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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield
Bombshell Arrest, Golden State Serial Killer Caught; Joseph James DeAngelo, Cop By Day, Serial Predator At Night; Bill Cosby Found Guilt. Aired 6-8p ET
Aired April 26, 2018 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:00] (JOINED IN PROGRESS)
PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE: We begin with breaking news tonight, just a few hours ago in Norristown, Pennsylvania, jurors found
Bill Cosby guilty on all three counts of aggravated indecent assault. The jury deliberated about 14 hours, ultimately believing Aundrea Constand, who
testify that Cosby drug her and when she woke he was assaulting her.
Five other women told the same story to jurors, Cosby is free on $1 million bond until his sentencing date which has not been determined. But the
Judge ruled that he should not leave his home in the Philadelphia suburbs, and must wear a GPS tracking device. Cosby now facing up to 30 years in
prison.
And that is not the only breaking story we`re covering. We`re also bringing you the latest on the capture of the man police say terrorized
Northern California for years, the Golden State Killer. Good evening everyone. I`m Pat Lalama from "Crime Watch Daily" in for Ashleigh
Banfield.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A flashlight shining in my eyes, and this large butcher knife.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Crimes that spanned 10 years across at least ten different counties, northern, central and southern California.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m gonna kill you.
Shut up, shut up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He enjoys the terror.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Passion, persistence, knowledge, finally came to an answer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stake out his house and then they caught him when he left the house. An arrest that happened perfectly.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t believe he is been that close for that long.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s scary to think that someone like that lives bumper to bumper with me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Women who raped and survived, you have to believe that they can sleep tonight.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Good evening, everyone. I`m Pat Lalama from "Crime Watch Daily," in for Ashleigh Banfield, and this is "Crime and Justice."
Tonight, investigators, crime buffs and just about the entire state of California are learning everything they can about the Golden State Killer.
Joseph James DeAngelo, was arrested after a decade long killing and rape spree that left 12 dead and countless with everlasting scars.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEBORAH FISCHER, NEIGHBOR: It shakes you to the core, it really does, mostly when you grew up with the fear of him, and to find out he lives
right around the corner? That somebody as heinous as that could live here. It`s just unbelievable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: The former cop turned alleged serial killer was reportedly shocked when authorities came to his home outside Sacramento. He was so settled
into his life in suburbia that he told officers he had a roast in the oven upon arrest. They told him they`d take care of it. And now they`re
searching room by room for clues to look inside the mind of an alleged serial killer.
I want to bring in my panel investigative journalist, Billy Jensen, Jane Carson, Golden State Killer victim, Paul Holes, cold case investigator, he
began working on the Golden State Killer in 1994, and defense attorney, Heather Hansen, and on the phone, Larry Crompton, former sergeant, with the
Contra Costa County Sheriff`s Office and the author of "Sudden terror."
Straight ahead, now I a m going to tell you, I am going right to Billy Jensen, my colleague, my esteemed colleague at "Crime Watch Daily," and
also you helped finish the book that is now being so discussed, and that is "I`ll be home in the dark." Billy, something brand new that just came out.
Let me read to you, this is from the Sacramento Bee, that we are reporting, the suspect police say is the Golden State Killer was found using DNA
matching information from genealogy websites.
Now, yesterday we were told that was probably unlikely. Do you have any thoughts about that? I`m don`t springing it on you just right at this last
second, but want to know what you think about that.
BILLY JENSEN, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: You know, it`s not so much you`re springing it on me, because that is what it sounded like at the press
conference. It sounded like, they were talking about. This would solve the familial DNA that it was pointed in the right direction via a family
member and then they had to just sort of, you know, eliminate suspects and suspects and then find the guy and they looked into his background. And
said, this is the guy, we need to hang out at his house and then get some discarded DNA. That is exactly what it sounded like when they were talking
about. I guess, they just weren`t willing to talk about it yesterday, but we found that out today and that is not a surprise at all.
LALAMA: Well, Billy, let me ask you this, so, you know, the big question of the day yesterday, and still today is, why did they even start looking
for discarded DNA? So my question still is, does this have to do with some new revelation, or do you think it`s just the advancement of technology
that allowed this to happen?
[18:05:05] JENSEN: I think who it might have been is that, you know, we were constant and I knew people, we were doing it ourselves, we were
constantly taking his DNA and checking it against public DNA databases. Now, the DNA databases like 23 and ancestry.com that are closed, you can`t
do that, but there`s other DNA databases where people will take their DNA and put them up there just because they`re hobbyists or just because they
want to find more information or find more people that they`re related to.
That might have been what happened. I don`t want to speculate, but it sounds like that might have been what happened. And then, you`re
constantly putting, you know, if somebody just put their sample in there six months ago, then it comes up to a time when you would have, you know, -
- somebody would have entered this other sample from the crime scenes and then there was a match.
LALAMA: It`s so mind blowing, though, how technology has helped us advance in adjudicating cases. And on the phone we have Larry Crompton. Larry,
you were the man who sounded the alarm. You were the one that kept trying to tell everyone there was a connection between the East Area Rapist and
the Original Night Stalker. What do you think about this latest information about genealogy?
LARRY CROMPTON, FORMER SERGEANT, CONTRA COSTA COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Well, I wish that they could have used it earlier, back then when he was
sitting in our area, we didn`t even know about DNA, so we didn`t have any information. And now that he is caught and in jail, I hope they get an
opportunity to talk to him, find out what was in his mind as to why he was the way that he was.
LALAMA: Paul Holes, cold case investigator, just to stay on this genealogy connection for a minute, what do you make of it?
PAUL HOLES, COLD CASE INVESTIGATOR: Well, you know, trying to find an offender like this, we want to make sure that we employ all available
technologies. And up until about a year ago, we exhausted everything that was available to us. So that is when we did resort to having to try to
see, if we could find individuals in which the DNA would point us in a certain direction into a family circle. And that is what we set out to do.
LALAMA: Well, and it`s just an incredible, incredible situation here. Heather Hansen, defense attorney, you know, this whole DNA, I`ve covered
dozens and dozens of trials and defense attorneys continuously tried to say well, these numbers, these statistics aren`t valid. You`ve got a real
fight if you represented this guy, because of the advancements, don`t you think?
HEATHER HANSEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely, Pat. I mean, these types of testing is very difficult to get around. And in this situation, I think,
that not only are we seeing technology get better, but we`re seeing more and more people access it. And I think it`s the combination of those two
things that really hit the jackpot here.
Because it`s now available to almost anyone who wants to send away a swab and get their family ancestry. So it`s the technology in combination with
the public access that allows for something like this. And I hope and pray that the same type of technology is now applied to all those rape kits that
are out there with similar DNA.
LALAMA: Absolutely, I think this is going to open a floodgate. But the thing about advanced technology in DNA, it`s not just good for conviction,
it`s also good for exoneration, Heather, correct?
HANSEN: That is absolutely right. It can be used on both sides. And ultimately it helps the innocent people prove their innocence, and helps
prosecutors prove the guilt. And you know, the defense attorney in this case will have to contest the way the DNA was taken, the way that it was
studied and the way it was tested.
LALAMA: Or if it was compromised in any way along the way.
HANSEN: Absolutely. But there are some cases that are very difficult to defend. And it looks as though this is going to be one of them.
LALAMA: Billy Jensen, back to you, my colleague at Crime Watch Daily, author, producer, correspondent, you do it all, the renaissance man, I want
to read something to you that I found out, it was an article written about DeAngelo when he became a police officer and someone wrote an article about
it. Quote, James DeAngelo believes that without law and order there can be no -- there can be no government and without a Democratic government here
there can be no freedom. What a juxtaposition to what he turned out to be, allegedly.
JENSEN: You know, and I think, he probably hid behind a lot of that stuff.
LALAMA: Yes.
