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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield
Designer Kate Spade Found Dead In Her Apartment; Casey Anthony, Back To Court For Defamation; Simple Traffic Stop For A Simple Broken Tail Light Quickly Turned Into A Police Chase, Which Quickly Turned Into An Arrest, Which Quickly Turned Into A Kidnapping Charge; Casey Anthony Is Back In Orlando Courtroom. Aired 6-8p ET
Aired June 05, 2018 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:03] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HOST, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE: Good evening everyone, I`m Ashleigh Banfield. Welcome to "Crime and Justice." Tonight,
a total gut punch. Designer Kate Spade is dead. Sources say her body found at a home this morning in upscale New York. Jean Casarez is tracking
the latest. This is such a shock, Jean.
JEAN CASAREZ, CNN PRIMETIME JUSTICE SHOW GUEST HOST: Ashleigh, the country and the world is shocked. New York Police Department is currently
investigating. They believe it was an apparent suicide.
BANFIELD: All right. We`ll check into more details about what was found, who found her, and what she leaves behind.
Also, is Casey Anthony heading back into a trial? This time not because her daughter was killed, but instead because a man`s reputation was killed.
The man who found little Caylee`s body. Justin Freiman is covering the lawsuit. What is the story here?
JUSTIN FREIMAN, SR. PRODUCER, HLN CNN: That is right. That man who found the body, accusations flying towards him that he might have been involved
in that little girl`s death. But now he wants Casey Anthony to go to court, but not just any court, the same courthouse where she was tried for
the murder of her daughter.
BANFIELD: All of that was a circus. I want to get to details on that in a moment. Justin, don`t go far.
Also, South Carolina, the surgeon with a bit of a stain on his reputation, because he was already accused of killing a colleague, when suddenly his
wife was found dead too. And now an autopsy says she did not die of natural causes. Kyle Peltz is on this case. What is going on in this
story?
KYLE PELTZ, CRIME AND JUSTICE PRODUCER: Well, if she didn`t die of natural causes, then how did she die? This now makes two people who have turned up
dead at this doctor`s home. His attorney said he was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. Two different times.
BANFIELD: Well, the juries don`t love coincidences. But we are not of a jury yet. Kyle, thank you for that. Don`t go far.
Also some people can fall asleep anywhere, especially if they`re had a little too much to drink. Stay close on that picture. Watch what`s coming
up. What? A woman, asleep, and she is lucky to be alive. We will tell you what the circumstances where there.
Later, investigators find the bodies of three dead women at a suspected kidnapper`s home, and now we`re learning a whole lot more. More about this
disturbing back story on this suspect. Was he actually let out of jail just months ago, and did even more women get hurt by this man? There are
so many different stories to tell you about that. We are going to get to that as well.
First, we are going to begin with the gut-wrenching news about Kate Spade and her apparent suicide in her Fifth Avenue, New York apartment. An
American businesswoman with a brand worth billions. She was a celebrated designer, beloved in part because her designs were so bright and so happy.
But it was a very dark morning at Spade`s Upper East Side home where police say her housekeeper discovered the designer. Hanging by a scarf that was
allegedly tied to a door knob. And police say Kate Spade left a note.
They added, the state of the apartment and the comments of that housekeeper now turned witness, made suicide the reasonable conclusion. But why this
American success story would have killed herself is still such a dogging question, for the millions of people who are mourning her tonight.
Including presumably her 13-year-old daughter, who police say Kate Spade addressed in her suicide note.
Joining me now, CNN correspondent, Jean Casarez, and also Michele Ateyeh, was a friend of Kate Spade. And a principal to Angela Cumming`s fine
jewelry and medical examiner and forensic pathologist Dr. William Morrone is also with me. Jean Casarez, let me begin with you. I just want to know
what other details have been coming in since this is such a developing story.
CASAREZ: Well, here`s the latest, we have learned the suicide note was addressed to her daughter. The contents not being revealed, but addressed
to their daughter who we believe is 13 years old. And the medical examiner`s office is still in the midst of a death investigation. They
believe it`s an apparent suicide. But they have not ruled on the manner or cause of death. They are in the midst of it, but they say that they
believe it was a suicide for three reasons. Number one, the note. And what was written in the note. Number two, the condition of the apartment,
which is interesting. And also a witness who talked to -- about the circumstances.
BANFIELD: The housekeeper being a witness?
CASAREZ: I think it is.
BANFIELD: So the condition of the apartment is an unusual detail. Did they elaborate on that? Did they?
CASAREZ: No, they didn`t. They did not at all, but the facts that we know are that she allegedly hanged herself with a scarf on a door knob.
BANFIELD: Look at these people, by the way. You don`t see this typically -- you just don`t see this typically on these beautiful Fifth Avenue
upscale, upper east-side apartments. Look at the paparazzi, look at the media that was there for this really harrowing and grisly scene. And it is
not though this press corps has seen plenty of bodies in New York City. You just don`t typically see them in this kind of circumstance. And I mean
honestly, Jean, look, you and I work at CNN, we`re just blocks away from this area.
This was so jaw-dropping, and apart from Kate Spade being so light and airy and successful, there just didn`t seem to be a negative connection that we
could make to her, that would explain any of this. And I guess I say that because I want to believe she didn`t do this. I want to believe she didn`t
kill herself. And that is why it`s still an open investigation, I`m assuming.
CASAREZ: It is. Let me give you a little bit of a time-line, 10:10 this morning is when NYPD got the call to go to the home. They did. And I told
you what they found. But we know that a little bit after 1:00 is when the medical examiner and EMS went in with the gurney and brought out a body
covered with a sheet. And so there was a time span there. That body stayed in the room. But she was pronounced dead, obviously.
BANFIELD: Let me correct myself as well. It`s Park Avenue, not far from Fifth Avenue. And just as luxurious and beautiful, but Park Avenue is the
location of her home. You can see the famous New York City taxis going by, slowing at a pace where the passengers are wondering, dear god, is that
what I think it is, you know. So there is a little bit of conflicting information. I don`t know that we have the final answer definitive answer
here, but her husband Andrew, the police say he was at the scene. Do we know if he was there the whole time? Do we know if he was called back to
the apartment, because the housekeeper had made this grisly discovery? Do we know if he woke up to the housekeeper saying, dear god, look what I
found?
CASAREZ: I think it`s an open-ended question. The reports are saying, the reports are out there that he was at the apartment this morning. That is
what reports are saying. CNN has not confirmed that yet at this point. But obviously they built a fashion icon together. I mean, this is a couple
that met at the University of Arizona, they went to school together, college sweethearts. She is from Missouri. And when they graduated from
Arizona, they decided to come to the big apple, the big City, to try to make themselves something.
BANFIELD: She was working for a magazine.
CASAREZ: She was working at a magazine. And she decided, there needs to be hand bags. There`s a need for hand bags, and that is how she started,
they started this mega empire.
BANFIELD: It wasn`t just hand bags. It was like, you know, all these fancy designers are making these cluttered designs, and they are just so
overwhelming. I just want a simple bag, you know, that works, that is nice, that is designer. But look at these things, these hand bags came out
and everybody -- I was -- you know, I came of age in the `80s and I thought, I want one of these.
In fact, you know what, can you do me a favor? Can you grab me my wallet out of my bag? I got a wallet 14 years ago, and I`m going to just show
this. So unconventional. It is not the nicest looking thing. This is my wallet for 14 years, Jean. It`s falling apart. I`ve wrecked it. I mean,
I can`t even close it right now. And you probably can`t even read Kate Spade on it. I love it. I don`t know what it is. It`s so simple. It`s
so plain. It is juts, I won`t replace it. Why do I feel attached to this?
CASAREZ: She was like your neighbor next door.
BANFIELD: Just basic.
CASAREZ: That is how she was.
