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HALA GORANI TONIGHT
Outcry Over Immigration Policy That Separates Families; Trump On Separations: The U.S. Will Not Be A Migrant Camp; Controversy Rages Over Separating Immigrant Families; Compulsive Gaming Could Be Mental Health Problem; England Playing Tunisia In First Match; Germany And Italy Struggling Over Immigration; New Italian PM Meets Merkel After Rejects Migrants; Cartoonist: I Was Fired For Making Fun Of Trump; Thomas Markle Opens Up About Missing Royal Wedding. Aired 3-4p ET
Aired June 18, 2018 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. Live from CNN London, I'm Hala Gorani.
Tonight, the issue of immigration is weighing large on both sides of the Atlantic. In the United States, scenes like these. A highly contested
debate erupting as thousands of parents and children are separated at the border with Mexico.
Meanwhile, in Europe, the question of what to do with migrants is straining Angela Merkel's government in Germany. We will explore that question as
Immoral, heartbreaking and nothing short of torture, from the United Nations and Amnesty International to both sides of the American political
divide, there is widespread concern and in many cases outrage, that thousands of immigrant children are being separated from their families at
the U.S. border and put in detention centers, in cages some are saying.
So, this hour we ask, why is still there nothing being done? We may get answers in the coming minutes when the White House holds a press briefing
with Sarah Sanders. President Trump offered his own reasoning insisting he's trying to control the border and once again blaming all of this on his
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I say it's very strongly the Democrats' fault. They are obstructionists and they are
obstructing. The United States will not be a migrant camp and it will not be a refugee holding facility. It won't be. You look at what's happening
in Europe. You look at what's happening in other places. We can't allow that to happen to the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: OK, we will look at some of the untruths that have been said over the last several days regarding refugees, their numbers, what kind of chaos
or criminality they cause, according to those who say immigration should be limited.
But caught in the middle, more than 2,000 children taken from their parents between mid-April and today, this is a policy. It's not enshrined in law.
One of them is this 2-year-old immigrant girl in McAllen, Texas.
This picture you have probably have seen online and on television. We don't know her name. We know she traveled more than 2,000 kilometers from
Honduras. She cries in the picture as she watches her mother get searched by border patrol agents.
What she doesn't yet realize is that they are about to be separated, this girl and her parents. Part of Donald Trump's zero-tolerance immigration
policy that are criminalizing adults who illegally enter the United States and processing them right away in the criminal justice system.
Many of them and children are being sent to places such as this, a detention center in Texas. These are handout images, they are from U.S.
Customs and Border Protection. They show adults and children in what can be well described as cages.
These are the images that are sparking outrage. The attorney general, Jeff Sessions, even though he announced that there would be zero tolerance, says
he doesn't want to see families separated. Adding that greater political action needs to be taken.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEFF SESSIONS, ATTORNEY GENERAL: We do not want to separate parents from their children. You can be sure of that. If we build a wall, we pass some
legislation, we close some loopholes, we won't face these terrible choices.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Now even though his critics say the president could end this. This is policy. It's not law. Donald Trump claims he hates to see
families torn apart. It is a view echoed by his wife, Melania.
In a rare statement on policy, she added this via her communications director, "Mrs. Trump believes we need to be a country that follows all
laws, but also a country that governs with heart."
In a minute, we will talk about this issue with both sides. It's a complex story or maybe depending on what you think it's not complex at all. First,
let's turn to our White House reporter, Sarah Westwood with more.
Because we are expecting the administration, obviously in this briefing and Sarah Sanders to be questioned about the separation at the board. We heard
a defense by many administration officials in the last 24 hours.
[15:05:05] SARAH WESTWOOD, CNN REPORTER: That's right, Hala. President Trump's facing an intense backlash over that uptick of children separated
from their families at the border. President Trump and some of his top officials have again falsely blamed Democrats for that policy.
But other top aides, including Stephen Miller, have argued that it is meant as a deterrent. They have owned the policy and they described it as simply
the full enforcement of existing law.
With the White House divided on how best to defend this policy, President Trump heads to Capitol Hill tomorrow to try to convince House Republicans
to support an immigration deal that his White House helped negotiate.
But given that bipartisan backlash to the Trump administration's policy of separating families, which it implemented in April, pressure is certainly
mounting on the White House to reverse course.
Like you mentioned, since April, nearly 2,000 children have been separated from their families as a result of this zero-tolerance policy which the
Justice Department implemented requiring all people caught attempting to enter the country illegally to be prosecuted. So, right now, the future of
that policy amid that mounting opposition still looks unclear -- Hala.
GORANI: Right. Although, we are hearing them defend it. We will see, by the way, what Sarah Sanders says, although, quite often, she doesn't
directly answer questions. We will see if we get some direct answers in this particular case today.
