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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield
Cliff Crashed Mystery, Body In Freezer. Aired 6-8p ET
Aired April 09, 2018 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:04] SEEMA IYER, GUEST HOST, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE: Good evening, everyone, I`m Seema Iyer, in for Ashleigh Banfield and this is "Crime and
Justice."
Tonight a California search team is looking for three missing children after their family drove off a cliff, but there`s been a big break in the
case and producer Bernice Man is covering it. Bernice, what`s the latest?
BERNICE MAN, CRIME AND JUSTICE PRODUCER: Seema, that search for three might actually be down to two, but whose body is it? The sheriff working
on the case will have the latest with us tonight.
IYER: Bernice, thank you for you being here on your television debut. And in Ohio, a woman might just be getting away with murder after her
boyfriend`s ex was found dismembered in a freezer. Michael Christian is on this case.
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, SENIOR FIELD PRODUCER, HLN: Seema, that woman is no longer facing murder charges. We`ll tell you why. And we`ll tell you what
the victim`s family thinks about it.
IYER: Oh sounds juicy. And Kyle Peltz is with me now on the search for a 5-year-old autistic boy in Tennessee.
KYLE PELTZ, CRIME AND JUSTICE PRODUCER: That is right. This boy`s own dad reported him missing just a few days ago, saying he disappeared from the
family home. Well, tonight that home is now a crime scene, and the dad is facing a lot of questions.
IYER: We`ll get to that story in a moment, but first to the California Coast, where a couple on vacation found a body in the surf just yards away
from where the spot where a family flew off a clip just two weeks ago. And investigators say the mom behind the wheel, she actually drove her family
to their deaths on purpose.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: CHP investigators say the crash was intentional, that Jennifer Hart stopped the car, 70 feet back from the edge of the cliff,
then drove straight off the edge, never hitting the brakes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: Search teams have spent the last two weeks searching for three missing kids, but tonight, it seems that number is down to two.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you get a chance, can you update on the status of the body, if they were able to get on shore or not?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: Investigators say a bystander on the beach actually brought the body up to shore. And though they won`t be able to identify it for a while,
they are saying it looks like a black female. I wanted to bring in now Evan Bush, a reporter for the Seattle Times, also Mendocino County Sheriff,
Tom Allman, and Medical Examiner Forensic pathologist, Dr. Michelle DuPre. And to you, Sheriff, to begin with, tell us about the breaking news about a
body discovered.
SHERIFF TOM ALLMAN, MENDOCINO COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Seema, good evening, and thank you, once again, for allowing us to get on and discuss
this, because we still have a lot of questions out there that we`re hoping the public is going to help us with. But yes, on Saturday a couple was
walking the beach and did see something that looked like a body. And another person was there, and pulled it out. And our deputy sheriffs who
were also Coroners responded to the area. And we have -- we`ve transported the victim to the mortuary where an autopsy will be taking place tomorrow
morning.
It is at -- it appears to be a young African-American female. And we are working with the family. And even though those were foster children, we do
know of relatives there. And so, we`re hopefully going to be able to get a DNA identification and be able to take care of this for closure for a lot
of families, but the search continues on. We have a helicopter in today. We`re expecting another rainstorm tomorrow.
And this weekend we had waves upwards of 15 feet. And when you have waves like that, you certainly are going to have things that are brought to the
beach and so forth. So we`re certainly keeping deputy sheriffs in the area today. And we`re trying to get as much information as possible so we can
locate the final two. That is with the assumption that this one body that we recovered Saturday is one of the victims of the tragedy.
IYER: Sheriff, now I understand that you`re also the Coroner. Is that correct?
ALLMAN: Yes, it is.
IYER: All right. So were you one of the first responders at the scene of the crash? Which was two weeks ago today.
ALLMAN: Yes, yes. I was there as a sheriff within an hour of it being dispatched. It`s on the coast, and I happen to be on the coast and I went
to the scene. I was there before the car was pulled up and as the victims were brought out of the ocean, yes.
IYER: Sheriff, set the scene for us. What did you see? What -- just lay it all out for us, tell us what you saw.
ALLMAN: All right. Well, you know, I`m going to say the first thing that I saw, we have volunteer firemen in that area. And we saw -- and I have
volunteer firefighters that were rappelling down the banks. They were doing everything that need to be done. But, of course, we saw the vehicle,
which was upside down at the ocean`s edge, which was at the bottom of the bluffs.
[18:05:09] IYER: What about the bodies, sheriff? The moms, Jennifer, Jean Hart, she was driving, where was Sarah Margaret Hart, the wife, and the
three kids who were found deceased, where were they with respect to the car and the crash?
ALLMAN: Right. As I reported last week, the two adults were still inside the vehicle, and the three juveniles were located outside of the vehicle.
IYER: And what was discovered inside the car? Was there any luggage? Was there any indication that this family was moving, or fleeing?
ALLMAN: No, it`s been -- it was noticeably missing the luggage, the possible camping equipment, you know, things that you would normally take
on vacation.
IYER: Well, we don`t know that this was a vacation, right, sheriff? We don`t know this was a vacation.
ALLMAN: I can`t -- I don`t know because, you know, things do get washed out of a vehicle. And maybe they`re in the ocean still. But obviously
sometimes those things wash up on shore, but we haven`t found many things that washed up on shore. So I think there are some missing personal items
that, you know, we`re hoping that they`re going to show up. Because, you know, Seema, as I said last week, this crime -- this crash scene has
quickly become a crime scene. But we`re trying to continue to just go down the road of discover any facts that we can, and at the end of this, allow
people who weren`t involved in the case to sit down with this information and make a rational conclusion. I`ve met with our district --
IYER: Sheriff?
ALLMAN: Yes.
IYER: Sheriff, were the car doors open or closed?
ALLMAN: The car doors were open. One car door had been torn off. I couldn`t see the other car doors.
IYER: OK. Sheriff, I want you to stand by. This is a bizarre case. There are five people dead, three people missing, all part of the same
family. Evan Bush, please describe to me what you know about this family dynamic, the two moms. What did they do for a living? When did they adopt
these children? What`s the -- what was the family makeup?
EVAN BUSH, REPORTER, THE SEATTLE TIMES: Sure. Thanks for having me, Seema. The two moms, one Sarah Hart, worked in retail. And you know, they
lived in three different states, Minnesota, Oregon and Washington.
IYER: Why did they live in three different states? Why were they moving around so much?
BUSH: Well, that is not entirely clear. We`re still trying to piece together exactly why they`d been moving so much. But there were abuse
allegations in all three states. And --
IYER: As to both the moms? Or just one?
BUSH: Well, for -- we don`t know the details of some of the allegations. In Minnesota, there were allegations against Sarah Hart, and she ended up
pleading in a case there. And then, you know, there have been other allegations in Oregon and Washington involving food deprivation and beating
as well.
IYER: Well, actually, there were several Hart family red flags, we have a full screen of this dating back to September 2008, 2010, and all the way up
to late in March. So there were several red flags here. Is that correct?
BUSH: That is what our reporting has shown.
IYER: Evan, I`m sorry, were the kids fostered, adopted, or a mix of both?
BUSH: So they came from Texas. And they were adopted. And Texas -- let`s see, in two different -- there`s two different sets of siblings. And so
first in 2006, and then in 2009 three siblings went to the Hart`s in 2006 and then three in 2009.
IYER: And were they all home schooled? Is that correct?
BUSH: So they were in schools in Minnesota. And then were pulled from schools and homeschooled. And Oregon and Washington, they were
homeschooled as well. They never registered for local school districts. And then there are -- you know, there`s paperwork that is required in
homeschooling situations to be filled out and turned into local authorities. And in neither state was any of that paperwork turned in by
the Hart parents.
IYER: OK, Evan, my understanding is when you have foster children, the state gives you money to take care of those foster children. Were these
moms getting money to take care of these kids? Because they were adopted, so they should not have.
[18:10:06] BUSH: Yes. So, that is not something that I`ve done reporting on specifically, but I know the San Antonio Express News had look into that
-- yes.
