Return to Transcripts main page
Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield
Murder Cover-Up; Deadly Waco-Raid. Aired 6-8p ET
Aired April 12, 2018 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:05]
RITA COSBY, GUEST HOST, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE: And good evening, everybody, I am Rita Cosby in for Ashleigh Banfield, and this is "Crime and
Justice."
A 20-year-old beauty bludgeoned and also bloodied, found dead, and producer Bernice Man, tell us what happened.
BERNICE MAN, CRIME AND JUSTICE PRODUCER: Well, Rita, not only that. Danielle was found almost completely naked, with scratches, bruises, and
her face wrapped in duct tape. Her former roommate calls 911 blaming a home intruder, but his story isn`t quite adding up.
COSBY: Thanks, Bernice, we`ll be following that. And it`s been 25 years since the Branch Davidian compound was raided in Waco, Texas. Tonight, we
talk to a follower who lived through the raid and had an intimate relationship with David Koresh. And she is still a believer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is day 51 of the siege near Waco, Texas, and the standoff between the FBI and the Branch Davidian religious cult that now
seems to be coming to an explosive and fiery end.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At least four Federal agents are dead and 14 are injured in the shootout with members of a religious cult.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They started firing at me. And so what happened was is that I fell back in the door and the bullets started coming through the
door.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The loyalty and faithfulness that David Koresh`s followers had to him and to his cause.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now the meaning of the apocalypse is called the revelation of Jesus Christ which god gave to him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And later, the bikini clad 21-year-old drunk driver, who killed an unborn baby and his daddy. Kyle Peltz, is she getting off easy?
KYLE PELTZ, CRIME AND JUSTICE PRODUCER: That is right. She faced up to 50 years behind bars, but was sentenced to much less than that. By our count,
Rita, she could be out of prison and walking free in as little as five years, and back on the road.
COSBY: Wow that is staggering. Thanks, Kyle, so much.
But first, we will go to Florida where a young man is either the innocent victim of a home invasion that took the life of his former roommate, or he
is the one who killed her. Asgeirr Ulfr called cops when he says he went by his old house to drop off a storage key and got shot in the foot by an
intruder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know who it was that shot you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. They were wearing a mask.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Did they rob you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. I just came in. I was coming to drop off a key to my friend.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Could you tell if it was a male or a female?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it was a female.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Could you tell if she was white, black or Hispanic?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I couldn`t tell.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you remember what clothing she had on, what color shirt, what color pants?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She had a black hoodie on, blue jeans. That is the best -- I think there was someone else. I don`t know if my friend`s
breathing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, where were you shot at?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My foot. I was not in my foot.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are they still there?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t think so. I -- I think I saw them running out the back. I`m starting to bleed a lot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: An unbelievable story. Well, after the intruder fled, Ulfr said, he found his friend Danielle, bound and covered with duct tape and cable ties,
unresponsive, and wearing only her purple underwear.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Look, I want you to say now every single time she takes a breath and starting immediately, OK. Go ahead and say now out
loud.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It doesn`t really look like she is breathing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You don`t see her chest rising?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no. Oh, my god.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. Lay her flat on her back, or move any pillows behind her head. OK, we need you to do CPR on her, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do I remove the duct tape?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where is she right now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now she is on the floor, she duct taped to the bed, and her face is duct taped. Her face is duct taped.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now, can you take the duct tape off her and perform CPR?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Me?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, can you go ahead and take the duct tape off if she is not breathing. We need to go ahead and start CPR?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t have anything to take the duct tape -- I don`t have anything to take the duct tape off with. I don`t --- I don`t see a
knife or anything.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (BEEP), (BEEP).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Danielle Scarr, was pronounced dead at the scene. And Ulfr told police about their past, but since then they have poked a lot of holes in
his story saying, that he is caught in a lie after being caught on camera. And now he is been arrested for her murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[18:05:12] KIM CANNADAY, SEMINOLE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: On further investigation we were able to determine that he made that story up,
fabricated it, in order to cover up the crime. It`s our belief that he had planned to do this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And with me now to talk about all of this is anchor reporter, Ray Caputo from 96.5 WDBO in Orlando, and also clinical and forensic
psychologist, Cheryl Arutt. And also, defense attorney, Eric Johnson.
Ray, let me start with you. This is such a wild story. He is -- except either saying, all right, I go to the house, what, dropping off a storage
key, and then suddenly an intruder pops out of nowhere. Is that the deal, Ray?
RAY CAPUTO, REPORTER, NEWS 96.5 WDBO: It`s a pretty plausible story, Rita, on the surface. I mean his, you know, he said he went to drop the key off,
he goes in the house and he finds his former roommate taped up in a very precarious situation, unresponsive. But, like you said, when police
started getting involved, they poked more holes in his story, looks like a piece of Swiss cheese now that is how many holes they poked in his story.
COSBY: Describe the scene, Ray, because it is so sad and so tragic. Here`s this beautiful girl, Danielle, she is at the scene, and when
authorities arrive, what, she has duct tape over her face. Describe just physically what she looked like. It`s so sad to hear.
CAPUTO: Well, police found her unresponsive on the floor. She was lying on her back, and her whole face was covered with gray duct tape. She was
also duct taped -- her hands were duct taped to a bed post, and her feet were zip tied. And again, she was unresponsive. Now, there wasn`t a
gunshot wound found. So it would lead me to believe that she might have suffocated, because that duct tape was covering her face.
COSBY: And he wants us to believe, Ray, that what? That he got shot? This intruder, and it`s a woman intruder, right, that he is claiming, and
then he has a bullet wound on his leg?
CAPUTO: That is what Mr. Ulfr says. And, you know, again on the surface, it`s plausible. But when you start to look into some of the details, for
instance, he said that the suspect apparently fled out the back door. When police looked at that back door, they noticed it was locked from the
inside. Now, unless this is the most courteous burglar ever who locks the door on the way out, that is probably not true. You know, there`s a lot of
other things as well, Rita.
COSBY: Yes. Let me, in fact, put some of this up. This is at the Walmart, because, you know, first he says, OK, it`s an intruder and then
authorities say, well, that, first of all, sounds like a little fishy story, a weird story, you talk about the back door and the wood there,
there was also a gun placed on that. So the person could not have gone through the back door.
But also at Walmart they get surveillance footage, and they also find out that there were a number of purchases that he made at Walmart that
certainly raise some eyebrows. I want to put it up, because, it`s a pair of wrangler boots, that in one part he is seen wearing the boots, and
another part, he is not, cable ties, which is significant, because she is tied with those cable ties, and also duct tape, 3M duct tape.
By the way, he did have time to get peanut butter cups and a couple sharpies, so he got to do some fun things for himself in the middle of this
all. But Ray, why is this significant?
CAPUTO: Well, because they tracked the duct tape and the zip ties back to the crime scene. Now, oddly what led them to Walmart in the first place to
find these receipts was there was a tag for a pair of boots that they believed that the suspect wore. So they followed the trail back to this
Walmart and then they also found the other smoking guns, I think, namely, the zip ties and the duct tape. It doesn`t get any closer to that to
connecting Ulfr to this crime.
COSBY: Absolutely. Let`s bring in id we could, Cheryl Arutt, she is a clinical and forensic psychologist. Cheryl, what`s so weird is duct taped,
you know, there was also some hair found near her body. What do you make of that as a professional psychologist?