JENSEN: You know, the first thing we did when we first heard the news, it was 1:00 in the morning when I got a text and I had to confirm it first and
I talked to Debbi Domingo, one of -- whose mother was murdered by him. And I wanted to confirm it, before I went and told everybody, went and told
Patten Oswald too, who is the husband of Michelle, who wrote the book.
And, you know, then we started digging into newspaper.com and start to finding this articles, this articles about him, being caught shoplifting,
this articles about that he was in the dive association and really putting all the things that we had thought about him together.
And we had thought that maybe he might have been either a failed police officer, or somebody that tried to be a police officer, or something like
that, had tried to be a police officer or was really deeply into the military.
[18:10:06] That was not a surprise. But what was a surprise is that he was a police officer that was, you know, so close to these areas, and he very
well could have used that to escape.
LALAMA: Right.
JENSEN: Now this could have been just another one of his escape routes.
LALAMA: Right, if you look at the timeline it seems almost positive that he was committing some of the crimes while he wore the badge and carried
the gun. Do you think?
JENSEN: Absolutely and I think the fact that, you know, we knew -- that he knew -- the reason why he kept on picking these neighborhoods is because he
knew all the escape routes to these neighborhoods. I think this was another escape route. What this was is, if somebody would have caught him
on the street he might have flipped the badge, he might have named a name if a cop might have come up to him. And these stories are going to come
out now that we start seeing photos of him from what he looked like back then. Because the photos that he looked like when he was the Visalia
Ransacker, his face was a lot fuller and he was a lot heavier. He lost a lot of weight between when he was the Ransacker to when he was the East
Area Rapist.
LALAMA: Very good, very good. Jane Carson, I am so privileged to talk to you, what a time this must be for you as a victim of the alleged rapist
killer. Just pour it out to me, girl. I want to hear everything.
JANE CARSON, GOLDEN STATE KILLER VICTIM: I can`t tell you how overjoyed I am, how ecstatic I am, how relieved I am. I mean, I got -- actually, I
received an e-mail yesterday morning, I was at a hotel with my husband in Wilson, North Carolina, and first thing in the morning, I turned on my
phone and there was an e-mail from Larry Crompton, and he said, I guess you already know, Jane, but we`ve got him and I didn`t know. I had no idea.
So, oh, my goodness, my husband and I screamed, cried, yelled, woke up the whole hotel. I mean we were -- talk about being a hot mess, I was a hot
mess and I still am, because I just can`t believe that this has truly happened and then I called Carol Daley, the detective that had taken me to
the emergency room, 42 years ago and she did confirm that he was behind bars in Sacramento.
LALAMA: Wow. You`re a pretty amazing hot mess. Stay right there, because we`re going to go to some sound. What have we got?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARSON: I was 21 when I joined the air force nurse corps and spent the next 40 years with the Air Force being both in the reserves and on active
duty.
I think it was right after he raped me, he said you looked really good at the "O" club last week, that officer`s club, but "O" club, now that is
something that we in the military would use, that term, "O" club versus officer`s club. For him to say "O" club made me think this guy has some
military connection, so he knows that I`m in the military, my husband`s in the military, how did he know that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: That is so chilling, Jane, because I`ve been wondering, did he select his victims, was it random? What do you think?
CARSON: Well, what`s interesting is I also lived in Citrus Heights at this time. So he very well could have been my neighbor, which is -- I just
can`t imagine. I often wonder how long he had stalked me, where he had first seen me, had it been in the military, ha I actually been at the
officer`s club, or Travis where I was stationed? I had no idea. That is my --
LALAMA: Unbelievable.
CARSON: Yes, really.
LALAMA: Larry Crompton, let me ask you, just -- kind of following on what Jane is talking about, did you have a sense of whether this man
premeditated his victims, alleged victims, or, just you know, at the moment he gets an urge and he is got to go do something devious, what do you
think?
CROMPTON: No, I believe that he spent a lot of time on it, finding out where he was going to go. He would set the houses up. And some of them he
would even go in when they weren`t home and unlock a window or a door. And put the shoe laces hidden inside so he`d have them there to tie them up.
And then he`d wait until they went to sleep. And then he would go in and wake them up.
LALAMA: Wow, unbelievable.
CROMPTON: There was a few times where the ones that -- the lady that was sexually assaulted was not the one that he had in mind. It just happened
that he went by that house, and she was in the open. And he attacked her. And the following week, he attacked the one that he originally was after,
which was a 13-year-old girl. And -- but most of the time I think he did go into the area, wander through it, find out what it was, and knew who was
in the houses and which ones he wanted to go to.
[18:15:04] LALAMA: All right. Stay right there, Larry. We`ll come back to you. Straight ahead. More of our continuing coverage of the arrest of
Joseph James DeAngelo, the alleged Golden State Killer.
And At 8:00 Eastern, HLN presents an encore presentation of all five episodes of "Unmasking a killer," HLN`s in-depth investigation into the
decades long search for the Golden State Killer.
[18:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLEEN CASON, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST, VENTURA COUNTY STAR: I know that a lot of people have searched the world over looking for similar cases.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An investigative track can completely take you down the wrong path.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was out hunting, peeping, exposing himself.
The police were not in any way anticipating that this could be the work of a serial killer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The ski mask is completely on. And so all he really saw was the offender`s eyes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were looking for a needle in a hay stack.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We don`t even know the full extent.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it`s very likely that the Visalia Ransacker is the East Area Rapist, the Original Night Stalker, which ultimately is
the Golden State Killer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We will, god willing, hold this man fully accountable for his crimes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: And it took 42 years to crack the case of the Golden State Serial Killer. A former cop reportedly fired for stealing items from a drugstore,
the breakthrough came in the last six days, thanks to DNA evidence and now authorities are working to build a case in court that proves Joseph James
DeAngelo is, in fact, the Golden State Killer. My panel still with me, back out to my colleague Billy Jensen from "Crime Watch Daily."
You know, Billy, what I think, and we`ve covered a lot of this stuff as journalists, what really amazes me is how he is able to stay under the
radar, so when he gets fired as a cop then he works for a grocery chain. Tell us a little bit about that part of his history.
JENSEN: Yes, when you think about it, though, wasn`t that a big red flag? You`re fired, because you`re accused of stealing two items in particular, a
dog repellant and a hammer. And when they say, all right, we`re going to have a hearing and then he just says, no, I don`t want a hearing, just fire
me, I`m good.
You know, you rarely ever see a cop, you know a cops can do a lot worse things and then you see a union come up and try to defend them. You know,
he just walked away from that. That should have been a big red flag that there might be something up with this guy and what is he hiding? But he
just walked away. That is the biggest thing that I -- you know, the craziest thing about the stuff that we found on newspapers.com and looking
into this guy`s background.
LALAMA: Well, but let me ask this to my guest, who is Paul Holes, Cold Case Investigator, Paul, he flew under the radar and his company said there
was never anything he ever did that made anybody feel like he was creepy or they were creeped out. Is that possible for someone who`s this prolific?
I guess you can look at son of Sam and, you know, a lot of those who led these lives that seemed rather normal. Do you feel that is the case here?
HOLES: Absolutely. You know, the notorious offender that I liken Golden State Killer to the most is BTK --
LALAMA: Right.
HOLES: -- and he flew under the radar. So, I -- and that is what we are seeing with Joe DeAngelo, he was out talking to his neighbors, he was
puttering around his house, he had hobbies, he was living a normal life, nobody would suspect just by watching him that he was this horrible,
horrible killer.
LALAMA: Right. But defense attorney, Heather Hansen, the thing is, people said he was grumpy, he yelled a lot, if people got too close to his, you
know, yard line, he`d go crazy, that he was a real screamer. That is not really enough to make anyone think I live next to a serial killer though.
HANSEN: Absolutely not, Pat. You don`t know what goes on behind closed doors, we see that all the time at this cases and unfortunately, whether
you are a yeller, some people are just grumpy neighbors. Now we know that he was probably trying to hide the fact, you know, that he had taken all of
these items from all of these women.