BANFIELD: So, I want to show something, because I think another thing that confuse a lot of us, is that she is so happy and her designs were so simple
and clean and upbeat. There wasn`t anything more or got or anything about them. We don`t get how she could have such turmoil in her life. I want to
show you something from Kate Spade`s apartment tour. She took "People" magazine through her apartment. So, I think you`ll get a feel for her
personality. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATE VALENTINE SPADE; FASHION DESIGNER: Hi, I`m Kate Valentine Spade, welcome to my home. This is my entry hall slash foyer. It was actually
one of the reasons that I bought the apartment, because I loved that you had this breathing space when you walked in the room. And we decided to
fill it, obviously, with a lot of art. And we included our daughter`s work. My family, this is my favorite table, because it`s just crazy
pictures of everybody. OK, does that not look like a Picasso? I don`t know. I love this room. I just feel like its open, it feels like this
uptight stuffy living room that so many people never use. We really live in here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: I can`t see any signs of turmoil in that lovely personality. Michelle Ateyeh, as a friend of Kate`s, is there anything that you could
see? Were there any signs? Did you know of any sadness? Of any mental health issues? Was there anything that gave you any indication this was
possible?
[18:10:06] MICHELLE ATEYEH, FRIEND OF KATE SPADE: No. I must say I didn`t. I must clarify, the friendship that we had, myself as the
President of Angela Cummings Fine Jewelry, and Angela herself, were in the more early years of Kate and the development. We were friends, we were
members of the council of fashion designers of America together. We had spoken with Kate many, many times, maybe for a collaboration of accessories
for Angela Cummings Fine Jewelry development. And Angela had been with tiffany for many years and then we had our own company and we also sold as
Kate did to many of the same vendors such as the Bergdorf Goodman`s, the Fifth Avenue.
BANFIELD: You know, I cover crime show. I don`t cover a lot of fashion, I`m sort of out of the loop. I feel like I`m not one of those very smart
New Yorker who gets it. But I did find this out and I think it`s telling. Last night, the Oscars of fashion apparently were in New York. The council
of fashion designers of America had their awards ceremony last night. Was the -- was she there? Would this have been something that would have
weighed on her in some way?
ATEYEH: It broke my heart when I heard the news today at lunch time. And I was with Brenda Vaccaro, actually, the actress. And she had some
information and said, Mickey, I knew that you knew Kate. And I really broke down at lunch, to tell you the truth. And I also thought, what an
irony that last night was essentially the Oscars of the fashion world, the CFDA.
BANFIELD: Do you know Michelle, do you know if Kate would have been involved, or would have been there?
ATEYEH: I do not know if she was there last night. I suspect she obviously might not have been. And maybe she hasn`t been in the very
recent past, because also after selling her company, I do not know, you know, the last time that she would have been there.
BANFIELD: Listen, that -- you just hit on something.
ATEYEH: You`re onto something.
BANFIELD: And this is what I want to ask. You know the business better than I do, but when I saw that Coach bought Kate Spade for $2.4 billion in
2017, but then I learned that Kate had actually sold everything much earlier than that. And while she made, I think 100-plus million, it`s a
far cry from $2.4 billion, and it`s a far cry from walking down your own streets of New York and looking in those incredible Bergdorf Goodman`s
windows and seeing your name on a bag and realizing billions are being made without me. Is it possible that might have been a part of anything that
led to what`s happened, what transpired in the last 12 hours?
ATEYEH: You know, one can never say. But once you and your company and sell your name, which Carlos Falchi, many, many designers have done, it`s a
slippery slope. So one can never really say. She was still very revered. She was developing new businesses, which was completely amazing. Andy, her
husband, was in the men`s accessory business. So I would say that that was all very, very positive.
BANFIELD: Let me ask William Morrone real quickly if I can, it`s all lost on a lot of people Dr. Morrone that Alexander McQueen, another famous
designer, took his own life in 2010. Lauren Scott, another famous designer took her life in 2014, in the exact same way, with a scarf on a door
handle. Is there something I`m missing about this method of taking one`s life using a scarf on a door handle? Or is it just sheer coincidence?
WILLIAM MORRONE, D.O., MEDICAL EXAMINER AND FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, it might be the fact that it`s a more genteel way and you use what you have
available. Nobody`s going to be using really heavy rope and nobody is going to be damaging their environment. When you look at what they say was
a staged condition and it leans towards the decision of a suicide, it means things were organized. It means things were cleaned. And it means there`s
no sign of a struggle. But the actual lower-level suffocation or hanging was also seen in Robin Williams. People are not going to commit to a
really highly traumatic event. So, low trauma, low impact, and use what you have available.
BANFIELD: So, I want to do something if I can, because I think this has really hit a lot of people, no matter who they are, where they are, all
around the country. A lot of people have weighed in, and I want to read some of the social media if I can. Chelsea Clinton wrote about her first
Kate Spade bag. Obviously it stuck with her. My grandmother gave me my first Kate Spade bag when I was in college. I still have it. Holding
Kate`s family, friends and love ones in my heart.
[18:15:03] Jenna Bush Hager, said I will never forget the first Kate Spade bag I got for Christmas in college. She was a trail blazer. Her life and
death are a reminder that pain doesn`t discriminate. Sending love to her family. And I think, maybe Ivanka Trump might have hit the nail on the
head best of anyone who tweeted today. Because she made this a focus of the National Suicide Prevention helpline. Which we held up for this whole
segment. Ivanka Trump said, Kate Spade`s tragic passing is a painful reminder that we never truly know another`s pain or the burden they carry.
If you are struggling with depression and contemplating suicide, please, please seek help. And embedded in her tweet was the National Suicide
Prevention Life Line. You can see the phone number at the bottom of your screen as well, 800-273-8255. Josh Rogan, depression does not discriminate
and comes without warning. RIP Kate Spade, love to her family. National Suicide Prevention Life Line and he gave the number as well.
There were celebrities like Lina (inaudible), Reese Witherspoon weighing in as well as hundreds of others who have said condolences to Kate Spade. I
think it touched a lot of people. The investigation continues. My thanks to all of my guests.
Nearly seven years removed from being acquitted in the murder of her daughter Caylee, Casey Anthony`s legal troubles seemed to be largely in the
rearview mirror, but look again, they might not be. Casey might just be headed to that same Orlando courthouse. We`ll tell you why next.
[18:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: If you had access to a TV between, say, May of 2011 and July of 2011, you saw Casey Anthony every day. All day. On trial for the murder
of her daughter Caylee Marie. There she was, stoned face young woman, seated stoically, accused of murdering her little 2-year-old daughter
Caylee and hiding that little girl`s body in the woods. And you may have been looking for signs that she did it. You may have focused on her facial
expressions or her body language, or what seemed like an apparent lack of remorse. But the jury, they focused on the lack of evidence. And Casey
Anthony was famously acquitted of that murder. And tonight she is out, walking free. But soon she could be headed back to court and not just any
court, that same courthouse in Orlando. Because of the man who found little Caylee`s dead body.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROY KRONK, UTILITY WORKER THAT FOUND CAYLEE`S BODY: A little bit further up, you can tell someone ran across it with a mower, but the weeds are
still behind that area. There`s a fallen tree that looks like someone had tried to cut on it at some point. That there was a white board hanging
across the tree and there was something round and white underneath of it. And I don`t know what it is, but it just didn`t look like something that
should be there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: That is the voice of Roy Kronk and there he is. He may have come off like a hero in that call. The local meter reader whose testimony
became pivotal at Casey Anthony`s trial. But he himself was painted by Casey`s attorneys as the villain in this story. And he was painted that
way for months as Casey`s team continually pointed the finger at him. They claimed that he just might have been the one who killed little baby Caylee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Kronk is a morale bankrupt individual who actually took Caylee`s body and hit her. And anything that you derive from the
scene of suburban drive is completely unreliable, because of the actions of Mr. Kronk.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Well, Kronk actually got pretty angry at that and sued for defamation, mere months after all of that came out in court by Jose Baez,
her attorney. But then Casey Anthony did something else. She was acquitted and she ended up filing for bankruptcy. And Mr. Kronk`s lawsuit
was put on pause, because you can`t get money from a stone, right? But guess what. The play button may soon be pressed again. And this requires
some explanation.