IYER: Evan, OK, Evan, I`m going to make you stand by. Sheriff, can you come back to us for a second and answer this question, were the kids -- I
thought that you said the children were foster children. Were they foster children? Were the moms getting money from the state to take care of these
kids?
ALLMAN: Well, it sounds kind of strange. Like, I will tell you that what I know is what I read in the paper yesterday that the state of Texas had paid
over a decade a total of $270,000 to the family for the foster care and coverage of the children. I read that in the local newspaper that had
received it from Social Services in Texas.
IYER: OK. So, Sheriff, I don`t understand this. This happened two weeks ago. And all I have here is one surveillance image from March 25th in the
morning. Jennifer Hart is seen on surveillance at Safeway. I am sure law enforcement has made some progress since then. So if you could describe to
us, do you have any other surveillance footage of any of these family members, perhaps at an ATM machine, getting money out?
ALLMAN: Well, as I said at the beginning, one of the things that we`re hoping is the public is going to tell us some of the stuff. You know, we
have very few electronic transactions from this family. So I`m assuming they paid cash for gasoline, because traveling 500 miles in that GMC Yukon,
you`re going to certainly have to stop for gas a couple times.
IYER: Did you check -- was there a large cash withdrawal prior to March 25th, or when they went missing?
ALLMAN: I`m not aware of one, Seema.
IYER: OK. And have you spoken to CPS? Do you know if perhaps -- because there was allegations that the neighbors called CPS to check on the family
at the end of March. So my question is, is it possible the family, the moms took the kids, and they were fleeing from CPS for some reason?
ALLMAN: Right. Well, there`s certainly a lot of possibilities, as I said last week, to Ashleigh, there`s a lot of questions that we are not going to
know the answer to. But as far as electronic transactions, we are also really going to find that information. We`ve served search warrants, and
we`re waiting for the information to come back. We just don`t have it yet, but as I said last week, because the suspect in this case is no longer
alive, there`s nothing that we`re going to hold back from the press. When we get the information, we`re going to release information, but if we don`t
have it, we`re not going to make it up. We want this to be a fact-driven investigation.
IYER: Absolutely, Sheriff. I completely understand that. And so do our viewers. We just share in your urgency to help your community find some
answers. The tip line has been consistently going up. I do also want to show the proximity of where this body was found to the crash site. It was
actually very close to the crash site. So hopefully you`ll find some answers there.
But, actually with respect to the body being found, let`s go to Dr. DuPre. Dr. DuPre, thank you for being on the program. Let me ask you this,
doctor, a body was found. This incident happened two weeks ago. What, if any, water damage could have affected being able to identify this body?
Because right now they`re not saying age, they don`t know anything, but maybe black female. So how significant is the water damage?
MICHELLE DUPRE M.D., MEDICAL EXAMINER AND FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, thanks for having me, first of all. And that is always a concern when we
have a case like this, but generally we can tell the basic information. And then once an autopsy is done we can actually confirm the identity
through DNA. Certainly that will probably be the case.
IYER: Can an autopsy of the bodies that were found, these five bodies, can that tell you if they died on impact, or some other way?
DUPRE: Yes. In fact, that is one of the reasons we do an autopsy is to determine the cause and manner of death. And by looking at the injuries
and the pattern of injuries, we can tell what caused the actual death of that person.
IYER: So, can you tell from the autopsy -- and please tell us, describe to us, can you tell if this accident or this driving off the cliff was on
purpose?
DUPRE: It`s really hard to say from examining the body. That is more of a scene investigation. What we can tell oftentimes is if seat belts were
worn or if they were not. We can also tell oftentimes the position of the bodies in the car from the injuries. Again, just depending on the state of
the body at the time.
IYER: Sheriff, last question to you. I believe that there were no seat belts. Correct? Nobody was wearing a seat belt?
[18:15:00] ALLMAN: From our autopsies, we have a very clear indication that nobody in the vehicle was wearing a seat belt.
IYER: We`ll leave it at that. Thank you so much, Evan Bush, Sheriff Tom Allman, and Dr. DuPre.
Outraged tonight, after a woman facing charges for her role in dismembering a romantic rival, cuts a deal and makes fail, leaving the victim`s family
horrified and livid.
And on some lighter news, you can listen to our show anytime you like. Just download our podcast on Apple Podcast, IHeartRadio, Stitcher, TuneIn,
or wherever you get your podcast for your "Crime and Justice" fix.
[18:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
IYER: Katrina Layton was in jail for a seriously disgusting crime, accused of helping her on again, off again boyfriend kill and dismember his ex
before moving her body to a freezer. When Shannon Graves` body was found last summer, or at least the parts of it, they`ve tracked down so far, her
ex-boyfriend was charged with aggravated murder and abuse of a corpse.
Arturo Novoa, goes on trial this August, and his new girlfriend is going to see him there, because even though she was also charged with murder, she is
now agreed to testify against him. It`s all part of the plea deal that means Katrina Layton isn`t facing murder charges, and tonight she is a free
woman. But the family of the woman she may have helped murder is not too happy about that, especially, because they claim they weren`t notified
about the plea deal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RONNIE DEPAUL, VICTIM`S FATHER: I would have never agreed to that. That is what we were just talking about in the courtroom, is that, why she did
that without notifying us.
DEBBIE DEPAUL, VICTIM`S SISTER: No, we didn`t know anything about it. We didn`t agree to anything. And she is basically free. She can do whatever
she wants to do. Just live her life. There are some guidelines, they said, but what is that after all of this? She was more involved than just
to let her be free?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: Let`s bring in Joe Gorman, crime reporter for the Vindicator and also with us, defense attorney Anahita Sedaghatfar. OK, Joe, this is
pretty disgusting. And my biggest question is why and when. So, if you could just go back to the beginning. Because from what I understand her
body was found in July of 2017. And it was only identified a few days later. But when did she die is the question?
JOE GORMAN, CRIME REPORTER, THE VINDICATOR: Well, I`m not sure about that. I looked at the Coroner`s reported today to see if it would shed any light
on that, because they never really did give a cause of death on her and in the Coroner`s report doesn`t say too much. It mentions how what she was --
how -- what they found was cut up. They found a foot, there were two or three different bags in there with different body parts. But the Coroner`s
ruling said that it would -- it ruled her death as homicide by unspecified means. It didn`t mention anything about a timeline or anything like that,
as far as I know.
IYER: OK, but Joe, OK, so let`s just look at the facts of the case, because I don`t think we need a medical examiner or a Coroner or anybody
with out of any common sense to tell us that it was a homicide, right?
GORMAN: Yes, I agree.
IYER: Because the body was cut up in a freezer. OK, so, I understand that it could have happened in February. So we have Shannon Graves, the
deceased, was living with Novoa, correct, they were living together.
GORMAN: Yes. Yes.
IYER: And they were boyfriend and girlfriend?
GORMAN: Yes.
IYER: And although Novoa, who`s also known as Anthony Gonzales, he has some alias, he says he had nothing to do with it. But then the keys to the
freezer were found in his pocket. Right?
GORMAN: Yes.
IYER: And that was when? That was back in August of 2017?
GORMAN: That would have been when the police had -- when the police found Shannon`s body, and they started to question him.
IYER: OK. So now, on top of all this, how do we bring this current girlfriend in, so the current girlfriend, co-defendant, took a plea,
Katrina Layton. She supposedly bought the freezer from Walmart. Is it Walmart?
GORMAN: I believe so.
IYER: Walmart is the epicenter of where people buy things to help them kill other people. So she buys the freezer from Walmart and has the -- I
guess there`s receipt of that from February 17. So there`s a very interesting theory of how Katrina Layton just assumed Shannon Graves` life
with -- the prosecutors in this case actually talked about. So let`s listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every two weeks.
DANA LANTZ, YOUNGSTOWN CITY PORSECUTOR: At the end of February, when Ms. Graves was missing, Ms. Layton move into Graves` apartment, drove Ms.
