Return to Transcripts main page

Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield

Mom`s Body Found Frozen In Ice Block; Gruesome Details, Jealous Wife Murders Husband`s Mistress. Aired 6-8p ET

Aired May 01, 2018 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HOST, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE: Good evening, everyone, I`m Ashleigh Banfield. Welcome to "Crime and Justice." A missing mother

of three has finally been found, only police found her encased in a 500- pound block of ice. Justin Freiman is covering this story. What happened to this woman? And how did she end up in the ice?

JUSTIN FREIMAN, SR. PRODUCER, HLN CNN: Well, that is what people are trying to find out. She is encased in ice and there`s probably some

evidence that has been trapped in there that they will be able to find. But the other evidence that is really key is blood stains, found in the

apartment that she shared with her boyfriend.

BANFIELD: Wow. It`s like a forensic bonanza. Check in with you on that in a moment.

Also, we have more on that fugitive grandma, accused of killing her husband in Minnesota, before killing a look-alike woman in Florida to steal her

identity. Michael Christian is covering this story. How are the police saying this poor woman was killed, and what are these so-called sick

details we`re hearing about the fugitive granny`s behavior after the murder?

MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, SENIOR FIELD PRODUCER, HLN: Ashleigh, this victim was shot and the defendant Louis, re-stayed overnight in her condo with the

dead body. She shoved a towel under the door to keep the odor from escaping and even that is not the worst of it. We got a lot to tell you.

BANFIELD: A lot of charges to deal with that case. We`ll find out why it`s second-degree as well. Thank you, Michael.

And then a dark story getting even darker tonight. Two women found dead in a Pennsylvania home. One of them, a dangerous stalker, the other one,

dating that killer`s husband. Back to Justin Freiman, now this sounds like a twisted love triangle. What happened in that house?

FREIMAN: That is right. Police say that this killer was lying in wait, actually in the house when the mistress comes home and that is when the

bullets are fired. We end up with both of them dead. But just what happened, the details will shock you.

BANFIELD: All right. Check in with you in a minute on that one. Justin, thank you. You know, they say lightning never strikes the same place

twice, but an armed robbery suspect in California may just have done that. Even the same clerk was hit twice. We`re going to show you the video that

police are now sharing, hoping you can help hunt him down.

Then later, a former college football player heads to trial accused of shooting dead a high school cheerleader, and get this, through her bedroom

wall. Was this a crime of passion, or did he spend weeks plotting a dark and disturbing murder, or is there something else entirely?

First though, let me get you to this morbid discovery in Minnesota. In a pond, the body of 41-year-old Elizabeth Perrault, who had not been seen for

six months, but the way she was seen in the pond is nothing short of chilling, like a scene from a horror movie.

Elizabeth was found frozen into a 500-pound block of ice. And it`s not exactly the alcohol treatment center that her boyfriend had insisted she

checked into. He told police two women just showed up one day and whisked her away, all the way back in November. And when police went to check out

that apartment where Elizabeth had just stopped paying the rent, that story got a little harder to believe, because officers found out, one thing in

that apartment. It was empty except for one thing.

By the way, that apartment her neighbors had seen her boyfriend moving things out of, had a giant blood stain on the carpet. And then there were

the charges that he put on her card, that certainly not helping his case either. But so far no one has been arrested for Elizabeth`s murder. That

500-pound block of ice is out of the water and melting slowly, to preserve the evidence, and Elizabeth`s body.

To say they`re calling her frigid death highly suspicious is an understatement. We are going to get to the bottom of that. I want to

bring in my panel, Jon Justice, co-host of Justice and Drew on KTLK/AM, 11:30 also certified death investigator and professor of forensics at

Jacksonville State University, Joseph Scott Morgan is with me. And Defense Attorney, Rachel Kugel, is here as well. Jon Justice, let me go to you

first. Where are they in these investigation? Is that block of ice melted yet?

JON JUSTICE, HOST JUSTICE AND DREW KTLK: Not as of yet. They are letting it melt slowly, because they want to make sure that the body is preserved

as best as possible, given the very morbid and difficult conditions that it was found in.

BANFIELD: So, tell me the story. Who found this body in a frozen pond in a block of ice and how was it found?

JUSTICE: Well, my understanding was, it was a passerby. We`ve had an unseasonably -- we`ve had an unseasonably long winter here with a lot of

really cold temps for a long, long time. The snow just melted about four days ago, finally. And I believe a passerby came across the body that was

in this pond, if you will, about five miles north of where her home was, and it probably happened right when things were starting to defrost in the

area.

[18:05:00] BANFIELD: It`s a horrible thought, but at the same time, it`s kind of a boon for the investigators, because I would assume that if miss

Perrault`s body has been frozen in that block of ice since perhaps November, which was the last time anyone saw her and the last rent payment

she made, that could hold a lot of clues still. The forensics may still be there. She may not have decomposed. Are they saying anything about this?

JUSTICE: No. My understanding is, they say the body is not in great condition. There is a certain level of decomposition, more indicative that

perhaps -- and this is pure speculation on my part -- she is been there for quite a long period of time. Maybe closer to when she originally went

missing, you know, back in February.

So again, they`re taking this very slowly and given the fact that they found this blood stain in the apartment, which I believe they found using a

spray. So it allegedly may have been cleaned up, maybe it wasn`t visible to the eye until they put the spray down, may be a big indication as to

where they`re heading in this investigation.

BANFIELD: Yes. That is usually luminal, if we all watch our forensic files correctly, and that is always more curious situation when someone`s

tried to remove a blood stain.

So, listen, Jon, I have a holdout questions about this boyfriend, who was seen moving all these things out. But I want to pause there for only a

minute, because Joseph Scott Morgan, I think you can weigh in on the fact that this body has been encased in the block of ice, 500-pound block of

ice. And you heard John say missing since February. That is when the report was made.

But the last time she was seen was with the boyfriend and that was in November. November 1st was the last rent payment, so, she could have been

missing since then. Tell me a little bit about what the forensics teamed would be doing at this point with the evidence they now have?

JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, PROFESSOR OF FORENSIC, JACKSONVILLE STATE UNIVERSITY: Well, thanks for having me, Ashleigh. The idea is that, they`re taking

their time thawing this block of ice, because every -- literally every drop of water that comes off that big drop has the potential to contain some

type of trace evidence. It would not surprise me at all that they have a catch basin that they`re collecting this water in as it slowly drips away,

being melted away.

Now, what is interesting, you had mentioned -- that the body may be already in a state of decomposition. This is actually kind of interesting as well.

Because we apply a timeline to the level of decomposition relative to the environment in which the body is found. At that moment in time, when she

did go into this frozen condition, decomposition pause. At that moment time and that is a marker in time that we can go back and kind of trace

this timeline that has been created.

You had mentioned, she had last been seen in November, and not reported until February. Of course they found her when the spring thaw came. So

there`s any number -- what I`m going to be really interested in, Ashleigh, is to find out exactly what type of injuries she has sustained. We`ve got

a large amount of blood that apparently has been cleaned up at the scene, or maybe an attempt was made.

BANFIELD: Yes. Actually that is -- now that you mention that, how can you tell, if injuries she sustained might have been part of the killing, or

might have come from the block of ice? I mean, who knows if she was alive or dead when she was somehow put into the water, fell into the water,

thrown into the water. Do you know what I mean? If she was unconscious and she went into the water and then ice blocks started to work around her,

could that not compromise the forensics as well?

MORGAN: Yes, I think probably one of the first things that the medical examiner is going to do, they are going to want to check her lungs as well,

as her inner ear to see if potentially this was a drowning of some kind. We`re dealing with water here. Or that leads us -- that leads us to the

point where if it`s not a case of drowning, she was dead prior to going in there and the water is merely being used as a way to conceal the body as

opposed to a burial.

BANFIELD: Yes.

MORGAN: And that is quite fascinating as well.

BANFIELD: You heard Jon say that they`re thawing now and I don`t know how long the thawing has been gone -- I hate to speak in these morbid terms,

but it is critical --

MORGAN: No, it can take some time.

BANFIELD: You know, and here`s the question, Joe. If there`s a thaw going on, is that also washing away a lot of the forensic evidence?

MORGAN: Well, I think that it`s important to understand that they`re taking care with this. I`ve worked a couple of these cases over my career.

And it does take some time. Just the dynamics of it, because this is --

BANFIELD: Hey, I mean, before she was found. Like, look, there might had been some thawing going on before that passerby. It might have been a

fisherman in a shallow pond, before the discovery, there may have been some melt and there may had been some evidence that was compromised or lost.

MORGAN: Yes. You`re absolutely right. In the environment in which she is found, this could have already escaped away.

