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HALA GORANI TONIGHT
U.S. Senate Republicans On Goodwill Mission To Moscow; Aides Urged Trump Not To Take Military Action In Venezuela; Assessing The State Of America; New Gallup Poll Shows U.S. Patriotism Dipping; Transforming Urban Transportation; Huge Celebrations In England After World Cup Win. Aired 3- 4p ET
Aired July 4, 2018 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. Live from CNN London, I'm Hala Gorani.
Tonight, we are tracking developments of a story, of a couple that become mysteriously ill in England. Were they poisoned? We'll have the very
Also, brand-new video today from inside the cave where that Thai football team is still trapped. We'll show you that.
And the U.S. Senate panel concludes Russia was, indeed, trying to meddle in the 2016 election. We're live in Washington. We begin with a developing
story right here in Britain. Counterterrorism officials are involved. They are helping police investigate what is being called a major incident.
They're trying to figure out why a man and a woman in Amesbury fell critically ill after being exposed to an unknown substance. That town is
just 13 kilometers from Salisbury where a former Russian spy and his daughter were found poisoned four months ago.
So, the question is, what happened to this couple? Was it some sort of illness? Was it poisoning, we don't know. We're still hoping to hear from
Erin McLaughlin has the very latest from Amesbury. Do we know who these people are, first off, Erin?
ERIN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: British authorities, Hala, have been very tight lipped with the details of what happened here. They have not
publicly named this couple. However, British media is reporting that the couple is 45-year-old Charlie Rowley as well as 44-year-old Dawn Sterges.
Meanwhile, this is a community fragile and on edge. There's more questions than answers at this point. Some residents tell me they want to know
exactly what happened and if there's any connection to the Salisbury nerve agent attack.
MCLAUGHLIN (voice-over): Once again in rural England a mystery, Wednesday police declared a major incident in the tiny village of Amesbury. A
couple, a man and woman in their 40s identified by a friend as Charlie Rowley and Dawn Sterges became seriously sick.
Hospitalized following what authorities say is potential exposure to an unknown substance. A local resident, Sam Hovson (ph) says he was with the
couple that Saturday. He said Sterges fell ill first.
SAM HOBSON, FRIEND OF COUPLE WHO FELL ILL: I came around to chill at his house in the morning and there were ambulances outside, and his girlfriend
was getting taken away. He said she was complaining of a headache in the morning and she was in the bathroom having a fit, foam coming out of her
MCLAUGHLIN: After Sterges went to the hospital, Hobson says spent the afternoon with Rowley, until the 45-year-old started to show similar
HOBSON: He was sweating and dribbling, and you couldn't speak to him, he was making funny noises. He was rocking back and forth and there was no
response to me. He didn't know I was even there. It's like he was in another world.
MCLAUGHLIN: Initially, authorities say they suspected drugs, heroin or cocaine. Now they say they just don't know. More tests are being done.
Many in this quiet village are looking six miles away to Salisbury for answers where the couple reportedly spent Friday night.
Where four months ago, an ex-Russian spy and his daughter were poisoned by a military grade nerve agent. The British government blames the kremlin
for that attack, which Russia denies.
So far, British authorities have not linked the two incidents. Counterterrorism police have joined the investigation and the fear is that
once again a nerve agent may be to blame. The sites Sterges and Rowley visited before they got sick now cordoned off. This community waits and
MCLAUGHLIN: Downing Street says they are taking the situation seriously. British Prime Minister Theresa May is being swept apprised of the
situation, and so far, has not convened a covert meeting here in the United Kingdom, a meeting of high-level ministers. They did to that during that
Salisbury attack some four months ago. That testing, though, still underway as authorities try and figure out what exactly went on.
GORANI: But why would anyone target -- I mean, with Skripal, you know, he was a double agent, an ex-Russian spy settled in the U.K., so, of course,
it makes sense to target him. It makes some sort of sense, but why what sounds like a random British couple here?
MCLAUGHLIN: Hala, we just don't know at that point. It's a British couple. Locals here, they have friends in the area. What we do know is
that they did spend some time in Salisbury on Friday night, that morning one of them got sick and then another the following evening.
[15:05:09] So, you know, as I said, plenty of questions, not a lot of answers at this point. But there are concerns that in some way they could
have been exposed to nerve agent.
GORANI: All right. Thanks very much, Erin McLaughlin in Amesbury.
Well, once again all eyes are on Thailand and the race to free those 12 boys and their football coach from a flooded cave. Can rescuers move the
boys out before monsoon rains move in?
These are some of the newest images, by the way, of the boys. They've been trapped for 11 days now. Today, they got a crash course in diving and
crews cleared passageways in the cave. There's a lot of uncertainty ahead, but for the parents of the boys, the most agonizing part may be over.
CNN's Anna Coren has the view above and below ground. Take a look.
ANNA COREN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A day after the boys were reached, a very different atmosphere underground, warm and space
blankets, well fed with pork and sticky rice. And cared for, watched, and entertained by these crack military personnel, a doctor and a nurse.