Graves` car, used a phone that was tied previously in the possession of Ms. Graves, and cared for Ms. Graves` dog. Basically assumed her life and her
belongings with Mr. Novoa.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[18:25:05] IYER: OK. So it is reasonable to suspect at this point that she may have been killed in February of 2017. Right?
GORMAN: Yes.
IYER: OK. But now what is the deal? Her family did not report this until June of 2017. What do we know about Shannon`s relationship with her
family?
GORMAN: Well, I know from what the police said and also from what I`ve read in various reports is that Shannon was not around a lot. She would
show up for holidays. At one point she had moved to Las Vegas without even telling anybody. When we talked to the family last week, this was the
first time since this news broke, that they had spoken to the media, by the way, they had said that -- the sister said she had met Novoa and Shannon.
The last time she saw Shannon was on Shannon`s birthday. And she kept an eye on Novoa, she thought something about him was strange, she never
thought any of this would happen.
But she thought something was funny about him. So then, they didn`t hear from her at Christmas, they didn`t hear from her at Easter and at some
point they were concerned, because -- she pretty much around so much, she was always show up on holidays. So after a while, after she missed a
couple holidays, they decided to make a police report. The father said that he had her phone, and he would call her phone and he would leave a
message, and then he would get a text back from that number. And whoever was texting him back would say, who is this? And he would say, it`s your
dad. And they would say you are not my dad. So that --
IYER: OK.
GORMAN: -- it took him a while, but they finally figure when she wasn`t showing up on holidays and with the phone, that they should filed a missing
person`s report. So that is what they did.
IYER: Oh, it is about time. So, OK, Novoa`s friend has the freezer, the friend thinks his name is Anthony Gonzales, and in that freezer there are
body parts. But there is one crucial body part that is missing. What do we think that body part is?
GORMAN: Well, the police have never told me that. I would imagine, if there`s something missing, and like I said I looked through the reports,
say it would probably be the head. Like I said, they had been tight lipped about a lot of information on this case. They don`t want a lot of stuff to
get out. So, if I had to hazard a guess that would be my guess that I have.
IYER: All right, Joe, I want you to stand by. It`s time to bring in Anahita Sedaghatfar, my legal sister from the different Mister. Hello, how
are you?
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hi, Seema, good to see you.
IYER: It`s good to have you on. So Anahita, listen, you`ve got a job cut out for you defending this guy, OK? So, let`s take a look at his criminal
record, it`s quite riddled with serious crimes, including drug crimes, weapons, arson. What -- well, let`s actually go to the plea deal? OK?
Do you think the family -- so, the family is complaining that they weren`t notified of the plea for the girlfriend Katrina Layton. What is the
significance of telling the family? Is that a prosecutor`s responsibility? Do they have to tell the family every step of the way?
SEDAGHATFAR: It is, Seema and first of all, you and I as attorneys both know that oftentimes prosecutors need to get the testimony of a co-
defendant in order to help convict the bigger defendant, the more responsible party. So that is what happened here. But the family is
saying that the prosecutors didn`t even let them know that they were contemplating giving this woman a plea agreement. And they didn`t get
their input.
And on top of that the prosecutors never even told the family once the plea was entered and this woman was released. And if that is true, Seema, that
is a violation of law, because the family of the victim, they`re considered victims under the law. And the prosecutors have an ethical duty to advise
them of all, you know, on goings in the case, they need to advise them of any significant court hearings that are taking place. So to the extent
they didn`t do that they violated their rights, the family`s rights here.
IYER: I juts -- you know, I`m not completely buying it. And I think that prosecutors have to tell the families generally what`s going on. But it`s
impossible every single step of the case to say, hey, I`m going to court in the morning or hey, I`m doing this. Of course there are plea negotiations
going on. Because, Anahita, right, they will have a stronger case against the defendant if they have the girlfriend who was there.
SEDAGHATFAR: Exactly.
IYER: Who were participating in the case? Now, let me ask you this. Katrina Layton is being investigated for possibly intimidating a witness in
Novoa`s upcoming trial. So what -- do you think that is perhaps just a mistake on her part, she had sent somebody a Facebook message with a thumbs
up sign. And how egregious does the action have to be to rise to the level of intimidating a witness.
SEDAGHATFAR: Well, I don`t know that that in and of itself is, you know, intimidating a witness. I didn`t know that she did that. To the extent
there was a court order in place saying that she have to have no contact with witnesses, and she violated that order, then she can be charged for
that.
I would suspect the prosecutors don`t want to bring that up because they want to be able to use her testimony against the ex-boyfriend in order to
get a conviction against him. And so I think the problem here is that really the state probably felt that without her testimony, they couldn`t
get a murder conviction against the boyfriend.
And so they had to resort to offering her a plea deal. And I know the family is upset, the community is outraged that this woman got released.
She is not even in prison anymore. She was once charged with murder. But you have to look at the big picture. The state needed her testimony.
SEEMA IYER, HOST, HLN: Right. But Anahita, that`s what we always tell our clients, stay off the Facebook, stay off the Twitter, right?
SEDAGHATFAR: That`s right.
IYER: OK. Thank you. Stay put. Joe Gorman (ph), thanks to you as well.
Let`s check on some stories making headline, shall we? A topless woman was arrested just minutes before opening statements in the Bill Cosby retrial.
Police say Nicole Rochelle jumped a barrier and entered a restricted area as Cosby was arriving for court.
Witnesses say she was yelling, women`s lives matter, and had many of Cosby`s accusers` names written on her body. Cosby is being retried on
three counts of sexual assault. He has pled not guilty. Opening statements were delayed for hours today as the court dealt with the juror issue and
only the prosecution got to go before the jury this afternoon. The defense is expected to start in the morning.
The Tennessee teacher at the center of a nationwide manhunt after kidnapping a 15-year-old student pleads guilty. Tad Cummins faces a minimum
of 10 years in prison on charges of obstruction of justice and taking a minor across state lines for sex. Sentencing is scheduled for September.
The wife of an Oklahoma state senator who admitted offering to pay a 17- year-old boy for sex is divorcing him. A judge agreed to terminate Ralph Shortey`s marriage and even allowed his wife to change her and their four
children`s name Shortey. Shortey is awaiting sentencing on child sex trafficking charges.
Heartbreak tonight after a 5-year-old boy with special needs disappears without a trace. Now his father is charged with killing him, despite the
fact the child is still missing. More "Crime and Justice" after the break.
[18:35:00} (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
IYER: It`s the call no parent wants to make. Dialing 911 to report your child is missing, especially when he`s just five years old and nonverbal.
But that`s the call Joseph Daniels place when little Joe seemed to go missing from home.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): My son is missing, we cannot find him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): OK, how old is your son, sir? OK, and you said he has autism.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): OK, how long ago was he last seen?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): Last night.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): OK, all right. And what`s his name?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): His name is Joe.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): What`s his last name?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): Daniels.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): What was he wearing last night?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): He was wearing pajamas.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): And do you know how he got out of the house?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): He must have unlocked the door.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): And he got out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): What`s your last name, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): Daniels.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): OK, what`s your first name?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): Joseph.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Do you know anywhere where he would go from your house?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): I do not know because we don`t know any of the names except for one neighbor. I do not know where he would have gone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): OK, I she nonverbal or is he verbal?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): He`s nonverbal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: The search for little Joe is all hands on deck for three days, everyone in this Tennessee town seemingly helping to find him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hope we find this boy here soon.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): Anything?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can only imagine what the mother and father is going through.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: Tonight that 5-year-old little boy still hasn`t been found. But the search teams are no longer looking for little Joe. So much as they`re
looking for his body. Because police say little Joe`s dad, that man who made that 911 call that you just heard, has admitted to killing his son and
dumping his body in a remote area where his remains have yet to be found.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was heartbroken, and I cried because he didn`t deserve it, didn`t deserve it at all. You`re not supposed to harm your
child. How can anybody do that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: This is a tough one. Let`s bring in People magazine senior writer Steve Helling.
