by itself an
immediate link to ISIS. It just means "God is great" so there are plenty of other Jihadi groups who might choose to use that particular phrasing.
But just going back to something Max was touching on earlier on. There had been reported and monitored after the caliphate in Syria and Iran of course
losing such a vast amount of territory, particularly the capital Raqqa, but a sort of falloff was noticed in the volume of propaganda online that ISIS
was able to generate.
Now, certainly some monitoring project have subsequently gone back and established that that propaganda itself would begin to tick up in the past
months or so. There is no specific relation between the volume of propaganda online and the volume of attacks often seen. Of course many many
believe they are somehow linked but essentially you need people willing to carry out attacks like that.
Another question, of course, people will be looking toward this incident to assess. Even though it is unclear at this point if we`re talking about an
ISIS-related individual and it does appear according to Jim and the local TV station BFM that that they believe they know the identity of the gunman,
not unlikely if he`s on his own, this incident has already been going to some degree for hours.
There are many reports suggesting that perhaps his car has been located in the supermarket outside -- in the supermarket parking outside the Super U
in Trebes. That perhaps this may be an individual who they`re searching through databases to establish whether he`s known to have been on the run,
for example. Completely unrelated incidents that show you the scale of a manhunt continuing.
In fact, just yesterday, the U.S. State Department put out sanctions advisory saying they were putting specific sanctions on an individual, Joe
Asperman, who they said was a French individual who was a senior ISIS chemical weapons expert.
[08:35:06] A name unfamiliar to many, but clearly prominent in minds of U.S. intelligence. The fear of course being that after the sort of anvil
came down on Syria and Iraq, after Mosul fell and then Raqqa fell as well, that on the -- perhaps a deal that was hashed at the end of the fall of
Raqqa.
Many foreign fighters including many westerners fled the major city of Raqqa which ISIS declared itself or so-called caliphate in Syria. They
fled. It is unclear where they went. The suggestion of course is that the only real destination for them outside the barren deserts of Northern Syria
currently held by U.S.-backed Syrian Kurds would to be head towards Turkey and then perhaps beyond as well. But a complicated situation here.
I should point out as I`ve been talking, BFM television who Jim has stated is a reliable information source for us, our affiliate there, is now in
fact saying the assailant was quote, known to intelligence agencies. So information developing quickly here.
If they know who he is, they may know whether he has a link to Salah Abdeslam, whether his demand for his freedom is somehow related to that
relationship or the place that Salah Abdeslam holds in a sort of twisted mythology of ISIS`s attack inside of Europe.
And of course they will be looking to see if he is somebody who has spent his entire recent years in France or maybe returned from somewhere else. A
lot of information that they`ll be able to gather if they know who this person is in order to assist them in this hostage standoff.
But the major points, we don`t have -- ability here is this gunman, we say gunman because shots have been heard and people appear to have been wounded
from gunfire. We do not know at this point if this gunman has a particular number of hostages under his control right now although we are hearing,
Kristie, they know who he is and what he particularly wants. Kristie?
LU STOUT: Yes, a lot of questions about the gunman. Also of course about the number of people inside the supermarket, the connection to ISIS, et
cetera. Nick Paton Walsh, reporting live for us, thank you.
Now, we also have CNN`s Melissa Bell who has been monitoring the situation. She`s in fact on her way to the scene of where this hostage taking incident
is taking place in Trebes. Melissa, earlier, we were talking about what BFM TV, CNN`s affiliate, has been reporting. That police know the identity of
the hostage taker and the fact that this hostage taker was known to intelligence agencies. What additional intel have you been able to pick up?
BELL (via telephone): This is one of the questions of course each time one of these attacks takes place. Whether he was on the radar of French
authorities, whether they took their eye off the ball. And this is an ongoing question, of course.
We`ve seen tightening of legislation recently trying to make it easier for them to keep track of those they suspect wanting to carry out terrorist
attacks or having a terrorist connection -- connection with terrorists known to be elsewhere.
The question of whether he was known is of course a crucial one. Another big question that we have is the number of people still there. We heard
over the course of the last couple hours that many people did manage to get out and were hunkering down in local offices, local shops in order to stay
safe.
But we don`t know for the time being precisely what the death toll is. We don`t know how many people are dead, how many people are wounded, how many
people are still being held, Kristie.
