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Trump Unfiltered and Unleashed in Wild TV Interview; Prosecutors Cite Trump's Interview Today in Cohen Case; Special Master Appointed to Review Evidence in Cohen Case; Pruitt Contradicts Himself as He Faces Lawmakers' Questions. Aired 1-1:30p ET
Aired April 26, 2018 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:07]
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello. I'm Wolf Blitzer. If you're watching from around the world, thank you very much for joining us.
We have got some breaking news. Mike Pompeo, the now former CIA director, has just been confirmed by the U.S. Senate to become the nation's 70th Secretary of State. There were -- a few Democrats, I should say, that voted to confirm Pompeo. He has been confirmed. He will be sworn in as the new Secretary of State, much more on this coming up.
There is other important news we're following. President Trump clearly unfiltered, unleashed and lashing out. The lengthy phone interview with Fox News, the president took aim at the U.S. Justice Department, the fired FBI Director James Comey and a whole bunch of Democrats, just to name a few. He also tried to distance himself from his personal attorney and longtime friend and fixer, Michael Cohen, who is under criminal investigation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE DOOCY, HOST, FOX AND FRIENDS: How much of your legal work was handled by Michael Cohen?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, as a percentage of my overall legal work, a tiny, tiny little fraction. But Michael would represent me and represent me on some things, he represents me, like, with this crazy Stormy Daniels deal. He represented me, and, you know, from what I see, he did absolutely nothing wrong. If there were no campaign funds going into this --
AINSLEY EARHARDT, HOST, FOX AND FRIENDS: Then why is he pleading the Fifth?
TRUMP: -- which would have been a problem. Because he's got other things. He's got businesses and from what I understand they're looking at his businesses, and I hope he's in great shape.
BRIAN KILMEADE, HOST, FOX AND FRIENDS: Yes. TRUMP: But he's got businesses, and his lawyers probably told him to do that. But I'm not involved, and I'm not involved.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: CNN's Kaitlan Collins, she is over at the White House for us. Kaitlan, the president says Michael Cohen only handled a tiny, tiny fraction of his legal work. So, set the scene for us. These late developments, what the president is now saying and how it falls into place.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Well, Wolf, we saw the president there trying to put an ocean of distance between him and Michael Cohen, someone who I should note has been the president's attorney for over a decade now, and he has handled some of his most sensitive matters. And he's someone who has said he would take a bullet for President Trump. But there in that interview acknowledging for the first time that Michael Cohen did represent him when he made that $130,000 payment to -- Stephanie Clifford or Stormy Daniels, I should note. Something that is very stunning. Certainly, something that is likely to complicate legal matters for Michael Cohen as he's under investigation. And certainly, going to raise some questions about what conversation between the president and Michael Cohen were privileged. As he said, he only handled a tiny, small part of business for him.
But the president in that interview, Wolf, also addressing another controversy of the day. The VA secretary nominee, Dr. Ronny Jackson, the White House decision has withdrawn his nomination. The president essentially saying that he was standing by Dr. Ronny Jackson and that he thinks he's been -- treated unfairly in this entire process.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
He would've done a great job -
DOOCY: Did -
TRUMP: He's got a tremendous heart.
DOOCY: Any idea who you might -
TRUMP: You know, these are all false accusations that were made. These are false, and they're trying to destroy a man. By the way, I did say welcome to Washington. Welcome to the swamp. Welcome to the world of politics.
KILMEADE: Sure.
TRUMP: But for Jon Tester to start bringing up stuff like 'Candy Man' and the kind of things he was saying, and then say well, you know, these are just statements that are made.
DOOCY: Right.
TRUMP: There's no proof of this. And he has a perfect record. He's got this beautiful record.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Wolf, the president continuing to defend Dr. Ronny Jackson even just a few minutes ago while speaking with kids. It is bring your kid to work day here at the White House, the president defending Dr. Ronny Jackson in front of those children. And I should note as we reported earlier today that Dr. Jackson is expected to stay on here as the White House physician. So even though those allegations were enough to pull his nomination, he is going to continue on as the White House doctor as the president continues to defend him here, Wolf. And we'll see where that goes from here.
BLITZER: We certainly will. Kaitlan thanks very much.
We have a lot to discuss with our panel. We have CNN senior White House correspondent, Jeff Zeleny, Shannon Pettypiece is with us, the White House reporter from Bloomberg News, Ambassador Norman Eisen, CNN contributor and former White House Ethics czar, also with us, CNN legal analyst Laura Coates.
