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HALA GORANI TONIGHT
Source: Cobb Wanted No Part Of "Mud Slinging Campaign"; Trump Rips Rigged Justice System, Threatens To Get Involved; Doctor Says His Office Raided For Trump Files; Cambridge Analytica To Close Down; Pompeo Promises Tough Diplomacy When Necessary; Daimler To Investigate Child Labor Claims After CNN Report; Kanye West Under Fire For Saying Slavery A Choice. Aired 3-4p ET
Aired May 2, 2018 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. Live from CNN London, I'm Hala Gorani.
Tonight, a legal showdown looms, President Trump shakes up his legal team again as the special counsel in the Russia investigation considers forcing
the president to testify.
Also, provocative comments by Kanye West on slavery are causing huge controversy. I'll speak to radio host, Charlamagne Tha God, who
interviewed the rapper.
And just one day after CNN reported on child labor in cobalt mining, one company and it's a big one, is vowing to investigate its supply chain.
And we start with Donald Trump once again and his attorneys appearing ready for a historic legal showdown that could lead all the way to the Supreme
Court. A lot of big developments to bring you from the White House this hour.
Starting with the massive shakeup in Mr. Trump's legal team, and it's another one, by the way, after he denied many times that his legal team was
stable. An attorney who supports cooperation with the Russia probe is leaving and he's replaced by a lawyer, who represented then President Bill
Clinton during his impeachment proceedings.
The shakeup comes just after news emerged that Special Counsel Robert Mueller has considered forcing Mr. Trump to testify in the Russia
investigation by issuing a subpoena. The outgoing White House attorney, Ty Cobb, apparently wanted no part of Mr. Trump's continuing attacks on the
Mueller probe saying he didn't want to be associated with a mud-slinging campaign.
Let's bring in White House reporter, Jeremy Diamond. So, talk to us and tell people who might not be familiar with these names, Ty Cobb out
replaced by someone named Emmet Flood. Why is this significant?
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: That's right. Well, this is an extremely significant move. You know, Ty Cobb has been one of the
attorneys on the legal team, who has pushed repeatedly for the president to cooperate with the special counsel's team. He has been a lone voice in
Many of the attorneys on the president's legal team, particularly the newer members on the team, have argued in favor of a tougher approach. An
approach that would bring the president and his legal team at odds perhaps with the special counsel.
And so that's what we were told. It's one of the reasons Ty Cobb has left because he has been increasingly urging the president not to take that
approach increasingly feuding with the president over some of that approach.
And so now, the question is what will Emmet Flood do, and will he bring a different approach to this investigation? Certainly, the president has
been more active on Twitter, for example, going after the special counsel's probe.
And so, there are all these questions about how he now moves forward, but it does appear by all -- you know, all indications are that the president
is gearing up to be more combative with the special counsel.
GORANI: Right. One of the things he tweeted -- and it's fascinating that the president should stay this so openly, because it appears as though he
is saying he might consider getting in the way of this investigation as president of the United States.
This is what he tweeted, "At some point, I will have no choice," he tweets, "but to get involved and to use the powers granted to the presidency and
get involved." It's a pretty remarkable thing to say, isn't it?
DIAMOND: Absolutely. There is a question as to what exactly the president means by that. I believe that tweet was specifically in reference to the
documents that some conservative members of the house have been trying to get unsuccessfully so far from the Justice Department.
So, question as to whether he would get involved in that effort, but does it perhaps mean will he get involve more broadly? The president has been
teasing that notion in recent days and weeks suggesting that he has tried to keep some distance from the investigation most likely because he knows
that that would be politically and potentially legally problematic for him.
But he has tried to keep some of that distance, and now it appears that the president may be reconsidering that stance. But at least for the moment,
what I think we can expect to see in the coming weeks is the president and his legal team taking a much more combative approach with the special
counsel, perhaps going after him more directly on Twitter.
And with his lawyers' own statements, we saw certainly one of the president's new attorneys, Rudy Giuliani, the former New York City mayor,
who has said that he is working to try and whittle down the scope of questions that Mueller is interested in asking the president.
[15:05:09] making clear that he will not be getting some kind of a long 12- hour interview with the president.
GORANI: All right. And that's Rudy Giuliani, who just recently joined a legal team that has seen many departures and many new faces and names
joining that group of people, these pictures we showed on our air. Thanks very much, Jeremy Diamond.
Now another story involving President Trump also making headlines today, one that goes right to the heart of his credibility. Remember that glowing
bill of health that Mr. Trump received before the election that described his strength and stamina as, quote, "extraordinary," and said he would be
the, quote, "healthiest individual ever elected to the presidency?"
Well, it turned out that that statement was dictated by Mr. Trump himself to his doctor. And it's the doctor himself, the one who has signed it,
Harold Bornstein, the president's former physician, who is saying it. The doctor calls the letter black humor. But critics say there is nothing
funny about it, saying, it amounts to fraud against American voters.
CNN's Alex Marquardt obtained that exclusive statement from the doctor and he is following that story from New York. It's remarkable -- under what
circumstances -- why is the doctor coming out and saying this at this stage basically is the most -- is the question I have.
ALEXANDER MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, essentially because we asked him about it. We all remember when this statement came
out in December of 2015 decidedly Trumpian language, lots of eyebrows raised as to who had actually written it.
