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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield

Serial Killer`s Burial Site, Six Missing Girls May Be Buried In Site; Shocking Twist, Missing Husband, Gators Didn`t Eat Man, Wife Killed Him; 69-Year-Old Arthur Ream Who Is Behind Bars For Killing His Son`s Girlfriend, Who Was 13 Is Now Suspect Of Killing Three Or Four Women; A Man Goes Out For Duck Hunting And Disappeared. Aired 6-8p ET

Aired May 09, 2018 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:00] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HOST, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE: Good evening, everyone, I`m Ashleigh Banfield, welcome to Crime and Justice.

Tonight, up to six families could get justice of their own after decades of torment. Police tearing up a Michigan farm looking for the bodies of

several teenage girls, girls who went missing in the 1970s and the 1980s. CNN`s Ryan Young, has been covering their search. And the man who just may

have put those women there, what do we know, Ryan?

RYAN YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Ashleigh, he actually led police to this site 10 years ago when he was convicted of killing his son`s teenage

girlfriend back in 1986. But now police say, this land could be a burial site for four of six other girls he killed and burying their bodies may not

be all that he did to them.

BANFIELD: All right. Ryan, we`ll come out to you live in a moment.

Also, another murder suspect is behind bars tonight, but this one is a widow, and her long dead husband is her alleged victim. For years they

thought he went missing while hunting, attacked and eaten by a gator in Florida. This is not a joke. Kyle Peltz has been tracking the twists and

turns on this one. Kyle, why did they arrest his wife after all these years?

KYLE PELTZ, CRIME AND JUSTICE PRODUCER: That is right. It was a surprise arrest. While she was at work. But wait until you hear who she married

after her husband disappeared and how a life insurance policy might just be involved?

BANFIELD: Always say follow the money. All right. Kyle, we`ll check in with you on that one in a moment.

Also, horrifying new details about the abuse that these two beautiful little sisters endured before their mom reportedly killed them in their

sleep.

Then later on the grandfather who managed to take down an armed robbery suspect on the run when the police officers themselves didn`t seem to be

able to trip him up. Did a hell of a job himself.

First, I want to get that crucial question to you, a crucial question I really wish, I didn`t have to ask, what is in the water in Michigan?

Because that is where two different murders, already serving life in prison for killing young women, are suddenly suspected of far worse crimes.

47-year-old Jeffrey Willis is the man who killed a beautiful jogger four years ago, but now prosecutors are saying, he made a young gas station

clerk disappear too just one year before. And that isn`t all. They also say he kidnapped a 16-year-old girl back in 2016. She escaped, being

locked in his van after she`d been held at gunpoint. And good thing she did, because Police say inside that sinister van they found syringes,

Viagra, sex toys and restraining rods. And when they searched his house they reportedly found child porn and videos of women bound and being raped.

But if you think that is the top story in Michigan tonight, you would be wrong.

Jeffrey Willis`s story pales in comparison to the tale of 69-year-old Arthur Ream. Ream is the man who tricked his son`s 13-year-old girlfriend

into meeting him at a Dairy Queen, but then killed her and buried her body out in the woods. That happened back in 1986. And that child was Cindy

Zarzycki. It would take almost two decades to convict him.

And when they did, Ream was already serving a 15 year sentence for molesting a child, of course. And the only thing is, they let him out of

prison, not for freedom. Instead, to lead detectives to Cindy`s grave site. And it is at that same grave site, in a private field, north of

Detroit, where the FBI has now come in and is searching for between four to six other girls, other girls who went missing as teenagers at the same time

Cindy did, back in the `70s and the `80s. Authorities think that Arthur Ream killed those girls too.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNIE GUNACA, WITNESS: I was the last person to see Kim alive before she disappeared, and I know that something horrible happened to her that night.

She never, ever would have left her sisters and her grandmother worrying about her.

Never in my mind did I ever believe that she ran away. Not for one second.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: And today, thanks to information from the suspect himself, along with some information from his fellow inmates, apparently he likes to talk

with, the investigators have dug up something promising.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What have you found? Have you found anything on this land?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. But I`m not going to comment on what we found. But what we did found -- what we have found -- makes us very cautiously

optimistic.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something has been found, but not remains? Is that what you were saying?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: True, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You found something to connect this land to the girls?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Joining me now, CNN national correspondent, Ryan Young, also on the phone, Tim Kohler, he is the former attorney for Arthur Ream.

[18:05:04] Joseph Scott Morgan is with me as well. He is a certified death investigator, he is also a professor of forensics at Jacksonville State

University. That will come in handy, considering the age of these corpses, if these corpses turn up, and defense attorney, Troy Slaten is with me as

well.

First to you, Ryan Young, and to the news that is breaking today of dozens of detectives out in a very lonely, overgrown field that is now more of a

forest, searching acres and acres and acres for children who`ve been dead for years. Take me there and tell me what`s happening at this moment.

YOUNG: Ashleigh, when you think about this tough moments in Michigan, as family and friends stood by for a third day hoping that after nearly 40

years, they will find answers. This is FBI, multiple police agencies, continued to dig through the area. Of course, about 30 miles north of

Detroit, they`re systematically searching for those six girls ranging in age from 12 to 16.

Now, of course, Arthur Ream is currently serving a life sentence after being convicted of first degree murder in 2008 of 13-year-old Cindy

Zarzycki, who disappeared in 1986. Now, at the news conference, investigators were talking about how Ream was bragging to other inmates,

and now because of that they`ve been able to go back out to this site, they waited for the ground to thaw just a little bit, so they could go out there

and start excavating the area, and maybe find some of these remains for these young girls, whose families obviously are torn up about this, finally

years later, investigators get a chance to go out there.

Now, look, back in 2008 he showed them where Cindy Zarzycki`s body was. This time he is not talking. He is not helping them find these other

possible six females who disappeared.

BANFIELD: And doesn`t that, Ryan, always fascinates me. I don`t have to tell you. You`ve covered enough of these crimes to know, it is always

fascinating when a prisoner gives up some goods. It`s usually for a deal. It is usually for something in your sentencing. For this guy, not a chance

though. Murder is life, no matter how you slice it. But maybe the way your life is led behind bars, because the Michigan Department of

Corrections, can do a thing or two to make your life a little better.

Sometimes it`s your work detail, sometimes it is who you`re housed with, and sometimes it is even where you`re housed. And maybe that is the reason

he gave up that detail. But Ryan, what`s so fascinating, is these others. I want to play, if I can, for our audience, the Warren Police Commissioner,

Bill Dwyer who also said there were a few other things, not just what the killer said to them or said to other inmates, a few other things about the

way he conducts himself and the crimes himself that led them there. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL DWYER, WARREN POLICE COMMISSIONER: We do have general probable cause to believe that this is a grave site, no question about it, that Kimberly

King and other young female victims who were murdered are buried here. The suspect in this case also did brag about murdering four to six people to

the inmates where he is being housed. He did -- was interviewed several times by detectives from the Warren Police Department. He did, in fact,

flunk, fail a polygraph test.

We suspect there were four to six girls that could be victims here. One victim was -- that we`re looking at that possibly could be here was the

young girl that was last seen at the (inaudible) in the City of Canton. And it fits the profile. It fits, you know his M.O. And that is why

they`re part of this. Because looking at the relationship between the first victims that was found here by the East Point Police Department,

everything that happened with these other victims fits the profile of our suspect. No relationship between the other victims in this case, but the

way they were picked up, how they were picked up, where they were at. It all gels together, I mean, hitchhiking, so on and so forth, shopping, going

from point a to point b.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Ryan, you might be interested, if you already know this, our viewers may not. Today is Mr. Ream`s birthday. So I`m sure he is

celebrating a little differently than the rest of us celebrate. When you`re behind bars you don`t really get the fanciest cake in town. I am

curious about one thing, Ryan, I don`t even know if the public has this information. But it is so strange that Cindy Zarzycki went missing in `86,

1986. He wasn`t convicted until almost, you know, two decades later, 2008. How did it take so long, and how did they ultimately get him on this crime?

YOUNG: Well, you know what`s interesting about this, prior to his conviction, Ream also served time for a child sex offense in 1975. And

then again in 1998. It was when he was already in jail that you see him sitting down with an investigator. In fact, they have video of him talking

to investigators where he is pretty open about where they could find this body. And then again like, I said, he drew a map and then eventually was

taken out of prison to take them to the site.