[18:40:00] Also CNN law enforcement contributor and former FBI agent and investigator Steve Moore, as well as defense attorney Anahita Sedaghatfar
is still with us.
So, Steve Helling, let me start with you. Can you just please tell us -- first of all, tell us about the little boy. It was reported that he is
autistic and nonverbal.
STEVE HELLING, SENIOR WRITER, PEOPLE: Right, exactly. He`s autistic, he`s non-verbal. You know, from everything that we`ve heard, he was a very sweet
little boy. He just couldn`t communicate and he had, you know, severe autism. But, you know, obviously we`re talking about a helpless little
child here. And, you know, by all accounts, he went to school, he was in special education. By all accounts, he was a sweet little kid.
IYER: When did he go missing? And what has happened since then in terms of the search?
HELLING: Right. Well, he went missing sometime around April 3rd, April 4th. It`s a little bit sketchy because we don`t know exactly what happened
to him except for what his father has admitted to doing. You know, the search started immediately. You know, when a little nonverbal boy goes
missing, it`s all hands on deck.
So, of course, the idea, and you heard it with that 911 call, the thought was that he`d wandered out, that he was somewhere out there. And that`s
what everybody was looking for at first. And sadly that turns out not to be true.
IYER: What prompted the father to confess to this crime? Where did this confession come from? Was he being pressured by the police? Was he being
questioned by the police?
HELLING: Well, yes, obviously he was being questioned by police. They were going over his story again and again, which is what they do. You know,
whether or not he felt like the screws were being turned on him, hard to say, but he did admit, according to police, he did admit that he had beaten
this child with a closed fist and killed him. And so then suddenly we`re not looking for a live little boy who`s walking around. Sadly we`re looking
for a body.
IYER: Who else lived in the home? Were there siblings? I heard there were two siblings, a 3-year-old, an 8-year-old. And what about the mom? Was
there a mom in the house?
HELLING: There`s a mom in the picture. That`s a little bit confusing, unless you have other information that I don`t have. You know, but it
remains to be seen who was in the house when this little boy was being beaten to death. Who saw what? What did they see? And that`s all going to
come out. There`s a court hearing at the end of the week. We`ll probably hear a lot more then.
IYER: And can you confirm that this father has no criminal record?
HELLING: Yes. I actually did a search for him. I didn`t see any background that showed that he could be capable of anything like this. I did see a few
traffic infractions and things like that. But I didn`t see anything remotely like this.
IYER: And he worked at an I.T. company. Child Services has not been to the home, at least in three years. That was the search, at least that uncovers
that. So -- and does he have any history of mental illness? Is there anything about this father that would prompt him to do such a heinous act
on his own child?
HELLING: Right now, we don`t see it. And there`s no -- there was no indication. Nobody thought that this was a family in trouble. This was a
man headed down the wrong road. Nobody thought that. He held down a job. He was paying his bills. He was living the life that your neighbors live. And
so for this to happen is shocking.
IYER: OK. Let`s bring in former FBI agent Steve Moore. Steve, what would you do with the information you have at this point? Because -- and let`s be
clear so the viewers understand, the father is now being held in jail charged with criminal homicide, which is basically a catch-all.
It can range anything from first-degree murder to criminally negligent homicide. But what is the investigation that you would take at this point
with the information you have?
STEVE MOORE, FORMER FBI AGENT AND INVESTIGATOR: Well, right now what you`re trying to do is somewhere within that broad span of criminal
homicide. You`re trying to determine whether this was an intentional killing, a premeditated killing, an accidental killing with a premeditated
lie to cover it up.
There`s so much you need to turn up. And the critical piece of evidence to do that is going to be finding the little boy`s body because that`s going
to corroborate or disprove the father`s story. And that`s going to be important. Any confession you get you need to corroborate the
circumstances.
IYER: And let`s take a look at what the weather conditions are like at this time of year in Tennessee. And so, Steve Moore, what factors does that
play, the natural elements in looking for a child? And the urgency? This is still an urgent search for this little boy. And I want the viewers to
understand that.
[18:45:00] MOORE: Right. If -- you obviously have to continue thinking that, well, until you find the body, there`s a possibility that the child
is alive. But I`ve only seen that very rarely.
I think that right now what you`re looking at as far as the weather is that there`s been no rain, there`s been no snow, there`s been nothing to really
destroy evidence. So I think it bodes well for the investigators, if not for Daniels -- the father.
IYER: OK. Still more questions on this as the search continues for 5-year- old little Joe Daniels. How can his dad be charged with killing him when his body hasn`t even been found? We`ll discuss after the break.
[18:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
IYER: We`re still talking about the urgent search for a nonverbal 5-year- old boy in Tennessee whose own father reported him missing, sparking a massive sweep, before police say he admitted to killing him and hiding his
body.
Now it`s just a matter of finding little Joe`s remains and finding him some sense of justice. Still with me, People magazine senior writer Steve
Helling, CNN law enforcement contributor Steve Moore, and defense attorney Anahita Sedaghatfar.
Anahita, I want to go to you on this because the question is, you have a confession, but you don`t have a body. So, does the law even allow for us
to arrest this guy at this point, because he is in custody.
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes. He`s in custody. He is being charged with the killing of his son. But, Seema, they need to now decide whether or not this killing
was an intentional, premeditated, plotted killing at which point they can charge him with first-degree murder, or was this something lesser.
Was this a heat of passion? Was the father under stress? Did he just snap and kill his child? At this point, it would be second-degree murder or even
a manslaughter charge. But remember, they can`t just convict based upon a confession.
IYER: Right.
SEDAGHATFAR: They certainly need to get corroboration for that. And they need to hopefully find the body to get that corroboration, or some other
independent evidence supporting the confession.
IYER: Great point, Anahita, because I think that`s what people are wondering. How can you put someone in jail for confessing to something when
you don`t even have the body of evidence, the physical body? Without being gruesome about it --
SEDAGHATFAR: Right.
IYER: -- but that`s the truth. So he can`t be convicted. Let me ask you this. Could a prosecutor present this case to a grand jury? Could they get
an indictment on this without a body?
SEDAGHATFAR: Absolutely. If the prosecution decides to take this to a grand jury, they can do that. Remember, the standard to get an indictment
in a grand jury is very low. It`s not the same standard that you have to get in a criminal case which is beyond a reasonable doubt and that`s what
would have to proven at trial.
But I would suspect that they`re not going to move forward with that, they are going to wait to see if they can find the body, perhaps talk to his
wife, what did she know? Did she participate in the killing? Did she help with the cover-up? Did she help dispose of the body?
I think it doesn`t hurt to allow the police to do a little bit more digging, a little bit more investigation. Hopefully, they`ll be able to
find the body and get some evidence from that. If not, get some other corroboration before they go forward with a specific charge, even if it
goes before a grand jury.
IYER: Well, you`re asking good questions, because a lot of us are wondering about the mom, and we don`t even know that. But also, aren`t we
all wondering about motive? So Anahita, if you were representing this guy, what type of investigation would you do to perhaps find out why he would
even confess to this? For instance, would you get a mental health examination of him? What other steps would you take?
SEDAGHATFAR: You`re so on point. I would definitely do that first and foremost, is mental health an issue? Also, how was the confession given?
Was it a coerced confession? Was he read his rights? Did he waive those rights? All of those things come into play.
I would suspect if his defense attorneys believe that somehow the confession was coerced or was illegally obtained in any way, they would
seek to toss that out in the trial of this case.
IYER: You`re so good, Anahita.
SEDAGHATFAR: Thank you.
IYER: And so are you, Steve Helling and Steve Moore. Thank you all for staying with me on this story. So important. And I hope that the viewers
will hear our urgency in finding this little boy`s remains. Thank you.
We are all used to smiling for selfies, unless you hate selfies like I do. But mugging for a mug shot? Really? One more thing straight ahead.
[18:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
IYER: We got one more thing for you tonight. Getting arrested is no laughing matter. But try telling that to Kenneth Evans who definitely put
the mug into his mug shots.