The dolphin emblem of the Thai Navy SEAL scratched into stone. Another crest, England's three lions on a muddy football shirt. While other kids
have watched the World Cup, they have huddled in this dark cave for 11 days now. Their families watch the feed from a tent in the jungle outside.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I am dying to see him. I miss my son.
COREN: The mood lighter after over a week of no sleep and mental health support.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I am so glad he is still alive and safe. I'm speechless. I want to thank everyone who helped. Thank you
COREN: Police have waved away suggestions that the 25-year-old coach was negligent in leading the boys into the cave on a weekend day out.
Exploring was something that all the boys loved doing. Their families say they know that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I want to tell him that you did your best taking care of the boys. Please don't be worried.
COREN: While the sun shines here, pumps drain hundreds of thousands of liters per hour from the flooded cave tunnels.
NARONGSAK OSOTTANAKORN, CHIANG RAI GOVERNOR (through translator): They don't have to all come out at the same time because all of them are in
COREN: Officials say the children will come out one by one as each grows strong enough to escape. Outside the cave, soldiers link arms to create a
road through the jungle for ambulances to arrive, a practice drill but perhaps an early glimpse of a coming miracle, the rescue that seems almost
impossible just days ago. Anna Coren, CNN, Chiang Rai, Thailand.
GORANI: Well, diving their way out one by one, navigating several kilometers through murky waters and narrow passages is just one of the
options for saving the boys. Jonathan Miller joins me now live from the scene. Jonathan, are they favoring one rescue strategy over another at
JONATHAN MILLER, ASIA CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's a gripping drama, Hala, and there are three plans. Plan "A," as Anna's package explained is to try
to bring them out the way they came in, albeit now through these submerged passageways.
Plan "B," it took a possible boost there today because that is the idea of going in through the top from the jungle ridge line above and maybe finding
a fissure, a crack, a chimney as they call it to get you into the roof of the cave and bring them out that way.
One of the boys, believe it or not, says he heard a rooster crowing outside the cave somewhere. Now, it could be that he was hallucinating. You
wouldn't blame him after nine days stuck in the dark down there.
But, you know, if he did hear that it may suggest that there is a possible way out through the roof of the cave. Plan "C" is the unpalatable one
albeit less dangerous which is to keep them in situ where they're currently stuck, maybe raise them up on a little platform, safer from the
But once this monsoon torrential rain starts coming down and surge surges into that cavern system, there won't be any hope of bringing them out
through the passages themselves.
GORANI: But going through the top would mean drilling dozens of meters into hard rock -- mountainous hard rock. I mean, there has to be risks
associated with that.
[15:10:03] MILLER: I mean, it would have costly risk. There's risks in every element of this, big risks. The governor here today in Chiang Rai
said we want to make sure that we have no risk. But there's always going to be risk.
In fact, if they bring them out through the passageways, it will involve at least half a mile of cave diving and that is often through strong currents
and through zero visibility. And these are kids who have never scuba divide before so you have to teach them those tricks too.
As to going through the roof, well, you know, it has been done before if you remember back to the Chile miners and how they escaped from the
collapsed copper mine eight years ago. They drilled through very, very solid rock to reach them a mild down.
This rock is softer. It's limestone. So, if they can find a fissure to follow, maybe there's a chance in that, although you haven't heard much
about that yet so far.
GORANI: Jonathan Miller, thanks very much, reporting live from the scene. The boys are said to be in relatively good physical health, but of course,
their state of mind is, you know, of some concern.
Let's get some insight. I want to bring in forensic psychiatrist, Carol Lieberman, from Los Angeles. So, talk to us about what -- I mean, people
go through, these are kids, the youngest is 11, they've spent -- initially spent nine days in pitch black, not knowing if they would ever be rescued.
Now they're being told they might have to swim through murky waters, some of them can't swim. They're told perhaps they'd have to spend four months
there. What does that do to someone's -- you know, to someone's mind?
DR. CAROL LIEBERMAN, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: Well, you know, when they were rescued, first of all, we have to give them credit for being incredibly
strong psychologically up to this point, and of course, that was helped by being a team that has faced challenges together, you know, with a coach.
That was a big help.
But they are at really great risk. Being in a cave with darkness all the time, obviously they each have some degree of PTSD. They're feeling some
shame for having gotten into this mess. They're feeling some guilt, fear of course, and -- but when they saw the British -- the two British divers,
they were very happy.
And the problem is that in their mind after what they've gone through, to them it seemed like oh, great, now we're saved, we're going to be able to
get out of here. But there's, of course, a lot more complexity to it.
And the idea of -- maybe that was a hallucination, it could well have been, the rooster that the reporter was talking about. It would be nice if it
wasn't, but, yes, they could have things like hallucinations as well.
And the idea of taking them out and teaching them to swim and to scuba dive in these incredibly difficult waters is dangerous. I worked -- I'm a
psychiatrist, but I worked for a period of time as a scuba diving doctor and I learned scuba diving.