Is there a chance, though, that this may be reversed because of backlash? I mean, what are the chances of that happening? Because it appears as
though the administration is saying we could solve this if Democrats agree to immigration legislation on our terms.
WESTWOOD: Well, certainly, it's true that that is one of the two ways that this problem could get fixed. One obviously would be President Trump
picking up the phone to other parts of his administration and calling off the implementation of the zero-tolerance policy.
The other would be for Congress to pass legislation that makes changes to the way that families are detained and processed at the border. That's
something that Congress is certainly looking at doing now.
But when it comes to immigration, both sides, Democrats and Republicans, have had an exceedingly difficult time coming together this year. This is
obviously an emotionally charged issue. It will be interesting to see amid the backlash if lawmakers will come together on this one.
GORANI: All right. The full enforcement of existing laws, that wasn't the case before. Right now, we are seeing it at the border with these
separations. Let's get firsthand picture of the border between the U.S. and Mexico.
Polo Sandoval is in Brownsville, Texas. First of all, for our international viewers, Polo, we have seen the pictures, the government
handout video. What is it like for these kids, these children separated from their parents at the border? What are the conditions like that you've
POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hala, we have seen some of the photographs that as you pointed out a little while ago have been handed out
by the Department of Homeland Security here in the United States. Reporters unable to bring cameras of their own. Officials on the ground
citing privacy reasons.
As a result, we cannot take you inside the facility you see behind me. It used to be a retail location for a giant Walmart. But instead, it's been
remodeled now and serves a purpose, a holding facility for hundreds of undocumented children.
Now the reason why this one here stands out, only about 10 percent of the population at this location accounts for some the recently separated from
their parents. The rest of them come -- have come across the border by themselves, unaccompanied.
Authorities have not been able to place them anywhere with family. The rest also come here with perhaps extended relatives or friends. As a
result, they are brought here. It's that 10 percent that we find not just here, but at centers across the country that has people outraged.
Especially with some of those photographs that have been released by the Department of Homeland Security in the United States to take us inside. In
those pictures, you see that fencing that's keeping some of these individuals in place.
GORANI: We are seeing some of that video. How young are the youngest kids separated from their parents? Where are they if they are too small, too
young to take care of themselves, bathe themselves, change their clothing, brush their teeth? Who does that for them? How young are these children
in some cases?
SANDOVAL: We have heard reports from some of the legislators, who have had the opportunity to tour these facilities, one of them telling us that he
has seen children as young as 5 years old in these centers. Certainly, haven't seen anybody younger than that, at least not quite yet.
That doesn't mean that they are not there. As for who takes care of them, many of these centers are privately run facilities by non-profit
organizations that are contracted by the U.S. government to operate.
Yesterday, I was standing outside of one in Elizabeth, New Jersey, not far from New York City. Now, here we are in South Texas, very similar system
that's in place here for these children.
I will leave with you two questions that we're trying to answer. One of them, how long does the separation last? Keep in mind the reason why this
happened is because the children under 17 cannot stay with their parents as they are prosecuted by the U.S. government for their illegal entry.
Second question, is that days or months that they are away from their parents? Last question is, exactly who is separated?
[00:10:09] We heard from the secretary of the Department of Homeland Security earlier today saying that this claim that every single family that
comes across the border illegally is prosecuted, she says that claim is false.
At the same time, they have not offered clarification on whether or not there's a criteria on who -- what families are separated. As we wait now
for this upcoming press briefing at the White House, we hope that we could perhaps learn a little bit more about this zero-tolerance policy that many
critics have zero tolerance for.
GORANI: All right. That is the hope that today we will get some answers. Polo Sandoval in Texas, thanks very much.
The issue of immigration in the U.S. is proving an increasingly difficult one. Here to discuss this issue, Maria Cardona, a CNN political
commentator and Democratic strategist. Along with us John Fredericks, a talk radio host and a supporter of President Trump.
John Fredericks, first of all, do you agree with this policy of enforcing the law to its fullest and prosecuting people who come to the border
without documentation, criminally and therefore taking their children from them? Do you think this is a policy that is a good one? Do you support
JOHN FREDERICKS, TRUMP FOR PRESIDENT ADVISORY BOARD: Yes. Absolutely.
FREDERICKS: We can't have -- number one, nobody is in favor of separating children from parents. So, what the parents should do is not bring the
children into the country illegally. They have broken the law.
Hala, we can't have a two-tier justice system in America. If an American citizen, somebody that's working, that can't afford bail, if they break the
law and they are apprehended and handcuffed and taken into a facility and their minor children are with them, the authorities take the minor children
and they put them in child services.
