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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield

Waffle House Rampage; Killer Granny. Aired 6-8p ET

Aired April 23, 2018 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:00] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HOST, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE: Hi, everybody, I`m Ashleigh Banfield, welcome to "Crime and Justice." Tonight a suspected

killer is captured, the troubled 29-year-old accused of opening fire at a Tennessee Waffle House, killing four innocent people, injuring four others.

Our producer, Justin Freiman, is tracking the story. Justin, the details coming out about him are going to make people really angry.

JUSTIN FREIMAN, SR. PRODUCER, HLN CNN: That is right. We`ve been digging deep into his history and it raises the question, why did he have multiple

guns after his past?

BANFIELD: Another fugitive also in handcuffs, and I`m going to say finally on this one, she has been dubbed the gambling grandma. She is accused of

killing her own husband, in Minnesota, then driving to Florida to kill a look alike to steal her identity. Kyle Peltz is working this one for us.

Kyle, she was on the run for almost a month, but they caught her -- and they caught her in Texas.

KYLE PELTZ, CRIME AND JUSTICE PRODUCER: That is right. You`d think that after a week`s long manhunt, police would have to bust down a door or

something, but no, they found this woman just sitting at the bar, seemingly chatting up yet another woman.

BANFIELD: I hope she enjoyed that last meal of freedom anyway. We are going to check it into that in a moment, see the rest of the video.

And then, tonight. Texas city allow -- caught on camera, a less than honorable bit of behavior from a judge, whose treatment of a domestic

violence suspect turned the tables on her and brought trouble right up to the bench. Our Bernice Man is on it. Bernice, there is a sad ending to

this story as well.

BERNICE MAN, CRIME AND JUSTICE PRODUCER: There is Ashleigh. That 59 year- old disabled woman is now dead, days after the verbal beat down. And tonight we have that video. Did that Judge go too far? We`ll let you be

the Judge.

BANFIELD: All right. Bernice, thank you for that. We`ll look forward to that as well. We will check in on you I a moment.

Then this convenience store clerk putting a customer in a choke hold. But when you hear why, you`re going to think it`s a pretty good reason for it.

Show you that full video as well.

First, though, to Antioch, Tennessee. Where there is no good reason for an early morning massacre that took the lives of four innocent people. Four

innocent young people. There is however a suspect and he is finally in custody after roughly 36 very tense hours. 21-year-old, Travis Reinking,

finally apprehended. There he is in the back of the cruiser, and this is less than a mile from the Waffle House, where he is accused of pulling up

in a pickup truck about 3:30 in the morning wearing nothing but a jacket and opening fire on the staff and the patrons before fleeing the scene on

foot.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DON AARON, PUBLIC AFFAIRS MANAGER, NASHVILLE POLICE DEPARTMENT: At 1:07 this afternoon, Travis Reinking was taken into custody in a wooded area

near here by members of the Police Department, Specialized Investigation Division, Narcotics Unit. From his apprehension, he was taken to the south

precinct where he immediately requested a lawyer and refused to make a statement. Reinking has been taken to general hospital to be checked out

and then will be taken to the National Jail, where he will be booked on four counts of criminal homicide.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Police say that he had a loaded pistol in his backpack when he was caught today. Though it was an AR-15 rifle that he unloaded at the

Waffle House before a quick thinking customer took him down, a customer who is now being called a hero.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES SHAW JR., TACKLED GUNMAN: I saw my opportunity, my window. So I took it. And I ran through the door as fast as I can, and just kind of

jammed him up with the gun with it pointed down and then we started kind of wrestling for it and scuffling and fighting for it. And after -- he let it

go with one hand. And then when he just had it in his other hand I just took it, and I tossed it over the counter. And I pretty much removed him

out of the restaurant with myself and him. He kind of walked off by himself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Tonight Travis Reinking is behind bars, but four families are mourning the young lives that he allegedly took. And an entire country is

asking, why did this happen? And how did somebody with a history of mental issues, how is that person able to get his hands on a gun? And let`s make

that multiple guns.

With me CNN correspondent, Dianne Gallagher, and Antioch, Tennessee, defense attorney and author of "The Code," Parag Shah. Art Rodrick is also

with me, former assistant director of U.S. Marshall Service and CNN law enforcement analyst. Thank you to you guys for joining me. Really quickly

to you, Dianne Gallagher on this scene. A tip. It was a tip that led to this suspect?

DIANNE GALLAGHER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That is right. There is a tip from a construction worker about a mile away from where this crime

actually happened, not too far from the suspect`s apartment. They noticed somebody who kind of resembled those pictures they`d been seeing. They

weren`t entirely sure, but they called it in anyway.

[18:05:05] And that is when they sent a Narcotics Team over to this wooded area, this construction site there. They send the Narcotics Team out, they

spread out. They went searching for him. One of those agents, Ashleigh, saw the suspect, said he immediately recognized him, and that he didn`t do

anything. He just fell to the ground. They were able to handcuff him. He didn`t speak really, was very docile about it. He was wearing completely

different clothes. I`m sure you guys are able to see these pictures that the police tweeted out at this point.

Remember, as we talked about, he was naked during this crime according to police. And afterward the only time he`d been spotted was about an hour

after the crime actually happened and he was only wearing black pants, he had no shoes on, he had a shirt on. So this was a fully clothed man with a

backpack, Ashleigh, and inside that backpack was a loaded handgun, as well as his driver`s license from Colorado.

Police say they cut it off, handcuffed him as soon as they got him. And he said, he wanted to talk to his lawyer, and didn`t say anything else.

BANFIELD: Dianne, he had a history of mental illness, a lot of that while he has been on the run has been outlined by the national media. And in

fact, the guns that he had originally were taken away. The FBI today was asked about this. And I want to play something that the FBI had to say

about his past mental health illness issues and also their role in all of this. Have a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEW ESPENSHADE, FBI ASSISTANT AGENT: I can tell you from our perspective, after the incident at the White House, and the assessment that

happened in the Springfield Office, that every federal resource was brought to bear, and that we were able to effectively neutralize what we felt was

the threat at the time by ensuring that he did not have the ability to purchase our own weapons and that those weapons were taken.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So, listen, Dianne, those weapons were taken. He is right. But those weapons were given to his father. And apparently that father, if we

have the facts right, gave those weapons back to him. I`m going to get into that in a moment. But first I think it`s critical to have the context

of this young man`s mental illness over the last two years or so. And I want to start with May of 2016.

He told his parents that Taylor Swift was stalking him. Then about a year later in June of 2017, a witness, it may have been a neighbor, saw him

wearing a pink dress, throwing a gun into the trunk of a car, and going to perhaps a local pool. The people at the local pool saw him jump into the

pool and then eventually disrobe himself of that pink dress and expose his genitals.

About a month later he was arrested at the White House, apparently trying to meet President Trump. And about a month after that, in August of 2017,

he told police that -- he told police that people were tapping his computer and his phone, which led in that month to the authorities seizing the

firearms.

Diane, how did he get the firearms back, and what is the role of his father in all of this?

GALLAGHER: Ashleigh -- that is the role of his father. His father gave him the firearms back. The State of Illinois revoked his authorization to

have those firearms. They then confiscated those firearms, they basically seized them from him, but then later, based upon state law, they gave them

back to his father. Now, he was supposed to keep them away from his son. But he admitted to police, at least according to what we have been told by

both Federal and state authorities, that he gave them back to his son.

And that AR-15, police say, was used in the crime here at this Waffle House. That handgun that they also seized was the one they found in the

backpack according to police. And then they found two of those long guns in his apartment when they searched it after the crime at the Waffle House.

So, they were given back to him by his father, and according to authorities they were used to murder four people.

BANFIELD: And there`s that backpack. I just wanted just alert people, Dianne you were talking or you were showing that picture of the backpack

where the pistol was found ultimately one of the pistols that they believe is what had been confiscated from him originally, because of his mental

health issues. Diane, stand by for a minute. I want to bring in Art Roderick, if I can.

Art, there`s another component of this story -- that kind of came out of left field a little bit. But it has to do with last Tuesday.

ART RODERICK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALSYT: Right.

BANFIELD: And let`s be really clear that last Tuesday, the Waffle House incident had not happened. There was a quadruple murder. This was just a

guy who walked into a BMW dealership, somehow got a key fob and stole a BMW. I`ve got some dash cam video of the police chase that ensued, and

some still pictures of him at the BMW dealership. It turns out it was Travis Reinking, at the BMW dealership. The police released the chase

video where they were chasing after the stolen BMW.

