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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield
Teen Babysitters Taunt Baby With Taser; Woman Beaten Shot In Face By Intruder. Aired 6-8p ET
Aired July 11, 2018 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[18:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shocking video. Three teenage girls taunt a year old baby. It shows a teenager pretending to poke the toddler with a
taser. The child can be seen screaming, arms stretched out looking for help. Did they shoot these disturbing videos, and what price might they
have to pay?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I kept thinking, I don`t want to die this way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When a man broke in through an unlocked back door that morning, waking her up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I see this naked man came rushing over to me and said, I`m gonna rape you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A former doctor convicted of killing his wife in their mansion could get a second chance at freedom, because of a juror`s texting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RITA COSBY, GUEST HOST, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE: Good evening, everybody. I am Rita Cosby in for Ashleigh Banfield, and this is "Crime and Justice."
We begin tonight in Central Arkansas where three teen girls are in big trouble for some gut-wrenching videos they supposedly took while
babysitting. The girls seemed to think it was funny, but these videos landed all of them in juvi, because they`re seen on camera taunting a 1-
year-old baby with what appears to be a taser.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(BABY CRYING)
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Well, that is heartbreaking to see. And if that is not bad enough, the girls keep rolling and laughing as one of them slaps the baby on the
back of the head.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(BABY CRYING)
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Thankfully that little baby girl is OK, but her mom called the cops from the hospital and had the teenage caretakers put in handcuffs. Now
they are charged with endangering the welfare of a minor. And rightfully so. I want to bring in the panel. On the phone, we have Darren Minor, he
is a reporter for IHeartMedia Arkansas, also Elyssia Watkins, she is the mother of that 1-year-old victim. And also Stacy Honowitz, she is
prosecutor for the Los Angeles Sex Crimes and Child Abuse Unit, and defense attorney, Eric Johnson. Darren, tell us what happen. How did they find
this video? Because it`s horrible what`s happening, but then you see it on video, that is amazing.
DARREN MINOR, REPORTER, IHEARTMEDIA ARKANSAS: Monday night an officer from the Conway Police Department was dispatched to the hospital to investigate
a report of child abuse. The mother of the child, by the way the 1-year- old baby girl she had was shown the video of the child being taunted with a taser. One of the teens struck the child in the back of the head. Now the
mother had already seen the video, because somebody else had alerted her to it. And that is why she brought the child to the hospital.
So she had already seen it. So as you see, the three teens were laughing. So the officer quickly went and located the three babysitters which I have
a hard time even using that word, babysitter, but they were arrested all on the same charge which you said is endangering the welfare of a minor in the
first degree. They were taken to a (Inaudible) County Detention Center.
I got off the phone just a few minutes ago with the detention center and they are still being held there now. So, they`re in their second day of
being at the detention center. One of them had a hearing yesterday, but we don`t have a record of what came out of that.
One of the amazing parts of the story is, the mother of one of the juveniles said her daughter didn`t do anything wrong. Of course then they
showed her the video. She saw her daughter allegedly urging it on. The two who were the most involved, they blamed the third girl, the girl who
was videoing, saying it was her fault for putting it on Snapchat.
COSBY: They`re not just blaming, they`re laughing. You hear them in the background laughing. That is how sick these teens were, Darren.
MINOR: Yes. And that is the thing about it, you know, this has dominated our phones the last couple days here. People with very strong opinions, as
you might guess. A lot of mothers who say, they should be more careful about checking references of sitters. And there are others want to know
why the parents of the teens didn`t know they owned a taser. Just a sad, sad story. And it`s a nice little town. I mean, Conway, you know, is 35
miles from Little Rock, which has a lot of problems, but Conway has kind of been shielded from a lot of that, but this is the kind of thing that just
gives it a bad name.
COSBY: And I had been to Conway, Arkansas. Darren, I know it is actually a very nice little town, so heartbreaking to see this. Let me go through
the explanation. Because as we`re showing the footage, Darren, and you see the child is wincing every time it looks like a taser is coming towards
her, you`re hearing the zapping, then you see the smacking on the head, but I was seeing somewhere, Darren, that one of these teenagers actually had
the audacity to essentially say that when that smack happened, she was like greasing -- trying to grease the child`s head. I`ve never seen someone
grease a child`s head that way.