[18:10:04] This is going to be particulate evidence. However, they`re talking about a 500-pound of block of ice. This young lady, when she was

last seen, I`ve heard one report that she weighed somewhere in the neighborhood of approximately 85 pounds. So the large, the totality of

this thing is going to be ice and frozen water, as opposed to her body mass. I would imagine a good deal of evidence is still going to be trapped

therein.

BANFIELD: God, and she was only 85 pounds, she would have been so tiny and just -- so vulnerable, it would seem. Jon, let me come back to you with

some of the details. And Rachel, I`m getting to you about the boyfriend thing. So, Jon fills in the details of the story of the boyfriend, I want

you to weigh in on why we`re not naming the boyfriend, because he hasn`t been charged. So, Jon, what`s the story of the boyfriend?

JUSTICE: Well, the boyfriend said that they had gotten a new home and he was seen moving stuff out of the apartment and his story keeps changing.

He also apparently said, he used her EBT card once, but he used it multiple times.

BANFIELD: Is that the food stamps? Is that a food stamp card, EBT card?

JUSTICE: Yes, an EBT card.

BANFIELD: And you are saying that he admitted to using it once, but gosh, darn it, you can track those things and they found it was used a couple of

times.

JUSTICE: Multiple times, and to what the investigators were saying, with her being 85 pounds, there were witnesses -- in some other reporting

saying, that she didn`t look well and on her Facebook page last June, it was indicated that she was receiving chemotherapy. So, there are passage

to the story about her well-being, prior to her going missing. Obviously the boyfriend is incredibly a suspect in this, but there`s some other

factors here that may have -- maybe be involved in just how her overall health was doing prior to her disappearing.

BANFIELD: So there`s also word that this boyfriend -- again, we`re not naming him, because he is not been charged with anything at this point.

And I say it at this point, because it sounds to me, Rachel and you`re coming up soon, that there`s a lot of interesting information that might

give him probable cause, but really quickly Jon, he was talking on Facebook about their relationship. What was the story there?

JUSTICE: Right. Well, basically he was chatting with people on Facebook about how they had broken up. So, he was having discussions and being very

open about them breaking up. And so, you know, read into that as you will, but he was, you know, obviously saying they were no longer together and

maybe that led him to removing stuff from the apartment after, you know, she had gone missing. Obviously it`s pure speculation at this point, but -

-

BANFIELD: Well, that doesn`t make any sense yet. He is telling people she is fine, she went to rehab, and there`s this odd stain on the floor,

Rachel.

JUSTICE: Right.

BANFIELD: And then there`s this unusual behavior of a boyfriend who`s telling police one thing, but they`re discovering electronically that he

might have used the card more times than he admitted to. How does that not amount to a probable cause? And I will put you one more, why can`t you

arrest him for the food stamp fraud and keep him?

RACHEL KUGEL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: So you can, but I think here`s why they`re not at this point, because I think, the theft on the EBT card is relatively

minor in the grand scheme of crimes you can charges somewhat. And certainly, if we`re starting to talked about, you know, levels of a

homicide. I think the reason they`re not charging him, is once you charge someone with a crime, all kinds of rights attach.

And it might stop someone from talking. It might stop someone from posting things on Facebook. It might make someone get an attorney. And I think

that, you know, if I had to make a guess here, I`d say the reason they`re not charging him with the more minor offense, is because they`re waiting to

see if there`s something more sinister at hand.

BANFIELD: It`s a bizarre story, and a remarkable story. And you so rarely hear about a body being found in that condition. I get these sort of

horror movie images, you know, of a woman frozen in ice. And God bless the person who found her, and I hope that person is getting help, because that

is not a scene the she would easily forget or easily get over. Jon Justice, thank you. Joseph Scott Morgan, I am going to ask you to stick

around, Rachel, you can`t go anywhere either.

A scorned woman can be a dangerous woman. And now Pennsylvania police are piecing together what drove a middle-aged wife to stalk and kill her

husband`s mistress. But when you find out how it was done, and how it might have been prevented, you will not believe this story.

[18:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: By all accounts, Meredith Chapman was a talented, successful person. She`d run for a state senate seat. She worked at the University

of Delaware, and she had just taken a job at Villanova. But Meredith Chapman was dating a married man. And that married man`s wife was not the

least bit happy about it. In fact, the last thing Meredith likely saw before she took a bullet to the head was that wife, lying in wait inside

Meredith`s new apartment, right before Meredith was scheduled to go on a dinner date with that wife`s cheating husband.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUPERINTENDENT WILLIAM COLARULO, RADNOR POLICE DEPARTMENT: She was lying in wait, and she shot her as soon as she walked in. Then she shot herself.

This was a calculated, planned attack. There were e-mails and text messages indicating what she planned to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

According to local reports, Jennair Gerardot, rented a car for her revenge road trip, booking it a week in advance and driving 30 miles to the home of

the mistress. But police reportedly found a wig and some extra clothes in that rental car. And that got them wondering, was this a murder/suicide?

Was that always part of the plan? Or did Jennair plan to make it out alive?

I want to bring in my panel, Solomon Jones, from Praise 107.9 FM, also Defense Attorney, Rachel Kugel, is still with me. Solomon, first to you.

That is a bizarre story. A woman who seemingly was happy, but for a few clues about a troubled marriage, who ends up going through all of this.

Can you fill in any of these gaps?

SOLOMON JONES, MORNING HOST, PRAISE 107.9 FM: Yes, well, apparently, the two of them, the husband and Miss Chapman had worked together at the

University of Delaware. She had worked at the University of Delaware, she worked at WHYY, where I do some work in Philadelphia. This was an

accomplished young woman who was moving up the ladder quickly. And her own marriage was on the rocks. In fact, the divorce was already in the process

when she was killed. And so you have two people who are in these troubled marriages, who work together at the University of Delaware, who then begin

to engage in this affair. And then once the wife found out, the wife who was even trying to save her own marriage, things just spiraled out of

control from there.

BANFIELD: So, you know, when this sort of thing happens, the first person that police would look to would be maybe the guy who discovers the bodies.

And I say "bodies," because they were both right there in this mistress`s home. The ambush worked. The mistress was killed instantly, I think. And

then for some weird reason, the wife, Jennair, turned the gun on herself and I believe shot herself in the head. Did they think this might have

been staged and that the husband was part of this?

JONES: No, I think they immediately thought that this was something that the wife had done, probably because of the way that the bodies were

arranged. Probably because of what they found with those wounds from the 357 magnum that she used. They questioned the husband immediately, but it

was determined fairly quickly that this thing -- it was a murder/suicide.

And again, the wife was trying to save her marriage right up until the time that she found out that he was engaged in this affair. And then of course

a series of e-mails and text messages show that she began to plot her revenge.

BANFIELD: Yes, there`s some weird stuff. I mean, honestly, you know how so many marriages seem on the outside to be OK, only to find out that

they`re not OK. I was reading through some of Jennair`s postings, and there`s this website called Next Door, it`s usually like a community

billboard. But Jennair`s posting on Next Door, and it sounded like she was desperate for help, but didn`t want anyone to know it was her, because she

wrote, I just transferred to Delaware. Not true. For my husband`s new job, and he is telling me, he wants a divorce. I don`t know anyone and I`m

completely clueless to the area. Can someone please recommend a reputable and successful and driven divorce attorney? Is that the only or some of

the first indications that there was sort of trouble on the horizon in this marriage.

JONES: Well, there were more messages on Next Door, first she talked about the divorce attorney, and then she is talking about marriage counselling

and saying, she doesn`t care what kind of marriage counselling it is, whether it`s religiously based, whether it is a marriage boot camp,

whatever it is. And that is just a weird thing to post on a community billboard and to let everyone know about, like you`re looking for this kind

of help in your marriage.

BANFIELD: Yes.

JONES: And so there were a series of messages that she posted that just would seem to anyone looking from the outside to be just completely just

strange.

BANFIELD: Which might be exactly why she didn`t want to it sound like it was someone who lived in the neighborhood. I just moved here, I don`t know

this place too well, I need a divorce attorney. I just found out, that you were just talking about, according to philly.com, she wrote, on Next Door,

please recommend an excellent, in all caps, marriage counsellor. This is after the divorce attorney posting. Marriage counsellor for a couple on

the brink of divorce. We will need someone who is very educated and experienced in dealing with couple`s issues, including infidelity,

depression, traumatic experiences, child/parent dynamics, being accountable for actions, et cetera. Do we know anything about kids in this family?

JONES: Not that I know of. You know, there might be kids, but everything that I`ve read mentioned no children.

[18:25:00] And so I wonder if she is putting in that to kind of throw people off the set that it`s her that is actually, you know, looking for

this help.