CHERYLL ARUTT, CLINICAL AND FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, Rita, these kinds of things are the things that we see when someone is looking to have a
trophy of his kill, like a souvenir of cutting off her hair. There`s also a tremendous effort to maintain power and control. There`s total
domination. He has duct taped her hands to the bottom post of the bed. He zip tied her legs together, and he completely blotted out her face with the
duct tape.
This is characteristic of something that we call erotomania, which is a very rare delusion, where somebody believes that somebody else is in love
with them, or in a relationship with them, where the other person, if you ask some say, what are you talking about? That is not our relationship at
all.
[18:10:02] He apparently viewed them as being in a relationship and her cheating on him, if she was dating or doing whatever it was she was doing,
she had this roommate who had developed this very dangerous attachment to her. I understand began stalking her.
And at this point this culminated in an ultimate act of dominance that you will keep your legs together. I will blot out your face, and I will stop
you from doing anything.
COSBY: And let me go back to Ray, back to Ray Caputo, because Ray, what I think is so weird, some of the (inaudible) just hits on, is this
relationship. Because he claimed that they were in a relationship, and that they broke up. But yet, according to other people, they were never in
a relationship. Right? There`s the whole disparity of what`s going on there.
CAPUTO: There is. There`s a lot of back and forth. I mean, we heard from neighbors that lived right where -- in the neighborhood where this crime
scene happened. And they suspected that the two were a couple. Obviously, Mr. Ulfr thought they were a couple too, his mother thought they were a
couple, but --and even co-workers at the Olive Garden thought they were a couple, but we`re also hearing police actually sent out a statement shortly
after this, stating otherwise, that they were not involved in a relationship. Now, I know for a fact that they weren`t involved in a
relationship when this happened, but I`m still trying to get to the bottom of, you know, what the status of that relationship was as of January, when
this alleged cheating took place.
COSBY: And also, this guy had a history, apparently, according to the co- workers, because they met at the Olive Garden Restaurant, they worked together, then they became the roommates. But there was also this history,
correct? Where he has apparently made threats to her before. Her current boyfriend says he went over to, what, the parents` house and saying let me
basically talk to her?
CAPUTO: There`s been a lot of stalker like behavior. You know, one thing about these cases, I`ve done so many of them, unfortunately, the writing is
always on the wall. He was tracking her through an app on her phone, and she knew that when she went over to another person in her life`s house and
he followed her there. He also sent a text to this guy that was involved with the victim, saying something to the fact of, if she doesn`t answer my
text, then she better not come into work. You know, so threatening types of behavior. I mean, the writing was on the wall with Mr. Ulfr.
COSBY: Let`s go to Eric Johnson, defense attorney. Eric, you hear this. And this guy has a history of stalking her, a number of people said that.
You know, basically said this crazy intruder story. Let`s hear your best defense, Eric.
ERIC JOHNSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, basically, looking at it, no one can tell what kind of relationship they actually had, because no one was inside
the house. Given that --
COSBY: And guess what? She is dead, she can`t even talk about it, Eric, too, by the way.
JOHNSON: That is true. But there are other people who said that there may have been a relationship. And if he did have access as he did have to ask
to come over there and return a key and he knew her family and all these other things, there`s a possibility that if he was the perpetrator, he
could have planned it out in a way in which he would not have had to call the police himself to report the crime.
COSBY: But he was doing it to cover up. He was making this intruder story. He is also shot. Looked like he did it himself, come on.
JOHNSON: Well, the question is, if there is no proof to dispute his story, how can you say that he was not shot? Unless there`s some showing to say
there was no intruder or anything else.
COSBY: All right, so there was an intruder, even though he said they went out the back door, nobody else saw the intruder, the back door, you
couldn`t have gone out, because there was this burglar proof wooden slot there, there is this wooden stick that prevented it. So that is not true -
-
JOHNSON: Also, no one saw him --
COSBY: Then the Walmart, all the purchases, the same ties happened to be in his car. You know, after a lot of coincidences, don`t you go hog, don`t
the flag bells go off.
JOHNSON: Well, the coincidence is made and make his case a lot harder to prove, but in no way does that anyway prove his guilt. You are talking
about common items.
COSBY: What would you say to defend this guy? Just say everything, just everybody else is lying, but him?
JOHNSON: No, the bottom line is state has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. There is no one who saw him perpetrate this crime. The only thing
they have right now is that he`s present.
COSBY: Most of the time that doesn`t happen. Eric, you`re a good defense attorney.
JOHNSON: And that`s why I said that.
COSBY: You and I have covered a lot of cases.
JOHNSON: Yes.
COSBY: I have covered a lot of things through the years. When do you actually have a video, here is the crime? You`re saying anything short of
that?
JOHNSON: Well, no.
COSBY: That there would be no convictions, basically, in America? That is an absurd statement.
JOHNSON: Convictions are based on circumstantial evidence, but that is not. That means the circumstantial evidence has to prove --
COSBY: Exactly.
JOHNSON: -- has to prove the case. And in this particular manner, you will have some common items that had been purchased and now similar to ones
that were at the crime scene. They will have to do a DNA analysis on the tape, are his fingerprints on the tape, or anything else. They have to do
more than just say that he was there and the coincidence of him having these items. Because, if there are other people`s fingerprints that are
found at the scene, if they are possibly found a shell casing for the gun, in which he was shot with, there are other things that can show that
someone may have been there that could cause reasonable doubt as to whether or not he is the one who actually perpetrated this crime.
COSBY: Well, you can bet his defense attorneys are trying to get all that, if they can find it. Thank you very much, all of you.
JOHNSON: Thank you.
[18:15:00] COSBY: And just ahead, it has been 25 years since that violent and deadly siege at the Branch Davidian Compound near Waco, Texas.
Katherine Schroeder, a fresh follower to the state that she wish she never left. She is going to join us next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have anything else to say? You don`t know. It is funny looking at a camera, isn`t it? OK, wave to them good-bye.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[18:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
We just go to the side of the building and put our ladders up on the roof. We started trying to make entry to the windows. Rounds started coming
through the walls in the room and also up through the floor. It wasn`t just a second, and I was shot in the butt. And, then I realized I would
have to get off the roof. It`s a death trap.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And I`m Rita Crosby in for Ashleigh Banfield. It has been 25 years since the catastrophic ATF raid, and the FBI subsequent standoff at the
Branch Davidian Compound, just outside of Waco, Texas. The trigger for the mission, reports that leader David Koresh was stockpiling illegal weapons,
and abusing children.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is Lt. Lynch, may I help you?
WAYNE MARTIN, CALLER: Yeah, there are 75 men around our building and they`re shooting at us, at Mt. Carmel.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mount Carmel.
MARTIN: Yes. Tell them there are children and women in here, to call it off.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. All right. Hello? I hear gunfire. Oh, shit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And in the ATF raid alone, four agents and six members of the group were killed. Once a cease-fire was negotiated, nearly 900 law enforcement
officials surrounded the compound. The 51-day standoff began and Koresh called into CNN in an attempt to inform the world about his message.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID KORESH, LEADER, BRANCH DAVIDIAN SECT.: The reports that they -- the ATF has made is false. There`s people coming here from all over the world.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you -- is it not proper for you to share with us how many are there with you?