And the most dangerous thing when you're learning to scuba dive or actually scuba diving is anxiety, fear, panic. And so, if they panic in that,
because they're disoriented, because of the darkness of the water, or because sometimes people take off their mask if they have trouble breathing
or they use up their oxygen because of breathing too quickly.
Now, of course, there are going to be divers with them who will help, but that's -- and then there's also the danger if things start not going well,
that there's going to be -- there could be a situation like lord of the flies where people start -- the kids start blaming each other for being in
If they start feeling hopeless. So, the bottom line is that there needs to be a lot of psychological help in there, not just the food and the blankets
and the water and all that. But a lot of attention to how they are psychologically.
GORANI: Absolutely. You mentioned scuba diving and don't panic. I was scuba diving once in Egypt and I panicked, and I rose up too quickly and
burst my eardrum. And this is -- I'm an adult and there was no danger around me kind see.
So, I can imagine a small child like that. There are ten rescuers with the boys inside the cave, so they're keeping them company, they're trying to
make them feel, you know, OK about being down there. What impact does that have? What difference does that make?
LIEBERMAN: That's very important. And it will be even better when they are able to establish more communication with their families, you know, on
the outside. That will give them -- boost their spirits and so on and give them more of a will to hold on. It's important that the kids express their
feelings about all this.
You know, there's a tendency to want to act macho and, like OK, you know, we came through this far, I'm tough, I can do whatever. We were supposed
to do in the water, fine, I'll go in the water.
People shouldn't take that as face value and instead they should let the kids express their fears, their feelings of hopelessness or sadness,
whatever the feelings are at that moment.
[15:15:04] And of course, it's going to change from moment to moment. But they need to keep the kids well informed and -- and just always be paying
attention to their psychological health.
GORANI: Let me ask you this. What would psychologically speaking be less damaging to them? Would it be keeping them there for perhaps up to three
or four months, you know, supervised, with rescuers, with help, with entertainment, whatever it might be, or getting them out by teaching them
how to scuba dive? What would be less damaging here? Because that's really what the -- what authorities are weighing here.
LIEBERMAN: Well, it's a very hard thing to determine because, yes, of course in some ways the sooner they get out the better. But on the other
hand, if they can't really make it, you know, if it's too much in their -- in their state, these aren't like vacationers, you know, learning scuba
diving for a week, they're in a very traumatized state.
I think the risk of any of them panicking, taking off their mask, taking too much oxygen, going to the top too quickly, that's a real risk. And in
some ways keeping them there longer if they give them enough their partnership might be the safe -- therapy might be the safer way to good.
GORANI: Carol Lieberman, thanks so much for joining us and for your expertise on this story. We appreciate it.
Still to come tonight, protesters in Poland. They say want to protect their Supreme Court from a power grab by politicians. Is the rule of law
at risk in Warsaw?
And WhatsApp is under pressure to fight hoax messages in India following false accusations and mob violence. We'll be right back.
GORANI: There is growing outrage in Poland over a law that critics say is intended to give the government control of the judiciary. It mandates that
all Supreme Court judges over the age of 65 must retire and will force 27 of the 72 judges off the bench.
But, the head of the Supreme Court is standing her ground -- and this is how she was greeted when she showed up for work just hours after the law
went into effect. Atika Shubert has more -- Atika.
ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This has been simmering for quite some time in Poland, Hala, and we actually had a chance
to go earlier this year to try to find out what was motivating all this change. What's incredible is a lot of it comes from the vision of one man,
SHUBERT (voice-over): An evening mass at Warsaw Cathedral in February of this year attended by the most powerful man in Poland. Jaroslaw Kaczynski
barely visible behind his bodyguards is dubbed the king of Poland for his undisputed control of the ruling Law and Justice Party.
[15:20:12] This is Kaczynski's vision for Poland, fiercely patriotic, deeply Catholic, driven by revenge. But to understand Jaroslaw Kaczynski,
you must understand the influence of his identical twin, Lech Kaczynski.
MICHEL KRYZMOWSKI, KACZYNSKI BIOGRAPHER: He always repeated that Lech was a better twin, he was made for honors and I'm the bad guy.
SHUBERT: Child film stars, Jaroslav Kaczynski grew up to become prime minister and president. In the book, Kryzmowski describes Lech as popular,
Jaroslaw as driven and ambitious, a recluse with no mobile phone, never uses a computer and eats lunch alone.
He interviewed more than a hundred of his close friends and associates, but Kaczynski himself declined to be interviewed. This changed everything. In
2010, President Leck Kaczynski, his wife and 96 people in all were killed when their plane crashed in Russia.
Kaczynski immediately called the crash an assassination by Russia, an accusation the country denied. An independent investigation determined the
crash was a result of bad weather and human error.
Since this crash, Kaczynski's Law and Justice Party has a new patriotic zeal. It has since overhauled the constitutional court replacing
independent judges with handpicked favorites. State broadcasters have been fact for failing to report the party line.
His party has passed new laws threatening jail time for women seeking an abortion. It's all been worrying enough for the E.U. to issue a warning,
stop interfering with the rule of law or risk losing voter rights in the E.U.