BANFIELD: Yes. I think I read somewhere that they had a dog. They lived their dog, and I don`t know that means they only had a dog or that they`re

empty nesters and they have a dog. I am not sure what it is, and I think it is sort of early in the offing. So, that brings me to you, Rachel,

typically we can`t talk so definitively about a fresh killing, because there are charges, you`re innocent until proven guilty. You can`t say she

did it. You can say, police say, she did it. In this case, she did.

KUGEL: Yes.

BANFIELD: And you can say she did it. So is there an investigation? Do the police need to spend money in resources to find out why she did it?

How she did it, the rental car, the lying in and wait.

KUGEL: Yes, I mean, I think that anytime there`s any kind of homicide, whether the perpetrator is dead or not, they have to go through a series of

process of investigation. The medical examiner`s report, there is also making sure that no one else was involved, who rented the car, who knew

about it, what are the motives, all these things are important and I think there is still and will be an investigation.

BANFIELD: And let us not forget, this cheating husband is still around.

KUGEL: Yes.

BANFIELD: And clearly he is suffering, the worst suffering you could possibly ask someone to undertake, the death of two people that he probably

loved. And so there is that. I want to just play if I can before we go to break, what the police said about the husband, because he was the one who

was waiting for his mistress to show up for dinner, and she didn`t show up for dinner, so, of course, where would he go? He`d go to his mistress`s

home and walk in on that. Have a listen to what the police said about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLARULO: We believe the husband was in the area under the belief that he was meeting the other woman for dinner, and when she didn`t show up, that

is when he got concerned and showed up at the house.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: That is got to stay with you forever. I want the both of you to stick around if you can, because police say this murder/suicide never had

to happen. And that if a witness who saw something had said something, Meredith Chapman might still be alive today, and so might Jennair Gerardot.

We are going to tell you who saw what and how it didn`t get transmitted, next.

[18:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CRIME AND JUSTICE SHOW HOST, HLN: We`re still talking about the dramatic double killing that rocked the town of Radnor,

Pennsylvania. Police say Jennair Gerardot broke into the home of the woman her husband was seeing on the side, waited for her to come home, ambushed

her, and shot her right in the head.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MELISSA DEJOSEPH, NEIGHBOR: As soon as she went in, probably less than five minutes after she went in, I heard a noise that at the time I was

like, was that a gunshot?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: But police say it wasn`t the only gunshot. They say Jennair then shot herself in the head next. So when her husband arrived at the scene,

wondering why his mistress hadn`t shown up for their dinner date, he would find both of them dead on the floor.

And what`s more, police are saying none of this had to happen, because someone reportedly saw Jennair at the scene of the crime, watching the

house through a set of binoculars while standing on a neighbor`s driveway. Only that witness did not tell the police what they saw until it was too

late.

My panel is still with me, Solomon Jones and Rachel Kugel. Sixteen hours too late. The witness e-mailed the tip in, Solomon.

SOLOMON JONES, MORNING HOST, PRAISE 107.9 FM: Yeah, that`s what William Colarulo from that police department says, that, you know, later on, the

person said, you know, I saw this person out in the yard and they had a pair of binoculars and they were looking at this woman`s house, and I

didn`t think anything of it. I thought she had lost a pet or something. And so I didn`t, you know, make that call. But she`s driving that same Cadillac

that she had rented, she`s the same woman.

And unfortunately, this person didn`t think to call 911, much to the chagrin and regret of the police.

BANFIELD: Oh, I`ll say -- here are the police talking a little bit about that. Chris Flanagan with the Radnor Township Police, describing, you know,

what it was they were told, unfortunately, 16 hours too late. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS FLANAGAN, RADNOR TOWNSHIP POLICE DEPARTMENT: We received specific information that somebody had that lady standing in the driveway with

binoculars, probably sizing up the house or possibly observing the pattern of the female victim. Clearly that could have been a situation where maybe

we could have easily avoided this by having an intervention.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[18:34:53] BANFIELD: An intervention. I mean, Solomon, when you hear about some of the details that, you know, not only the binoculars, but also

ammunition, gloves, earplugs, all found in Jennair`s car, and then the change of clothes, the disguise, is it sort of commonly thought that they

figured Jennair did not plan to kill herself and then saw what she did and ended it sort of as a last-minute decision?

JONES: Yeah. I think that she had it planned out. She had obviously cased the house. She had sent these text messages, emails. She had planned what

she was going to do. I think then at the last minute, she decided that she would just going to end it all.

I think, you know, in this neighborhood of Radnor, you have to understand, this is on the main line in Philadelphia. This is outside of the city, in a

very, very rich neighborhood, in a place where these things don`t happen with much frequency.

And so I think the neighbors, not to defend them, but I think they probably just could not imagine that this would happen in this kind of neighborhood

just, you know, a short distance from Villanova University.

And so I think that is part of what went into them not calling the police when they saw this person, not calling the police immediately after the

gunshots. I just think they could not imagine that this would happen in such a wealthy neighborhood.

BANFIELD: Yeah. Well, Villanova was where Meredith had just taken a job. She had just moved to this neighborhood. She was super excited about it,

posting all about how excited she was. She left the University of Delaware where she was working and strangely enough, that`s where she was the boss

of the man she was dating, the man who was cheating on his wife. So it was just fascinating.

You know, the Instagram (INAUDIBLE) Rachel -- again, we`re not naming him because he`s a victim. You know, he`s a victim. Now his wife is dead, his

girlfriend is dead, but there`s really no love lost for this guy on social media.

RACHEL KUGEL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. I mean, he`s really -- on social media, it`s interesting to me that people are really going after him. And

I`m sure, you know, listen, we can all speculate, but probably that`s part of what he`s dealing with. The responsibility, not legally, of course for

this, but maybe morally, whatever you have to sort of deal with in that, certainly a lot for him to unpack.

BANFIELD: But for his behavior, those two women would probably be alive. I mean, that`s the reality.

KUGEL: And to look at it online, to look at the social media posts, this appears to have been a husband and wife that were blissfully happy,

pictures with their beautiful perfect dog.

BANFIELD: Stepford (ph).

KUGEL: Yeah, well, I mean --

BANFIELD: (INAUDIBLE).

KUGEL: You never know what`s really going on.

BANFIELD: Yeah, you never know. I do want to know this. If I am Meredith Chapman`s family, I want justice, right? But the person I want justice from

is dead. Can I sue her estate for wrongful death?

KUGEL: So there actually is a mechanism by which you can sue someone who is no longer with us. The sort of interesting thing here that might play

out is, her estate probably is also essentially this husband`s -- her lover`s estate, in essence. If you sue her and her estate, you are sort of

hurting really the person who was her lover.

BANFIELD: Well, they may have no love for him. They may feel like but for him, our Meredith would be alive. So technically, he could only just be

seeing the start of his worries.

KUGEL: I think so. This is a long road of figuring out what exactly happened, what went wrong. Obviously, this is someone he had a relationship

with, you had a --

BANFIELD: Hold on a second. If you want to sue Jennair, the killer, but she`s married, how do you know what`s hers and what`s his? And how do you

sue for just hers? Because they can`t sue for what`s his. How do you distinguish?

KUGEL: Well, because there`s nothing as really hers in that way anymore, right, because if you`re a husband and wife and you`re still married and

they were still married, I mean, if you have an insurance, her life insurance policy, for example, most of that just sort of automatically to

your husband.

BANFIELD: Can they sue for all of it?

KUGEL: Well, I mean, listen, she was a young woman with a bright future, there`s arguably substantial damages.

BANFIELD: Wow.

KUGEL: But again, who does it really impact?

BANFIELD: Tragic and weird and also sort of mystifying all at the same time. Rachel, I`ll ask you to stay. Solomon Jones, thank you, sir, always

nice to have you on the program.

I want to take you to Los Angeles now. What a dramatic rescue. I don`t know if you saw this. But this was caught on camera after a big rig crashed in

the 405, slamming in five other cars, trapping a driver underneath that horrible fiery wreck. Look at all those good Samaritans, some of them you

saw were military personnel.

They all raced onto the scene. They literally used whatever they could get their hands on to try to put this fire out and free that trapped man. Look

closely, if you can see it, there`s dirt they`re throwing, sand, bottled water even they`re throwing on the flames. But they did get him out. They

borrowed a saw. They cut the man free.

That man apparently did suffer severe burns, but the good news is it worked. They got him out. He`s expected to survive. Listen to the din of

activity. Unbelievable. Two other people were also hurt in this. But again, unbelievable video of that, what could have been a deadly fire, but he

survived.

[18:40:04] Remarkable pictures too.