Just like is happening today. This is supposed to be a deterrent. The other thing is, these are not being apprehended at the border. They're
being apprehended after they cross the border illegally. They start out by breaking a U.S. law where we have put the word out, we're done with this.
The alternative is, you come over the border, you break the law, you get apprehended and the alternative to apprehension and processing for
prosecution is you are simply released. That's catch and release. That's been the unspoken policy that we have had.
GORANI: I'm going to let Maria weigh in here. Maria Cardona, what is your take on this? Because obviously, there are people who say, sure, fine,
it's the law. Following rules and enacting -- and applying the law to its fullest extent is inhumane.
MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.
GORANI: What is your position?
CARDONA: It absolutely is. Let's be very clear. There's nothing -- absolutely nothing in the law that says that you have to rip children from
the arms of their mothers. That exactly -- that's exactly what is happening.
It's a voluntary inhumane, un-American, dictatorial policy that this president has voluntarily chosen to essentially terrorize these migrants
who are coming from places where there are conditions that I really do not wish upon anybody that they would ever feel the kind of desperation that
these migrant families feel as their children are under the threat of death in many cases.
They are coming to the country. What is another complete perversion of what actually is a legal law -- that what this country offers is asylum.
These children -- these families are coming through legal ports of entry and surrendering themselves to border patrol to ask for asylum. And they
are apprehending them and treating them as criminals.
GORANI: John Fredericks, what's wrong with doing -- let me --
FREDERICKS: That's not accurate.
GORANI: Maria, let me ask John Fredericks --
GORANI: Let me ask you the question. What's wrong with allowing parents and their kids to be together? Remain together while these either asylum
requests or processing the paperwork or figuring out whether or not -- what to do criminally or not with the person entering the country, what's wrong
with doing that? This is traumatizing kids. It's really traumatizing them.
FREDERICKS: It's the same thing if a working-class family gets apprehended for shoplifting to feed their kids because they can't make enough money to
make ends meet to support their family. If they go to processing waiting for bail, their children -- their minor children are apprehended if there's
no one else to take care of the minors. It's no different with the United States. You would have to change everything. But to what Maria said --
CARDONA: That's not true.
[15:15:11] FREDERICKS: That is blatantly false, Maria. It's so false because the families that are applying for asylum at the port of entry,
which is our law, at the border, they're not separated. The families that become separated --
CARDONA: Yes, they are.
FREDERICKS: No, Maria, that's not true.
CARDONA: They are. They are being separated. That is part of the perversion that is going on here.
FREDERICKS: That is false.
FREDERICKS: They get apprehended illegally and then they have come to the country illegally and then when they are apprehended --
CARDONA: They are surrendering to border patrol.
GORANI: By the way, there have been cases of people requesting asylum at a port of entry where the kids have been separated from the parents. That
FREDERICKS: That is blatantly false.
CARDONA: It's not false.
GORANI: By the way, one thing I want to avoid is talking over each other. Because our viewers actually -- I get a lot of tweets about that. Stop
people screaming over each other. They get annoyed by it. I want to get you to react to what Laura Bush said. You can't accuse her of being a
Democrat or --
CARDONA: A partisan.
GORANI: She tweeted this about family separations, "This zero-tolerance policy is cruel, it is immoral." Very strong word. "And it breaks my
heart. Our government should not be in the business" -- if we can continue the tweet -- "of warehousing children in converted box stores or making
plans to place them in tent cities in the desert outside of El Paso."
So, I mean, John Fredericks, that was in the "Washington Post." Then she tweeted something with a similar message. You have widespread condemnation
of this. I guess, the question is, do you have no empathy for the children? Because the rules, you could find any rule you want to be
extremists. You can find one probably. Why go that far?
FREDERICKS: I'm a Catholic and I'm a father of three. This breaks everybody's heart to see these children ripped away. But you simply can't
break the law. The alternative is just catch and release. That has failed.
So, the message to the parents is, why are you using your children as a political football and putting them at risk? Go through the process like
everyone else. As far as Laura Bush is concerned, what breaks my heart, Mrs. former first lady, is your husband launching two wars that were we're
still in today maiming and killing thousands of Americans for no reason. That breaks my heart. I don't really care what she has to say, to be quite
frank with you.
GORANI: It's not just Americans who were killed in those wars. We are seeing all over the world. A lot of people might agree with you about that
one. Maria, what's your response to that?
CARDONA: Yes, what that tells me is that clearly John has nowhere else to go because he and Trump and all of their supporters are feeling the
pressure of just how inhumane this policy is. Let's be very clear. This is a tactic that has been used throughout history by the most insidious
purveyors of pure evil.
