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HALA GORANI TONIGHT
E.U. Leaders Reach Agreement On Migration; Judge Orders Shooting Suspect Held Without Bail; Jordan, Israel Providing Aid To Fleeing Syrian Civilians; Iraq Executes 12 ISIS Members Convicted Of Terrorism; Rescue Workers Find New Path Into Thai Cave; Aired 3-4p ET
Aired June 29, 2018 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ZAIN ASHER, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. Live for you from New York. I'm Zain Asher in for my colleague, Hala Gorani.
Tonight, a breakthrough in Europe's migrant crisis. E.U. leaders have a deal after marathon all-night talks, but it comes unfortunately, just as
100 migrants are feared dead in the Mediterranean.
And the mass movement of people continues, this time in Southern Syria. We are live for you in the Golan Heights as Israel provides aid across the
And a coordinated attack, that is what prosecutors are calling a horrific shooting at a newspaper office here in the United States. We are live for
you at the scene.
They had been at odds for several weeks, but at the 11th hour, the E.U. finally came together to stop itself from splitting in two. Leaders in
Brussels have agreed to share responsibility for resettling migrants as well as increased funding to and ramping up the fight against people
smugglers as well.
The deal was welcomed by nations on both sides of what's becoming a growing political divide.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EMMANUEL MACRON, FRENCH PRESIDENT (through translator): After nine hours debate and work, a deal has been struck and this is good news for France.
This was the result of a joint effort. European cooperation has won rather than a non-agreement for national decisions. That would have not been
efficient or sustainable.
GIUSOPPE CONTE, ITALIAN PRIME MINISTER (through translator): After this European summit, Europe is more responsible and offers more solidarity.
Today, Italy is no longer alone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHER: Not privy to these talks, the very people whose lives and livelihoods could depend on them. As a tragic and terrifying reminder of
exactly why these discussions matter, sadly, 100 people are feared dead after a rubber boat capsized off the Libyan coast.
A lot of people making that dangerous journey from North Africa to seek a better life in Europe. This deal, of course, will no doubt affect a lot of
I want to bring in our two experts on the E.U. migrant deal. Atika Shubert is in Berlin, and Nina dos Santos is covering the developments from
Brussels. Nina, this deal very much focused on migrants that are coming from North Africa and other places to Europe. It didn't so much deal with
the migrants who are actually already in Europe. Why not?
NINA DOS SANTOS, CNN MONEY EUROPE EDITOR: That's the big political problem. Remember, Europe was facing up to around 1 million people hitting
its shores just three years ago. Now, we are seeing about 5 percent of that number making it to Europe.
The difference is that what has been the wave of migration is now turned into a political problem, because we have all these populist parties in
places like Italy, that are turning the ships back at the ports and also places like Hungary and Poland refusing to take migrants.
Even members of Germany's ruling coalition at odds with their own chancellor on this issue. So, migration really goes to the heart of where
Europe goes from here. What was interesting about this statement is that in vague and non-committal ways, they managed to eventually placate all
On the one hand, there was a deal to try and shuffle migrants on one part of Europe to the next. There's no sense yet on which countries
definitively will be taking large numbers of migrants. We have had some signs from countries like Spain that they will take some from Germany and
so on and so forth.
They will be creating centers for processing migrant applications inside the E.U. Another big initiative is creating centers to process
applications outside of the E.U. and disembarking platforms potentially in North Africa. That's a very complicated situation altogether -- Zain.
ASHER: Yes, very complicated and no doubt it will certainly not be easy. Atika, let me bring you in because a lot was riding on this deal for Angela
Merkel. You know, she wanted to silence her critics. Does this deal do enough to do that?
ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. I mean, it does seem that it's at least bought her some time. She has got
the wording that she needs in this document to placate her critics. This was basically the words that said, member states can turn away refugees at
their border if they are applying in another E.U. state.
[15:05:03] The caveat to that is that the member states need to cooperate with each other. She got the wording that she needed for her conservative
critics within her own party. She followed it up with two bilateral agreements.
She announced afterwards that Germany had bilateral agreements with Greece and Spain to return asylum seekers that are already being processed in
those countries. That's exactly the kind of bilateral deal she said she was going to deliver.
This is important because her own interior minister had threatened to break her coalition government unless she was able to deliver this agreement. It
does seem like she has been able to do that now -- Zain.
ASHER: Nina, you know, you talked about these processing centers being set up not just inside the E.U., but also in North Africa as well. You
mentioned a second ago that it's extremely difficult, I assume partly because you need the cooperation of North African governments to do that if
you are going to set up these processing centers in places like Libya and other countries in North Africa. It's not cheap. How are those kinks
going to be worked out?