[18:10:01] So you can only imagine that maybe they`re working that systematic area with those cadaver dogs that kind of work their way back.

But this is because, he was bragging to those inmates. But again, he is not talking to investigators this time, not sure why after he is serving so

much time anyway. And he feels comfortable bragging. In fact, one of the investigators said (inaudible) birthday.

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: Like did he brag way back in `08. And that is why they got to the Cindy Zarzycki murder and got him, or did he brag now and that is why

they`re going back to Cindy`s grave? It is like because he is bragging about more women being buried there. Is it a bunch of bragging, or is

there something we don`t know?

YOUNG: Well, you know, that is what we would love to ask investigators about that point. Obviously some of it they weren`t sharing all the way

with us today, but when he was detailing the four to six other women that he may have killed, that obviously ties together with the missing women in

this area.

You can obviously understand why this community is shaken by these facts and the fact that he was out for a little while. I mean, the first offense

in 1975, and then getting convicted again in 1998, it gives you a pattern of time where he was available to do all these crimes.

BANFIELD: All these sex charges too, 1975, 1998. Just really -- one of the most sinister characters when you look at his background, and now what

you know he is guilty of. You know, if you`re a victim of crime, and you`re watching tonight, I don`t need to explain this to you. But to

people who have never been victims of crime, this stuff doesn`t go away. When you lose someone you love, say like your sister, it never leaves you.

The decades can go by, but it never leaves you. And if you need any evidence of that, Kimberly King, who just might be one of the bodies

they`re digging for in that field right now, her sister Konnie had this to say about the crime her family`s lived through.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KONNIE, VICTIM`S SISTER: It looks like it may bring a great deal of hope to a lot of families. So I think this is very important not just for us,

but for many families.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: You know, a lot of those families will be waiting to find out if there is this kind of closure and then they will all say the same thing,

closure is sort of an ephemeral thing. You can say its closure. There is no such thing as true closure for these families.

If I can ask you a couple of questions, Tim Kohler, as Arthur Ream`s defense attorney, I know that you came out of the case as a quarter

appointed attorney, you don`t get to choose your clients, when you are a quarter appointed attorney, but I do want to ask you as one of the only

people who spent a lot of time with him, what was he like?

TIM KOHLER, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR ARTHUR REAM: Well, I didn`t spend a lot of time with him only because of the amount of discovery and the amount of

preparation that I had to do. But the time that I spoke with him and was with him while he was in custody, and that was only a couple times in our

preparation, because of the nature of the crime, murder, that was the single count, I knew that my defense would be reviewing facts and not so

much what he was going to say, because I never anticipated him testifying.

So to talk to him about it, I really didn`t do a lot. And sometimes it`s not important for me to talk to them, because I don`t want to learn what he

sometimes knows, because it may affect my defense and my vigilant defense. So I didn`t spend a whole lot of time. Certainly the time that I did spend

with him, he was a tough read in a sense. He really never displayed the kind of character that was really going on inside him.

Sometimes his quietness, sometimes his refusal, and sometimes the way in which he answered questions of other people that I read and heard in my

discovery reviews. It was a different sort of person. I think also that character trait that he had led to some of the dislike that probably rang

throughout the court.

BANFIELD: Which character trait is that? Which character trait that did led to the dislike in the courtroom? As a jury, you know, that matters,

whether you like that defendant or not, that can weigh on you when you`re choosing to take his life away from him. There`s no death penalty for him.

But taking his freedom away for life, what kind of trait are you talking about?

KOHLER: I think he had kind of a sinister -- and that word has been given to me. It`s not a word that I chose. But it`s a word that has been

described by those who were actively involved in the case at the time, whether that they were news reporters, officers, OIC, Mac, the detective

that really did the foot work that led to his being brought into the court system and being charged with these offenses.

[18:15:00] BANFIELD: Did you believe him, by the way? Can I ask you, Tim, did you believe him, when he said I`ll lead you to her body, but I -- and I

was there when she died, but he didn`t cop to the killing. Did you believe that he didn`t kill her after all those admissions?

KOHLER: The jury said that he did. So that is important. Whether or not I believe it or not I don`t think is important, because I`m not hired to

believe or disbelieve my client. I`m hired to represent him and make sure that he gets a fair and that justice is served and that his voice, whatever

that may be, whether or not he actually speaks during the trial or not. Let me ask this. You asked about his -- whether or not I thought he was

jumpy. In my conversations with him, I never asked him, I didn`t want to know, and he certainly never told me.

BANFIELD: And that makes sense. I have heard that. Listen, you`re a lawyer, you`ve got a job to do. But there`s another job that is coming.

Joseph Scott Morgan, if they unearth between four to six bodies in that field, decades after they died, what can they determine in terms of

critical evidence, for any kind of prosecution that may come down the pike? He is serving life, but that doesn`t mean there may not be a prosecution,

it doesn`t mean they don`t at least hold that evidence. What are the chances they will get anything worthwhile, Joseph?

JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, PROFESSOR OF FORENSIC, JACKSONVILLE STATE UNIVERSITY: Well, it`s important to understand Ashleigh that these might not be the

only cases this guy is involved with. What`s curious about this is how did he go about placing them in the ground? Are they comingled, that means

layered in there on top of one another, are we dealing with multiple graves? That is one of the things that the investigators are looking at

right now. It`s still possible to collect evidence out of here, as well as to determine what kinds of injuries these four girls may have sustained,

particularly as it involves head injuries, things like gunshot wounds, blows to the head, this sort of thing.

BANFIELD: And, of course, the dental records could be critical in terms of identification and DNA et cetera. I`m going to have to leave it there.

But that is not to say I`m done with this story. 45 minutes from now, a little less in fact for 45 minutes now, you are going to hear from the

suspect himself. Because he spoke. He said a couple of things in an interrogation room that are absolutely jaw droopingly fascinating. I am

going to play that just at the top of the hour. Make sure you come back at 7:00 for our second hour.

In the meantime, for 17 years, a woman named Denise Williams had been portraying the part of grieving widow, whose husband seemed to have died in

a tragic hunting accident. Maybe even having been eaten by Florida alligators. But yesterday, as you can probably guess by the mug shot, all

that changed.

[18:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Mike and Denise Williams were high school sweethearts, and on December 16th in 2000, they were going to celebrate their sixth anniversary

with a really nice dinner. Like who wouldn`t, right? But Mike decided instead to go duck hunting first. And he set out early in the morning for

the lake. And Mike never came home. In fact, Mike`s body didn`t even turn up for 17 years.

The Florida couple`s friends and their neighbors, well, they all figured it was probably just a real tragic drowning while he was out duck hunting.

Right? And that is kind of where the police landed on this story too. In fact, the word kind of started to circulate, most people figured he`d

actually been eaten by an alligator, no lie.

And then something happened. Mike`s body turned up. It turned up because it was dug up. It was six feet under in a bunch of muck near a boat

landing. And Mike had been shot. So he didn`t drown, and he sure didn`t bury himself. And now that sweetheart of his has a mug shot, and she is in

jail, and she is accused of plotting to kill her husband for months. And not just her.

The indictment says she did this with the man she went on to marry. That would be Mike`s best friend Brian. Brian, Brian. The same Brian who is

said to have sold Mike a million dollar life insurance policy just before he died.

That is not a good set of facts. Not if you`re Brian. Not if you`re Denise. Joining me now, Ana Garcia, she is a correspondent for "Crime

Watch Daily," she is been covering this story since before that most of us even heard anything about it. And also joining me, is Ethan Way, Denise

Williams` attorney, got some great questions for Ethan. But I`m going to begin with you, Anna, if I can, how did we get to the body, six feet under,

buried in the muck?

[18:25:06] ANA GARCIA, CORRESPONDENT, CRIME WATCH DAILY: Yes, because he certainly didn`t get himself there. We have a theory at "Crime Watch

Daily," because all of this happened at a very interesting time. I`m going to roll it back two years. And we started investigating Brian and Denise,

his then wife, because we were looking into this very mysterious disappearance. So we start knocking on doors and we are staking out of the

best friend`s house, we are staking out his office, we are staking out Denise, we finally got to Denise and she took off in a car.