KORESH: There`s more than 75, but a lot more children than what they`ve said too.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: The Davidians sent about two dozen kids as it turns out -- out to safety in exchange for food and other supplies. But some children remained
inside. And it was during the negotiations with the FBI that we began to learn more about David Koresh. Seen here in a documentary from Nine
Network Australia.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KORESH: I explained to them that we`ll send two children out. I gave them a message for the radio, KRLD, you know, so that the public can listen to
where I`m coming from. And I explained that every time they played it I would send two of the children out. There`s a lot of children here. I`ve
had a lot of babies these past few years. It`s true, I do have a lot of children, and it`s true I do have a lot of wives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: He sure did. And on April 19th, the FBI used tanks to fire some 400 containers of tear gas into the facility. Hours later, fires broke out
around the compound, and gunfire was heard inside.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As you point out, David has said time and again, that he would not come out. And this is -- we still do not see any sort of
firefighting equipment out there. So apparently the strategy is to let this thing burn.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Well, and again, among the -- wow, we remember those images all too well. Well, Nine Branch Davidians made it out alive. Inside,
investigators found 76 bodies, 24 of them children, some of them, including Koresh, had gunshot wounds, suggesting suicide or murder suicide.
And joining me tonight, Katherine Schroeder, she is a former Koresh follower living in the Branch Davidian compound during the raid along with
her husband and four children. Here is what Kathy said in a documentary from Nine Network Australia.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why did you come here?
KATHERINE SCHROEDER, MEMBER, BRANCH DAVIDIAN SECT: Because I heard there was something here that I wanted to listen to.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you think of David?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think he is great.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How old are you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m 16.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I love him as a brother.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you believe he is the son of god?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I hope he is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And Kathy still believes in Koresh`s preaching`s. And she had a very close relationship with him. And also joining us tonight, Darlene
McCormick Sanchez, she is a former reporter for the Waco Tribune.
She interviewed Koresh, weeks before the raid after hearing that he was amassing weapons, and sexually abusing children. Her work, a six-part
series called the sinful messiah.
Kathryn Schroeder and Darlene McCormick-Sanchez, thank you so much for being with us.
[18:25:00] It`s wild to think it`s been 25 years. I think the world remembers those images, especially when the compound was on fire. Darlene,
I want to start with you, because you knew a little bit. You were in the area, you knew a little bit about this compound. Sort of take us to the
very beginnings when you heard about this compound, and what was kind of going on there.
DARLENE MCCORMICK-SANCHEZ, FORMER REPORTER, WACO TRIBUNE-HERLAD: Well, the story got started with a phone call from Australia around April, the year
before the raid happened. And we got a call from -- it was a breakaway group that had left the compound from Australia, returned home, but some of
their loved ones were still there.
And they were fearful at the time that people there at the compound would commit mass suicide. And so I think they had tried to get the attention of
law enforcement. And I don`t think they got very far, and so they called the newspaper.
COSBY: And what was the reaction? Did you say, OK, well, here`s this compound in our backyard, had you heard things about it, or was this sort
of out of the blue at that moment?
MCCORMICK-SANCHEZ: No. It wasn`t out of the blue. The Branch Davidians had been on the radar screen before this, Mark England, co-writer of the
Sinful Messiah Series, he had actually covered -- there had been a shootout in previous days between David Koresh and a rival who claimed that he was
the rightful person to lead this Branch Davidian Sect.
COSBY: And now you also interviewed David Koresh. By the way, your work was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize, the nine-month investigation prior to
the raid. Darlene, tell us, how do you go from hearing these reports to getting -- as a journalist, I know that -- it is like trying to get
somebody on the phone, and you did your homework, you were sort of reading the bible, because you knew where he was coming from. Right?
MCCORMICK-SANCHEZ: Yes. That is correct. We started gathering information, of course, after we got that initial contact. The reports,
you know, the fears that there would be a mass suicide, those, of course, didn`t come to fruition. And, you know, that everybody gave a sigh of
relief, of course.
But of course, at that same time we were wondering, OK, so what`s going on out here? You know, before there was just this sect out there that, yes,
they were kind of in a squabble between, you know, leaders out there, and David Koresh ended up being the leader, of course. But we -- you know, we
wanted to know what was going on. Because then the Australians started telling us more and giving us more information.
They sent us some affidavits that had been signed and notarized. They had also sent those to law enforcement. But basically, you know, it kind of
went -- it went nowhere with law enforcement. And so we started looking at that and trying to piece together what happened. Of course, people can
make all kinds of claims. As a journalist you need to be able to corroborate what people are saying.
And so we started basically, you know, trying to research and do as much as we could in terms of gathering documentation. We got court records. We
had the affidavits. We even went so far as to order birth certificates, because we had people telling us, including one former midwife there, that
there were children being born to David Koresh.
And on all the birth certificates they were putting, you know, refuse to disclose, or they were leaving them blank. And sure enough, that is
exactly what we found. So we tried to gather, like I said, as much hard evidence as we could.
COSBY: Absolutely. And at first you just kind of -- it was so wild and such a -- you know, crazy story, so it seemed that you absolutely wanted to
make sure, too, I`m sure you`re just hearing these unbelievable stories and trying to put the facts together and pieces together.
While this was going on, while you were doing that, Darlene, I want to go to Kathryn, I want to go to Kat, because Kat, you`re married, you had four
children. Walk us through what, it was your husband who knew someone close to David Koresh. How did you find out about David Koresh?
SCHROEDER: Right, it was Mike that heard from Steve Schneider first, when he was living in Miami, before we got married. So he had been talking to
Steve Schneider for a while. And I married Mike before I ever actually met anyone. And then Steve Schneider came back to Miami at some point, and I
met Steve. That is when we found out that, in order to hear the rest of the story that we`d have to make a trip.
COSBY: And so you make the trip from Florida and then what, go to Texas, and then you go to California, and you meet David Koresh. Tell us about
that moment, Kat.
SCHROEDER: Well, I don`t remember moments, but I do know that when we went to Texas, we had assumed that David was in Texas and that`s where we`d find
him. And from Florida, that`s quite a long drive, so we drove straight through and went to Texas. But we found that he wasn`t there and we got
back on the road and turned around and went straight to California.
When we found him in California, we just sat for a bible study and listened. And I don`t know, when you are a staunch believer in God, and you
have been born and raised in a very Christian, southern baptist home and spent a lot of your years trying to get closer to God, and then find a
situation where you are listening to someone who is actually reading this book that we -- this guide that most Christians call their handbook for
life, and actually reading it word for word and making it make sense, not just one verse and a whole three-hour sermon on one verse, but entire
paragraphs and books coming together, it`s -- it`s the most amazing thing in the world.
And even though I didn`t like David as a person, he was not -- he was not a good looking person, he was not a friendly person, he was not something --
someone that I probably would have ever even been friends with.
But the words that came out of his mouth and the teachings that he showed me right there in the book, I could not deny that. And I just wanted to
hear more.
COSBY: Well, Kat, we`re definitely all going to hear more. I want to find out what happened that first day of the raid, your experiences. There`s so
much I want to ask you. Stay with us, if you could. Also, Darlene. More on life inside the Branch Davidian compound when we return.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And bringing these tanks and stuff around here, I tell you what, being an American first, I`m the kind of guy that I`ll stand in
front of a tank, you can run over me, but I`ll be batting one of the tracks. No one`s going to hurt me or my family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[18:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And everybody, I am Rita Cosby, in for Ashleigh Banfield. Back with me now, we are talking about the 25th anniversary of WACO, seeing those
images, just chilling, even 25 years later. We are continuing now with former reporter for the WACO Tribune, Darlene McCormick Sanchez, and also
former Branch Davidian member, Kat Schroeder.
Kat, you were talking before the break about how you met David Koresh and what he represented to you, and to some other people. Enough obviously were
you and your husband and your four kids, you go to the Branch Davidian compound. Tell us about what life was like inside the compound. You were
there for several years.