[18:10:00] Ultimately, Art, they decided to abandon this chase. Because it was busy. They said there were too many people, too much of a populated

area, and the BMW had a GPS monitoring system anyway.

So, they didn`t feel at the time that there was any need to chase some random car thief through a busy area. But ultimately they discovered it

wasn`t some random car thief, it was a guy who allegedly would go on several days later to shoot four people. Does any of this -- does any of

what you are seeing play into the story, or is there far bigger fish to fry, all throughout the story?

RODERICK: I think, you have to go way back, you have to go back and look at the family who knew, you know, per documentation, that as early as 2016

that he had some real psychological issues. And I`ll tell you that once the weapons were confiscated and turned over to the father, it`s against

Federal Law to give firearms to a person that is not legally supposed to have them.

And his license at the time, or his permit to carry had been revoked. That is very confusing, because we`re talking State Law and Federal Law. And

each one has some guidance in the issuing of permits and also in the purchase of firearms. So there`s going to be a lot of legal statutes to go

through to look at this. But he did violate Federal Law by giving those firearms, the father violated Federal Law by giving the firearms back to

his son.

BANFIELD: So let`s get Parag Shah to jump in here, don`t go anywhere though Art, I have more question for you.

RODERICK: Sure.

BANFIELD: Parag, does that mean that dad`s going to face charges for doing what Art just said, he could not do?

PARAG SHAH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He could. He could potentially be facing federal charges if he is correct about the Federal Law. But above all

that, I mean, the father is clearly negligent as well. He civilly negligent and, I think, what he did may rise to criminal negligence which

maybe an avenue for criminal charges.

BANFIELD: OK, Parag, don`t go anywhere. There`s a little bit that I want you to hear from the arrest. Because when the arrest happened, Carlos Lara

said this about the suspect. And I think you`ve probably seen the pictures of the suspect. His clothes are ripped on either side. He is wearing a

burgundy shirt, very little resistance when they got him out of the woods. It`s interesting to note what he is wearing. And I`ll get into that in a

moment, but first, listen to Carlos Lara in terms of how the arrest went down.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARLOS LARA, METRO NASHVILLE POLICE DEPARTMENT: As soon as the detective saw him, there was really no communication other than, you know, the

detective drawing down on him and he got on the ground and prone out and was taken into custody.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He did not try to resist?

LARA: Not at all. Not that I know, sir.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So Art Roderick, listen, when you`re tracking someone who`s armed and dangerous, and clearly has -- suffers from mental illness, you

find him in different clothes, is that really the Achilles heel? Eventually they need supplies, he may have come out of the woods, but at

some point, he needed something to wear, he probably needed something to eat and he probably needed something to drink, do you think that is why

they may have caught him?

RODERICK: I think that is exactly why. But I also think that there was some planning involved here. Because the 8:30 sighting that we see, he is

just in the black pants on the edge of the wood line. Now, did he prior to this stash some clothing, the backpack and the handgun into a camp area

that was covered where law enforcement couldn`t find it all night during the search?

Now, we also have to remember that there was really heavy rain yesterday evening, which would have made the search a lot more difficult for law

enforcement, for k-9 and for air support. So it rained a lot all last night and then through this morning. And then of course, he is caught this

afternoon, either trying to come out and get some more supplies. But he gave up without a fight, thank goodness.

BANFIELD: Yes. Stand by if you will for a moment. With me now is Abede DaSilva, he is the brother of one of the victims in that shooting. The

victim Akilah, also Lancelot DaSilva, Akilah`s cousin. Thank you to both of you. I am so sorry for the loss of your family member. I`d just like

to get your reaction to the fact that the suspect has finally been caught.

LANCELOT DASILVA, COUSIN OF VICTIM, AKILAH DASILVA: So we are definitely relieved that the customer has been -- or the assailant has been caught,

because that is no more lives that he can take and no more families that he can impact. However, these incidents are occurring far too many times, and

I`m still kind of in shock, and almost living life in fear having to look over your shoulders and not sure what you can, you know, really do in this

society without feeling like your life is in danger.

BANFIELD: I think a lot of people share your sentiments. I personally report far too often on stories like this. Abade, I do want to ask you

about your brother Akilah`s girlfriend, because she was with him and she was also hurt. And apparently she is in the hospital, I don`t know if she

is still in the hospital, do you have an update on her condition?

[18:15:07] ABEDE DASILVA, BROTHER OF VICTIM, AKILAH DASILVA: Yes. We just left from the hospital from seeing her. She had surgery. She has to go

back through surgery. She is alive, you know, and it`s hard for her to process right now everything and, you know, she is trying to get through it

right now.

BANFIELD: And how are you getting through all of this?

A. DASILVA: Well, you know, I`m just taking it a day at a time. It just feels unreal, because it was just -- that it happened, and, you know, I`m

just trying to stay strong. The family`s supportive, a lot of friends are supportive, Akilah had a lot of love and support out here in the city, and

they really showed him love, so we thank you for that, we thank you for the support that everyone`s been showing, and spreading light on this

situation. And -- yes, I`m just -- I`m just -- that is what`s keeping me motivated, the support I`m getting from family and friends. The love is

really there.

BANFIELD: You know, there was a hero in this story as well, Abade, and that was a man named James Shaw Jr., who, and I may have the facts slightly

off, but for the most part the description has been that James Shaw Jr. saw a chance, he saw an opportunity, possibly during a reload, to attack and

grab that rifle and threw it and stopped the danger before possibly 20 other people might have been hurt as well. And I don`t know if it`s small

consolation, as you`ve lost your brother, but it must mean something that somebody was there to just try.

L. DASILVA: Yes.

A. DASILVA: Yes. I was there with him also. So I was just talking to his girlfriend, and she was telling me she just seen when he came in and she

said he -- you know, a guy didn`t privately stop him that he probably was just going to -- just reload and start shooting at her. So we were

thankful. I know I lost my brother. But, you know, thankful that, you know, that he can do that and, you know, he saved some lives. It wasn`t

everyone. Because I couldn`t be here right now, his girlfriend couldn`t be here right now. So we are thankful for him for making that courageous

move.

BANFIELD: Yes, and he was injured as well. I mean, he was grazed by a bullet, we are showing the video of him, you know, after being treated. He

burned his hands as well by grabbing the muzzle which was hot.

A. DASILVA: Yes.

L. DASILVA: Yes.

BANFIELD: It had just been firing. So, you know, god bless him. And god bless you and your families as well. You have joined a club you did not

ask to be a part of, and there are just too many Americans, victims and victims` family members of shooting. And I am so sorry for your loss and I

do appreciate you bringing your brother to life for us on television and letting people know that he is important and he shouldn`t be forgotten nor

should the other three victims with that shooting who left us as well. Thank you to both of you.

L. DASILVA: Absolutely.

A. DASILVA: Thank you.

BANFIELD: Abede DaSilva, and Lancelot DaSilva joining us as well. My thanks to Dianne Gallagher, Art Roderick and Parag Shah. We are going to

continue to follow that story in about 40 minutes when another update for you as well.

And in the meantime, the hunt for an accused killer grandmother has finally, finally come to an end. And this is what it looked like. That is

her. Looks like she hasn`t a care in the world. And it kind of sounded from everybody in that restaurant that she didn`t. But Lois Riess, well,

she is going to have to care a lot more, because you`re about to find out what she is facing.

[18:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Here`s some weird advice, and it`s kind of theoretical here. If you`re the subject of a nationwide manhunt, might be an idea to change your

appearance, maybe dye your hair, wear a wig, maybe, I don`t know, go into hiding somewhere where you`d at least be expected to be hanging out. Worst

advice ever, walk into your favorite kind of joint with a big old smile plastered on your face. That is what Lois Riess decided to do. And now

Lois Reiss has just enjoyed her very last fancy meal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Maybe she thought it was a small island that she would kind of just blend in which turned out to be the exact opposite for

her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can`t imagine somebody would pick an island, if you are running from a law, it is not really the best place to be. There`s

only one bridge on and off the island.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So not much of an escape route, but quite frankly it didn`t really come to that. It`s a pretty good thing that Lois Reiss washed up at

the South Texas resort town, because she is accused of killing her husband at least a month ago, way up in Minnesota. And then driving all the way

down to Florida. She is accused of killing a woman who looked just like her. After chatting her up and flipping her hair at a bar.