Tonight, losing streak Lois. Recognize that name? She has also been called the killer granny, allegedly. She`s now sitting behind bars in Florida

accused of murdering her look-alike. And guess what we`re now learning about her. Really weird things, like what she did right after the killing,

and what she was seen taking from the dead woman`s home as the dead woman was decomposing.

[18:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Tonight, the family of two of the golden state killer`s victims are speaking out about the arrest of Joseph James DeAngelo. Keith

Harrington and his wife Patty were killed in 1980 in Southern California. Bruce Harrington spoke exclusively to HLN about what he was thinking when

he first saw the accused killer`s photo.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRUCE HARRINGTON, BROTHER AND WIFE KILLED BY GOLDEN STATE KILLER: Honestly, on Wednesday, I didn`t want to look at many pictures, poster

pictures. I mean, he looked like a troll that had crawled out from under a bridge. Disgusting. But I wanted to block that out. That day at least.

Because I really -- I felt it very important --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: It`s not just the horror of Keith and Patty`s death that has haunted his family. The reality that their remains were considered to be

potentially important evidence. And that meant that Keith`s desire to be cremated could not be honored.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RON HARRINGTON, BROTHER AND WIFE KILLED BY GOLDEN STATE KILLER: Keith and Patty`s grave -- I went to the cemetery yesterday -- Keith and Patty are

actually buried together. They`re in the same grave together. Maybe we`ll get to this later, but Keith was a huge boater.

And there had been discussions that if anything ever happened to him we could -- perhaps he would be cremated and his ashes would be strewn in

front of Catalina Island, which is so much a part of our family. But because of the forensic issues, obviously that could not happen. The bodies

had to be kept in case they had to be exhumed further.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Joseph James DeAngelo`s next scheduled court appearance is in two weeks on May 4th, and we will cover it.

We`ve also got some brand-new details on that Minnesota grandmother. You know the woman accused of murdering two people before going on the run for

a month? They called her the killer granny in the press.

Well, it was already shocking enough, the reports that she killed her husband in their bathroom before driving down to Florida, befriending a

woman who looked just like her, only to allegedly take her life and her identity and then hit the road in her car too.

But now we`re learning that Lois Riess didn`t hit the road right away. According to a new affidavit, she allegedly shot Pamela Hutchinson in the

heart. She draped a towel over Pamela`s body. And then she stuffed another towel under the bathroom door, so that the smell of Pamela`s decomposing

body would not escape.

Investigators say she just might have pretended to be Pamela when she called the front desk at the condo association asking, you know, if she

could just extend her stay a few days, being that I`m Pamela and all, right?

When Lois finally got out of town, all that was left of Pamela was that body, because police say Lois took her cash, her credit cards, her driver`s

license, even her gold rings.

And then they say she went to this hotel and ordered up herself some room service, twice. And then just ordered up a movie as well. All on Pamela`s

dime. They say she forged Pamela`s signature when she did all this, but she`s on video.

I want to bring in Tim Harlow, reporter for the Star Tribune, and Rachel Kugel is still with me. Tim, when you and I started talking about this

story, I think we would have been astounded to hear all of these details, but they`re all coming out now, and I`m wondering if any of them surprise

you.

TIM HARLOW, REPORTER, STAR TRIBUNE (via telephone): You know, this has just been one of those cases with so many twists and turns from the

beginning. So, part of me says no, I`m not surprised. But this is just very chilling and very calculated on her part.

BANFIELD: So tell me a little bit about what we know about the murder scene, about Pamela Hutchinson, apart from the fact that she was killed in

the bathroom, and the towel was stuffed under the door. There`s more forensic evidence in that bathroom with the body, do you know?

HARLOW (via telephone): Well, you know, one of the things that was mentioned to us, there is this pillow with a gunshot through it and

residue, and I haven`t quite figured out exactly how that played into the scene, but that was very well mentioned in the affidavit. And they did

notice that, like you say, a lot of her belongings, her rings, her cash were gone and so was her vehicle.

[18:50:00] BANFIELD: So, then there`s the notion of the money because we`ve all heard over and over that she stole Lois`s identity and her credit

cards and her things, and then used the credit cards to continue on her way.

But she actually is alleged to have gone to an ATM, and I think it might be three times. And that she went as far as actually going to a teller to

withdraw wish. You have a limit on the ATM but you don`t have limit when you go at the teller. How much do they think she took from the teller?

HARLOW (via telephone): We`ve got that at a couple thousand. And then there were three ATM withdrawals of up to 500. So it was a nice chunk of

change.

BANFIELD: There`s also this really sick detail as we look at how she was being processed in Lee County where, by the way, she`s only facing second-

degree murder.

And if you think about that little detail of the pillow with the gunshot residue, it`s a little weird, because that sure sounds like it`s

premeditated if you got to put a pillow over someone to maybe muffle the sound of the gunshot or stop the blood spatter.

But let`s get to that in a moment. She`s seen 11 times on video going back and forth from Pamela Hutchinson`s condo, carrying things. Do you know what

she was carrying?

HARLOW (via telephone): You know, we still don`t know, and that is one of the burning questions I think we have. What was in those garbage bags, and

specifically, what`s in that tote bag? Because that`s mentioned a couple times --

BANFIELD: She`s carrying it in this video. Yes. I kept saying it looks like one of those carpet bags, the white thing. I couldn`t tell at first if

it was a shopping bag, like a plastic shopping bag with the shape that you can really clearly make out on the big screen TV that that`s one of those

carpet bagger.

But there were lots of bags, like a rolling suitcase, the garbage bag filled with something, a purse. There was other -- it seemed like she was

just kind of looting the place if the allegations are true.

HARLOW (via telephone): It`s possible that`s what -- you know, and I`ve tried to find out, even the clothes that she was wearing, if they were hers

or if they were Pamela`s. I still don`t know that. But there was a lot of stuff taken out of that room, that we do know.

BANFIELD: She fled Minnesota in a hurry and couldn`t pack a lot, she would need a lot. And so maybe that was the new life that she was assuming, any

of the belongings that she might have needed allegedly from that apartment. There`s also this. And Rachel, I want to bring you in on this, the striking

similarities between the death of her husband and the death of -- her husband`s name is David Riess -- and the death of Pamela Hutchinson.

Here is the list. Both killed in the bathroom. Both with a 22-caliber handgun. Both of them covered. The husband is covered with a blanket. And

Pamela Hutchinson is covered with a towel. A towel is well stuffed under Pamela Hutchinson`s bathroom door. And both were looted afterwards. David

Riess was looted through checks and withdrawals. And Pamela was looted through ATMs and withdrawals.

Why is it only second-degree murder? This is (INAUDIBLE). That doesn`t carry the death penalty, second-degree.

KUGEL: So I have a couple of theories. My first theory is that, you know, a lot of times we see cases in which prosecutors overcharge and they make

their jobs really hard, right? Because first-degree, you have to know why someone`s doing it, you have to get in their head.

So one theory is that they`re trying to make an easy case for them. In my understanding, in Florida, if you kill somebody like this with a firearm, I

believe there`s a mandatory 25 years anyway, so it`s a pretty serious significant penalty, plus she`s facing other charges in other states. You

know, maybe they want everyone to get their sort of pound of flesh from her.

My other theory, however, is that it is going to become first-degree. And that we haven`t seen the last of it. Because it certainly looks to me if

they wanted to make that case, they have more than enough facts to give, you know, to give that a shot. And I think it would be a really strong case

for the prosecutors.

BANFIELD: Because they haven`t even said yet if they found any of those long platinum blonde hairs at the murder scene. They have seen her on

video. I got to leave it there, but it`s not over. You got to come back. We just keep getting all these weird details about this lady.

Any business owner would tell you that they absolutely love repeat customers. But not like this. Find out what happened here, next.

[18:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: One more thing for you tonight. What are the odds that the same guy would rob the same liquor store twice in a five-month period? And then

have the same clerk working the register both times?

Not only that, the Palmdale, California Sheriff`s Department says the perp hit the store at the same time of day, first thing in the morning, 8:00

a.m.

But in both robberies, he busted through the door, he assaulted a customer, and then he pointed the gun at the clerk and demanded money. The police are

now asking for help in finding the suspect.

He`s described as a black male, six feet tall, about 200 pounds, but he`s got this distinguishing characteristic, an earring in his right ear, for

what that`s worth.

[19:00:03] He may just like an early drink as well. What are the odds?

Next hour of CRIME & JUSTICE starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD (voice-over): A football player and a high school cheerleader, the classic American couple, but did he shoot her dead through her bedroom

wall?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is going to be (INAUDIBLE).

BANFIELD: That`s what police say happened after they broke up. And now he is headed to trial.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s overwhelming.