The doctor actually told CNN in 2016 when Trump was running for president that he had in fact written it. But I ran into Dr. Harold Bornstein
yesterday right outside his office on Park Avenue. We were following a story about a raid on his office.
He accuses two Trump staffers of raiding his office, which he now calls a humiliation after they took Trump's medical files and so he was brisling
about that and decided to tell us more about this letter that he had put out in 2015, putting a finer point on it and saying, verbatim, that he had
that letter dictated to him by Donald Trump.
He said I did not write that letter. Essentially saying that Trump had put the words in his mouth, told him what to put in that letter and that he
wrote it up. The way that this all came about was that they were crossing Central Park, he, Dr. Bornstein and his wife were in a car and they got a
call from Donald Trump.
And Trump was telling him what to put in this letter. Bornstein was telling him what you can and cannot say in this kind of letter. Got to the
office, wrote it up, signed it and hand it over to a Trump aide, and that's the letter that we have now come to know quite well.
And you can see there part of it reads, "If elected, Mr. Trump, I can state unequivocally, will be the healthiest individual ever elected to the
presidency." Hala, we have asked the White House for response. They have not responded.
GORANI: So, talk to us a little bit about what is the -- who is the doctor saying raided his office and what did they take? We're talking here about
Donald Trump's medical records.
MARQUARDT: We are and the timeline here is very important. So, this happened allegedly in February of 2017, so a month after President Trump
was inaugurated. What the White House says is what -- something that they -- they say they took possession of Trump's medical records, which they say
is very common practice when a president is elected.
Dr. Bornstein has a very different version of the facts. What he says is that at least two Trump aides raided his office. Those included Keith
Shiller, who is Trump's longtime bodyguard who then went to the White House with him, and someone named Allen Garton, who is a Trump attorney.
I asked him, I asked him. I asked Dr. Bornstein, was a crime committed? He says they stole them, referring to the medical records. Now, Hala, here
in the states, when you transfer medical records, you need a release. That's called a HIPAA release.
According to Dr. Bornstein, that was not signed. The White House was asked yesterday. They said it was standard operating procedure, but the way that
Dr. Bornstein describes it as going down was anything but.
He said they barged through the backdoor. They terrified the secretary and pushed aside the patient who was there. He says that he was humiliated, is
how he is feeling right now. How would you feel he said if you cared for someone for 35 years and they came and raided your office?
Now, Hala, he is alleging that a crime took place. We didn't get to asked him why he didn't report it to the police. We spoke with the NYPD. They
say that no police report was filed at that time -- Hala.
GORANI: Interesting. Alex Marquardt live with that. Thanks very much.
Some breaking news coming into the program on CNN, the controversial British data firm, Cambridge Analytica, it is shutting down. The company
has been under intense scrutiny in recent months after allegations that it misused the personal Facebook data of millions of people without their
[15:10:09] The firm just released a statement confirming their closure. It goes on to say, "Despite Cambridge Analytica's unwavering confidence that
its employees have acted ethically and lawfully the siege of media coverage has driven away virtually all of the company's customers and suppliers."
Let's go to New York where Brian Stelter joins us live with more on this breaking story, further blaming the media, which is interesting.
BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Essentially, yes, it had been under siege, and as a result, all of their customers, all of their
clients have gone away. This is not necessarily surprising that customers of left the company because it has been so tainted, so tarnished in recent
It's not just because of the media, however, it's because of what the former CEO was heard saying in his own words on a tape recorder by Channel
4. Now, of course, is an ongoing investigation in the U.K.
U.S. lawmakers have been curious about Cambridge Analytica as well. So, staffers in various cities were told in the past two hours in New York and
London and elsewhere to the company is shutting down right away that those staffers were sent home for the rest of the day.
Some staffers not sure what's going to happen next, but the company is saying they will pay severance and things like that. Think of the big
picture question here, Hala, to be a little bit skeptical is whether this company will reemerge in some new way, may be under a new name.
There's already been some talk about that a separate company was set up recently with some of the same directors and leaders of Cambridge
Analytica, so let's have that moment of skepticism to see what happens here to this company.
But clearly in this past month has roiled Cambridge Analytica so much scrutiny around its use or misuse of Facebook data and its efforts a create
psychographic profiles for elections in the U.S., U.K. and elsewhere.
GORANI: And who financed this Cambridge Analytica? I mean, in order to be able to track whether or not it morphs into something else, I guess you
need to follow the money.
STELTER: The company has been tied in the past to the Mercer family. These are U.S. billionaires with Republican Party connections and
conservative roots. These are the same -- some of the same family members that have supported Breitbart and Steve Bannon in the past, although, they
recently broke with Bannon.
You know you'll recall Steve Bannon, the president's former chief strategist here in the U.S. was formally a key part of Cambridge Analytica.
I believe that (inaudible) was chairman back in the 2014.
So, those are some of the roots of the company. I'm going to be curious to see what is happening with some of the data and other assets this company
has. And let's also keep in mind, this is better than just one company.
This issue about how voters are targeted through sophisticated data techniques. Cambridge Analytica has been at the spear of that, but others
are trying to do it as well. It is a moment of a lot of public and lawmaker attention around this issue. And Cambridge Analytica (inaudible)
as a result of that is having to shut down.
