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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield

14th Foot Found On The Shores Of The Pacific Northwest; Killer To Go Free, Murderer Has Done Enough Time Behind Bars; Shayna Hubers Found New Love Inside The Prison; A Mother Convicted In Killing His Husband Now Has A Chance To Be Released; Could Killer Hatchet-Wielding Wife Go Free?; Mystery After Missing Girl`s Body Found; Cops: Thief Caught In Camera Going Fornite Robot Dance. Aired 6-8p ET

Aired May 14, 2018 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:03] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HOST, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE: Good evening, everyone, I`m Ashleigh Banfield. This is "Crime and Justice." And

tonight, a gruesome mystery on the shores of the Pacific Northwest. Human feet washing ashore, one at a time. Justin Freiman is covering this story.

Justin, a beach goer just found a 14th foot?

FREIMAN: That is right, a 14th foot. It`s odd enough to find one, on the shore, but 14 feet have shown up. We`ve been investigating who those feet

belong to. And why do they keep ending up in this area.

BANFIELD: Just bizarre. And it`s such a beautiful place for such a horrible finding.

Also happening tonight, a ground swell of support for this woman from Michigan serving life in prison for killing her husband with a hatchet. A

woman who cleaned up the scene and then his bloody body in the car. Kyle Peltz is following this one. Why are so many people out on her side to get

her out of prison, Kyle?

KYLE PELTZ, CRIME AND JUSTICE PRODUCER: By the way, that bloody body was stashed in her car while she went to work. But now, some people are coming

forward saying this murderer has done enough time behind bars and should be let out of jail that includes the Judge who sentenced her.

BANFIELD: Unbelievable. Look at this really fancy home too, it is not the kind of home you typically see crime tape around, before to that, Kyle,

thank you.

Also, the brutal question -- answer actually to a question that one family has been asking for nearly a decade, what happened to our little girl?

Because the remains of 10-year-old Lindsey Baum, was just identified, hundreds of miles -- actually, 150 miles from where she went missing.

Bernice Man is working this one. What are the police saying happened to her?

MAN: Well, Ashleigh, police say they are now on the hunt for a killer. Will they zero in on those people that they`ve checked out in the past?

Including three brothers arrested on child porn related charges. We`ll find out.

BANFIELD: Wow, such a sad story, such a beautiful little girl, such a mystery for so long.

Also, the office thief who did this, celebrating his score, even before leaving the building, with this fun little dance that looks to me like a

whole lot -- like that robot dance from the widely popular game, Fortnite. You know who you are if you play that game. We are going to show you the

whole dance and you can compare Fortnite to this guy.

Then later, a woman who shot her boyfriend in the face saying that she gave him the nose job that he always wanted. Now she is got a brand new guy,

sort of, and it`s serious too. Wedding bells might be ringing behind bars for Shayna Hubers, for the transgender inmate that she had said to be

planning to marry. How does that work anyway when you`re both in the can?

First, though I want to take you to the cold and foggy beaches of the Pacific Northwest, where normally it`s kelp or driftwood that washes up on

shore. Not human feet. But ever since 2007 that is what your northern neighbors have been discovering along the coast, mostly men`s feet, and

they`re wearing shoes. And a beach goer just found number 14. This time the severed human foot was in a hiking boot, and that hiking boot was

jammed in a pile of logs. The local coroners insist that there`s nothing for anybody to be worried about here, ahem, what? They say these feet

mostly belong to people who probably drowned or committed suicide.

And the police have been able to identify just six of those poor people who these feet eventually at one point belonged to, including a 79-year-old man

who vanished from Washington State. But there are also some very strange theories out there. Like, dismember with a foot fetish, a serial killer

who sends body parts out to sea. And then you`ve got to admit, death is pretty tough to figure out when you`ve only got one foot to go off.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you`ve just got a body part, you can`t do a temperature on a body part or the (inaudible) of just a body part. It`s

really very difficult to do time of death.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I`ll say. I want to bring in my panel, Crime and Justice Producer, Justin Freiman is working this story. Defense attorney Jeff Gold

is here. Also Tristin Hopper, is a reporter for National forensic at Jacksonville State University, Joseph Scott Morgan, is joining us as well.

Justin, let me start with you first on this latest story. 14, 14 feet and nothing to see here folks, nothing to worry about. I am not sure how I

feel good about that theory. Nothing t se here.

FREIMAN: right and it is just a foot. You know, this hiking boot that is found, it`s jammed into a bunch of logs on a beach and it`s a foot. But of

all these 14, where`s the rest of the body?

BANFIELD: Yes and they haven`t, to be clear, they have not found any other body parts to go with any of these 14 feet.

FREIMAN: They haven`t, and they haven`t identified who all 14 feet actually belong to.

BANFIELD: Yes. I guess I would feel better if, for instance, this happened in other places too where feet would wash up on shore and we

shouldn`t worry, because it was probably just some unfortunate person who committed suicide or drowned. Why this area? Do we know?

[18:05:00] FREIMAN: Yes, well, there`s a lot of rocky coastline around there, and some people do fall or commit suicide there, so that could be

one of the reasons. But you know, it`s really hard to find out who these feet all belong to because one of them that they had found had actually,

they found it and it was dating back to 1985.

BANFIELD: 1985?

FREIMAN: Yes, and it was actually found in 2011.

BANFIELD: So it`s been out there a while?

FREIMAN: Yes.

BANFIELD: OK. So it begs the question, and Jeff, I know your Spidey senses would be tingling away about how do you even come up with a case

this many years later with only one foot and I will get to that in a minute. But this particular -- I hate to even say this, it sounds so

weird, this foot, they are testing it to figure out if there`s a DNA database match anywhere for say what, a missing person or a victim of a

crime?

FREIMAN: Right. That is right. And they also test it because sometimes they`re able to match a missing foot with another missing foot that is been

found. They`ve actually done it where they`ve found two feet. So they know they`re related to each other, but they don`t know whose they are.

BANFIELD: It is creepy. Can we put up that big sort of graph that had all the different shoes? It looks, but first of all, what struck me and

looking the (inaudible), notice, that you got to get close to your TV, folks, and you really got to peek at this one, because there`s so many,

they`re all sneakers except for one on the screen, and then the hiking boot today. Does that tell them anything?

FREIMAN: Well, the police will say, well, that is because people are athletic in this area and they`re probably out in the wilderness when they

take their fall. But it does seem strange.

BANFIELD: And it looks to be that some of them actually match. So they wouldn`t have even need to do the testing, they could have matched the

sneakers. Like the two on the top, they look they are to be the same ones, right?

FREIMAN: Correct. Correct, some of them do actually match up, but it doesn`t mean they`ve matched them to a person yet.

BANFIELD: So, Tristin Hopper, I guess the question for you would be, are people -- are they weirded, how are they freaked out, are they upset?

There`s a lot of conspiracy theories. How are people in that area taking this news each time another food comes up on shore, and now we`re at 14?

TRISTIN HOPPER, REPORTER, NATIONAL POST: It doesn`t actually worry us too much, because, you know, just like the theories, and we were weirded out at

the beginning, this is actually been solved, it has been solved for several years. This is sort of a great success story for the B.C. Coroner Service.

So what we found is that you`ll notice if you go back to all of the images of shoes, those are all buoyant shoes and that is important. There is no

pumps, there is no, you know, heavy wooden shoes. And what the B.C. Coroner Services figured out, is that these are the bodies of primarily

people who have died by suicide by jumping off of bridges in the Vancouver area.

And then what happens is their body settles to the bottom of the ocean, and as it decomposes, most of it just stays on the bottom. However, if your

shoe -- if your foot is in a buoyant shoe, that raises to the surface and watches up on a beach. This has probably been happening ever since the

1980s. When everybody started wearing running shoes, but it`s only after, you know, when the first shoe was discovered and we figured out there was

this de-articulated foot in it that everybody started paying special attention to shoes on beaches, and then we discovered there was all these

other feet.

So, yes, we`ve found out quite a while ago, that there`s no foul play, this is just sort of a consequence of the majority, and the majority have

actually been identified. And this has been sort of a miracle for families, you can imagine that if you`re a family in the Vancouver area

until recently, all you knew is your teenage son left one night and never came home. And then one day the B.C. Coroner`s Service calls, and says,

you know, that foot that washed up, we know where he ended up and where his body is now.

BANFIELD: That is only six, they only identified six of the foot.