BANFIELD: Did he plot her murder weeks before and steal a gun to do it? And will he get the death penalty for the murder of his 16-year-old ex?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She made central high school a better place. She made the world a better place.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She had one of the biggest and brightest personalities that we have ever come across.

BANFIELD: His mistress didn`t show up for their date.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He got concerned and showed up at the house.

BANFIELD: Then he found her dead, his wife dead too.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Probably less than five minutes after she went in, I heard a noise.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police cars, ambulances, all flashing their lights.

BANFIELD: Police say the wife ambushed the girlfriend.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was a calculated, planned attack.

BANFIELD: Before turning the gun on herself.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were emails and text messages indicating what she planned to do.

BANFIELD: But could police have kept it from happening if someone had just spoken up earlier?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somebody had that lady standing in her driveway with binoculars, probably sizing up the house or possibly observing the pattern

of the female victim.

BANFIELD: And the incredible crash on a California freeway.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Flames from the engine, it`s hard to get close to the car stuck underneath. The car that is underneath get on fire.

BANFIELD: How good Samaritans battled flames to save lives.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some way to pry him out, but we can`t, because he`s stuck.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: Good evening, everyone, I`m Ashleigh Banfield. Thanks for coming back for the second hour of CRIME & JUSTICE.

Teen girls are so strangers to drama and dramatic break-ups. But not all of them go through one like Emma Walker did. She is a Knoxville

cheerleader who allegedly tried to break up with her football player boyfriend only to be threatened and stalked until she took a bullet to the

head through her bedroom wall and died. Lawyers say she even asked her parents to turn on the home security system the night before her death.

Emma was killed while she was sleeping in her own bed. When Emma`s parents went to wake her up the next morning and then discovered that their

daughter was dead, they say they instantly knew who might have done it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They asked you to name somebody if you could who would harm your daughter and you gave them a name, didn`t you?

MARK WALKER, VICTIM`S FATHER: Riley Gaul.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Emma`s parents had not approved of Riley Gaul, even before they thought of him as their daughter`s killer. He, they said, was a troubled

teen, possibly suicidal, who police say stole his grandfather`s gun to kill his ex-girlfriend Emma, before posting messages like this to social media.

There will never be a time where I stop thinking about you. And rest easy now, beautiful. I`ll be praying to you every night, waiting for a sign

that you hear me. I love you, Em, never forget that.

Now he is on trial for her murder. And a jury has just been selected. A jury that`s going to have to decide whether he should get the death penalty

for what happened to Emma, for what they say is taking his ex-girlfriend`s life.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS HAMMONN, TEACHER, CENTRAL HIGH SCHOOL: He told me that she wanted to be a neonatal nurse. And she had the kind disposition and the heart that

it would take to do that job.

Her heart for other people, her love for other people, for kids, for her classmates, for school, I mean, it`s just overwhelming.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: With me now, Rachel Stockman, editor in chief for Law and Crime Network, also defense attorney Rachel Kugel and certified death

investigator and professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University Joseph Scott Morgan.

Rachel Stockman, let me start with you. We have two Rachels, so I`m going to be careful here how I address my questions. But you have been covering

the case. I had no idea what he was going to come out with in opening statements, how he was going to explain away so much of the evidence that

they have. I mean, he is there. He is wearing black. They catch him with a gun, but what is his defense attorney saying?

RACHEL STOCKMAN, EDITOR IN CHIEF, LAW AND CRIME NETWORK: Me too. That`s exactly what I was wondering. His defense is basically, yes, I shot her,

but I didn`t do it because I wanted to murder her or kill her. I wanted to do it to scare her so I could come in and rescue her and maybe that way she

would want to get back together with me.

[19:05:08] BANFIELD: This is like the white knight?

STOCKMAN: Yes. And the defense also presented some other evidence during opening statements that he had done this sort of thing in the past, kind a

trying to set up these scenarios where he scared her and that he would rescue and be there and be her comfort.

BANFIELD: There was a phone call -- he made some creepy phone calls -- I don`t know if he`s admitting to this, maybe you can tell me that using an

app to disguise his voice, he makes a creepy phone call to her, scares the living day lights out of her and then the defense attorney says, and guess

what happened, Emma came running to him for protection. Is this all the defense story or did it happen?

STOCKMAN: This is according to the prosecution. And I think they have enough evidence.

BANFIELD: So it`s true, the prosecution is even saying this happened?

STOCKMAN: Absolutely. But they are saying that this all led up to him intentionally murdering her. The defense has another theory, of course.

That this was all a way for him to rescue her and that he was this love sick boy that was in love with this girl that you see on the screen right

there.

BANFIELD: A beautiful couple?

STOCKMAN: Yes.

BANFIELD: All American, the cheerleader and the football player. What could possibly go wrong?

STOCKMAN: But, you know, the prosecution is saying this was really a scheme, and that he had thought about this ahead of time and wanted her

dead.

BANFIELD: Does he have a lot of supporters in the courtroom?

STOCKMAN: Does he?

BANFIELD: Yes.

STOCKMAN: She does. I`ll tell you that much. There`s people there that are wearing support t-shirts in support of her. As far as I know, from my

producer that`s in the courtroom there, there`s not a ton of people there supporting except his family.

BANFIELD: His family is there, though.

STOCKMAN: Yes.

BANFIELD: So, I also heard that when you say the t-shirts supporting, that they were wearing purple. I have heard judges say, there will be no

buttons, there will be no outward display of bias in this courtroom from anyone in the gallery, but that is not happening here.

STOCKMAN: No, the judge has allowed this. So it`s a bit unusual.

BANFIELD: Rachel Kugel, could that be an appeal issue if the courtroom is stacked with people wearing support purple t-shirts for her?

RACHEL KUGEL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think it kind of depends not to be overloaded, but I think it kind of depends like what the t-shirt said and

stuff. I mean, if it`s her name or -- I see that in New York a lot, people wear, you know, buttons or ribbons with someone`s picture, so that if it is

like justice for her or something, I think that`s a problem.

BANFIELD: But I have heard judges say, take all those buttons off.

KUGEL: I mean, I think it`s cleaner and safer, you know. Why would you want to leave something out that could possibly be an appellate issue?

BANFIELD: To real quickly, Rachel Stockman, walk us through sort of what happened and how this whole night played out, the night that Emma goes to

bed in her own bed and gets a bullet to the head through her bedroom wall. What happened?

STOCKMAN: So according to the prosecution, he was outside the home, shot at least one bullet, hit her in the head.

BANFIELD: Jumped a fence to do this? A six-foot fence around the house? Did he jump to fence?

STOCKMAN: Right. And gets right there and shoots, which is kind of weird to think that he didn`t mean to kill her if he shot a gun right into her

window.

BANFIELD: And he didn`t fire in the air.

STOCKMAN: Right.

(CROSSTALK)

STOCKMAN: The amazing thing though is that apparently, the family didn`t hear any of this until the next morning when they realized she wasn`t

coming out of her room and they found her laying in her bed, turning blue. Just a really, really horrible situation. So sad.

BANFIELD: I can`t even begin to imagine what that family is going through. But there`s still more about his behavior and what he did after that

moment, throughout the night and into the next day, the phone calls he made, the people he contacted, the things he asked them to do, what

happened?

STOCKMAN: Yes. Well, he actually apparently was borrowing the car of his grandfather. And his grandfather noticed, according to testimony that we

are supposed to hear during trial, that his pistol, his gun went missing. And Gaul apparently had taken it.

BANFIELD: That`s Riley?

STOCKMAN: Riley, yes. And he had actually told a friend that he wanted to get rid, after this happened, that he wanted to get rid of this weapon.

That friend then went to police.

BANFIELD: There`s a couple of friends involved, and maybe I`m crossing the same friends, but you tell me. Not only did he call a friend and ask how

to get fingerprints off of a gun allegedly --

STOCKMAN: According to the prosecution.

BANFIELD: According to the prosecution, right. And then said to that friend, a roommate wants to know how to get fingerprints off of a gun.

Then reaches out to a friend and said, I`m going to text you something but I need you to delete it right away. Do you know what he texted?

STOCKMAN: I`m not sure.

BANFIELD: I don`t know either. I think that`s coming out in trial. I`m waiting for it. I`m kind of glued to this one. And then he said, I think

it had something to do with the gun, the text he was asking to be deleted. And then he asked two friends to help him get rid of a gun.

First of all, it`s this big. How do you need to -- I get how you need friends to help you move a body, but why do you need two friends to help

you move a gun?