MICHEL KAMINSKI, POLITICIAN: If you will ask me how to describe to the international public who Kaczynski is, I would say he's a kind of a Trump
without strong American institutions or he's a kind of a Putin but with a very strong institutions.
SHUBERT: In 2015, Kaczynski's party won 37 percent of the vote and consolidated power in a coalition government. But he refused to run for
top office, choosing instead to direct from behind the scenes.
He told his party Congress our goal is to rebuild, revitalize Poland's intelligencia, linked to an ethos of social service of patriotism and in
large part to the Catholic church.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All the people -- all the important people are obedient to him, prime minister, ministers, judges.
SHUBERT (on camera): Are people afraid of him?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, very. Very much.
SHUBERT (voice-over): His party deputy refutes that.
I think he's shown that he's the most able politician in Poland, he says. I'm the vice president of the party, so I can't really say anything else.
That's a joke, of course. Everyone acknowledges and respects his decision. It is impossible to undermine his authority.
After the memorial mass for this crash, Kaczynski leads the crowds to his brother's memorial. Supporters searched through the cobblestoned streets
of the old stone surrounded by scores of police blocking off the roads for them.
Despite the crowds, there was also a small, loud protest against him and the Law and Justice Party. But opposition groups have yet to pose any
threat to his grip on power. CNN asked him for an interview, but he declined.
SHUBERT: Now, we saw in the streets of Warsaw today thousands of people, and their protests all across the country. But I think it's important to
know, and this is something that we saw firsthand there, is that the Law and Justice Party does remain popular and it has consolidated its power
through a coalition government. So, it's going to be very interesting to see how this unfolds especially what the effect will be of E.U. pressure
invoking that Article 7 -- Hala.
GORANI: Atika, thanks very much for that report. And people continue to watch what's going on in Poland with what some are calling a purge of the
Supreme Court there.
It is, to be sure, dark and very twisted use of technology as we know it and use every day. Hoax messages sent out in seconds and designed to
inspire violence. It's a crisis in India. That country's been dealing with that for weeks.
Nearly a dozen people have been killed, in fact, after being falsely accused of child abductions. Now one of the world's most popular messaging
apps, WhatsApp is taking action it says. Nikhil Kumar has the details -- Nikeil.
[15:25:08] NIKHIL KUMAR, CNN NEW DELHI BUREAU CHIEF: Hala, WhatsApp has found itself at the center of a growing problem here in India, the spread
of fake news often with deadly consequences. Attention on this problem intensified after a spates of mob attacks triggered by fake messages was
shared on the Facebook service.
For the past six weeks nearly a dozen people have been killed in separate incidents after being falsely accused of child abduction based on WhatsApp
rumors. The violence is pushing the government here to find those responsible for abusing the social platform.
India's technology ministry said the law and order machinery is taking steps to apprehend the culprit. In India in fact issued a warning to
WhatsApp users. They said the spread of these was a matter of deep concern.
WhatsApp now said it's working on a new feature to help prevent hoax messages in India. The company's biggest markets with over 200 million
users. The company says it's horrified by the violence and is testing a tool that will show you when a message is forwarded rather than one
composed by the sender.
The idea is to send a signal to users to think twice before forwarding unsubstantiated rumors. The company also says it's working with local
academic experts to learn more about how these fake messages are spread. Those are going to work more closely with India law enforcement to combat
this fake news as they try to conquer this serious and deadly problem -- Hala.
GORANI: Thank you, Nikhil.
Still to come tonight, a good will mission to Moscow. Some U.S. Senate Republicans are traveling there. Even as a new report underscores Russia's
interference in the 2016 election. And then he said what? We're hearing that U.S. President Donald Trump asked his advisers about the possibility
of invading Venezuela last year. We'll have detailed just ahead.
GORANI: A delegation of American Senate Republicans is on a goodwill mission to Moscow ahead of that summit between Donald Trump and Vladimir
Putin in Helsinki. They met with the foreign minister there, Sergey Lavrov, as well as some top Russian lawmakers saying they hope that
bilateral relations will improve.
The visit comes as a bipartisan Senate committee back in Washington issued a report today formally agreeing what American intelligence agencies have
said all along that Russia interfered in the 2016 election to help Donald Trump.
Let's bring in CNN's Boris Sanchez for more. He's live at the White House. So, talk to us a little bit more about the conclusions there that were
drawn in Washington regarding potential Russian interference in the 2016 election.
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey there, Hala. Yes. A bit of a stunning development considering that up until about a week ago or so
President Trump was repeating that Russian claim that the kremlin did not interfere in the 2016 election. This is a bipartisan committee. The
Senate intelligence committee that has led by Republicans and ultimately the conclusion that they pointed to was that Russia did, in fact, meddle in
the 2016 election. And it explicitly did so to help Donald Trump win. The question now becomes during that upcoming meeting between President Trump
and Russian leader Vladimir Putin next month in Helsinki, if President Trump will bring this up. Of course, we've seen President Trump speak to
Vladimir Putin about this before. The president telling the press, previously that he brought it up to Vladimir Putin and that Putin denied
it. There have been some very prominent Republicans that have pressed President Trump to be more forceful in his confrontation against Putin and
Russia for election meddling. President Trump last week when he arrived at his property in Bedminster, New Jersey, told reporters that he did not want
anyone meddling in anybody's elections. Unclear though if this is something he will discuss with Putin. Hala.