[18:25:00] And by the way, the bar thing is exactly what Lois Riess was doing when the cops came in to cuff her and lead her away. And according

to what her bartender told Today`s Show, the gambling granny seemed to be burning through some pretty big cash.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She said I have a hundred dollar bill, I don`t have anything smaller, would that be OK? And I said, no problem, and I looked

up and the next thing you know, she was being led out of the bar with her hands tied behind her back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: And cuffs is going to be a new normal for her. With me now, defense attorney and author of "The Code," Parag Shaw. Reporter with the

Minneapolis Star Tribune, Tim Harlow, has been following this every step of the way, he is live with me. And George Higginbotham. George was the one

who alerted the authorities to Lois Riess in South Padre Island leading us to see the pictures we saw.

Lois Reiss is finally ending that whole cross country episode. It`s now in the hands of the justice system. So, Tim, let me begin with you, if I can.

I`ve got to say, I did not expect it to end this way. I didn`t expect it to be so calm and quiet and sort of normal.

There she is. She looks exactly as she has during this nationwide manhunt. She is doing exactly what she is alleged to have done in Florida, chatted

up some woman next to her at a bar restaurant, flipping her hair, enjoying herself. And it ended with cuffs behind her. And she was walked out.

Were you surprised?

TIM HARLOW, REPORTER, STAR TRIBUNE: I was a little bit surprised, yes. I thought she would put up a little more resistance than what she did. Based

on her M.O., I guess it`s not surprising that she was found in a bar and restaurant.

BANFIELD: I think she really liked those places as well as gambling venues too, because she was spotted along the way in some gambling venues,

apparently she won some money in a gambling venue along the way as well. I want to play for you if you can, what the Lee County Undersheriff, Carmine

Marceno, said about her and particularly as pertains to her appearance. All week long we`ve been calling her the gambling granny, the woman who

looks like anybody, putting her picture all over the news. And we are not the only ones, cable and network and local. She was everywhere with her

simple, you know, blond bob, and her simple outfits, and yet this is how she chose to keep her appearance, have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNDERSHERIFF CARMINE MARCENO, LEE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Sometimes when people run they try to alter their appearance, change their hair color, and

do something. None of that here. Absolutely. As you can see, in our video surveillance, when she befriends Pam Hutchinson, our victim,

unfortunately she is smiling. So what does that tell you about her? That she is not -- she is running, but guess what, she is not changing her

appearance, she is living life one day, signing the victim`s credit card in her name, the next her own. So this is a stone cold killer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So, Tim, I was fascinated to hear the police in South Padre Island to say that she was there, quote, with friends. I`m not so sure

that these were new friends, or old friends, or friends who are helping her. Do you have any insight as to what the police meant when they said

she arrived at this place with friends?

HARLOW: Based on the surveillance, I mean, it looked like she was just chatting up friends who happened to be there. I don`t think she really

knew these people. But she wasn`t sitting alone. And I think in the loose sense of the word they were calling those people friends.

BANFIELD: With her mug shot it`s hard to believe that this is the woman who could be facing two murder cases in two different states. And may I

remind you one of those states is Florida that carries with it a maximum penalty of the death penalty? Right now she is only facing second degree

murder in Florida, and you know how it goes, charges can always be changed, upgraded, downgraded, added to, but if it ends up being first degree murder

in Florida, the death penalty is certainly a reality in that state. She was apparently staying at a local motel and there they found two pistols, a

.22 and a nine millimeter at her hotel room. So it`s kind of interesting to see this smiling mug shot, shocking maybe you might say. Here`s Randy

Smith from South Padre Island police talking a little bit about that mug shot.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was she eating alone?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m curious, I know in her mug shot, she seem almost smug. Did she say anything when she was getting?

RANDY SMITH, SOUTH PADRE ISLAND POLICE DEPARTMENT: No, from what I understand, she remained very silent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So one of the other shocking aspects of the story, Tim, is what happened the day that Lois`s husband was found dead? She apparently that

very same day was cashing checks that she`d written to herself out of his - - ultimately out of his account. What else did they see her do that day?

HARLOW: It is reported that she had gone to the Diamond Joe Casino, which is just across the border from Minnesota. It`s in Iowa. And that she spent

the day gambling there. And right before she left, she went across the street to a gas station, purchased a sandwich and asked the clerk for

directions. I think the quote was, if you were going to head south, would I-35 be the way to go? Something very similar to that.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CRIME AND JUSTICE SHOW HOST, HLN: I think we have the audio on that tape. Let`s rerun that video that we just ran. Crank up the

audio. Let`s see if we can hear her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LOIS RIESS, ALLEGEDLY KILLED HUSBAND AND A WOMAN: If you want to start heading south, would you take 35 south? Just to keep going on down to the

next state?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): Yes.

RIESS: Is that the way to go, you think?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): I think so. Because I think that goes -- 35 goes through -- it goes down past Omaha and all that.

RIESS: OK, well, thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Thank you. She just sounds so nice and you would never assume that that`s a murder suspect. It`s just astounding to see. P.S., there are

apps for that. You know, once again, and the advice to people who are trying to escape being caught, you might not want to make your presence

known asking for directions how to get out of town.

Tim, there`s something interesting from your reporting that I saw. The incident in Texas where the victim, Pamela Hutchinson, was murdered for

which now this woman, Lois Riess, is facing second-degree murder. There is this very famous now clip of her flipping her hair in the restaurant where

she`s chatting up Pamela Hutchinson.

Everybody thinks that now it`s obvious that it was because Pam looked like her that that`s why she had targeted her. But you also noted that Pam

picked up the tab. So ultimately in this moment that we`re seeing right here, Pam is paying for Lois`s drinks. Tim, are you there?

HARLOW (via telephone): Yes, yes, that`s right, yes, she was. And you assume that -- you know, Lois has this ability to kind of charm people,

warm up to people, and probably convinced Hutchinson to pick up the tab.

Maybe she gave some kind of a sob story that she didn`t have any money or she was down on her luck because she lost her husband. We don`t know. But

it`s interesting that she got Pamela to pay for that evening.

BANFIELD: Well, she may have been charming with her hair flipping and all the rest, but the hair flipping may have just been her Achilles, which

brings me to George Higginbotham. George, you are with the establishment Dirty Al`s, I think very close to the establishment where Lois was

arrested. And she came into your establishment first and something didn`t sit right with you. Take me from there.

GEORGE HIGGINBOTHAM, ALERTED AUTHORITIES OF LOIS RIESS (via telephone): Well, when she walked in, I could see her white hair when she was looking

at one of our menus. And when she put the menu down, she turned and she kind flipped her hair, and that`s when she started walking out.

I mentioned that to one of my coworkers. I said, that`s her, that`s her. So that`s when she went outside. We tried to get a tag in the car and we

called SPI and then we called U.S. Marshals.

BANFIELD: She is driving the white Acura that belonged to Pamela Hutchinson?

HIGGINBOTHAM (via telephone): Correct.

BANFIELD: You saw the car?

HIGGINBOTHAM (via telephone): Yes.

BANFIELD: Really? Yes, she was not trying to stay under the radar after all this press coverage? You yourself saw.

HIGGINBOTHAM (via telephone): Yes. She come in with a smile and she was having a good time, I guess.

BANFIELD: Did you talk to her?

HIGGINBOTHAM (via telephone): No, no, my server was talking to her about the menu and what was served. I was just standing and watching her.

BANFIELD: You were standing there and watching her. So walks through the door. We are looking at the video now. Did you instantly recognize her from

the TV coverage or did it take a while?

HIGGINBOTHAM (via telephone): No, what really -- the white hair was going off. When she flipped it and went around, that`s what caught me. The white

hair.

BANFIELD: George, if she had dyed or cut her hair, would you not have given her the time of day? Would she have been able to make it past this

moment where you alerted the police and they caught her at the other restaurant that she went to?

HIGGINBOTHAM (via telephone): I probably wouldn`t have recognized her.

BANFIELD: It would have made that big a difference, right?

HIGGINBOTHAM (via telephone): Oh, yes, yes.

BANFIELD: And you`re right across like just down the street, it seems, right, from the Sea Ranch, you`re at Dirty Al`s.

HIGGINBOTHAM (via telephone): A block.