Slave traders used this. Those who implemented apartheid used this. Nazis used this. Terrorists use this. Now the government of the United States
of America is using this. Your viewers should know that we are ashamed of this and we're going to continue to put the pressure on Republicans to cut
it out and to put the pressure on Trump to cut it out.
His own faith community, the people who have supported him have said that this is disgraceful. He is losing support left and right. I don't think
that this is going to be sustainable. It's very politically perilous for every Republican looking to be reelected in 2018.
GORANI: All right. I think we have 30 seconds left on your satellite window, John. Quick last word?
FREDERICKS: As usual, great hyperbole and no substance from Maria. Maria, that was a very nice script. At the bottom line --
CARDONA: And factual.
FREDERICKS: -- is simply, you cannot break the law in the United States. There's consequences.
GORANI: All right.
FREDERICKS: And until you want to treat working class Americans with no money the same as migrants, as U.S. citizens --
GORANI: We have to go. John, we are going to lose you. John Fredericks, thank you. Maria Cardona, thanks to both of you. Appreciate your time.
Still to come tonight, something completely different. Let me tell you, this was one of the most clicked on stories on our website. Is video
gaming really a mental health condition? What global health authorities are saying now. We will bring you that coming up.
GORANI: Now parents have long been concerned about the effects of video games. What some have called digital heroin. Can playing video games
truly be addictive? The World Health Organization now says, yes, it absolutely can. CNN's Sanjay Gupta has our story.
EVAN PORTER, RECOVERING VIDEO GAME ADDICT: I pretty much started playing video games seriously in fifth grade. My amount of use got -- sixth grade,
then seventh grade and then eighth grade. Ninth grade it went straight up. That's when my life really started deteriorating.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was basically online all the time every waking moment and he would refuse to go to school. He wouldn't eat with us. He
lost weight. He was up all night.
SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): And like any mom, Karen Porter, became increasingly concerned about her 16-year-old son
Evan. She didn't know how serious the problem was. Now the World Health Organization is for the first time calling gaming disorder a mental health
DR. VLADIMIR POZNYAK, WHO DEPARTMENT OF MENTAL HEALTH AND SUBSTANCE ABUSE: We should be clearly defined behavioral pattern, which is of such intensity
and nature that it takes precedence of all activities, which have been important for an individual in the past.
GUPTA: That was Evan, to a "T" nothing was more than important than his ability to get online and game. Overwatch, Teen Fortress 2, Counterstrike,
Global Offensive, games that are designed to keep you playing for hours.
HILARIE CASH, AUTHOR, "VIDEO GAMES AND YOUR KIDS": I think it's really helpful to understand that once an addictive process takes hold of someone,
they do lose control. Their impulse to just go online and game and do whatever else they want to do online, that is stronger than whatever it is
they tell themselves they should be doing.
GUPTA: Hilarie Cash is a co-founder of Restart, an in-patient treatment program for video game addicts. It's outside of Seattle and about as far
away as you can get from screens, picturesque, peaceful and most importantly unplugged.
PORTER: It's a pretty big difference. Growing up from screens to unscreen all night to no screens.
GUPTA: What happens here is, no surprise, lots of therapy, time outdoors and an emphasis on interpersonal interactions.
CASH: We're social animals. We actually need to be physically present with one another, face to face, where we can see and hear and touch and
smell each other.
[15:25:08] GUPTA: It's still early days for Restart. They have graduated 19 adolescents in the last year and a half. But here is the problem, the
real world is still filled with triggers for gaming addicts.
PORTER: Alcoholic. You can't have alcohol again, addicted to cocaine can't ever have cocaine again. A technology addict, pretty hard to live
GUPTA: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, reporting.
GORANI: All eyes are on Russia. England is playing Tunisia right now. In this newsroom, you know, people were working, sure. They were -- had maybe
one eyeball on another screen. So far, the score is even with both sides a goal apiece. The players have returned from halftime.
Earlier, Belgium was doing very well. It won against panama 3-0. Sweden took on South Korea and came out on top thanks to a second half penalty.
They use video for that. The video technology hasn't really taken away the controversy surrounding the calls it seems like sometimes. Amanda Davies
is following the action from Moscow. Who just scored?
AMANDA DAVIES, CNN WORLD SPORT: You know what, Hala? Nobody has just scored. The Mexico fans behind us have got really excited. They're still
GORANI: I thought I heard you say they just scored.
DAVIES: This is the World Cup. You say people in the office have one eye on football. We are all allowed to be fans in this scenario. This is what
makes the World Cup so special. It's not just once a day, two, three, four times a day, they're all fantastic football matches taking place.
What we have seen already in the first five days here, there have been so many surprises. The favorites aren't necessarily winning. We have seen
that with Argentina, Brazil, Germany yesterday.