LU STOUT: That`s right. We don`t know about the victims. We don`t know about the people still being held, if there are additional fatalities,
other than one fatality confirmed. And also just to put the focus back on the gunman, the hostage taker, according to BFM TV, saying that this man is
asking for Salah Abdeslam, the man involved in the Bataclan attack to be freed. We also don`t know whether these two individuals actually know each
other.
BELL (via telephone): Precisely. And any link between them is one of the first questions that authorities will be asking. It`s been a great deal of
focus here in France on the Salah Abdeslam trial. He is, of course, the last surviving terrorist that was involved in those attacks in Paris on
13th of November 2015. His trial is ongoing. It`s been attracting a great deal of attention.
Was anything carried out of sympathy or if there are people linked? That`s one of the questions we`ll try to get answered as soon as we can. We should
be learning more shortly, Kristie. Of course the president is due to speak to give you an idea of the gravity of the situation, the seriousness with
which they`re addressing it and taking events down in Trebes. We should find out more about precisely what authorities have managed to piece
together so far.
LU STOUT: Yes. And to also get some clarification on any sort of tie to ISIS, if this hostage taker is ISIS-related or ISIS-inspired. We were
talking just now with Nick Paton Walsh about the end of the ISIS caliphate. The fall of ISIS in Iraq and Syria.
And how number of foreign fighters have moved elsewhere. Have moved, for example, to the west in places like France. What do we know about the ISIS
presence in France in terms of foreign fighters who may be in the country or the popularity of the ideology there?
[08:40:05] BELL (via telephone): Well, we know that it is something the French authorities are keeping an extremely close eye on. This has been one
of the questions ever since that all began.
What to do with the returnees? What to do with the families of the terrorists that have been there? What to do with the women and their
children as they try to get back to France? Some saying that they are willing to face jail time. But this is of course one of the big questions
that France is facing.
There were so many hundreds of French Jihadi fighters involved in the events in Iraq and Syria over the last few years. The question for those
who survived is, what`s next? Really one of the issues we talk about and we hear a lot of great deal in France. But we don`t know what link this man
has, if any, to the organization themselves.
We`ve seen a number of attacks in France of course last year especially where it is believed that it was more out of a sense of sympathy than any
real link to the organizations that some of these attackers took on -- tried to carry out their plans. Some more successfully than others over the
course of last year, Kristie. But, of course, the question of any links is one of the first that the authorities will be seeking to answer.
LU STOUT: OK. Melissa Bell, reporting. Thank you very much indeed for that, Melissa. Here is a recap of again what we know right now. There is
this ongoing hostage situation in the Southern France city of Trebes. At least one person has been confirmed killed. We still don`t know how many
people have been taken hostage inside the Super U supermarket.
Police say that they know the identity of the hostage taker. We don`t know the name just yet. The hostage taker claims to be a follower of ISIS.
French media report that one police officer has been taken hostage.
Again, our affiliate, the BFM TV, has been reporting on the incident saying that the gunman opened fire inside this Super U supermarket and that he
wants the Paris attacker, the attacker behind the Bataclan attack, Salah Abdeslam, released. He is the sole living suspect in the Paris attacks in
November 2015.
The Paris prosecutor`s office has opened a murder investigation as well as a terror investigation into the situation still unfolding in Trebes. The
French interior minister is en route heading to the scene. He his telling people to avoid the area and to stay tuned to any instructions --
additional instructions from authorities.
Now let`s bring back Max Foster. He joins us once again from CNN London. And, Max, earlier you were telling me about how you were recently briefed
by security officials from Britain, from Germany and France and they provided a warning, saying that even though ISIS has lost its caliphate, it
still very much poses a threat to Europe. Tell us more about what you learned.
FOSTER: Well, unfortunately, I speak too much about what the heads of intelligence services have said. Separately, I think what`s worrying that`s
coming out of this is this potential link with other attackers which does suggest that this network, this very high profile network in France,
wasn`t broken up in a way that the intelligence services perhaps hoped it had been.
There are still some remnants out there. And perhaps this latest attack is a response to the uptick in propaganda that we`ve seen online recently
which really sort of died off after the end of the caliphate, if you like. That`s one concern here. I`m sure intelligence services will be looking at
two separate things here.
A home-grown terrorist, someone perhaps that came from abroad or part of French society, perhaps responding to propaganda. But I know that one of
the other concerns, since the caliphate sort of collapsed, is that people did escape. Members of ISIS did escape to Turkey. But they didn`t have any
resources to leave Turkey.