GORANI: And what about these reports that President Trump asked about the feasibility or the possibility of invading Venezuela? What's that about?
SANCHEZ: Yes, a bit of a head scratching move there. Some senior administration officials confirming to CNN during a meeting with top
foreign policy advisers, President Trump essentially asked what the viability was of a military intervention in Venezuela. This apparently
happened during a meeting about economic sanctions against the South American country. One official says that President Trump was essentially
thinking out loud, that he was spit balling different ideas to try to resolve the economic and political crisis that has plagued Venezuela for
years. We were told that these aides vigorously argued against that idea telling President Trump that Latin American allies to the United States
would not get behind that.
Despite that, officials told us that during the U.N. General Assembly last year, President Trump approached some Latin American allies of the United
States to ask them what their thoughts were on that. We're told that those allies told the president they would not back him if the United States
decided to exercise a military option against Venezuela.
GORANI: Boris Sanchez at the White House, thanks very much.
It's July fourth today, so that means Americans are celebrating their impendence. But a new Gallup poll is showing that U.S. patriotism is down
this year. In fact, the first time in Gallup's 18-year history asking adults how proud they are to be American, fewer than a majority say they
are "extremely proud." The number now stands at 47 percent, down from 51 percent last year.
Let's talk more now about the state of America. We're joined by Republican commentator Jan Halper-Hayes, former wide world vice president Republican
Overseas. Thanks for being with us. And Brian Klaas, a fellow in comparative politics at the London School of Economics. He's also the co-
author of "How to Rig an Election." Thanks for being with us.
I'm not sure what to make of that patriotism poll. Does it tell us anything in your opinion?
BRIAN KLAAS, FELLOW IN COMPARATIVE POLITICS, LONDON SCHOOL OF ECONOMICS: I think it does, because there is a market shift in these numbers and you see
polls coming out reputedly that showed that Americans do not agree with President Trump and find him to not be a moral leader. So for example, a
recent Quinnipiac survey showed that 62 percent of people said that President Trump does not provide moral leadership. Sixty percent said he's
not shared their values. Fifty-percent said he's dishonest. These are not figures that you typically see for an American president. I think that
erosion of moral leadership in the White House is trickling down to American's patriotism.
GORANI: But his popularity rating is pretty stable around high 30s, low 40s.
JAN HALPER-HAYES, REPUBLICAN COMMENTATOR: I don't think that has anything to do with it, because then there's always that separate poll. Do you
think the country is going in the right direction? Are you benefiting economically? But I was looking at that poll, and what was interesting to
me is those over 50, it didn't change. But the 18 to 29-year-olds, and the 30 to 49 year olds, that is where it went down considerably. And when you
think about it, go back to Obama making an apology to the Middle East, there was something on --
GORANI: But what does that mean? I hear that, but I don't understand what that means. What's an apology to towards?
HALPER-HAYES: It was apologizing for "American exceptionalism." But then there was this story of someone interviewing University students. Are you
proud to be American? Are you proud of America? And it was no. And then when you have the political correctness of micro aggressions which the
university of California has come out with, that if you say where the land of opportunity --
GORANI: You're talking about what? About like political correct terminology?
GORANI: So these -- I mean, we're 18 months into the Trump presidency and these are themes that are quite familiar because they predate Trump, they
are now gaining new sort of momentum. What do you make of what Jan is saying here about comparing once again President Obama to President Trump?
[15:35:11] KLAAS: I think these are persistent myths that political correctness has something to do with this. I think that people look at
Donald Trump and they do not see a role model for their children. They do not see someone who has a moral compass. They do not see someone who the
world respects. And if you talk about an apology tour, the world does not respect America right now. There is hard data to show this. Our own
allies do not respect America right now. Our adversaries are starting to cozy up to America.
HALPER-HAYES: We weren't respected in the time of Bush or Obama.
KLAAS: That's not true. Let me finish this. There is hard data from Pew Research, this gold stand of polling of international views on other
countries. The attitudes of confidence in American leadership are down 75 percent from Obama's triumph in Germany, 70 percent in South Korea, 57
percent in this country. Similar numbers in Japan, Canada, all of America's historic allies. So this myth that the world was not respecting
America under Obama is false. It's just simply wrong. There's a huge amount of data that backs up the fact that Trump has decimated America's
image in the world. And that makes a lot of sense because people look at things like children being torn away from their parents at the border or
Trump's comments where he praises people who marches with Neo-Nazis is very fine people and they do not respect that. And I do not respect that. And
if you do, that's fair enough, but it's the problem.