And right after this, when we leave town, this explodes like crazy. Brian gets arrested for trying to kidnap Denise. OK? And this is our theory at

"Crime Watch Daily" based on what we`ve been told, it was when Denise was telling investigators where exactly Brian had taken her during this

kidnapping escapade that there was something about that area that somehow revealed, left a clue, about where her poor husband might be buried.

So they start digging up this swamp. They had cadaver dogs, 30 of them. They had -- I mean, we`re talking about swamp muck. This was not easy. It

was about a week. They were about ready to give up, because they couldn`t find anything and then bam, they found a body. 98 percent preserved. They

did the DNA test --

BANFIELD: Wait. Wait. Wait, go back, 98 percent preserved?

GARCIA: Yes.

BANFIELD: That is 17 years ago this man died.

GARCIA: Yes, unbelievable. And his body, Ashleigh, would tell investigators everything they needed to know about how he died. He was

shot.

BANFIELD: You`ve got to be kidding me. 98 percent. He was in muck. He was in muck.

GARCIA: He was preserved. Hey, come on, we use mud on our faces, right?

BANFIELD: This is not Alaska where he might have been frozen in the muck. This is crazy, how is this possible?

GARCIA: It`s unbelievable. I mean, he was buried way below and yes, I mean, mud has a lot of great attributes for beauty and preservation. It`s

amazing that he was not -- you know, there was enough of him. There was more than enough of him. And this completely contradicted the story line

that had been told over and over again over those 17 years.

Oh, poor man, he went duck hunting. He fell out of his boat, alligators ate him, oh, my gosh, a few months later we find his pristine fishing

license. We find his pristine wader`s. Let`s declare the poor man dead. Six months later he is declared dead, a few years` later, widow and best

friend get married. Isn`t that just cozy?

BANFIELD: Yes, I`m going to have to ask, Joseph Scott Morgan in our next block how on earth in Florida in the muck, for 17 years, a body can stay

intact? I get it, I`m from Winnipeg. I know that can happen where I`m from. But even then, we have summer. So I don`t know how that is

possible. But it is fascinating to find that out.

Dear god, Ana, I can`t believe you got that detail. Help me out with something else. The whole Brian Winchester, there`s a lot of names flying

around. This is a little complicated, but effectively you`ve got Denise, she got her husband Mike. Mike disappears, they think he has been eaten by

alligators. 17 years later, she gets arrested, she has gone on to marry Mike`s best friend Brian, he wrote the insurance policy. Shazaam, she gets

the a million dollars. Some say even 2, is it 1 or the 2 million?

GARCIA: You know, it`s been reported as high as $2 million. And Ashleigh, when she collected on the insurance policies, it`s very interesting. The

state of Florida began an investigation to see if there was any potential fraud, but the case never went anywhere, because they weren`t able to find

any sufficient evidence. And we uncovered that at "Crime Watch Daily".

BANFIELD: OK. What`s weird is that Brian Winchester, while he is listed all the way through the indictment as the actual person who may have fired

the bullet that killed his best friend Mike, he is not charged with anything. She is. She is facing first degree murder. She is facing

conspiracy to commit first degree murder, she is facing accessory after the fact. But all through the details, it`s because she is in a conspiracy

working with him.

And yet, he is not charged with this crime. He is cooling his heels for 20 years for kidnapping her. And that is a whole another story. They were

love sick and crazy in the car, and he held a gun to her -- O.J. style and then he got a kidnapping charge for that, but let me do this, let me bring

in Ethan Way for a moment, Denise Williams` attorney. OK, first of all, the whole thing is astounding. How did -- where`s the money? How much

money did she get in the life insurance after her husband Mike died?

ETHAN WAY, DENISE WILLIAMS` ATTORNEY: That is all been addressed years and years ago. And I`m not going to sort of play along with the narrative that

this is about some kind of insurance payout, or that somehow Denise is not a grieving widow, as you like to portray it. The on say is, she is the

grieving widow. She is also the grieving mother --

BANFIELD: Ethan, you know -- look, you`re a defense attorney. You know your way around a trial. And that`s the kind of stuff that comes in and is

told to jurors. That`s a motive. Right? That`s something that jurors hang a lot of weight on even though they don`t need a motive. They do. So it`s not

an inconsequential question. How much was it?

WAY: It`s an intellectually easy thing. As you know, Ashleigh, the spouse is usually the first suspect, regardless of whether there`s a financial

motive. It`s the intellectually easy way to go. But what you --

BANFIELD: Some people wouldn`t kill for like 100,000, but they might kill for two million. It isn`t -- I don`t think it`s intellectual. It`s just a

simple thing.

WAY: Well, you mentioned earlier, Brian Winchester is mentioned throughout the three-count indictment.

BANFIELD: Why isn`t he charged?

WAY: Why hasn`t he been charged?

BANFIELD: That`s a good question. What do you know about it?

WAY: I have no idea. I have absolutely no idea why my client, after 17 years, is sitting in the Leon County jail without bond. And Brian

Winchester is doing 20 years for a crime he admitted to, for kidnapping my client at gunpoint, a crime for which he was sentenced.

And yet, all throughout this indictment, as you indicated, he is mentioned as the person who was involved. And on December 16th, 2000 --

BANFIELD: What`s weird, though, and this is the detail I think that`s the linchpin, is that when Brian Winchester was sentenced for that crazy love

sick kidnapping thing in the car between the two of them, the day after his sentence, they announced the body was found.

So that sounds to me like Brian -- and I don`t know this to be fact because he has not been charged, but he may have given up a fact that led them to

the body and maybe he got a deal out of it. But we won`t know that. Right now, we don`t have him charged. He`s all through the indictment. And we

have Denise charged.

When we come back after the break, there is something interesting about this story as well. For 17 years, no one`s been held accountable for this

man`s disappearance. Now, you heard Denise, his wife, has been arrested. Did his best friend suspect her all along? What about his boss? Because the

best friend is the guy who`s in the indictment. The boss, however, has his own thoughts. That`s next.

[18:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: We`re still talking about the Florida widow who was grieving for 17 years, but just arrested yesterday for the murder of her high school

sweetheart and her husband, 17 years ago. That woman who reportedly collected over $2 million, although I could not get a final answer from her

attorney on how much the money was in life insurance, she collected the money after her husband disappeared duck hunting.

She went on to marry his best friend, the man that the court documents now call her co-conspirator, that guy, even though that guy hasn`t been

charged. His name is Brian Winchester. He`s sitting in prison for something else, for actually holding a gun to Denise at one point. The charge was

kidnapping. He was convicted. But that guy has not been charged yet. And I say yet because a conspiracy means more than one, right?

Back with me, Ana Garcia, correspondent for "Crime Watch Daily" with Chris Hansen. Ethan Way is still with me, attorney for Denise Williams. He`s very

good at his job, because he is not answering my question about how much money she collected.

Also on the phone is Clay Ketcham. He is a former boss of Mike Williams, the victim in the story. And Joseph Scott Morgan, a certified death

investigator is with me, a professor of forensics at Jacksonville State. Defense Attorney Troy Slaten is with me as well.

Joe Morgan, first to you, when Ana Garcia dropped that bombshell in the last segment that when they found the body of Mike Williams, 17 years

later, he was six feet under in wet filthy muck in Northern Florida near the Georgia border where I know it`s hot pretty much all year long. And 17

years later, Ana reports the body was 98 percent perfectly intact. How is that possible?

JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: Well, the reason it`s possible, Ashleigh, is because the body is six feet under. It`s almost like

it`s in an anaerobic environment where it`s protected. It`s cocooned it this environment so it can be preserved.

And keep in mind, somebody falls out of a boat. They don`t accidentally wind up six feet beneath the muck, the swamp water, accidentally. The mud

just doesn`t suck you down six feet. He had to be purposely put in here.

If I`m reading reports correctly, he`s found immediately adjacent to a boat launch, so it could be easily accessible particularly if the water was

down, if they had a draw down on the water at that particular time, there in the winter months.

[18:40:03] Also this other theory about alligators and this sort of thing, I`m from South Louisiana. A lot of cases like this. People don`t understand

that during this time of year when he disappeared back in December of that year, alligators go into a dormancy period, Ashleigh, they don`t eat during

this period of time.

BANFIELD: Oh, wow.

MORGAN: So it`s kind of left me scratching my head.

BANFIELD: That`s fascinating. A couple other fascinating things, Joe, and that is that at the time, a few months after in fact Mike vanished, some

things turned up at the lake, a hat, a flashlight, his hunting license, and some waders.