So, let me get your reaction, Laura, first to what the president said that you know Michael Cohen only did a tiny, tiny, tiny little fraction of his legal work. How does that play out in both of these legal cases that are underway in New York and Los Angeles?
LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it totally undermines and fatal is the idea that most of what was collected in a raid on Michael Cohen's home, hotel room and office would be overwhelmingly privileged information. If it's an attorney-client privilege you're worried about, if only a tiny fraction of it, then we should have no problem getting through all the information, and a court finds that a lot can be disclosed and used by the prosecutors in this case.
[13:05:00] It also suggests, in one hand, if you tell to Fox News that he represented you in the Stormy Daniels matter, well, it's an odd what you said in an off the cuff remark that you made on Air Force One that you had no idea about the payment or why or where it came from or why it was made. And so, it really contradicts in a way that's going to probably inure the benefit of Michael Avenatti's legal team.
BLITZER: You know, it is take your kids to work day today all over the country including over at the White House. The president has been meeting with some kids over in the Rose Garden, and he just said this about Dr. Ronny Jackson. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: He's a great man. He got treated very, very unfairly. He got treated really unfairly. He's a hell of a man.
OK. Let's go inside. We'll go in the Oval Office. Whose is this?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: All right. He's a great man. He got treated very unfairly. He's a hell of a man. What do you think?
AMB. NORMAN EISEN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, Wolf, I know him from my White House days.
BLITZER: Dr. Jackson?
EISEN: Dr. Jackson. And I don't think he was treated unfairly. He was never qualified for this job. The president is the one who treated him very unfairly by not vetting him. We know the mere fact that he had a security clearance is no substitute for a vet. In fact, I wrote in the "New York Times" that vets often bring out other details. That's happened now. We don't know how much of it would have been borne out in congressional hearings. The allegations are very troubling. And this is a nomination that never should have been made. Dr. Jackson was not qualified. I feel sad for him but also sad for the country that the president has cast the process through his improvisation in such a mess.
BLITZER: Shannon, the president keeps blaming what he calls obstructionist Democrats.
SHANNON PETTYPIECE, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, BLOOMBERG NEWS: And now the question is, OK, when can we get a VA secretary in there? Now someone else needs to be named. You would presume they would go through a vetting process more thoroughly with the next person. You've got the Secretary of State just getting through. We need a new CIA director, secretary of the VA, possibly a new head of the EPA. Right, with Democrats not necessarily helping, how many of these positions are going to be now held vacant for potentially over a year and having an acting secretary or director in a lot of these positions.
BLITZER: You know, I want to get back to the Michael Cohen comments from the president of the United States. Jeff, a lot of these experts are saying what the president has done is undermined Michael Cohen's case, for all practical purposes, right now.
JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: He certainly hasn't helped it. I mean, if you look at everything that the president has said about Michael Cohen starting back on Air Force One a couple weeks ago, that was certainly not a helpful thing because it may have precipitated this legal matter in New York. But I think a lot of the president's advisers, at least the ones I speak with, would she would stop answering questions and talking about Michael Cohen. There is nothing he can say that would be helpful here. Anything he can say would not be helpful.
The idea that he was sort of saying, oh, you know these are his business dealings, essentially saying he's not that familiar with him, just does not speak to the facts. He talks with him frequently. He had dinner at Mar-a-Lago. Just a couple weeks ago he was knee deep in the Stormy Daniels situation. So, I think, that you know the president is not helping Michael Cohen.
Back to Dr. Ronny Jackson just one second, we should point out for the record. Republicans were also raising questions about this confirmation. The president, the White House were saying, oh, it's Jon Tester only. That simply is not true. Republicans had concerns. No one was coming to his defense there. I talked to a senior White House official who acknowledged this a short time ago and said we did him no favors, him meaning Dr. Jackson here. So, they didn't vet him. His pick a month ago was a surprise to everyone, Dr. Jackson included. He probably should have said, sir, no, thank you. He didn't of course. And now we have this.
BLITZER: Other question is was he really qualified to run the Department of Veterans Affairs with more than 300,000 employees.
PETTYPIECE: -- to Michael Cohen point. I do think there is an element of truth to this fact that he only did tiny, tiny bit of the president's legal work because the president has such a large amount of legal work and Michael Cohen from my indications was more of a fixer, not the lawyer.