HALPER-HAYES: But that's not the point I want to make, OK?
GORANI: But, Jan, can I just get to the point he's making which is essentially the allies. Because in the Middle East, I think even under
Obama there were trust issues.
GORANI: But among the allies were we're talking Canada, I mean, the next door neighbor of the United States where there are -- the perception is
that President Trump is needlessly picking fights like trade wars, pulling out of the Iran deal, issuing what some are calling threats to NATO allies.
You don't think that this is destabilizing a world order for no reason?
HALPER-HAYES: No. What I think -- what I often say is two things about Trump. He's consistently inconsistent and he's predictably unpredictable.
And people don't connect the dots. They take him literally in the moment, but they don't think about it broader. I'm not saying and I don't
necessarily disagree with what Brian is saying, but there's something bigger that I'm concerned about. And that is the fact the same thing is
blaming and blaming Trump. And the blaming culture that's going on is not dealing with the critical issues of the problem. Let's just --
GORANI: But what are the critical issues that are not being dealt with because Trump is being blamed unfairly in your view? For instance?
HALPER-HAYES: It's a blame culture that is not just blaming Trump. There's just blame culture that exists and not taking responsibility.
GORANI: Please let her finish her thought.
HALPER-HAYES: We have 2,200 children that have been separated from their parents. But, in '06 and in '13 under two different presidents, a Democrat
and a Republican, the Senate passed an immigration bill and the House said, oh, we can put something better together. We just had a vote two weeks
ago, two different bills, and the fact is that what we have is these pontificating, non-problem solving, almost children who are out for
vengeance and not working together and it's both sides. I am so --
GORANI: But this is a policy from the Trump administration the separation.
HALPER-HAYES: But it's not just the zero --
GORANI: It's not getting the immigration legislation passed.
KLAAS: So the question was about allies. And I think that this is something where it's not about the blame game. It's literally Trump doing
something that no Republican or Democrat has done before which is imposing tariffs on America's allies. Criticizing them.
HALPER-HAYES: No one's done it before?
HALPER-HAYES: It's criticizing them more -- well, OK, in modern American history, the world order has been peaceful, prosperous and beneficial to
America because NATO and the United States together have built a system that creates free trade, that creates prosperity and creates a security
alliance. Trump is attacking all of those things. It is not a coincidence that the last 75 years have been the most stable and peaceful in
international politics in world history. It is because of the things that Trump is trying to tear down. And when he attacks Canada, he attacks the
United Kingdom, he attacks our European allies and then praises Russia and China, it is a very large reversal from Republicans and Democrats, not just
GORANI: Jan, let me ask you this. You heard Brian say the president is attacking traditional allies, and that's fact.
HALPER-HAYES: He is.
GORANI: Do you support that? You support him when he does that?
HALPER-HAYES: Well, when you say support, you know, it's kind of like what's behind the question. When I understand --
GORANI: It's a simple question.
HALPER-HAYES: -- the fact that he doesn't want to be the piggy bank for other nations and --
GORANI: But you know some of these numbers are distorted, they're exaggerations, they're outright falsehoods. The dairy tariffs thing, it's
a manufactured problem. I mean, Canada has some quotas if you go over the quota then you get hit by that tariff. Very rarely do American dairy
exporters go over -- so it's like manufacturing a crisis. But why? Why with Canada?
[15:40:02] HALPER-HAYES: But it's when you end up going with just an example about the dairy, as a --
GORANI: That's what the president did over and over again. I'm not going with that.
HALPER-HAYES: Well, and I don't you, when one just focuses on that instead of looking at the bigger issue of what is he trying to accomplish? Because
the media also didn't report when he was done with the G7 is he said, why don't we just get rid of all tariffs so that we really can have free trade?
And, yes, he is a disrupter and things need to be disrupted because not everything is working.
GORANI: Brian, there are even critics of Donald Trump who say that in the Obama years, for instance, his leadership abroad had a left a lot to be
desired, whether it was with Syria, whether it was by being too passive with North Korea, et cetera, et cetera. So, is Donald Trump in the end --
what part of what he does do you think could be needed in terms of how is he a disrupter?
KLAAS: OK. So I agree -- the one thing that I really agree with Trump on in foreign policy is that European and NATO allies should pay two percent
of their GDP towards military spending. The way he's going about that is extremely counterproductive. But I think that you have a bigger picture at
stake here, which is basically twofold. One is the world order is being attacked by the U.S. president. This is a major problem. He's talking
about potentially dragging the U.S. out of the WTO, which could disrupt world trade. He's going into a NATO summit with extremely tense relations
where the transatlantic alliance might go kaput. And you have a very difficult security dynamic as a result of that. And there's also a moral
question. At what point do you stop accepting or supporting, I don't think he's asking if you support something is a difficult question. A president
for all the other things he does? I think at the point where he said that people who march with Neo-Nazis are very fine people, he's called people
like hell of scum, enemy of the people, a stain on America. I can't sit here and defend somebody who does that. Now, there are a lot of
politicians who are not great people, they're not the most amazing people on earth. But they don't do those things. And John Kasich and the
Republican Party to Barack Obama had decency and I will not stand here and defend somebody who I find fundamentally indecent and immoral.