So joining me now, some of the best people on the case, Steve Helling, senior writer with "People" magazine who spent day after day after day in
that courtroom, covering the case. He is also the author of "Outrage, the Casey Anthony story." Also my seatmate in that courtroom, former
prosecutor and WFTV legal analyst, Bill Sheaffer is with me as well, and trial attorney, Monique Presley joins me as well.
Thank you to all of you for being a part of this story, because this story it just doesn`t go away. Steve Helling, my seatmate in the Casey Anthony
trial, I`m going to get you back onto the story. Please explain to me why it`s taken so incredibly long for a simple civil case like defamation to go
forward. And if it`s defamation about calling him a killer, why wasn`t that sort of open and shut?
STEVE HELLING, SENIOR WRITER, PEOPLE MAGAZINE: Well, you know, this case was filed five months after she was acquitted, so we are talking back at
the end of 2011. And it kind a went on in everything and then she filed for bankruptcy. And once she did that that put everything on pause, as you
said before. And so, Roy Kronk has been waiting, he has just been sitting and waiting and waiting for the right time. And then in this bankruptcy
case, then there was -- you know, Casey basically filed something saying, no, I didn`t defame him, so that is what this motion is in answer to.
Pretty much he is ready to bring it back to court. And probably the same court as you and I sat in for months.
BANFIELD: I hope we get the assignment and sit again together. But at the same time, I`m not sure I can go through all that again, Steve. I`m not
sure I can stomach the whole thing.
HELLING: I`m totally done. Exactly. You know, I think the bottom line is, the question will be, you know, was he defamed. Obviously that is what
he says he was. You know, he wants to have his day in court and he hasn`t had it yet. And he feels like it`s high time to have it. I mean, that was
seven years ago that we were sitting together in court. Seven years ago today we were in there. So you have to figure that he is ready to have his
day.
BANFIELD: Yes, that is like two husbands, two middle school and elementary schools ago and a whole bunch of other lifetimes ago for me. I don`t know
about you.
HELLING: A lot of changes.
BANFIELD: Lot of changes. Bill, look, I don`t want to get into all the complex stuff about bankruptcy court, because that is really tricky stuff.
But it`s a simple story. Casey Anthony`s lawyer, Jose Baez, went as far as almost calling him a murderer and said he was morally bankrupt and made all
these accusations in that courtroom that you and I also sat together in. But don`t you have some kind of protection when you`re in litigation? You
can say certain things in a case and not have to fear defamation. And why is that wrong? Why in this particular case has Roy Kronk`s case not been
dismissed, that there is a chance you can`t do that in a court of law?
BILL SHEAFFER, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, you`re absolutely right. If you`re in a court of law and it`s during a judicial proceeding that you
make these type of statements, you`re immune from being held liable. The problem for these lawyers and Casey Anthony is that they made these
allegations outside of the courtroom to the media or others that would listen. You don`t have immunity as a lawyer if you make accusations
outside a judicial proceedings and that is what`s coming back to haunt them at this point in time.
BANFIELD: Well, that makes perfect sense. While we show the clip in the courtroom, it was all the stuff he said outside that courthouse that you
know, constitutes the problem. So here is the other issue. Whenever you`re talking about -- and again, you`re the lawyer here, not me.
Whenever you`re talking about defamation, you have to prove that what is said is untrue, right? And in Casey`s case, she is probably the least
believable person in America. Just based on the provable lies that she told, the exquisite lying techniques. I have a perfect example of it right
now on the 911 call. This 911 call is made when we already know, by her own lawyer`s opening statement, that that baby is dead. But here`s how she
reports her now 31-day missing child to 911. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you last saw her a month ago?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 31 days. From 31 days.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who has her? Do you have a name?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her name is Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who is that? Babysitter?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She is been my nanny for about a year and a half, almost two years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Yes, that is just a big fat lie. That is such a big fat lie that Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez sued Casey Anthony for defamation. And
because of a technicality and you know, the way the law and the code is written, that was actually dismissed. So, she didn`t prevail. Zenaida
Gonzalez did not prevail, but there was no abduction of that baby by, you know, Zenaida Gonzalez. So we know Casey`s a big fat liar. How can you
actually defend a case if you are a liar and this is all about defamation?
SHEAFFER: Well, what the lawyers have to prove is that her lawyers, acting as her agents, made willful statements about Roy Kronk, that were malicious
and harmful to him, that injured him. If the jury were to determine that, then they, Roy Kronk, --
1830
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
[18:30:00] BILL SHEAFFER, FORMER PROSECUTOR: -- about Roy Kronk, that were malicious and harmful to him, that injured him. If the jury were to
determine that, then they -- Roy Kronk could recover.
The bankruptcy judge, by the way, has to make a determination whether or not it was a malicious and willful, these defamatory statements made by her
agents. If he rules that they aren`t, then his lawsuit gets dismissed because you can`t recover. It will be discharged in bankruptcy.
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CRIME AND JUSTICE SHOW HOST, HLN: When you call somebody morally bankrupt and you yell it on television, that`s pretty
damaging stuff. Hold on one second. I want to play one more piece of Casey Anthony, the exquisite liar.
Here she is talking to her mother. This is what made her so famous at the beginning of this whole saga, the way she was so good at lying, even to her
own mom. Have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think after this long she`d still be local?
CASEY ANTHONY, FLORIDA MOM ACQUITTED OF KILLING DAUGHTER: There`s a possibility.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s your gut telling you right now?
ANTHONY: That she`s OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And your gut tells you that she`s close or she`s hiding?
ANTHONY: She`s not far. I know in my heart she`s not far. I can feel it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Well, she wasn`t far because she was dead, close to your home. Admittedly. Monique Pressley, you can`t get blood from a stone. It`s the
old adage and we all know it. So why would anyone bothers suing Casey Anthony?
Because Casey hasn`t got a penny. Casey is barely employable. Casey sold her life rights story. So even if she sits down there with (ph) $10 million
interview, she doesn`t own that money. She sold it. So why bother going through all of this?
MONIQUE PRESSLEY, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Her brokeness really has nothing to do with it, same way in my opinion whether she`s a liar or not has nothing to
do with this case. Jose Baez is far from broke.
And so anyone who`s suing and trying to succeed here is banking on the fact that if they`re successful, it`s not just a lawsuit that involves Casey
Anthony, it`s the defense team`s theory, the theory that they offered and made public in order to prevent her from being found guilty.
And I disagree actually with a good bit of what was said previously. I think that if these lawyers, this isn`t Jose`s first rodeo, if what he was
saying outside of court to the media, first appeared in pleadings, in court motions and filings, then it`s safe to repeat that information. It`s
information that then was in the public sphere anyway.
BANFIELD: I would -- I would love to debate that, but you know what, we don`t have time to debate in this segment, but I think if this goes into a
courtroom, that`s where it`s going to be debated. I`m just going to thank all three of you. Great to see you all. I`m getting these flashbacks from
my courtroom moments from Bill and from Steve. Thank you all for being here. Appreciate it. Casey, Casey, Casey, the gift that keeps giving.
Tonight in Coral Springs, Florida, investigators are trying to track down the person who called in a false report about an armed and barricaded
person inside the house of a student who had just survived the Parkland School shooting. And a student who had just emerged as a national student
activist.
The Broward County SWAT team responded to David Hogg`s home and the call ultimately was determined to be a hoax. It`s something that now is called
swatting (ph) and it is bad. Young David Hogg emerged since Parkland as an outspoken gun control advocate. And in fact, he and his family weren`t even
at home at the time because they were in Washington, D.C. to accept the RFK Humanitarian Award.
Doctor Adam Lazzarini`s wife is dead. That much is a fact. We know that. But now we have two different autopsies that seem to tell us two different
stories about the circumstances of her death. And you know what else comes in twos? Dead people in that home. So what is the status of her husband,
the only person not dead?