DOS SANTOS: Well, this is the big question. And even Donald Tusk, the head of the European Council, who invited all of these members to the
summit acknowledged that in his final press conference saying, look, the devil is in the detail. These are all good ideas and principle.
But we really have to keep the commitment going from here on. That will be the challenge to make sure that things are actually delivered.
Particularly when it comes to this issue of this disembarking platforms, that is a very contentious issue, Zain.
On the one hand, countries like Libya aren't stable enough to have embassies for some of these European Union countries present in places like
Libya. So, how will they organize this? How will they make representations to the government of Libya? Who knows?
When it comes to international law as well, there's a big question of who will govern these camps? Will it be European Union law, Libyan law, if
they set up centers in other countries like Morocco, will they have to have deals with them?
How much will they pay? But remember that the E.U. does have a kind of blueprint for this type of deal with Turkey, which was awarded more money
in this summit to keep millions of Syrian refugees who have been there for quite some time as part of a rather successful deal to try to close the
border between Turkey and Greece to stop people arriving from the Eastern Mediterranean.
The hope here is that with the extra money that they have given to the Coast Guards, the extra money that they're going to try and give to some of
these European Union frontier countries, that they can for the moment start to tackle migration and stop people trying to arrive to Europe and get
those who are economic migrants to go back to the countries that they came from -- Zain.
ASHER: All right. Atika Shubert, Nina Dos Santos, guys, thank you so much. Appreciate that.
All right. I want to update you on some tragic news that broke 24 hours ago this time yesterday while I was on the air. A shooting -- a massive
shooting in Annapolis, Maryland, that actually claimed the lives of people five. The suspect in that shooting appeared at a court hearing on Friday.
The judge ordered Jarrod Ramos held without bail. The prosecutor said that is because evidence of suggesting a coordinated attack. Officials say
Ramos, the man you see on the screen, barricaded -- listen to this, barricaded the back door to the newspaper office to try to kill as many
people as possible.
They say he first threatened the paper several years ago over some reporting that he didn't like on his apparent harassment of a local woman.
Five people were killed in this shooting. Ramos is charged with a count of first degree murder for each victim.
I want the latest from Brian Todd in Annapolis, Maryland. Brian, obviously, you hear something like this and your heart bleeds for the
friends and family members of the victims. This particular shooting is devastating, I think, for every single person across the world who works in
a newsroom, journalism.
You see the images and it's horrific. Walk us through the specific motive of this suspect in terms of why he did what he did and also what we learned
at the hearing today.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Zain, we are putting together a mosaic of this man's life over the past several years, according to police, court
documents, according to sources we speak to, according to prosecutors.
The picture that you are getting is that he harbored a real resentment toward this newspaper, at least since 2011 when they wrote an article
naming him regarding an online stalking incident that he had with a local woman.
We interviewed that woman's attorney a short time ago who laid it out in detail, how Jarrod Ramos would send her messages, would post messages on
social media that were threatening toward her and toward others.
He believed that she was a friend of his, but that he turned against her and was very, very threatening online. According to this attorney, he was
smart enough to never confront her or him in person.
[15:10:09] But he still stalked them and threatened them. So, this was a man who this attorney termed as being purely malevolent and pure evil over
the past several years. Again, he did seem to have a grievance against the newspaper since they wrote an article naming him in connection with the
dangers of befriending someone on social media and what that can do.
They used him as an example apparently. So, that's kind of what we're getting from this local attorney. That's again part of the mosaic of this
man's life, he had an ongoing resentment here.
ASHER: There was one thing that I found as I was reading on the story yesterday that I found particularly -- I guess I would use the word
strange, is that he had his fingerprints altered and also aside from the fact that he didn't have an I.D. on him, it made it difficult to identify
In terms of he had his fingerprints altered, I don't really understand how that works. Explain that to our audience. It does suggest a very detained
level of planning that went into this.
TODD: Well, we do have to clarify that part about the fingerprints being altered. The police have since basically debunked that information. They
have said that was not the case. As far as they know, his fingerprints were not altered.
They did say that they had to identify him or they used facial recognition software as a means of identifying him. What all that means as far as his
planning to not be identified as being a suspect in this case, I think that's a little unclear.
We may get more details on that later on. We do know he had, according to prosecutors and police, he had some plans. He had a plan to evade capture.
He had a plan possibly -- they imply strongly he had a plan to trap people inside by barricading a back entrance.
So, there was that level of planning going on here. The fingerprinting is a little unclear at this point. The police have debunked that information
saying that that is not the case.