But in terms of England, I hate to say it. We have some commentators already playing down expectations. We have people saying, this is the best
football we have seen so far in this tournament. As soon as you take to the pitch, the expectation ramps up again from the word go.
It has been a really good game, I have to say. England looking to make amends after a disappointing time in Brazil four years ago and then at Euro
2016. They have a new manager since then, a former player. He is keen to do things differently.
On paper, England should be winning this game against Tunisia, a country in the World Cup for the first time since 2006. England got the early lead,
but then Tunisia did equalize from the penalty spot on 35 minutes.
England doing very well going forward, but Tunisia, as we know, they can, defending very, very well. So, it's very tight, about 20 minutes left.
Nothing to be seen between the two sides as things stand -- Hala.
GORANI: All right. Amanda Davies, thanks very much. We will catch up with you again. I know you will get back to watching the game properly
The CEO of luxury automaker, Audi, has been arrested in Germany as part of an investigation into emissions cheating. Prosecutors in Munich say Rupert
Stadler was detained because of concerns he could influence witnesses in the ongoing investigation. Stadler has worked for Audi's parent company,
Volkswagen, since 1990. He is the highest-ranking Volkswagen executive to be arrested in connection with the diesel-gate scandal.
A lot more to come this evening, Europe's immigration crisis, could an internal rebellion over immigration bring Angela Merkel's leadership in
Germany to an end?
Plus, they are meant to poke, to prod, to provoke. Coming up, why a longtime political cartoonist said he was let go for cartoons that did that
against Donald Trump. We'll be right back.
[15:30:56] GORANI: Any minute now, the White House Sarah Sanders is expected to face some questions about the forced separation of immigrant
families at the border. We'll bring it to you live when it gets underway and she starts addressing that issue.
Europe is, of course, facing its own immigration challenges. Germany has welcomed hundreds of thousands of asylum seekers in recent years, namely
from Syria. The tension though over accepting more migrants has threatened Chancellor Angela Merkel's government. Just within the past few hours, she
agreed to a compromise and averted a government collapse. The pressure though is still on. Mrs. Merkel has just wrapped up a meeting with the new
Italian Prime Minister, Giuseppe Conte to discuss immigration policy. His government is a lot less in favor of allowing migrants in and she's under a
deadline from conservative members of her own alliance to crack down.
Now, contrast that tension with this joyful scene of migrants arriving at a Spanish port Sunday after a week at sea. Their relief is in stark contrast
to being turned away from Italy, whose government we just discussed and from Malta as well. Delia Gallagher is in Rome with more on that. Atika
Shubert joins us from Berlin.
Atika, I want to start with you. How fragile is Angela Merkel now? Because in her own alliance, there are elements there telling her, you
know, to be tougher on immigration.
ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It was looking a little dicey on the weekend. Basically, it ended up being a showdown
between her and her interior minister, Horst Seehofer, who is of course also the leader of her Bavarian sister party, the Christian Social Union.
He wanted to unveil the 63-point plan to reduce migration. And he specifically wanted to be able to reject asylum seekers at the border if
they had already applied for refugee status in another E.U. country.
Basically, Angela Merkel said no. I do not approve that plan because of that single point. And the reason for that is, of course, freedom of
movement is a core principal of the E.U and she was very worried that if that plan went ahead, she would be in violation of that E.U. principal. So
instead, she said, listen, give me two weeks and I'll try and broker some bilateral deals with different countries across the E.U. allowing us to
return asylum seekers to those countries. So now she's got very busy two weeks ahead. She's already met with the new Italian minister tonight.
She'll meet with French President Emmanuel Macron tomorrow but she's got a number of countries she's basically got to convince with some sort of
agreement and then come back on July 1st and report back to her party.
GORANI: And Delia Gallagher, so she's meeting with the Italian prime minister who we know the central government of Italy said to that migrant
ship that ended up in Spain, we're not taking these people in. Malta said the same. So, does Angela Merkel have a chance here in convincing her
Italian counterpart to take refugees and asylum seekers back if they entered first through Italy?
[15:35:04] DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's the whole crux of the problem for Italy, of course, Hala. The whole point
about getting Spain to take in the ship of the Aquarius was so that the migrants would be first entering into Spain and therefore be registered in
Spain and Spain would have to deal with that problem. So if Germany is now saying that they don't want to take asylum seekers who are already
registered in another E.U. country, that clearly puts the burden back on countries like Italy and countries that are on the Mediterranean. So
that's going to be a sticking point for Italians.
Now, there's been an interesting poll just this weekend that some 59 percent of Italians supported their government in this move of closing the
port and among them 29 percent of left leaning voters. So there's been an increase in support for this move -- some drastic move to close the ports.
But it's now up to these discussions at the European level as to what are they going to do with the asylum seekers.