And what was fascinating, again, a few months after this hunting trip, the batteries in the flashlight were still working. And the hunting license was

still legible. As a crime scene investigator, a certified death investigator, what are the odds that those items had actually been in the

water all that time, for six months, or a few months, sorry, what are the odds that maybe somebody came back there and threw them there?

MORGAN: Yeah, I think that that could be a distinctive possibility. I can`t imagine that a flashlight floating in the water for that amount of

time, I don`t care how good it is, that the batteries would still work after that period of time. If we could just go back to --

BANFIELD: Wait, the hunting license. No, go back to the hunting license. The ink is still perfect six months in the water. How does that happen?

MORGAN: Yeah. I`m having a real hard time buying that as a crime scene guy, that it would still be legible after this period of time, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: I want my Twitter followers to jump in on the hashtag "Justice with Ash" and let me know what you think. If you think that that`s possible

and if you think that that stuff could have been there for a few months in the water and the flashlight batteries would still work. I don`t know about

your flashlight batteries at your home, but the ones I`ve always had would not be that great, they never have been.

Clay Ketcham, I want to bring you in. This is a personal story for you. You are like a father figure to Mike Williams. And 17 years ago, he

disappeared. And now we know where he`s been all that time. And now we know his wife at the time, Denise Williams, is locked up and is going to face

the first-degree murder charge for this. Did you ever suspect her?

CLAY KETCHAM, FORMER BOSS OF MIKE WILLIAMS (via telephone): No. Let me just first say that Mike Williams was a stand-up guy. Mike Williams, you

know, the focus of this has been on his killers and the murders and the premeditation of it, which rightfully so, that`s where the emphasis needs

to be placed.

However, this was a young man who was instilled with a work ethic. He came to work every day. He kept his nose clean. He was a model citizen. He was -

- he came in early, worked late. He took care of his own family. This guy bought the groceries, cooked the meals, did the laundry, tucked the babies

in at night, came back to work.

This was -- this was a true man`s man. He was the complete thing, if you will. And I -- you know, this young man did not deserve this horrendous

murder. In my mind, it`s a horrendous murder because, you know, it was one thing to have first thought that he had drowned in the lake. But it`s an

entirely different thing to find him six feet in the muck for the last, you know, 17, 18 years. This is just -- this is horrendous.

BANFIELD: It came 17, 18 years, you had no answers and now you do, and you`ve got this indictment that has Denise, who I`m assuming if you were

his best friend, you had to be quite close to her, that`s his wife at the time. And I asked you if you suspected her at all, especially after the --

maybe you know the answer, $1 or $2 million in life insurance.

KETCHAM (via telephone): I don`t know the answer to the life insurance policy. My understanding from Mike when he -- Mike talked to me initially

about purchasing the life insurance. I told him it probably wasn`t a bad idea given the amount of premium, seemed to be reasonable.

So I don`t -- you know, I heard that it was a double indemnification for accidental death, which Mike was ruled an accidental death. So I don`t

know. I just know that Mike and Denise had what appeared to be an idyllic marriage. I did not see any problems on the marriage side. And of course I

didn`t suspect Denise or Brian at first. I thought --

BANFIELD: This has to be a horrendous shock to you. I mean, this has to be overwhelming that she`s been arrested.

KETCHAM (via telephone): It is. On top of losing my best friend to now -- one of my best friends to murder, you know, premeditated murder.

[18:44:57] I just -- you know, I think that`s what bothers me. And it`s for Cheryl, Mike`s mother, and for Nick (ph), his brother, we`re all

reliving this again.

BANFIELD: Yeah.

KETCHAM (via telephone): Mike has died multiple times to us. So every time, you know, we find his body, it`s another agonizing death. And now

with the arrest of someone for the premeditated murder, it`s another death. And --

BANFIELD: Clay, don`t go anywhere. I have another question for you after the break, if I can. Listen, whenever something like this happens, one of

the first questions so many people have is, was there like trouble somewhere else?

Financial difficulties in that marriage that maybe they didn`t talk about to other people. After the break, I want to ask you about that. And then I

also want to ask about how tough this case is going to be to prosecute 17 years later. That`s next.

[18:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Seventeen years after her husband went missing while duck hunting and was presumed by some to have been eaten by an alligator, he

wasn`t. And that wife was arrested yesterday for his murder. A conspiracy, the indictment says, with her husband now who, by the way, that now husband

was his best friend. Who sold him an insurance policy, a life insurance policy.

Those are never good facts. But I`ll tell you something, it`s all difficult for someone like Clay Ketcham, the victim`s former boss to try to process,

it`s also difficult for Ethan Way because he is Denise Williams`s defense attorney. They are both with me now.

Clay, can you just tell me, they have a child named Ainsley (ph). And Ainsley (ph) is now left without a father because he`s been dead now for 17

years. And now her mother is behind bars as of yesterday, charged with a murder. How is she coping with all of this?

KETCHAM (via telephone): You know, I don`t have any contact with Ainsley (ph) and other than, you know, once -- couple of years or so after Mike

disappeared, we had no more contact with Ainsley (ph).

BANFIELD: I can`t imagine the tragedy she`s dealing with. She looks to be about two or three years old there. She might be around 20 years old now.

Plenty old enough to be able to process a lot of this. I think it was her 19th birthday when her mom was arrested yesterday. It was her 19th

birthday.

KETCHAM (via telephone): That`s correct. She was 17 months old when Mike disappeared. It was her birthday yesterday. To me, Ainsley (ph) is the

unintended victim also in this because Ainsley (ph) did nothing but be born in this world. She lost her father, which we all. And she was, I`m sure

told, that it was a drowning.

BANFIELD: So sad.

KETCHAM (via telephone): And now to find out that it wasn`t. This is a lot for a young lady to deal with at 19 years old. And so we -- we all feel for

Ainsley (ph) as much as for Miss Cheryl and Mike.

BANFIELD: No kidding. Maybe Ethan, as Denise`s defense attorney, I don`t even know how much time you`ve had to talk to her, to meet with her in jail

as all of this is being processed, but she was apparently arrested at her office.

The authorities showed up at the end of her workday and took her out of that office in cuffs. Did she tell -- was she able to tell you what

happened and how that arrest went down?

WAY: She didn`t have to tell me how the arrest went down because the department of law enforcement, Tallahassee Police Department and the FSU

Police Department, were nice enough to do it at about 4:45 p.m. in front of a lot of cameras so they could get as much press time as they could and get

their perp walk out. They did it intentionally on Ainsley`s (ph) birthday.

This case has been going on for 17 years. You know, some of the questions that have to be asked, what is law enforcement doing? Why has this case

been languishing? Why haven`t they been able to get what they need to get out of Brian Winchester?

Ainsley (ph) is a strong young woman, and she is devoted to her mother and her mother is devoted to her. And Ainsley (ph) is going to be just fine

with her family and support network.

But what we`re missing here is that just as you pointed out at the beginning, Brian Winchester`s name is throughout that entire indictment.

And all of your questions and all of your guests all presuppose that the communication between my client and Brian Winchester somehow existed to

create this conspiracy.

But one thing that you need to remember is that Denise divorced Brian Winchester. She filed for divorce. And in doing so, one of the things that

was a result of that divorce is, by taking that action, she would have eliminated any spousal privilege.

BANFIELD: Yeah. And there was that gun incident as well. He didn`t want to break up with her. I have to leave it there. But I do want to ask you, if

you`ll come back, Ethan, because I think you`re just at the beginning of a very long and chewy discovery process.

So I`m going to ask you to come back and maybe we can continue to talk about this case as it progresses. I thank you for doing this today, too. I

really do. Thank you. My thanks to Clay Ketcham as well. This is a very painful time for him. Ana Garcia, great reporting. My thanks to all my

guests.

Then there`s this, a good Samaritan, who absolutely makes it look easy to take a bad guy down when the cops just couldn`t seem to catch him. He did.

One more thing, next.

[18:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: One more thing for you tonight, and it`s something that we`ve probably all wanted to do at one time or another, help out the good guys

while tripping up the bad guys.

Police say a good Samaritan right on your screen here is a disabled vet who was waiting for his granddaughter outside of the Columbus Library when he

saw the police chasing a man and decided to step up, actually step back, and take the suspect down.