HOPPER: Six individuals, yes.

BANFIELD: Six individuals. Tristin hold on for one second. I got a million more question for you. Specifically that claimed that it is

solved. Because I still smell a rat. I think it`s really hard that if you don`t have a body even I`d to be solved. And so I`m going to start press

you on that a little bit and ask you where you got with the authorities, but before I go to Joseph Scott Morgan on this.

It is sort of a really sinister topic, Joe, and it`s an awful thought, but I want to go back to what Tristin said, that the bodies that they, you

know, launched themselves off a bridge, or somewhere in that Vancouver area and went up the sound, I think the body often floats too. We often get

bodies up on shore. But they are only getting feet. You`re a death investigator. Why would that be?

JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, PROFESSOR OF FORENSIC, JACKSONVILLE STATE UNIVERSITY: I don`t know. I think that we could probably look at this idea of the

buoyancy of the shoe. However, keep in mind, this last one that they found is in a hiking boot and found caught up in driftwood on the beach. One of

the important words that keeps popping up throughout this whole thing is the word disarticulation. And that is key here. When I first heard this,

I was thinking, you know, somebody that has a foot fetish, you got people that are really bizarre out there that do strange things. They`re not

using the word dismemberment.

And the big difference is with disarticulation that means that the anatomical structure is still there. And so the tissue actually begins to

pull apart over a period of time through the process of decomposition, literally pulling away at the ankle joint and this would free the foot up

to float away from the rest of the torso.

[18:10:10] And as to where the rest of these torsos are winding up, I have no idea whatsoever. The fact that it`s just specifically feet is way off

of my radar. I`m really scratching my head.

BANFIELD: I`m as perplexed as you are. Because listen, I think -- probably my greatest epiphany of how the dead body reacts when it is under

water is the Lacy Peterson story, that was such a horrifying story that she had been waded down and ultimately the gases and the bloating separated her

from her weighs and her torso and that unborn child, Conor, also came to the surface. So, that is what I think would happen with these bodies too.

But again, I have to reiterate, they are only finding the feet, out of all 14 of these feet, Joe, they have not found a body part to go with it. Does

that strike you as odd?

MORGAN: Yes. It kind of does. You would think that over this period of time that they would have. And you know, the RCMP is very thorough. I`m

sure the Coroner Service is doing the best they can. But Ashleigh, you know this area, and this area is a vast, vast area. I`m curious about the

currents that run through this area, why they`re all focally located in this one specific area and why these torsos aren`t coming along with them.

One thing that I will say, and we have to keep this in mind and it`s a little bit graphic, but just so that we understand, there is aquatic life

up there. And one of the areas that they`re going to feast on is going to be non-protected areas. So if you have part of the body that is easy to

get to, say like with crabs, which particularly like human flesh, they can get to the exposed torso through the clothing and that sort of thing. The

shoes are going to be a bit more difficult to overcome.

BANFIELD: That makes a little bit some sense. Tristin, back to you about that topic I broached earlier and that was that, how can they be so sure?

I don`t mean, listen, I`m Canadian. I grew up at the RCMP, they are awesome, and they are not to be messed with either. Very thorough, they

are very good at the jobs. But how can they be so sure that there`s no foul play? When they can`t even identify most of these bodies and they

have nothing else to go on with, you know, what happened to them, how they died. They just have a foot. How can they be so sure there wasn`t

something foul?

HOPPER: I guess the possibility still exists that someone could have killed someone, and then thrown hem into the river. But I think it`s a

pretty good indication that the majority of the feet and the majority of the individuals have been traced to someone who has died either by suicide

or by accident in these bodies of water. Now, the fact that they haven`t been identified, this is the west coast of Canada, the Coroner Service

faces very similar problems based by Alaska, or California. There are a lot of people who go missing in Bernice Columbia, who have no fixed

address, nobody knew they were there. I mean, it`s the West Coast. This is a problem faced much more dramatically on the West Coast than any other

part of Canada. So a lot of the times they`re pretty confident that this is a suicide victim. They just don`t have a name yet.

BANFIELD: So, I`m going to get Jeff Gold in there, who always digs to the other side of the story, because that is what you have to do for a living

as a Defense Attorney. Do you see anything funny about that? I mean the fact that they got a foot, they don`t know who it belongs to, they don`t

have the cause of death, they can`t possibly know other than toxicology, and even then I am not so sure they could get that out of the skeletal

remains in the shoe that nothing to see here, folks, nothing to be worried about?

JEFF GOLD, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I mean, I agree with you that it strikes you as suspicious, and yet the explanation that their feet are wearing little

life preservers that eventually come up to the surface and the rest of them is not wearing anything that is buoyant makes some sense. I mean, in the

old days people wore leather shoes. And now they all have -- even the hiking shoes today are not leather hiking shoes, they`re more like running

shoes are, all waterproof, et cetera.

BANFIELD: What about making that definitive link, when you don`t have a cause of death, you don`t have an identification, you don`t have a manner

of death, you don`t have anything, but you`re going to just assume it was a suicide.

GOLD: I don`t know if it`s an assumption. They have a number of people that are --

BANFIELD: Not all of them.

GOLD: No, but they have a number that are. So, you know, the circumstantial evidence is, if you have six of them --

BANFIELD: It`s enough.

GOLD: Yes, I think it`s enough, because now you`ve got to have the natural explanation that they simply died and this rose to the surface, plus a

fetish murder. That is too much for me.

BANFIELD: So Tristin, you know, it`s an awful topic, and so to cover, but it is so bizarre just enough why it makes headlines. Are the folks in that

community kind of used to this by now, or are they still sort of headlines using this every time another foot washes up.

HOPPER: Well, of course, it`s weird, I mean, any body part is weird, you know, regardless of the method by which it`s conveyed to a beach. But I

guess, the biggest thing when you see a foot, a shoe on the beach, you go check to see if there`s a foot inside it, you know, just from a (inaudible)

reason And also because there is a grieving family who might really appreciate if you found a foot inside that particular shoe.

[18:15:00] BANFIELD: That is, you know, exactly, there is a grieving family somewhere that wants that closure, it makes perfect sense. I got to

wrap it there. But you know, thank you, Tristin, for this, will you come back again and talks to us -- let`s talk at another time when the topic is

much better, like perhaps the Winnipeg jets winning the Stanley Cup, the only Canadian NHL team in the finals right now.

HOPPER: We have lots of complete bodies here in Canada, it is not just parts.

BANFIELD: Yes. Some of them actually leave for New York. That is me. Thank you all of you for the information. Thank you to my guests.

I also have this, a Michigan mother convicted of hacking her husband to death with a hatchet, trying to get her life sentence reduced, actually

committed. And she has an unlikely ally in all of this, the last person you would think, think about it, maybe the Judge in her case? Believe it

or not he agrees. He is going to join us next.

[18:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: She was an elementary schoolteacher, a local mom, two grown boys, and a husband of 31 years. She was also a cold-blooded killer. That

is what a jury decided, anyway, that this woman, 52-year-old Nancy Seaman, should spend the rest of her life behind bars with no possibility of

parole, because she butchered her husband to death.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY SEAMAN, CONVICTED OF KILLING HER HUSBAND: I couldn`t fix him, no matter what I did, I couldn`t fix him. He was dead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: The jury that sent her to prison would hear how Nancy bought a hatchet at home depot the night before the killing. And struck her husband

with that hatchet nearly 20 times before cleaning up the mess that she`d made in the garage, and moving his body to the car. And then driving to

work the next day. Because apparently she did not want either of the children to see this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEAMAN: I can`t let Jeff see his dad like that. He is all broken. He is all broken on the floor. He is not moving, and there`s blood everywhere.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Nancy`s now 65 years old, and she is 13 years into her sentence. But there is a movement afoot to free her from prison, because more people

believe her side of the story, that Nancy was, in fact, abused by her husband, to the point that she simply had to defend herself. And the

person spearheading the push to get Nancy out of prison is actually the person who made sure she was in prison, the Judge who sent her there.

With me now, Marie Osborn, she is a news anchor for WJR Radio, and also retired Judge John McDonald. He oversaw Nancy Seaman`s trial, and is now

advocating to have her sentence reduced. And defense attorney, Jeff Gold is also with me.

So, Maria, set the stage for me a little bit first and explain to me how this trial actually played out. You were there. You covered the trial.