ASHER: I see. So, yes, obviously, you know, there was so much going on yesterday that false information came out. Thank you so much for
clarifying that. Even though we heard his fingerprints had been altered, that that ended up not being the case. Brian Todd, appreciate you
clarifying and giving us the low down on what happened yesterday. Thank you so much. Appreciate that.
U.S. President Donald Trump spoke about the shooting on Friday. He says his government won't rest until it has done absolutely everything in its
power to reduce violent crime and protect innocent life.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I would like to address the horrific shooting that took place yesterday at "Capital
Gazette" newsroom in Annapolis, Maryland. This attack shocked the conscience of our nation and filled our hearts with grief. Journalists
like all Americans should be free from the fear of being violently attacked while doing their job.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHER: The governor of Maryland has ordered state flags to fly at half- staff until sunset on Monday to honor the five people who were killed during yesterday's shooting. One of them was assistant editor, Rob
Hiaasen. He wrote a Sunday column for the paper.
His brother, a best-selling author and columnist, Carl Hiaasen, says he is devastated and heartsick over the loss. He spoke about his brother to CNN.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARL HIAASEN, ROBERT HIAASEN'S BROTHER (via telephone): -- probably never heal for all of us. As we watched what's been happening in this country
and this tragedy will eventually fall out of the headlines and a few weeks from now will be replaced by another one with victims and families
grieving, just as ours is. It's insane cycle of violence that we are now in the middle of. It's a grimly and tragically predictable.
This time our own family was -- ironically, after writing -- I've been in the newspaper business for over 40 years. Rob was in it a long time. We
have written about this sort of thing very, very often. Now it touches desperately close to home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHER: Carl Hiaasen there basically saying that he is heartsick and he doesn't think he will ever get over what happened to his brother.
Obviously, we hope his brother rests in peace and we send our love to the Hiaasen family.
On some other stories we are following, the United Nations is warning of a catastrophe in Syria as tens of thousands of civilians flee a fierce
government offensive. Russian-backed forces are battling to retake Daraa Province from rebels unleashing new air strikes today.
Opposition activists say nearly 200 people have been killed in the offensive so far including children. The civilians fleeing for their lives
are heading towards Jordan and also the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights as well.
[15:00:00] Those borders are closed, but this is key, Israel and Jordan are both giving aid, but those are -- in terms of Golan Heights, are indeed
I want to bring in Ian Lee, who is joining us live now in the Golan Heights. So, Ian, we can all sort of acknowledge and I guess empathize
with the complicated history between various countries in the region. But what has Israel said specifically about why they are not accepting these
IAN LEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Zain, right now, you know, speaking with the Israeli military, they say that they are watching the situation very
closely. In a statement, though, they released today, they said that they won't allow people to cross over. They have allowed people who were
injured to cross over before.
But Israel doesn't want to have these large refugee camps that we have seen in other countries pop up here on the Golan Heights. I was out there on
that frontier, the fence that separates the Israeli part of Golan Heights and Syria.
And you know, looking up and down that border, you could just see the people coming in and this tent city growing all up and down that border.
LEE (voice-over): The latest wave of human suffering in Syria, shove what they can, a life's worth of possessions crammed into a truck. Kilometers
away the Syrian regime bombards the Daraa region in the country's southwest corner.
The familiar black smoke of the civil war. More buildings, more towns and villages reduced to rubble. Tens of thousands have fled. Most towards
Jordan. Others to the frontier separating Syria from the Israel occupied Golan Heights. A new life on the run, family in tow, without electricity
or clean running water.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We fled because of the indiscriminate bombings that never stop. Every day there's a massacre.
The situation is so terrible. We have been here for a week. We have seen zero help. No water, no food. It's a catastrophic situation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We have no shelter from the sun or cold. We can't go back and get anything because of the heavy bombing.
Where are we supposed to go? There are no tents here. There's nothing here. We have been like this for a year. Where are we supposed to go? Do
we go back to the bombing and shelling?
LEE: On the high ground, Israel watches the new arrivals. Thousands so gathering at the fence. Thursday night, an Israeli Army convoy opened the
wire and delivered tents, food, medical supplies and clothing.
Over several years Israel has treated thousands of injured Syrians, but the Assad regime's latest offensive creates a new crisis. Israel is adamant
it's not going to open the gates and let refugees in. Crossing on foot would be dangerous, too, leftover mines stan the frontier.
(on camera): Standing here on this side of the fence, we're relatively safe, although, we have heard some gunshots. But just a couple hundred
meters down the road for those Syrians fleeing that fighting, their future is uncertain.
(voice-over): Tonight, the war will be in the distance. They'll get some sleep they have lacked for days, but who knows what tomorrow will bring?