[19:00:02] Notice he`s got a cane. Check this out. He`s got a cane and he could do this, no matter what. Nice try, bad guy. You`re no match for that

guy.

Next hour of CRIME & JUSTICE starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a grave site. No question about it.

BANFIELD (voice-over): They are long gone teenage girls who went missing decades ago.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t care if it`s a bone, a piece of hair, a nail. I don`t care. I just want my sister.

BANFIELD: But the search might finally be coming to a close.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The young female victims who were murdered are buried her.

BANFIELD: What police dug up today in a lonely Michigan field.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The terrain itself is very difficult. Optimistic that they are getting close to the area that they believe that we are going to

find some remains.

BANFIELD: And how one killer could be connected to all of them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The suspect in this case also did brag about murdering four to six people. He is not going anywhere.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mike left home early to go duck hunting.

BANFIELD: They thought he went hunting on his anniversary, but he never made it home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mike`s body was never found.

BANFIELD: Then word got around that he had been eaten by an alligator.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His boat was recovered the following day.

BANFIELD: But was this Florida man really murdered by his wife?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mike Williams was, in fact, murdered.

BANFIELD: Because his body just turned up. And now she has been picked up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The wheels of justice sometimes turn slowly, but they do turn.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: Hi, everybody. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. Welcome back.

This is the second hour of CRIME & JUSTICE.

Tonight, two murderers are sitting in Michigan prisons. But now those men may have many more victims under their belts, so to speak. 47-year-old

Jeffrey Willis is already serving life in prison for killing a woman who was jogging on a rural yard four years ago. But now, now he has been

charged with the kidnapping and murder of a young gas station clerk, a clerk who disappeared a year before that jogger did for a nearby town. And

once that trial wraps up, he has got another problem. Because he is also accused of kidnapping a 16-year-old girl back in 2016. She reportedly

escaped, being locked in his van after being held at gunpoint. And when they searched his house, they reportedly found child porn and videos of

women who were bound and being raped. Believe it or not, Jeffrey Willis is not the Michigan murder with the most brutal back story on tonight`s show.

No, that goes to 69-year-old Arthur Ream who is behind bars for killing his son`s girlfriend, who was 13. That was back in 1986. Tricking that little

girl, Cindy Zarzycki into leaving a Dairy Queen after planning a surprise party for his son.

Mr. Ream was convicted of killing this young woman Cindy, really girl, 13. He was already in prison serving a 15-year sentence for molesting a child,

but they let him out. Not for what you think. They didn`t just let him out to be free. They let him out, cuffed, and guided, so that he could

take them to where Cindy`s body was buried. And it is at that same site where Cindy was buried, an isolated field northeast of Detroit, where the

FBI are right now digging again because they think maybe four, five, six other girls who went missing as teenagers in the `70s and `80s might just

be there too.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to bring my sister home and lay her to rest. I don`t care if it`s a bone, a piece of hair, a nail, I don`t care. I just

want my sister. She`s out there somewhere, laying in the ground or wherever.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: And today, thanks to information from the suspect himself, and from chatty fellow inmates, investigators have dug up something promising.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What have you found? Have you found anything on this land?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, but I`m not going to comment on what we found. But what we did find, what we have found, is -- makes us very cautiously

optimistic that --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not remains, that`s what you`re saying?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: True, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You found something that connects this land to the girls?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Joining me now is Koco McAboy, a reporter with CNN affiliate WDIV. She is live at the search site in the Cone Township in Michigan.

And also with me Joseph Scott Morgan, a certified death investigator and a professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. Defense attorney

Troy Slaten is with me too. And we are going to speak with Dave Zulawski, who is an interrogation expert because, boy, you ever have to be good at it

when you are trying to dig information out of the guy who doesn`t talk but might just start.

Let me start with you, Koco, if I can. You are at the search site. Just take me there and tell me what`s happening and if they are any closer to

maybe unearthing these other young women and children who were killed.

[19:05:24] KOCO MCABOY, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WDIV: Good evening, Ashleigh. So investigators are digging as we speak. I want to show you

the scene here. You can see police have set up a perimeter. You can see the caution tape and barricades blocking access to this open field here.

Now, investigators are keeping the media pretty far away from where they are actually digging. But if you walk with me this way you can see this is

an open field, but it`s also a heavily wooded area. Investigators tell us that`s giving them some trouble. Of course, this is decades old evidence

that they are trying to find. The terrain is pretty rough out here. They are expecting some rain, but they are saying they have found evidence out

here that leads them to believe that four to six bodies could be buried here. They are calling this a graveyard, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: So I know that we saw that one moment with the police where they were asked about it, what did you find, what did you find? And you guys

were really dogged in trying to get that out of them and they are not saying. But there`s got to be something, either jewelry maybe or an item

of clothing. But God, after decades, even finding an item of clothing is difficult. Is that what the suspicions are among the press corps? I`m

sure that you are out there with other press members as well, Koco. Do they think that they found other artifacts belonging to other girls?

MCABOY: Yes, that`s exactly what all of us think out here. That it`s got to be some type of article of clothing, maybe some jewelry. We were trying

to press them for answers to determine what exactly they found. Because the center of the investigation here is on one man, 69-year-old Arthur

Ream, what they did tell us about what they found is that the piece of evidence they found links Arthur Ream to this field here and also links him

to one of the teen girls who went missing in the `70s or `80s.

BANFIELD: They say they will stay there as long as it takes. But then they also said it could be hours, it could be days but it could be hours.

Do you suspect they are going to find something very soon, Koco?

MCABOY: To be honest, I`m not sure they are going to find something very soon because they described this as finding a needle in a hay stack.

Because we are talking about 24 acres of land out here that they are searching. And they honestly do not know exactly where the remains may be.

But they are staying very confident. They are not even entertaining the idea that they won`t find anything here.

BANFIELD: Yes. Hold on for one second. Because there is this notion that, you know, this guy is a talker. Ream is a talker. He talked himself

out of something, some kind of a deal just before he was sentenced for Cindy`s murder. And maybe that got him a better prison condition.

Certainly, not going to knock any time off a life sentence. That`s automatic. He got something. Maybe he`ll talk again and help out, but it

will have to lead to something.

I want you to actually hear him talk, though. Because it`s very, very quick. It is fleeting. But this was during an interrogation when he was

in the room with the police officers and they were asking him about Cindy`s body. This was when he did talk. This is when he did give up the goods on

where Cindy was buried. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you position her body in a certain way in the hole?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On her back. All she had to do was go up North Avenue and it is right there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: He looks pretty proud of himself. That`s why I want to bring you in, David Zulawski, because as an interrogation expert, I mean, that`s

kind of like the lay terminology to explain what you do for a living, you helped the interrogators get that information out of him because it wasn`t

going to be easy. So what did you tell them?

DAVID ZULAWSKI, CONSULTED WITH DETECTIVES ON REAM CASE (on the phone): Well, for -- first of all, when you start something like this it has to be

non-confrontational. Because if you directly accuse him, you immediately back them into a corner and they deny. So what we suggested was they

really a conversation about what life was like 22 years before. And then going into the relationship between, you know, art and his family. And

then his son, which then brought us to Cindy, who was dating Art`s son at the time. And so the conversation evolves and then begin -- what you begin

to do is pick apart inconsistencies.

BANFIELD: Do you feed into his ego? I`m actually going to ask to do something strange. I want to play that moment again. I just want to watch

him again. Because now I want to read into his face and see if the rumors are true about him, that he just relishes being in the spotlight as so many

of these sick, twisted killers do. And I want to play the sound bite again where they are asking him about where Cindy`s body is, and trying to get

the directions to the site. I think this is before he actually takes them out to the grave site. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[19:10:15] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Position the body in a certain way in the hole?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On her back. All she had to do was go up North Avenue and it is right there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: That`s right there. Throw the pen down, it is right there. It`s hard to believe he is talking about a girl, a 13-year-old girl who was

violently raped and murdered.

David, do you feed into his ego? Do you stroke his ego when you were in that interrogation room? How do you treat that monster on the other side

of the table?

ZULAWSKI: No, absolutely, you have to, you know, you don`t do anything negative about him. It`s all positive. It`s, you know, he is not driven

by guilt at all, clearly he is a repeat offender and guilt is not it.

BANFIELD: No, he`s smiling. I think he is smiling. It feels like -- it`s grainy video, but it kind of looks like he is smiling when he is telling

them where to turn and what road to go down.