[18:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: When a woman was recently t-boned while driving through a South Carolina intersection, some people said, dear God, was it ever lucky that a
doctor was nearby to save her life. Because she was in really bad shape.
But the other people in that doctor`s world have not been quite as lucky as the woman in the accident. And unfortunately, he did not save their lives.
He`s actually accused of killing one of them.
[18:40:00] And there have now been two, count them two deaths at Dr. Adam Lazzarini`s home. The first one is a medical sales rep named William
Holland who was shot to death in the master bedroom.
And the second one is Dr. Lazzarini`s own wife, Vanessa, who died at the same home, but seven months later. It`s weird, I know. Here`s what we can
tell you. Dr. Lazzarini originally told the police that his friend, William, that rep who died in the master bedroom, accidentally shot
himself.
But Dr. Lazzarini is actually now charged with William`s manslaughter. And now the police are looking at death number two, his wife. And what they`re
finding out is not exactly helping his lawyers argue that Dr. Lazzarini is no threat to society. Because according to an autopsy report, they do not
think that she died of natural causes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): Would you consider the death of Ms. Biery suspicious?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: That`s kind of clear. Joining me now, Chad Mills, reporter with CNN affiliate WIS. Also back with me, Dr. William Morrone and Monique
Pressley. Thank you to all of you. Chad, I`m going to start with you. This is weird.
The story, it kind of sticks in my craw because a guy died in the master bedroom, apparently shot himself. They said it was an accident. Seven
months later, his wife is dead. And we don`t really know how she`s dead. It seems to me that would be an easy answer. Why is it not easy?
CHAD MILLS, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WIS: I`ll tell you, Ashleigh, let me punctuate that, we get calls about stories all the time, I can`t remember
one where we`ve gotten so many calls with people wanting every little update, right now everyone waiting for the official autopsy to be released.
Yes, it is weird. And of course, that second death was considered suspicious, the death of the doctor`s late wife, Vanessa Biery, because of
the death that happened in October of that medical sales rep, William Holland.
That soundbite you played there was the chief of police for the area where his house is located and it was because of what they learned after the most
recent death that led him to making that conclusion, that the most recent death is suspicious.
BANFIELD: So what`s weird about this, Chad, is that the officials, the typical autopsy report that comes from the government, they`re still
waiting on toxicology, right? Takes a long time. I get that.
But then Dr. Lazzarini has commissioned an autopsy as well. And it looks at this point like those two autopsies are not the same, that they`re at odds
with each other. How is that?
MILLS: There are dual autopsies. And I think a lot of it boils down to the toxicology. We have been waiting on basically what`s like the FBI for the
state of South Carolina to come back with the toxicologist results.
As of this afternoon, those results are back. At this point, though, a state pathologist in Charleston has to look at those results and determine
a cause of death before the coroner here in what`s known as Lexington County, Margaret Fisher, can then talk about what she calls the manner of
death.
Meanwhile, as you mentioned, the attorneys for Dr. Lazzarini have funded their own autopsy. It`s someone up in the upstate, in Greenville, South
Carolina. He has been working on an autopsy up there. There were some media report at first basically calling the death natural causes. They then
backtracked in an interview with the -- I think it was two weeks ago, saying that --
BANFIELD: I`m going to jump in, Chad, for a second because here`s what I love. I love it when lawyers are pressed by media, because those are two
sides that know how to drill down to get the answer.
And when the lawyers for Dr. Lazzarini were being asked about that autopsy that you`re commissioning for your client, is there a toxicology part in
that autopsy? And wait until you hear how the lawyer skirts the issue. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JONATHAN HARVEY, ATTORNEY FOR ADAM LAZZARINI: I can assure all those who are interested in the case that what we`ve commissioned is a full and
complete pathology.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): So is that a yes or a no or --
HARVEY: What that is, that`s an answer to all who are interested that we`ve done a complete tox -- excuse me -- we`ve done a complete autopsy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): So that was a no?
HARVEY: No. The answer, my friend, the wind is blowing and we can quote Bob Dylan, a great 20th century poet, the answer is, we`ve requested and
have available a complete autopsy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: So my only advice is don`t quote Bob Dylan if you`re in front of a jury because they`ll call bullshit.
(LAUGHTER)
BANFIELD: Because that`s what I did the minute I heard that.
(LAUGHTER)
BANFIELD: Hold on, the three of you. Monique Pressley knows exactly what I`m talking about.
[18:44:57] When we come back, there is this whole notion that Dr. Lazzarini, if there weren`t so many weird things going on with him, ends up
saving a woman`s life in a car accident.
And his lawyers are talking about that too, the irony of the fact that if he hadn`t been let out of jail on bond, that woman might have died. And
does anybody care about that? Does a jury care about that? The question is next.
[18:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: We`re still talking about the surgeon in South Carolina who police say has blood on his hands, not from surgery, from shooting his
colleague dead. And now that the surgeon`s wife is dead as well, reportedly of unnatural causes, the story`s getting bigger.
But his lawyers insist that he is innocent and he`s actually a hero because after all of this happened, he treated the victim of a car crash that he
just happened to witness. Does that have anything to do with anything? Would that actually help convince the community that he`s somehow not a
danger and that maybe he`s just had too many unfortunate coincidences at his home?
My panel is back with me. When I went to break, I asked that question. The accident, the car accident. Monique Pressley, does that mean anything to
any of this? The fact that he did a great thing one day out, you know, saving a woman`s life, especially when the lawyers at the same time almost
in the same breath are saying, the poor guy has been in the wrong place at the wrong time twice.
PRESSLEY: It`s apples and rain drops as far as I`m concerned. Just because he does what a doctor should do in a situation where there`s someone who`s
in an accident and in trouble doesn`t mean that he doesn`t have the propensity to commit murder in another situation and circumstance
altogether.
So, they really don`t have anything to do with each other and it would be a stretch to try to even get the judge to consider it or anyone else. He`s
already out on bond, so it`s not going to serve any useful purpose at a forthcoming trial.
BANFIELD: And right now, he`s only facing involuntary manslaughter and obstructing justice, but they`re still waiting on the results, you know,
from the toxicology from the wife`s mysterious death which brings me to Dr. Morrone.
I don`t understand your business, my friend. Doctor, how is it that you have one autopsy saying one thing and then you can commission a separate
autopsy to say something completely different? How does that work?
WILLIAM MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER AND FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: The way it works is, in the state that has the jurisdiction, every autopsy report has
a toxicology report behind it. That`s how it`s all structured. If you`re a lawyer and you don`t like what the state says, you go hire somebody to come
in and challenge the state.
And you try to get the autopsy and the drug reports thrown out. But the problem is those drug reports are gone by the state police. And they have a
crime lab. And the other person`s just a hired gun. That`s how that works.
BANFIELD: We`ll see what happens. Because it`s usually the jury who gets to decide who the expert they believe is, which is really unfair, because
we`re all a bunch of average people who don`t have more degrees (ph) in the circle and so it`s hard to make that assessment.
My thanks to Chad Mills, Dr. Morrone, and Monique Pressley. I do have this other little bit of news I want to give you. Today`s judgment day for a
judge named Aaron Persky, the Santa Clara County superior court judge who became the focus of the recall petition after he sentenced the so-called
Stanford rapist, Brock Turner, to only six months in prison.
If the recall passes, Judge Persky will be the first judge successfully recalled in California in 86 years. So stay tuned to this space.
Up next, a headline we could not make up. A Texas police officer finds a woman passed out, sound asleep on the side of the road. How did she get
there, you ask? Got one more thing, next.
[18:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: I got one more thing for you tonight. Who hasn`t had a Saturday night go wrong? Think about it. But the odds are, they never went this
wrong with the police waking you up after you pass out on the side of a state highway with your head kind of in the highway.