(LAUGHTER)
IYER: Cops say Evans was booked after he hit his girlfriend with a pizza as she was driving him home. Once there, he proceeded to trash the house,
flipping a couch and throwing things. Cops say he was obviously intoxicated and booked him. It`s doubtful he was smiling like that once he slept it all
off.
[19:00:03] Well, something to smile about, the next hour of "Crime and Justice" starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know the status of the bodies we were able to get it on shore.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The body pulled from the water was that after an African-American female.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does she pulled end up at the bottom of a 100-foot cliff.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does that change the dynamic of what you have now called a crime, that they were all unbelted?
Claims the mothers were abusing the children.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was inspired by them. They gave me hope.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gives more to the motivation of would everybody perish in a vehicle going off the cliff.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators say the crash was intentional.
No one knew what happened to Shannon Graves.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Arturo Nuevo (ph) and another man carried the freezer and placed it in his basement.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) faces charges of aggravated murder and abuse of a court.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Girlfriend who is in the freezer. This new girlfriend assumed her life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And her belongings.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- is now out of jail.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would have never agreed to that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Daniels is only five.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s a nightmare.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Turn of events in the investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s a really good kid.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A precious little boy has autism and doesn`t speak.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It will tear you up to know your kid`s out here cold and hungry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The child`s father intentionally killed his son.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I thought maybe somebody abducted him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then hid his son`s body.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SEEMA IYER, HLN HOST: Good evening, everyone. I`m Seema Iyer in for Ashleigh Banfield. Welcome to the second hour of CRIME AND JUSTICE.
We begin tonight with the chilling discovers on a California beach where a couple on vacation spotted a body in the water just yards away from the
cliff where the family had plunged to their deaths. And investigators have told us they may have driven off the cliff on purpose.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: CHP investigators say the crash was intentional, that Jennifer Hart stopped the car 70 feet back from the edge of the cliff, then
drove straight off the edge never hitting the brakes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: It`s been two weeks since that crash, and two weeks of searching for three of the six Hart kids. But tonight, that number may be down to two.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you get a chance, can you give the status of the body, if they were able to get it on shore or not?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: Investigators say it was a bystander on the beach who pulled that body to shore. And they won`t be able to identify it for a while. But
they are saying it looks like a black female.
Let`s bring in Nina Shapiro, a reporter for the "Seattle Times." Also Mendocino County sheriff, Thomas Allman, as well as medical examiner and
forensic pathologist, Dr. Michelle DuPre.
Sheriff, I would like to start with you, sir. I understand you are also the coroner. And you were part of the team that discovered body?
SHERIFF THOMAS ALLMAN, MENDOCINO COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE (on the phone): Well, I was not part of the team that discovered the body. I was at the
original scene two weeks ago today. One of my deputies was a deputy coroner as well as deputy sheriff. He was one of the first law enforcement
officers there and he was the one who began the investigation of the recovered body.
IYER: And we can see from the map we have that the female body was found somewhat close to the crash site. Now, sir, as the coroner, you were there
when the accident first happened. Tell us what you observed, set the scene for us, please.
ALLMAN: Well, no one was there when it happened. That`s one of the problems. This was an unwitnessed accident. So we specifically do not
know the time and date of the accident. We certainly know when it was reported and when our units responded.
But when I was there, I certainly saw the volunteer fireman, and they were recovering, working with a tow truck to recover the vehicle. We still had
two bodies in it at the bottom of the 100 foot cliff and we were working with the highway patrol and their incredibly talented helicopter pilots
working to recover the bodies from the ocean.
IYER: Was anybody wearing seat belts in the car?
ALLMAN: We have no evidence and no indication whatsoever, and I`m speaking post-autopsy of those five bodies that were recovered. There`s no evidence
that seat belts were being worn.
IYER: So it looks like nobody had a seat belt on?
ALLMAN: Correct.
IYER: OK. Sheriff, I`m going to ask you to just stand by, and let`s bring in Nina Shapiro.
Nina, I know that you can give us some background on this family. This is a highly unusual case. You have a family of eight people. We don`t know
the motive for this. We don`t know why this happened. And the moms, Jennifer and Sarah, how long have they been together? What type of work do
they do? And are these kids fostered or adopted? Just set -- tell us what the family was like.
[19:05:15] NINA SHAPIRO, REPORTER, THE SEATTLE TIMES (on the phone): Sure. So it seems that they -- the couple, Jen and Sarah met in college.
They were both from South Dakota. And they went to college there. They both studied education. A couple years later they were living in a small
town in Minnesota. And that`s when they started to adopt children from Texas. So Texas does out of state adoptions. And this couple adopted
first one set of siblings in 2006. And then another set of siblings in 2009.
Jen stayed home and Sarah was the one who worked consistently. Sarah would work at department stores, both in Minnesota, and then in Oregon and
Washington when the couple moved there. And they were very much a couple of contradiction. So on the one hand they were deeply immersed in an
alternative culture around Portland and they attended a lot of music festivals and rallies and went to an organic farm. But on the other hand
they seemed to live a deliberately private life and kept neighbors and the outside world at a distance.
IYER: Well, I`m glad you bring that up. So, number one, you mentioned Jen stayed home. Does she homeschool these kids?
SHAPIRO: She did for part of the time. So in Minnesota the kids were in public schools, at least for a while. And then after -- there were two
instances of abuse allegations in Minnesota.
IYER: Right, tell us about that.
SHAPIRO: And -- right, OK. Well, the first one was in 2008 and one of the children reported that Jen had hit the child with a belt. That case ended
up being closed. The parents had said that the child had fallen down the stairs a few days prior. And then you have in 2010 one of the children,
one of the little girls, had told a teacher that she had owies (ph) on her tummy and her back, and that mom had hit her. And an investigation was
done. And Sarah ended up pleading guilty to a domestic assault charge.
IYER: Now, that was in Minnesota. Now, I want to bring you to Washington. Because you said they were very private as a couple and as a family. In
mid-2017 wash neighbors said one of the hart girls came to their home at 1:30 a.m. asking for help, claiming she`d been mistreated by the parents.
And we can put all this information up and this history of these red flags.
In March of 2018 Washington neighbors said Devonte was asking for food once a day, sometimes up to three times a day. The end of March, neighbors
called CPS to check on the hart family. Authorities conducted a welfare check. So was CPS involved in this family`s life? Is it possible that
Jennifer and Sarah were taking the kids and fleeing from cps?
SHAPIRO: Well, I think that`s entirely possible. The family left soon after CPS in Washington came to visit the home. And we have a neighbor
saying that Jen was actually inside the home when the CPS worker knocked on the door. So I think that`s entirely possible.
You have to remember that there -- these social service agencies were in different states that got involved. So they hadn`t lived in Washington all
that long. Some of the investigations were in different places. And there was also a separate complaint that happened in Oregon which is where they
lived before they came to Washington. But they ended up moving after a lot of these different allegations happened. They moved to different states.
IYER: OK. I want to go back to you, sheriff. And, listen, we have surveillance footage. And this seems to be all we have, surveillance
footage from a Safeway, March 25th. And we can see Jennifer Hart seen there. Do you have any other surveillance footage that can show where --
what has happened prior to the crash? Where they were? Did they take out money? Were they buying items? Were they calling people, visiting people?
Anything?
[19:10:00] ALLMAN: We have nothing, Seema. The fact that they had to get gas at least twice to come down here, you know, you have six kids. You
know they have to get out and go to the restroom and stretch their legs and maybe run in place. This family would have been noticed with the two moms
and the six kids. They would have been noticed by someone.
We offer our tip line, our anonymous tip line and dispatch number. And CNN has put it on the screen a hundred times. And still, we have very few tips
from the public that are giving us good information of where we can go to get footage from gas stations, from a rest stop, from a grocery store. We
have search warrants, and I`m hoping this week we`ll get the results of our search warrants for phone tracking, text messaging, any other credit card
information we`re looking for so we can move on to the next stage.