MINOR: Yes, some of the explanations that have come out of these kids, and there`s no remorse being shown from what everybody has told me. Is that
this kids -- they don`t really think they did anything wrong. They didn`t go about the video, they seem to be having a fun time with it, even taking
time to post emoji`s on the video which makes it even more horrible.
COSBY: Yes. It`s just unbelievable. I want to bring in the mom of this beautiful little baby who was clearly being abused as we are seeing in the
video here. Nobody greases a child`s hair that way. Elyssia Watkins, thanks so much for joining us. I can`t imagine, Elyssia, your reaction
when you first saw this footage.
ELYSSIA WATKINS, VICTIM`S MOTHER: I`m speechless from just looking at it. It`s sickening. They need some help. That is all I can say. I had been
knowing the moms. I`ve been knowing them for a couple of years. I had them spend the night at my house. I love children. I love teenagers, and
I just never expected them to do anything like this.
COSBY: You know, Elyssia, as you`re talking about it, you said you knew the mom. The girls, from what I understand, were 15, 15, and 17. Did you
ever suspect that something was going on, or were you just totally shocked when you saw this footage that now the world`s seeing, because we`re so
mortified to see it?
WATKINS: I was really shocked when I saw it, because of course I wouldn`t have anyone keeping my daughter that I thought would harm her or hurt her
in any kind of way, you know, they didn`t act like that when I`m around. Nice, manner able everything, but it wasn`t that way. That mom, I mean,
not the mom that said anything that she don`t feel like her child did anything wrong, but one of the two teens that she is been a really nice
person, good person, you know, from me just knowing her, but I mean, as far as her children, she showed, you know, the most remorse, but the kids,
nothing. They didn`t show anything.
My daughter, her dad went to the first court hearing. She said the one that slapped her in the head, no remorse, no anything. She just looking
straight ahead like, you know, it`s nothing. And I just feel like all of them should be tried as adults. I don`t know if a 15-year-old can be tried
as adult, but I feel like, they should. It`s like with the emoji, you know what you`re doing, I mean, you seen there putting emoji`s up, slapping her,
hitting her. You know, you shouldn`t be in society doing anything like that. When you get out, are you going to do the same thing? You`re not
even showing any remorse on what you are doing or feeling sorry. Nobody said anything to me about --
COSBY: And Elyssia, in addition to the emoji`s, they`re laughing in the background. And one of them is like, oh, I kind a -- didn`t get that, and
then they continue it again. To hear that they`re laughing. And then that story from one of them that essentially when they said, we see you
smacking, thank goodness there`s this footage to show it, but we see you smacking the child and you hear the scream of the child right afterwards.
You hear -- there it is. I want to play it a little bit, so we can hear it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(BABY CRYING)
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And then the child winces in pain, apparently so much that the child -- your baby couldn`t almost breathe. And then you hear one of the
teens actually said, I was trying to grease her hair. Elyssia, what do you think when you hear this? It`s disgusting when you hear this.
WATKINS: It really is. It`s sickening. I really don`t know what to say, because I feel like it is more videos. Because before that slap, you can
hear her say, I didn`t get it. So that means you slapped her before then. It had to be another slap. And I really think it is more videos. And they
look like they were comfortable doing it. So I honestly feel like they`ve done this before. It`s just happened that one of them decided to post it,
you know, and bring it out for everyone to see it. Because my daughter, she usually plays. She is 1. She wouldn`t just sit there on that bed like
that. So I feel like she is scared, and she normally would be up, moving around and playing. So she is really horrified.
[18:10:00] COSBY: You know, I tell you, Elyssia, when you see this, this is like every mother`s nightmare, Elyssia. It`s so heartbreaking and it is
so important that you know who your babysitters are and how scary, because you knew the mom too. This is so frightening. I want to bring in the
attorneys. I want to bring in Stacy Honowitz, prosecutor sex crime and child abuse, you have seen it, also defense attorney, Eric Johnson. Let`s
hear it, Eric. How are you going to defend these teenagers? They`re laughing in the background. They`re greasing the hair. I don`t think
anybody with their right mind would have thought that is the way you grease a child`s hair, to smack the head, and then the cry -- the wince. It`s so
heartbreaking, Eric.