LEE: Zain, you know, the world food program has been distributing food to the people all along Jordan as well as Israel. The one thing here is, we
have seen this tactic before by the Assad regime. They have gone to different enclaves inside Syria. They launch their offensives. They clean
out the rebel held areas.
But this time, you know, it's unlikely that these people will be shipped off to Idlib Province where a lot of these people go to once there's some
sort of agreement between the regime and the rebels who have been surrounded a usually starved out.
Here they are along these borders with Jordan and Israel. And so, as they push on, will these people, you know, in their desperation try to cross
over even though these countries say their borders are closed?
You know, there are U.N. bases that go up and down this border. That's also something we haven't heard from the U.N. agency that's in charge of
these border outposts. What their role would be. Presumably, these people fleeing could possibly take refuge in there. It's really just unknown at
this hour -- Zain.
ASHER: That's exactly right. Ian Lee live for us there, thank you so much. Appreciate that.
All right. Still to come, prayers across Thailand for that missing youth football team. We will bring you the very latest on that search. Stay
ASHER: Iraqi officials say they executed 12 ISIS members Thursday who had been convicted of terrorism, carrying out the orders of Iraq's prime
minister, Haider al-Abadi. Al-Abadi called for expediting executions a day after the bodies of eight Iraqi security force members were found. CNN's
Jomana Karadsheh has more on Abadi's decision.
JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So just to give you a bit background on this, recently eight members of the Iraqi security forces were abducted
by ISIS in Northern Iraq on a road between Diyala and Kirkuk Province.
Last Saturday, ISIS releasing a hostage video showing these abductees and giving the Iraqi government a three-day ultimatum to release all female
members of the group and senior leaders of ISIS it has in custody or the hostages will be killed.
There was no public reaction from the Iraqi government. On Wednesday, the Iraqi military announced that they had retrieved the mutilated bodies of
those hostages. There was a lot of anger amongst ordinary Iraqis for the failure of the Iraqi government to save these hostages.
On Thursday, we saw the Iraqi prime minister making public statements, Haider al-Abadi, saying basically that according to forensic evidence they
had, the hostages were killed before the end of the ultimatum and is was trying to create chaos and to create tension in the country.
He also went on to order the implementation of the death penalty for ISIS members who are on death row who have exhausted their appeals and the Iraqi
authorities announced on Thursday that 12 members of the group who were on death row, who exhausted their appeals, were executed.
Of course, this is raising concerns amongst some groups that the executive authority in Iraq is -- seems to be in this case using the judiciary as a
revenge tool. This incident also a reminder that while ISIS lost all the territory that it once controlled in Iraq.
And while the Iraqi government declared victory over ISIS late last year, the terror group still exists in the country. It doesn't mean an end to
ISIS. It still has the ability to carry out devastating attacks. Jomana Karadsheh, CNN, Istanbul.
ASHER: A week after youth football team disappeared in Thailand, rescue workers are battling monsoon rains as they search for a cave or search in a
cave for any sign of the teens. They discovered a hidden opening that may be a new point of entry. Here is Kristie Lu Stout with more.
KRISTIE LU STOUT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The sun has just come up, but these rescue workers from the U.K. and Thailand are already on the
[15:25:06] They are part of a desperate hunt for a youth football team that is believed to be trapped in a cave beneath this forest in Northern
Thailand. The 12 boys and their coach have been missing since Saturday.
Floods have cut off the main entrance. This group walks for hours through thick jungle terrain, searching for any holes in the rock that could lead
below. For Vernon Ensworth (ph) and Robert Harper, it is familiar terrain. They have explored the cave numerous times.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Over the years, 10, 15. Many, many times.
STOUT: The vast underground cave network runs up to ten kilometers. They hope their knowledge of its tunnels and chambers can help the hunt for the
ROBERT HARPER, CAVE RESCUE EXPERT: It's 26 meters over there is where the end of the cave underneath us is likely to be. Vernon, who has explored
the far end of the cave, knows that there's a high chamber. It's unlikely -- very unlikely, but we have to rule out all possibilities the children
could have got to that cave.
STOUT: The group splits up to explore two natural holes in the earth known as chimneys, hoping they might provide access to the cave below. A climber
is lowered into the shaft. A camera on his helmet sends live pictures to a makeshift command center. The team doesn't know how deep the hole goes or
where it will lead.
A week on, they must try everything. It could be a dead end. We still don't know what it will be says this official. Hundreds of people are
involved in this massive search and rescue effort. They are battling the elements. Monsoon rains that pour in even as authorities try to pump the
On Friday, Thailand's prime minister visited the cave and urged rescue workers to work as quickly as they could. I'm here to give moral support
to the boys' relatives, he says. What's most important is that the morale of everyone is still high.