GORANI: And do we know for sure that it's destroyed all the data that it improperly collected from unknowing, unwitting users?
STELTER: The company has continued to claim that it did everything ethically and legally, but "The New York Times" and "Guardian" reports back
in March suggested otherwise. So, I would say that's uncertain, Hala.
I recently spoke with Christopher Wiley, who was the whistleblower in this case, who came forward and testified to "The Guardian" and "The New York
Times." You know, he's been speaking with a lot of authorities now.
Meaning he's spoken with British lawmakers, U.S. lawmakers. He's lined up to talk to the FBI and other law enforcement groups. He apparently has
more to share and so we do know there's an active investigation underway and at least two countries the Cambridge Analytica techniques.
GORANI: Yes, absolutely. We'll be following this story. Thanks very much, Brian Stelter with the very latest in our breaking news, Cambridge
Analytica is closing down.
Mr. Trump has something else going on today. He went down the street to the State Department in Washington for the first time in his presidency.
The occasion was the ceremonial swearing-in of his new secretary of state, Mike Pompeo.
Trump piled on praise for Pompeo who is seen as more in step with the president than his predecessor, Rex Tillerson. Pompeo promised to use
tough diplomacy when he has to, to advance U.S. interests abroad. Pompeo is taking over at the State Department as the U.S. prepares to make some
big decisions on Iran and North Korea.
Our global affairs correspondent, Elise Labott is there and she joins me now live. The Iran deadline is 10 days away, so Donald Trump has 10 days
to decide whether the U.S. walks away or not. Are we getting any clues from Pompeo about which direction he is leaning?
ELISE LABOTT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, he put out a statement yesterday, Hala, kind of saying about this Israeli evidence that
Prime Minister Netanyahu presented that it kind of echoes what the U.S. has known that Iran had been putting together a clandestine program.
But Mike Pompeo did say that the U.S. was still working with the Europeans to find a fix so that President Trump could stay in the deal. I mean,
look, I think that, you know, Mike Pompeo has been very hawkish on Iran.
But you know, where -- what you think depends on where you sit and now that he's coming in as the chief diplomat. He was already NATO meeting with
allies getting a sense of where the Europeans are.
[15:15:12] I think he's going to try and work until the last minute with the Europeans to see if there's something that could satisfy President
Trump staying in the deal because as we've all said and Pompeo and Trump himself, he's leaning towards pulling out.
GORANI: The Iranian ambassador to the U.K. spoke to CNN. He essentially said if the U.S. walks, the deal is dead. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HAMID BAEIDINEJAD, IRANIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE U.K.: When the United States is out of the deal, it means that there's no deal left. The consequence
would be that Iran would in fact -- would be ready to go back to the previous situation.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So, that means enriching uranium at a vast speed and capacity?
BAEIDINEJAD: It could be enriching uranium. It could be redefining or cooperation with the agency and some other activities that are under
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: So, there you heard it. I mean, the U.S. knows this, right? It walks, the deal is dead, Iran goes back to wherever it wants to go because
at that point is not bound by an agreement.
LABOTT: Well, and the Iranians have said, and I met with the Iranian foreign minister last week with a few other reporters that (inaudible) if
the U.S. pulls out of the deal, the reason why the deal is dead is because the U.S. would force other European countries and companies to not do
business with Iran.
So, Iran wouldn't be able to benefit from the deal and so they're saying there is a number of options on the table. They could restart the program.
They could as the ambassador said curtail cooperation with the IAEA.
But curiously enough, when secretary then-candidate Pompeo was doing his confirmation hearing, he was asked whether the U.S. thought that Iran would
race towards a nuclear weapon if the U.S. pulled out of the deal.
And he said no, I do not. So, the question is if the U.S. isn't worried about Iran racing towards a nuclear agreement, why would they pull out of
the deal? That's, you know, a couple of the circles they need to square, they need to circle before May 12th.
I think it's going to, you know, now that Secretary Pompeo was in and hearing from the allies, I think, you know, he is going to have to have a
much fuller grasp of all the consequences of pulling out of the deal.
GORANI: All right, Elise Labott at the State Department, thanks very much.
Still to come tonight, driving change just one day after a CNN Freedom Project Report on child labor in the Congo, a giant carmaker promises to
take action. We'll tell you what Daimler (ph) is doing.
And Kanye uncovered as the rapper stuns the world with comments about slavery. I'll talk to someone who recently got one-on-one with him in an
incredibly candid way. Stay with us as we speak to author and radio host, Charlemagne Tha God live on the show. We'll be right back.
GORANI: Well, just 24 hours ago on this program, we brought you a disturbing CNN Freedom Project investigation exposing child labor in the
cobalt industry in Africa. Well, we are already seeing a response.
The giant German based carmaker, Daimler, is promising to investigate its supply chain all the way down to the mines. A report showed how children
are used and sometimes abused in mining cobalt, which are, of course, is a is a product used in electric cars. Daimler says it already forbids child
labor but will work with 1,500 suppliers to raise its standards.