Well, here Texas police say after the car in front of them swerved to avoid something in the road, looky, looky what they came upon. That there is a
woman, a woman sound asleep, half in the road.
After they walked over to her and kind of jogged over to her actually, they picked her up, they sorted her out, and they marched her right off to the
police station, and that`s where they booked her.
And the booking, as you can imagine, was public intoxication. Weird part is they did not charge her with DUI because she technically was not driving
when she was found having her little nap.
Police did find the car they say they think she was driving. It was about 200 yards away in the same ditch where she accidentally goes, boy, I`m
having trouble keeping straight up and down. Why did the car swerve? And just keep going? This is the question. Some people`s kids (ph).
Next hour of "Crime and Justice" starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:00:05] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): It`s been a nightmare. It`s like something from the movies.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): The woman they rescued from his car, claims she was his captive.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These days, you don`t know who you live next to. Anyone could be anybody next door.
BANFIELD: He was charged with her kidnapping after he tried to outrun the cops.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Requested a plea of not guilty at this time.
BANFIELD: But after what they found at his house will there be more charges coming his way?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three bodies were recovered on the property.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Smelled like road kill or something that died on the road and was wet.
BANFIELD: Who are these three dead women?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two of the three women have been the subject of missing person reports.
BANFIELD: And how was he let out of jail when he had allegedly been so violent with police before?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Think you are dealing with a serial killer here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not in a position to confirm that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are obviously investigating these deaths as suspicious at the very least.
BANFIELD: Plus, she was one of America`s most hated murder defendants.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m just as much of a victim as the rest of you.
BANFIELD: But if you think Casey Anthony got off the hook --.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We, the jury, find the defendant not guilty.
BANFIELD: When she was accused of killing her daughter, is she about to get a sequel?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey, how does it feel to be free?
BANFIELD: Why Casey Anthony could be headed back to a courtroom. All thanks to one of the people --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It just didn`t look like something that should be there.
BANFIELD: -- who helped put her there in the first place.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anything that you derive from the scene is completely unreliable because of the actions of Mr. Kronk.
BANFIELD: Police say he killed his colleague despite his denials.
Dr. Lazzarini said that Mr. Holland had accidentally shot himself.
BANFIELD: And now his wife is dead too.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were some medical reasons which were the cause of her death. But certainly nothing that was maliciously done.
BANFIELD: So which is it? Bad optics?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dr. Lazzarini just happens to be a guy that was in the wrong place two different times.
BANFIELD: Bad luck?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is a doctor in good standing.
BANFIELD: Or bad blood?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The death is suspicious.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BANFIELD: Good evening, everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. Welcome to the second hour of CRIME & JUSTICE.
Tonight, another chapter and more characters in a gruesome mystery that grows darker by the moment. Because what started as a simple traffic stop
for a simple broken tail light quickly turned into a police chase, which quickly turned into an arrest, which quickly turned into a kidnapping
charge for 40-year-old Stewart Weldon, whose passenger, by the way, was in bad shape. Actually gruesome shape, if you ask the police.
As bad as her condition was, police say she managed to tell them she had been Stewart Weldon`s prisoner. That she had been held captive and had
been repeatedly raped and beaten by him. Fortunately, that woman was rescued with terrible injuries that she is recovering from, that include
stab wounds and bruises and a possible broken jaw.
But we are learning a whole lot more tonight about her alleged kidnapper`s past. And no one could have imagined these sordid details. Because the
traffic stop led police to his home, eventually, where three house guests were discovered, in various stages of decomposition. Three women, all
dead, and recovered from inside that house, the garage, and the shed according to a neighbor.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEFAN DAVIS, NEIGHBOR: The police had it blocked off, but you could see in the garage, and there was something wrapped up in plastic. And I said,
that`s a body.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Joining me now on the phone is America Lyndon`s sister-in-law. We are calling her JoAnne and keeping her identity anonymous. Also with me
Mary Cate Mannion, a reporter with CNN affiliate WGGB. She is in Springfield at the crime scene. Former NYPD detective, and law enforcement
consultant Tom Bernie is with me and trial attorney Monique Presley is also with me.
Mary Cate, I know you are in front of the scene right now. Perhaps you could just get me up to speed on the police mobile command unit that hasn`t
moved away from that home yet. Are they still looking for more bodies? Are they digging and have they found anything new?
MARY CATE MANNION, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WGGB: Well, thank you so much for having me.
And as of today, it`s been fairly quiet compared to days prior where we have seen police coming to and from the street using the radar equipment
that I mentioned on Friday. And in the days since, coming to the street getting things like hand tools, rakes, shovels, things like that. That
tent behind me has been moving around the yard. But as of this morning, I did see investigators in that tent towards the backyard. But since then
it`s been relatively quiet here. Just two officers that just seem to be standing guard over the scene at the moment.
[19:05:10] BANFIELD: OK. And then there`s just this new information that`s come out today about this suspect, Stewart Weldon. The horrors of
what transpired over the last seven days, these bodies being found, this passenger in his car, claiming she is a captive slave and had been terribly
badly beaten. We are now finding out that there were terrible, you know -- a bad spate of crime back in October that yet again involved another police
chase, a violent struggle. Apparently the officers observing another assault. What do you know about that, Mary Cate?
MANNION: Sure, well, just I`m going to step out of frame for just a second so I can grab this. This is what my colleagues pulled today. This is just
his criminal history from the city of Springfield. Do you see how thick that is? This is from the Hammond county district court. And he has quite
a past in the state of New Jersey as well. These are just the records as I mentioned from him living here in Massachusetts. And he hasn`t lived in
the city of Springfield for that long.
Prior to this incident, another city, west of here also in Massachusetts. And over this two-decade span, it`s very clear that there have been several
instances, many is involving the police, as you mentioned, several assault and battery cases, weapon charges, drug charges. Just really a lot going
on.
BANFIELD: I mean, it`s just remarkable to think that yet again there was another police chase, this struggle apparently involved multiple officers.
Some reports have it as high as nine officers who are had to take him down. That they had to use a baton and tasers on him. That when they finally did
process him, his bail, he got out with $1,000 in cash. $1,000 got him out on the street, wearing a GPS which he promptly cut off. And this string of
violence has prompted the mayor of this town, Springfield, the mayor`s name is Dominic Sarno, pardon my pronunciation if it is not right.
I`m going to read his words exactly. And let me tell you, they are strident. So please realize these are not my words. They are his. The
mayor said this neighborhood is filled with good and diverse working class individuals and families who like me ask, why was this guy out on our
streets? Stewart R. Weldon is another choir boy let go by our judicial system. When will some of our judges realize that animals like this have
no respect for life, our courts, or GPS devices?
If I can, I would like to bring in -- I`m going to say Joan. That`s is not her real name. We are protecting her identity. But she is the sister-in-
law of one of these three women who were found dead and decomposing in this suspect`s home. The victim, America Lydon, her sister-in-law, JoAnne,
joining me now.
Thank you so much for being with us. Is there any information that you are learning from the police about the circumstances that your sister-in-law
were found in?
JOANNE, AMERICA LYNDON`S SISTER-IN-LAW (on the phone): At this moment, we have not heard anything else. Autopsies are still being conducted.
BANFIELD: But your sister-in-law had been missing, correct? She had been reported missing in December. Did you have any idea where America was? Or
who she had last seen?
JOANNE: We do not know the last exact time that she was seen by a person. But she was reported in late August missing, but we had to take certain
steps to find her. And to put out a missing person`s report because she is an adult. And we posted it all over social media and everything to find
her, and this is the way we find her.
BANFIELD: And JoAnne, I`m so sorry for your loss and for those terrible details that are coming out about the circumstances that America was found
in. I do want to ask you, had you ever heard the name Stewart Weldon before? Did you know anything about him?
JOANNE: Never. Never, ever have I heard his name.
BANFIELD: And do you think that your sister-in-law America, do you think that she knew him or had any kind of relationship with him at all?
JOANNE: No. She was a happily married woman.