Mark Kasowitz was the lawyer. Jason Greenblatt at the Trump org was the lawyer. And these are the guys who were more in the thick and the details of every business dealings, while Michael Cohen, while he played a very significant role, was not necessarily the guy fighting all of this, you know extensive litigation that the president had in court.
(CROSSTALK)
ZELENY: -- Michael Cohen was involved in a lot of the controversial matters. You're right, not the business dealings at all.
COATES: So, why that's so important, though, is Michael Cohen has been professing that he has this attorney-client privilege relationship. The president pointed out that attorney-client privilege is dead based on the raid of what he's calling his personal attorney. Well, if he wasn't in fact your personal attorney, and said somebody who's worked for you, who happened to have a lot degree, you don't qualify for the same privilege. The hyperbole you're speaking of really comes from the president himself.
BLITZER: Norman, what does it mean that the -- federal judge in New York today announced that there would be a so-called special master that would review all the documents, decide what was pertinent, what isn't pertinent?
[13:10:09] EISEN: Wolf, it is bad news for Michael Cohen and it is bad news for the president. Their first preference would have been to get the documents back and review it themselves. They don't want an independent person going through their attorney-client communications. Very distinguished federal judge practiced for a time at the law firm where I used to practice. She'll do a good job, and it will be fast, Wolf. That's the other thing.
The -- if Mr. Cohen took his documents back, consulted with the president reviewing them, slow process. He wants to slow down his moving criminal train. Now with a special master involved, it will have some pace. The last thing I'll say is these two issues, Dr. Jackson, Michael Cohen, they're related. It's the president's improvisational style. He hurt Dr. Jackson by lobbing him out before there was a vet. And every time he opens his mouth about Michael Cohen, he creates more problems for Mr. Cohen. It must have chilled Michael Cohen to hear, oh, those are his business dealings. I don't know anything about that. And he creates problems for himself --
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Everybody hold their thoughts for a moment. There is a lot more breaking news we're following, including, as you just saw, Michael Cohen. He's back in court right now. That's some live pictures from the federal courthouse in New York as this so-called special master has been named to review documents seized in the FBI raids. On Michael Cohen's home, office, his legal -- his hotel room, his safe deposit box, his electronic equipment, cell phones, computers, a whole bunch of stuff.
Plus, a cabinet in chaos as the VA secretary nominee battles it out, the embattled EPA Chief Scott Pruitt. You see him there. Now he's being grilled up on Capitol Hill. He directly contradicts what he said just a few weeks ago.
And credit President Trump for bringing Kim Jong-un to the negotiating table. That's the message we're hearing today from South Korea. We're going live to Seoul, only hours away from historic between the South Korean President Moon and Kim Jong-un in a demilitarized zone.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:16:24] BLITZER: Scott Pruitt, the president's controversial EPA chief, facing questions right now at the House hearing. It's the first of two hearings for Pruitt. Today he's going to be a pretty busy guy. And there was plenty of ground to cover, his expensive security demands, for example, the pay of staffers who questioned Pruitt's management, his $43,000 soundproof booth, an expenditure that reminds HUD secretary Ben Carson's $31,000 dining room table. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT PRUITT, EPA ADMINISTRATOR: I did have a phone call come in, of a sensitive nature, and I did not have access to secure communications. I gave direction to my staff to address that. And out of that came a $43,000 expenditure that I did not approve. That is something that --
REP. TONY CARDENAS (D), CALIFORNIA: So you're not taking responsibility for the $43,000 that was spent in your office? You're saying that staff did it without your knowledge?
PRUITT: Correct. Career individuals at the agency took that process through and signed off on it all the way through.
CARDENAS: So you were not involved in that?
PRUITT: I was not involved in the approval of the $43,000 and if I had known about it, Congressman, I would have refused it.
REP. DIANA DEGETTE (D), COLORADO: Would you agree that public officials should be held to the highest standards of ethical conduct? PRUITT: I believe that, yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: All right. Let's get back to our panel. Shannon, how do you think he's doing?
PETTYPIECE: Well, if the president is watching, he probably won't think he's doing very well, because he seems to have stepped on this issue of whether or not he knew about these raises where he ended up saying that they had been requested. The indications that we've been getting from our reporting is that Pruitt's time is short and that it's really just a matter of timing before when he's removed from this position. But the White House is not defending him. He has some defenders on Capitol Hill but very few surrogates defending him out there, and if you look at the statements that have been coming out from the press office and other administration officials, they are very tepid, they are -- we are looking into this, we are investigating, he will have to answer a lot of serious questions. So I think it doesn't really matter how much he does today, I think the writing is on the wall for him.