CNN's Nima Elbagir is the one who got this exclusive report. She went to the Democratic Republic of Congo to get in and she joins me now in the
studio. So, yesterday we were -- I was asking you, what can you do? Do you stop buying electric cars? What do you do now we are seeing a response
NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, what they are doing is precisely what we were discussing yesterday, which is they are
taking the due diligence they say all the way down to the mines. So, rather than rely on the Congolese government or rely on the Ministry of
Mining officials, which as we saw, is a pretty pointless endeavor.
They want to bring in their own team of experts. They want to work across all of their suppliers and it is extraordinary because not only is it an
acknowledgment of what we found on the ground, which is this system as it stands does not work.
There are no guarantees in this system. What they want to do is be able to look at the consume in the eye and say we guarantee you, we now know this
for a fact ourselves.
GORANI: They are talking about hundreds of suppliers here -- but I mean, I'm confused about how that -- how long, how vertical this chain is? So,
how do they get to each level of its -- to ensure and to promise to consumers who has looked at this no children are used or abused in this.
ELBAGIR: It's going to be difficult. It is absolutely going to be exhaustively difficult, but it's clearly something that they are now
committed. They've announced it publicly and its fantastic.
The issue with (inaudible) supply chains is that they are incredibly complicated and so you have tier-1 suppliers, tier-2 suppliers, and what
companies have done in the past is they kind of slightly hidden behind that and said, well, you know, (inaudible) one supplier is promising us this.
But obviously, we don't know what's happening further down the mine. This is going to be (inaudible) revolution for the entire industry. They are
now saying we want to be responsible for what happens (inaudible) down to the mines.
GORANI: And there are other carmakers, Tesla is one of them, for instance. Have we heard from others?
GORANI: Not yet. I guess, if they see Daimler and other corporations promised to look into this, perhaps they will as well. Is it just electric
cars that cobalt is used in?
ELBAGIR: No. Of course, it's also on mobile phones. It's in -- it is -- it changes the way that the technology works. It makes it much more user-
friendly. So, it is part of the reason smartphones are so light, and that's the unfortunate thing. It's the reason why electric cars can be so
GORANI: Because people will buy electric cars believe they are actually doing -- they are making the ethical choice.
ELBAGIR: Well, it's a value-laden choice. It's that you believe that this is reflective of your values as a person. So, you will go out and you will
think a little bit more deeply about what is behind this.
GORANI: All right. Nima Elbagir, thanks very much. That exclusive reporting already -- already pushing big corporations to make some big
promises. We'll have to follow --
ELBAGIR: We'll wait and see.
GORANI: Absolutely. Thank you, Nima.
Until now, China has held the distinction of being the only friend to North Korea, but as Pyongyang warms up to the South and apparently to the U.S.,
Beijing wants to make sure it does not shut out.
The foreign minister of China is on a two-day trip to Pyongyang. He praised the recent Korea summit and promised China would play a, quote,
"positive role" toward ridding Pyongyang of nuclear arms.
Now to the U.S., a military plane has crashed in the state of Georgia. Take a look at the images, you can see smoke coming from the crash site.
The Air Force says the plane is a WC-130, which is used for weather reconnaissance flights.
The spokesperson for the Puerto Rico National Guard confirmed that the plane had come from Puerto Rico but was in Georgia undergoing routine
maintenance. Officials say five people are on board and were not sure about their condition. Their conditions are still unknown.
And another incident on board a Southwest Airlines plane, this time a cracked window has forced an aircraft to make an unscheduled landing.
Passenger Linda Holly texted a picture of the broken window to her son. The flight from Chicago to Newark, New Jersey, was diverted to Cleveland.
Obviously, this is super scary. The FAA is investigating what caused the window to crack and this incident comes less than three weeks after an
engine on a Southwest plane failed and flying debris broke a window. A woman died after she was partially sucked out of the aircraft.
A lot more to come this evening on the program, you may have heard his comments, but what's really going on with Kanye West? Next, I speak to
someone who recently sat down with the rapper for an incredible tell-all interview. I'll asks him for his take on Kanye's comments on slavery.
And Mark, the matchmaker, how Facebook is looking to be more than just friends, coming up.
GORANI: From Hollywood to histories, tempers are flaring over some jaw- dropping remarks by Kanye West. They were made in an appearance on TMZ Live and there is one comment in particular that had everyone talking.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KANYE WEST, RAPPER: You hear about slavery for 400 years, for 400 years that's how like a choice, like you were there 400 years. You know, like --
it's like we are mentally imprisoned.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: The rapper was then confronted on the show by a TMZ staffer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VAN LATHAN, REPORTER, TMZ: I actually don't think you are taking anything. I think what you're doing right now is actually the absence of thought and
the reason why feel like that is because Kanye, you are entitled to your opinion, to believe whatever you want. There is fact in real rule world,
real life consequence behind everything that you just said.
The rest of us in society have to deal with these threats to our lives. We have to deal with the marginalization that has come from the 400 years of
slavery that you said for our people was a choice. Frankly, I'm disappointed, appalled, and brother, I am unbelievably hurt by the fact
that you have morphed into something, to me, that's not real.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Whatever you may think about Kanye West or his music, the man is one of the biggest and most influential celebrities on the planet right
now, and these comments could have serious impact.
Lisa Respers France is following the story from Atlanta. Lisa, what I found interesting is that on the BBC's website, the top story was Kanye
West. This isn't just in the U.S. that is making outlines.