[19:10:07] KUGEL: Well, I think, and this is exactly why the prosecution here is going after this intentional murder charge because they are seeing

all this evidence, especially how he acted after the shooting, because, you know, if this was really a scenario, well, he was just trying to scare her,

why didn`t he go to police right away, say, oh, my goodness, I was just doing this to scare her. I didn`t mean to shoot her.

BANFIELD: Yes. One of those friends did go to police after he called allegedly, right, by prosecutors` story.

STOCKMAN: Yes.

BANFIELD: One of those friends said, dear God, Riley just called me asking about guns and fingerprints and disposing of a weapon or whatever the story

was. And they set up a sting, followed the friend and Riley, stopped his car, found the gun, found a bag of all these weird dark clothes.

STOCKMAN: Yes, all this dark clothes.

BANFIELD: Black tape around his shoes.

STOCKMAN: Right. And this connects back to another story that came out during the prosecutions` opening statements. They claim he had actually

done something similar before in the neighborhood. But of course the defense is trying to say this was all him trying to scare her. And him

trying to come to the rescue, get their relationship closer.

BANFIELD: OK. So, Rachel Kugel, I`m going to ask you a question and ask you to hold your answer because I want you to think it through a little

bit. If he is admitting to doing this stupid thing, I just want to scare her and fire a gun into a home, that`s a crime, that`s a felony. Why would

this not be felony murder, right? So then you can get him on either one. You get him on first-degree murder if you want the death penalty, you can

get him on felony murder. So think that through.

And in the meantime, this is the question for you, Joseph Scott Morgan. Do they need more than that? And when you fire a bullet through, say, a wall,

of a bedroom, does it compromise the bullet to the point where you can no longer match it to the gun? Or is it all bets are off, no matter what that

bullet goes through?

JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: Yes. Actually, it does compromise, because this is what is referred to as an intermediate target,

Ash. And so when the projectile passes through the dry wall and the exterior of the house, it will change it.

However, there will be ballistic fingerprints left behind. And that is the key, isn`t it? If they can put the weapon in this young man`s hand and it

put the bullet in the weapon, this is going to be an immediate tieback.

One of the things I`m fascinating by listening you lay speak is that fact that he didn`t just randomly go to any area surrounding the house, he went

to the area immediately outside of her bedroom.

BANFIELD: I think you nailed it. I think you nailed it. I think that`s the point.

STOCKMAN: Why would you shoot into a bedroom with a gun if you didn`t want to kill someone?

BANFIELD: Rachel Kugel, that would be considered a felony. And if someone dies in the commission of a felony, it`s felony murder. Do you see him

going down for this?

KUGEL: So let`s be clear. He is not going home. He has admitted to some pretty serious crimes. And as far as the felony murder issue, they have

attached the felony murder to the child abuse --

BANFIELD: That`s one of the charges.

KUGEL: Yes, charge. So I think the bet`s off as you describe, a child abuse still has an intent element. He has to mean at least to seriously

hurt her. And I might surprise you here, but I actually think this is a good defense.

BANFIELD: Really?

KUGEL: I do. Because I think that there is -- I mean, even when the story first broke and he was first arrested, I believe I was with you that night

and I believe I said right then, I think that there`s some real questions when someone shoots through a wall, not looking at a person. And this

isn`t just someone. He is a 19-year-old kid --

BANFIELD: Eighteen.

KUGEL: I mean, you know, and he is -- the point being, you know.

STOCKMAN: And we talked about earlier how he lured her before to come out of the house. So that is an interesting point.

BANFIELD: The stalker behavior leading up to this.

STOCKMAN: Yes. According to prosecutors, so why wouldn`t he have just led her into a situation where he could shoot --

BANFIELD: Domestic violence is not just for the grown-ups. It happens to these kids. So you are coming back on this one as we continue to cover

this.

Rachel, you are coming back, too. And thank you, Joseph Scott Morgan.

A scorned woman is a dangerous woman, and now Pennsylvania police are piecing together what drove a middle-aged wife to stalk and then ambush and

murder her husband`s mistress in a shocking murder/suicide.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:19:00] BANFIELD: By all accounts Meredith Chapman was a talented, successful person. She had run for a state senate seat. She worked at the

University of Delaware. And she had just taken a job at Villanova. But Meredith Chapman was dating a married man. And that married man`s wife was

not the least bit happy about it. In fact, the last thing Meredith likely saw before she took a bullet to the head was that wife, lying in wait

inside Meredith`s new apartment, right before Meredith was scheduled to go on a dinner date with that wife`s cheating husband.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUPERINTENDENT WILLIAM COLARULO, RADNOR POLICE DEPARTMENT: She was lying in wake and she shot her as soon as she walked in. Then she shot herself.

This was a calculated, planned attack. There were emails and text messages indicating what she planned to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: According to local reports, Jennair Gerardo rented a car for her revenge road trip, booking it a week in advance and driving 30 miles to the

home of the mistress. But police reportedly found a wig and some extra clothes in that rental car. And that got them wondering, was this a

murder/suicide? Was that always part of the plan? Or did Jennair plan to make it out alive?

I want to bring in my panel, Solomon Jones, morning host on Praise 107.9 FM. Also defense attorney Rachel Kugel is still with me.

Solomon, firs to you. That is a bizarre story. A woman who seemingly was happy but for a few clues about a troubled marriage, who ends up going

through all of this. Can you fill in any of these gaps?

[19:20:46] SOLOMON JONES, MORNING HOST, PRAISE 107.9 FM: Yes. Well, apparently, the two of them, the husband and Miss Chapman had worked

together at the University of Delaware. She had worked at the WHYY where I do some work here at Philadelphia.

This was an accomplished young woman who was moving up the ladder quickly. And her own marriage was on the rocks. In fact, the divorce was already in

the process when she was killed. And so, you have two people who are in these troubled marriages, who work together at the University of Delaware,

who then begin to engage in this affair. And then once the wife found out, the wife who was even trying to save her own marriage, things just spiraled

out of control from there.

BANFIELD: So, you know, when this sort of thing happens, the first person that police would look to would be maybe the guy who discovers the bodies.

And I say "bodies" because they were both right there in this mistress` home. The ambush worked. The mistress was killed instantly, I think. And

then for some weird reason, the wife Jennair turned the gun on herself and I believe shot herself in the head. Did they think this might have been

staged and that the husband was part of this?

JONES: No, I think they immediately thought that this was something that the wife had done, probably because of the way that the bodies were

arranged. Probably because of what they found with the wounds from the 357 magnum that she used. They questioned the husband immediately, but it was

determined fairly quickly it was a murder/suicide.

And again, the wife was trying to save her marriage right up until the time that she found out that he was engaged in this affair. And then of course

a series of emails and text messages show that she began to plot her revenge.

BANFIELD: Yes, there is some weird stuff. I mean, honestly, you know how so many marriages seem on the outside to be OK, only to find out that

they`re not OK.

I was reading through some of Jennair`s postings, and there`s this Web site called Next Door, it`s usually a community billboard. But Jennair was

posting on Next Door, and it sounded like she was desperate for help but didn`t want anyone to know it was her because she wrote, I just transferred

to Delaware -- not true -- for my husband`s new job, and he is telling me he wants a divorce. I don`t know anyone and I`m completely clueless to the

area. Can someone please recommend a reputable and successful and driven divorce attorney? Is that the only or some of the first indications that

there was sort of trouble on the horizon in this marriage?

JONES: Well, there were more messages on Next Door. First, she talked about the divorce attorney. And then she is talking about marriage

counselling and saying she doesn`t care what kind of marriage counselling it is, whether it`s religiously based, whether it is a marriage boot camp,

whatever it is. And that`s just a weird thing to post on a community billboard and to let everyone know about, like you are looking for this

kind of help in your marriage. And so there were a series of messages that she posted that just would seem to anyone looking from the outside, would

seem to be like completely just strange.

BANFIELD: Yes. Which might be exactly why she didn`t want to it sound like it was someone in the neighborhood. I just moved here. I don`t know

this place well. I need a divorce attorney.

I just found out that you were just talking about. According to philly.com, she wrote on Next Door, please recommend an excellent -- in all

caps -- marriage counsellor. This is after the divorce attorney posting. Marriage counsellor for a couple on the brink of divorce. We will need

someone who is very educated and experienced dealing with couples` issues, including infidelity, depression, traumatic experiences, child/parent

dynamics, being accountable actions, et cetera. Do we know anything about kids in this family?

JONES: Not that I know of. You know, there might be kids, but everything that I have read mentioned no children. And so I wonder if she is putting

in that to throw people off the scent that it`s her that is actually, you know, looking for this help.

[19:25:06] BANFIELD: Yes. I think I read somewhere that they had a dog. That they lived with their dog. And I don`t know that means they only had

a dog or that they are empty nesters and they have a dog. I`m not sure what it is. I think it is sort of early in the offense (ph).