BLITZER: In an earlier interview, Jeff, with Fox News he was asked about some of the significant, some pretty large pay raises for some of his staffers. He said he didn't really know anything about it. But listen to what he said today when he was pressed on this issue.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. PAUL TONKO (D), NEW YORK: Internal e-mails. Sara Greenwald, one of the aides who received a substantial raise, said that you were aware of and supported the raises. Was that true?
PRUITT: I think with respect to the raises -
TONKO: Was that true? -
PRUITT: Congressman -
TONKO: I have five minutes, so I have to move along.
PRUITT: I was not aware of the amount - nor was I -
TONKO: Not the amount. Were you aware of the raises?
PRUITT: I was not aware of the amount, nor was I aware of the bypassing or the PPO process not being respected.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Why did you go around the White House and give pay raises to two staffers --
PRUITT: I did not. My staff did it. And I found out about the issue - changed it.
ED HENRY, FOX NEWS: Did somebody been fired for that?
PRUITT: That should not have been done.
HENRY: So who did it?
PRUITT: It maybe -- there will be some accountability --
HENRY: A career person or a political person?
PRUITT: I don't know.
HENRY: You don't know who did it?
PRUITT: I found out about this yesterday and I corrected the action.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: So, what do you think?
ZELENY: To be charitable there, you know, he's not fully aware of what's going on. The reality is, though, that Fox News interview with Ed Henry was intended to clear things up. Obviously that didn't happen. What I was struck by was the Republicans on that committee, of course, Democrats are going to have concerns. But the Republicans, including the chairman, he said these issues are too persistent to ignore. We are looking for more clarity.
If they're looking for more clarity, I didn't hear that this morning. He held his own in some respects but not more clarity. Shannon is right. Our reporting is indicating the same thing. He's a short timer in every respect.
[13:20:00] One sector that is urging the president to hold onto him, that's the oil and gas industry. Some of the president's top supporters and donors have urged him to stick with him. They know Scott Pruitt, but it's becoming untenable. The president is annoyed by these headlines, to say the least.
BLITZER: In that, earlier in the morning, Fox News interview -- this, Norm, he really went after his own Justice Department. Let me play the clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP (via telephone): They have this witch hunt going on with people in the Justice Department that shouldn't be there. They have a witch hunt against the president of the United States going on.
I'm very disappointed in my Justice Department. But because of the fact that it's going on, and I think you'll understand this, I have decided that I won't be involved. I may change my mind at some point, because what's going on is a disgrace. It's an absolute disgrace.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: So, Norm, the attorney general of the United States is a Republican, the deputy attorney general of the United States is a Republican. The FBI director is a Republican. Robert Mueller, the special counsel, is a Republican.
Hold on for a moment. Michael Avenatti, I think we have that. He's just emerged from the courtroom. He's the lawyer for Stormy Daniels. I want to just listen to hear what he's saying.
MICHAEL AVENATTI, STORMY DANIELS' LAWYER: That's what I think. I thought it was exceptional for our case. And I thought it was disastrous for him.
I think there is no question it implicates him, and I don't believe there is anyway you can reconcile what the president said on "Fox & Friends," with the statements on Air Force One, with the prior statements of Michael Cohen, those are all irreconcilable and that's a significant serious problem for Michael Cohen and the president.
QUESTION: Michael, when the president says that Michael Cohen did a tiny percentage of this legal work for him, what significance does that have (INAUDIBLE)?
AVENATTI: Well, I think it can have a - significant issue as it relates to privilege.
QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE)
BLITZER: Well, it looks like Michael Cohen was walking out the same time that Michael Avenatti was speaking. A lot of the reporters rushed over to try to get some reaction from Michael Cohen. That's why we haven't heard a question for Michael Avenatti, but now there's finally another question.
AVENATTI: We want to make sure that nothing happens to the documents and the information relating to the $130,000 payment, the agreement that was reached, and what we believe to be the cover-up. Anything else?
QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE)
AVENATTI: No, I don't think they challenged it. I think they just wanted an opportunity to review the motion, and hopefully we'll be able to work it out so that there are no issues. I'm confident in our ability to do so.
QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE)
AVENATTI: Say that again.
QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE)
AVENATTI: I think ultimately it will be shown that there is a number of things that are nefarious in the communications between Michael Cohen and others relating to the agreement and the $130,000 payment.
I'm sorry?
QUESTION: Can you elaborate?
AVENATTI: Not at this time.
QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE)
AVENATTI: Is Miss Daniels coming back to court? I'm highly confident she'll be returning to court at an appropriate time. I appreciate it. Thank you.
BLITZER: All right. So there you have it. I'll get to the Justice Department in a moment, but let me get your thought, first of all. We just heard from Stormy Daniels' attorney.
EISEN: Well, it's very similar to the announcements of the panel, Wolf. The president did damage to Michael Cohen and to himself with his statements today, and the bigger damage is that they're not consistent. First he says on Air Force One, he walks away from it. Then today he admits that Cohen was representing him in the Stormy Daniels matter. And you have a president who has such problems with veracity according to the "Washington Post," 2,000 lies in his first year in office. The problem is, that the whole foundation of the president's ability to deal with the rule of law, is that these people and you enumerated them, Wolf. Republican after Republican but they are proving that first loyalty is still the rule of law. The president can't deal with it if he can't tell the truth. And that's why there is this sense of the walls closing in. So he should be quiet.
BLITZER: And we just saw very briefly there.
PETTYPIECE: I know he's gotten that legal advice from many people and he's not listening.
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Do you know who is being very quiet right now, Laura? That would be Michael Cohen, which is not consistent with the Michael Cohen that all of us have known over the years. We've covered him over the years. He's being told by his lawyers, you know what, you got to shut up. You can't say anything.
[13:25:00] He's walking out of that federal court, courthouse in New York. And he doesn't answer the reporters' questions. Michael Avenatti, the lawyer for Stormy Daniels, he's anxious to go to the microphone.
COATES: Well, sound advice to keep your mouth shut. You know this about a nondisclosure agreement about everyone trying to be quiet. Remember, it's very tantalizing to look at Michael Avenatti and Michael Cohen and think that it's all one particular issue. The Michael Cohen S,T and Y in Manhattan case is about a criminal probe about what happened in the raid. It may include some to Stormy Daniels' case. But that started months before, any revelation about it, investigation about that.
Michael Avenatti scenario is separate and that it's a civil case in California that deals primarily with whether the underlying NDA between the Essential Consultants aka David Dennison - the president of the United States and Michael Cohen is legal. The reason why it's important that he spoke just now, and what you're talking about, Norm, is so key here, is the idea that the president's statements have undermined the ability to say it was a legal and valid NDA. It almost speaks nothing to the issue of whether or not there will be an indictment in New York. You got to keep the two cases separate. It's advantageous for Avenatti to speak about them in a conflated way but they are not.
BLITZER: Very quickly, you know, Jeff, before I let you go. The president in that interview on Fox News this morning referring to his Justice Department which he clearly doesn't like, he said I may change my mind at some point and get involved in the Justice Department because what's going on is a disgrace, it's an absolute disgrace. So he's hinting right now, Sessions and Rosenstein and the others, maybe they'll still have jobs, but at some point he could change his mind.
ZELENY: It's pretty extraordinary and the catalogue of extraordinary events. That would certainly put this on there. The president essentially telegraphing what his intention is for the Justice Department, suggesting all of them are short timers but acknowledging that he can't do anything he's being advised to do anything about it. But it seems to me the attorney general, there is no one the president wants to fire more in his cabinet because of his actions over a year ago, than Jeff Sessions.
(CROSSTALK)
PETTYPIECE: The president - that he wants to fire his attorney general - the president wants to fire the attorney general but it's so blocked in by members of Congress, that he can't do it. That's extraordinary too.
BLITZER: He'd fire Mueller. He'd fire Rosenstein. He'd fire Sessions. There's a whole bunch of -
ZELENY: It's easier to fire than to hire as Ronny Jackson situation --
EISEN: By the law, it's the firing of Comey that got him in the obstruction box.
COATES: Just so we're clear, the president has not yet become involved. This is the news, he's not yet involved.
BLITZER: It's a very busy news day here in Washington. Coming up, the breaking news, Mike Pompeo, he has just been confirmed as the next U.S. Secretary of State. My next guest, Ronan Farrow, just interviewed every living former U.S. Secretary of State. I'll get his thoughts on Pompeo, as the long term decline of the U.S. State Department of diplomacy, much more right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