The family members, even though they were foster kids and adopted, these kids had grandparents and have family members, blood relatives that live
throughout our nation. These are the next of kin we are working with to get their remains to them so this family can have closure. We want to get
the answers as much as anybody else.
ALLMAN: I know you do, sheriff, and we definitely want to help you. Thank you for bringing up the grandparents. That is my next question. What have
you learned from the grandparents? I`m assuming you are speaking about Jennifer and Sarah`s parents?
We`ve talked to the next of kin. They`re going through a grieving process. It wouldn`t be polite for me to disclose conversations other than to say we
have made the necessary legal notification of the passing of their relatives. But other conversations, you know, we are working with them
through the next stage of this grieving and getting remains to them and so forth.
You know, there -- even if this is a crime, and certainly at this point. That`s my personal belief it is. There`s still the fact that up to eight
people have perished. And there`s grieving, and there`s emotions going. And we are not going to ever go to court to find out, you know, if a jury
is going to say guilty or innocent. So we`re trying to just allow this to be a very fact driven investigation where everybody is going to be told the
facts as soon as we get them.
IYER: But, sheriff, when you went to get that search warrant, you did give the judge enough information to say we are trying to look for phone
records, and credit card charges, and looking at the home computers, all of that information is -- are things that you`re trying to look at. Correct?
ALLMAN: Well, some of these search warrants were served by law enforcement agencies in other states, you know, because they lived in Washington. They
worked in Oregon, and we`re in California. So our investigation does not include the computers and so forth. But the cell phones, yes, it does, ask
then, of course, any other credit cards and phone records we`re looking for.
IYER: Have you been in touch with cps? Because the neighbors, they called cps at the end of march. So this is all timewise right Mt. Same
proximity, is cps helping you in this investigation?
ALLMAN: We have been in touch with the Clark county sheriff`s office in Washington, and their agency is assisting us greatly in this, the type of
investigation that you`re alluding to.
IYER: Sheriff, thank you.
I want to bring in Dr. Dupree. Doctor, now, the autopsies, I believe they are scheduled for tomorrow, Tuesday. Can you tell us, will an autopsy of
the body -- we`re just talking about the five bodies that were found initially. Will those autopsies be able to tell us if those people died on
impact?
DR. MICHELLE DUPRE, PATHOLOGIST: In most cases they can tell that. They can tell by the type of injury, and we know by the type of injury what kind
of damage that might do. So, yes, we would probably be able to tell that. In addition, the interesting thing is we will also be able to tell if there
was chronic abuse or evidence of chronic abuse for the children.
IYER: Right. That is also another great point. Thank you, Dr. DuPre.
Now, let me ask you this, can an autopsy tell us if this car was driven off the cliff on purpose?
DUPREE: Not really. That`s more of a scene investigation. However, again, by the injuries that are sustained, we can tell whether they were
sustained in the accident. And sometimes car accidents are used to hide other injuries, maybe a different cause of death, a shooting, a stabbing or
something of that nature can often be covered up, supposedly, by a car accident. But we can usually discover that.
IYER: Last question, Dr. Dupree, the female body that was found, they are saying possibly a black female. They can`t tell us the age. Is it because
the body may have been missing for two weeks, and there`s water damage? Would the water have perhaps perished the ability to find out the age of
that body?
[19:15:09] DUPREE: Upon initial examination, perhaps. But once we do the autopsy, oftentimes from various factors, even just the skeletal remains,
and I`m sure we probably have a little bit more than that, but we can tell the age of the person. And certainly in this case we would identify that
person by DNA.
IYER: Thank you to all my guests on this story.
Outrage tonight after a woman facing charges for her role in dismembering a romantic rival cuts a deal and makes bail, leaving the victim`s family
horrified and livid.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:20:30] IYER: Katrina Layton was in jail for a seriously disgusting crime. Accused of helping her on again off again boyfriend accused of
dismembering his ex before moving her body to a freezer. When Shannon Graves body was found last summer, or at least the parts of it, they have
tracked down so far, her boyfriend was charged with aggravated murder and abuse of a corpse.
Arturo Navoa goes on trial this August and his new girlfriend is going to see him there because even though she was also charged with murder, she is
now agreed to testify against him. It`s all part of a plea deal that means Katrina Layton isn`t facing murder charges. And tonight, she is a free
woman. But the family of the woman she may have helped murder is not too happy about that, especially because they claim they weren`t notified about
the plea deal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RONNIE DEPAUL, VICTIM`S FATHER: I would have never agreed to that. That`s what we were just talking about in the courtroom, just why she did that
without notifying us.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, we didn`t know anything about it. We didn`t agree to anything. She`s basically free. She can do whatever she wants to
do, just live her life. There are some guidelines, they said, but what is that after all of this? She was more involved than just to let her be
free.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: Let`s bring in Joe Gorman, crime reporter for the vindicate for, and also with us, defense attorney Anahita Sedaghaftar.
OK, Joe. This is pretty disgusting. And my biggest is why and when? So if you could just go back to the beginning because from what I understand,
her body was found in July of 2017. And it was only identified a few days later, but when did she die is the question?
JOE GORMAN, CRIME REPORTER, THE VINDICATOR (on the phone): Well, I`m not sure about that. I looked at the coroner`s reported today to see if it
would shed any light on that. They never really did give a cause of death for her. And that coroner`s report doesn`t say too much. It mentions how
she was -- how -- what they found was cut up, they found a foot. There were two or three different bags in there with different body parts. But
the coroner`s ruling said that it was - it ruled her death as homicide by unspecified means. It didn`t mention anything about the timeline or
anything like that.
IYER: OK. But Joe, OK, let`s look at the facts of the case. Because I don`t think we need a medical examiner or a coroner or anybody without of
any common sense to tell us it was a homicide, right, because the girl`s body was cutoff in a freezer?
GORMAN: Yes, I agree.
IYER: OK, so I understand that it could have happened in February. So we have Shannon Graves, the deceased, was living with Novoa, correct, they
were living together?
GORMAN: Yes.
IYER: And they were boyfriend and girlfriend?
GORMAN: Yes.
IYER: And although Novoa, who is also known as Anthony Gonzales, he has some alias, he says he had nothing to do with it, but then the keys to the
freezer were found in his pocket. Right?
GORMAN: Yes.
IYER: And that was when? That was back in August of 2017?
GORMAN: That would have been when the police had -- when the police found Shannon`s body, and they started to question him.
IYER: OK. So now, on top of all this, how do we bring this current girlfriend in? So the current girlfriend, co-defendant, took a plea,
Katrina Layton, she supposedly bought the freezer from Walmart? Is it Walmart?
GORMAN: I believe so.
IYER: So she buys the freezer from Walmart and has the -- I guess there`s a receipt of that from February 2017. So there`s a very interesting theory
of how Katrina Layton just assumed Shannon Graves` life with -- the prosecutors in this case actually talked about. So let`s listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every two weeks.
DARA LANTZ, YOUNGSTOWN CITY PROSECUTOR: At the end of February, when Ms. Graves was missing, Ms. Layton moved into Ms. Graves` apartment, drove Ms.
Graves` car, used a phone that was previously in the possession of Ms. Graves, and cared for Ms. Graves` dog. Basically assumed her life and her
belongings with Mr. Novoa.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: OK. So it is reasonable to suspect at this point that she may have been killed in February of 2017. Right?
[19:25:07] GORMAN: Yes.
IYER: OK. But now what is the deal? Her family did not report this until June of 2017. What do we know about Shannon`s relationship with her
family?
GORMAN: Well, I know from what the police had said, and also from what I have read in various reports is that Shannon was not around a lot. She
would show up for holidays, at one point she had moved to Las Vegas without even telling anybody. When we talked to the family last week, which was
the first time since this news broke that they had spoken to the media right away, they had said that the sister said she had met Novoa and
Shannon, the last time she saw Shannon was on Shannon`s birthday. And she kept an eye on Novoa. She said something about him as strange. He never
thought of any of this would happen. And she thought was funny about him.