So that brings me to you, Rachel. Typically, we can`t talk so definitively about a fresh killing because there are charges, you`re innocent until

proven guilty. You can`t say she did it. You can say, police say she did it. In this case, she did.

KUGEL: Yes.

BANFIELD: And you can say she did it. So is there an investigation? Do the police need to spend money and resources to find out why she did it,

how she did it, the rental car, the lying in wait?

KUGEL: Yes, I mean, I think that anytime there`s any kind of homicide, whether the perpetrator is dead or not, they have to go through a series of

process of investigations. The medical examiner`s report, there is also making sure that no one else was involved, who rented the car, who knew

about it, what were motives, all of these things are important. And I think there is still will be an investigation.

BANFIELD: And let`s not forget, this cheating husband is still around. And clearly, he is suffering, the worst suffering you could possibly ask

someone to undertake, the death of two people that he probably loved. And so there is that.

I want to just play if I can before we go to break, what the police said about the husband, because he was the one who was waiting for his mistress

to show up for dinner, and she didn`t show up for dinner, so of course, where would he go? He would go to his mistress` home and walk in on that.

Have a listen to what the police said about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLARULO: We believe the husband was in the area under the belief that he was meeting the other woman for dinner. And when she didn`t show up,

that`s when he got concerned and showed up at the house.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: That`s got to stay with you forever.

I want the both of you to stick around if you can because police say this murder/suicide never had to happen. And that if a witness who saw

something had said something, Meredith Chapman might still be alive today, and so might Jennair Gerardo.

We are going to tell you who saw what and how it didn`t get transmitted next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:32:29] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HLN HOST: We`re still talking about that dramatic double killing that rocked the town of Radnor, Pennsylvania,

that`s where police say Jennair Gerardot broke into the home of the woman her husband was seeing on the side, waited for her to come home, ambushed

her and shot her right in the head.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MELISSA DEJOSEPH, NEIGHBOR: As soon as she went in, probably less than five minutes after she went in, I heard a noise that at the time I was

like, was that a gunshot?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: But police say it wasn`t the only gunshot. They say Jennair then shot herself in the head next. So when her husband arrived at the

scene, wondering why his mistress hadn`t shown up for their dinner date, he would find both of them dead on the floor. And what`s more police are

saying none of this had to happen. Because someone reportedly saw Jennair at the scene of the crime watching the house through a set of binoculars

while standing on a neighbor`s driveway. Only that witness did not tell the police what they saw until it was too late. My panel is still with me.

Solomon Jones and Rachel Kugel. 16 hours too late. The witness e-mailed the tip in, Solomon?

SOLOMON JONES, MORNING HOST, PRAISE 107.9 F.M.: Yes. That`s what William Colarulo from that police department says that, you know, later on, the

person said, you know, I saw this person out in the yard and they had a pair of binoculars and they were looking at this woman`s house, and I

didn`t think anything of it. I thought she had lost a pet or something. And so I didn`t, you know, make that call. But she`s driving that same

Cadillac that she had rented, she`s the same woman. And unfortunately, this person didn`t think to call 911, much to chagrin in and regret of the

police.

BANFIELD: Oh, I`ll say, you know, here are the police talking a little bit about that. Chris Flanagan with the Radnor Township Police, describing,

you know, what it was they were told, unfortunately, 16 hours too late. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS FLANAGAN, DEPUTY SUPERINTENDENT, RADNOR TOWNSHIP POLICE DEPARTMENT: We received specific information that somebody had that lady in the

driveway with binoculars, possibly sizing up the house or possibly observing the pattern of the female victim. Clearly that could have been a

situation where maybe we could have easily avoided this by having an intervention.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: An intervention. I mean, Solomon, when you hear about some of the details that, you know, not only the binoculars, but also ammunition,

gloves, earplugs, all found in Jennair`s car.

[19:35:03] And then the change of clothes, the disguise. Is it sort of commonly thought that they figured Jennair did not plan to kill herself and

then saw what she did and ended it sort of as a last-minute decision?

JONES: Yes. I think that, you know, she had it planned out. She had obviously cased the house, she had sent these text messages, e-mails. She

had planned what she was going to do. And I think then at the last minute, she decided that she would just going to end it all. I think, you know, in

this neighborhood of Radnor, you have to understand, this is on the main line in Philadelphia. This is outside of the city in a very, very rich

neighborhood, in a place where these things don`t happen with much frequency. And so I think the neighbors and not to defend them, but I

think they probably just could not imagine that this would happen in this kind of neighborhood, just, you know, a short distance from Villanova

University. And so I think that that is part of what went into them not calling the police when they saw this person, not calling the police

immediately after the gun shots. I just think they could not imagine that this would happen in such a wealthy neighborhood.

BANFIELD: Yes. Well, Villanova was where, you know, Meredith had just taken a job. She had just moved to this neighborhood. She was super

excited about it. Posting all about how excited she was. She left the University of Delaware where she was working and strangely enough, that`s

where she was the boss of the man she was dating. The man who was cheating on his wife. So it was just sort of fascinating. You know, the Instagram

postings, if you look at them, Rachel, the man -- again, we`re not naming him because he`s a victim. You know, he`s a victim, now, his wife is dead,

his girlfriend`s dead, but there`s really no love lost for this guy on social media.

RACHEL KUGEL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. I mean, he`s really -- on social media, it`s interesting to me that people are really going after him. And

I`m sure, you know, listen, we can all speculate but probably that`s part of what he`s dealing with, you know, the responsibility, not legally, of

course, for this, but maybe morally whatever you have to sort of deal with in that, and certainly a lot for him to unpack.

BANFIELD: But for his behavior, those two women would probably be alive. I mean, that`s the reality.

KUGEL: And to look at it online, to look at the social media posts, this appears to have been a husband and wife that were, you know, blissfully

happy, pictures with their beautiful, perfect dog.

BANFIELD: (INAUDIBLE)

KUGEL: Yes. Well, I mean, and, you know --

BANFIELD: Baloney.

KUGEL: You never know what`s really going on.

BANFIELD: You never known. I do want -- if I am Meredith Chapman`s family, I want justice, right? But the person I want justice from is dead.

Can I sue her estate for wrongful death?

KUGEL: So you actually -- there actually is a mechanism by which you can sue someone who is no longer with us. The sort of interesting thing here

that might play out is, I mean, her estate probably is also essentially this husband`s, you know, her lover`s estate in essence. If you -- if you

sue her and her estate, you are sort of hurting really the person who was her lover.

BANFIELD: Well, they may have no love for him. Either they may feel like but for him our Meredith would be alive. So technically he could only just

be seeing the start of his worries.

KUGEL: I think so. I mean, I think this is a long road of figuring out what happened, what went wrong. I mean, obviously this is someone he had a

relationship with who had a --

BANFIELD: So hold on a second.

KUGEL: -- seemingly normal life and then snaps.

BANFIELD: Hold on. If you want to sue Jennair, the killer, but she`s married, how do you know what`s hers and what`s his? And how do you sue

for just hers? Because they can`t sue for what`s his, but how do you distinguish?

KUGEL: Well, because there`s nothing is really hers in that way anymore, right? Because if you`re a husband and wife and you`re still married, and

they were still married.

(CROSSTALK)

KUGEL: Right. I mean, in most -- even if you have an insurance -- a life insurance policy, for example, most of that just sort of automatically goes

to your husband.

BANFIELD: Can they sue for all of it?

KUGEL: Well, I mean, listen, she was a young woman with a bright future, there`s arguably substantial damages.

BANFIELD: Wow.

KUGEL: And, you know, who does it really impact?

BANFIELD: Tragic and weird and also sort of mystifying all at the same time. Rachel, I`m going to ask you to stay. Solomon Jones, thank you,

sir. Always nice to have you on the program. I want to take you to Los Angeles now. What a dramatic rescue. I don`t know if you saw this, but

this was caught on camera after a big rig crashed in 405 slamming into five other cars, trapping a driver underneath that horrible, fiery wreck. Look

at all those good Samaritans, some of them you saw were military personnel. They all raced onto the scenes, they literally used whatever they could to

get their hands on to try put the fire out and free that trapped man. Look closely, if you can see it, there`s dirt they`re throwing, sand, bottles,

watery -- on the flames. But they did get him out. They borrowed a saw. They cut the man free. That man apparently did suffer severe burns, but

the good news is, it worked. They got him out. He`s expected to survive. Listen to the din of activity. Unbelievable. Two other people were also

hurt in this, but again, unbelievable video of that, what could have been a deadly fire, but he survived.