I know, Jane is hoping to get some of those items back. So the fact he had all this stuff in his home, who knows what could be buried under his yard.
Of course he wanted people to stay away, but telling someone to stay out of my yard is just not enough to put people on notice that this may be
something more than that.
LALAMA: Jane, let me ask you Jane Carson, who is a victim of the alleged suspect, he has three daughters, we understand. I find that just so hard
to wrap my head around, he is got daughters, three daughters, and I`m still curious about what his relationship was like with them. We know one of
them we are told moved back in with him with a child. So he is also a grandfather. He was married, we are unclear whether he actually did get
divorced. The woman being a family law attorney. So Jane, as a woman, what goes through your mind when you hear all of this?
CARSON: It`s just really difficult to understand, and I don`t really have enough background information to really comment on it. It just -- the
whole thing is just so bizarre, just absolutely bizarre. And why didn`t his wife, why didn`t his daughters know what was going on?
[18:25:00] LALAMA: Larry Crompton, do you have any insight into the psychology of this kind of a man? Who was a decorated navy man during the
Vietnam War, was a decorated police officer. Has a degree in criminal justice. His worst crime on record was a DUI. What insight can you offer
us?
CROMPTON: What I saw from the very beginning was that he had a definite hatred towards women, whether it was because of his mother, because of his
mother didn`t protect him against a father, or because of a problem he had with a woman earlier. But I talk to psychiatrists, and they told me, you
better be careful, if you catch him before he commits the crime, he is going to be so normal that you will not be able to put anything together on
him. If you catch him as he is leaving a crime, then you are going to be in trouble, and he will either kill you or he will kill himself.
LALAMA: Unbelievable.
CROMPTON: And I got that from more than one psychiatrist. That was the way that his mind worked.
LALAMA: Billy Jensen, let me ask you, he told the police I have a roast in the oven. What kind of psychological insight does that give you, that he
thought he was invincible, he is still worried about his roast, he is not thinking about what lies ahead?
JENSEN: You know what? I think he knew his jig was up.
LALAMA: Really?
JENSEN: He knew this day was coming. Yes. He knew this day is coming, I think he was watching the things that were going on with this case, you
know, the book had just been a best seller, number one "New York Times" best seller. It is still on the best seller list, the number one book in
the country right now.
And, you know, he was seeing all of this stuff that was going on. And I think he heard those footsteps and he knew, he knew it was just a matter of
time, because he saw what was going on with the technology. He saw other serial killers being caught through familial DNA.
LALAMA: Right. Right, -- that is a good point. Now, Billy, listen, I know you`ve heard this. I don`t know that everyone in the audience has
heard this. This is a sound -- a really creepy sound, I`m going to let you hear it and then we`ll talk about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello? Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m gonna kill you. Gonna kill you, gonna kill you. (BEEP).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: OK, so who feels like locking the doors right now? Unbelievable, Paul Holes, Cold Case Investigator, we can`t say for sure that that is the
alleged killer, explain to us what that is all about.
HOLES: Well, that was a phone call made to the very first official East Area Rapist victim who was attacked in June of 1976.
That phone call came in in January of `78, almost 18 months later. We can`t say for sure, we don`t have telephone records, we don`t have anything
that would actually match it up to the East Area Rapist, but we`re highly confident that that was the East Area Rapist calling her. That is what he
liked, it was that psychological terror. He got off on that.
LALAMA: Well, you just hit the nail on the head and I want to go back to Billy. One of the interesting and disgusting aspects of his M.O. is loving
to terrorize people, just really demeaning, degrading, insulting, demoralizing, putting plates on top of victims` bodies and saying if I hear
one cup crash, you`re dead. Give us an insight into that M.O.
JENSEN: This was never about sex, this was about power.
LALAMA: Right.
JENSEN: And, you know, he went and he graduated from the power of breaking into somebody`s house and stealing something, then he graduated to breaking
in somebody`s house and then stealing their body for three or four hours, and then leaving. And then stealing their body when they`re next to their
mate in the most safest place you should be, and then he graduated to actually being the ultimate king of the home, and killing these people.
That is what he thought he was. This was an ultimate power trip for this guy. And, you know, now that he is -- he is caught and now that we see his
face, all his power is gone, his power has completely been evaporated. And now we just have to see if there are any other victims that might have slid
under the radar on top of the 12 murders and 50 rapes.
LALAMA: Absolutely. I want my panel to stick around, our breaking news coverage continues in a moment.
[18:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): The golden state killer is a burglar, rapist, serial killer who terrorized California from 1976 to 1986.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the most prolific killer in California history.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you look at the investigations into the Southern California homicides, you do see the original investigators recognizing
that there are some similar cases.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): Cases consistent in terms of what he is doing.
CAROL DALY, DETECTIVE: This is the same guy. We had a serial rapist going. His M.O. was so identifiable. Even the officers arriving at the scene would
know that it was the east area rapist.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Well, one of the newest inmates at the Sacramento County jail is perhaps California`s most notorious killer. After his arrest, neighbors
described him as being angry, having outbursts in unneighborly ways. But it`s hard to imagine anyone truly suspected James DeAngelo was indeed the
golden state killer.
My panel is still with me. And we are pleased to add Sean Ragan, special agent in charge, Sacramento FBI. Sean, I think I have not yet told people
that there are currently now eight murder counts. Can you expound for us?
SEAN RAGAN, SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE, FBI SACRAMENTO DIVISION (via telephone): I`ll leave that up to the prosecutors of this case. I can`t
confirm the exact count at this point.
LALAMA: OK, well, there are eight. We`ll confirm it for you. And I know you can`t really talk about the prosecutorial side. But what do you make of
these developments? What happens next? He goes to court, what happens next? Goes to court tomorrow, I think.
RAGAN (via telephone): Sure. This is an ongoing investigation. As you know, there`s many alleged crimes by this alleged suspect through a course
of 13 years. And so investigation continues into each of those crimes that this subject is suspected of committing.
And then each of the independent jurisdictions, the counties` DA offices will be putting together there their cases, trying to have -- determine
whether there`s enough evidence to charge in their particular locality. And then if there is, taking the case through the prosecutorial (INAUDIBLE) and
judicial (INAUDIBLE).
LALAMA: Give us some insight into the behind the scenes for law enforcement. You know, you guys do such a great job in the field.
Everything that you do investigative wise. But I`d like a little bit of personal sense of what it was like when you all realized you had this man
in custody.
RAGAN (via telephone): A sense of relief. This is, as you know, investigations have been going on across multiple jurisdictions in the
state of California for decades.
So all of the investigators at both the state, local, federal level, in the law enforcement agencies, the district attorney`s offices, have all been
working in conjunction with one another to collaborate and come up with enough facts to obviously identify the perpetrator, and then make this
arrest.
And so a sense of accomplishment, a sense of relief for the community, and a relief for the victims and their families. That was really what drove
everybody and really the investigators assigned to these cases, the day in and day out. Their passion was really driven by trying to find justice for
the victims in these crimes, and the family members of those victims, no matter how long it took.
LALAMA: So good. Larry Crompton, I`m guessing you second everything that was just said.
CROMPTON (via telephone): I`m sorry, I couldn`t hear it.
LALAMA: I`m sorry, well, he was just talking about the dedication, you were not going to give up on this. And I just want to know, why? How do you
have that drive for a case that`s so frustrating that you didn`t know really what he looked like?
You had nothing in the DNA database. You know it started out that there wasn`t even DNA that we knew technologically, how to use the technology. So
what kind of a relief for you is this?
CROMPTON (via telephone): With me, for many, many years I would wake up at 3:00 in the morning and say, what did I do wrong? What did I miss? My job
was to catch him.