Did anything seem wrong about that result for you, for people in the gallery?

MARIE OSBORNE, WJAR 760 WJRM NEWS ANCHOR: Just on a personal note, I did cover the trial from the beginning to the end. And I just remember being

puzzled by the fact that there wasn`t more testimony allowed about this alleged abuse that she suffered. She supposedly suffered her first beating

at the hands of her husband two weeks after they were married. Now that is her testimony. But we weren`t allowed to hear much about that while the

jury was in the room. There was much discussion once the jury was taken out of the room as to how much of this to actually allow into -- for the

jury to hear.

So she always, on a personal note, she always appeared like a battered woman to me. But the jury wasn`t allowed to hear a lot of this testimony.

Also, you played a clip here, I think, of her testimony. She, herself, was not a good witness on the stand. She was called to the stand herself, and

she was extremely nervous. You could tell, but she just didn`t make a good case for herself about why she was a battered woman and nearly reacting to

an attack by her husband.

BANFIELD: OK, then. Also, Marie, weigh in on her sons. Because the word is, and maybe things changed and, you know, maybe it`s not exactly as I`ve

come to understand this, but her sons were bifurcated in what they felt happened. Did one believe she killed her husband, and the other believed

that she acted in self-defense? Was it that simple?

OSBORNE: One of the tragedies, I think, of this story, because the two brothers who were adults by now, and in fact one was married, one testified

for the prosecution in this case, and he testified he had never seen any abuse by his father to his mother. But Nancy testified, and others have

said in the past, that she was an expert at covering bruises. That she wanted everybody to believe that everything was OK in her house. And she

also wanted her kids to believe that as well. So the one brother testified for the prosecution. The other brother was for his mother, was on his

mother`s side, and did not cooperate at all with the prosecution. And that was made a big point, by the way, during the trial by the prosecutors.

[18:25:07] BANFIELD: So bizarre. I mean, that is absolutely one of the great tragedies of this case. So now we have this ground swell to commute

her sentence, to get her out of prison, to sort of reinvigorate the notion that that woman was a battered woman, and acted in self-defense, all after

the fact, after she is been serving 13 years already. Megyn Kelly of NBC news actually did a jailhouse interview with Nancy Seaman. And she is a

lawyer. So Megyn is awesome at this and she drilled down on that really uncomfortable fact that Nancy had purchased the hatchet the night before at

Home Depot. So listen to how Megyn Kelly had this conversation with Nancy Seaman in jail on the phone.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MEGYN KELLY, NBC NEWS: Why didn`t you call the police immediately to tell them what had happened?

SEAMAN: OK, anyone who knows me, knows why I bought the hatchet the night before. For 31 years, I did all the yard work at three of our homes. And

that is what I did. I bought that hatchet, because I had not done my regular fall maintenance on the yard. Megyn, if I wanted to kill my

husband, I didn`t need to go to a store to buy anything. I lived in a house with hammers and wrenches and crow bars, and tire irons. And I had

access to guns. No one is going to believe that it`s logical for a woman to buy a hatchet and engage in a face to face confrontation with someone

who`s going to overpower her. It just doesn`t make any sense.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Well, the jury didn`t agree. And Nancy was convicted of first degree murder. And Judge McDonald reduced it to second degree murder. But

he did it eight years later. Judge McDonald is with me live as well. Judge, I am so curious about your decision, and the reason behind your

decision. Especially eight years, look I have seen -- eight months, excuse me, not eight years, eight months. I have seen things happen after the

fact, right, I have seen juries deliver their decision. And I have seen judges that don`t concur with that decision. So that is not unusual. But

eight months later, why and how did that happen?

JUDGE JOHN MCDONALD, OVERSAW SEAMAN TRIAL: Well, first of all, it`s the first time I ever did anything like this kind of cases. And I can really

recall at least ten first degree murder cases. I`ve had hundreds of cases. And I can vividly recall at least ten first degree murder cases. I had

never had any second thoughts about ever changing a jury verdict, because the jury is the trier of fact. I am just one person and my opinion

shouldn`t override 12 other people. What happened was after the verdict came in, and let me say this, too, I agree with Maria -- is it Maria

Osborne? I am sorry.

BANFIELD: Yes. Maria Osborne.

MCDONALD: OK. I agree, she was a very unsympathetic witness. She seemed very reserved, almost stoic, and showed very little emotion and when she

did show emotion, it looked like feigned. That is from my stand point. But after the verdict came in, the expert witness, (inaudible) one of the

foremost expert on battered women syndrome, I think she coin phrase, she case law in Michigan stands to the proposition, and I don`t have the case

in front of me, but I think I`m quoting it exactly, is the expert may not opine that the woman is a battered woman, nor may the expert opine that the

man is a batterer.

So Dr. Lenora Walker was kind of limited in her testimony in that respect. She couldn`t say it`s my opinion that Nancy Seaman was battered and it`s

also my opinion that Mr. Seaman was a batterer. She did describe, in general terms, some of the traits, behaviors and attributes of women who

are battered. For instance, they have a tendency to cover up the bruises. They have very little self-confidence, I guess from years and years of

abuse.

BANFIELD: Judge, can I jump in for a moment? Only in the matter of time. That is to -- am I wrong, if I say this, you did not like the law in

Michigan that said that her expert could not go far and connect the dots between her husband being a batterer and causing her to do this, and

therefore you took the action that you did, and that those who sought to overrule what you did and suggest that you were abusing your power said you

can`t do that, you can deal with procedure in your courtroom, but you can`t deal with law. You can`t decide you don`t like law and overturn a jury

verdict. Is that wrong?

MCDONALD: No, it`s not wrong. You`re correct.

BANFIELD: So why --

MCDONALD: It`s not that I didn`t like the law. It`s the fact that I felt that the jury heard more testimony with respect to Nancy Seaman they

probably would have understood exactly the actions that she took and why she took them.

[18:30:06] JUDGE JOHN MCDONALD, OVERSAW SEAMAN TRIAL: Her defense really was self-defense.

BANFIELD: So can I...

MCDONALD: And battered woman was part of that self-defense. Go ahead, I`m sorry.

BANFIELD: Can I ask you this?

MCDONALD: Sure.

BANFIELD: I mean, she was convicted in 2005, which is certainly not the stone age when it comes to this. I mean, we`ve had Hollywood block

busters, and movie like Farrah Fawcett and The Burning Bed, which really highlighted the victim of abuse turning on her abuser.

But in this case there is this ground swell to get her out of prison, from her sentence, and you back this. Would you be safe -- would you feel safe,

would you feel that the community was safe if she were released today?

MCDONALD: Oh, absolutely. No, I received -- right after the trial, many, many letters in support of her, fellow teachers, students of teachers

saying she was the most wonderful woman, peaceful lady, willing to help everyone out. Would I feel safe? I`d feel safe if I had -- still had

minor children, have her baby sit my children. That`s how safe I feel.

BANFIELD: Wow.

MCDONALD: Yes, I would. And the psychologist at the Department Of Corrections, Nels Thompson who ran tests on her, he came to the same

opinion, he said this woman is not a criminal. She does not belong in prison for the rest of her life.

And I guess I took that small step. What I did was I felt that premeditation and deliberation was not shown because of the -- because her

state of mind. And therefore I reduced it to second degree.

BANFIELD: It is such a fascinating story. And I can`t tell you, Judge McDonald, how much I appreciate you coming on the air because we don`t get

judges very often.

We don`t get to interview judges, especially about decisions. So I really appreciate you helping me sort of muddle through this. It was very

confusing for me. And I appreciate your candor as well. May I just say that? And I thank you for your service that you have given.

MCDONALD: Thank you very much. And the only way I can do this interview is because I`m now retired.

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: Oh, I understand.

MCDONALD: Or else I wouldn`t be able to do it.

BANFIELD: And we still have trouble getting judges, even when they`re retired. So God bless you. And I hope we can talk to you again when we

find out what happens in Marie`s case.

Thank you -- rather, Nancy`s case, and my thanks also to Marie, (Inaudible) as well. We`re just out of time. Otherwise I could talk about this all

day.

OK. So I just have this other chilling story, a discovery that was made in a very remote and inaccessible corner of Washington State. They were the

remains of this little girl, 10-year-old Lindsey Baum.

Lindsey was last seen in 2009 more than 100 miles away when she left a friend`s house to walk home, which is something all our kids do, right, all

the time. So how did she disappear? Who took her, and who left her in that remote location? That`s next.