[19:40:00:00] Remarkable pictures too. Tonight, Losing Streak Lois. Recognize that name? She`s also been called the killer granny, allegedly.

Well, she`s been sitting behind bars in Florida accused of lookalike. Guess what we`re now learning about her, really weird things, like what she

did right after the killing. And what she was seen taking from the dead woman`s home as the dead woman was decomposing.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:45:20] BANFIELD: Tonight the family of two of the Golden State killer`s victims are speaking out about the arrest of Joseph James

DeAngelo. Keith Harrington and his wife patty were killed in 1980 in Southern California. Bruce Harrington spoke exclusively to HLN about what

he was thinking when he first saw the accused killer`s photo.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRUCE HARRINGTON, BROTHER AND WIFE KILLED BY GOLDEN STATE KILLER: Honestly, on Wednesday, I didn`t want to look at the many pictures, poster

pictures. I mean, he looked like a troll that had crawled out from under a bridge. Disgusting. But I wanted to block that out. That day at least.

Because I really -- I felt it very important --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: It`s not just the horror of Keith and Patty`s death that has haunted his family. The reality that their remains were considered to be

potentially important evidence. And that meant that Keith`s desire to be cremated could not be honored.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RON HARRINGTON, BROTHER AND WIFE KILLED BY GOLDEN STATE KILLER: Keith and Patty`s grave -- I went to the cemetery yesterday, Keith and Patty are

actually buried together, they`re in the same grave together. Maybe we`ll get to this later, but Keith was a huge boater, and there had been

discussions that if anything ever happened to him we could perhaps he would be cremated and his ashes would be strewn in front of Catalina Island,

which is so much a part of our family. But because of the forensic issues, obviously that could not happen. The bodies had to be kept in case they

had to be exhumed further.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Joseph James DeAngelo`s next scheduled court appearance is in two weeks on May 4th, and we will cover it.

We`ve also got some brand-new details on that Minnesota grandmother. You know the woman accused of murdering two people before going on the run for

a month? They called her the killer granny in the press. Well, it was already shocking enough, the reports that she killed her husband in their

bathroom before driving down to Florida, befriending a woman who looked just like her, only to allegedly take her life and her identity and then

hit the road in her car too. But now we`re learning that Lois Riess didn`t hit the road right away. According to a new affidavit, she allegedly shot

Pamela Hutchinson in the heart, she draped a towel over Pamela`s body and then she stuffed another towel under the bathroom door so that the smell of

Pamela`s decomposing body would not escape. Investigators say she just might have pretended to be Pamela when she called the front desk at the

condo association asking, you know, if she could just extend her stay a few days, being that I`m Pamela and all, right? When Lois finally got out of

town, all that was left of Pamela was that body. Because police say Lois took her cash, her credit cards, her driver`s license, even her gold rings.

And then they say she went to this hotel and ordered up herself some room service, twice. And then just ordered up a movie as well. All on Pamela`s

dime. They say she forged Pamela`s signature when she did all this, but she`s on video. I want to bring in Tim Harlow, reporter for the Star

Tribune. And Rachel Kugel is still with me. Tim, when you and I started talking about this story, I think we would have been astounded to hear all

of these details, but they`re all coming out now and I`m wondering if any of them surprise you.

TIM HARLOW, REPORTER, STAR TRIBUBE (via telephone): You know, this has just been one of those cases with so many twists and turns from the

beginning. So part of me says, no, I`m not surprised, but this is just very chilling and very calculated on her part.

BANFIELD: So tell me a little bit about what we know about the murder scene, about Pamela Hutchinson, apart from the fact that she was killed in

the bathroom and the towel was stuffed under the door. There`s more forensic evidence in that bathroom with the body, do you know?

HARLOW: Well, you know, one of the things that was mentioned to us, there is this pillow with a gunshot through it and residue and I haven`t quite

figured out exactly how that played into the scene, but that was very well mentioned in the affidavit. And they did notice that, like you say, a lot

of her belongings, her rings, her cash, were gone, and so was her vehicle.

BANFIELD: So then there`s the notion of the -- of the money because we`ve all heard over and over that she stole Lois`s identity and her credit cards

and her things and then used the credit cards to continue on her way.

[19:50:09] But she actually is alleged to have gone to an ATM, and I think it might be three times, and that she went as far as to a teller to

withdraw cash. You know, have a limit at the ATM, if you don`t have a limit when you go up to the teller, how much do they think she took from

the teller?

HARLOW: We`ve got that at a couple thousand and then there were three ATM withdrawals of up to 500. So, it was a nice chunk of change.

BANFIELD: There`s also this really sick detail as we look at how she was being processed in Lee County. Or by the way, she`s only facing second-

degree murder. And if you think about that little detail of the pillow with the gunshot residue, it`s a weird because that shirt sounds like it`s

premeditated if you have to pull a pillow over someone to maybe muffle the sound of the gunshot or stop the blood spatter but let`s get to that in a

moment. She`s seen 11 times on video going back and forth from Pamela Hutchinson`s condo carrying things. Do you know what she was carrying?

HARLOW: You know, we still don`t know and that is one of the burning questions I think we have, it`s like what was in those garbage bags and

specifically, what`s in that tote bag because that`s mentioned a couple times and we --

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: I kept saying it looks like one of those carpet bagger -- carpet bags, the white thing. I couldn`t tell at first if it was a shopping bag,

like a plastic shopping bag with a shape. You could really clearly make out on a big screen T.V. That`s one of those carpet bagger. But there

were lots of bags, like a rolling suitcase, the garbage bag filled with something. A purse. There was other like -- it seemed like she was just

kind of looting the place, if the allegations are true.

BANFIELD: It`s possible that that`s what --you know, and I have tried to find out, even the clothes that she was wearing, if they were hers or if

they were Pamela`s. I still don`t know that. But there was a lot of stuff taken out of that little, that we do know.

BANFIELD: Yes. Is she, you know, fled Minnesota in a hurry and couldn`t pack a lot, she would need a lot. And so, maybe that was the new life that

she was assuming, clothes and all, any of the belongings that she might have needed allegedly from that apartment. There is also this. And

Rachel, I want to bring you in on this the striking similarities between the death of her husband and the death of -- and her husband`s name is

David Riess and the death of Pamela Hutchinson. And here`s the list. Both killed in the bathroom. Both with a .22-cal handgun. Both have been

covered. The husband is covered with blanket and Pamela Hutchinson is covered with a towel, a towel as well as stuff under Pamela Hutchinson`s

bathroom door. And both were looted afterwards. David Riess was looted to checks and withdrawals and Pamela was looted through ATMs and withdrawal.

Why is it only second-degree murder? This is astounding, so that doesn`t carry the death penalty, the second degree.

KUGEL: No. So I have -- I have a couple other theories. My first theory is that, you know, a lot of times we see cases in which prosecutors

overcharged and they make their jobs really hard, right? Because first degree, you have to know why someone is doing it, you have to get into

their head. So one theory is that, they`re trying to make an easy case for them. And my understand of Florida, if you kill somebody like this with a

-- with a firearm, I believe there`s a mandatory 25 years anyway. So, it`s a pretty serious significant penalty plus she`s facing other charges in

other states. You know, maybe they want everyone to get their sort of pound of flesh from her. My other theory however is it is going to become

a first degree. And that we haven`t seen a lot of it because it certainly looks to me, if they wanted to make that case, they have more than enough

facts, you know, to give that a shot and I think it would be a really strong case for the prosecutor.

BANFIELD: Especially they haven`t even said yet if they found any of those long platinum blond hairs at the murder scene, they`ve seen her on video

but I got to leave it there. But it`s not over, you got to come back and talk more about this one. Just keep getting these weird details about this

lady.

Any business owner would tell you that they absolutely love repeat customers but not like this. Find out what happened here next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:59:12] BANFIELD: And just one more thing for you tonight. You probably think the chances of being robbed while on the job are pretty

remote. But how about being robbed twice by the same guy? That`s exactly what police in California say happened at this Palmdale Liquor Store. And

it wasn`t just the same guy who they say did it twice, it was also at the exact same time of day. 8:00 a.m. with the same clerk, sitting behind the

counter both times. In both robberies, he busted through the door. He assaulted a customer and then pointed the gun at the clerk demanding cash.

So now police are releasing these clips and asking for help in finding the suspect. And here`s what they can tell you about him, other than he likes

to drink early or rob early, described as a black male about male about six feet tall, 200 pounds or so, with an earring in his right here.

[20:00:01] So there`s that. We`re going to see you right back here I hope tomorrow at 6:00 Eastern Time. And you can listen to our show any time.

Download our podcast on Apple Podcasts, the iHeartRadio. Get here to tune in or wherever you get your podcasts.

END