BANFIELD: You`re a block away?

HIGGINBOTHAM (via telephone): Correct.

BANFIELD: So it didn`t take them very long to go from your spotting, your sighting, they must have found a car then. Do you think that`s how they got

to the Sea Ranch and found her there?

HIGGINBOTHAM (via telephone): When the marshal showed up at our store, I mentioned that she went to the north. I don`t know if she went one block,

two blocks.

[18:35:02] The female U.S. marshal drove next door. I assumed that`s where they found the car.

BANFIELD: That`s unbelievable. Well, listen, thank you, George. Thank you for watching your news programs and the images of Lois Riess flipping her

hair, that blond hair that stood out. And thank you for seeing something and saying something because your tip could very well be the reason she`s

off the streets and may never, ever make it back onto the streets again.

Ultimately we still have to wait to find out in Minneapolis whether charges will be forthcoming there. They are also researching second-degree murder

in Minnesota. So George Higginbotham, thank you for that. My thanks to Tim Harlow as well, a reporter for the Star Tribune. He has been doing such

great work. Killer granny story. Can you believe it? Same blond hair flipping, dumb-dumb.

In our justice system, we look at judges with a lot of reverence. Usually we see them as models of civility and fairness. That`s why they get the

job, right? But one judge in Florida gave a defendant a verbal beat down at this court moment. And now that woman is dead. And the judge will not be

hearing cases anytime soon. That is next.

[18:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Sandra Twiggs was suspected of domestic violence. Sometimes that happens. In her case, it was after a family argument. But in her

wheelchair, when she was wheeled up to the podium for her court appearance in Florida, she kind of started coughing and sort of sputtering through her

answers.

And that would make sense because Sandra has been suffering from intense medical issues. So you can imagine the last thing that Sandra would expect

was to become the victim of a verbal attack from the bench. The likes of which are rarely seen from people we appoint to the top tiers of our legal

system.

But this attack came right from the judge. And I`m going to play it for you. But I just want to kind of get you warmed up a little to it. Because

when it starts, you probably think, yeah, you oversold it, wasn`t that big a deal. But you need to just wait. Because boy does it pick up steam.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MERRILEE EHRLICH, CIRCUIT JUDGE, BROWARD COUNTY: I`ve read the probable cause affidavit.

SANDRA TWIGGS, SUSPECTED OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE: Yes, ma`am.

EHRLICH: You don`t have to respond to each thing, but thank you.

TWIGGS: Thank you.

EHRLICH: Priors, relevant priors, recent priors.

TWIGGS: None.

EHRLICH: Excuse me, ma`am, I`m asking my courtroom staff. That`s OK, I`ll let you know each time I`m talking to you.

TWIGGS: OK, I`m sorry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And Ms. Twiggs, the one before us this morning, filed a restraining order against the boyfriend, and I did verify that I do have

the actual case number that was --

EHRLICH: Excuse me. A temporary restraining order civil, against her sister?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, against the boyfriend of the daughter.

EHRLICH: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Which apparently the boyfriend --

EHRLICH: Which at this juncture, would become moot because she can`t bring it any longer on behalf of her adult daughter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just wanted to alert the court as to what was going on.

EHRLICH: I appreciate that. But whether she likes the boyfriend, I don`t know who is house this is, I don`t know if she`s in a position to evict --

excuse me, don`t tell me. I don`t know if she`s in a position to evict her. But if so she has to do it properly. And does your daughter live with you,

ma`am?

TWIGGS: Yes, yes, ma`am. But she also --

EHRLICH: Excuse me, don`t say anything beyond what I am asking you. Trust me, I am -- ma`am, ma`am, ma`am --

TWIGGS: She lives with my daughter.

EHRLICH: She lives with who?

TWIGGS: She lives with me and she lives with my daughter in Miami.

EHRLICH: Is that a different location?

TWIGGS: Yes --

EHRLICH: Excuse me, counsel, can you please -- is there any way you can on the phone talk to these people?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I spoke to Ms. Twiggs. I believe --

EHRLICH: I know that. But while proceedings are ongoing, can you speak to them or no?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The phone`s off to the side. It can`t do both.

EHRLICH: I`m just trying -- first of all -- attorneys, don`t interrupt the court. And listen to what the court says because it may answer your

questions. Ma`am, my one question to you, can someone there give her water as a kindness? Does your daughter, who has been living with you, which this

case is about, help you in the home? Do you need her help? Yes or no.

TWIGGS: Yes.

[18:45:00] EHRLICH: Do you want her to stay in the home but have no harmful contact with you?

TWIGGS: Absolutely, yes, ma`am. Yes, your honor. I --

EHRLICH: Excuse me.

TWIGGS: I`m sorry.

EHRLICH: Excuse me. Ma`am, do you want -- I don`t know they didn`t make her a medical reset.

TWIGGS: Yes, your honor.

EHRLICH: Instead of money, do you want to be supervised by pretrial release?

TWIGGS: Yes, ma`am. Yes, I am. Yes, your honor.

EHRLICH: Listen. Say it again. Do you have a microphone?

TWIGGS: I don`t know what to say.

EHRLICH: You`ve already said too much, listen, please. Ma`am, listen to me. Listen. Don`t answer yes, just listen. Can you hear me? Do you

understand me?

TWIGGS: Yes.

EHRLICH: I want you -- you will get paperwork today before you`re released from the jail. It will say that you have to check in with pretrial services

by noon on Monday. You have to arrange for someone to carry you there if you can`t get there yourself. And they will give you the further

instructions about checking in. Do you understand me?

TWIGGS: Yes.

EHRLICH: Good. Thank you. You can return her.

TWIGGS: Does that mean I can go home?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: So, I don`t know if you thought that was bad. But she was just getting started, that judge. And I want you to wait and hear how Judge

Ehrlich responds when Sandra Twiggs, woman in the wheelchair, actually has to ask for help with her breathing treatment. That`s next.

[18:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EHRLICH: Does your daughter live with you, ma`am?

TWIGGS: Yes, yes, ma`am. But she also --

EHRLICH: Excuse me, don`t say anything beyond what I am asking you. Trust me, I am -- ma`am, ma`am, ma`am.

TWIGGS: She lives with my daughter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: We`re still talking about that cut throat courtroom hearing, the not so honorable Florida judge who just laid into that disabled woman or

should I say former judge? Because this lady, Judge Merrilee Ehrlich just stepped down from the bench, that after giving that woman who suffers from

asthma, diabetes, and pulmonary disease, a total verbal beat down.

Judge may have lost her job because we now know she is taking early retirement. But in a tragic twist of fate, Sandra Twiggs lost her life. Her

friend said she came home from that hearing, starving and dizzy and breathless, struggling to get her medication while she was in jail,

something she actually tried to outline to this judge while sitting in that spot right there. The judge, however, was having none of it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EHRLICH: Ma`am, do you need water? Just nod your head.

TWIGGS: Yes, I do. And I have breathing treatment.

EHRLICH: Ma`am, I am not here to talk to you about your breathing treatment. That is -- excuse me, oh, lord. Will you say something, counsel?

Be in the microphone so that she can hear you and you can give her instructions. About propriety in court. I`m not going to spend all day with

her interrupting me. It`s your turn to speak, counsel.

TWIGGS: I`m sorry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ms. Twiggs, just stay silent for a moment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Yeah, don`t worry about your breathing or anything. Sandra Twiggs may have been on death`s doorstep, but her family says it was that

hearing that killed her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNA TWIGGS, SISTER OF VICTIM: She said they treated me so bad. And she said all I wanted was some medical attention and some help.

CAROLYN TWIGGS, SISTER OF VICTIM: To see a person begging you for help and trying to talk to you, and you treating them like a dog for what reason?

If that judge is listening to us and looking at us, I hope you can sleep at night knowing that you killed her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Defense Attorney Parag Shah, author of "The Code" is with me. You know, the first thing people would think is that if they have some

recourse, maybe a wrongful death suit, but they don`t, do they?

PARAG SHAH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. The judge here has what`s called judicial immunity which means that if she was acting as her role as a judge

within her jurisdiction, then she can`t be sued, unless there is some exception in state law, but no, she can`t be sued for wrongful death,

unfortunately. And her behavior was egregious.