LISA RESPERS FRANCE, CNN SENIOR ENTERTAINMENT WRITER: No, people are talking about this all around the world. I mean, really we are used to
Kanye being controversial, but he's crossed a big bridge here with what he said about slavery, and he started a lot of conversation about everything
from diversity in the workplace because Van Lathan was there to confront him in a way that maybe someone who wasn't African-American wouldn't be
able to do and wouldn't be heard by Kanye in that way.
To, you know, what is freedom of speech like, you know, be -- Kanye's whole thing is that this is all about free thought, that you should be able to
not have to go along with the masses, but some people feel like, you know, basically underplaying slavery is not about free thought. It's really about
GORANI: What's been the reaction in the African-American community, by and large?
FRANCE: People have flanked them. They had a whole hashtag, you know, about slavery being a choice, where some poke fund but people also were
just really, really hurt. I mean, has been revered in a lot of ways. The man is musical genius. He fought for years to come from being a producer
to be -- become one of the hottest rappers in the game. And for him to step out and not only, you know, a couple days ago, you know, reinforced
how much he loves Trump, which a lot of people had issues with. But then to come and say that slavery was a choice, even though he's trying to
backpedal and soften that a bit, people are really, really upset and a lot of people feel like it's a slap in the face of his -- to his African-
American fans who will support him through thick and thin.
GORANI: But do they see this as provocation mainly or what?
FRANCE: So initially, it started out with like, OK. This is Kanye. He's got new music coming out. He's always saying shocking things and people
felt that way about him declaring Trump being his brother and wearing his "Make America Great Again" hat. But then once you started talking about
slavery and once he got into that area, it became a whole different thing, because people felt like it's one thing to potentially be promoting your
album by trying to be shocking. And that's another thing, especially given what's going on right now in this country with race and how divisive things
are to say that people, you know, chose to be slaves for 400 years.
Now, of course, Kanye is saying that he meant about the mental part of being in slave that we, you know, need to rise above that and he's just
trying to spark new ideas and, of course that he knows that people didn't want to be slaves. And he quote a Harriet Tubman saying, you know, I freed
a thousand slaves. I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves. Unfortunately, a lot of people believe that that's not
even a (INAUDIBLE) or something quote. That's never been proved to actually -- yes, so.
GORANI: It was never proved -- it was never attributed to her. I mean, there is no proof that she in fact said that.
FRANCE: Not at all. I mean, he felt like that backed up what he's saying that, you know, people just didn't realize they were in slave, but he
picked the wrong quote.
GORANI: Yes. Lisa Respers France, thanks so much. Great talking to you.
FRANCE: Thank you.
GORANI: As the world gets to grips with those shocking comments, another high profile interview with Kanye West was released. In it, the rapper
says Barack Obama owes him an apology. It was conducted by the author of Black Privilege and radio host, Charlamagne Tha God who joins me now from
New York. Thanks for being with us.
LENARD "CHARLAMAGNE THA GOD" MCKELVEY, RADIO PRESENTER: Hey, same time --
GORANI: So tell the world. I was just telling -- I was just telling our reporter that on the BBC, the website, the top rated story is about Kanye
and his slavery comments. So everyone around the world is just saying, what is - what's going on here with him? What do you make of those
MCKELVEY: Yes. I mean, it's unbelievable to me the social and cultural influence that Kanye West has. Of course we know he has cultural influence
as far as his team in his concern, you know, fashion, sneakers of concern. But the fact that he has so much influence socially is like -- mindboggling
to me. Unbelievable.
GORANI: Does he believe his words or is he just trying to sell records and trying to be provocative?
MCKELVEY: I don't think he's trying to sell records. I don't think he's trying to be provocative. I just think that he's misinformed. I think
he's ignorant. That is the truth to the matter. I think that -- he feels things and he's very impulsive and I think that he has -- he has contexts
in his mind for what he wants to say, but it doesn't come out like that when it leaves his mouth, because slavery was not a choice, slavery was a
GORANI: You conducted a two-and-a-half-hour interview with him. He spoke about everything, pretty candidly. Everything from his mental health to
why he likes Donald Trump. And actually, in fact, I want our viewers to watch a clip from your interview. He's talking in it about the president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KANYE WEST, AMERICAN RAPPER: Before we could put all the trees and add the beauty, we got to break some things. If you keep on getting just the
beauty, just the perfect thing, just Obama walk through the hallway -- his feet don't even touch the floor, he's just floating -- you barely
headshaking and all that, you know what I mean? You get all of these images. This is what it is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: So again, this is something that raise a lot of eyebrows all over the world, internationally. Why would a black rapper express any kind of
support for Donald Trump after he's made some pretty controversial statements in the past?
MCKELVEY: Yes. I mean, I think that Kanye is not aware of Trump's policies. I don't think he's aware of Trump's ideology. I don't think
he's aware of how Trump is oppressing and marginalizing a lot of people in this country. I think that he's just intrigued by the fact that Donald
Trump reminds him of himself just by being a person that is outspoken and will say whatever they want, when they want to say it, the unorthodox way
that Donald Trump has become president. I think that's what Kanye is intrigued by. But I'm not here to celebrate style when it comes to a
president. I want to celebrate substance and I think Donald Trump lacks a lot of substance. So, you're right. That is the question that all of us
are asking. Why is somebody like Kanye West standing next to somebody a lot of us considered a racist bigot?