[18:39:58] And I finally let it come to my mind that this wasn`t about me. This was about the victims and the victims` families. So I could look at it
in a different manner after that. And now that he is in custody, I look at it as this is great for the victims and their families. This is what it`s
all about.
It`s not about me and it`s not about law enforcement. We have a job to do. And fortunately the detectives that were working this case at that time
when they caught him, they did their job. But they didn`t do it for them. They did it for the victims.
LALAMA: That`s exactly right. That`s exactly right. And on that note, Jane Carson, I`m sure you`re incredibly grateful to the people who never lost
sight of you and the others. I`m going to let you drive how far you want me to go with your own personal story, I don`t want to cross any lines of
privacy.
We talked about terror. I`m just wondering, did the alleged killer and rapist terrorize you? The whole situation is terror. I don`t want to
undermine that. But did he use any games, play any games to try to make you feel just horrific?
CARSON: I think his whole game was about power and control. I really feel that for myself it was just all about terror from the moment he ran down
the hall with a flashlight in his hand wearing that ski mask with that large butcher knife in his hand, the black leather jacket, the gloves. He
just wanted to inflict fear.
And I wrote a book, and I named it "Frozen in Fear" because that was the major emotion that I was feeling at that time. And then, before he raped
me, he moved my 3-year-old son, and I had no idea where he had put him. Did he put him in another room? Did he put him on the floor? Did he kill him? I
had absolutely no idea.
So to be very truthful, I do not remember very much about the rape. It was all about fear. And then he had this -- OK, I`m sorry.
LALAMA: No, please go ahead.
CARSON: I`m sorry?
LALAMA: Go ahead, Jane, continue.
CARSON: And then he had a very strange behavior of, again, before he raped me, of tearing sheets, tearing towels. And he did this for the longest time
and I thought, OK, what is he doing? Now, mind you, we are blindfolded, we are gagged, and we are tied up.
But I could hear him tearing these towels and tearing these sheets. And I`m thinking, OK, what`s his next move? Is he going to hang us? Is he going to
bound us even more? I had no idea. So it was truly a very frightening, frightening, frightening experience. It was just -- my heart was just
beating through my chest.
LALAMA: Well, I think you`re the strongest woman in America. Unbelievable. It`s so impressive. I love listening to you. More of our continuing
coverage of the capture of the alleged golden state killer straight ahead.
[18:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shut up, I`m going to kill you. I knew it absolutely was the east area rapist at that point.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As information started to point towards this individual, we were able to confirm what we thought we already knew, that
we had our man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): So there were no fingerprints. There were no hair and fiber. You could only connect him through M.O.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was like a broken record. He would wake the victims up with a flashlight or stick a gun in their face. When he talked, it was
through clinched teeth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you scream, I`ll kill you.
DALY: Do as I say, I`m going to kill you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve got a .45 and I will use it, I will kill you, I will stick you with my knife.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: In a way, Joseph James DeAngelo was just the nasty neighbor next door, according to people we talked to. He wasn`t so friendly. And he got
irate when lawns were mowed too early or late in the day. In other words, to most people he was just kind of ordinary, maybe a little cranky. And
that maybe one of the reasons it took 42 years and DNA evidence to finally track him down.
My panel is still with me. Back out to my colleague from "Crime Watch Daily," Billy Jensen. Billy, someone mentioned earlier that he may have
hated his mom or hated someone who broke his heart. Do you have any insight into that? I`d love to know what his parents were like.
JENSEN: I think that`s the next steps right now and I think every person that`s going to want to write a biography about this guy is going to start
digging into his past and see what happened.
There`s the questions of the logistics of the case and the numbers of victims and how he did his stuff. But we`re going to want to know why. What
makes somebody do this and do it in such an insane manner that was incredibly meticulous? He was not a frothing, raving lunatic.
LALAMA: Right.
JENSEN: You know, Jane has said that in the past. This guy was under control and he just had an idea of what he wanted to do and the idea was
all about power and keeping that power over people.
[18:50:00] LALAMA: Heather Hansen, defense attorney, I was talking to a lawyer yesterday about what do you do if this case falls in your lap? Now
that we know more, a little more about his M.O., we all know everyone is entitled to a defense.
That`s our system, and it`s a good one. But how -- you take a case that`s going to go to court tomorrow, first tell us what`s likely to happen and
then secondly, if you are the attorney of record, what do you do with this case?
HANSEN: Well what`s likely to happen tomorrow, Pat, is going to be very quick. They will try to ask for bail. I don`t think bail will be given
given the level of his crimes, the number of his crimes, and how dangerous he is.
And then if you are his defense attorney, you have to figure out either some sort of a defense or some sort of mitigation. The first thought is
always some sort of mental health situation.
As Billy pointed out, not just biographers, but lawyers, psychiatrists, all types of people will be interviewing him, looking into his past, looking
into things to either excuse it, which I don`t think is going to happen, or explain it, which might mitigate it.
He`s an older man. Chances are he is going to spend the rest of his life in jail. But, you know, as an attorney, part of your job is to do what you can
to serve him and make sure that he gets every step of the way fair due process. That`s how the system works.
LALAMA: Yes. And when people -- I`m sure you`ve heard it, when people say how can you represent that guy? And they take it personally that you have a
job of representing really icky people. But if we didn`t have that, we`d have kangaroo courts all around the world.
I have a question now for Paul Holes, a cold case investigator, one of the things I`ve found interesting and I`ve heard this in other cases, a
criminal sometimes starts small and kind of puts the toe in the water, OK, I`ve got 120 robberies going or burglaries.
Then they go to the rape and it`s just the rape of the women and I`m talking about this case, and then you include the men, you include the
children, have you run into that kind of M.O. quite a lot in your profession?
HOLES: Well, you do see individuals that will evolve and follow that general pattern. But we`ve never run into an individual like the golden
state killer where he escalated all the way up to where he is attacking -- consistently attacking with men in the house, with guns in the house. He
evolved to the extreme.
LALAMA: He certainly did. And when, you know, Billy talks about power and control. Well, let me ask this to Billy. Having the men around, was that to
humiliate the man, to say, look what I`m doing to your wife? Is it that sick?
JENSEN: I think it was just another measure of control. He was just upping the ante there. You could wait for the man to leave the house, but it might
be even more of a thrill to have the man there.
LALAMA: As sick as it gets. Breaking news out of Pennsylvania tonight, where America`s dad, Bill Cosby, is now known as convicted felon Bill
Cosby. Details up next. And at 8:00 Eastern, unmasking a killer marathon, all five episodes of HLN`s in-depth investigation into the search for the
golden state killer.
[18:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LALAMA: We`re also following breaking news, Bill Cosby, guilty on all counts in his sexual assault retrial. CNN and HLN legal analyst, one of my
favorite people, Joey Jackson, is outside the courthouse in Norristown, Pennsylvania. Joey, it`s so bittersweet today. I mean, I love the guy, but,
you know, justice is justice. What do you think about the decision?
JOEY JACKSON, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, CNN AND HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Absolutely, Pat, good to be on with you. Just an amazing and surreal moment
today. It`s just unbelievable. Helicopters flying around, streets packed, across the street packed, courtroom right here packed, outside packed.
And, you know, look, this has been a long time coming. Remember the first trial, ending in a hung jury after the jury deliberated for 52 hours. This
jury, after two days and 15 hours, found him guilty on everything.
They asked for read back, they asked what consent meant initially, Pat. And what ended up happening, the judge said use your judgment, you tell us what
consent means, go back, get it right.
They wanted to hear from Cosby with his deposition testimony in terms of his interactions with Andrea Constand. And then of course Marguerite
Jackson, the ace in the hole. And with the ace in the hole being, she said that it was all made up by Andrea.
Jury rejected that. They found Cosby guilty all three counts. Cosby out now on no bail -- excuse me, allowed bail, allowed to go home on a bracelet.
And so the defense says they will appeal. We`ll see going forward what happens. You know he faces 10 years as to each count.