BANFIELD: Yes. She`s off the bench now. There`s a little bit of justice for all of us. I`m disgusted by that. Thank you, Parag. Stay tuned. Don`t

go anywhere. We love just love to see criminals getting their due here at "Crime and Justice" but for this guy, when he decided to go after a store

clerk in Florida, he got a little more than he expected in terms of justice he delivered.

[18:55:00] Yeah, wait for this one.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

One more thing for you tonight.

[19:00:00] A clerk in a convenience store in Florida wasn`t having any of it when she saw a customer helping himself to what we call that five finger

discount. So she called him out on it. And then he promptly decked her in the face. And you would think that would be jarring enough to let him go,

right.

But no, because this is what she did. She went full WWE jumping on his back. Trying to get him on a chokehold. Police say despite all of this,

he was still able to get away. But -- and it`s a good but, he was picked up last week. And now that feller not going to be robbing any convenience

stores in the next little while because he was arrested. And he is now facing charges. And we saw you naked.

Next hour of Crime & Justice starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD (voice-over): A suspected killer in handcuffs, after 35 hours on the run.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After walking through the woods, one of our detectives noticed a person, the suspect, in the front -- the suspect turned around,

he got on the ground immediately.

BANFIELD: Police stay he stripped down and opened fire at a waffle house.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This lunatic in a pickup pulled up --

BANFIELD: Killing four innocent people.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He shot a customer who was about to go in the door, and then he shot my friend.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Glass wounds on their faces.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I still doesn`t feel real.

BANFIELD: So why would he do it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He shows signs of significant instability.

BANFIELD: And what signs from the past could have prevented this massacre?

Plus, the last call for losing streak Lois.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You wouldn`t think that there would be a wanted fugitive sitting at the bar here on South Padre Island.

BANFIELD: Across country manhunt comes to a close thanks to the restaurant staff who recognized a woman accused of murder.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know this is the lady. She was enjoying herself, just unreal for a person supposed to be on the run. She wasn`t acting like

that.

BANFIELD: We take you to the Texas resort town where this gambling granny really took a chance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you are running from the law it`s not really the best place to be. There`s only one bridge on and off the island.

BANFIELD: The jaw dropping behavior from a judge, who presided over a sick suspect like this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ma`am, ma`am --

BANFIELD: Now that woman is dead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Excuse me -- oh, counsel, can you please -- is there any way you can on the phone talk to these people?

BANFIELD: And that judge is the one who is in trouble.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: Good evening, everyone, I`m Ashleigh Banfield. Welcome to the second hour of CRIME & JUSTICE.

Tonight in Tennessee, the manhunt for a killer is over. And the questions are just beginning. Chief among them, why did a 29-year-old man pull up to

a waffle house at 3:30 in the morning wearing nothing but a jacket and allegedly open fire on customers killing four of them? And how did he get

a gun when all of his had been taken away beforehand?

Tonight we can start getting the answers for the families of those four young people who were taken from us. And the four victims who are still in

the hospital. Because a day and a half on the run, a nerve wracking day and a half for the people of Nashville, Travis Reinking has officially been

arrested.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. CARLOS LARA, METRO NASHVILLE POLICE DEPARTMENT: As soon as the detective saw him, there was really no communication other than, you know,

the detective going down on him and he got on the ground and poned out and was taken into custody.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did not try to resist.

LARA: Not at all. Not that I know, sir.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Travis Reinking was spotted by police in the woods less than a mile away from the waffle house. And in his backpack, a pistol. Not the

AR-15 style rifle he used in the massacre allegedly. For which by the way he is now charged with murder, four counts. But one of four firearms that

Reinking was not supposed to have. And now he might not be the only one facing charges. Because his father is fessing up to having given those

guns back to his son.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are looking at him for potential violations of federal firearm laws or obviously the homicide he committed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He could face charges.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He potentially could. He should not have had weapons. Correct.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In Tennessee?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In Tennessee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: With me now is CNN national correspondent Dianne Gallagher. She is outside that waffle house in Antioch, Tennessee. Defense attorney and

author of "the Code," Parag Shaw is with me. Art Roderick who is the former assistant director of U.S. Marshals service and CNN law enforcement

analyst joins us live. And Daniel Bober, a forensic psychiatrist is with us on the phone.

Questions for all of you but I`m going to start with you, Dianne. We have got some new video of apparently Travis Reinking who is being arrested.

And we often in the business call it the perp walk but it can be any number of places. It can be, you know, from the scene to the car. From the car

to the jail. I`m not sure where this is. I just know it is from Nashville, from WKRN.

Where is he now? What do we know about him? What is he in terms of the -- where is he in the chain of prosecution at this time?

[19:05:19] DIANNE GALLAGHER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So Ashleigh, at last check, he was actually on the way to the jail. He spent quite a bit

of time at one of the hospitals in Nashville. They took him there after sort of bringing him into one of the precincts. Then they took him to the

hospital. He has been there for quite a bit of time. So you may be looking, I`m not sure again which video it is. There are several of these

perp walks out there right now.

Some of them are actually videos of him in the hospital coming out, being put back into that car and taken to the jail there. So he is going to be -

he is facing at least four criminal homicide charges. He has not appeared in front of a judge at this point. We are still trying determine whether

or not that is going to happen tonight or tomorrow morning. Authorities, of course, Ashleigh, just kind of glad - they are very glad he is off the

streets right now.

BANFIELD: And Dianne, that`s exactly what we were looking at. The -- clearly he had some kind of a medical checkup. What his injuries are, we

do not know. We do know he has quite a history of mental illness. I doubt that`s what they were checking him out for. But you know, a day and a half

on the run in the woods, and maybe there -- without clothes, I should add, and maybe there was some need for some kind of a medical checkup.

But there he is wearing what looks like hospital clothing, certainly not the clothing he was wearing when he was arrested.

A whole other issue, Dianne, because he was wearing no clothing at the waffle house. When he was last seen he came into that waffle house wearing

a jacket and nothing else. And ultimately threw that jacket. So when he left that waffle house, my understanding is that he was stark naked. And

what`s significant about the jacket left behind is there were two more magazines that were found in that jacket.

Had he not been stopped by a heroic man who wrestled that AR-15 rifle out of his hands, James Shaw Jr., are they suggesting it`s possible -- and

there`s James Shaw Jr. There also injured in the attack, are they suggesting there were additional magazines that may have been used on those

20-some-odd customers in that waffle house?

GALLAGHER: Yes, Ashleigh. The police have not been shy about saying that James Shaw Jr., whether he likes it or not, he is a hero. That he saved

lives that night. Because not only did he wrestle the gun away from him, but James Shaw Jr. says that he believes that the pause that he was looking

for in -- when he decided to kind of come out, use that swivel door, to knock him down and get the gun away from him, he thinks that he was

stopping to try and reload, to insert perhaps another one in. He was looking to maybe continue that. Instead he got the gun over, pushed it

over the counter, and then pushed Reinking out of the waffle house there.

And Ashleigh, they found even more ammunition in the backpack when police arrested him in the woods. Again, not too far from here this afternoon.

He had a loaded handgun. And then he had additional ammunition inside that backpack as well.

So on top of that night in the waffle house, police also pointing to the fact that, I mean, look, he was out there. He was armed. He was

dangerous. And potentially could have done even more damage.

BANFIELD: And that backpack we keep referring to, we see the pictures of it. It looks sort of more like a courier bag. Something you would string

across your body. But that`s the images that we are getting in from the metro national police department of the bag that was found.

Dianne, hold for one second. I want to play something from one of the witnesses who was interviewed about all of this. And it has a lot to do

with the mental illness that plays such a huge part in this story. This is Chuck Cordero talking about this particular suspect. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHUCK CORDERO, WITNESS: If you`re naked driving around in a pickup within assault rifle. You have got a screw loose. There is something going on.

I mean, I don`t think he targeted anybody here. But he definitely found a place that was open at that hour that had a lot of people in it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So you hear the witness account. And then you get the facts. And this is a timeline of someone who has been troubled for at least two

years. I`m going to take you at least to May 2016. Because that`s the only, you know, qualified incident of, you know, mental disturbance this

young man had.

He told his parents back in May 2016 that Taylor Swift was stalking him. About a year later in 2017, in June, he was seen coming out of a home,

could have been his actually, but he was wearing a pink dress, he threw what look like some kind of a long gun into the trunk of a car and took

off. He was later spotted in that same incident at a pool, a public pool where he jumped into the pool, came out, and completely exposed his

genitals and everything else to everybody there.