[15:35:24] GORANI: You spoke to Kanye West after the TMZ appearance?
GORANI: And what did you tell him?
MCKELVEY: I told him that I thought his appearance was whack. I thought it was trash. I thought it was just a lot of negative energy. Even I like
to understand what you meant to say or what he was trying to say, that's not the point. What you actually say was dangerous and it was harmful.
I'm reading articles where certain hate groups are applauding his words. That should let you know that you're on the wrong side of history with this
one. And I think that, you know -- I honestly think Kanye should apologize. People missed in the TMZ appearance that he actually apologized
for wearing the hat. He apologized for hurting the black community and I think that he needs to apologize again. Because see the thing what Kanye
that I find so interesting is that like he's a fashion guy, right? So you design clothes. So whenever you see somebody cutting up fabric, they don't
just start cutting the fabric. They measure the fabric, they measure twice so they only got to cut once. And I told Kanye, man, that's what you have
to start doing with your thoughts. You have to start measuring your thoughts twice in order to cut once.
GORANI: How did he respond?
MCKELVEY: Kanye always listens. That's what the -- that's what the frustrating part about it is like he listens. He takes it in. But, you
know, what he does with that information is on him, but it's not like -- he's not like pushing back. He's listening. We're having a conversation
about it. Like he doesn't want to hurt anybody. That's the other sad part, like none of this has rooted in hate. He actually does want to bring
people together and he does want to love everybody. The problem I have with that is us is black people, we're the ones that always being told we
got to love everybody and we got to, you know, embrace our presence and show love to our presence and forgive our presence. I'm not with that. I
haven't gotten to that point in my life. I go to therapy every week, but I haven't gotten to that point where I'm just going to be love the people
that I know are out to harm me and mind.
GORANI: How much influence does he have with the African-American community in the U.S., Kanye West? Is he still a major cultural influence?
MCKELVEY: I mean, that's a broad question. African-American, black people, we're not a monolithic people, so I'm sure he does have a cult like
following amongst some people. I'm sure he does have major influence on some people and I'm sure the other people who don't give a damn what Kanye
West is talking about. You know what I'm saying?
GORANI: If I should -- I should rephrase that. What I meant to ask was, will his comments on slavery - I mean, how much -- it is having a major
impact and we are seeing major reaction. So he -- his words matter is what I'm saying.
MCKELVEY: Yes, words do matter, because when you get on television and you say stuff like that like slavery was a choice, like, come on, man. Slavery
is not a choice. Nobody was in -- nobody enrolled to be a part of slavery. There's no slave fire you. OK. You don't register to be a slave. So we
know that wasn't a choice, like slavery was a crime. So it's like, yes. That hurts to hear him say that, because people think he's into sunken
place and they feel like he's so far removed from the black community and so disconnected from the black community. And when you get on platforms
like TMZ and you spew that kind of rhetoric, it's like, bro, who are you? Where are you right now? You need to come home. Like you need to walk
through the streets of Chicago and breathe some of that fresh air. Get connected with your people again, man, because that is some outright
rhetoric right there.
GORANI: And some people have questioned his mental -- how he's doing mentally. He talked to you about that in your really long great interview.
What did he say?
MCKELVEY: I mean, yes. I mean, clearly he's suffering from some type of mental illness and he even said in the interview that he's on meds and he's
not doing therapy. He says the world is his therapy. I recommend that he should go see a therapist. But I think that's the other issue that a lot
of people aren't paying attention to. Maybe that -- maybe things aren't are right up there. So maybe the brother need some help. And maybe some
of the things that he's saying really shouldn't be taken that serious. But if he's dealing with some mental illness, he shouldn't be out there just
misusing his platform, you know what I'm saying? Like I don't want misinformed people having influence. And he does have a lot of influence.
He's like a baby with a big gun.
GORANI: Well, Charlamagne Tha God, thanks so much for joining us. And this has been just a fascinating conversation to have with our viewers all
over the world, because it's just -- it's just been a story of such interest that resonated in many parts. Thanks so much for joining us.
Really appreciate your time today.
[15:40:07] MCKELVEY: Thank you for having me.
GORANI: All right. And check out our Facebook page. We'll be posting this interview online, facebook.com/halagoranicnn and check me out,
@halagorani on Twitter.
Well, speaking of Facebook, it wants to help you find love. The social media giant has announced that it's getting into the online dating game.
The news and shares of other dating services like Match plummeting. Facebook CEO, Mark Zuckerberg laid out his vision for the product.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK ZUCKERBERG, CEO, FACEBOOK: This is going to be for building real long term relationships. All right. Not just hookups. It's going to be in the
Facebook app, but it's totally optional. Just opt in, if you want, you can make a dating profile and I know a lot of you going to have questions about
this, so I want to be clear that we have designed this with privacy and safety in mind from the beginning.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Well, Mark Zuckerberg there making a point of addressing privacy concerns. All of this comes obviously just weeks after massive data
privacy breach for the company.
Let's go to New York where Paul La Monica joins me now live with more details about this new feature. So, how does it work? I mean, do you
obvious -- how does it work? Is it free? Do you have to opt in? How do people contact you?