SCHROEDER: I was there about three and a half years. It varied. It changed over time, as we changed as a group. But it was very -- it was probably the
most primitive situation I`ve ever lived in. It was very basic, very natural, not a lot of ladders to climb and people to walk on to get where
you want to get, like we have in society these days, right?
It was more about how can I help you out, so that you understand why you`re here, or, you know, just anything you may need today, right? There were
neighbors helping each other out. And it was very family-oriented for me. My children were, you know, the most important thing in my life. They
always have been. They come first.
So even other people`s children were important to me. And my children were important to others. So it was very -- it was one tight knit family is what
it was. There were some of us that would go out and go to work and make money. And there were others of us that stayed home and did chores for --
you know, to take care of everyone.
[18:40:00] My job was cooking breakfast for like 100 or 120 people sometimes. It was communal living situation, but it was more of a family
communal living because every single parent in that group was totally capable and willing to take care of anyone else`s children too. So when
they say it takes a village --
COSBY: Right.
SCHROEDER: We did it. So we know it works.
COSBY: But now, Kat, also in the midst of all this, and I know you`ve said -- you were saying before that you didn`t necessarily like David Koresh,
but you actually had intimate relation with him, correct?
SCHROEDER: I did.
COSBY: How did that happen? How did you reconcile that, because you had your children, you were married? How did that happen? Was it just that he
had this sort of brainwashing effect on you and the others?
SCHROEDER: No. And because of the teachings, because of the King James version of the holy bible, which is what we studies, day in and day out,
because of what we learned about God who sits on a throne, because of everything that we knew, I was no longer married.
In the eyes of God, I was married to God. I was living my life for God. This wasn`t about any human being, whatsoever. It wasn`t about Mike. It
wasn`t about David. It wasn`t even about me. It was about living my life for God. Being with David didn`t happen right away.
I mean, even after the teaching came out that we were all married to David, it was a symbol of being married to God, it still didn`t happen right away.
It took a long time because there was a lot of learning that had to happen first.
COSBY: Yes, I can imagine. How did your husband feel? How did that come about? Did he feel awkward with that?
SCHROEDER: He felt awkward with that from day one, from the new light originally came out. It didn`t have anything to do with when I was actually
with David. It happened probably a year before I was ever with David, is when the new light came out. And it was hard on Mike. It was hard on me.
But there is a lot of teachings about, like, not even having photos. Photos are idols, I guess, to a humanity that we were supposed to be putting
aside. Living your life for God is not to live your life for yourself, not to put on makeup and try to be gorgeous or anything like that. So photos
were an element that we put them aside, right?
And that was really difficult for Mike. So he had to go through a ritual for himself and burn these photos that he had of me. That`s just something
that he had to do for himself so he could get through it. But yes, it was hard. But giving up television back in the beginning was hard too. But once
we did it, that was easy. I still don`t even hardly watch television.
COSBY: Well, I`m glad you`re here on the show. Stay with us, if you could. We`re going to continue. Fascinating to hear what life was like inside the
compound from somebody who survived and was there. Many more surprising details on the life inside the compound when we return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pushing people around with guns, I`ll meet you at the doorstep any day, you know, and somebody will get hurt. If you want to keep
playing that game, I`m talking to you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[18:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby, in for Ashleigh Banfield. We continue talking about the 25th anniversary of WACO. And my guests still back with me here,
Branch Davidian member Kat Schroeder and also former WACO Tribune reporter Darlene McCormick Sanchez.
Kat, I want to continue with you. It is so fascinating, what you went through, what you experienced. I know the day of the raid, you husband was
shot. He died. You`re inside with the kids. I can`t imagine just how traumatic this whole thing must have been.
And then you got the kids out too and after that you got yourself soon out after that. Are you glad that you got out obviously of the compound because
soon after that obviously we all know what happened?
SCHROEDER: No, I`m actually not glad that I got out. That`s not it at all. I mean, I`m only out so that my children have me in their lives. My main
goal is to be there for them. Because I personally would rather have died in that fire. I mean, people can`t understand. People had such a hard time
getting this mindset.
[18:50:02] Why didn`t we come out? Why didn`t we come out?
You know, the very first thing that I heard when two cattle (ph) trailers of men come barreling down our road and then jumping out in black -- you
know, full body armor stuff with guns pointing, the first thing I hear is them shoot our female dog and her four pups right in front of my window.
And then I spent the next -- OK, it`s 45 minutes but to me it felt like four hours. Hiding my children on the floor to try to keep them safe. I had
no gun. I had no way to defend myself. A bullet --
COSBY: But Kat -- Kat, you understand that there were also reports of children being sexually abused. There were also reports of weapons inside.
Do you understand why the government did what they did?
SCHROEDER: No, I do not. The report of the abuse was investigated by the department in Texas. And they came out, Joyce Sparks, I think. They came
out. They investigated. And they found no abuse, OK? There was -- the bottom line is, is it legal to come to a residence and because someone is
doing something that you think is illegal, like --
COSBY: But he was having sex with young -- he was having sex with young girls, too, he was. I mean --
SCHROEDER: Does that give them the right to come -- even if that were true, does that give them the right to come and shoot at a building full of
a hundred some odd people, including women and children? Does that give them that right?
COSBY: They were trying to protect them. They felt they were trying to protect them. I want to ask --
SCHROEDER: They were shooting at them.
COSBY: And, Kat, of course the government has a different story.
SCHROEDER: They were shooting at them, not protecting them.
COSBY: Let me ask you because I know that you were one of the only ones from Branch Davidian who actually became a prosecution witness. You spent
three years in jail. You were in jail when the Davidian compound burnt down. What was your reaction?
SCHROEDER: That all of my friends were dying. And I was in a room by myself with no one to support me. It was tough. Everyone I knew and loved
was dying.
COSBY: It must have been just so difficult. What were your thoughts on David Koresh at this moment, the man who said you didn`t like, but you had
intimate relationship with?
SCHROEDER: I didn`t like him as a person, as a human being. We butted heads. We were too much alike. But as an avenue to receive God`s word, he
was the only avenue that I had. And he gave that information to us, all of us. And I was privileged to be able to receive it.
COSBY: Do you still feel privileged? You told one of our producers before the show that you think you will see David Koresh again. Can you explain
that?
SCHROEDER: When the clouds open up in the sky and God returns in the heavens and decides to call all of his children home, yes, David will be
there.
COSBY: You believe you will see him again?
SCHROEDER: Absolutely.
COSBY: Wow. Let me go if I could --
SCHROEDER: I will see Mike and everyone else.
COSBY: All right. Let me go to -- let me go to Darlene, if I could. Darlene, you hear this -- you spoke to David Koresh. When you hear Kat`s
story and just even still, this intense belief in this man, but yet an intense dislike of the man. What were your impressions when you spoke with
him on the phone?
DARLENE MCCORMICK SANCHEZ, FORMER REPORTER, WACO TRIBUNE HERALD: I thought that he was very charismatic. I can understand how you`re going to get
these different perspectives from different people who were in the compound. He certainly had a way with words.
COSBY: Are you surprised that here it is years later, Kat, who spent three years in jail, still allegiance to him?
MCCORMICK SANCHEZ: I`m not because it really came down to once you were in that compound, you were either a believer or you weren`t. And if you were a
believer, you were totally in. And if you weren`t, you did everything in your power to get out of there.