For the families, camped outside, the wait is unbearable. They and this whole nation are praying for the safe return of their boys. Kristie Lu
ASHER: Still to come here, why do they risk their lives to come to a country that's actually already rolled up the welcome mat? We will hear
from some migrants in their own words who have fled horrific circumstances, particularly in Central America. Migration is not really just an issue
that's unique to North America.
Coming up, a look at how global trends could be linked to a growing tide of international populism. That's next.
[15:30:22] ASHER: The U.S. Congress has left Washington for a weeklong recess without any resolution of the migrant crisis that's triggered
protests nationwide. The Trump administration is facing a deadline from a federal judge to reunite migrant children who have been taken from their
parents at the border. Thousands of children remain separated as I speak. But there was at least one very, very happy reunion yesterday after a court
ordered the immediate release of a detained Brazilian boy. His mother said this to reporters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LIDIA SOUZA, REUNITED WITH SON (through translator): Well, when I got there, he already knew that I was taking him home.
I said, who told you? He goes, I woke up this morning and I had a feeling. I'm so happy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHER: Many of the migrants are coming from Central America, obviously that woman was Brazilian. But a lot of them are coming from Central
America fleeing violence back home. Our Nick Valencia has been talking to some of them about why their families risk the journey when they know what
awaits at the U.S. border. Crossing U.S. border, and Nick, we know that crossing the border from Mexico into the United States, it is no joke. It
is extremely dangerous. But a lot of people are willing to take that risk because they're at the point where given what they've come from, they feel
as though they have absolutely nothing to lose.
NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And we had a raw and very candid view of that yesterday, Zain. We were embedded with the customs and border
protection. Border patrol agent name Robert Rodriguez who took us to the very front lines right there on the border between Reynoso Tamaulipas
Mexico and Granjeno, Texas where we saw the very intense sequence of events play out. Smugglers staging as they prepared to load migrant families onto
a raft. One of them just 3 years old.
VALENCIA: Through the tree brush, border patrol agent Robert Rodriguez spots what he says are three smugglers preparing to launch a raft filled
He says they're filming us, he says.
Along with agent Rodriguez, we followed the raft downstream. It's there we see this. Six Central American migrants, some of those who are on the
raft. One of them traveling with his father is just 3 years old.
What are you looking for here?
He is asking for asylum. Strangers would show up to his house. They would ask for money. And they would threaten him in front of his child as they
kept threatening to kill him. And they were even -- he said they would even kill the 3-year-old.
You know there's people here that are very much against illegal immigration. They don't want people like you in the United States. What
do you say to them?
He says those people don't know what I've been through. They don't know what I go through nightly. They don't know what it's like to fear death.
This mother and her 13-year-old were also in the group. Holding back tears, she says, she never wanted to leave Honduras. If it wasn't for MS-
13, her son says, they would have never left.
Why are you crying?
He said he didn't want to leave Honduras. That's why he's crying. He's really sorry for putting his mom in this position. He said, of course, I
would never let my son be captured there. So she's saying even though she -- if zero tolerance was still in place, she said she would still cross.
That's how much fear they have.
And from here, the group will be taken to a processing center joining hundreds of others just like them. Even still, they're the lucky ones.
And they crossed just last week, the parents and children would have assure they've been torn apart by the U.S. government.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VALENCIA: And seeing the look in their eyes, Zain, it says if they had this deep blank stare that -- as if they had seen a ghost. It gives you
really an up close and upfront perspective of what families are willing to go through they say to keep from being killed in their homeland.
ASHER: And for them even though obviously being separated from family members might not be ideal, a lot of them are still -- people here have
talked about it being a deterrent. It's clearly not a deterrent because a lot of them are fleeing so much violence. I understand that you actually
was at an immigration hearing today. Just tell us what you learned.
VALENCIA: Yes. Standing -- we're sitting in front of the Port Isabel Detention Center. And it's this facility where we were told initially by
ICE about a week and a half ago where family reunifications would happen. We've been consistently asking for access into the facility, to tour the
facility. They customarily denied it. But today, they did grant us access into an immigration hearing. We were under the impression that we would
see Central American immigration hearing, an asylum case. We ended up being put in a room, a courtroom where we saw the hearing of a 38-year-old
Cameroonian national who was applying for asylum.
A man who says he's HIV/AIDS positive and had to flee his country because of this sympathy that he has for Anglophones in Cameroon. It was about an
hour into the hearing that the judge released her verdict giving him asylum, granting him asylum. And that is a huge news if only because
nationally, Zain, the asylum rate granted by immigration judges is about 35 percent to 40 percent. In the south, In Atlanta, Georgia, we're seeing a
hit more -- it's even worse, about three percent to five percent. So it gives you -- if you are somebody who is currently detained right now, a
little bit of hope that the system is still working, despite the stark backdrop of zero tolerance and what the Trump administration's views are on
illegal immigration. Zain.