GORANI: Jan, last word to you. I want to get your reaction, by the way, on the enemy of the people line. He describes the press, the free press
very often in that way, and sometimes even in foreign countries. People have been shocked by that.
HALPER-HAYES: I just want to respond to Brian because I understand all that emotional outrage. And the thing is that I'm not saying that I
support his behavior, but I focus on what he does.
KLAAS: But you support him?
HALPER-HAYES: Of course, I support what he's doing. I absolutely do because things have improved in the United States. And when we get into
this moral superiority, you're losing focus on the critical issues that are going on.
GORANI: Quick -- I'm sorry. Quick last one on the attacks against the free press. You don't think that's dangerous? I mean in other countries
I've seen it. In America, I didn't think I'd hear that from a president.
HALPER-HAYES: Well, let me ask you, do you think that when there has been things taken out of context, when things have been made into sensationalism
that you don't deserve the criticism?
GORANI: This is opening a whole --
KLASS: The only other people --
GORANI: But I'm surprised by your answer, I have to say.
KLAAS: Other people in world history have called the press the enemy of the people are people like Mao, Stalin and Hugo Chavez and the president
GORANI: That terminology can be extremely worrying. But in any case.
Jan Halper-Hayes, thank you so much for joining us. Brian Klaas, thanks to both of you. Appreciate it. Happy July fourth.
Still to come, move over bikes, goodbye hover boards, as Samuel Burke is scooting in to explain and even I had a little ride outside as well. We'll
be right back.
[15:45:53] GORANI: Well, ride-hailing apps and rental bikes have been changing the way we get around major cities for years now. But could there
be a new kid on the block? Samuel Burke is here to tell us more about the e-scooter.
SAMUEL BURKE, CNN BUSINESS AND TECHNOLOGY NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Scooters have been around for decades really, but what Silicon Valley has done is
actually make these electric, plus take a page out of Uber's book and make them ride-sharing. So I've been scooting across Europe from London on into
BURKE: The scooter invasion. The scooter apocalypse, scootermageddon. Electric scooters rented via apps are flooding city streets.
ARTHUR-LOUIS JACQUIER, DIRECTOR, LIME FRANCE: Let's say we want to get this one for you. You just have to scan the QR code up this here.
BURKE: QR code right there?
BURKE: This American startup has e-scooters in nearly 30 U.S. cities, and just dropped hundreds on the streets here in Paris.
JACQUIER: And then you give a first push. And then you're good to go.
BURKE: The scooters top out at 15 miles per hour. They cost $1 to rent, 15 cents per minute to ride, and use the same lithium-ion batteries your
phones and tablets do.
JACQUIER: We raise $135 million.
BURKE: $135 million.
JACQUIER: Yes. In like a year and a half. That's pretty good.
BURKE: That's a lot of capital being injected into the market.
BURKE: The cash is crucial because line is waging a bitter block by block battle for scooter supremacy. Its main adversary, Santa Monica based Bird.
TRAVIS VANDERZANDEN, CEO, BIRD: I have transportation in my blood, I guess people would say. My mother was a bus driver for 30 years.
BURKE: Founder Travis VanderZanden just launched Bird in September. Now, it already has scooters in 22 U.S. Cities and has valued at an eye-popping
VANDERZANDEN: So really the goal of Bird is to reduce car traffic and trips. You know, people have been trying to find ways to yet Americans out
of cars for a longtime and we think Bird can have a big impact.
BURKE: The startups lead them on streets often without city approval and the apps allow you to discard the scooters pretty much anywhere. Residents
say they litter sidewalks and pose a danger to pedestrians.
VANDERZANDEN: Cities haven't really -- they didn't really kind of see and it would have been hard to see this wave of electric scooters coming, and
so there's not a lot of laws around the electric scooters yet. So we're working with them. We're actually supportive of regulation.
BURKE: Just days after Lime launched in Paris where it did get approval from the mayor's office, the city is buzzing with scooters.
But it's definitely a buzz riding these. It's really cool to be whizzing past the pedestrians and being able to see above everybody else. But with
that speed, you can also feel the risk, especially when you're in the streets and you feel a bus go past you, you can really feel your mortality.
The most important advice I have for getting on an e-scooter, sorry, is knowing when to jump off an e-scooter.
BURKE: So we're really talking about two different pieces of technology here. You have the electric scooter, the electric part is new. But I've
actually purchased one, so we've been riding it around London. I even convinced you to get on one and go about Carnegie Street. And on their own
they're kind of heavy. I tried bringing it --
GORANI: There I am. I look like the flying nun. This is just --
BURKE: So you picked it up, it's kind of heavy. You wouldn't want to bring it on the tube. I tried bringing it along the tube, taking it up the
stairs in my flat. And it really doesn't work that way. So it's the other technology using it as ride sharing with the app, that's what really makes
this work. And you start to see oh, that's why they're getting these eye- popping valuations. They're making money this way.