There were stories of people putting on black outfits and crawling through the prairie grass to escape. So, you know, all these years later it`s very
apparent the grip that he had on his followers.
COSBY: It`s amazing to hear. And both of you, I thank you both.
[18:55:01] It was truly fascinating to talk about it 25 years later. Thank you you, both of you, for being here and sharing your incredible insights.
And everybody, I want to remind you, do not miss the HLN original series, "How It Happened," "WACO: God, Guns and the Government." That`s airing
Sunday, April 22nd at 9:00 p.m. Eastern time. And we will be right back.
[19:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
[19:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember how much you had drink at the river?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That to be intoxicated.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She got behind the wheel and took two lives while she was still in her bikini. She is getting sentenced.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But is she about to get off easy? Thanks to her crocodile tears in court.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know what I did was wrong.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When she admitted it`s not her first time driving drunk.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How many times previously had you done that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Quite a few.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One minute you are looking at (INAUDIBLE) and the next minute you (INAUDIBLE) When you`re on the floor.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s been 25 years since the government raided their compound.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were shots going off all around me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But 70 plus people ended up dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You killed some of my children.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And some people still don`t know why.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seventy-five men are around our building and they are shooting at us.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tonight, the woman who survived the siege, slept with their leader.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Or whether he was a total fake. It doesn`t matter.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And still believes his teachings.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was something here that I wanted to listen to.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We ask her what really happened inside that compound.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What am I doing? What am I doing to all these children? Now, what`s really going on here?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
RITA COSBY, HLN HOST: And good evening, everybody. I am Rita Cosby, in for Ashleigh Banfield. This is the second hour of CRIME AND JUSTICE.
Shana Elliott told police she had a few beers while floating in the river before she got behind the wheel and slammed head first into another car.
But she didn`t seem to know that she had just killed a man and his unborn baby when she took a sobriety test in her bikini.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One thousand 18, one thousand 19, one thousand 21, one thousand 22 --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are going to go to the hospital real quick and make sure you are OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I don`t want to, just take me to Peking jail, please.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Well, officers took the bikini-clad Shanna to the hospital. Her blood alcohol level, get this, over twice the legal limit. And once Elliot
sobered up, she had to face the mother of that baby that she killed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRISTIAN GUERRERO, LOST HUSBAND AND UNBORN CHILD IN CRASH: In the past year and seven months, speaking about -- don`t cry, don`t cry. On August
2nd, you made a decision for my family, we had no say in. You made a decision for my son, that his parents had no say in. But what were you
doing on that Tuesday? Out having a good old time. Couldn`t even wait for the weekend.
I`m sorry I know you exist, because I wish you never did. There`s so much more than a stupid girl who can`t learn from her bad decisions. You are a
murderer and a thief. You stole my life. I don`t buy your crocodile tears (INAUDIBLE). You are a monster. You are not sorry for what you have done.
You`re sorry because it landed you right there. You are sorry because you got caught.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And outrage today as she is sentenced to only 14 years for killing two people, and she could be out in five years for good behavior. That`s
right, five years. She was facing a maximum of 50 years.
And with me to talk about all of this on the phone is Jeffrey Boney. He is the associate editor with the "Houston Forward Times" newspaper. Also, Wes
Mao. He is the district attorney in the Shana Elliott case and also the defense attorney, Eric Johnson.
Let me go to Jeffrey. Jeffrey, tell me again what happened that day.
JEFFREY BONEY, ASSOCIATE EDITOR, HOUSTON FORWARD TIMES (on the phone): So basically, Rita, what happened was former Texas State University student
Shanna Elliott. She was driving in her vehicle after having been tubing all day and drinking with friends. She dropped her friends off, and
started on her way home in 2016, and she ended up killing Fabian Guerrero Marino and, of course, killing the unborn child of Kristian Guerrero.
[19:05:26] COSBY: You know, what is amazing, Jeffrey? Apparently, what? And here she is stumbling all over the place in her little bikini. But at
first she said they hit her, right, that it was their fault.
BONEY: Right, she tried to use that as an excuse. She was sharing that with her -- from the jail cell on the phone. And she also was trying to
indicate that not only did they hit her, that they had been drinking as well. So she was putting out these narratives about what was going on.
But he was completely untrue. She was the individual that had the .199 blood alcohol content and she was the person that ran directly into this
couple, who were on their way from a celebratory dinner at Joe`s crab shack because he had just received his United States residency status.
COSBY: It is so heartbreaking to hear. And I want to play a little bit, this is the prosecutor, talking to her in court, because they go through,
what did you drink? I mean, first of all, she`s stumbling all over the place in her little bikini there. But wait until you hear what she drank.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember how much you had to drink at the river?
SHAN ELLIOT, DRUNK OTHER WHO KILLED MAN & UNBORN BABY: Enough to be intoxicated.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A bottle that`s, I believe, state`s exhibit number 24, did you take that to the river with you?
ELLIOT: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember about how full it was when you went down there?
ELLIOT: It was a full bottle.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Showing you what`s been previously admitted as states` exhibit number 24. Would you agree with me that`s about a fourth full now?
ELLIOT: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And would you agree with me that it reads 1.5 liters on the label?
ELLIOT: Yes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COSBY: Three-fourths of a bottle. That is unbelievable.
Let me go to Wes Mau. He is the district attorney who is involved in this case. Mr. DA, what was your reaction when you saw this case? Here you
are, three quarters of a bottle, and she is blaming the other family, Mr. DA.
WES MAU, DISTRICT ATTORNEY IN CASE (on the phone): We were certainly shocked. This is one of the worst cases of intoxication manslaughter that
we have had to deal with since I have been D.A. And of course, we decide that were going to take the case to trial and seek a punishment that we
hoped would send a message to the community that this sort of behavior wouldn`t be tolerated.
COSBY: You have to be livid. Because when I heard that she got -- potentially she could get out in five years, she is 23 years old. She
could get out when she is 28 years old. There are two lives, Mr. DA. You have to be absolutely disappointed that the sentence was as short as it is.
MAU: I will say that it doesn`t send the message that we asked the jury to send. But I know the jury did have to struggle with deciding whether to
seek vengeance for the Guerrero family, and then what would become of Shana Elliott after once she got out of prison, which she eventually would.
And I have spoken to a number of jurors afterward. I know they struggled with that. And they ended up deciding that they wanted to give her a
sentence that would send a strong message, but would also give her an opportunity to rehabilitate and reenter society.
COSBY: Well, and as you know, there is obviously two sides to the story. And, of course, Kristian Guerrero, this is the mom who is driving the car
that Shana slammed into, her husband dies, their unborn child dies, and, of course, Kristian Guerrero is just livid. I want to play a little bit of
her reaction because she has so many emotions. And of course, needless to say, furious at Shana. Here is a little bit of what she had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GUERRERO: I don`t know what is worse. What you said when you were drunk, accusing my husband and I of drinking that day at the river. Or when you
were completely sober on the phone to your boyfriend just months after you murdered my family, discussing our fictitious involvement in the cartel
instead of taking responsibility for the shit person, you are blaming your upbringing.
You are a coward. You are claiming we caused the accident. You were driving straight. You saw us at the river. You saw me taking shots? You
are a liar. But I`m not them. I won`t take the fall from you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And remember, the you she is talking about is now going to be out possibly, if she has good behavior, five years.
You know what`s so tragic, I think about all of this, I think about there was a sonogram that was taken place soon before the accident. They were
out celebrating. They were so excited to have the new baby, at that point they didn`t even know what the sex of the baby was.