So then they didn`t hear from her at Christmas. They didn`t hear from her at Easter. And at some point when they were concerned because she -- even
though she wasn`t around a lot, she would always show up on holidays. So after a while, after she missed a couple holidays, they decided to make a
police report. The father said that he had her phone and he would call her phone and he would leave a message and then he would get a text back from
that number and whoever was texting him back would say "who is this," and he would say it`s your dad, and they would say you`re not my dad. So that
took a while but they finally figure when she wasn`t showing up for the holidays and with the phone, that they should file a missing persons
report. So that`s what they did.
IYER: About time. So, OK, Novoa`s friend has the freezer. The friend thinks his name is Anthony Gonzales. And in that freezer, there are body
parts. But there is one crucial body part that is missing. What do we think that body part is?
GORMAN: Well, the police have never told me that. I would imagine if there`s something missing, and like I said I looked in the report, say it
would probably be the head. But like I said, they have been tight lipped about a lot of different information on this case because they don`t want a
lot of stuff to get out. So if I had to hazard a guess, that would be the guess that I have.
IYER: All right. Joe, I want you to stand by. It`s time to bring in Anahita, my legal sister from a different mister. Hello, how are you?
ANAHITA SEDAGHAFTAR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hi, Seema, good to see you.
IYER: It is good to have you on.
So Anahita, listen. You have got a job cut out for you defending this guy, OK?
SEDAGHAFTAR: Right.
IYER: So let`s take a look at his criminal record. It`s quite riddled with serious crimes, including drug crimes, weapons, arson. What -- well,
let`s actually go to the plea deal, OK? Do you think the family -- so the family`s complaining that they weren`t notified of the plea for the
girlfriend Katrina Layton. What is the significance of telling the family? Is that a prosecutor`s responsibility? Do they have to tell the family
every step of the way?
SEDAGHAFTAR: It is, Seema. And first of all, you and I as attorneys both know that oftentimes prosecutors need to get the testimony of a co-
defendant in order to help convict the bigger defendant, the more responsible party. So that`s what happened here. But the family is saying
that the prosecutors didn`t even let them know that they were contemplating giving this woman a plea agreement. And they didn`t get their input. And
on top of that the prosecutors never even told the family once the plea was entered and this woman was released.
And if that is true, Seema, that is a violation of law because the family of the victim, they are considered victims under the law. And the
prosecutors have an ethical duty to advise them of all, you know, on-goings in the case, they need to advise them of any significant court hearings
that are taking place. To the extent they didn`t do that they violated their rights, the family`s rights here.
IYER: I just, and you know, I`m not completely buying it. And I think that prosecutors have to tell the families generally what`s going on. But
it`s impossible every single step of the case to say, hey, I`m going to court in the morning, or, hey, I`m doing this, and, of course there are
plea negotiations going on. Because, Anahita, right, they will have a stronger case against a defendant if they have the girlfriend who was
there.
SEDAGHAFTAR: Exactly.
IYER: Who was participating in the case.
SEDAGHAFTAR: Exactly.
IYER: Now, let me ask you this. Katrina Layton is being investigated for possibly intimidating a witness in Novoa`s upcoming trial. So what -- do
you think that is perhaps just a mistake on her part? She had sent somebody a Facebook message with a thumbs up sign. And how egregious does
the action have to be to rise to the level of intimidating a witness?
SEDAGHAFTAR: Well, I don`t know that that in and of itself is, you know, intimidating a witness. I didn`t know that she did that. To the extent
there was a court order in place saying that she is to have no contact with witnesses, and she violated that order, then she can be charged for that.
[19:30:06] I would suspect the prosecutors don`t want to bring that up because they want to be able to use her testimony against the ex-boyfriend
in order to get a conviction against him. And so, I think that the problem here is that really the state probably felt that without her testimony they
couldn`t get a murder conviction against the boyfriend, and so they had to resort to offering her a plea deal, and I know the family is upset, the
community is outraged that this woman got released. She`s not even in prison anymore and she was once charged with murder. But you have to look
at the big picture and the state needed her testimony.
IYER: Right and -- but Anahita, that`s what we always tell our clients, stay off the Facebook, stay off the Twitter.
SEDAGHATFAR: That`s right.
IYER: Right? OK.
SEDAGHATFAR: That`s right.
IYER: Thank you, stay put. Joe Gorman, thanks to you as well. Let`s check on some other stories making headlines, shall we?
A topless woman was arrested just minutes before opening statements in the Bill Cosby retrial. Police say Nicolle Rochelle jumped a barrier and
entered a restricted area as Cosby was arriving for court. Witnesses say she was yelling "women`s lives matter," and had many of Cosby`s accusers`
names written on her body. Cosby is being retried on three counts of sexual assault. He has pled not guilty. Opening statements were delayed
for hours today as the court dealt with the juror issue, and only the prosecution got to go before the jury this afternoon. The defense is
expected to start in the morning.
The Tennessee teacher at the center of a nationwide manhunt after kidnapping a 15-year-old student pleads guilty. Tad Cummins faces a
minimum of 10 years in prison on charges of obstruction of justice and taking a minor across state lines for sex. Sentencing is scheduled for
September.
And the wife of an Oklahoma state senator who admitted offering to pay a 17-year-old boy for sex is divorcing him. A judge agreed to terminate
Ralph Shortey`s marriage and even allowed his wife to change her and their four children`s names Shortey. Shortey is awaiting sentencing on child sex
trafficking charges.
And heartbreak tonight, after a 5-year-old boy with special needs disappears without a trace. Now, his father is charged with killing him,
despite the fact the child is still missing. More CRIME & JUSTICE after the break.
[19:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
IYER: It`s the call no parent wants to make, dialing 911 to report your child is missing, especially when he`s just five years old and nonverbal.
But that`s the call Joseph Daniels placed when little Joe seemed to go missing from home.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSEPH DANIELS: My son (INAUDIBLE) and we cannot find him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, how old is your son, sir? OK, and you said he has autism?
DANIELS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. How long ago was he last seen?
DANIELS: Last night.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, all right. And what`s his name?
DANIELS: His name is Joe.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s his last name?
DANIELS: Daniels.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What was he wearing last night?
DANIELS: He was wearing pajamas.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And do you know how he got out of the house?
DANIELS: He must have unlocked the door.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
DANIELS: And he got out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s your last name, sir?
DANIELS: Daniels.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, what`s your first name?
DANIELS: Joseph.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know anywhere where he would go from your house?
DANIELS: I do not know because we don`t know (INAUDIBLE) except for one neighbor. So, I do not know where he would`ve gone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, is he non-verbal or is he verbal?
DANIELS: He`s non-verbal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: The search for little Joe is all hands on deck for three days, everyone in this Tennessee town seemingly helping to find him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hope we find this boy here soon.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anything?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can only imagine what the mother and father is going through.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: Tonight, that 5-year-old little boy still hasn`t been found. But the search teams are no longer looking for little Joe so much as they`re
looking for his body. Because police say little Joe`s dad, that man who made that 911 call that you just heard, has admitted to killing his son and
dumping his body in a remote area where his remains have yet to be found.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was heartbroken, and I cried because he didn`t deserve it, didn`t deserve it at all. You`re not supposed to harm your
child. How can anybody do that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
IYER: This is a tough one. Let`s bring in PEOPLE Magazine Senior Writer Steve Helling, also CNN Law Enforcement Contributor and former FBI Agent
and Investigator Steve Moore, as well as Defense Attorney Anahita Sedaghatfar is still with us.
[19:40:04] So, Steve Helling, let me start with you. Can you just please tell us -- first of all tell us about the little boy. It was reported that
he is autistic and non-verbal.
STEVE HELLING, SENIOR WRITER, PEOPLE: Right, exactly. He`s autistic, he`s non-verbal, and, you know, from everything that we`ve heard, he was a very
sweet little boy. He just couldn`t communicate and he had, you know, severe autism. But, you know, obviously, we`re talking about a helpless
little child here. And you know, by all accounts, you know, he went to school, he was in special education, and by all accounts, he was a sweet
little kid.