GORANI: But there's a dark side to this, because you have -- you'll have - - because if these are ride-sharing e-scooters, then people just discard them, there are piles of them.
[15:50:01] BURKE: Right. In Paris, it was pretty organized because in Paris they already have these sharing bikes, for example. So it was fairly
organized, I would say. In California, you've seen people rip the guts out of these e-scooters because they want to either sell the parts or they're
so frustrated by the sheer amount of them along the sidewalks. And actually in San Francisco, they've banned them temporarily. The capital of
tech, they've banned them as they try to get their heads around it. One thing that's interesting line, the one in Paris you have to take a picture
of it when you've finished using it and that way they can see that you've put it back in a nice orderly fashion.
GORANI: But In Paris, it's working well then? You don't find them thrown all over the place?
BURKE: Not at all. I was shocked. I thought the stereotype we have of the Parisian attitude, it's going to be, oh, this technology. But really
no problem at all, I think because they already have so many other forms in the bike lanes. I don't know how the brakes are going to react once we get
GORANI: On scooters as well. Samuel Burke, thanks very much. I'll be a fan, I know that. I really actually enjoyed it. Check out our Facebook
page, facebook.com/halagoranicnn. And check me out on Twitter, @HalaGorani.
More to come including this. Do you think England fans were happy with that incredible penalty shootout win? II don't know. We'll have all the
drama from the World Cup.
GORANI: If you were on the streets of London last night or anywhere else in England for that matter, you would have witnessed a surreal scene. Car
horns blaring, friends and strangers hugging. In short, unbridled joy, and the reason was this.
GORANI: I like the slow mo. Wow. Adding to the drama. England through to the World Cup quarter finals after a nail-biting penalty shootout. Now,
you may have seen some of the excitement on last night's show as Colombia equalized the normal time. Some of our producers got to a pub pretty
quickly. Some of my producers got to a pub pretty quickly. Ad they captured the fan reaction to that penalty. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: I'm just being told by my senior producer Laura that she got knocked down and Nile McDonald, who filmed this was the one who kept his
composure in this sea of insanity. It is one thing to have to watch all of that in a pub, but imagine being a fan and having to do it live on
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don, everyone's on pins and needles, one last shootout kick right now from England. And that's it.
DON RIDDELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Oh.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Congratulations, Don.
RIDDELL: Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness.
(END VIDEO CLIP) GORANI: Well, our own Don Riddell has, I think, recovered, I don't know, recovered from the madness. He joins me now live.
So, Don, it's crazy. That was really, really exciting.
RIDDELL: Yes, it was. That's certainly a moment I'll never forget in my broadcast career, Hala. I wasn't expecting them to come to me at that
moment and I was thinking really, we got to talk about this now? But from an England perspective, thank goodness Eric Dier put that penalty away.
And as I've been saying, you know, our coverage all around that moment. England fans have been through the agony of these penalty shootouts in
major tournaments so many times before. They've gone out of three World Cups on penalties. They've gone on the three European championships on
penalties. And what was so refreshingly different about this occasion was that this young team seemed to have so much more confidence, so much more
belief. All of the penalties they took were very, very good. And they're now into the quarterfinals of a tournament that they really didn't think
they had much hope of winning at the start from the fan's perspective. But now as you can see from all of this reaction people are really starting to
believe the 2018 might be different.
[15:55:48] GORANI: Trust me, I was in London last night. You guys are not starting to believe. I think the belief is really setting in there and I
think some people are already imaging the best case scenario. But, they'll have to get through a few very good teams in order to, you know, hope to
kind of bring this -- bring it back home. And by the way, it's called -- people were singing in the streets it's coming home. So, what's the
history of that one?
RIDDELL: Yes. Tell us about that.
RIDDELL: Every England fan knows the words. Football's coming home. It's coming home. And that was the unofficial song of the tournament, European
championships in 1996 and the words of that song really summed up what even at that point was already a frustrating experience for England fans.
Lyrics like they're going throw it away, they're going to blow it away. And that was in 1996. And the story was repeated year after year between
then and now. So everybody knows the words, everybody sings it. The interest in this song has spiked, according to Spotify, that song was
streamed 450,000 times yesterday. The phrase it's coming home was tweeted 127,000 times around the moment of that Dier penalty. And that narrative
arc seems to be coming full circle. In Euro '96, the tournament for which that song was written, Gareth Southgate was the player who missed the
crucial penalty for England saw them knocked out of that tournament. It was one of the worst moments of his career. He ended up starring in a
Pizza Hut commercial with two other England players who had missed penalties in the Italia '90 tournament. There he is, under the bag. And
now he's the manager who has helped lift the curse and coached the players to finally get a win.
GORANI: I'm glad -- I'm glad that he was able to do that. But, France/Uruguay tomorrow -- Friday, I should say. We'll see what happens.
Thanks very much, Don Riddell. Stay with CNN. I'm Hala Gorani. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next. I'll see you tomorrow.