BANFIELD: She was -- did she have children?
JOANNE: Yes.
BANFIELD: How many?
JOANNE: I do not want to mention.
BANFIELD: More than one?
JOANNE: I do not want to mention.
BANFIELD: OK, I understand. She was happily married. Do you think that it`s possible that Stewart Weldon was a stranger to her?
JOANNE: Yes. Even that area is not an area she would be in.
[19:10:04] BANFIELD: Where is this area in relation to where she would have been?
JOANNE: Very far.
BANFIELD: What do you suspect happened to America? How do you suspect she ended up dead in that man`s home?
JOANNE: We don`t know. We don`t know. And we want answers. And only when that has the answers and is able to speak, is that person, that --
BANFIELD: Do you have any idea who these other two women were who were found with your sister-in-law America? We don`t have their photos, but we
do have their names and their ages. Ernestine Ryans, 47 years old, and Kayla Escalante, 27 years old. Have you ever heard their names before?
JOANNE: Never.
BANFIELD: They are complete strangers to America, as far as you know?
JOANNE: I do not know if America knew them. I just know I did not know them.
BANFIELD: What did America`s social media say, if she had a social media presence? What was she saying in her social media before she disappeared?
JOANNE: That she was going to a cook-out. She was doing Easter egg hunts. She was getting her GED. A bunch of different things, positive things.
She was always a positive woman.
BANFIELD: Can you tell me what the circumstances were of her disappearance? Where was she and how did it come to be known that she was
missing?
JOANNE: She stopped contacting family for holidays and stuff.
BANFIELD: Did her husband -- did she just not come home one night, or were they estranged in any way? You mentioned they were happily married, but
did he say, my God, my wife isn`t home, and did he call the police? What sort of happened to kick off the missing persons report?
JOANNE: I`m unable to speak on that on his behalf.
BANFIELD: I understand. Are you and your family getting any updates from the police about the condition that America was found in and the details of
her death? Are you hearing anything from them?
JOANNE: Very little. Because the investigation is still going on.
BANFIELD: OK. JoAnne, I`m so sorry for your loss. To hear of the developments in the missing person`s case of your sister-in-law, America,
to hear them end in this manner, it`s just earth-shattering, and no one knows the shoes you`re walking in, and I`m so sorry for you and your
family.
JOANNE: Thank you.
BANFIELD: I want to bring in Tom Verni if I can, former NYPD detective, law enforcement consultant as well.
Tom, this scene is just unbearable. I mean, a violent man with a violent past, with a woman who says she has held captive, terribly injured, with
old and new injuries, and then to find three corpses in his home. Where do you even begin with the investigation and how long do you dig before you
just move on to process the bodies that you have?
TOM VERNI, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: Good afternoon, Ashleigh. And my condolences to the Lydon, Ryan, and Escalante families. It`s just
unbelievably awful.
And you know, this also just goes to show you, by the way, that no car stop is an ordinary car stop. You know, we get into -- sometimes we use the
language of standard or ordinary or normal car stop, but there really is no such thing. Because in a case like this, this reinforces the fact that you
walk up onto a car with a broken tail light and suddenly you have a hostage situation here, right.
And then subsequently find a number of, you know, DOAs, what we would call them, you know, but people who are deceased in this guy`s residence. And
yet to use the word animal is being nice. I mean, this guy is a mutant. He is menace, a complete menace to society.
The fact that he was out is just unbelievably just, you know, angering that he could be out in the streets, but that`s not just something, you know,
that happens in Springfield. This is a situation that happens all over the country, where judges are letting these guys out.
BANFIELD: It`s astounding. It is quite frankly, to know that he reportedly had nine officers who had to take him down the last time in
October. He was involved with something they said, they observed was an assault on a female before he took off on a high-speed chase and to think
that he got out with a merely $1,000 and a GPS unit that was cut off.
Let me do this. Let me bring in Monique Pressley very quickly. I mean, the only thing I can tell you about Stewart Weldon, because there`s so
little that we know, is that his aunt said that the family cannot believe that this has happened and that he quote "has a kind heart." I want you to
hear Theresa Jenkins in her own words, his aunt.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:15:17] THERESA JENKINS, AUNT OF STEWART WELDON: We just can`t believe it because he does have a kind heart. We really does when he`s, you know,
Stewart.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Monique, kind heart or not, he is in a world of trouble with three bodies in his house and a captive, injured woman.
MONIQUE PRESSLEY, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Absolutely. And we just came out of mental health awareness month, and that`s something that may have been at
play, that the courts missed, and another reason why he shouldn`t have been on the streets.
But judges do what they are supposed to do. They do it one case at a time. They look at history. They take a recommendation from a prosecutor and
they make a decision on bond. And the judge did that in this case. And I don`t question that decision. There were probably many other things along
the way that would have led to a different result, but that doesn`t mean that the mistake here was made in the courtroom.
BANFIELD: Yes, we sure have a lot of questions still that we`re going to work on. Not the least of which, how did those women end up there.
My thanks to my Mary Cate Mannion, Tom Verni and Monique Pressley and also to the woman we call JoAnne, the sister-in-law of America Lydon. Thank you
all.
Seven years ago, the trial of Casey Anthony, remember that? It sucked in the entire country. And day after day after day, we watched live. Now
seven years later, it sure seemed like her legal problems may have dissipated, but I got news for you. They have not. And we may be on the
brink of seeing Casey Anthony in the same Orlando courthouse.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:01:46] BANFIELD: If you had access to a TV between, say, May of 2011 and July of 2011, you saw Casey Anthony every day. All day. On trial for
the murder of her daughter Caylee Marie. There she was, stone-faced young woman, seated stoically, accused of murdering her little 2-year-old
daughter, Caylee, and then hiding that little girl`s body in the woods. And you may have been looking for signs that she did it. You may have
focused on her facial expressions or her body language, or what seemed like an apparent lack of remorse.
But the jury, they focused on the lack of evidence. And Casey Anthony was famously acquitted of that murder. And tonight she is out, walking free.
But soon she could be headed back to court and not just any court, that same courthouse in Orlando. Because of the man who found little Caylee`s
dead body.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A little bit further up, you can tell someone ran across it with a mower, but the weeds are still behind that area. There is
a fallen tree and it looks like someone had tried to cut on it at one point. That there was a white board hanging across the tree and there was
something round and white underneath of it. And I don`t know what it is, but it just didn`t look like something that should be there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: That`s the voice of Roy Kronk and there he is. And he may have come off like a hero in that call. The local meter reader whose testimony
became pivotal at Casey Anthony`s trial. But he himself was painted by Casey`s attorneys as the villain in this story. And he was painted that
way for months as Casey`s team continually pointed the finger at him. They claimed that he just might have been the one who killed little baby Caylee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Kronk is a morally bankrupt individual who actually took Caylee`s body and hid her. And anything that you derive from the
scene of suburban drive is completely unreliable because of the actions of Mr. Kronk.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Well, Kronk actually got pretty angry at that and sued for defamation, mere months after all of that came out in court by Jose Baez,
her attorney. But then Casey Anthony did something else. She was acquitted and she ended up filing for bankruptcy. And Mr. Kronk`s lawsuit
was put on pause because she can`t get money from a stone, right? But guess what. The play button may soon be pressed again. And this requires
an explanation.
So joining me now, some of the best people on the case, Steve Helling, senior writer with "People" magazine who spent day after day after day in
that courtroom, covering the case. He is also the author of "Outrage: the Casey Anthony story." Also my seatmate in that courtroom. Former
prosecutor and WSTV legal analyst Bill Schaffer is with me as well, and trial attorney Monique Pressley joins me as well.
Thank you to all of you for being a part of the story. Because this story the one that just doesn`t go away.
Steve Helling, my seatmate in the Casey Anthony trial, I`m going to get you back onto the story. Pease explain to me why it`s taken so incredibly long
for a simple civil case like defamation to go forward. And if it`s defamation about calling him a killer, why wasn`t that sort of open and
shut?