ZULAWSKI: Well, in some of these cases he is reliving what he was involved in at that time. And, you know, they do it because of some internal

satisfaction that they get. So when they relive, sometimes you will see those expressions of pleasure.

BANFIELD: Yes. I should tell our audience what`s critical in this is that he did not cop to the killing. He was convicted of it. He has gone

though, you know, for life. But he only copped to being there when she died and being there when she was buried. But he didn`t cop to the

killing. So with that information, David, do you think there`s a chance that they may be able to get him into a room again and get some of your

wisdom and guidance and strategizing and maybe get some locations of the other -- of the other girls?

ZULAWSKI: Well, I think there`s always a possibility. By -- from what I have heard, the little bit I know about it, you know, he is obviously spent

a lot of time conversing with some of the other inmates. And, you know, once you have that little bit of knowledge from them you can begin to chip

away at his certainty, and often get some level of cooperation. But it`s hard to say, and he really doesn`t have anything to gain by cooperating

other than, you know, potentially, you know --

BANFIELD: Maybe. You know what? No, maybe he does because I will tell you what, prison isn`t easy and life in prison isn`t easy either. And so,

maybe it`s some other vegetables or maybe it is a first crack at the chow line or maybe some other little life as lived in tiny increments when you

are in prison. And any little victory, whether it`s a different pillow, can mean the world. So maybe there is something they can offer to him to

try to get that out of him. He`s in for life anyway. Unlikely that one`s going out on appeal.

I just want to let our viewers know as well that there were a couple other things that the police did when they were collecting all this information

on how to get to that site. They interviewed him himself. They also found out he was bragging to other inmates, this is brilliant, isn`t it, bragging

to other inmates about these other victims, that`s why they went back and they are setting up shop again, putting out the tents, and starting to look

again at this massive farm, now woodland. By the way, when those kids were buried, it was just a farm and there were no trees. But after this many

decades, you know, this was the `70s and the `80s, it`s now forest so they have to remove trees in order to dig.

He also failed a polygraph and that`s fascinating. And then there`s other info and I put that in sort of like air quotes, because the other info is

something the police aren`t releasing to us as of yet.

Joe Morgan, if they come up with bodies, if they unearth bodies at that site that we are looking at after decades, are they going to be able to do

much in terms of the forensics, will they be able to gather evidence, cause of death, DNA that would link back to Arthur Ream?

JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: I would think that the DNA evidence is a shot in the dark relative to him. However, I think that

from an evidentiary standpoint as far as evidence of injury, yes, Ashleigh, I think particularly as it involves the skull, and the bones of the neck,

that`s going to be critical. And anything else he may have placed in that grave.

I was very encouraged to hear kind of what the police spokesman said, they -- he sounded very positive about whatever it is that they found. And this

can be one of two things. Either an identifying piece of evidence, or a piece of evidence that goes to cause of death. And I think that that`s

critical here because this is tying back to the suspect.

BANFIELD: Let me ask Troy Slaten. As a defense attorney, one of the things that is just great for your line of work is a really old, old, old

case, like one from the `70s or the `80s. So even if they do unearth bodies, I guess I have a two-part for you. And I will start with the first

question. That is, that`s a ripe mine field for you, right. That`s a ripe field to mine, I should say, because witnesses are dead. Any evidence they

might have otherwise is probably old, musty, dead or lost. There`s lots you can work with, isn`t there?

[19:15:26] TROY SLATEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Memories fade, absolutely things get lost and it becomes really difficult to prosecute when all the

forensics are -- almost all the forensics could be gone. And people have just moved on in their lives. So yes, it is ripe for a defense.

And you are absolutely right to point out, though, that he may have some incentive to cooperate because it could provide him some sort of benefit

inside the jail, the prison where he is at. And that`s why they may even use a polygraph that is not available to be used as evidence in court, but

it could test the voracity of what he`s saying to see if he`s walking them down some sort of rabbit hole.

BANFIELD: And you know what else, Troy, he is life, no parole, tight, to tag justice, toe tag parole. He is not getting out of his institution

unless there is a tag on his toe. And so, a lot of people would say, why does it even matter? Why go through the expense and the pain and suffering

of finding these other victims and then maybe even trying him for those victims, why would you?

SLATEN: It matters because, and I`m putting on my former prosecutor`s hat, it matters because you want to shut down every single case that you have,

every cold case deserves a conclusion for the families, for the police, for the community. We need to know what happened. And so that`s why it`s so

important.

BANFIELD: Yes. I mean, listen, easy for us to say, right, we are not the grieving family members left behind. We are not the sister that wants the

closure. They deserve justice. And that`s why we`re all there to support them.

Troy, thank you for that. I really appreciate it. Joe Morgan, thank you as well. David Zulawski, you are fascinating. What you do for a living is

incredible. And Koco McAboy, working very hard out there in the field for us. We appreciate that as well.

Thank you to all of my guests.

This next story, weird. She lost her husband in a tragic boating accident. Some people thought that maybe he had drowned, and that, dear God, maybe he

had been eaten by alligators. That really was the story. But all of that changed this week because the lovely lady, the wife, the mom in that

picture, has a whole other photograph now. It`s what we call a mug shot. And 17 years later she is now the suspect in his first degree murder. How

did that happen?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:22:42] BANFIELD: Mike and Denise Williams were high school sweethearts, and on December 16th in 2000, they were going to celebrate

their sixth anniversary with a really nice dinner. Like who wouldn`t, right? But Mike decided instead to go duck hunting first. And he set out

early in the morning for the lake. And Mike never came home. In fact, Mike`s body didn`t even turn up for 17 years.

The Florida couple`s friends and their neighbors, well, they all figured it was probably just a real tragic drowning while he was out duck hunting.

Right? And that`s kind of where the police landed on this story too. In fact, the word kind of started to circulate, most people figured he`d

actually been eaten by an alligator, no lie.

And then something happened. Mike`s body turned up. It turned up because it was dug up. It was six feet under in a bunch of muck near a boat

landing. And Mike had been shot. So he didn`t drown, and he sure didn`t bury himself. And now that sweetheart of his has a mug shot, and she is in

jail, and she`s accused of plotting to kill her husband for months. And not just her. The indictment says she did this with the man she went on to

marry. That would be Mike`s best friend, Brian. Brian, Brian. The same Brian who is said to have sold Mike a million dollar life insurance policy

just before he died. That is not a good set of facts. Not if you are Brian. Not if you are Denise.

Joining me now, Ana Garcia. She is a correspondent for "Crime Watch Daily." She has been covering this story since before most of us even

heard anything about it. Also joining me is Ethan Way, Denise Williams` attorney, got some great questions for Ethan.

But I`m going to begin with you, Ana, if I can. How did we get to the body, six feet under, buried in the muck?

[19:25:01] ANA GARCIA, CORRESPONDENT, CRIME WATCH DAILY: Yes, because he certainly didn`t get himself there. We have a theory at "Crime Watch

Daily" because all of this happened at a very interesting time. I`m going to roll it back two years. And we started investigating Brian and Denise,

his then wife, because we were looking into this very mysterious disappearance.

So we start knocking on doors and we are staking out the best friend`s house. We are staking out his office. We are staking out Denise. We

finally got to Denise and she took off in a car. And right after this, when we leave town, this explodes like crazy.

Brian gets arrested for trying to kidnap Denise. OK? And this is our theory at "Crime Watch Daily" based on what we`ve been told. It was when

Denise was telling investigators where exactly Brian had taken her during this kidnapping escapade that there was something about that area that

somehow revealed, left a clue, about where her poor husband might be buried.

So they start digging up this swamp. They had cadaver dogs, 30 of them. They had -- I mean, we`re talking about swamp muck. This was not easy. It

was about a week. They were about ready to give up because they couldn`t find anything and then bam, they found a body. 98 percent preserved. They

did the DNA test --

BANFIELD: Wait. Wait, go back, 98 percent preserved?

GARCIA: Yes.

BANFIELD: This 17 years ago this man died.

GARCIA: Yes. Unbelievable. And his body, Ashleigh, would tell investigators everything they needed to know about how he died. He was

shot.

BANFIELD: You have got to be kidding me, 98 percent. He was in muck. He was in muck.

GARCIA: He was preserved. Hey, come on. We use mud on our faces, right?

BANFIELD: This is not Alaska where he might have been frozen in the muck. This is crazy, how is this possible?