I want to go to the defense attorney, Eric Johnson.
You hear this, and there`s a little quote about from the sonogram. Is this the face of our little prince or little princess? They didn`t even know
what the baby was, Eric. As it turned out it was a little boy named after the dad who was killed. The baby died. And in fact, had to stay in the
mother`s womb because she was so injured, had to stay in the mother`s womb and then, of course, was born dead. There are two lives lost and this girl
is walking possibly in five years, Eric.
[19:10:45] ERIC JOHNSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the fact that she may get out in five years is not really the most important part. I mean, while
this is a tragedy, there is nothing that the court can do to bring back lost life. There is nothing we can do for that situation. But taking --
COSBY: But you know what, Eric, you could have justice? And you know, you hear that mother. And we were just playing her. My heartbreaks for her.
You think about she doesn`t have her baby. She doesn`t have her husband. And then Ms. Bikini-clad over there is out when she`s 28 years old. She
has her whole life ahead of her, Eric.
JOHNSON: Well, that is - well, she has the whole life ahead of her, however, she still does have to deal with this situation as well. And we
were believe that if she has a sincere remorse that this will affect her as well. But given the fact that the judge --.
COSBY: That`s it? She didn`t even admit that she did it. She wasn`t even sober enough to know she did it, Eric.
JOHNSON: Well, whether or not she knew it at the time, it was seen that during the course of the trial. She did express this some remorse with
regards to perpetrating these acts. And the judge took that into consideration by not running the sentences concurrently, but running them
consecutively so that she would possibly face the 14 years based on the sentence that the jury laid out.
He gave her as much time as he possibly could base on the two seven-year sentences by running them consecutively. Now, how the parole system works
out, that`s something we have to take into consideration. But in this particular matter, given that there was no malicious intent or intent to
kill this individuals, this is an accident that was complicated by her use of alcohol. If it was just a --
COSBY: Well. Let me tell you, Eric, what it was. It was an accident waiting to happen because this was not her first time.
Let me go to Jeffrey. Because Jeffrey, this woman had a history of problems. Soon before she was arrested, it had ties with marijuana,
heroin, prior arrests. There was -- this is just from 2016, prior arrests. In March, possession of heroin, marijuana, methamphetamine. Then in May,
this is just soon before this accident, possession of heroin. Jeffrey, I mean, there was so much in this woman`s history, wasn`t the first time.
BONEY: Yes, I mean, you know, seeing the individual who was accused of possessing heroin, methamphetamine, marijuana in March, and then arrested
again for possession of heroin two months later in May of 2016. And then, of course, this incident that took place with the drunk driving incident,
it showed a pattern, that this individual was reckless and irresponsible. And, of course, in this particular case, took some -- not only one person`s
life, but the unborn child. And, of course, we have to also understand, Kristian also suffered because she had bleeding of the brain and had to do
recovery herself. So she has to live with not only physical scars, but also the mental scars and the emotional scars of having lost her loved one.
COSBY: Absolutely. It is so, so tragic. And again, she could walk in five years. Unbelievable.
And everyone, just ahead, it has been 25 years since the violent and deadly siege at the branch Davidian compound near Waco, Texas. We remember these
pictures all too well. Kathryn Schroeder, a Koresh follower to this day says she wished she never left. She will join us next. You do not want to
miss it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Got anything else to say?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t know? It is funny looking at a camera, isn`t it? OK, wave to them good-bye.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:18:57] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He just went around the side of the building, put our ladders up and went up onto the roof and started trying
to make entrance through the windows on the roof. The rounds started coming through the walls in the room and also up through the floor. It
wasn`t just a second, and I was shot in the butt. And, of course, then I realized we have to get off the roof. It`s a death trap.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby in for Ashleigh Banfield.
It has been 25 years since the catastrophic ATF raid, and the FBI subsequent standoff at the branch Davidian compound just outside of Waco,
Texas. The trigger for the mission, reports that leader David Koresh was stockpiling illegal weapons and abusing children.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is Lt. Lynch, may I help you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, there are 75 men around our building and they`re shooting at us at Mount Caramel.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mt. Carmel?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Tell them there are children and women in here, to call it off.
[19:20:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Hello? I hear gunfire. Oh, shit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And in the ATF raid alone, four agents and six members of the group were killed. Once a cease-fire was negotiated, nearly 900 law enforcement
officials surrounded the compound. The 51-day standoff began and Koresh called into CNN in an attempt to inform the world about his message.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The reports that the ATF has made is false. There`s people coming here from all over the world.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is it not proper for you to share with us how many are there with you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s more than 75 by far. There is a lot more children than what they have said too.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: The Davidians sent about two dozen kids, as it turns out, out to safety in exchange for food and other supplies. But some children remained
inside. And it was during the negotiations with the FBI that we began to learn more about David Koresh. Seen here in a documentary from Nine
Network Australia.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I explained to them that we`ll send two children out. I gave them a message for the radio, KRLD, you know, so that the public can
listen to where I`m coming from. And I explained that every time they played it I would send two of the children out. There`s a lot of children
here. I have had a lot of babies these past few years. It`s true, I do have a lot of children, and it`s true I do have a lot of wives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: He sure did. And on April 19th, the FBI used tanks to fire some 400 containers of tear gas into the facility. Hours later, fires broke out
around the compound, and gunfire was heard inside.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As you point out, David has said time and again, that he would not come out. And this is -- we still do not see any sort of
firefighting equipment out there. So apparently the strategy is to let this thing burn.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well. And again, among the --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Wow, we remember those images all too well. Well, nine branch Davidians made it out alive. Inside, investigators found 76 bodies, 24 of
them children, some of them, including Koresh, had gunshot wounds, suggesting suicide or murder suicide.
And joining me tonight, Kathryn Schroeder. She is a former Koresh follower living in the branch Davidian compound during the raid along with her
husband and four children.
Here is what Kathy said in a documentary from Nine Network Australia.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why did you come here?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because I heard there was something here that I wanted to listen to.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you think of David?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think he`s great.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How old are you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m 16.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I love him as a brother.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you believe he`s the son of God?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I hope he is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And Kathy still believes in Koresh`s preaching. And she had a very close relationship with him. And also joining us tonight, Darlene
McCormick Sanchez. She is a former reporter for the "Waco Tribune." She interviewed Koresh weeks before the raid after hearing that he was amassing
weapons, and sexually abusing children. Her work, a six-part series called the "sinful messiah."
Kathryn Schroeder and Darlene McCormick Sanchez, thank you so much for being with us. It`s wild to think it`s been 25 years. I think the world
remembers those images, especially when the compound was on fire.
Darlene, I want to start with you because you knew a little bit. You were in the area. You knew a little bit about this compound. Sort of take us
to the very beginnings when you heard about this compound and what was kind of going on there.
DARLENE MCCORMICK SANCHEZ, FORMER REPORTER, WACO TRIBUNE-HERALD: Well, the story got started with a phone call from Australia around April, the year
before the raid happened. And we got a call from -- it was a breakaway group that had left the compound from Australia, returned home, but some of
their loved ones were still there. They were fearful at the time that people there at the compound would commit mass suicide. And so I think
they had tried to get the attention of law enforcement. And I don`t think they got very far, and so they called the newspaper.
COSBY: And what was the reaction? Did you say, OK, well, here`s this compound in our backyard, had you heard things about it, or was this sort
of out of the blue at that moment?