[19:25:21] Steve Helling, Senior Writer, People Magazine: Well, you know, this case was filed five months after she was acquitted. So we are talking
back at the end of 2011. And it kind of went on and everything and then she filed for bankruptcy. And once she did that, that put everything on
pause, as you said before. And so, Roy Kronk has been waiting, he has just been sitting and waiting and waiting for the right time. And then in this
bankruptcy case, there was, you know, Casey basically filed something saying, no, I didn`t defame him. And so, that`s what this motion is in
answer to. Pretty much he is ready to bring it back to court. And probably the same court as you and I sat in for months.
BANFIELD: Yes. I hope we get the assignment and sit again together. But at the same time, I`m not sure I can go through all that again, Steve. I`m
not sure I can stomach the whole thing.
HELLING: I`m totally done. Exactly. But you know, I think the bottom line is, the question will be, you know, was he defamed. Obviously, that
is what he says he was. And, you know, he wants to have his day in court and he hasn`t had it yet. And he feels like it`s high time to have it.
I mean, that was seven years ago that we were sitting together in court. Seven years ago today we were in there. So you have to figure that he`s
ready to have his day.
BANFIELD: Yes, that`s like two husbands, two middle school and elementary schools ago and a whole bunch of other lifetimes ago for me. I don`t know
about you.
HELLING: A lot of changes.
BANFIELD: Lot of changes, right.
Bill, look, I don`t want to get into all the complex stuff about bankruptcy court, because that`s really tricky stuff. But it`s a simple story. Casey
Anthony`s lawyer, Jose Baez, went as far as almost calling him a murderer and said he was morally bankrupt and made all these accusations and you and
I also sat together in.
But don`t you have some kind of protection when you are in litigation? You can say certain things in a case and not have to fear defamation. And why
is that wrong? Why in this particular case has Roy Kronk`s case not been dismissed, that there is a chance you can`t do that in a court of law?
BILL SHAFFER, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, you are absolutely right. If you`re in a court of law and it`s during a judicial proceeding that you
make these type of statements, you are immune from being held liable. The problem for these lawyers and Casey Anthony is that they made these
allegations outside of the courtroom to the media or others that would listen. You don`t have immunity as a lawyer if you make accusations
outside a judicial proceedings and that`s what`s coming back to haunt them at this point in time.
BANFIELD: Well, that makes perfect sense. That while we show the clip in the courtroom, it was all the stuff he said outside that courthouse that
constitutes the problem.
So here is the other issue. Whenever you are talking about, and again, you are the lawyer here, not me. Whenever you are talking about defamation,
you have to prove that what is said is untrue, right? And in Casey`s case, she is probably the least believable person in America. Just based on the
provable lies that she told, the exquisite lying techniques. I have a perfect example of it right now on the 911 call. This 911 call is made
when we already know, by her own lawyer`s opening statement, that that baby is dead. But here`s how she reports her now 31-day missing child to 911.
Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you last saw her a month ago?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thirty-one days. From 31 days.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who has her? Do you have a name?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her name is Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who is that? Babysitter?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She has been my nanny for about a year and a half, almost two years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Yes, that`s just a big fat lie. That`s such a big fat lie that Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez sued Casey Anthony for defamation. And because
of a technicality and, you know, the way the law and the code is written, that was actually dismissed. So she didn`t prevail. Zenaida Gonzalez did
not prevail, but there was no abduction of that baby by Zenaida Gonzalez. So we know Casey`s a big fat liar. How can you actually defend a case if
you are a liar and this is all about defamation?
SHAFFER: Well, what the lawyers have to prove is that her lawyers, acting as her agents, made willful statements about Roy Kronk, that were malicious
and harmful to him, that injured him. If the jury were to determine that, then they -- Roy Kronk could recover. The bankruptcy judge, by the way,
has to make a determination whether or not it was a malicious and willful, these defamatory statements made by her agents. If he rules that they
aren`t, then his lawsuit gets dismissed because you can`t recover. It will be discharged in bankruptcy.
(CROSSTALK)
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HLN HOST: When you call somebody morally bankrupt and you yell it on television, that`s pretty -- that`s pretty damaging stuff.
Hold on one second. I want to play one more piece of Casey Anthony, the exquisite liar. Here she is talking to her mother. This is what made her
so famous at the beginning of this whole saga. The way she was so good at lying, even to her own mom. Have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: But do you think after this long she`d still be local?
CASEY ANTHONY, DEFENDANT: There`s a possibility.
ANTHONY: What`s your gut telling you right now?
(CROSSTALK)
C. ANTHONY: That she`s OK.
ANTHONY: OK. And your gut tells you that she`s close or she`s hiding?
C. ANTHONY: She`s not far. I know in my heart she`s not far. I can feel it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Well, she wasn`t far because she was dead close to your home, admittedly. Monique Pressley, you can`t get blood from a stone. It`s the
old adage and we all know it. So why would anyone bother suing Casey Anthony, because Casey hasn`t got a penny, Casey`s barely employable, Casey
sold her life rights story, so even if she sits down does a $10 million interview, she doesn`t own that money. She sold it. So, why bother going
through all of this?
MONIQUE PRESSLEY, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Her brokeness really has nothing to do with it, same way in my opinion whether she`s a liar or not has nothing to
do with this case. Jose Baez is far from broke, and so anyone who`s suing and trying to succeed here is banking on the fact that if they`re
successful, it`s not just a lawsuit that involves Casey Anthony. It`s the defense team`s theory, the theory that they offered and made public in
order to prevent her from being found guilty. And I disagree, actually, with a good bit of what was said previously. I think that if these
lawyers, this isn`t Jose`s first rodeo, if what he was saying outside of court to the media, first appeared in pleadings, in court motions, and
filings, then, it`s safe to repeat that information.
BANFIELD: Oh.
PRESSLEY: It`s information that then was in the public sphere anyway.
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: I would -- I would love to debate that, but you know what? We don`t have time to debate this in this segment, but I think if this goes
into a courtroom, that`s where it is going to be debated. So, I`m just going to thank all three of you. It`s great to see you all. I`m getting
these flashbacks from my courtroom moments from Bill and from Steve. Thank you all for being here. Appreciate it. Casey, Casey, Casey, the gift that
keeps giving.
Tonight in Coral Springs, Florida, investigators are trying to track down the person who called in a false report about an armed and barricaded
person inside the house of a student who had just survived the Parkland school shooting and a student who had just emerged as a national student
activist. The Broward County SWAT team responded to David Hogg`s home and the call ultimately was determined to be a hoax. It`s something that now
is called SWATing, and it is bad. Young David Hogg emerged since Parkland as an outspoken gun control advocate and, in fact, he and his family
weren`t even at home at the time, because they were in Washington, D.C. to accept the RFK Humanitarian Award.
Dr. Adam Lazzarini`s wife is dead. That much is a fact, we know that. But now we have two different autopsies that seem to tell us two different
stories about the circumstances of her death. And you know what else comes in twos? Dead people in that home. So, what is the status of her husband,
the only person not dead?
[19:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: When a woman was recently T-boned while driving through a South Carolina intersection, some people said, dear God, was it ever lucky that a
doctor was nearby to save her life, because she was in really bad shape. But the other people in that doctor`s world have not been quite as lucky as
the woman in the accident. And unfortunately, he did not save their lives. He`s actually accused of killing one of them.
[19:40:04] And there have now been two, count them, two deaths at Dr. Adam Lazzarini`s home. The first one is a medical sales rep named William
Holland, who was shot to death in the master bedroom. And the second one is Dr. Lazzarini`s own wife, Vanessa, who died at the same home, but seven
months later.
It`s weird, I know. Here`s what we can tell you. Dr. Lazzarini originally told the police that his friend William, that rep who died in the master
bedroom, accidentally shot himself. But Dr. Lazzarini is actually now charged with William`s manslaughter. And now, the police are looking at
death number two, his wife. And what they`re finding out is not exactly helping his lawyers argue that Dr. Lazzarini is no threat to society
because according to an autopsy report, they do not think that she died of natural causes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you consider the death of Ms. Biery suspicious?