[15:35:03] ASHER: Nick, thank you so much. It was a little bit windy where you were. I tried very hard to make out what you were saying. But
either way, thank you so much for being our eyes and our ears on the ground there and really sharing the voices of all those people who are risking
everything to cross the border. Thanks you so much, Nick.
All right. On either side of the Atlantic, migration is becoming an issue of both political contention and also political capital as well. One that
is particularly energizing those on the hard right. But is the link -- is the link between migration and populism really a straightforward as a lot
of people might believe. That's something I asked our Fareed Zakaria. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST: Well, it's a very good and complicated question. At one level it's very simple. Everywhere you see immigration, you see
populism and a particular kind of populism, right wing nationalist populism. That is the common thread in almost all these countries. But
what makes it complicated is, we're not actually in the middle of an immigration crisis, neither in Europe nor in the United States. There was
one in Europe three or four years ago.
There was one in the United States five or six years ago. But there isn't one now. So part of it is that it's a perception. Maybe it's a lagging
perception. The other complexity is that the places that are most worried about immigration within Europe, within Britain, within the United States
have very few immigrants. The places that have lots of immigrants, think of London and New York, are very comfortable with immigrants. So it's the
places where there are few immigrants that the fears of immigrants are greatest.
And then there's the final point, which is there's an economic fear, which is that the immigrants will take jobs or demand government services.
That's often the one that's talked about. There's also a deeper fear and that is that the older wider part of the population will be in some way
culturally swept aside by these new forces, these new people. So all of that makes it very difficult thing to handle, because you're trying to sort
through actual issues versus perceptions. You're trying to sort through economic ones, which can be managed. You can always spend more or less
with cultural ones, which are more emotional. The dominant reality, which is one side plays with fear on this and the other side with hope.
Unfortunately, in politics, fear often wins.
ASHER: You know what? You bring up such an interesting point. I live in New York. I'm originally from London. I've lived pretty much my whole
life in cities that have a huge number of immigrants. As a result, the fear just really isn't there. It's in place where it's all about the
perception rather than the reality. So my question to you is why is it that the human race -- I don't know if I should generalize and say the
human race. But at least in certain parts of Europe and the United States, we seem to care more about protecting our borders than we do about helping
people who are fleeing for their lives. Why is that? Where is the empathy?
ZAKARIA: I think it's a very difficult question. It's the essence of nationalism of tribalism, in a sense. We have a conception of an in-group
that we protect and we think of as more important. What I wish -- sometimes, we could explain to people is that there is going to be no loss
for the people in that in-group by having people come in.
If you think about the history of Britain, of the United States, of Canada, of Australia, these places have all been enriched by immigrants,
culturally, politically but also economically. These are the hardest working people. They are the ones who come in and willing to take jobs
others aren't willing to do. And it doesn't really get rid of the old culture at all. It adds to it. But I think people, particularly when
times are not good economically, they focus on what they might lose rather than what they might gain.
[15:40:59] ASHER: Fareed, you talk about when things are not good economically. But I look the United States right now, and you think about
the unemployment rate, it's less than percent. It's the lowest in decades. So the E.U. actually just came up with a migrant deal. And part of their
solution for what is happening in Europe in terms of immigration, people fleeing from North Africa, part of the solution they came up with is to set
up processing centers in North Africa to process asylum seekers in North Africa before they get on boats and try to head to Italy or Greece or
wherever. Is that something that the U.S. could do when it comes to Central America? And if they can do it, the big question is, should they?
ZAKARIA: Of course they could do something like it. I don't know if they could do it in Central American countries themselves, because in some cases
ZAKARIA: Precisely. That would be the place you could do it. It would precisely be Mexico. And I think that would be relatively easy to do. You
would need to have a good relationship with the Mexican government, which the Trump administration does not have. But let's be honest.
The Trump administration, many of the governments in Europe -- not the governments but the forces in Europe, the people, the politicians who are
playing with this issue, they're not really trying to solve a problem. They are trying to win politically. They are trying to inject fear into
the atmosphere. They're trying to demonize the opposition as being for open borders and the kind of cultural swamping of the country. And so it's
not like they're looking for the most rational, sensible, pragmatic solution to this.
ASHER: So in a sense, an immigration crisis would actually help them, really?
ASHER: They can use that.