SANCHEZ: No. It wasn`t out of the blue. The branch Davidians had been on the radar screen before this, Mark England, co-writer of the "Sinful
Messiah" series, he had actually covered -- there had been a shootout in previous days between David Koresh and a rival who claimed that he was the
rightful person to lead this branch Davidian sect.
[19:25:22] COSBY: And now you also interviewed David Koresh. By the way, your work was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize, the nine-month investigation
prior to the raid. Darlene, tell us, how do you go from hearing these reports to getting -- as a journalist, trying to get somebody on the phone,
and you did your homework, you were sort of reading the bible, because you knew where he was coming from. Right?
SANCHEZ: Yes. That`s correct. We started gathering information, of course, after we got that initial contact. The reports, you know, the
fears that there would be a mass suicide, those, of course, didn`t come to fruition. And, you know, that everybody gave a sigh of relief, of course.
But of course, at that same time we were wondering, OK, so what`s going on out here, you know? Before there was just this sect out there that, yes,
they were kind of in a squabble between, you know, leaders out there, and David Koresh ended up being the leader, of course.
But we -- you know, we wanted to know what was going on. Because then the Australians started telling us more and giving us more information. They
sent us some affidavits that had been signed and notarized. They had also sent those to law enforcement. But basically, you know, it kind of went --
it went nowhere with law enforcement.
And so we started looking at that and trying to piece together what happened. Of course, people can make all kinds of claims. As a journalist
you need to be able to corroborate what people are saying. And so we started basically, you know, trying to research and do as much as we could
in terms of gathering documentation.
We got court records. We had the affidavits. We even went so far as to order birth certificates because we had people telling us, including one
former midwife there, that there were children being born to David Koresh. And on all the birth certificates they were putting, you know, refuse to
disclose, or they were leaving them blank. And sure enough, that`s exactly what we found. So we tried to gather, like I said, as much hard evidence
as we could.
COSBY: Absolutely. And at first you just kind of -- it was so wild and such a -- you know, crazy story, so it seemed that you absolutely wanted to
make sure, too, I`m sure you`re hearing these unbelievable stories and trying to put the facts together and pieces together. While this was going
on, while you were doing that, Darlene, I want to go to Kathryn. I want to go to Kat.
Because, Kat, you`re married. You had four children. Walk us through what, it was your husband who knew someone close to David Koresh. How did
you find out about David Koresh?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER, HUSBAND KILLED IN ATF RAID: Right, it was Mike that heard from Steve Schneider first when he was living in Miami before we got
married. So he had been talking to Steve Schneider for a while. And I married Mike before I ever actually met anyone. And then Steve Schneider
came back to Miami at some point, and I met Steve. That`s when we found out that, in order to hear the rest of the story, that we would have to
make a trip.
COSBY: And so you make the trip from Florida. And then what, go to Texas, and then you go to California, and you meet David Koresh. Tell us about
that moment, Kat.
SCHROEDER: Well, I don`t remember moments. But I do know that when we went to Texas we had assumed that David was in Texas and that`s where we
would find him. And from Florida, that`s quite a long drive. We drove straight through and went to Texas. We found he wasn`t there and we got
back on the road and turned around and went straight to California.
When we found him in California, we just sat for a bible study and listened. And I don`t know, when you are a staunch believer in God, and
you have been born and raised in a very Christian, southern Baptist home and spent a lot of your years trying to get closer to God, and then find a
situation where you are listening to someone who is actually reading this book that we -- this guide that most Christians call their handbook for
life, and actually reading it word for word and making it make sense, not just one verse and a whole three-hour sermon on one verse, but entire
paragraphs and books coming together, it`s -- it`s the most amazing thing in the world. And even though --.
[19:30:00] KATHRYN SCHROEDER, FORMER BRANCH DAVIDIAN: Not just one verse and a whole three-hour sermon on one verse, but entire paragraphs and books
coming together, it`s the most amazing thing in the world. And even though I didn`t like David as a person, he was not -- he was not a good looking
person, he was not a friendly person, he was not something -- someone that I probably would have ever even been friends with. But the words that came
out of his mouth, and the teachings that he showed me right there in the book, I could not deny that. And I just wanted to hear more.
COSBY: Well, Kat, we`re definitely all going to hear more. I want to find out what happened that first day of the raid, your experiences. There`s so
much I want to ask you. Stay with us, if you could, also, Darlene. More on life inside the Branch Davidian Compound when we return.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID KORESH, LEADER, BRANCH DAVIDIAN SECT: And bringing these tanks and stuff around here, I tell you what, being an American first, I`m the kind
of guy that I`ll stand in front of a tank, you can run over me, but I`ll be batting one of the tracks. No one is going to hurt me or my family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:36:14] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some 200 federal, state and local lawmen have surrounded the 77-acre compound as the standoff continues. At five
minutes before 6:00 a.m. local time this morning, the FBI called the followers of David Koresh inside the compound to say that they would start
within a few minutes, knocking holes in the building and pouring in teargas. Federal agents tried to arrest Koresh for gun control violations.
When they did, the shooting started.
KORESH: They fired on us first, like I say, they were scared.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And everybody, I am Rita Cosby in for Ashleigh Banfield. Back with me now as we are talking about the 25th anniversary of Waco. Seeing those
images just chilling, even five -- you know, 25 years later. We are continuing now with former reporter for the Waco Tribune, Darlene McCormick
Sanchez, and also a former Branch Davidian member Kat Schroeder. Kat, you were talking before the break about how you met David Koresh and what he
represented to you, and to some other people enough for you and your husband and your four kids, you go to the Branch Davidian compound. Tell
us about what life was like inside the compound. You were there for several years.
SCHROEDER: I was there about 3-1/2 years. It varied, it changed over time, as we changed as a group. But it was very -- it was probably the
most primitive situation I`ve ever lived in. It was very basic, very natural, not a lot of ladders to climb and people to walk on to get where
you want to get, like we have in society these days, right? It was more about how can I help you out, so that you understand why you`re here, or,
you know, just anything you may need today, right? There were neighbors helping each other out. And it was very family-oriented for me. My
children were, you know, the most important thing in my life, they always have been, they come first. So, even other people`s children were
important to me. And my children were important to others. So, it was very -- it was one tight knit family is what it was. There were some of us
that would go out and go to work and make money, and there were others of us that stayed home and did chores for -- you know, to take care of
everyone. My job was cooking breakfast for like 100 or 120 people sometimes. It was communal living situation, but it was more of a family
communal living because every single parent in that group was totally capable and willing to take care of anyone else`s children too. When
someone -- they say it takes a village, we did it. So we know, it works.
COSBY: But now, Kat, also in the midst of all this, and I know you`ve said -- you were saying before that you didn`t necessarily like David Koresh,
but you actually had intimate relations with him, correct?
SCHROEDER: I did.
COSBY: How did that happen? How did you reconcile that? Because you had your children, you were married, how did that happen? Was it just that he
had this sort of brainwashing effect on you and the others?
SCHROEDER: No. And because of the teachings and because of the King James Version of the holy bible, which is what we studied, day in and day out,
because of what we learned about God who sits on a throne, because of everything that we knew, I was no longer married. In the eyes of God, I
was married to God. I was living my life for God. This wasn`t about any human being, whatsoever. It wasn`t about Mike, it wasn`t about David, it
wasn`t even about me. It was about living my life for God.
[19:40:09] Being with David didn`t happen right away. I mean, even after the teaching came out that we were all married to David, it was a symbol of
being married to God, it still didn`t happen right away. It took a long time because there was a lot of learning that had to happen first.