[18:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: If you`re a parent, you are intimately familiar with the question, can so and so sleep over tonight? And clearly sometimes the

answer is no, right, even during the summer months. The answer was no for 10-year-old Lindsey Baum who wanted to spend the night at her friend`s

house.

So when play time was finally over, she started off for home. It was only just a couple blocks away. But Lindsey Baum never made it home. And that

was almost 10 years ago. And the search for her, for any sign of Lindsey, has been excruciating for Lindsey`s own parents who have been forced to

just picture what might have happened to their little girl.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MELISSA BAUM, LINDSEY BAUM`S MOM: I feel it in my heart, that she is still alive. I don`t think she`s hurt. Why would they keep here in McCleary?

Whoever took her took the free way and just let her go. You know, just give her a chance, let her come home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Tonight, Lindsey is finally home, but she is no longer alive. And her mother was tragically right. Lindsey did leave her hometown

because her bones were found over a hundred miles away.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF RICK SCOTT, GRAYS HARBOR COUNTY: We`ve brought Lindsey home. We`ve recovered her. Sadly, she was not recovered as we, and her family

had hoped, and prayed these last nine years. Her remains were recovered in September of 2017, unknowingly, by some hunters in a remote portion of

eastern Washington.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Now that Lindsey`s remains have been identified, the grieving process can finally begin. And so can the hunt for her killer. And at

this point the entire community is invested in this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENNETH STROZKY, SAW LINDSEY THE DAY SHE DISAPPEARED: Just a sad, sad story, a lot of tears. We`ve seen her walking down our road all the time.

And that day we did see her going that way, never officially saw her going that way.

[18:40:04] And God, hope they find him, whoever it was.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I have a personal connection to this story as well. Because eight years ago, I was in McCleary, and I interviewed Lindsey`s mom,

Melissa, and I walked that route from the friend`s house to Lindsey`s house, I stopped at that gas station where she is likely to have

disappeared, the last place she was seen.

And I talked to the police officers as well. And I remember the hope that Melissa had, that she was going to find her daughter. She was going to

find her daughter alive. And so this is just absolutely heartbreaking to hear this news today.

Joining me now, Freelance Reporter Dillon Honcoop, also certified death investigator, Joseph Scott Morgan is still with me, and defense attorney

Jeff Gold is still with me as well. Dillon, I would like to begin with you in the discovery. The place where Lindsey`s remains were found is not a

place many people go. It`s only at the terrain hunters can navigate. Can you take me there and tell me a little bit about where she was found and

how she was found?

DILLON HONCOOP, FREELANCE REPORTER: Well, this is just basically over the cascades from Seattle. As the crow flies, as you would say, way off the

beaten path, as far from I-90 or any highways, any roads whatsoever, other than some very secluded logging road type areas.

It`s on the edge of the Mount Rainier wilderness actually. So it`s a really rugged area. And as we`ve been hearing, her remains were discovered

by hunters. Really, those are the only people who typically go into that area are hunters.

And there are only seasonally, of course, when hunting is on. So this is - - this is the scene here, high cliffs, heavily wooded areas, deep ravines, and almost no one goes there. It`s about as far out of the way as you can

get.

BANFIELD: And 150 miles away from her mother, which is, you know, the most tragic separation in this story. The Grays Harbor County Sheriff Rick

Scott had a couple of things to say about this part of the story being solved.

She`s no longer missing. But the next part of the story that is on fire. I want you to have a listen to what he had to say about the homicide

investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT: Our focus now is to solve a kidnapping homicide. For the last nine years, we`ve not been able to say definitively what this was beyond it was

a missing child.

And certainly the prayers, and hopes of the family was that we would some day find her alive, and bring her home. Now the reality is we need to find

a homicide suspect. Until we bring the monster that`s responsible for this, and hold them accountable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Well, they worked hard at this. They`ve looked into over 40 different people. They have executed over 20 different search warrants.

And, you know, Melissa Baum, Lindsey`s mom, said the sad part of this is that all of her neighbors, everybody -- everybody is effectively a suspect

in all of this. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BAUM: Everybody`s a suspect. I mean, I look at everybody differently now. I don`t really trust anyone because it could be absolutely anybody.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Dillon, the -- at the time that I was covering this story, eight years ago, much was made about the video that the police released showing a

man in a plaid shirt, and a man in a brown shirt in pickup truck. Did that amount to anything?

Did they ever find those two men, and at least exclude them, or are they still phantom characters out there still -- you know, that they want to

question?

HONCOOP: Well, we don`t know obviously the names of all of the persons of interest, or potential persons of interest. We do know that they talked

with those people, and again this one 74-year-old man, they searched his home, he apparently had provided inconsistent statements.

That`s about all we know about what their investigation turned up. None of this has amounted to anything at this point. And all the searching around

the McCleary, et cetera, obviously came up fruitless...

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: They`re searching -- they searched a man whose business was on that route, that walking route, that went -- you know, from the friend`s

house, she had to walk down the street, she had to pass the gas station, take a right, and head towards her street.

It was just a couple of blocks, and they searched a man`s business along that route, but they also searched a storage unit of his, and the home of

his. Did that just amount to nothing?

HONCOOP: From what we`re told at this point, not enough to bring anybody in, not enough to name anyone. They had some video from a Shell station.

They wanted to talk to this guy in a plaid shirt that you had mentioned. None of this, again, has turned into anything at this point.

BANFIELD: Yes, and they also had a tip of a young girl at a rest stop with an older man, and that matched Lindsey`s description. And it turned out it

was not Lindsey. I have to take a quick break, but when we come back after the break, I`m going to drill down on another very disquieting aspect of

this case.

[18:45:06] Because not far away lived the Emery brothers, three old men, all brothers, living together, with some filth, and disgusting pornography,

foul pictures of rape, and of little girls, and shoes, and a manifesto saying that little girls should die in these shoes, condoms, underwear.

What happened with those brothers? And how does it relate to this case? That`s next.

[18:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: We`re still talking about Lindsey Baum, the 10-year-old who went missing from Washington State nine years ago. And while Lindsey Baum`s

friends were all growing up, and going on their first dates, and then heading off to prom, and then leaving for college, Lindsey was likely

decomposing over a hundred miles away from the place where she should have been doing all of those things.

She would have been 19 tonight. And now we know where she`s been, maybe all of this time, in a remote wooded location, frequented mostly by

hunters. My panel is still with me. I want to ask you, Joe Morgan, if I can, the issue of the decomposition.

We don`t know if she`s been there the whole nine years. And we don`t know the condition they found the body in. And they are not releasing that

information just yet. But in terms of trying to find something to connect her to her killer, how difficult is this task?

JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, PROFESSOR OF FORENSICS, JACKSONVILLE STATE UNIVERSITY: Well, from just a physical science perspective, I think that -- I think

that, you know, what everybody is going to fleet to here is going to be DNA, and at this point, nine years down range in exposed environment, a

very harsh environment, I might add, it`s going to be very different -- difficult rather.

And we`re talking about the thing that we would fleet to most often are things like touch DNA. That will have been gone for some time now. Of

course one of the things that I don`t understand is when they say they stumbled across the remains. I don`t exactly know what that means.

I don`t know if the body was partially buried, if the body had been cocooned in some way, or if the remains are just lying bare on top of a bed

of pine needles. So, also, we have to consider, was there any other physical evidence that was left behind?

Items that could have connectivity back to some of the perpetrators, something that was very, very personal. Or, on the other perspective, are

there items that someone might have in their -- in their possession that might have belonged to this little angel.

BANFIELD: So the -- before I went to break I mentioned the Emery brothers, Charles, Thomas, and Edwin Emery.

MORGAN: Right.

BANFIELD: They were three elderly brothers who all lived together at one point. Charles, 82-years-old, Thomas 80-years-old, Edwin is 78. When they

raided the properties of these brothers, they found the most obscene, and disgusting evidence that effectively ended up with charges against all

three of them.

Two of them pled guilty. One of them is not competent to stand trial. But nothing in relation to Lindsey Baum`s case. And I`ll bring you in, Jeff

Gold, on this one, because now that they have Lindsey Baum`s body, and you just heard, Joe Morgan, who knows what condition they found her in.

Is it possible they may be able to make the link to some of the underwear, there`s used children`s underwear that they found at these men`s home.