ZAKARIA: Look, if you look at what Donald Trump has done, if you look back a month ago, month and a half ago, the democrats were up 14 points in
what's called the generic ballot, that is when you look at the congressional elections and you just say, are you going to vote for a
Democrat or a Republican? Fourteen percent more people said they would vote for a Democrat. So Donald Trump decides to nationalize the election
He starts hammering hard. He says the Democrats are for open borders. He talks about deportation and he talks about all the issues he's been
bringing up. The generic ballot is now down to seven percent in favor of Democrats. Which sounds like a lot but it isn't. It's essentially gone
from 14 to seven. Why? Because Trump turned it into a referendum on immigration, scared the hell out of people. It works.
ASHER: That was Fareed Zakaria just giving us a very sort of just deep look at the rise in populism and its link with immigration.
All right. So turning on to other stories out of the U.K. It was one of the worst tragedies in modern sport. Today, a U.K. judge ruled that the
police commander in charge on the day of the Hillsborough disaster can stand trial. David Duckenfield will be tried on a charge of manslaughter
by gross negligence of 95 Liverpool football fans who died in the Hillsborough stadium in England in April 1989.
I want to bring in World Sports, Don Riddell. He's been following this story. He's live now from Atlanta. So, Don, the people who aren't
familiar with this case, walk us through what happened on that tragic day in April 1989. And also, why has it taken so long for the families to get
closer to justice?
DON RIDDELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it really was just the most extraordinary tragedy, the most incredible day of football which soured
after six minutes. This was the FA Cup semifinal between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest in April the 15th, 189, as you say. And it quickly
became apparent that there was a serious problem behind the goal of a Leppings Lane end of the stadium where a serious crush of supporters was
building up. Now, football back in those days was very different to what we see in England now. Supporters used to have to go into pens behind the
goal and they were crushed and 96 of them were killed.
What has happened since, you are now looking at this timeline of almost 30 years in which it's taken the families of the victims to try and get to the
bottom of what actually happened that day and to try and hold somebody accountable for what happened. We are now -- the families hope -- coming
towards the end of that process with this news that David Duckenfield and four others will be stand in trial shortly. And it's worth noting that --
I mean, these men are now in their 60s, 70s.
David Duckenfield is 73. One man is even 80 years old now. But the families are certainly hoping that they can finally get to the bottom of
this. For them, this has just been the most excruciating journey. It is full credit to them that the campaign has lasted this long, because they
really were facing quite incredible odds and a lot of people in the United Kingdom weren't particularly interested in helping them on their search for
truth and justice.
ASHER: You know, you never really heal from something so painful as a lost loved one. But hopefully this will get them closer to just some degree of
I want to talk about the man whose picture we had on the screen just a second ago. If we could pull it back up. David Duckenfield. He's 73
years old. He was the match commander on the day. Why do some people believe that he may have had some sort of role in this tragedy? That he
wasn't able to act in a way that could have prevented it?
[15:45:20] RIDDELL: Well, first of all, we have to be very careful about what we say. Because now that this is an active trial in the United
Kingdom, the media has to be very careful how this story is now reported. But essentially, he was the man in charge of the responsibility -- of the
safety of everybody in the stadium that day. Quite clearly, there was a failure at some point with so many people dying, hundreds more being
injured and thousands arguably traumatized by what they witnessed that day. So we have to be very careful about what we say. And to that extent, it is
worth giving you a taste of how the families feel today. If you go on social media and many of these campaigners are really quite prominent. All
of them are saying, be so careful about what you say, about what you report. They have waited so long and they have fought so hard. They do
not want anything to jeopardize this trial that they've been waiting so long for. So you will find that they are being very careful and very
respectful and just wanting the legal process to finally play out to its conclusion, all be it nearly 30 years after this horrific story began.
ASHER: Don, thank you so much for reporting on the story responsibly and letting our audience know that there is a limit to what we can and can't
say. And obviously we have to respect that on the air. Don Riddell live for us there. Thank you so much. Appreciate that.
OK. So Bali's International airport has just reopened after canceling more than 300 flights because of volcanic ash and active volcano nearby is
spewing ash in vapor which can cause jet engines to fail. But a change of winds have made it possible for planes to take off again. About 8,000
passengers were grounded on the popular tourist island. Airlines are now rescheduling their flights. So officials warn that there could be more
earthquake tremors around Bali.
All right. Still to come here on the show tonight, what a World Cup it has been so far. Full of so many surprises. So many obsessed about. What's
going to happen next when we get to knockout stage? And the use of VAR whose aim added to all of the excitement and of course (INAUDIBLE) come
back, we will assess the impact that's bring.
ASHER: I have to say, I was very, very sad this week when my home country, Nigeria, was actually knocked out of the World Cup. But if they're
watching, if anyone on the Nigerian team is watching, they can go home with pride, because they played very, very well against Argentina and we
And so the group games in terms of the World Cup is finally over. It has been a wild ride, certainly a roller coaster full of so much excitement.