LALAMA: Thank you, Joey. And this time, the jury did its due diligence. The next hour of "Crime and Justice" starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): Police department. Sheriff speaking.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): The east area rapist --
[19:00:02] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): I`m going to kill you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shut up, I`m going to kill you. Don`t move.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Every night I pray, you know, dear Lord, please, have the east area rapist identified.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They will never figure out who I am. I have nothing to worry about.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The answer was, and always was going to be, in the DNA.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you guys pictured his garbage?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I will just say its discarded DNA.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shakes you to the core.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bone chilling.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m shaking.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our team is going to work hard to make sure that he never gets out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I never lost hope, I never lost hope.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LALAMA: Good evening, everyone. I`m Pat Lalama from Crime Watch Daily, in for Ashleigh Banfield. And this is CRIME & JUSTICE.
One of Joseph Deangelo`s co-workers is a SAVE Mart in Roseville, California said he seemed like a regular Joe except he never smiled. It turned out
that Deangelo was anything but a regular Joe. Authorities say he was the man behind 12 killings, 45 rapes and more than 100 burglaries, attributed
to the so-called golden state killer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEVIN TAPIA, NEIGHBOR OF SUSPECT: He would go into random outbursts in his yard when he was by himself. He would get frustrated working on something
and he would just start cursing really loudly, to the point where you could hear it, you know, for many houses. He yelled at my parents for the water
was dripping into his backyard, and another neighbor for mowing the lawn too soon. He just seemed very irritable. But never really wanted to look
you in the eye necessarily and talk.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: I want to bring in my panel. We have investigative journalist Billy Jensen, Golden State killer victim Jane Carson, she wrote the book
"frozen in fear," a true story of surviving the shadows of death. Cold case investigator Paul Holes. He began working on the golden state killer
case in 1994. Defense attorney Heather Hansen. Larry Crompton, former sergeant with the contract Costa sheriff`s office and the author of "Sudden
Terror," and Jack Gorman, neighbor of the alleged golden state killer.
Straight out to you, Billy Jensen. So two things, first of all, you are my colleague on "Crime Watch Daily," but interestingly, you also helped finish
this book that is now flying off shelves about this case. So what strikes you as interesting about this happening?
Let me even begin by asking you this, why is this story -- why can people not get enough of it? There are a lot of serial killers and there is a lot
of gritty cases, and everybody seems to look crimes these days, but what about this case stands out?
JENSEN: Well, it was the same reason why Michelle started writing about it to begin with is that there was so much evidence and there were so many
clues and so many red herrings and so many twists and turns. And we work in crime programming. And you know that those are all the elements of a
great story, all the twists and turns.
And the fact that there`s 50 rapes, 12 murders, there is DNA, there is evidence left at the scene, there is a lot of evidence of things that he
took from the scene, so there was a lot of stuff to go through. And but he was still never caught. That`s what made it so interesting of -- and
powerful as a case.
And on top of that, that he was one of the most terrifying serial killers that we have ever seen because he was attacking people in their most
vulnerable places, which was inside their home. He wasn`t like Joel Rifkin who is attacking a sex worker. He wasn`t like son of Sam going out on
lovers` lanes. He was getting people inside their home which where you feel the most safe. And that`s what he got off on.
LALAMA: Very well said.
Paul Holes, cold case investigator, you know, this man`s M.O. was so strange to me, and aside from that what I`m leading to is this, victims and
people who are harmed by crime always want to say the cops aren`t doing enough. I`m not saying that`s the case here. But people do just generally
feel that way because they`re so emotionally attached to wanting justice. But in this case, based on what you had, there wasn`t the evolution of DNA
in the beginning, you didn`t know what he looked like, this was a complex case, was it not?
HOLES: It was absolutely. It was very complicated and you had an offender who was savvy enough to throw law enforcement off with everything that he
did. He tried to make himself look like something he was not. And now in retrospect, taken it look at who he was. He was a law enforcement officer
hiding behind the badge. You can understand, I can now see why we had such a difficult time trying to untangle the clues that were left behind.
LALAMA: I want to bring in a new guest, Jack Gorman, very special guest because you might be able to give us some insight into the man. You were
neighbors with Deangelo. And you have some very chilling stories to tell us. Jack, welcome, thank you for sharing your stories. What can you tell
us?
[19:05:10] JACK GORMAN, NEIGHBOR OF ALLEGED GOLDEN STATE KILLER (on the phone): Well, thank you for having me.
LALAMA: Tell us about some of the incidents.
GORMAN: He left a phone message at our house one day that our dog had been barking and it was annoying him and he was going to deliver a load of death
to our house if we didn`t do something about our barking dogs.
LALAMA: A load of death. So what year was this and how did you respond to that?
GORMAN: Well, this was about 32 years ago now.
LALAMA: Whoa.
GORMAN: And what I did was I -- because our fence backed up to his fence, you know, our backyards backed up each other, I went out and confronted him
on it. He confessed that he did leave the message. There was a verbal altercation. I made some threats. He didn`t really make any threats back.
I think I carried on most of the conversation. He seemed to not really be aggressive at that point. But I questioned a few things -- I`m sorry.
LALAMA: Go ahead, Jack, please go ahead.
GORMAN: Yes, no, I questioned -- the reason why he did it, of course, it was just the barking dog made him crazy. And you know, I think it was a
short trip for him. He was already there.
LALAMA: Exactly. You say, jack, this was 32 years ago. Is this a different home than the home we are now staking out?
GORMAN: No, same home.
LALAMA: Same home. So he has lived there for quite a while, 32 years.
GORMAN: Yes.
LALAMA: So, if we go backwards, that`s pretty scary when you think about it.
Now, I want to ask Larry Crompton, the sergeant with Contra Costa sheriff`s department, one of the first guys on this case. So, isn`t saying I`m going
to hand you a load of death? That`s a terrorist threat. And a lot of people don`t understand that meaning, terrorist not terrorist but it is you
are making terror toward a person. Could he have been arrested for that?
CROMPTON (on the phone): Yes, he could. But I don`t know that it would have done any good.
LALAMA: Yes, because what could you do with that?
CROMPTON: There is not much we could have done with it.
LALAMA: Right. Does it bother you that he was to adept at staying under the radar for so long? As law enforcement, it would just make me -- I
would be so angry that, you know, not that he outsmarted you, don`t get me wrong, but he must have some level of brilliance to be able to do what he
did for so long.
CROMPTON: Yes. And during the cases there was different people saying that they didn`t think there was one person, that there was two. And if
there had been two, one of them would have had to have said something. So he did work alone. And he had -- he had this in his mind of how he was
going to do it. And if something happened that set it off his -- the way that he wanted to do it, then he would quit and he would leave. So to work
against somebody like him, it`s very, very, very difficult because he is not stupid. He knows what he is going to do. And he knows how he is going
to do it.
And there was one case where the young girl that he took down into the field and got talking to her and found out that she was a high school
student, and he was after the neighbor who was a college student. It confused him to the point where he left. He did not attack her.
LALAMA: I want to ask Jane Carson --
CROMPTON: That`s the kind of person he was.
LALAMA: I`m sorry, Larry.
I want to ask Jane Carson, a victim of the alleged rapist killer. How did he speak to you? Did he yell at you? Did he talk calmly? Did he try to
engage in conversation? Did he -- you tell me.
CARSON: The minute that I screamed when I -- when he ran down the hall and had that flashlight in my eyes and that big butcher knife facing my chest,
he immediately said, with clinched teeth, shut up or I`ll kill you.
And I`ll just tell you exactly how he said it. He said shut up, shut up, shut up shut up or I`ll kill you. If he said that once during the time he
was in my home, he said it ten times. And he spoke through clinched teeth. I didn`t know -- at one point he did say to me you looked good at the "O"
club, and that was not with clinched teeth. So I don`t think this man stuttered and someone had, you know, mentioned that possibly he had. But
when he said "O" club, that immediately made me think, OK, this guy`s been in the military, because otherwise a layperson would say the officer`s
club.