GARCIA: It`s unbelievable. I mean, he was buried way below. And yes, I mean, mud has a lot of great attributes for beauty and preservation. It`s

amazing that he was not -- you know, there was enough of him. There was more than enough of him. And this completely contradicted the story line

that had been told over and over again over those 17 years. Poor man, he went duck hunting. He fell out of his boat, alligators ate him, oh, my

God, a few months later we find his pristine fishing license. We find his pristine waders. Let`s declare the poor man dead. Six months later he is

declared dead, a few years later, widow and best friend get married. Isn`t that just cozy?

BANFIELD: Yes, I`m going to have to ask Joseph Scott Morgan in our next block how on earth in Florida in the muck, for 17 years, a body can stay

intact? I get it, I`m from Winnipeg. I know that can happen where I`m from. But even then, we have summer. So I don`t know how that is

possible. But it is fascinating to find that out.

Dear God, Ana, I can`t believe you got that detail. Help me out with something else. The whole Brian -- there`s a lot of names flying around.

This is a little complicated. But effectively you have got Denise. She has got her husband Mike. Mike disappears. They think he has been eaten

by alligators. Seventeen years later, she gets arrested. She has gone on to marry Mike`s best friend Brian. He wrote the insurance policy. She

gets the million dollars. Some say it was two. Is it one or two million?

GARCIA: You know, it`s been reported as high as $2 million. And Ashleigh, when she collected on the insurance policies, it`s very interesting. The

state of Florida began an investigation to see if there was any potential fraud, but the case never went anywhere because they weren`t able to find

any sufficient evidence. And we uncovered that at "Crime Watch Daily."

BANFIELD: OK. What`s weird is Brian Winchester, while he is listed all the way to the indictment as the actual person who may have fired the

bullet that killed his best friend Mike, he is not charged with anything. She is. She is facing first degree murder. She`s facing conspiracy to

commit first degree murder. She is facing accessory after the fact. But all through the details it is because she is in a conspiracy working with

him. And yet he is not charged with this crime. He is cooling his heels for 20 years for kidnapping her. And that`s another story. They were love

sick and crazy in the car, and he held a gun to her head O.J. style. And he got a kidnapping charge for that.

But let me do this. Let me bring in Ethan Way for a moment, Denise Williams` attorney.

OK, first of all, the whole thing is astounding. Where`s the money? How much money did she get in the life insurance after her husband Mike died?

ETHAN WAY, DENISE WILLIAMS` ATTORNEY: That`s all been addressed years and years ago. And I`m not going to sort of play along with the narrative that

this is about some kind of insurance payout, or that somehow Denise is not a grieving widow, as you like to portray it. She is the grieving widow.

She`s also the grieving mother of four --

[19:30:08] BANFIELD: But Ethan, you know as I -- look, you are a defense attorney. You know your way around a trial. And that is the kind of stuff

that comes in and is told to jurors. That`s a motive, right? That`s something that jurors hang a lot of weight on even though they don`t need a

motive. They do. So, it`s not an inconsequential question. How much was it?

WAY: It`s an intellectually easy thing. There -- as you know, Ashleigh, the spouse is usually the first suspect, regardless of whether there`s a

financial motive. It`s the intellectually easy way to go. But what you touched on earlier --

BANFIELD: Some people wouldn`t kill for like 100,000, but they might kill for 2 million. It isn`t not -- it`s not -- I don`t think it`s

intellectual.

WAY: No.

BANFIELD: I think it`s just simple. It`s just a simple thing that comes out in court.

WAY: How much -- how much -- well -- but, Brian, you mentioned earlier, Brian Winchester has mentioned throughout the three-count indictment.

(INAUDIBLE)

BANFIELD: Why isn`t he charged?

WAY: Why hasn`t he been charged?

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: That`s a good question. What do you know about it?

WAY: I have no idea. I have absolutely no idea why my client, after 17 years, is sitting in the Leon County Jail without bond, and Brian

Winchester is doing 20 years for a crime he admitted to, for kidnapping my client at gunpoint, a crime for which he was sentenced. And yet, all

throughout this indictment, as you indicated, he is mentioned as the person who was involved, and on December 16th, 2000 killed Williams --

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: What`s weird -- what`s weird, though -- and this is the detail I think that`s the linchpin, is that when Brian Winchester was sentenced for

that crazy love sick kidnapping thing in the car between the two of them, the day after his sentence they announced the body was found. So, that

sounds to me like Brian -- and I don`t know this to be fact, as he is not been charged, but he may have given up the fact that led them to the body,

and maybe he got a deal out of it. But we won`t know that because right now we don`t have him charged. He`s all through the indictment, and we

have Denise charged.

I -- when we come back after the break, there is something interesting about this story as well. For 17 years, no one`s has been held accountable

for this man`s disappearance. Now, you heard Denise, his wife, has been arrested. Did his best friend suspect her all along? What about his boss?

Because the best friend is the guy who`s in the indictment. The boss, however, has his own thoughts. That`s next.

[19:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: We`re still talking about the Florida widow who was grieving for 17 years, but just arrested yesterday for the murder of her high school

sweetheart, and her husband, 17 years ago. That woman who reportedly collected over $2 million, although I could not get a final answer from her

attorney on how much the money was in life insurance, she collected the money after her husband disappeared duck hunting. She went on to marry his

best friend, the man that the court documents now call her co-conspirator, that guy, even though that guy hasn`t been charged. His name is Brian

Winchester. He`s sitting in prison for something else, for actually holding a gun to Denise at one point. The charge was kidnapping. He was

convicted. But that guy has not been charged yet. And I say yet because a conspiracy means more than one, right?

Back with me, Ana Garcia, correspondent for Crime Watch Daily with Chris Hansen. Ethan Way is still with me, attorney for Denise Williams, who`s

very good at his job because he`s not answering my question about how much money she collected. Also, on the phone is Clay Ketcham, he`s the former

boss of Mike Williams, the victim in this story. And Joseph Scott Morgan, a Certified Death Investigator is with me, whose professor of forensics at

Jacksonville State. Defense Attorney Troy Slaten is with me as well.

Joe Morgan, first to you, when Ana Garcia dropped that bombshell in the last segment that when they found the body of Mike Williams, 17 years

later, he was six feet under in wet filthy muck in Northern Florida near the Georgia border where I know it`s hot pretty much all year long. And 17

years later, Anna reports the body was 98 percent perfectly intact. How is that possible?

JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: Well, the reason it`s possible, Ashleigh, is because the body is six feet under. It`s almost

like it`s in an anaerobic environment where it`s protected. It`s cocooned in this environment so it can be preserved. And keep in mind, somebody

falls out of a boat, they don`t accidentally wind up six feet beneath the muck, the swamp water accidentally. The mud just doesn`t suck you down six

feet. He had to be purposely put in here. If I`m reading reports correctly, he`s found immediately adjacent to a boat launch, so it could

have been easily accessible particularly if the water was down. If they had a drawdown on the water at that particular time during the winter

months. Also, this other theory about alligators and this sort of thing, I`m from South Louisiana with a lot of cases like this. People don`t

understand, during this time of year when he disappeared back in December of that year, alligators go into a dormancy period, Ashleigh. They don`t

eat during this period of time.

[19:40:16] BANFIELD: Oh, wow.

MORGAN: So, it`s kind of left me scratching my head.

BANFIELD: That`s fascinating. There`s a couple other fascinating things, Joe, and that is that at the time, a few months after, in fact, that Mike

vanished, some things turned up at the lake, a hat, a flashlight, his hunting license, and some waders. And what was fascinating -- again, a few

months after this hunting trip, the batteries in the flashlight were still working, and the hunting license was still legible. As a crime scene

investigator, a certified death investigator, what are the odds that those items had actually been in the water all that time, several -- for six

months, or a few months, sorry, what are the odds that maybe somebody came back there and threw them there?

MORGAN: Yes, it -- I think that that could be a distinctive possibility. I can`t imagine that a flashlight floating in the water for that amount of

time. I don`t care how good it is that the batteries would still work after that period of time. If we could just go back to --

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: Wait, the hunting license. No, go back to the hunting license.

MORGAN: Yes.

BANFIELD: The ink is still perfect six months in the water. How does that happen?