COSBY: Yes, I can imagine. Now, how did your husband feel? How did your -- how did that come about? Did he feel awkward with that?
SCHROEDER: He felt awkward with that from day one, from when the new light originally came out. It didn`t have anything to do with when I was
actually with David. It happened, you know, probably a year before I was ever with David is when the new light came out. And it was hard on Mike,
it was hard on me. But there`s a lot of teachings about, like, not even having photos. Photos are idols, I guess, to a humanity that we were
supposed to be putting aside, living your life for God is not to live your life for yourself, not to put on makeup and try to be gorgeous or anything
like that. So photos were an element that we put them aside, right? And that was really difficult for Mike. So, he had to go through a ritual for
himself and burn these photos that he had of me. That`s just something he had to do for himself so he could get through it. But yes, it was hard.
But giving up television back in the beginning was hard, too, but once we did it, that was easy. I still don`t even hardly watch television.
COSBY: Well, I`m glad you`re out here on the show. Stay with us, if you could. We`re going to continue, fascinating to hear what life was like
inside the compound from somebody who survived and was there. Many more surprising details on the life inside the compound when we return.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KORESH: Pushing people around with guns, hey, I`ll meet you at the doorstep any day, you know, and somebody will get hurt. If you want to
keep playing that game, I`m talking to you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is referred to by people here as a cult, a heavily- armed cult. They made verbal contact when they went up to the house. And with no response from that, they -- people from inside the house opened
fire and they returned fire. And it was a pretty constant fire for about 45 minutes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was one agent on the roof that actually was shot through the walls of the compound.
KORESH: Now, the devil doesn`t care what you believe. As long as you`re not in line in regards to the thoughts of God.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby in for Ashleigh Banfield. We continue talking about the 25th anniversary of Waco. And my guests, still back with me
here, Branch Davidian member Kat Schroeder, and also former Waco Tribune Reporter Darlene McCormick Sanchez. Kat, I want to continue with you, it`s
so fascinating what you went through and what you experienced. I know the day of the raid, your husband was shot, he died. You`re inside with the
kids. I can`t imagine just how traumatic this whole thing must have been. And then you got the kids out soon after that. You got yourself soon out
after that. Are you glad that you got out, obviously, of the compound because soon after that, obviously, we all know what happened?
SCHROEDER: No, I`m actually not glad that I got out. That`s not it at all. I mean, I`m only out so that my children have me in their lives. The
-- my main goal is to be there for them because I personally would rather have died in that fire. I mean, people can`t understand, people have such
a hard time getting this mind-set, why didn`t we come out, why didn`t we come out? You know, the very first thing that I heard when two cattle
trailers of men come barrelling down our road and men jumping out in black, you know, full-body armor stuff with guns pointing, the first thing I hear
is them shoot our female dog and her four pups right in front of my window, you know? And then I spend the next -- OK, it`s 45 minutes, but to me it
felt like four hours, hiding my children on the floor so that I could try to keep them safe. I had no gun. I had no way to defend myself. A bullet
came six inches from my head.
COSBY: Kat, you understand that there were also reports of children being sexually abused, there were also reports of weapons inside. Do you
understand why the government did what they did?
SCHROEDER: No, I do not. The reports of this abuse was investigated by the Department in Texas, and they came out, Joyce Sparks, I think, they
came out, they investigated, and they found no abuse, OK? There was -- the bottom line is, is it legal to come to a residence and because someone is
doing something that you think is illegal, like having an illegal firearm - -
COSBY: But he was having sex with young -- but he was having sex with young girls, too, he was. I mean, he had --
[19:50:05] SCHROEDER: Does that give them the right to come -- does -- even if that were true, does that give them the right to come and shoot at
a building full of a hundred and some odd people and including women and children? Does that give them --
COSBY: No, they were trying to protect them. They felt they were trying to protect them. I want to ask, Kat, because I know --
SCHROEDER: They were shooting at them.
COSBY: And Kat, of course, the government has a different story.
SCHROEDER: They were shooting at them, not protecting them.
COSBY: But let me -- let me ask you because I know that you were one of the only ones from Branch Davidian who actually became a prosecution
witness. You spent three years in jail, you were in jail when the Davidian compound burnt down. What was your reaction?
SCHROEDER: That all of my friends were dying and I was in a room by myself with no one to support me. It was tough. Everyone I knew and loved was
dying. What do you want me to say?
COSBY: It must have been just so difficult. And what were you thoughts on David Koresh at this moment, the man who you said you didn`t like but you
had intimate relations with?
SCHROEDER: I didn`t like him as a person, as a human being. We butted heads, we were too much alike. But as an avenue to receive God`s word, he
was the only avenue that I had and he gave that information to us, all of us, and I was privileged to be able to receive it.
COSBY: Do you still feel privileged -- you told one of our producers before the show that you think you will see David Koresh again. Can you
explain that?
SCHROEDER: When the clouds open up in the sky and God returns in the heavens and decides to call all of his children home, yes, David will be
there.
COSBY: You believe you will see him again?
SCHROEDER: Absolutely.
COSBY: Wow. Let me go if I could --
SCHROEDER: As I will see Mike and everyone else.
COSBY: All right. Let me go to -- let me go to Darlene, if I could. Darlene, you hear this, you spoke to David Koresh, and when you hear Kat`s
story and just even still this intense belief in this man, but yet, an intense dislike of the man, what were your impressions when you spoke with
him on the phone?
DARLENE MCCORMICK-SANCHEZ, FORMER REPORTER, WACO TRIBUNE-HERALD: I thought that he was very charismatic. I can understand how you`re going to get
these different perspectives from different people who were in the compound. He certainly had a way with words. He --
COSBY: Are you surprised that here it is, years later, Kat who spent three years in jail, still allegiance to him?
SANCHEZ: I`m not. Because it really came down to once you were in that compound, you were either a believer or you weren`t, and if you were a
believer, you were totally in. And if you weren`t, you did everything in your power to get out of there. There were stories of people putting on
black outfits and crawling through the prairie grass to escape. So, you know, all these years later, it`s very apparent the grip that he had on his
followers.
COSBY: It`s amazing to hear and both of you -- I thank you both. It was truly fascinating to talk about it 25 years later. Thank you, both of you,
for being here and sharing your incredible insights.
And everybody, I want to remind you do not miss the HLN original series "HOW IT HAPPENED: WACO: GOD, GUNS, & THE GOVERNMENT" that`s airing
Sunday, April 22nd at 9:00 p.m. Eastern Time and we will be right back.
[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: Amanda Boxtel was an athlete, dancer, and avid skier but that all changed in the blink of an eye. Amanda then turned her pain into purpose
and she is this week`s CNN Hero.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANDA BOXTEL, CNN HERO: 26 years ago, I went out skiing and I remember I summersaulted and I landed on my back, and I knew in that instant that I
was paralyzed but I was determined to show that I wasn`t going to give up so easily. I was inspired to create a program that could gift mobility to
anyone that has a neurological impairment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: So uplifting and go to CNN Heroes to watch the full story or nominate someone that you think should be a CNN Hero. We`ll be back here
at Monday night at 6:00 p.m. Eastern Time. And everyone, be sure to catch me every weekday on WABC Radio or wabcradio.com 12:00 to 3:00 p.m. Eastern
Time weekdays on "Curtis And Cosby". Thanks for watching, everybody. "FORENSIC FILES" begins right now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Up next, they met in cyberspace.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was fishing for women on the internet.
END