GORANI: Yes. And we're going to discuss this tweet in more detail a little bit later, Atika Shubert. But Donald Trump seized on Angela
Merkel's political issues at home, saying crime is at record highs and immigration numbers are what are causing the big headaches for Angela
Merkel. What's been the reaction to Donald Trump once again trying to insert himself in European politics, specifically Germany in this case?
SHUBERT: Well, the German public doesn't really have a very high opinion of Donald Trump at this point. Especially when as he says in the tweet
that crime rates are at an all-time high. That's just not true. In May of this year, the interior ministry put out the numbers and it showed that
crime rates in Germany were at a historic low. They were actually the lowest they've been in 30 years.
And, yes, it's true that Angela Merkel is facing a simmering political crisis. And yet, over the weekend, we were just talking about this, they
have a poll that shows that she remains the most popular politician in Germany with a percent 50 percent approval rating. So those are some facts
that Donald Trump should probably check before he puts them out on his Twitter feed.
GORANI: And you know what was remarkable is that the chancellor of Austria, Delia, a few days ago, floated the idea and used a word that
really raised some eyebrows, floated the idea of an axis of the willing between Germany, Austria and Italy to limit immigration? I mean, are we
starting to see this idea gain European momentum, that these countries should all ban together to close themselves off to new immigrant waves?
GALLAGHER: Well, you know, you've already got Poland and Hungary that are in breach of violation for not accepting asylum seekers. And like we say,
the crucial point now is what Germany does because they will also set the standard possibly for other European countries. You saw in the situation
in Spain, France says, we will take some of the asylum seekers, but only those who are genuinely seeking asylum. So you've got a lot of economic
migrants as well that maybe don't have asylum status because they're not fleeing war or persecution, necessarily, so there's a large number of
people that fall in between the gaps that are arriving and something will have to be done. Hala.
GORANI: Delia Gallagher in Rome and Atika Shubert in Berlin, thanks to both of you.
The immigration issues in Europe are not new, but they are reaching a critical point for some European governments and the U.S. President has
pointed to some of those E.U. struggles to justify his own harsh actions at the U.S.-Mexico border. We've been waiting for the White House press
briefing. But it has been delayed, I'm being told now. It was originally scheduled for 3:30, which was almost 10 minute ago. It will take place at
the top of the next hour. CNN White House reporter Stephen Collinson joins me now to talk about immigration as a hot topic on two continents and how
it's being politicized and used by some to gain political points.
Let's first talk about Europe. First of all, I want to bring up that tweet by Donald Trump. Who we were just -- that we were just discussing with
Atika Shubert. So he writes, the people of Germany are turning against their leadership as migration is rocking the already tenuous Berlin
coalition. Crime in Germany is way up. Big mistake made all over Europe in allowing millions of people in who have so strongly and violently
changed their culture.
So first of all, crime is at a 30-year low. The numbers certainly do not at all jive with what the president has been tweeting. As far as Angela
Merkel, what is true, Stephen Collinson, is she was much more popular before the immigrant wave into Germany, for sure. But her popularity
remains strong at 50 percent, which is higher than Donald Trump, higher than Emmanuel Macron. Donald Trump has never reached 50 percent
favorability. So they're in that one tweet, you already have two statements that contradict fact. Yet the president is still going forward
with this theme over and over again. Why is he doing that?
[15:40:23] STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Well, Hala, I think one of the reasons is that he's not worried about tweeting something
that's not true then it will be immediately picked up in Europe as not true. He's talking to his own audience. He's in the middle of his own
political storm over this. That tweet is so fascinating, because it has so many levels to it. First of all, there's the immigration issue, which
you've been just talking about and the fact with the crime rate is not rising in Germany. Second, there is this underlying tension and animosity
between the president and Chancellor Merkel and it's clear that the president is taking the opportunity to sort of stick the knife in, if you
like. It was interesting that he spoke by telephone over the weekend to Viktor Orban, the prime minister of Hungary, the hardline European leader
who has been challenging Germany and the other EU policies on immigration. So you have a president of the United States standing up beside an
authoritarian European leader against the person many people still see as the leader of the west. And at the end of that tweet, he talks about how
culture has been changed strongly and violently by immigrants. That's also a message to Americans. It's the classic strongman's argument that there
are outsiders who want to come into a country and victimize and threaten the indigenous culture. That's been used by autocrats throughout history
and I think it's very instructive that that's the kind of imagery that the president is reaching for.
GORANI: Right. And then also maybe people who don't travel as much. I mean you go to Berlin. It's a fantastic city. There are many asylum
seekers and immigrants who are let in to Germany. No reports of any crazy spiking criminality or German culture all of a sudden changing overnight.