A month later in July, he was arrested at the White House apparently his attempt was to meet the President which we all know leads to some, you

know, intensive federal scrutiny.

A month later he told the police that people were tapping his computer and his phone. And in that same month the authorities moved in and seized his

firearms. Ultimately, and here`s where things get curious. The firearms were turned back over to Travis` father. And Travis` father is now under

investigation for having given those guns back.

I want to bring Art Roderick into the picture. I want to ask you about the return of those guns. But at the same time, Art, I`m going to pop up on

the screen a mug shot that is just coming into us. This is brand new, the booking photo. There you go. How tranquil does he look in that picture?

There is Travis Jeffrey Reinking, 29 years old, from the Metro Nashville Police department after having been brought in.

(INAUDIBLE). Can we drop the banner for a moment? Look. You can see what he is wearing. Dianne pointed out that he was brought to the hospital in

between the arrest, and obviously being booked and photographed. Looks like he is wearing the hospital garb that we saw him in that perp walk,

there you go, with his cuffs on. But looks like hospital clothing.

And while we look at these new pictures, Art, maybe you can weigh in on how a man like this, who is so incredibly troubled, who got on the fed`s

authorities when he did something like that at the White House. They took his guns away and they gave them back. But they gave them to his father

who has admitted to having turned them back over to his son, Travis. What kind of trouble is that father in tonight?

[19:11:34] ART RODERICK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes. I think that father could definitely face some federal charges because you legally

cannot transfer weapons to an individual that you know is not supposed to possess them. And that is the particular case here.

Because based on the charge of the White House, those weapons were taken away and turned over to a father which we are being told is legal in the

state of Illinois for a family member to take possession. But for the father, to go ahead and give those weapons back to the son, afterwards, is

illegal. So I`m sure ATF, the district attorney`s office, or the U.S. attorney`s office in Illinois, are looking at some type of federal charge

here. But there could be other charges also. We just - they are going to have to sort through all this.

BANFIELD: Sure. And Art, by the way, the pictures to the right of you on our screen showed him as he is being arrested with this torn burgundy

colored shirt.

RODERICK: Yes.

BANFIELD: He was not seen with clothing on the last time he fled the waffle house. These could have been stolen clothes. He looks like she is

scratched up. That could have been, you know, his time in the woods could have scratched up that shirt.

But make no mistake, this is not a kid who looks this part not sort of like a street kid from the gutter. In fact, I think we have got pictures of

where his parents live. And this is -- this might have come as the biggest surprise to me. It`s a home in Illinois. It`s a lot bigger than most

people`s homes. This looks like a mansion. It looks like this kid comes from privilege. Look at this place. I think it is 5,000 square feet.

Stone and some other -- I`m not sure if it`s siding or brick. But that is one hell of a home. And to see the condition that that young man was

arrested in, I mean, to hear what his father may have done, by giving those, it doesn`t really fit the profile, does it, Art?

RODERICK: No, it doesn`t. I mean, when you see these booking pictures, you are expecting to see this monster, this ogre, and you don`t. You see

pretty much a disarming young man.

But as we know, Ashleigh, mental health doesn`t have - doesn`t crosses all classes, all financial, you know, it doesn`t make any difference. And

apparently, even though we have the report from May of 2016, I`m sure the family can cite other issues that occurred prior to May of 2016.

And also in the 2016 report, Ashleigh, there was -- he had told law enforcement that he was suicidal. So we are hearing this suicidal issue

over the past couple years also.

BANFIELD: Well, I`m glad you brought up the family issue. Stay tuned for a minute, Art. Don`t go away.

RODERICK: Yes.

Dr. Bober, that brings in you into the picture seamlessly. Because when I see that mansion in Illinois, they clearly come from money. These are

parents who had the means and the resources, perhaps, to get mental help for this young man. But I also wondered if there is an essence of thinking

the problem is less serious than it is. And I don`t just mean for rich folk, I mean for all parents who have a troubled child. Do they think

perhaps they can keep it under control? Do they think it`s less problematic than maybe it would be for the rest of us who are not in that

insular family arrangement?

DR, DANIEL BOBER, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST (on the phone): Well, you know, Ashleigh after a while the behavior start to seems normal, I guess. You

know, the father really dropped the ball when he gave those guns back. Clearly, he should have protected the community and his family from his son

obtaining those weapons, and he gave them back. And this is the tragedy that resulted.

Under federal law, people are barred from having weapons if they are either involuntarily committed or found incompetent by a court. So there are

mechanisms in place to prevent this. And the state have an obligation to report it to the federal government so that people are not --

[19:15:25] BANFIELD: So you know, interesting, Dr. Bober, you may have just cut out, I don`t know if we still have you. But if we do, this brings

to mind a couple things. As you were talking about, I thought about Adam Lanza, who shot and killed 26 people at an elementary school. Killed his

mother, as well, the same mother who had purchased him a gun for his birthday. This was an extraordinarily mentally sick young man who went to

the gun range regularly, whose mom had a whole bunch of guns in the home.

And so, that`s why I ask, if there are people out there tonight who have kids with whom they have lots of problems, and they have a gun interest,

which is your second amendment, there has to be good advice from a doctor like you, to those parents, specifically to the parents of kids, they know

have difficulties, and maybe don`t know how serious the difficulties are,

Dr. Bober, what would you tell them?

BOBER: I would tell them that, you know, just like any other family, you have to have responsible gun ownership. And if you have someone in your

home who is mentally ill, and has so many red flags for violence that this young man had, including persecutions of delusions, paranoia, suicidal

threats, that maybe you should consider not even having a firearm if your home where they have access to it.

BANFIELD: Yes. Parag Shan, just quickly, ten seconds, insanity defense is not an automatic.

PARAG SHAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It is not an automatic with delusional compulsion. You have to show that the delusion was connected to the act.

And that if the delusion was real, it was justified.

BANFIELD: Yes. There are lots of ways.

SHAN: A lot of things to do.

BANFIELD: And it is almost impossible in this country to prevail in an insanity defense.

My thanks to all of my guests.

The hunt for an accused grandmother, killer granny, they have been calling her in the press, well, it`s over, in a spring break paradise, no less.

Wait until you hear where the U.S. Marshals found her, what she was doing in that restaurant, and see that lady beside her? There`s a story there

too. It is all next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:22:33] BANFIELD: Here`s some weird advice and it`s kind of theoretical here. If you are the subject of a nationwide manhunt, might be an idea to

change your appearance, maybe dye your hair, wear a wig, maybe, I don`t know, go into hiding somewhere where you would at least be expected to be

hanging out. Worst advice ever, walk into your favorite kind of joint with a big old smile plastered on your face. That`s exactly what Lois Riess

decided to do. And now Lois Riess has just enjoyed her very last fancy meal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GALLAGHER: Maybe she thought it was a small island that no one she would kind of just blend in which turned out to be the exact opposite for her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can`t imagine somebody would pick an island. If you are running from the law, it`s not really the best place to be. There`s

only one bridge on and off the island.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So not much of an escape route. But quite frankly, it didn`t really come to that. It`s a pretty good thing that Lois Riess washed up at

the south Texas resort town because she is accused of killing her husband at least a month ago, way up in Minnesota. And then driving all the way

down to Florida, she is accused of killing a woman who looked just like her after chatting her up and flipping her hair at a bar.

And by the way, the bar thing is exactly what Lois Riess was doing when the cops came in to cuff her and lead her away. And according to what her

bartender told the "Today Show," the gambling granny seemed to be burning through some pretty big cash.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She said I have a hundred dollar bill, I don`t have anything smaller, would that be OK? And I said, no problem. I looked up

the next thing you know she was being led out of the bar with her hands tied behind her back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: And cuffs is going to be a new normal for her.

With me now, defense attorney and author of "the Code," Parag Shan. Reporter with the Minneapolis "Star Tribune" Tim Harlow has been following

this every step of the way. He is live with me. And George Higenbotham. George was the one who alerted the authorities to Lois Riess in south Padre

Island leading us to see the pictures we saw. Lois Riess finally ending that whole cross country episode. It`s now in the hands of the justice

system.

So Tim, let me begin with you, if I can. I have got to say I did not expect it to end this way. I didn`t expect it to be so calm and quiet and

sort of normal. There she is. She looks exactly as she has during this nationwide manhunt. She is doing exactly what she is alleged to have done

in Florida, chatted up some woman next to her at a bar restaurant, flipping her hair, enjoying herself. And it ended with cuffs behind her. And she

was walked out. Were you surprised?