MORGAN: Yes. I`d have a real hard time buying that as a crime scene guy, that if it would still be legible after this period of time, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: I want my Twitter followers to jump in on the #justicewithash and let me know what you think. If you think that that`s possible, that if

you think that that stuff could have been there for a few months, in the water, and the flashlight batteries would still work. I don`t know about

your flashlight batteries at your home, but the ones that I`ve always had would not be that great. They never have been.

Clay Ketcham, I want to bring you in. This is a personal story for you. You are like a father figure to Mike Williams, and 17 years ago he

disappeared and now we know where he`s been all that time, and now we know his wife at the time, Denise Williams, is locked up and is going to face

the first degree murder charge for this. Did you ever suspect her?

CLAY KETCHAM, VICTIM`S FORMER BOSS: No. Let me just first say that Mike Williams was a stand-up guy. Mike Williams -- you know, the focus of this

has been on his killers and the murders and the premeditation of it, which rightfully so, that`s where the emphasis needs to be placed. However, this

was a young man who was instilled with a work ethic. He came to work every day, he kept his nose clean, he was a model citizen, he was -- he came in

early, worked late, he took care of his own family. This guy bought the groceries, cooked the meals, did the laundry, tucked the babies in at

night, came back to work. This was -- this was a true man`s man. He was the complete thing, if you will, and I -- you know, this young man did not

deserve this horrendous murder. In my mind, it`s a horrendous murder because, you know, it was one thing to have first that he had drowned in

the lake. But it`s an entirely different thing to find him six feet in the muck for the last, you know, 17, 18 years. This is just -- this is

horrendous.

BANFIELD: So, 17, 18 years, you had no answers and now you do, and you`ve got this indictment that has Denise, who I`m assuming if you were his best

friend, you had to be quite close to her, that`s his wife at the time, and I asked you if you suspected her at all, especially after the -- maybe you

know the answer, $1 million or $2 million in life insurance?

KETCHAM: I don`t know the answer to the life insurance policy. My understanding from Mike when he -- Mike talked to me initially about the

purchasing the life insurance. I told him it probably wasn`t a bad idea given the amount of premium, and it seemed to be reasonable. So, I don`t -

- I don`t, you know, and I heard that it was a double indemnification for accidental death, which Mike was ruled (AUDIO GAP). So, I don`t know. I

just know that Mike and Denise had what appeared to be an idyllic marriage. I did not see any problems on the marriage side. And of course I didn`t

suspect Denise or Brian at first. I thought --

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: Well, this has to be just a horrendous shock to you. I mean, this has to be overwhelming that she`s been arrested.

KETCHAM: Well, it is. On top of losing my best friend to, now, one of my best friends to murder, you know, premeditated murder. I just, you know, I

think that`s what bothers me, and it`s -- and it`s for Cheryl, Mike`s mother, and for Nick, his brother. We`re all reliving this again.

[19:45:01] BANFIELD: Yes.

KETCHAM: Mike has died multiple times to us.

BANFIELD: OK.

KETCHAM: So every time, you know, we find his body, it`s another agonizing death. And now, with the arrest of someone for the premeditated murder,

it`s (AUDIO GAP) and it`s only --

BANFIELD: Well, Clay, don`t go anywhere. I have another question for you after the break if I can, and that -- listen, whenever something like this

happens, one of the first questions so many people have is, was there like trouble somewhere else? Financial difficulties in that marriage that maybe

they didn`t talk about to other people? After the break, I want to ask you about that. And then, I also want to ask about how tough this case is

going to be to prosecute 17 years later. That`s next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:50:00] BANFIELD: 17 years after her husband went missing while duck hunting and was presumed by some to have been eaten by an alligator, he

wasn`t. And that wife was arrested yesterday for his murder. A conspiracy, the indictment says, with her husband now, who, by the way,

that now husband was his best friend who sold him an insurance policy, a life insurance policy. Those are never good facts but I`ll tell you

something. It`s all difficult for someone like Clay Ketcham, the victim`s former boss to try to process, it`s also difficult for Ethan Way because

he`s Denise Williams` defense attorney. They`re both with me now.

Clay, can you just tell me, they have a child named Ainsley (ph). And Ainsley is now left without a father because he`s been dead now for 17

years and now her mother is behind bars, as of yesterday, charged with the murder. How is she coping with all of this?

KETCHAM: You know, I don`t have any contact with Ainsley and other than, you know, once a couple years or so after Mike disappeared, we had no more

contact with Ainsley.

BANFIELD: I can`t imagine that the tragedy she`s dealing with. She looks to be about two or three years old there. She might be around 20 years old

now. Plenty old enough to be able to process a lot of this. Very untouched. I think -- wasn`t it her -- wait, her 19th birthday -- when her

mom was arrested yesterday, it was her 19th birthday.

KETCHAM: That`s correct. She was 17 months old when Mike disappeared and it was her birthday yesterday. To me, Ainsley is the unintended victim

also in this because Ainsley did nothing but be born into this world. And she lost her father which we all -- and she was I`m sure told that it was a

drowning.

BANFIELD: That was sad.

KETCHAM: And then, to find out that it wasn`t. And this is a lot for a young lady to deal with at 19 years old.

BANFIELD: Yes.

KETCHAM: And that`s -- and so we, you know, we all feel for Ainsley as much as for Miss Cheryl and Mike.

BANFIELD: OK, and maybe Ethan, as Denise`s defense attorney, I don`t even know how much time you`ve had, you know, to talk to her, to meet with her

in jail as all of this has been processed, but she was apparently arrested at her office. That the authorities showed up at the end of her workday

and took her out of that office in cuffs. Did she tell -- was she able to tell you what happened and how that arrest went down?

WAY: Well, she didn`t have to tell me how the arrest went down because the Department of Law Enforcement, Tallahassee Police Department, and the FSU

Police Department were nice enough to do it at about 4:45 p.m. in front of a lot of cameras so they can get as much press time as they could and get

their perp walk out, and they did it intentionally on Ainsley`s birthday. This case has been going on for 17 years but, you know, some of the

questions that has to be asked is what has law enforcement been doing? Why is this case been languishing? Why haven`t they been able to get what they

need to get out of Brian Winchester?

Ainsley is a strong young woman and she is devoted to her mother and her mother is devoted to her, and Ainsley is going to be just fine with her

family and her support network, but what we`re missing here is that just as you pointed out at the beginning, Brian Winchester`s name is throughout

that entire indictment and all of your questions and all of your guests all presuppose that the communication between my client and Brian Winchester

somehow existed to create this conspiracy. But one thing that you need to remember is that Denise divorced Brian Winchester. She filed for divorce,

and in doing so, one of the things that was a result of that divorce is by taking that action, she would have eliminated any spousal privilege.

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: Yes, and there was that -- and there was that gun incident, as well. You know, he didn`t want to break up with her. I have to leave it

there but I do want to ask you if you`ll come back, Ethan, because I think you`re just at the beginning of a very long and chewy discovery process.

So, I`m going to ask you to come back and maybe we can continue to talk about this case as it progresses. And I thank you for doing this today,

too. I really do. Thank you.

BANFIELD: My thanks to Clay Ketcham, as well. This is a very painful time for him. Ana Garcia, great reporting. My thanks to all of my guests.

Then, there`s this. A Good Samaritan who absolutely makes it look easy to take a bad guy down when the cops just couldn`t seem to catch him, he did.

"ONE MORE THING," next.

[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Got "ONE MORE THING" for you tonight, a Good Samaritan displaying some pretty fancy footwork while taking down a suspect who is

running from the police. We`ve got the video. That`s a disabled vet right there waiting for his granddaughter outside the library. The Columbus

Library. He hears the sirens, he sees the perp running, and he does that. He did that. Just, you know, took a step back, but really a leap forward

in crime fighting, right? The old fashioned way. He stop the guy that way. By the way, you see he`s got a cane? Didn`t matter. He`s no -- that

young, you know, suspect is no match for him. I just love seeing that stuff. Cops were just seconds away from actually firing on that fleeing

teenager. So, that fast-thinking hero might have actually not just got him caught but saved his life. So, thank you is what the suspect should be

saying.

See you right back here tomorrow night, 6:00 Eastern. You can also listen to our show any time. Download our podcast, Apple Podcasts, iHeartRadio,

Stitcher, TuneIn, wherever you get your podcast for your CRIME & JUSTICE fix. Thanks for watching, everybody. "FORENSIC FILES" begins right now.

Don`t miss it.

END