IYER: When did he go missing and what has happened since then in terms of the search?
HELLING: Right. Well, he went missing sometime around April 3rd, April 4th, you know, it`s a little bit sketchy because we don`t know exactly what
happened to him except for what his father has admitted to doing. You know, and then, the search started immediately. You know, when a little
non-verbal boy goes missing, it`s all hands on deck. So, of course, the idea, and you heard it with that 911 call, the thought was that he`d
wandered out, that he was somewhere out there. And that`s what everybody was looking for at first, and sadly, that turns out not to be true.
IYER: What prompted the father to confess to this crime? Where did this confession come from? Was he being pressured by the police, was he being
questioned by the police?
HELLING: Well, yes, obviously, he was being questioned by police. They were -- they were going over his story again and again, which is what they
do. You know, whether or not he felt like the screws were being turned on him, hard to say, but he did admit -- according to police, he did admit
that he had beaten this child with a closed fist and killed him. And so -- then suddenly, we`re not looking for a live little boy who`s walking
around. Sadly, we`re looking for a body.
IYER: Who else lived in the home? Were there siblings? I heard there were 2 siblings, a 3-year-old and 8-year-old, and what about the mom? Was
there a mom in the house?
HELLING: There`s a mom in the picture. That`s a little bit confusing, unless you have other information that I don`t have. You know, but it
remains to be seen who was in the house when this little boy was being beaten to death, who saw what, what did they see, and that`s all going to
come out. There`s a court hearing at the end of the week. We`ll probably hear a lot more then.
IYER: And can you confirm that this father has no criminal record?
HELLING: Yes. I actually did a search for him and I didn`t see any background that showed that he could be capable of anything like this. I
did see a few traffic infractions and things like that but I didn`t see anything remotely like this.
IYER: And he worked at an I.T. company, there had -- child services has not been to the home, at least in three years, that was the search. At
least that uncovers that. So -- and does he have any history of mental illness? Is there anything about this father that would prompt him to do
such a heinous act on his own child?
HELLING: Right now, we don`t see it. And there`s no -- there was no indication. Nobody thought that this was a family in trouble, this was a
man headed down the wrong road. Nobody`s thought that. He held down a job, he was paying his bills, he was living the life that your neighbors
live, and so, for this to happen is shocking.
IYER: OK. Let`s bring in former FBI Agent Steve Moore. Steve, what would you do with the information you have at this point because -- and let`s be
clear so the viewers understand, the father is now being held in jail charged with criminal homicide, which is basically a catch-all. It can
range anything from first-degree murder to criminally negligent homicide. But what is the investigation that you would take at this point with the
information you have?
STEVE MOORE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CONTRIBUTOR AND FORMER FBI AGENT AND INVESTIGATOR: Well, right now, what you`re trying to do is somewhere
within that broad span of criminal homicide. You`re trying to determine whether this was an intentional killing, a premeditated killing, an
accidental killing with a premeditated lie to cover it up. There`s so much you need to turn up. And the critical piece of evidence to do that is
going to be finding the little boy`s body because that`s going to corroborate or disprove the father`s story, and that`s going to be
important. Any confession you get you need to corroborate the circumstances.
IYER: And let`s take a look at what the weather conditions are like at this time of year in Tennessee. And so, Steve Moore, what factors does
that play, the natural elements, in looking for a child? And the urgency, because there -- this is still an urgent search for this little boy and I
want the viewers to understand that.
[19:44:55] MOORE: Right. If -- you obviously have to continue thinking that, well, until you find the body, there`s a possibility that the child
is alive. But I`ve only seen that very rarely. I think that right now, what you`re looking at as far as the weather is that there`s been no rain,
there`s been no snow, there`s been nothing to really destroy evidence. So, I think it bodes well for the investigators, if not for Daniel -- the
father.
IYER: OK. Still more questions on this as the search continues for 5- year-old little Joe Daniels. How can his dad be charged with killing him when his body hasn`t even been found? We`ll discuss after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:50:32] IYER: We`re still talking about the urgent search for a non- verbal 5-year-old boy in Tennessee whose own father reported him missing, sparking a massive sweep before police say he admitted to killing him and
hiding his body. Now, it`s just a matter of finding little Joe`s remains and finding him some sense of justice. Still with me, PEOPLE Magazine
Senior Writer Steve Helling, CNN Law Enforcement Contributor Steve Moore and Defense Attorney Anahita Sedaghatfar.
Anahita, I want to go to you on this, because the question is, you have a confession, but you don`t have a body. So, does the law even allow for us
to arrest this guy at this point because he is in custody?
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes, he`s in custody, he`s being charged with the killing of his son. But Seema, they need to now decide whether or not this killing
was an intentional, premeditated plotted killing at which point they can charge him with first-degree murder, or was this something lesser. Was it
a heat of passion, was the father under stress that he just snap and kill his child at which point it would be a second-degree murder or even a
manslaughter charge. But remember, they can`t just convict based upon a confession.
IYER: Right. Good point.
SEDAGHATFAR: They simply need to get corroboration for that and they need to hopefully find the body to get that corroboration or some other
independent evidence supporting the confession.
IYER: Great point, Anahita, because I think that`s what people are wondering. How can you put someone in jail for confessing to something
when you don`t even have the body of evidence, the physical body, without being gruesome about it, but that`s the truth.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right.
IYER: So, he can`t be convicted, but let me ask you this, could a prosecutor present this case to a grand jury? Could they get an indictment
on this, and without a body?
SEDAGHATFAR: Absolutely. If the prosecution decides to take this to a grand jury, they can do that. Remember the standard to get an indictment
in the grand jury is very low. It`s not the same standard that you have to get in a criminal case which is beyond a reasonable doubt, and that`s what
would have to be proven at trial. But I would suspect that they`re not going to move forward with that. They`re going to wait to see if they can
find the body, perhaps talk to his wife. What did she know? Did she participate in the killing, did she help with the cover up, did she help
dispose of the body? I think it doesn`t hurt to allow the police to do a little but more digging, a little bit more investigation. Hopefully,
they`ll be able to find the body and get some evidence from that. If not, get some other corroboration before they go forward with a specific charge
even if it goes before a grand jury.
IYER: Well, you`re asking good questions because a lot of us are wondering about the mom and we don`t even know that, but also, aren`t we all
wondering about motive? So, Anahita, if you were representing this guy, what type of investigation would you do to, perhaps, find out why he would
even confess to this? For instance, would you get a mental health examination of him? What other steps would you take?
SEDAGHATFAR: You`re so on point. I would definitely do that first and foremost, his mental health and issue. Also, how was the confession given?
Was it a coerced confession? Was he read his rights? Did he waive his rights? All of those things come into play. I would suspect if his
defense attorneys believe that somehow the confession was coerced or was illegally obtained in any way, they would seek to toss that out in the
trial of this case.
IYER: Oh, you`re so good, Anahita, and so were you Steve Helling and Steve Moore.
SEDAGHATFAR: Thank you, Seema.
IYER: Thank you all for staying with me on this story. So important, and I hope that the viewers will hear our urgency in finding this little boy`s
remains. Thank you.
Now, we are all used to smiling for selfies unless you hate selfies like I do. But mugging for a mug shot? Really? "ONE MORE THING" straight ahead.
[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
IYER: We got "ONE MORE THING" for you tonight. Getting arrested is no laughing matter but try telling that to Kenneth Evans who definitely put
the mug into his mug shots. Cops say Evans was booked after he hit his girlfriend with a pizza as she was driving him home, and once there, he
proceeded to trash the house, flipping a couch and throwing things. Cops say he was obviously intoxicated and booked him. But it`s doubtful he was
smiling like that once -- after he slept it all off.
Thanks for watching, everyone. I`m Seema Iyer. We`ll see you back here tomorrow night at 6:00 P.M. for CRIME & JUSTICE. "UNMASKING A KILLER"
begins right now.
END