JEFF GOLD, LEGAL ANALYST: Having the remains now is all the difference. There may be things that -- there might be marks on bones, for example,

they can connect to something in the home of these...

BANFIELD: By the way, I need to -- I failed to give a link here between these three brothers, and this child. Her missing poster was found at

their home. So that`s why the Spidey senses go off the charts.

GOLD: I mean, we don`t think there`s anything obvious like the remains had these little penny loafers or something.

BANFIELD: Right.

GOLD: But there`s connections that could never be made before. Now we have remains of some sort. When -- how long have the remains been there,

the condition of them, there may be injuries that are noticed on the bones if there`s just bones. So a lot of new information is available.

BANFIELD: Yes, certainly more than we had before. My thanks to Dillon Honcoop, and Joe Morgan, as always. And, Jeff, I`m going to ask you to

stay if can. I have one word to say to you, and that is Fortnite. You know the game. You know the moves.

Boy, do your children if you don`t, my god. So this guy apparently knows the moves in the game too, it seems. But this guy is an alleged thief who

was so excited about getting in, he danced before he even got out.

[18:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: One More Thing for you tonight, something I see around my house all the time. It drives me crazy. It`s the game Fortnite. You know what

I`m talking about parents. This is the robot emote doing the happy dance. You know, do you kids? You know these moves and all the other emote.

And it looks like there`s some fellow who also knows these moves, that guy -- that guy caught on camera breaking into a Fresno office building.

Police say the celebration dance of this guy, the robot, a little early because he was caught. And he`s now cooling his heels charged with

possession of stolen property, and providing false information. But you know what, there`s nothing like seeing Fortnite playing out live with

criminals. It drives me crazy.

Next hour of CRIME & JUSTICE starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD (voice-over): She is behind bars for killing her on and off boyfriend.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I killed my boyfriend in self-defense.

BANFIELD: Shooting him right in the kisser.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He wants to get a nose job. Just like that person and I shot him right here. I gave him a nose job he wanted.

BANFIELD: But apparently she has found love in a hopeless place.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is just crazy, crazy talk.

BANFIELD: Is she planning to marry a transgender inmate?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m going to be talked about for many years.

BANFIELD: Why the authorities may not wish them well.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We need to keep our focus on the trial.

BANFIELD: And how the happy couple is fighting back.

Cold-blooded killer?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You weren`t afraid to take a hatchet to him?

BANFIELD: Or battered wife.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He would constantly belittle my mother.

BANFIELD: Even her own sons couldn`t agree.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was also physical abuse.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My mom was never an abused wife.

BANFIELD: But she`s serving life in prison.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was an accident. He`s dead. He shouldn`t be dead.

BANFIELD: For butchering her husband with a hatchet.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just wanted him to stop hurting me.

BANFIELD: Her former judge now says she should be free.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was a batter.

BANFIELD: Even though she covered up the crime.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was ready to leave him.

BANFIELD: And the decades long search for a 10-year-old girl.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have brought Lindsey home.

BANFIELD: Turned into a hunt for her killer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why would they keep her in McCleary?

BANFIELD: Why her body was found more than 100 miles from her home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her remains were recovered unknowingly by some hunters.

BANFIELD: And who investigators want to talk to first.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good evening. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. And thank you for joining us on the second hour of CRIME & JUSTICE.

Relationships are hard, even when you are in the real world. But go ahead and try a relationship in jail. When you are facing 40 years because you

shot your ex in the face. That`s what one Kentucky woman was once convicted of doing to her on and off again boyfriend. And that guilty

verdict was thrown out. But Sheens Hebrew (ph) has reportedly found some new love behind bars while awaiting a brand new trial nearly six years

after firing those deadly shot.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Campbell County 911.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ma`am, I have -- I killed my boyfriend in self- defense.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, hold on, hold on. What did you kill him with?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God, a loaded gun in the house.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where are you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m standing about ten feet from his dead body.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, are you sure that he`s dead?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s dead, ma`am. He`s completely dead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And how long ago did you shoot him?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know, ten minutes, maybe not even that long.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ten or 15 minutes ago?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. And because he was twitching and I knew he was going to die anyway, and he was making funny noises, I shot him a couple

more times to kill him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You shot him a couple more times after that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you shot him instead of calling 911?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do what? Yes, I did. Because he was going to die anyway. It was pretty bad. He was like -- he was just twitching and he

was pretty much dead.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: Do what now? You shot him again? You heard her say it. She said she did it in self-defense, but the police would soon start to see, as

did the jury in that first trial, that Sheena Hebrews (ph), she can put on one hell of a show.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did it, yes, I did it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Kind like Jody Arias, right? So reminiscent of Jody, even these pictures.

During her time at the police station, Sheena began to wonder if she would ever date again because she even seemed to know she`d be going to jail for

this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know if anyone will ever want to marry me if they hear that I killed my boyfriend in self-defense. It`s not funny, but

--.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Yes, not funny, not but funny at all. It turns out jail might have been the very the place that Shana was supposed to find her soul mate,

though because she has just asked to marry a fellow prisoner, this prisoner, an inmate named Richard McBee, who is reportedly transgender and

also goes by the name Unique Taylor. And Shana is dishing all about it tonight.

I want to bring in Craig McKee, an anchor of CNN affiliate WCPO. Also criminologist and behavior analyst Casey Jordan and defense attorney Jeff

with me live.

Firs to you, Craig. You did the interview. You got the interview with Shayna Hubers in jail. Can you tell me what things were like in that

interview?

[19:05:32] CRAIG MCKEE, ANCHOR, CNN AFFILIATE WCPO (on the phone): I would say that Shana came across as somebody who was extremely in love with

Unique Taylor. I asked her specifically, was this a publicity stunt? Did it have anything to do to derail her trial that`s scheduled for August?

And she emphatically said no, this is not a publicity stunt. This is not BS. We genuinely love each other. And have love for one another and told

Richard is my soul mate.

BANFIELD: Richard is my soul mate. Richard, who also goes as Unique Taylor as well in a female facility. She`s in female facility. So I do

want to run this moment for your interview. And congratulations by the way for getting this interview.

This is -- right after you asked her, how did you meet this guy? It is a little odd, right? How did you meet this guy?

MCKEE: Right.

BANFIELD: Keeping in mind we just heard her say, you know, in that police interrogation room, who is going to want to be with me once they find out,

you know, I have shot my ex. Have a listen to this clip and let the viewers play along.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I originally met McBee two years ago when I was taken to a recreation yard that was next to Unique`s cell. And we just began

talking. And that was how it happened.

MCKEE: You did have a quote. You said I don`t know if anyone will ever want to marry me if they know that I killed a boyfriend in self-defense.

But here you are filing a marriage license, which means you found someone.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s true.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So a couple of things here, Craig. Shana refers to this new love of hers as two different names. She says McBee, that`s the last name.

But she also says Unique. That`s Richard McBee`s transgender name, the name that Richard now identifies with. So is Richard identifying as a

woman now because she signs both names.

MCKEE: Richard McBee, who goes by Unique Taylor prefers to be called Unique Taylor. One thing throughout the interview, and one thing that

Shana actually admits is that she calls Unique a number of different names, McBee, or Unique, or Richie, or Richard. So she, even during the

interview, periodically switches things up.

And I did ask her, actually, during the interview, you know, how is this relationship different than the one you had with Ryan Posten? And she said

maybe years ago that wasn`t the right person so we didn`t understand each other as well and Unique and I understand each other a lot better.

BANFIELD: I`m having trouble figuring out how a jail inmate in the female unit can strike up a relation with a jail inmate in the men`s unit. First

of all, like that to me flourish me. She said it was through the recreation yard. So maybe they can talk through some walls.

MCKEE: That was the initial contact. And then at least what they say, handwritten letters that they would send to one another. But then also,

the internal phone system they would use to speak to one another as well within the jail.

BANFIELD: So that`s definitely against rules. You definitely can figure your way around it, Craig. But there is this -- our source says that this

relationship has hit the skids, and that this marriage will likely not happen. Are you hearing the same things?

MCKEE: There are a couple different sources that are saying that once we did the interview, that she began to, for lack of a better word, some of

the words that were used, kind of freak out a little bit about some of the stuff that she was conveying and discussing. And so, we will just have to

wait and see.