I mean, that's all factually incorrect. But it's easy to say that about Germany, because it's a far away country. It's not something that you can
immediately check for yourself. Is that the political calculation the president is making here?
COLLINSON: Right. If you look for a short while at the media, the conservative media in the United States, you hear a lot of horror stories
about waves of racism and violence and a fracture in European societies that don't necessarily follow the truth. But Donald Trump is making
exactly the same argument about people coming in from the Mexican border with the United States. He's saying these are people that are going to
change our society. They're sending their worst people. They're sending their criminals. He has to demagogue this argument because the facts
aren't on his side and this basically is another play of Donald Trump to strengthen his base. There are polls coming out today that show support
among republicans, majority support for this process of separating parents and children. So this is --
GORANI: Among all of Republicans or Trump supporters?
COLLINSON: Mostly, there's a majority among Republicans and Quinnipiac poll today and there's a larger support among Trump supporters of that sort
of sectionalizing of the Republican electrum. But Donald Trump has to drive this tough position. He has the choice of either climbing down. And
Steve Bannon, his former political adviser was on the television this weekend saying that's -- if he climbed down on this issue, it could cost
him 50 seats in the House in the midterm elections.
GORANI: Stephen Collinson, thanks very much. Always appreciate your time.
Still to come tonight, the pictures they would not print. I'll speak to a longtime political cartoonist who says it was cartoons such as these that
got him fired from his job in Pittsburgh. We'll be right back.
[15:45:13] GORANI: An editorial cartoonist says he was fired for making fun of President Trump. Rob Rogers was let go from the Pittsburgh Post-
Gazette last week after 25 years there. He says that in recent months the paper killed a number of his ideas and drawings that he produced. And in
his view, it is because the publisher is becoming more friendly to a right- wing audience. The paper disputes Rogers' claim. It says there was no intention to silence or suppress his voice. Rob Rogers joins me now live
from Pittsburgh. Thanks for being with us. So you say -- we're showing some of your drawings Rob Rogers on air now. You say that you were fired
why? Because you drew cartoons that were critical, poked fun at Donald Trump and management and leadership at the paper didn't want to publish
ROB ROGERS, FIRED PITTSBURGH POST-GAZETTE EDITORIAL CARTOON: Right. So basically, over the two years that we've seen Donald Trump, my publisher
was growing more fond of him I guess is one way you could say it. And so he was more unhappy with the cartoons I was doing, but he wanted me to
soften and then I really didn't want to because I think Trump is a very dangerous president and especially now where he's separating children from
their parents and he's talking about the media as if they are the enemy. So I felt strongly about these cartoons. I don't think any of them were
unreasonable. But yes, then they started killing them. And the week before they let me go they killed six in a row without explanation.
GORANI: I want to put up some of the ones that made the rounds online. Certainly, worldwide I saw these two a lot. One was about the separation
story with a silhouette of Donald Trump that looks like he's snatching a baby from the arms of migrants. There you have it.
GORANI: And another one with Kim Jong-un standing on top of a mountain of skulls and Donald Trump saying to him, you're so talented and your people
love you. Look how they're smiling. Obviously, you see there, skulls. These two did not make it into the paper?
ROGERS: Well, the second one that you described I drew while we were in sort of a stalemate and I just sent it out for syndication. It didn't go
in the paper, because I was -- I wanted to draw something about the summit and we were kind of in a standoff at that point. So I was taking vacation
days. But the other one, yes, the other one was killed.
GORANI: When they told to you soften your drawings, what did they mean by that? What did you understand that that meant?
ROGERS: Well, I think that they wanted -- it's not that they weren't willing to publish some cartoons about Trump. They have published cartoons
about Trump and actually, some hard-hitting ones. But in March, they brought in a new editor who I feel was sort of -- they wanted things that
pokes fun at him but not -- weren't very hard hitting or direct.
GORANI: You were a Pulitzer finalist in '99 for drawing cartoons mocking Bill Clinton, I understand. The editorial director Keith Burns was quoted
as saying, you were offered another contract, you were offered some other deal and that you didn't want that deal.
ROGERS: Well, they -- the deal was pennies for cartoons. It was only after they fired me that they were going to offer me this freelance
contract, but it was a dismal contract and they wanted even more control over my cartoons than they had now. So I just said no.
GORANI: Why do you think -- if the paper didn't change ownership, right? So why do you think in your estimation the intolerance towards your
cartoons or your drawings grew, I should say over the two years that President Trump has been in office for?