So far, we've had goals, we've had glory and a huge, giant killing with the elimination of current holder, Germany, of course in the first round. That
happened I think that was on Wednesday. The tournament now moves to the last 16. And the next games are knockouts. What does that mean? That
means if you lose, you go home. So certainly the tension is very, very high, adding to all that excitement. And causing some degree of
controversy as well is the use of VAR which is Virtual Assistant Refereeing used for the first time ever at this World Cup. FIFA has released data
from the first 48 games. It shows that VAR is indeed working. With 99.3 percent of decisions correctly made with VAR versus 95 percent without it.
So only a slight increase, but it's certainly working.
[15:50:44] And ahead of FIFA revealing that VAR accuracy data, our CNN Talk panel shared their views on the merits of video replays at this year's
World Cup. Take a listen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The other thing that's made this World Cup exciting for good or bad is this VAR system, which I am very -- we'll probably talk
about this later. I'm very skeptical about it. But it's not doubt about. It's caused a lot of talking points. And that's what you want after a
match. At work the next day, the water cooler discussions, people want to have these controversial moments.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Peter has already said, yes, the VAR is just not what we expected. It's worked for some and against others. #Nigeria, he's put
that. And talking about the neutrals being the ones who can really judge whether this is exciting or not, Jamie says it needs Scotland and the USA
to make one of the best ever.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Scotland wasn't going to happen, was it? And probably not next time either. I think of 48 teams. Is it next time or the time
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it's the time after.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let's have a look and see what the last 16, and looks like this is going into knockout round. Of course, that begins tomorrow.
We mentioned for England, Colombia, that's after the kind of lackluster game that we saw last night.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because both teams are already qualified. So similar thing happened with France and Denmark. That was a nail-nail draw. It was
a brilliant goal in the England match. And I think -- England did really well against -- played well against Tunisia and Panama. Not the most
difficult teams. And I would have liked to have seen a proper competitive match against Belgium. But both teams were never going to play their first
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think they were resting some of our best players. You see that draw there and it does look like a normal World Cup group of
16 dominated by European and South American teams. But that's not really the story of this World Cup. The story of this World Cup has been the
smaller teams coming through and really surprising and winning huge.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The underdogs.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Iceland in their first-ever game in the World Cup final stages drawing against the mighty Argentina, twice World Cup winners.
The likes of the African teams, Senegal and Nigeria doing extremely well. What a shame for the first time in a while we haven't got an African team
in the group of 16.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just to continue, Liam's, point. Panama, I think Panama qualifying for the first time, even though they really lost badly to
England. There's a great clip of some Panamanians commentators before the match starts, when the players are singing the national anthem and they're
in tears. Just goes to show how football is the most important non- important thing in the world and how it --for these countries it's such a sense of pride.
ASHER: They say good things come in threes, but four is even better. A sigh of relief for wildlife conservationists, coming up.
[15:55:14] ASHER: Well, there could be a sale coming your way, because H&M has a global inventory problem. More than $4 billion worth of unsold
clothes. Huge amount. The Swedish fashion company has a stock pile of unsold clothes have actually grown 13 percent over the past year. Weaker
sales growth is dragging down the company's profits. And investors are actually calling for clearances. A lot more of them. But analysts say
that H&M won't actually want to hurt the company's image and actually may have more measured sales instead or sell the stock to retailers or
operating in countries where H&M doesn't necessarily have a presence or any stores. The company could actually end up recycling or donating some
clothes to charity instead.
All right. Coming up on CNN this Saturday, we'll have a look at the world's tallest mountain. CNN will air a three-part documentary that
follows two British climbers on their quest to conquer Mt. Everest. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEN FOGLE, ADVENTURER: Quick update. It's about 4:30 in the morning. There's been a problem with the regulators. Mine went and then Mark's just
went. I am here and I'm going to show you my view. There's the sun. It's a bit scary here, to be honest.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHER: All right. That was a sneak preview. The Challenge airs Saturday 8:30 p.m. in the evening London time.
And finally, some great news for an endangered species. Four Amur tiger cubs were born in a zoo just -- isn't this adorable? My goodness. This is
just outside London. There are only about 500 tigers of this particular species, which is also known, by the way, as Siberian tigers, in the world.
It's very, very few of them. We don't know whether the cubs are male or female just yet. This video is so adorable. The zookeepers are keeping
their eyes peeled with the help of hidden cameras there.
All right. That does it for us. I am Zain Asher. You're watching HALA GORANI TONIGHT. See you again soon.