They are looking very closely at the migration routes from Turkey and Africa into Europe and seeing if ISIS could slip in that way. So that`s
another thing that they might be looking at right now.
But I think they are very really thinly stretched, the intelligence services, if you consider that they`re trying to keep across all the
conversation and chatter online, but also trying to locate any potential sleeper cells which aren`t in Europe that might be in the Middle East or in
Turkey, for example.
So huge amount of pressure on the intelligence services right now. There will be concern, as there always is, that there might have been
intelligence on a potential attacker here and might have information on it and why they didn`t act on it. Melissa was speaking to that earlier on.
The simple answer to that is that they are watching so many people. It takes many officers to put surveillance on someone around the clock and
they just can`t afford to do that. We will wait to see what comes out of this. But I think in terms of the response we had here, it does suggest
there was some intelligence there.
LU STOUT: And from what we`re hearing so far, is this looking like an ISIS- linked attack or an ISIS-inspired attack?
[08:45:03] FOSTER: This is where we get this gray area, isn`t it? I`ve reported on many terror attacks around Europe. And, you know, when is an
ISIS fighter not an ISIS fighter? So originally, these were trained militants effectively who went out to Syria and trained and came back and
carried out military-style operations.
Then you have people that were picking up on propaganda and being groomed online, if you like, and turned into soldiers locally. And then you go to
third level of attack, which is from someone who literally in the last moment claims to be inspired by ISIS but doesn`t have any previous links.
But that does come from ISIS because ISIS very clearly put out this propaganda suggesting that you will be saved if you -- no matter what point
you claim allegiance to ISIS and you will become a martyr. So they are going to be looking at that.
That last type of attack of course is extremely dangerous because they may not be on the intelligence radar. From the local reports we`ve got here,
this person was on the intelligence radar which would suggest that there are some links there somehow.
LU STOUT: Max Foster, thank you very much indeed. Let`s go to Nick Paton Walsh in London. Nick, as Max was talking about just then, police know the
identity of the hostage taker. He was known to intelligence agencies and yet they were not able to act on that. And now we have the situation where
we have a live hostage event under way. What went wrong?
PATON WALSH: We don`t know any of this at this point, Kristie. Also we have to be very careful about exactly where we are. In a lot of these
situations, the initial identification information, identities left behind in vehicles, for example, turn out to be misleading.
So this stage, yes, we do appear, according to local media report, to have a link to Salah Abdeslam. And then the possibility by extension that maybe
this man knew Salah Abdeslam. You don`t frankly have to be a personal acquaintance to know who he is, particularly if you are, as some may
suggest, inspired by this ideology and aspiring Jihadi who wants to make a name for himself.
I have to say though this is not a normal ISIS operation. If this is connected to that particular group, they are not known for taking hostages
and making demands for the freedom of their individuals. I mean, they are normally about their destruction, the destruction of the civilians whose
lives they choose to take.
And so that sort of notion of chaos and brutality has always been at the heart of them. And I have to say I don`t really recall a standoff with a
political objective like this. It harks back to sort of an earlier era of terrorism to some degree. This stage, authorities are still desperately
trying to piece together what`s happening on the ground in that area.
The identity of that gunman which according to the BFM TV is known to them will be of great help in trying to establish the credibility of his
demands, if he is just throwing something out there, for example, to buy himself time or whether this is a genuine concern that they think possibly
they may have to address.
I have to say more broadly I cannot imagine the government of President Macron or the Belgian counterparts entertaining the idea of releasing Salah
Abdeslam, of course, because of the connection he had to one of the worst terrorist atrocities to hit France in decades, the Bataclan attacks.
This is a man who then fled to Brussels. May have had connections to attacks in Brussels as well. He is currently on trial in Belgium. Expected
soon to face trial in France as well. It`s highly unlikely that any demand made for his release will even half be entertained by French authorities.
Although this is still the early stage of the investigation, French authorities will be hoping that the name perhaps they have for the attacker
inside that supermarket leads them to perhaps know where any relatives may be, his recent history, anything that can form (INAUDIBLE) to his mental
state, whether or not there is sort of a trigger (INAUDIBLE) to cause him to choose these particularly violent conduct.
I say all of this with an enormous caveat that there could be a different explanation here and the it could well be that in fact the ISIS claims
we`re talking about here are a smoke screen for something else.
As this begins to take increased momentum and the hours tick by that looks increasingly unlikely frankly particularly given how the prime minister has
spoken quite clear, how they believe this to be a terrorist incident.