We know that from the county clerk that the marriage license, the application process was started. The clerk then sent the paperwork back

just for additional information that was missed that was required on the application for anyone. And he says, you know, once he receives all the

information, he will issue the marriage license.

BANFIELD: We will see. We`ll see if this actually -- go ahead.

MCKEE: I said if this goes through, if the marriage license is approved, then what will you do? And the bottom line is, it`s constitutionally

protected. And if they want to get married and the marriage license is issued, then they will figure out logistics on how to make it happen.

BANFIELD: Yes. They don`t get conjugal visits though. They are not going to be able to see each other like that.

I want to read what Unique Taylor said to your station because I mean, it really said what`s in Unique/Richard`s mind-set. And I say both names

because he signs both names. He used both names on the documents. And we get this often documents. And then this stuff if from you, guys.

If I had to create the perfect girl and then spend the rest of my life with her, I would create Shayna Hubers. She is at the top of ever list there

is. She is brilliant, funny, talented, compassionate, loving, and she has an otherworldly beauty. I want to spend the rest of my life with her, and

I will.

So here`s what`s fascinating, Craig, her attorneys, as well as the other side, the prosecutors, because she`s going back to a retrial apparently we

are very, very interested in getting the information from these interviews. Did they come after you to say give us the tapes?

[19:10:47] MCKEE: The day after the interview, I had a couple different voice mails, one obviously from the prosecutor`s office, the other from

Shayna Huber`s attorneys and Shayna`s attorney asked, you know, to verify that this interview did happen which I did. And they didn`t request --

they did suggest that they were going to subpoena the interview or anything of that nature.

The commonwealth attorney, though, Michelle Snodgrass, she did tell me on the phone that she plans to file s subpoena to get a copy of the interview.

What we plan to do is actually tomorrow on our You Tube channel and some other platforms that we have tied to the station, we plan to release the

entire interview to the public so everyone else can see it in full.

BANFIELD: Well, you are going to have to comeback because we want to see more of this. It is amazing. And some of the -- only tape we have seen in

your interview was Shayna in the interrogation room which was entertaining to say the least.

Here is Shayna talking about what it`s going to be like in jail, will I be able to shower? Oh, have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you go to jail, are you allowed to keep your phone, can you shower there, or do you just get really dirty? Do I have to

shower in front of people? Oh, my God.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Casey Jordan, I can`t even -- I don`t even know where to begin to ask you questions. Just tell me, who is this woman to you?

CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST, BEHAVIORAL ANALYST: I love how you compared her to Jody Arias earlier because she is the poster child for a personality

disorder (INAUDIBLE). She is attention seeking.

But listen. This was never an interrogation because they couldn`t get a word in edgewise. They couldn`t even ask a question because she spent 92

minutes just spewing, you know, ideas and thoughts and basically a confession. And she did it on the 911 phone call.

I mean, this is a girl who really, not only has she no filter, but she quite seriously is digging her own grave. The only reason she is getting a

second trial is because of a technicality with a juror. But I really doubt -- she won`t say whether or not she`ll testify. She is going to leave that

as a surprise. This is a girl who wants everyone`s eyes on her at all times.

BANFIELD: It sort of Trump-like, right? You will see. We will see. It will be a surprise. Almost like a reality show.

Jeff Gold, jump in here, if you will, about this notion that she did a TV interview. She has got a trial coming up and it`s a murder trial. Casey

just mentioned it, she was convicted before. And it took them five hours. For a murder case, that is like (INAUDIBLE). This is got to be just like

the worst thing to do.

JEFF GOLD, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, you mentioned Jody Arias, I was this Arizona for both of those trials. Well, Jody Arias also did an

interview with the news media while the jury was out. So it`s just a feature of her being manic or whatever it may be that she wants attention.

This girl on steroids is convicted herself. And I`m sure you are right. She is going to convict herself again.

BANFIELD: And how about this notion that, well, will I take the stand? Well, I`ll make that a surprise. She didn`t take the stand in the first

trial. You think someone like this is going to say, well, it didn`t work out well for me in the first trial. I`ll take the stand in the second?

GOLD: No. But then again, you just never know. Somebody like this wants to tell the story. Thinks they can con you. But I don`t think that`s

going to work.

BANFIELD: it is just unbelievable. And then again, that is the thing about laughing through that police interrogation thing. He always wanted a

nose job so I guess I gave it him, shot him in the face.

GOLD: She shot him instead of calling 911. I didn`t want to watch him die, she said.

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: She said I didn`t want to watch him die so then she shot him more.

BANFIELD: It`s a thing you don`t do.

GOLD: It`s sad.

BANFIELD: And also, when it is self-defense and someone dying on the floor, firing those extra bullets is murder. If you want to put them out

of their misery, it`s still murder. We don`t take them (INAUDIBLE).

I have got to wrap it there.

My thanks to Craig McKee, great interview. Casey Jordan as always, and Jeff Gold, too. Thank you very much.

A Michigan mom convicted of hacking her husband to death with a hatchet. She is now trying to get her sentence reduced. She actually wants it

commuted. So here is a question. Why is there such a ground swell of the community to actually help her do this? Why does everybody now feel like

13 years later she should be out? And how about the judge who put her away? Jumping on board with that too. That judge is joining me next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:20:03] BANFIELD: She was an elementary schoolteacher, a local mom, two grown boys, and a husband of 31 years. She was also a cold-blooded killer.

That`s what a jury decided, anyway, that this woman, 52-year-old Nancy Seaman, should spend the rest of her life behind bars with no possibility

of parole because she butchered her husband to death.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY SEAMAN, CONVICTED OF KILLING HER HUSBAND: I couldn`t fix him, no matter what I did, I couldn`t face him. He was dead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: The jury that sent her to prison would hear how Nancy bought a hatchet at home depot the night before the killing. And struck her husband

with that hatchet nearly 20 times before cleaning up the mess that she had made in the garage, and moving his body to the car. And then driving to

work the next day. Because apparently she did not want either of the children to see this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEAMAN: I can`t let Jeff see his dad like that. He is all broken. He`s all broken on the floor. He`s not moving, and there`s blood everywhere.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Nancy`s now 65 years old, and she is 13 years into her sentence. But there is a movement afoot to free her from prison because more people

believe her side of the story, that Nancy was, in fact, abused by her husband, to the point that she simply had to defend herself.

And the person spearheading the push to get Nancy out of prison is actually the person who made sure she was in prison, the judge who sent her there.

With me now, Marie Osborne. She a news anchor for WJR radio. Also retired Judge John McDonald. He oversaw Nancy Seaman`s trial, and is now

advocating to have her sentence reduced. And defense attorney Jeff Gold is also with me.

So Marie, set the stage for me a little bit first, and explain to me how the trial actually played out. You were there. You covered the trial.

Did anything seem wrong about that result for you, for people in the gallery?

MARIE OSBORNE, NEWS ANCHOR, WJR RADIO (on the phone): Just on a personal note, I did cover the trial from the beginning to the end. And I just

remember being puzzled by the fact that there wasn`t more testimony allowed about this alleged abuse that she suffered. She supposedly suffered her

first beating at the hands of her husband two weeks after they were married. Now, that`s her testimony.

But we weren`t allowed to hear much about that while the jury was in the room. There was much discussion once the jury was taken out of the room as

to how much of this to actually allow into -- for the jury to hear. So she always, on a personal note, she always appeared like a battered woman to

me. But the jury wasn`t allowed to hear a lot of this testimony.

Also, you played a clip here, I think, of her testimony. She, herself, was not a good witness on the stand. She was called to the stand herself, and

she was extremely nervous. You could tell, but she just didn`t make a good case for herself about why she was a battered woman and nearly reacting to

an attack by her husband.

BANFIELD: OK, then, also, Marie, weigh in on her sons. Because the word is, and maybe things changed and, you know, maybe it`s not exactly as I

have come to understand this, but her sons were bifurcated in what they felt happened. Did one believe she killed her husband, and the other

believed that she acted in self-defense? Was it that simple?

OSBORNE: One of the tragedies, I think, of this story, because the two brothers who were adults by now, and in fact one was married, one testified

for the prosecution in this case, and he testified he had never seen any abuse by his father to his mother.

But Nancy testified, and others have said in the past, that she was an expert at covering bruises. She wanted everybody to believe that

everything was OK in her house. And she also wanted her kids to believe that as well. So the one brother testified for the prosecution. The other

brother was for his mother, was on his mother`s side, and did not cooperate at all with the prosecution. And that was made a big point, by the way,

during the trial by the prosecutors.