[19:25:16] TIM HARLOW, REPORTER, STAR TRIBUNE (on the phone): I was a little bit surprised, yes. I thought maybe she`d put up a little more

resistance than what she did. But based on her M.O., I guess it`s not surprising she was found in a bar and restaurant.

BANFIELD: I think she really liked those places as well as gambling venues too because she was spotted along the way in some gambling venues.

Apparently, she won some money in a gambling venue along the way as well.

I want to play for you, if you can, what the Lee County undersheriff Carmine Marceno said about her. And particularly as pertains to her

appearance. All week long we have been calling her the gambling granny, the woman who looks like anybody, putting her picture all over the news.

And we are not the only one. Cable and network and local. She was everywhere with her simple, you know, blond bob, and her simple outfits,

and yet this is how she chose to keep her appearance, have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sometimes when people run they try to alter their experience, change their hair color, do something. None of that here.

UNDERSHERIFF CARMINE MARCENO, LEE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Absolutely. As you can see, in our video surveillance, when she befriends Pam Hutchinson,

our victim, unfortunately she is smiling. So what does that tell you about her? She`s not -- she`s running, but guess what, she`s not changing her

appearance, she`s living life one day, signing the victim`s credit card in her name, the next her own. So this is a stone cold killer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So, Tim, I was fascinated to hear the police in South Padre Island say that she was there quote "with friends." I`m not so sure these

were new friends or old friends or friends who are helping her. Do you have any insight as to what the police meant when they said she arrived at

this place with friends?

HARLOW: Based on the surveillance, I mean, it looked like she was just chatting up friends who happened to be there. I don`t think she really

knew these people. But she wasn`t sitting alone. And I think in the loose sense of the word they were calling those people friends.

BANFIELD: With her mug shot it`s hard to believe that this is the woman who could be facing two murder cases in two different states. May I remind

you one of those states is Florida that carries with it a maximum penalty of the death penalty. Right now she is only facing second degree murder in

Florida. And you know how it goes, charges can always be changed, upgraded, downgraded, added to, but if it ends up being first degree murder

in Florida, the death penalty is a reality in that state.

She was apparently staying at a local motel and there they found two pistols, a .22 and a nine millimeter at her hotel room. So it`s kind of

interesting to see this smiling mug shot, shocking maybe you might say.

Here is Randy Smith from South Padre Island police talking a little bit about that mug shot.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was she eating alone?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m curious, I know in her mug shot, she looked smug. Did she say anything?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, from what I understand, she remained very silent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So one of the other shocking aspects of the story, Tim, is what happened the day that Lois` husband was found dead? She apparently that

very same day was cashing checks that she`d written to herself out of his - - ultimately out of his account. What else did they see her do that day?

HARLOW: It is reported that she had gone to the diamond Joe casino, which is just across the border from Minnesota. It`s in Iowa. And that she

spent the day gambling there. And right before she left she went across the street to a gas station, purchased a sandwich, and asked the clerk for

directions. I think the quote was, if you were going to head south, would I-35 be the way to go? Something very similar to that.

BANFIELD: I think we have the audio on that tape. Let`s rerun that video we just ran. And crank up the audio. Let`s see if we can hear her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you were heading south, would you take 35 south? Just keep going on down to the next state? Is that the way to go, you

think?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think so. I think that goes -- 35 goes through -- goes down to -- past Omaha and all that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, well, thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Thank you. She just sounds so nice and you would never assume that that`s a murder suspect. It`s just astounding to see. P.S., there

are apps for that. You know, once again, and the advice to people who are trying to escape being caught, you might not want to make your presence

known asking for directions how to get out of town.

Tim, there`s something interesting from your reporting that I saw. The incident in Texas where with the victim Pamela Hutchinson was murdered, for

which now this woman Lois Riess is facing second-degree murder, there`s this very famous now clip of her flipping her hair in the restaurant where

she`s chatting up Pamela Hutchinson. Everybody thinks that now it`s obvious that it was because Pam looked like her that that`s why she had

targeted her. But you also noted that Pam picked up the tab. So, ultimately, in this moment that we`re seeing right here, Pam`s paying for

Lois` drinks. Tim, are you there?

TIM HARLOW, REPORTER, STAR TRIBUNE (via telephone): Yes, yes, that`s right. Yes, she was. I -- and you assume that, you know, Lois has this

ability to kind of charm people, warm up to people, and probably convinced Hutchinson to pick up the tab. Maybe she gave some kind of a sob story

that she didn`t have any money, or she was down on her luck because she lost her husband. We don`t know. But it`s interesting that she got Pamela

to pay for that evening.

BANFIELD: Well, she may have been charming with her hair flipping and all the rest, but the hair flipping may have just been her Achilles, which

brings me to George Higginbotham. George, you are with the establishment Dirty Al`s, it`s I think very close to the establishment where Lois Ann was

arrested, and she came into your establishment first and something didn`t sit right with you. Take me from there.

GEORGE HIGGINBOTHAM, ALERTED AUTHORITIES OF LOIS RIESS (via telephone): Well, when she walked in, I could see the white hair, then, she was looking

at one of our menus. Then, when she put the menu down, she turned, she kind of flipped her hair, and that`s when she started walking out and I

mentioned that to one of my co-workers. I said, that`s her, that`s her. So, that`s when she went outside, we tried to get a tag in the car and we

called SPI and then we called U.S. Marshals.

BANFIELD: She`s still driving that White Acura that belonged to Pamela Hutchinson?

HIGGINBOTHAM: Correct.

BANFIELD: You saw the car?

HIGGINBOTHAM: Yes, (INAUDIBLE)

BANFIELD: Clearly, she`s -- yes, she was not trying to stay under the radar after all of this press coverage that you yourself saw.

HIGGINBOTHAM: Yes, she come in with a smile, she was having a good time, I guess.

BANFIELD: Did you talk to her?

HIGGINBOTHAM: No, no, my server was talking to her about the menu and what was served.

(CROSSTALK)

HIGGINBOTHAM: I was standing back -- just standing and watching her.

BANFIELD: You were just standing there watching her. So, she walks through the door. We`re looking at the video now. Did you instantly

recognize her from the T.V. coverage or did it take a while?

HIGGINBOTHAM: No, what really -- the white hair was going off but when she flipped it and went around, that`s what caught me. The white hair.

BANFIELD: George, if she had dyed or cut her hair, would you not have given her the time of day? Would she have been able to make it past this

moment where you alerted the police and they caught her at the other restaurant that she went to?

HIGGINBOTHAM: I probably wouldn`t have recognized her.

BANFIELD: It would have made that big a difference, right?

HIGGINBOTHAM: Oh, yes, yes.

BANFIELD: And you`re right across, like just down the street, it seems, right, from the Sea Ranch? Like you`re at Dirty Al`s.

HIGGINBOTHAM: A block.

BANFIELD: You`re a block away?

HIGGINBOTHAM: Correct.

BANFIELD: So, it didn`t take them very long to go from your spotting, your sighting. They must have found the car then. Do you think that`s how they

got to the Sea Ranch and found her there?

HIGGINBOTHAM: Gosh. When the Marshal showing up at our store, I mentioned that she went to the north. I don`t know if she went one block, two blocks

that she went. And the female U.S. Marshal (INAUDIBLE) next door and I assumed that`s where they found the car.

BANFIELD: That`s unbelievable. Well, listen, thank you, George. Thank you for watching your news programs and the images of Lois Riess flipping

her hair, that blond hair that stood out, and thank you for seeing something and saying something because your tip could very well be the

reason she`s off the streets and may never, ever make it back onto the streets again. Ultimately, we still have to wait to find out in

Minneapolis whether charges will be forthcoming there. They are also researching second-degree murder in Minnesota. So, George Higginbotham

thank you for that. My thanks to Tim Harlow as well, our reporter for the Star Tribune. He`s been doing such great work. Killer Granny story. Can

you believe it? Same blond hair flipping, dumb-dumb.

In our justice system, we look at judges with a lot of reverence. Usually, we see them as models of civility and the fairness. That`s why they get

the job, right? But one judge in Florida gave a defendant a verbal beat down at this court moment. And now that woman is dead, and the judge will

not be hearing cases anytime soon. That is next.