CHIEF BYRON SNELLGROVE, CAYCE DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Well, that`s kind of clear. In that, joining me now, Chad Mills, reporter with CNN affiliate, WIS, also, back with me, Dr. Morrone
William and Monique Pressley. Thank you to all of you.
Chad, I`m going to start with you. This is weird. The story -- it kind of sticks in my craw because a guy died in the master bedroom, apparently shot
himself. They said it was an accident. Seven months later, his wife is dead, and we don`t really know how she`s dead. It seems to me that would
be an easy answer. Why is it not easy?
CHAD MILLS, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WIS: And I`ll tell you, Ashleigh, let me punctuate that. We get calls about stories about crimes all the time.
I can`t remember one, where we`ve gotten so many calls with people wanting every little update. Right now, everyone waiting for the official autopsy
to be released. Yes, it is weird, and, of course, that second death was considered suspicious, the death of the doctor`s late wife, Vanessa Biery,
because of the death that happened in October of that medical sales rep, William Holland. That soundbite you played there was the chief of the
police for the area where his house is located, and it was because of what they learned after the most recent death that led him to making that
conclusion, that the most recent death is suspicious.
BANFIELD: So, what`s weird about this, Chad, is that the officials, the typical autopsy report that comes from the government, they`re still
waiting on toxicology, right? Takes a long time. I get that. But then, Dr. Lazzarini has commissioned an autopsy as well, and it looks at this
point like those two autopsies are not the same. That they`re at odds with each other. How is that?
MILLS: There are dual autopsies, and I think a lot of it boils down to the toxicology. We have been waiting on basically what`s like the FBI for the
State of South Carolina to come back with the toxicologist results. And as of this afternoon, those results are back. At this point, though, a state
pathologist in Charleston has to look at those results and determine a cause of death before the coroner here in what`s known as Lexington County,
Margaret Fisher, can then talk about what she calls the manner of death. And then, meanwhile, as you mentioned, the attorneys for Dr. Lazzarini have
funded their own autopsy. It`s someone up in the upstate, in Greenville, South Carolina. He has been working on an autopsy up there. There were
some media reports at first basically calling the death natural causes. They then backtracked in an interview with the -- I think it was two weeks
ago, saying --
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: But here`s what -- here -- I`m going to -- I`m going to jump in, Chad, for a second because here`s what I love. I love it when lawyers are
pressed by media, because those are two sides that know how to drill down to get the answer. And when the lawyers for Dr. Lazzarini were being asked
about, that autopsy that you`re commissioning for your client, is there a toxicology part in that autopsy? And wait until you hear how the lawyer
skirts the issue. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JONATHAN HARVEY, ATTORNEY FOR LAZZARINI: I can assure all those who are interested in the case that what we`ve commissioned is a full and complete
pathology.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, was that a yes or a no or --
HARVEY: What that is, is that`s an answer to all who are interested that we`ve done a complete tox -- excuse me -- we`ve done a complete autopsy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, that was a no?
HARVEY: No, the answer, my friend, the wind`s blowing and we could quote Bob Dylan, a great 20th century poet, the answer is, we`ve requested and
have available a complete autopsy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: So, my only advice is don`t quote Bob Dylan if you`re in front of a jury because they`ll call bullshit. Because that`s what I did the
minute I heard that. Hold on the three of you. Monique Pressley knows exactly what I`m talking about.
[19:45:02] When we come back, there is this whole notion that Dr. Lazzarini, if there weren`t so many weird things going on with him, ends up
saving a woman`s life in a car accident. And his lawyers are talking about that, too. The irony of the fact that if he hadn`t been let out of jail on
bond, that woman might have died. And does anybody care about that? Does a jury care about that? The question is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:50:14] BANFIELD: We`re still talking about the surgeon in South Carolina who police say has blood on his hands, not from surgery, from
shooting his colleague dead. And now, that the surgeon`s wife is dead as well, reportedly of unnatural causes, this story is getting bigger. But
his lawyers insist that he is innocent, and he`s actually a hero because after all this happened, he treated the victim of a car crash that he just
happened to witness. Does that have anything to do with anything? Will that actually help convince the community that he`s somehow not a danger
and that maybe he`s just had too many unfortunate coincidences at his home?
My panel is back with me, and when I went to break, I asked that question, the accident, the car accident, Monique Pressley, does that mean anything
to any of this, the fact that he did a great thing one day, out, you know, saving a woman`s life, especially when the lawyers at the same time almost
in the same breath are saying, the poor guy has just been in, you know, the wrong place at the wrong time twice?
PRESSLEY: It`s apples and rain trucks as far as I`m concerned, just because he does what a doctor should do in a situation where there`s
someone who`s in an accident and in trouble. It doesn`t mean that he doesn`t have the propensity to commit murder in another situation and
circumstance altogether. So, they really don`t have anything to do with each other. And it would be a stretch to try to even get the judge to
consider it or anyone else. He`s already out on bond, so it`s not going to serve any useful purpose at a forthcoming trial.
BANFIELD: And right now, he`s only facing involuntary manslaughter and obstructive of justice, but they`re still waiting on the results, you know,
from the toxicology from the wife`s mysterious death, which brings me to Dr. Marrone. I don`t understand your business, my friend. Doctor, how is
it that you can have one autopsy saying one thing and then you can commission a separate autopsy to say something completely different? How
does that work?
MARRONE: The way it works is in the state that has jurisdiction, every autopsy report has a toxicology report behind it. That`s how it`s all
structured. If you`re a lawyer and you don`t like what the state says, you go hire somebody to come in and challenge the state. And you try to get
the autopsy and the drug reports thrown out. But the problem is those drug reports are done by the state police, and they have a crime lab. And the
other person`s just a hired gun and a shill. That`s how that works.
BANFIELD: Well, yes. And we`ll see what happens because it`s usually the jury that gets to decide who the expert they believe is, which is really
unfair, because we`re all a bunch of average people who don`t have more degrees in a circle and so it`s hard to make that assessment. My thanks to
Chad Mills, Dr. Marrone, and Monique Pressley.
I do have this other little bit of news I want to give you: today is judgment day for a judge named Aaron Persky, that`s the Santa Clara
superior -- county superior court judge who became the focus of the recall petition after he sentenced the so-called "Stanford rapist" Brock Turner to
only six months in prison. If the recall passes, Judge Persky will be the first judge successfully recalled in California in 86 years. So, stay
tuned to this space.
Up next, a headline we could not make up, a Texas police officer finds a woman passed out sound asleep on the side of the road. How did she get
there, you ask, got "ONE MORE THING" next.
[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: "ONE MORE THING" for you tonight. It is a life lesson that really should never have to be said. It`s never a good idea to have a nap
on the side of a state highway. This was the scene early Saturday morning when Texas police saw a car swerve ahead of them to avoid a collision with
this, hello, who are you? The officer jumped out of the cruiser and ran up to this, what looked like body, only to find that it was just a sleeping
lady, having a nap on the side of the road. He shook her awake, sure, he asked her a whole bunch of questions that he didn`t get clear answers to.
And when he was able to rouse her, move her off the danger zone, they were headed straight to the police station where she was booked for public
intoxication.
Here`s the weird part, she was not charged for the DUI because technically she was not driving when he found her, but he did find a car that he thinks
she was driving. It was about 200 yards away in a ditch that she stands up and promptly wobbles into. Right? I`m with you. WTF.
See you back here tomorrow night, 6:00 Eastern. You can also listen to our show any time, download our Podcast on Apple Podcast, iHeart Radio,
Stitcher, TuneIn or wherever you get your Podcast for your CRIME & JUSTICE fix. Can`t tell you how happy I am you watched us tonight. Thank you so
much. "FORENSIC FILES" begins right now.
END