BANFIELD: So bizarre. I mean, that is absolutely one of the great tragedies of this case.

So now we have this ground swell to commute her sentence, to get her out of prison, to reinvigorate the notion that that was a battered woman, and

acting in self-defense, all after the fact after she has been serving 13 years already. Megyn Kelly of NBC News actually did a jailhouse interview

with Nancy Seaman. And she`s a lawyer. So Megyn is awesome. And she drilled down on that uncomfortable fact that Nancy had purchased the

hatchet the night before. Listen to how Megyn Kelly had this conversation with Nancy Seaman in jail on the phone.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[19:25:13] MEGYN KELLY, NBC NEWS ANCHOR: Why didn`t you call the police immediately to tell them what had happened?

SEAMAN: OK. Anyone who knows me knows why I bought the hatchet the night before. For 31 years, I did all the yard work at three of our homes. And

that`s what I did. I bought that hatchet because I had not done my regular fall maintenance on the yard.

Megyn, if I wanted to kill my husband, I didn`t need to go to a store to buy anything. I lived in a house with hammers and wrenches and crow bars,

and tire irons. And I had access to guns. No one is going to believe that it`s logical for a woman to buy a hatchet and engage in a face to face

confrontation with someone who`s going to overpower her. It just doesn`t make any sense.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Well, the jury didn`t agree. And Nancy was convicted of first degree murder. And Judge McDonald reduced it to second degree murder. But

he did it eight years later. And Judge McDonald is with me live as well.

Judge, I am so curious about your decision, and the reason behind it. Especially eight years -- look, I have seen cases -- eight months, excuse

me, not eight years, eight months. I have seen things happen after the fact, right. I have seen juries deliver their decision. And I have seen

judges that don`t concur with that decision. So that`s not unusual. But eight months later, why and how did that happen?

JUDGE JOHN MCDONALD, OVERSAW SEAMAN TRIAL (on the phone): Well, first of all, it`s the first time I ever did anything like that. I have had

hundreds of cases. And I can vividly recall at least ten first degree murder cases. I had never had any second thoughts about ever changing a

jury verdict because the jury is the trier of fact. I am just one person and my opinion shouldn`t override 12 other people. What happened was after

the verdict came in, and let me say this, too, I agree with Maria -- is it Marie Osborne?

BANFIELD: Yes, Marie Osborne. Yes.

MCDONALD: OK. I agree. She was a very unsympathetic witness. She seemed very reserved, almost stoic, and showed very little emotion. And when she

did show emotion, it looked feigned. This is from my standpoint.

But after the verdict came in, the expert witness, one of the forewomen on battered women syndrome, I think she coined the phrase. Case law in

Michigan stands to the proposition, and I don`t have the case in front of me, but I think I`m quoting it exactly, is the expert may not opine that

the woman is a battered woman, nor may the expert opine that the man is a batter.

So Dr. Lenora Walker was kind of limited in her testimony in that respect. She couldn`t say it`s my opinion that Nancy Seaman was battered and it`s

also my opinion that Mr. Seaman was a batterer. She did describe, in general terms, some of the traits, behaviors and attributes of women who

are battered. For instance, they have a tendency to cover up the bruises. They have very little self-confidence, I guess from years and years of

abuse.

BANFIELD: Judge, can I jump in for a moment? Only in the matter of time. And that is to -- am I wrong, if I say this, you did not like the law in

Michigan that said that her expert could not go far and connect the dots between her husband being a batter and causing her to do this, and

therefore you took the action that you did, and that those who sought to overrule what you did and suggest that you were abusing your power said you

can`t do that, you can deal with procedure in your courtroom, but you can`t deal with law. You can`t decide you don`t like law and overturn a jury

verdict. Is that wrong?

MCDONALD: No, it`s not wrong. You`re correct.

BANFIELD: So why --?

MCDONALD: It`s not that I didn`t like the law. It`s the fact that I felt that the jury heard more testimony with respect to Nancy Seaman they

probably would have understood exactly the actions that she took and why she took them. Her defense really was self-defense. And battered woman

was part of that self-defense. Go ahead, I`m sorry.

BANFIELD: Can I ask you this? I mean, she was convicted in 2005, certainly not the stone age when it comes to this. We`ve had Hollywood

block busters which highlighted the victim turning on her abuser. But in this case there is this ground swell to get her out of prison, commute her

sentence, and you back this. Would you feel safe, would you feel the community was safe if she were released today?

[19:30:03] MCDONALD: Oh, absolutely. No, I received -- right after the trial, many, many letters in support of her, fellow teachers, students of

teachers saying she was the most wonderful woman, peaceful lady, willing to help everyone out. Would I feel safe? I`d be feel safe if I had -- still

had minor children, have her baby-sit my children. That`s how safe I`d feel.

BANFIELD: Wow.

MCDONALD: And -- yes, I would. And the psychologist at the Department of Corrections, Nels Thompson, who ran tests on her, he came to the same

opinion. He said this woman is not a criminal. She does not belong in prison for the rest of her life. And I guess I took that small step. What

I did was I felt that premeditation and deliberation was not shown because of the -- because of her state of mind, and therefore, I reduced it to

second degree.

BANFIELD: It is such a fascinating story, and I can`t tell you, Judge McDonald, how much I appreciate you coming on the air because we don`t get

judges very often. We don`t get to interview judges, especially about decisions. So, I really appreciate you helping me sort of muddle through

this. It was very confusing for me, and I appreciate your candor as well. May I just say that? And I thank you for the service that you`ve given on

the (INAUDIBLE)

(CROSSTALK)

MCDONALD: Thank you very much. And the only reason I can do this interview is because I`m now retired otherwise I wouldn`t be able to do it.

BANFIELD: I understand, and we still have trouble getting judges, even when they`re retired. So, God bless you, and I hope we can talk to you

again when we find out what happens in Maria`s case, thank you -- or in rather Nancy`s case, and my thanks as well to Marie Osborne as well. I`m

just flat out of time. Otherwise, I could talk about this all day. A judge!

OK. So, I just have this other chilling story, a discovery that was made in a very remote and inaccessible corner of Washington State. They were

the remains of this little girl, 10-year-old Lindsey Baum. Lindsey was last seen in 2009 more than 100 miles away when she left a friend`s house

to walk home which is something all our kids do, right, all the time. So, how did she disappear? Who took her and who left her in that remote

location? That`s next.

[19:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: If you`re a parent, you are intimately familiar with the question, can so and so sleep over tonight? And clearly, sometimes the

answer is no, right? Even during the summer months. The answer was no for 10-year-old Lindsey Baum who wanted to spend the night at her friend`s

house. So, when play time was finally over, she started off for home. It was only just a couple blocks away. But Lindsey Baum never made it home,

and that was almost 10 years ago. And the search for her, for any sign of Lindsey, has been excruciating for Lindsey`s own parents who have been

forced to just picture what might have happened to their little girl.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MELISSA BAUM, LINDSEY BAUM`S MOM: I feel it in my heart that she is still alive. I don`t think she`s in McCleary. I don`t -- why would they keep

her in McCleary?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you`re --

BAUM: Whoever took her hit the freeway. Just let her go. You know, give her a chance, let her come home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Tonight, Lindsey is finally home, but she is no longer alive. And her mother was tragically right, Lindsey did leave her hometown because

her bones were found over a hundred miles away.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF RICK SCOTT, GRAYS HARBOR COUNTY: We`ve brought Lindsey home. We`ve recovered her. Sadly, she was not recovered as we and her family had

hoped and prayed these last nine years. Her remains were recovered in September of 2017, unknowingly, by some hunters in a remote portion of

Eastern Washington.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Now that Lindsey`s remains have been identified, the grieving process can finally begin, and so can the hunt for her killer. And at this

point, the entire community is invested in this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENNETH STROZKY, SAW LINDSEY THE DAY SHE DISAPPEARED: Just a sad, sad story, a lot of tears. We seeing her walking down our road all the time.

And that day, we did see her going that way, never officially saw her going that way, and God hope they find him, whoever it was.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I have a personal connection to this story as well because eight years ago, I was in McCleary and I interviewed Lindsey`s mom, Melissa, and

I walked that route from the friend`s house to Lindsey`s house. I stopped at that gas station where she is likely to have disappeared, the last place

she was seen. And I talked to the police officers as well and I remember the hope that Melissa had, that she was going to find her daughter. She

was going to find her daughter alive. And so, this is just absolutely heart-breaking to hear this news today.