[15:50:16] ROGERS: Well, you've had to ask the publisher. But I think that it's directly related to his views changing, becoming more
conservative and then also becoming enamored with Trump and deciding that he liked him and wanted to make the page more conservative and wanted to
make the page more Trump friendly. And so there was no room for me there because he was adamant. And I believe that the readers wanted me there. I
believe that there were a lot of other views on the page and that was kind of what made it a good page, a variety of opinions. But I think they're
shaping it to be a very conservative Trump friendly page.
GORANI: And briefly, do you have any other job offers? Has anyone else approached you?
ROGERS: Well, I have had some freelance offers. So I'm looking at those carefully. I'm still syndicated. I'm drawing a cartoon today. So I
should be back out there tomorrow. But no, no full-time job offers yet. I'm still catching my breath. I'm doing a lot of interviews. So we'll see
GORANI: Rob Rogers, thanks very much for joining us. We appreciate it.
More to come, including the father of the bride breaks his silence. Meghan Markle's dad speaks out for first time since his daughter's wedding. We'll
tell you what he said after this.
GORANI: For many dads hearing that their daughter has fallen in love, well, it's one of the most significant moments for a father. But for a
former TV lighting director from Pennsylvania, it wasn't just life affirming, it was life-changing. Of course, not every father learns that
their daughter is going to marry Prince Harry. And about a month after Meghan Markle's wedding to that very prince, her dad is speaking publically
for the first time. Thomas Markle told Good Morning Britain, his daughter cried when she found out he couldn't walk her down the aisle because of
surgery. He also said Harry phoned to ask for Meghan's hand in marriage, how old-fashioned and the pair ended up talking politics.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THOMAS MARKLE, FATHER OF MEGHAN MARKLE: I've always have a bad attitude about Donald Trump and that's never going to change. My God, I have to
apologize to the rest of the world for my president. All Harry actually did -- he said, because he was -- because Trump was new, he said, give him
a chance. I think Harry's probably changed his name by now. I hope he has.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Anna Stewart is here in London with more. I was surprised by the asking for the hand in marriage.
ANNA STEWART, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Too traditional for you, Hala?
GORANI: She's 30 -- how old is she? 36 years old?
STEWART: She's 36.
GORANI: She was married once before.
STEWART: It's how we do it here. That Thomas Markle got right. The question is whether or not he got it right with this interview which has
ruffled a few feathers and he's had that talking about politics which is big no-no for the royal family. They are publicly not allowed to hold
political opinions and here he is divulging a sort of private conversation with Prince Harry, talking about Brexit, talking about Trump.
But what's really strikes you about this interview is the fact that he is not media savvy. He is not looking down the barrel of the camera. He is
holding on to his ear piece throughout. He is not used to this. He's used to being in the background lighting director not in the spotlight.
[15:55:06] GORANI: Why did he give this interview? Was he paid?
STEWART: That we do not know.
GORANI: Because I think Piers Morgan said something about money issue --
STEWART: There's a lot of speculation about money exchanging hands. And again, that would be something the palace would not be very keen on. They
haven't made any comment so far on this interview. But it has ruffled a few feathers. He has been very vocal. But some of it was touching. Some
of it showed that he really cared, he really was very sad not to make that wedding and he had prepared for it. Take a listen to what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARKLE: I worked on a little speech and the little speech actually had the phone calls in talking to Harry and how Meghan introduced him as this guy,
this nice guy from England, this prince and that was part of the story. And then I went on to basically thank the royal family for opening up to my
child. That would have been the speech. However, I didn't make that. But the preparations for all of this were done by my daughter who worked very
hard to get everything ready for me if I came there. I feel bad that she put all that work in and I didn't do it, but I couldn't do much about it
laying on the couch with a bad heart.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STEWART: What we saw there is he does put to rest that he didn't go because of his heart operation. That it wasn't that he was embarrassed, if
you remember by those staged photos. But, you know, was it the right thing to do?
GORANI: He was also asked -- I mean, you said those political questions, Brexit and Trump. Piers Morgan asked him, what did Prince Harry say about
those issues and you said it's a big no-no.
STEWART: Well, absolutely. It's against royal protocol to air political views if you're part of the royal family. To be fair, they weren't
groundbreaking, you know, they weren't earthshattering views. He said on Brexit, Prince Harry apparently said that he is open to the experiment of
Brexit. He also apparently said that Thomas Markle should give President Trump more of a chance, because Thomas Markle was kind of sounding off
about President Trump. These things aren't earth shattering but it does go against royal protocol as does speaking to the media and he was already
speaking to the number of times.
GORANI: That's right. Absolutely. We are simply running out of time. We could sit here and talk.
BY the way, England scored. You don't care about the World Cup or your country?
STEWART: Go England.
GORANI: Two-one against Tunisia. They won, two-one. Tunisia fans, I'm sorry. England fans, well done.
Thanks for watching tonight. I'm Hala Gorani. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next.