[19:35:10] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:40:16] BANFIELD: Sandra Twiggs was suspected of domestic violence. Sometimes that happens and in her case it was after a family argument. But

in her wheelchair, when she was wheeled up to the podium for her court appearance in Florida, she kind of started coughing and sort of sputtering

through her answers. And that would make sense because Sandra has been suffering from intense medical issues. So, you can imagine the last thing

that Sandra would expect was to become the victim of a verbal attack from the bench. The likes of which are rarely seen from people we appoint to

the top tiers of our legal system. But this attack came right from the judge, and I`m going to play it for you. But I just want to kind of get

you warmed up a little to it because when it starts, you`ll probably think, yes, you oversold it, Ashleigh. It wasn`t that big a deal. But you need

to just wait because boy does it pick up steams.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MERRILEE EHRLICH, CIRCUIT COURT JUDGE: I have read the probable cause affidavit.

SANDRA TWIGGS, DEFENDANT: Yes, ma`am.

EHRLICH: You don`t have to respond to each thing, but thank you.

TWIGGS: Thank you.

EHRLICH: Priors, relevant priors, recent priors.

TWIGGS: None.

EHRLICH: Excuse me, ma`am. I`m asking my courtroom staff. That`s OK. I`ll let you know each time I`m talking to you.

TWIGGS: OK, I`m sorry.

EHRLICH: Uh-huh.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And Ms. Twiggs, the one before us this morning filed a restraining order against the boyfriend, and I did verify that I do have

the actual case number that was --

EHRLICH: Excuse me. A temporary restraining order civil, against her sister?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, against the boyfriend of the daughter.

EHRLICH: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Which apparently the boyfriend --

EHRLICH: Which at this juncture would become moot because she can`t bring it any longer on behalf of her adult daughter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I just wanted (INAUDIBLE) the court as to what was going on.

EHRLICH: I appreciate that but whether she likes the boyfriend, I don`t know whose house this is, I don`t know if she`s in a position to evict --

excuse me, don`t tell me. I don`t know if she`s in a position to evict her, but if so, she has to do it properly. And does your daughter live

with you, ma`am?

TWIGGS: Yes, yes ma`am. But she also --

EHRLICH: Excuse me, don`t say anything beyond what I am asking you. Trust me, I am --

(CROSSTALK)

EHRLICH: Look, ma`am. Ma`am! Ma`am.

TWIGGS: She lives with my daughter.

EHRLICH: She lives with who?

TWIGGS: She lives with me and she lives with my daughter in Miami.

EHRLICH: Is that a different location?

TWIGGS: Yes --

(CROSSTALK)

EHRLICH: Do -- excuse me, oh, counsel, can you please -- is there any way you can on the phone talk to these people?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I spoke to Ms. Twiggs.

EHRLICH: I know -- I know that but while proceedings are ongoing, can you speak to them or no?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The phone`s off to the side. It can`t do both. But --

EHRLICH: I`m just trying -- first of all -- attorneys, don`t interrupt the court. And listen to what the court says because it may answer your

questions. Ma`am, my one question to you -- can someone there give her water as a kindness? Does your daughter, who has been living with you,

which this case is about, help you in the home? Do you need her help? Yes or no.

TWIGGS: Yes.

EHRLICH: Do you want her to stay in the home but have no harmful contact with you?

TWIGGS: Absolutely, yes, ma`am. Yes, your Honor. I --

EHRLICH: Excuse me.

TWIGGS: I`m sorry.

EHRLICH: Excuse me. Ma`am, do you want -- I don`t know why they didn`t make her a medical reset.

TWIGGS: Yes, your Honor.

EHRLICH: Instead of money, do you want to be supervised by pre-trial release?

TWIGGS: Yes, ma`am. Yes, your Honor.

EHRLICH: Listen. Say it again. Do you have a microphone?

TWIGGS: I don`t know what to say.

EHRLICH: You`ve already said too much. Listen, please. Ma`am, listen to me. Listen. Don`t answer yes, just listen. Can you hear me? Do you

understand me?

TWIGGS: Yes.

EHRLICH: I want you -- you will get paperwork today before you`re released from the jail. It will say that you have to check in with pre-trial

services by noon on Monday. You have to arrange for someone to carry you there if you can`t get there yourself. And they will give you the further

instructions about checking in. Do you understand me?

[19:45:19] TWIGGS: Yes.

EHRLICH: Good, thank you. You can return her.

TWIGGS: Does that mean I can go home?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So, I don`t know if you thought that was bad. But she was just getting started, that judge. And I want you to wait and hear how Judge

Ehrlich responds when Sandra Twiggs, woman on the wheelchair, actually has to ask for help with her breathing treatment. That`s next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[19:51:02] EHRLICH: Does your daughter live with you, ma`am?

TWIGGS: Yes, yes, ma`am, but she also --

EHRLICH: Excuse me. Don`t say anything beyond what I am asking you. Trust me, I am --

(CROSSTALK)

EHRLICH: Look, ma`am. Ma`am! Ma`am.

TWIGGS: She lives with my daughter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: We`re still talking about that cutthroat courtroom hearing, the not-so-honorable Florida judge who just laid into that disabled woman. Or

should I say former judge because this lady, Judge Merrilee Ehrlich, just stepped down from the bench. That after giving that woman who suffers from

asthma, diabetes, and pulmonary disease a total verbal beat down. The judge may have lost her job because we now know she`s taking early

retirement but in a tragic twist of fate, Sandra Twigs lost her life. Her friend said she came home from that hearing starving and dizzy and

breathless, struggling to get her medication while she was in jail. Something she actually tried to outline to this judge while sitting in that

spot right there. The judge, however, was having none of it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EHRLICH: Ma`am, do you need water? Just nod your head.

TWIGGS: Yes, I do. And I have breathing treatment.

EHRLICH: Ma`am, I`m not here to talk to you about your breathing treatment. That -- excuse me. Oh, Lord. Will you say something, counsel,

in the microphone so that she can hear you and you can give her instructions about propriety in court. I`m not going to spend all day with

her interrupting me. It`s your turn to speak, counsel.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ms. Twigs, just stay silent for a moment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Yes, don`t worry about your breathing or anything. Sandra Twiggs may have been on death`s doorstep but her family says it was that

hearing that killed her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNA TWIGGS, SISTER OF VICTIM: She said they treated me so bad and she said all I wanted was some medical attention and some help.

CAROLYN TWIGS, SISTER OF VICTIM: To see a person begging you for help and trying to talk to you and you treating them like a dog for what reason.

If that judge is listening to us and looking at us, I hope you can sleep at night knowing that you killed her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Defense Attorney Parag Shah, author of "The Code" is with me. You know, the first thing people would think is that, that they have some

recourse, maybe a wrongful death suit but they don`t, do they?

PARAG SHAH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, the judge here has what`s called judicial immunity which means that if she was acting as her role as a judge

and within her jurisdiction, then, she can`t be sued unless there is some exception in state law, but no, she can`t be sued for wrongful death

unfortunately, and her behavior was egregious.

BANFIELD: Yes, well, she`s off the bench now. So, there`s a little bit of justice for all of us. I`m disgusted by that. Thank you, Parag. Stay

tuned. Don`t go anywhere.

We just love to see criminals getting their due here at CRIME & JUSTICE, but for this guy when he decided to go after a store clerk in Florida, he

got a little more than he expected in terms of the justice she delivered. Wait for this one.

[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: "ONE MORE THING" for you tonight, a clerk in Florida apparently decided she had enough with that brazen shoplifter in her store so she

threw down with all that vigilante justice, I like to say sometimes. She called him out, but then, and he (INAUDIBLE) decked her in the face and

instead of that shocking her, and her, like, you know, now, she turned around and she grabbed him like this, tries to take him down. It just

slowed him down but eventually the cops actually caught up with him and that fellow there, yes, he`s caught. He`s facing charges and they also got

away with his shirt. Look at that. Like, he`s thinking I want to get away. Do I keep the shirt? Do I just run? And she`s still in, right?

She`s still there. Like, yes, away. Out you go. Charges.

See you back here tomorrow night 6:00 Eastern. You can listen to our show any time, too. Download the podcast on Apple Podcasts, iHeartRadio,

Stitcher, TuneIn or wherever you get your podcast for your CRIME & JUSTICE fix. Thanks for watching, everybody. It`s nice to have you here.

"FORENSIC FILES" starts right now.

END