[19:10:02] LALAMA: Right. Well, we know now, of course, that he was in the Navy, you and your husband were air force. Correct?
CARSON: Yes. Yes, ma`am.
LALAMA: And Jane, let me ask you this, do you intend to show up at court? Do you intend to follow the cases? If you could see him and do you want to
see him, and what would you say to him?
CARSON: Yes, I will definitely try to be in court. And I would like at some point to be able to sit across the table and speak with him and ask
him, again, where did you put my son? Why did you move my son? Were you just trying to be a nice guy? Or, you know, did you just want more room on
the bed when you raped me? I have no idea.
LALAMA: And your son was three years old?
CARSON: He was three years old, yes.
LALAMA: Jane, I have just got to ask you, sorry for interrupting.
CARSON: That`s OK.
LALAMA: Psychologically, you seem so strong, you seem so pragmatic, though I know you have to be scarred somewhat, how did you get through it? How
are you here today speaking so eloquently about one of the most horrific things I have ever heard in my many, many years as a crime reporter.
CARSON: Through my faith in God. That`s what`s kept me strong. That`s where I get my strength. I read the book "a Purpose Driven Life" a few
years ago by Rick Warren, and it talked about, you know, what is your purpose? And I think one of my major purposes is to, you know, make this
mess into a message and turn the pain into power. Do something positive with it. Don`t remain a victim.
And I would really like to encourage other women out there that have been assaulted to come forward and talk to a counselor, go to the rape crisis
center, talk to a best friend. But for goodness sakes, get rid of -- stop being a prisoner. Because when you are a prisoner the rapist is still in
control.
LALAMA: That`s exactly right. That`s exactly right. And you are such an example. And, you know, we need you on this earth. Don`t go anywhere. We
definitely need you.
Billy Jensen, you know, you have spent a lot of time, you are like a human computer when it comes to this case. So for you personally, what does it
feel like to have this come to fruition allegedly? We still don`t know for sure, but, you know, we are keeping our fingers crossed.
JENSEN: You know, I`m still in the phase right now where, you know, the elation and the adrenaline has dropped off and now it`s sort of about sad
for the people that aren`t here, you know, the fathers of the victims, that sort of thing, the mothers of the victims, just the people that have passed
within this time period that would have liked to have seen this guy`s face and be brought to justice.
And now, you know, the next thing that I`m thinking about is, you know, building a timeline for this guy and trying to figure out what else did he
do? And where was he when other cold cases might have been around? Either rapes or murders, that they didn`t do a rape kit on or didn`t collect any
DNA. And that`s going to be the questions that are going to move forward, the most interesting question for me as we move forward.
LALAMA: Well, I`m glad you said that because I was going to ask you about, you know, could there be other people? And it sounds so trite because we
always ask that question when it comes to these kind of cases. But there`s a really good chance, considering this profound advancement in DNA
technology. Correct?
JENSEN: Absolutely. And he was prolific. And, you know, back then in the late `70s or even, you know, he could have been attacking people in the
late `60s, who knows? You know, rape kits weren`t necessarily done all the time. Crimes weren`t reported. Crimes were reported, but they were filed
away and then they were lost.
So, you know, getting this message out there as much as we were able to get it out with the book and with, you know, all of the stories, the stories
that you guys told on HLN, all of that stuff, so people knew about it, and they were able to put resources behind it because, you know, people were
thinking about, hey, there`s this big serial killer out here. Let`s try to look for him through all these methods. That`s the way we did that through
the media. And we need to be able to do that, you know, in looking for other cases.
LALAMA: Do we still have Jack Gorman? If we do, Jack, you know, you told our producers that your children played with his children. Can you tell us
about that?
GORMAN: Well, you know, that really wasn`t that big of a deal. My daughter played with his daughter a few times. It wasn`t like they were
best of friends. There really wasn`t that much communication between his side of the fence and ours (INAUDIBLE). Seemed like every time I talked to
him it was a heated exchange.
LALAMA: Wow.
GORMAN: And I tried to keep my daughter away from him because there were days when you would hear him in his backyard screaming and yelling in a
heated argument, profanity laced, just a really aggressive argument. And I looked over the fence and there was nobody down there but him.
LALAMA: Oh, my goodness.
[19:15:00] GORMAN: And he was walking in circles in the yard, arguing with -- he wasn`t arguing with himself, he was arguing with somebody else,
responding to them, but there was nobody there.
LALAMA: That is really fascinating. Did you ever allow your daughter to go to their side of the fence?
GORMAN: No, no, not at all.
LALAMA: Jack, I`m glad you are OK. I`m glad your family is OK.
Straight ahead, more of our continuing coverage of the arrest of Joseph James Deangelo, the alleged golden state killer. And at 8:00 eastern, HLN
presents an encore presentation of all five episodes of "Unmasking A Killer," HLN`s in-depth investigation into the decades long search for the
Golden State Killer.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
[19:20:33] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know that a lot of people have searched the world over looking for similar cases.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An investigative track can completely take you down the wrong path.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was out hunting, peeping, exposing himself.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The police were not in any way anticipating that this could be the work of a serial killer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The ski mask is completely on. And so, all he really saw was the offender`s eyes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were looking for a needle in a hay stack.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We don`t even know the full extent.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it`s very likely that the (INAUDIBLE) is the east area rapist, the original night stalker, which ultimately the golden
state killer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We will, God willing, hold this man fully accountable for his crimes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
And it took 42 years to crack the case of the golden state serial killer. A former cop reportedly fired for stealing items from a drugstore, the
breakthrough came in the last six days thanks to DNA evidence. And now authorities are working to build a case in court that proves Joseph James
Deangelo is, in fact, the golden state killer.
My panel still with me, back out to my colleague Billy Jensen from "Crime Watch Daily."
You know, Billy, what I think, and we have covered a lot of this stuff as journalists, what really amazes me is how he has able to stay under the
radar. So when he gets fired as a cop, then he works for a grocery chain. Tell us a little about that part of his history.
JENSEN: Yes. When you think about it, though, wasn`t that a big red flag? You are fired because you are accused of stealing two items in particular,
a dog repellent and a hammer. And when they say, all right, we are going to have a hearing, then he just says, no, I don`t want a hearing, just fire
me, I`m good.
You know, you rarely ever see -- you know, cops can do a lot worse things. And then you see a union come up and tried to defend them. You know, he
just walked away from that. That should have been a big red flag there might be something up with this guy and what is he hiding? But he just
walked away. That`s the biggest thing that I, you know, the craziest thing about the stuff we found on newspapers.com and looking into this guy`s
background.
LALAMA: Well, but let me ask this to my guest, who is Paul Holes, cold case investigator.
Paul, he flew under the radar, and his company said there was never anything he ever did that made anybody feel like he was creepy or they were
creped out. Is that possible for someone who`s this prolific? I guess you can look at son of Sam, and, you know, a lot of those who led these lives
that seemed rather normal. Do you feel that`s the case here?
HOLES: Oh, absolutely. You know, the notorious offend I liken golden state killer the most is BTK (INAUDIBLE).
LALAMA: Right.
HOLES: And he flew under the radar. And that`s what we are seeing with Joe Deangelo. He was out talking to his neighbors. He was puttering
around his house. He had hobbies. He was living a normal life. Nobody would suspect by watching him he was this horrible, horrible killer.
LALAMA: Right. But defense attorney Heather Hansen, the thing is, people said he was grumpy. He yelled a lot of people got too close to his, you
know, yard line. He would go crazy. That he was a real screamer. That`s not really enough to make anyone think I live next to a serial killer
though?
HANSEN: Absolutely not, Pat. You don`t know what goes on behind closed doors. We see that all the time with these cases. And unfortunately,
whether you are a yeller, some people are just grumpy neighbors, now we know that he was probably trying to hide the fact, you know, that he had
taken all of these items from all of these women. I know Jane is hoping to get some of those items back.