[19:40:00] Joining me now, freelance reporter Dillon Honcoop. Also, certified death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan is still with me, and

Defense Attorney Jeff Gold is still with me as well.

Dillon, I`d like to begin with you in the discovery. The place where Lindsey`s remains were found is not a place many people go. It`s really --

only terrain hunters can navigate. Can you take me there and tell me a little bit about where she was found and how she was found?

DILLON HONCOOP, FREELANCE REPORTER: Well, it`s just basically over the cascades from Seattle. As the crow flies, as you would say, way off the

beaten path as far as far from I-90 or any highways, any roads whatsoever other than some very secluded logging road type areas. It`s in -- it`s on

the edge of the Mount Rainier Wilderness actually. So, it`s a really rugged area, and as we`ve been hearing, her remains were discovered by

hunters. Really, those are the only people who typically go into that area, are hunters, and they`re only there seasonally, of course, when

hunting is on. So, that -- this is -- this is the scene here. High cliffs, heavily wooded areas, deep ravines, and almost no one goes there.

It`s about as far out of the way as you can get.

BANFIELD: And 150 miles away from her mother, which is, you know, the most tragic separation in this story. The Grays Harbor County Sheriff Rick

Scott had a couple of things to say about this part of the story being solved. She`s no longer missing but the next part of the story that is on

fire. I want you to have a listen to what he had to say about the homicide investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT: Our focus now is to solve a kidnapping homicide. For the last nine years, we`ve not been able to say definitively what this was beyond it was

a missing child. And certainly, the prayers and hopes of the family was that we would someday find her alive and bring her home. Now, the reality

is we need to find a homicide suspect. Until we bring the monster that`s responsible for this and hold them accountable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Well, they worked hard at this. They`ve looked into over 40 different people. They have executed over 20 different search warrants.

And, you know, Melissa Baum, Lindsey`s mom, said the sad part of this is that all of her neighbors, everybody, everybody is effectively a suspect in

all of this. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BAUM: Everybody is a suspect. I mean, I look at everybody differently now. I don`t really trust anyone because it could be absolutely anybody.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Dillon, the -- at the time that I was covering this story, eight years ago, much was made about the video that the police released showing a

man in a plaid shirt and a man in a brown shirt and a pickup truck. Did that amount to anything? Did they ever find those two men and at least

exclude them, or are they still phantom characters out there still, you know, that they want to question?

HONCOOP: Well, we don`t know obviously the names of all of the persons of interest, or potential persons of interest. We do know that they talked

with those people, and again, this one 47-year-old man, they searched his home. He apparently have provided inconsistent statements. That`s about

all we know about what their investigation turned up there. None of this has amounted to anything at this point, and all the searching around the

McCleary community, et cetera, obviously, came up fruitless as far as finding the remains.

BANFIELD: But, Dillon, the searching -- they searched a man whose business was on that route, that walking route that went -- you know, from the --

from the friend`s house, she had to walk down the street, she had to pass the gas station, take a right and head towards her street. It was just a

couple of blocks. And they searched a man`s business along that route but they also searched a storage unit of his and a home of his. Did that just

amount to nothing?

HONCOOP: From what we`re told at this point, not enough to bring anybody in, not enough to name anyone. They had some video from a Shell station.

They wanted to talk to this guy in a plaid shirt that you had mentioned. None of this, again, has turned into anything at this point.

BANFIELD: Yes, and they also had a tip of a young girl at a rest stop with an older man and it matched Lindsey`s description and it turned out it was

not Lindsey.

I`m going to take a quick break, but when we come back after the break, I`m going to drill down on another very disquieting aspect of this case.

Because not far away lived the Emery brothers, three old men, all brothers, living together, with some filth and disgusting pornography, foul pictures

of rape, and of little girls, and shoes, and a manifesto saying that little girls should die in these shoes, condoms, underwear -- what happened with

those brothers, and how does it relate to this case? That`s next.

[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: We`re still talking about Lindsey Baum, the 10-year-old who went missing from Washington State nine years ago. And while Lindsey Baum`s

friends were all growing up and going on their first dates and then heading off to prom, and then, leaving for college, Lindsey was likely decomposing

over 100 miles from the place where she should have been doing all of those things. She would have been 19 tonight, and now, we know where she`s been.

Maybe all of this time, in a remote wooded location frequented mostly by hunters.

[19:20:21] My panel is still with me. I want to ask you Joe Morgan, if I can, the issue of the decomposition. We don`t know if she`s been there the

whole all nine years, and we don`t know the condition they found the body and they`re not releasing that information just yet, but in terms of trying

to find something to connect her to her killer, how difficult is this task?

JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: Well, from just a physical science perspective, I think that -- I think the, you know, what

everybody is going to fleet to hear is going to be DNA. And at this point, nine years down range and exposed environment, a very harsh environment, I

might add, it going to be very different, very difficult rather. We`re talking about the thing that we would fleet to most often are things like

touch DNA that will have been gone for some time now.

Of course, one of the things that I don`t understand is when they say they stumbled across the remains, I don`t exactly know what that means. I don`t

know if the body was partially buried, if the body had been cocooned in some way, or if the remains are just lying bare and on top of a bed of pine

needles. So, also, we have to consider was there any other physical evidence that was left behind. Items that could have connectivity back to

some of the perpetrators, something that was very, very personal or in the -- on the other perspective, are there items that someone might have in

their -- in their possession that might have belonged to this little angel.

BANFIELD: So, the -- when I before went to break, I mentioned the Emery brothers. Charles, Thomas and Edwin Emery.

MORGAN: Right.

BANFIELD: They were three elderly brothers who all lived together at one point. Charles, 82 years old, Thomas, 80 years old, Edwin, 78. When they

raided the properties of these brothers, they found the most obscene and disgusting evidence that effectively ended up with charges against all

three of them. Two of them plead guilty. One of them is not competent to stand trial but nothing in relation to Lindsey Baum`s case.

I`m -- and I`ll bring you in Jeff Gold on this one because now that they have Lindsey Baum`s body, and you just heard Joe Morgan, who knows what

condition they found her in, is it possible they may be able to make the link to some of the underwear? There`s used children`s underwear that they

found at these men`s homes.

JEFF GOLD, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Having the remains now is all the difference. There may be things that -- there might be marks on bones for example that

can connect to something in the home of these --

BANFIELD: By the way, I need to -- I failed to give a link here between these three brothers and this child. Her missing poster was found at their

home. So, that`s why the spidey senses go off the charts.

GOLD: I mean, we don`t think there is anything obvious like the remains had these little penny loafers or something.

BANFIELD: Right.

GOLD: But there`s connections that could never be made before. Now, we have remains of some sort. When -- were there -- how long have the remains

been there? The condition of them. There may be injuries that are noticed on the bones, if there`s just bones. So, a lot of new information is

available.

BANFIELD: Yes. Certainly more than we had before. My thanks to Dillon Honcoop, and Joe Morgan, as always. And Jeff, I`m going to ask you to stay

if I can. I have one word to say to you and that is Fortnite. You know the game, you know the moves. Boy, do your children if you don`t. My God.

So, this guy apparently noticed the moves on the game, too, it seems. But this guy is an alleged thief who was so excited about getting in, he danced

before he even got out.

[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: We`ve got "ONE MORE THING" for you tonight and it really highlights the popularity of that game that you parents all out there love,

Fortnite. You know that game that your kids play all the time with all these emotes, the ones that dance. All the skins, you know what I`m

talking about? So, it looks like there`s this guy right there who was caught on camera doing kind of the same thing. Doing robot dance. But

this guy was breaking into a Fresno office building and busting the moves before he had actually even made it out. So, that`s kind of weird.

Police say that he just helped himself to an expensive laptop and other items. The celebration was pretty premature though because he`s now

cooling his heels charged with possession of stolen property and providing false information, and he`s being compared to the robot emote on Fortnite.

Or maybe he liked that. No matter what, Fortnite drives me crazy. I`m just going to go on the record. And I know you know what I`m talking about

out there folks if you have kids. I know you know my pain.

I`ll see you back here tomorrow night, 6:00 Eastern. Thanks so much for watching, everybody. "FORENSIC FILES" begins right now.

END