PAUL LA MONICA, CNNMONEY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it is free, Hala, that is a hallmark of Facebook services. They have really wanted and resisting calls
to do products they have to charge -- get charged to use it and they're going to be selling ads, of course, and what is important here is that this
is not for people that you already know. Zuckerberg went out of his way to say that Facebook is going to try and match you with people that you may
not have met yet, because this is going to be for people outside of your network or friends and family.
GORANI: And so privacy concerns, obviously, at the forefront of everyone's mind right now.
LA MONICA: Yes. Zuckerberg had to address that in light of the Cambridge Analytica data scandal or former Cambridge Analytica, as one might say now
that they just announced they're going to be hosting down amazingly enough. I think Zuckerberg realizes that, yes, Facebook is going to make money off
this by selling ads and that means that people, advertisers are going to have access to data about users in an aggregate basis and of course that is
what worries a lot of people. But Facebook makes money from ad revenue and that's not going to change anytime soon. So I think Zuckerberg just has to
stress that this is still going to be a network where your data is secure and private and that you can trust Facebook still.
GORANI: And when does this launch?
LA MONICA: They were really reluctant to give too much in the way of details. This is going to be coming soon, but they didn't give a -- to my
best of my knowledge a firm date on when it's actually coming out. There's still are a lot of details we're waiting to hear about exactly what this
product is going to look like. But shares of Match.com plunge more than 20 percent yesterday. They're on Tinder, OkCupid, as well as Match. So
investors in that coming in clearly, you're not waiting for the service to actually launch. They're nervous right now.
GORANI: OK. Paul La Monica, thanks very much. Well, nobody can beat Facebook's user -- I guess, user numbers here.
Still to come tonight, a shakeup in Donald Trump's legal team could signal a big change in strategy when it comes to the Russia investigation. We'll
[15:45:33] GORANI: Let's return now to our top story. Just hours after we learned that Special Counsel Robert Mueller has considered forcing Donald
Trump to testify in the Russia investigation, the White House is announcing a huge shakeup in its legal team. Ty Cobb on the left who supports
cooperation with the probe is leaving. His replacement is on the right, his name Emmet Flood. He represented then President Bill Clinton during
his impeachment proceedings. It seems pretty clear a change of strategy is in the works, let's bring in CNN legal analyst, Joey Jackson. So, what do
you make of this change, Joey?
JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I make bit that things are heating up in Washington. We certainly know that Mueller is continuing his probe as a
result of that, you need the most experienced people around you. You need people with good judgment. You need people with relationships, ones that
know the process and ones that, you know, certainly have a winning strategy. And as a result of that, I think the president certainly knows
and understands that hiring this particular lawyer certainly won't hurt given his track record and certainly giving his involvement with Clinton
during the impeachment proceedings.
GORANI: Another one of our legal analyst who knows Emmet Flood personally, he tweeted a striking prediction, Norm Eisen wrote, "Fasten your seatbelts,
folks. It's war. I know Emmet. In fact, he briefed me during the Bush to Obama transition when I was coming in as special counsel and he was headed
out. He's one of the very best. This will be a fight for the ages."
So if Emmet Flood representing the president is going to turn this into a fight, a real fight, what form might it take?
JACKSON: You know, I think the first what we're seeing now is a negotiation as to whether or not Trump should testify. I'm certainly one
that believes he should not go anywhere near Mueller or his team. I know for questions have been linked that really probe into the president's state
of mind and what he meant, when he fired people and was there collusion. He should stay certainly away from that. Now, we're onto discussions about
whether he'll be subpoenaed to testify before the grand jury, if he does and that happen, I would say Mr. President, take the Fifth. Don't say a
word. And so I think it's shaping up to be a real legal battle that has significant consequences that certainly could end unfavorably for the
president of the United States.
GORANI: But he doesn't seem like he knows how -- I mean, it doesn't seem like he's either kind of person to take the Fifth. Let's just put it that
way. I mean, he even tweets out his interventions, plainly. At some point, I will have no choice but to get involved, he tweets. I mean, if
this were a secret note, somebody had unearth, it would be considered as some sort of uncover plan to obstruct the investigation, but he's tweeting
it. So what do we make of this legally?
JACKSON: You know, it is amazing and I was one that believed that bringing on Rudy Giuliani a couple of weeks ago would be significant and as much as
he is a person who certainly understands the process. He knows the players and he's a chief strategist. And someone who perhaps the president would
listen to because it appears as though he has a listening issue. He certainly has a nightmare of a client and make no mistake about it, Hala,
much of the reason we're here is because of the prior statements the president has made and based upon those past statement, he's really giving
fuel to the team. But there's a big difference between coming on and lying in front of cameras and waxing poetic and puffing and giving inconsistent
remarks and saying what you want and sitting down before a grand jury, whether it's by close circuit TV as Clinton did in '98, or whether it's
sitting actually in a grand jury panel, when you're under oath, different facts, different issues, different circumstances and different
consequences. And so although he tweets and says what he wants to say, Hala, I'm not sure that that would be the case in the event he gets into
that room, plead the Fifth, is all I would have to advice.
GORANI: That would be your legal advice. Joey, Jackson, thanks so much. Appreciate it.
More to come including self-parking cars and drones that can follow humans. But when does all of this technology go from smart to scary or is it scary
already? Actually. We'll be right back.