If we also trace back how the morning has progressed, there are suggestions that four CRS police officers, kind of like they are highly trained riot
police that the French deploy, may have come under attack, possibly been approached by a vehicle that meant them ill will. There may have been shots
fired that may have led to one police officer to be on the ground in Carcassonne, another town not far away from Trebes in France.
That incident does potentially have a link. There are reports, I say reports, suggesting that perhaps the car of the attacker in Carcassonne may
have been found in the supermarket car park in Trebes. This is all preliminary information. So I am guilty, I`m afraid of speculation when I
bring it to you.
[08:50:01] But if you are trying to piece together exactly how the morning progressed, there does appear to be some link to this incident in
Carcassonne, perhaps at this stage. And it does appear that the authorities, according to our affiliate BFM TV, have an idea who this man
is. That helps inform the (INAUDIBLE) of his demands, that one surviving gunman of the Bataclan attacks in Paris in November 2015 be released.
It does give them an idea potentially of his seriousness. This is a man who may have returned from the battlefield of Syria and Iraq. I have to say,
the fear has always been that the individuals who have seen the kind of brutality meted out by system what they used to call their caliphate in
Iraq and Syria are more significantly more dangerous individuals than you would, for example, expect to have from the home-grown terrorists who
watched these things on television and decided perhaps this is a kind of lifestyle that they`re envious of, twisted as that necessarily sounds.
So they`ll be trying to work out this person`s personal history. But put all that aside right now because I have to say we are looking at a kind of
incident which harks back to days before ISIS. A demand for a hostage to be -- the hostage taker using the kind of leverage of these hostages to try
and get another individual released, better known terrorist or accused terrorist at this point, Salah Abdeslam, and of course suggestions too that
this is a longer incident that`s moved on.
I don`t necessarily see how French police will want this standoff to persists particularly long. They are trained to intervene quickly. I
presume they are establishing (INAUDIBLE) so they have full control of the situation. They are of course I`m sure trying to work out precisely how
many hostages we are talking about.
At this point, we don`t have a reliable figure for that. This is a supermarket that when Friday morning you would not necessarily expect to
have been particularly full, but still that doesn`t necessarily bring any comfort to those currently inside it. We are hearing local media report
maybe two individuals wounded on the ground inside there.
Other suggestions from other officials that perhaps one person has been killed in this attack. It is all very preliminary. Other reports citing
it`s impossible to get to the scene of course to establish what level of casualties we`re talking about. There`s an awful lot of equipment that the
French special services can bring in to begin to assess exactly who may be standing where inside that building.
But I do think in this current ISIS era, hostage standoffs tend to be resolved more quickly than necessarily allowed to drag on, for example, for
a number of days. I recall the Moscow theater scene that went on three days back in 2002. It is a different era for that kind of standoff but it`s
interesting to have a political demand from a man claiming to be affiliated with ISIS.
That is not something we hear very often. Normally this is about dread, horror, and making as much of a bloody mess frankly as they can as quickly
as possible. We`ll have to say exactly what this report is demanding Salah Abdeslam be released is genuine because that would be interesting in this
kind of post ISIS caliphate era. Kristie?
LU STOUT: Yes. We are also awaiting the response from the French president, Emmanuel Macron, due to take to the podium and to address what`s
happening in Trebes any moment now. We`re waiting for that to begin. We will take it live, of course. This is being treated as a terror incident.
It is being described as ISIS-inspired.
You`ve talked about the threat that ISIS still poses despite the fall of the caliphate. Is ISIS much more -- is ISIS not only a virtual threat, an
ideological threat but also given the presence of foreign fighters in western countries like France, very much a physical threat even today?
PATON WALSH: It`s interesting you raised that because when I was recently in Northern Syria with American special forces there, one western official
did say that they had actually traced physical things and people that have come from the capital of the so-called caliphate Raqqa and been taken to
Europe to be involved in attacks.
Now we know, of course, the logistical assistance, too, but it was interesting to me to know that there were physical things that traveled
from there to Europe to spread havoc. Now that shows you their sort of, quote, height, what ISIS were able to do. We`ve known they`ve been involved
in messaging, potentially triggering people moving forward.
There has been not a lot of clarity as exactly who the sort of main orchestrators of the attacks in Europe have been. A lot of them frankly
have been killed by very carefully targeted U.S. coalition air strikes. But the broader issue now, of course, is because that caliphate has now been
crushed, enormously diminished, there are many hiding in the desert.