So the fact he had all this stuff in his home, who knows what could be buried under his yard. Of course he wanted people to stay away. But
telling people to stay out of my yard is not enough to put people on notice that there may be something more than that.
LALAMA: Jane, let me ask you, Jane Carson, who is a victim of the alleged suspect. He has three daughters, we understand. I find that just so hard
to wrap my head around, he has got daughters, three daughters. And I`m still curious about what his relationship was like with them. We know that
one of them, we are told, moved back in with him with a child. So he is also a grandfather. He was married. We are unclear whether he actually
did get divorced, the woman being a family law attorney. So, Jane, as a woman, what goes through your mind when you hear all of this?
CARSON: It`s just really difficult to understand, and I don`t really have enough background information to really comment on it. It just -- the
whole thing is just so bizarre, just absolutely bizarre. Why didn`t his wife, why didn`t his daughters know what was going on?
[19:25:16] LALAMA: Larry Crompton, do you have any insight into the psychology of this kind of a man, who was a decorated Navy man during the
Vietnam war, was a decorated police officer, has a degree in criminal justice, his worst crime on record was a DUI. What insight can you offer
us?
CROMPTON: What I saw from the very beginning was that he had a definite hatred towards women, whether it was because of his mother, because of his
mother didn`t protect him against a father, or because a problem he had with a woman earlier.
But I talk to psychiatrists, and they told me you had better be careful. If you catch him before he commits the crime, he is going to be so normal
that you will not be able to put anything together on him. If you catch him as he is leaving a crime, then you are going to be in trouble. And he
will either kill you or he will kill himself.
LALAMA: Unbelievable.
CROMPTON: And I got that from more than one psychiatrist, that that is the way that his mind worked.
LALAMA: Billy Jensen, let me ask you. He told the police I have a roast in the oven. What kind of psychological insight does that give you, that
he thought he was invincible, he`s still worried about his roast, he is not thinking about what lies ahead?
JENSEN: You know what? I think he knew his jig was up. He knew this day was coming.
LALAMA: Really?
JENSEN: Yes, he knew this day was coming. I think he was watching the things that were going on with this case, you know, the book had just been
a best seller. It was the number one "New York Times" best seller, still on the best seller list, number one book in the country right now. And,
you know, he was seeing all of this stuff that was going on. And I think he heard those footsteps and he knew. He knew it was just a matter of time
because he saw what was going on with the technology. He saw other serial killers being caught through familial DNA.
LALAMA: Right. That`s a good point.
Now, Billy, listen, I know you`ve heard this. I don`t know that everyone in the audience has heard this. This is a really creepy sound. I`m going
to let you hear it and then we`ll talk about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello? Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going kill you. I`m going to kill you. I`m going kill you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: OK, so who feels like locking the doors right now? Unbelievable.
Paul Holes, cold case investigator, we can`t say for sure that that is the alleged killer. Explain to us what that`s all about.
HOLES: Well, that was a phone call made to the very first official east area rapist victim who was attacked in June of 1976. That phone call came
in in January of `78, almost 18 months later. The -- we can`t say for sure. We don`t have telephone records. We don`t have anything that would
actually match it up to the east area rapist, but we`re highly confident that was the east area rapist calling her. That`s what he liked, it was
that psychological terror. He got off on that.
LALAMA: You just hit the nail on the head. And I want to go back to Billy.
One of the interesting and disgusting aspects of his M.O. is loving to terrorize people, just really demeaning, degrading, insulting,
demoralizing, putting plates on top of victims` bodies and saying if I hear one cup crash, you are dead. Give us insight into that M.O.
JENSEN: This was never about sex, you know.
LALAMA: Right.
JENSEN: This was about power. And, you know, he went and he graduated from the power of breaking into somebody`s house and stealing something.
And then he graduated into breaking into someone`s house and stealing their body for three or four hours, and then leaving. And then stealing their
body when they are next to their mate in the most safest place you should be, and then he graduated to actually being the ultimate king of the home
and killing these people. That`s what he thought he was. This was an ultimate power trip for this guy.
And, you know, now that he is -- he is caught, now that we see his face, all his power is gone
[19:30:00]. His power has completely been evaporated. And now, we just have to see if there are any other victims that might have slid under the
radar on top of the 12 murders and 50 rapes.
LALAMA: Absolutely. I want my panel to stick around. Our breaking news coverage continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:35:27] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Golden State Killer is a burglar, rapist, serial killer who terrorized California from 1976 to 1986.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the most prolific criminal killer in California history.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you look at the investigations into the Southern California homicides, you do see the original investigators recognizing
that there are some similar cases.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s consistent in terms of what he is doing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the same guy. We had a serial rapist going. His M.O. was so identifiable even the officers arriving at the scene would
know that it was the serial rapist.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Well, one of the newest inmates at the Sacramento County Jail is perhaps California`s most notorious killer. After his arrest, neighbors
described him as being angry, having outbursts in unneighborly ways. But it`s hard to imagine anyone truly suspected James DeAngelo was indeed the
Golden State Killer. My panel is still with me and we are pleased to add Sean Ragan, Special Agent in Charge, Sacramento FBI. Sean, I think I have
not yet told people that there are currently now eight murder counts. Can you expound for us.
SEAN RAGAN, SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE, FBI SACRAMENTO DIVISION (via telephone): I`ll leave that up to the prosecutors of this case. I can`t
confirm the exact count at this point.
LALAMA: OK. Well, there are eight. We`ll confirm it for you. And I know you can`t really talk about the prosecutorial side. But what do you make
of these developments? What happens next? He goes to court, what happens next? Goes to court tomorrow, I think.
RAGAN: For sure. So, this is an ongoing investigation. As you know, there`s many alleged crimes incurred by this alleged suspect through a
course of 13 years. And so, investigation continues into each of those crimes that this subject is suspected of committing. And then, each of the
independent jurisdictions, the county`s D.A.s offices will be putting together their cases, trying to have -- determine whether there`s enough
evidence to charge in their particular locality. And then -- and then, if there is, taking the case through the prosecutorial phase into the judicial
system.
LALAMA: You know, give us some insight into behind the scenes for law enforcement. You know, you guys do such a great job in the field,
everything that you do investigative wise. But I`d like a little bit of personal sense of what it was like when you all realized you had this man
in custody.
RAGAN: A sense of relief. This is, as you know, investigations have been going on across multiple jurisdictions in the State of California for
decades. So, all of the investigators at both the state, local, federal level, in the law enforcement agencies, the district attorney`s offices,
have all been working in conjunction with one another to collaborate and come up with enough facts to, obviously, identify the perpetrator, and
then, make this arrest. And so, a sense of accomplishment, a sense of relief for the community, and a relief for the victims and their families.
That was really what drove everybody, and really the investigators assigned to these cases, the day in and day out. Their passion was really driven by
trying to find justice for the victims in these crimes, and the family members of those victims, no matter how long it took.
LALAMA: So good. Larry Crompton, I`m guessing you second to everything that was just said?
CROMPTON (via telephone): I`m sorry, I couldn`t hear it.
LALAMA: I`m sorry, well, he was just talking about the dedication. You were not going to give up on this. And I just want to know, why? How do
you -- how do you have that drive for a case that`s so frustrating that you didn`t know really what he looked like, you had nothing in the DNA
database. You know, it started out that there wasn`t even DNA that we knew -- technologically -- how to use that technologically. So, what kind of a
relief for you is this?
[19:39:58] CROMPTON: Now, with me, that`s for many, many years, I`d wake up at 3:00 in the morning and say, what did I do wrong? What did I miss?
My job was to catch him. And I finally let it come to my mind that this wasn`t about me. This was about the victims and the victims` families.