[15:50:06] GORANI: Well, robots are not new but the technology behind them is getting a lot smarter. In fact, artificial intelligence had become a
part of our daily lives. It's all over the place. It's in our cars, in our phones. But some warned that it could soon play a far more sinister
role. Erin McLaughlin went to a Swiss lab to find out more.
ERIN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: In the picturesque Swiss town of Lugano, scientist Juergen Schmidhuber works toward revolution. If
he's successful, the world will never be the same.
JUERGEN SCHMIDHUBER, COMPUTER SCIENTIST: All of this is going to be much more than just another industrial revolution. First, it's going to be
something that transcends humankind itself and even biology itself.
MCLAUGHLIN: Schmidhuber is an AI pioneer. His goal, to create artificial intelligence radically smarter than humans. He's helped develop the
algorithms to define the field as we know it now. Artificial intelligence or AI is what makes Siri respond to your commands.
SIRI, AUTOMATED VOICE: Here is what I found.
MCLAUGHLIN: And enables Google to translate.
MCLAUGHLIN: What do we have here? Inside Schmidhuber's labs, AI pushes beyond that. Cars teach themselves to park.
SCHMIDHUBER: When you now move your head, still you're going to follow and you can direct it.
MCLAUGHLIN: Drones learn to follow humans.
I go forward. I go backward.
MCLAUGHLIN: AI even teaches itself to run.
SCHMIDHUBER: The important thing is, there's no teacher and what you see there, it's trying all kinds of things. In the beginning it's a total
failure. And the goal is just to maximize the distance covered.
MCLAUGHLIN: The next step, developing robots which can teach themselves to perform simple tasks. Still, none of this comes close to super
SCHMIDHUBER: These are mobile platforms.
MCLAUGHLIN: Schmidhuber believes it can be achieved in mere decades.
So there are those who are skeptical, who say that actually AI could very well enter another sort of deep freeze period, where nothing happens.
SCHMIDHUBER: At the moment, I don't see that as a possibility at all because all the tendency is that I observe in my own lab, in other labs,
the general hardware acceleration tell me another story.
MCLAUGHLIN: Other leaders in the field agree. Nick Bostrom is the director of the Future of Humanity Institute at Oxford University.
NICK BOSTROM, DIRECTOR OF FUTURE OF HUMANITY INSTITUTE, OXFORD UNIVERSITY: I think it will affect all aspects of our lives, all segments of the
MCLAUGHLIN: He worries not enough is being done to prepare for the potential dangers.
MCLAUGHLIN: Given your research, given everything you know so far, are you optimistic about the future of humanity?
BOSTROM: I think this transition to the machine super intelligence era will be associated with some significant risk, including these existential
risks of human extinction and such. But on the other side, and this doesn't get as much sort of air time, but I think there is this enormous
MCLAUGHLIN: Schmidhuber says he's confident the enormous upside will prevail. But he admits it's like playing with fire.
SCHMIDHUBER: We have to be aware of the potential dangers of AI but we are not going to stop the further development of AI because the pros outweigh
the cons so much.
MCLAUGHLIN: It may be unpredictable but Schmidhuber and others agree, when it comes to AI, the match has been struck.
Erin McLaughlin, CNN, Lugano, Switzerland.
GORANI: Whatever risks the technology of tomorrow may hold, there are plenty of ways today's tech could enhance our lives like the grand use of
augmented reality in the entertainment world. Now, it's something that you too has been trying to pioneer. Bono and The Edge sat down with our Lori
[15:55:04] LORI SIEGEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Can you explain to me the thinking behind using augmented reality to kick off the show?
BONO, IRISH SINGER AND SONGWRITER: Total emerging is our gig. And I guess AR just helps me to use really make the -- amplify the sounds so that it
gets across in a more clear direct potent way. So it's -- if it doesn't serve the song, we would not consider it.
You'll see that this kind of image we have of consciousness was like this big iceberg and then it starts to melt. And we have compact that
experience because of battery life. And we want to do some intimacies. We want to this very raw, naked version of the singer. I mean, we tend to use
my story on YouTube because I'm the singer. It could be anybody's story in general.
SIEGEL: I don't know what it's like to be you guys on stage and looking out at a thousand, gazillion screens, right? But I'm sure that's
complicated, because you want people be present for you, but now --
THE EDGE: We're on the back, when they help up the laptops and gets a little over the top.
BONO: You remember the - it's a very unsound thing to think the people should be interested in your most private thoughts. Through a bunch of
megalomaniacs, and we want people with complete intention, and we get really cross if somebody goes to the bathroom during one of our sentence.
So I think just to try and have fun with this potential for distraction and make the phone part of the actual experience on the show. That was --
that's part of the appeal of using AR.
GORANI: Well, there you have it, Lori Siegel with Bono, artificial intelligence, augmented reality, the future of technology whether it's
dangerous to the human race. Frankly, I just think, just take the batteries out at this point, we'll all safe.
Thanks for watching tonight. We'll have a lot more ahead. I'm Hala Gorani. We'll have obviously the very latest on the shakeup in Donald
Trump's legal team and what it means for the Mueller investigation into possible Russian interference in the 2016 campaign and all the big business
news headlines on "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" that is coming up next, after a quick break. See you tomorrow.