There was a deal at the end of the assault on Raqqa to let possibly hundreds of Syrian and foreign firefighters, many of them westerners, to
out. As said earlier, yes, some of them are looking to try and get back to quote, their homelands. A lot caught in limbo in Turkey.
The Turkish having initially sort of felt that the Jihad is building up there, Jihadist building up in 2013, 2014 or so might have been to some
degree of use, soon found ISIS in their midst was of serious problems, so they turned on them and made it harder for people to use the Turkish-Syrian
border.
[08:55:07] It`s to some extent closed but it is still possible for people who have the resources to try and get out. But it us then that route back
through all Turkey, Greece, through to the mainland Europe, that is where the focus is is intensely been.
And that is what has western intelligence agencies so deeply concerned that these returnees come back with expertise of urban warfare. Not much use in
Paris but explosives. And sort of that mentality where their desire is to commit more violent acts.
I have to say, looking exactly how this is going down at this point in Trebes, it does not look like we`re perhaps dealing with the most hardcore
of an ISIS member if indeed this attack is in fact linked to ISIS because of the nature of this standoff.
It`s been going on for a number of hours now. There`s a political demand involved. We have to see exactly how this plays out. And it`s not, at this
stage, a typical ISIS attack which are normally done just with chaos and bloodshed.
LU STOUT: Not a typical ISIS attack. Nick Paton Walsh, reporting live for us, thank you. Regis Le Sommier is the deputy editor-in-chief of Paris
Match. He spoke earlier to CNN about this unfolding situation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REGIS LE SOMMIER, DEPUTY EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, PARIS MATCH: What`s known is that this area has some members of -- former members of ISIS. People and
networks also that started from here and, as you know, (INAUDIBLE) may be the first major, you know, Jihad -- modern Jihadism was originally from
Toulouse, and so this area is known for that. It is hard to know.
However, from the information that I know, that I`ve got, attacking the police and seeking refuge in a supermarket, holding hostage, this is --
this typically would be what member of ISIS -- getting the call to fight. As al-Adnani, who is the propagandist in chief of ISIS, said, you will take
whatever you can around you. Don`t come to Middle East. Fight the infidels at home. That would be something very typical of a radicalized person who
wanted to all of a sudden, you know, seek action.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LU STOUT: Now let`s go back to Max Foster once again. Max, not a typical ISIS attack as we heard from Nick Paton Walsh earlier. Still so many
questions. We know according to our affiliate BFM TV, one hostage taker involved asking for the lone surviving attacker involved in the Bataclan
terror attack to be freed. Again, so many questions about what`s taking place, including whether or not that demand is credible.
FOSTER: Yes, it`s interesting. It will be interesting to know how he fits in with any sort of networks out there. I`m sure that`s what they`re trying
to get to the bottom of. Has this attacker come from outside the country? Have they come from within the country? Who inspired them? How were they
inspired?
They are going through all of their technology trying to track everything back. And then trying to work out whether or not there is wider threat
here. We`ve heard those reports of something else happening in that region. Does that link to this attacker or are there other attackers out there?
It`s very sensitive time for the security operation there. What I will say is that this is a very well known tourist area of France. Carcassonne has
an airport which lots of Europeans will be flying into over the course of the summer. They were booking their holidays to go there right now.
So if this was a terror attack, it would make sense for them to attack a supermarket which just wouldn`t be an attack on local people. It would be
an attack on tourists who go to that area as well.
So a strong message coming out from there and I suspect when we do hear from the president of France that have other leaders alongside him, this is
all very much to be seen as an attack on European values and European culture. Western liberalism, if you like.
So he`ll have a lot of support there. It will be interesting how he responds. Of course, the thing we don`t know at the moment is what
information is there. Is there a wider threat? How are they responding? And how should local people there be responding? How concern should all
Europeans be about this uptick in propaganda online and the potential for fighters leaving what was a caliphate and aiming at Europe?
LU STOUT: Max Foster, many thanks indeed for that, and thanks for the reminder that we are still awaiting that address from the French president,
Emmanuel Macron, to comment on the latest attack to take place on French soil.
Again, a recap of what we know. This ongoing hostage situation said to be ISIS-inspired taking place in the southern French city of Trebes. French
media reporting now at least two people have been injured.
[09:00:00] At least one person confirmed dead. The hostage taker was previously known to authorities. He claimed to be a follower of ISIS. And
French media report one police officer has been taken hostage. Our affiliate --
END