So, I could look at it in a different manner after that. And now, that he is in custody, I look at it as this is great for the victims and their
families. This is what it`s all about. It`s not about me, and it`s not about law enforcement. We have a job to do. And fortunately, the
detectives that were working this case at that time when they caught him, they did their job. But they didn`t do it for them. They did it for the
victims.
LALAMA: That`s exactly right. That`s exactly right. And on that note, Jane Carson, I`m sure you`re incredibly grateful to the people who never
lost sight of you and the others. I`m going to let you drive how far you want me to go with your own personal story. I don`t want to cross any
lines of privacy. But we talked about terror and I`m just wondering, did the alleged killer and rapist terrorize you -- oh, the whole situation is
terror, so that I don`t want to undermine that but did he use any games? Did he play any games to try to make you feel just horrific?
CARSON: I think his whole game was about power and control. I really feel that -- for myself it was just all about terror from the moment he ran down
the hall with a flashlight in his hand wearing that ski mask with that large butcher knife in his hand, the black leather jacket, the gloves, the
-- he just wanted to inflict fear. And I wrote a book, and I named it "Frozen In Fear" because that was the major emotion that I was feeling at
that time. And then, before he raped me, he moved my 3-year-old son, and I had no idea where he had put him. Did he put him in another room, did he
put him on the floor, did he kill him? I had absolutely no idea. So, to be very truthful, I do not remember very much about the rape. It was all
about fear. And then, he had this -- OK, I`m sorry.
LALAMA: No, please go ahead.
CARSON: I`m sorry?
LALAMA: Go ahead, Jane, continue.
CARSON: Oh, and then, one -- he had a very strange behavior of -- again, before he raped me of tearing sheets, tearing towels. And he did this for
the longest time and I thought, OK, what is he doing? Now, mind you, we are blindfolded, we are gagged, and we are tied up. But I could hear him
tearing these towels and tearing these sheets, and I`m thinking, OK, what`s his next move? Is he going to hang us? Is he going to bound us even more?
I had -- I had no idea. So, it was truly a very frightening, frightening, frightening experience. It was just -- my heart was just beating through
my chest. So --
LALAMA: Oh, well, I think you`re the strongest woman in America. Unbelievable. Just -- it`s so impressive. I love listening to you.
CARSON: Well --
LALAMA: More of our continuing coverage of the capture of the alleged Golden State Killer straight ahead.
[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shut up, I`m going to kill you. I knew it absolutely it was the east area rapist at that point.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As information started to point towards this individual, we were able to confirm what we thought we already knew, that
we had our man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, there were no fingerprints, there were no hair and fiber. You could only connect him through M.O.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was like a broken record. He would wake the victims up with a flashlight or stick a gun in their face. When he talked, it was
through clinched teeth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you scream, I`ll kill you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do as I say, I`m going to kill you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve got a .45 and I will use it, I will kill you. I`ll stick you with my knife.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: You know, in a way, Joseph James DeAngelo was just the nasty neighbor next door according to people we`ve talked to. He wasn`t so
friendly and he got irate when lawns were mowed too early or late in the day. In other words, to most people he was just kind of ordinary, maybe a
little cranky. And that maybe the one of the reasons it took 42 years and DNA evidence to finally track him down. My panel is still with me. Back
out to my colleague from "Crime Watch Daily," Billy Jensen. You know, Billy, someone mentioned earlier that he may have hated his mom or hated
someone who broke his heart. Do you have any insight into that? I`d love to know what his parents were like.
JENSEN: I think that`s the next steps right now, and I think every person that`s going to want to write a biography about this guy is going to start
digging into his past and see what happened. You know, there`s the questions of the logistics of the case, and the numbers of victims, and how
he did his stuff. But we`re going to want to know why. You know, what makes somebody do this and do it in such a -- an insane manner that was
incredibly meticulous? He was not a frothing, raving lunatic.
[19:50:01] LALAMA: Right, right.
JENSEN: You know, Jane has said that in the past. You know, this guy was under control, and he just had an idea of what he wanted to do. And the
idea was all about power and keeping that power over people.
LALAMA: Yes. Heather Hansen, defense attorney, I was talking to a lawyer yesterday about what do you do if this case falls in your lap. Now, that
we know more, a little more about his M.O., and we all know everyone is entitled to a defense. That`s our system and it`s a good one. But how --
you take a case that`s going to go to court tomorrow, what`s -- first, tell us what`s likely to happen, and then, secondly, if you are the attorney of
record, what do you do with this case?
HANSEN: What`s likely to happen tomorrow, Pat, is going to be very quick. They`ll try to ask for bail. I don`t think bail will be given, given the
level of his crimes, the number of his crimes, and how dangerous he is. And then, if you are his defense attorney, you have to figure out either
some sort of a defense or some sort of mitigation. The first thought is always some sort of mental health situation. As Billy pointed out, not
just biographers, but lawyers, psychiatrists, all types of people will be interviewing him, looking into his past, looking into things to either
excuse it, which I don`t think is going to happen, or explain it, which might mitigate it. He`s an older man. Chances are he is going to spend
the rest of his life in jail. But, you know, as an attorney, part of your job is to do what you can to serve him and make sure that he gets every
step of the way fair due process, and that`s how the system works.
LALAMA: Right. And -- yes. And when people -- and I`m sure you`ve heard it, when people say, how can you represent that guy, and they take it
personally that you have a job of representing really icky people. But if we didn`t have that, we`d have kangaroo courts all around the world. So, I
have a question now for Paul Holes. He`s a cold case investigator. One of the things I find interesting and I`ve heard this in other cases, is that a
criminal sometimes starts small and kind of puts the (INAUDIBLE 51:52) in the water, OK, I`ve got 120 robberies going or burglaries, and then, they
go to the rape and it`s just the rape of the women, and I`m talking about this case, and then, you include the men, you include the children. Have
you ran into that kind of M.O. quite a lot in your profession?
HOLES: Well, you do see individuals that will evolve and follow that general pattern. But we`ve never run into an individual like the Golden
State Killer where he escalated all the way up to where he is attacking. Consistently attacking with men in the house, with guns in the house. He
evolved to the extreme.
LALAMA: He certainly did and when, you know, Billy talks about power and control, well, let me ask this to Billy. Having the men around, was that
to humiliate the man to say, oh, look what I`m doing to your wife? Is it that sick?
JENSEN: I think it was just another measure of control. He was just upping the ante there. You know, you can wait for the man to leave the
house but it might be even more of a thrill to have the man there.
LALAMA: As sick at it gets. Breaking news out of Pennsylvania tonight where America`s dad, Bill Cosby is now known as convicted felon Bill Cosby.
Details up next and at 8:00 Eastern, "UNMASKING A KILLER" marathon. All five episodes of HLN`s in depth investigation into the search for the
Golden State Killer.
[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LALAMA: According to the CDC, homicide is the number one cause of death for black men ages 15 to 34. It`s a grim stat, but for this week`s CNN
hero, an E.R. doctor in Brooklyn, it pushed him to take action. Meet Dr. Rob Gore.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. ROB GORE, CNN HERO: I don`t like pronouncing people dead. It`s probably the worst thing that I`ve ever had to do. I want to preserve
life. When I see patients that are coming in with violent injuries, when somebody looks like you from your neighborhood, a lot of this stuff really
hits home. You realize I don`t want this to happen anymore. What do we do about it?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Go to CNN Heroes to watch the full story or nominate someone you think should be a CNN Hero.
Breaking news tonight in the Bill Cosby sexual assault trial. The 80-year- old comedian was convicted of three counts of aggravated indecent assault. Cosby accuser Andrea Constand testified that in 2004, he gave her three
blue pills and she then blacked out. When she awoke, he was assaulting her. Cosby is free on $1 million bond until his sentencing. He faces up
to 30 years in prison.
We`ll see you back here Monday night at 6:00 Eastern. Thanks for watching. "UNMASKING A KILLER" begins right now.
END