ERIC JOHNSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, this is a very difficult situation to look at, because you have a child involved. A defense in this matter
would depend on which of the three girls you`re actually defending, because each one may have a different level of culpability in this matter. The
lady behind the video may not be as culpable as the two who did the particular acts.
COSBY: But she is not stopping it, Eric. She is not stopping, she is sitting there and enjoying it. You hear them laughing. You think that is
funny, Eric?
JOHNSON: Well, no, I don`t think it`s funny, however, legally speaking, merely being present at a crime does not make you guilty.
COSBY: She didn`t step in. You think a jury is going to have sympathy for some young teenage girl who is laughing and keeps on filming? That is a
real fun movie scene, you know?
JOHNSON: Well, the jury may not have sympathy, however, the facts of whether or not the conduct can be mitigated by any factor is something that
the prosecutor will take into determination as far as issuing a potential sentence in this case. So while they may all be found guilty later on, the
question is, will she be facing a possible misdemeanor or a more serious felony charges?
COSBY: Let me bring in Stacy Honowitz, because there are different ranges here, but all of them, it`s just disgusting and to sort of, oh, she did it,
she did it, we`re just having fun. They looked awfully comfortable to film it and put it up. Can you believe this, Stacy?
STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA SEX CRIMES PROSECUTOR: I mean, there`s nothing to really say in this case. There`s nothing other than, thankfully, I hate to
say it, that it was posted, so the mother could see what went on. So it is kind of a double (inaudible).
COSBY: Thankfully they were dumb enough that they put it up there, but it shows how comfortable they were also, Stacy, to do that.
HONOWITZ: Exactly. Well, absolutely. I mean, you talk about no remorse. How could somebody do the acts that they did, film it, and then post it? I
don`t know what they thought the world was going to say, that they were going to get a lot of likes on it. But the fact that the matter is, there
are different ranges, but the person filming is just as called the bully as anybody else. They are the principal in a crime as they were filming,
sounds like, encouraging it, allowing it to go on, and laughing. Until a prosecutor looking at this, is never going to say, the person that filmed
this horrific act is going to be less culpable.
I think the mother is a hundred percent right when she says that probably it had gone on before. If you`re asking the person to redo the horrible
act, evidently it didn`t go the way they wanted to post it before. So I think the mom is probably very smart in assuming unfortunately that this
was not the first time it happened. I hope the prosecutors take a good look at this and I hope the prosecutors believe it`s heinous enough that
they do file adult charges against them.
COSBY: Yes, it`s terrible. Let me real quick go to the mom, Elyssia Watkins, how are you doing? I understand you haven`t been back to work.
It has just been so upsetting and also how is your beautiful little baby doing?
WATKINS: She is doing good, physically. But mentally she is been more aggressive. And I couldn`t tell at first, but I been paying more
attention, you know, she is being more aggressive lately. It`s like if you get near, you know, she is gonna hit you, because she feel like she is
defending herself. And it`s so much I`ve been looking at that makes me feel like, this has been going on. Like, this is not the first time and I
just feel bad, because I`m supposed to protect her and I didn`t know before now that it had been going on.
COSBY: Well, you know what, Elyssia, you cannot feel bad. Thank goodness these girls did post it, and it`s a good wake-up call to everybody watching
out there. All the moms, to know your babysitter, and even if you do know them, make sure they`re actually taking care of your child. Elyssia, thank
you, we pray for you and also for your child as well.
And coming up, everybody, the thought of a home invasion and assault is terrifying enough, but the home invasion and assault of a senior citizen, a
woman 80 years old, there aren`t words enough to describe the horror of what she endured and what she survived. She joins us next here on the
show.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And this is Rita Crosby in for Ashleigh Banfield. A despicable story out of Las Vegas tonight, where an 80-year-old woman was reportedly
attacked in her own home where she`d been living for 20 years. She was attacked by a sex offender wearing nothing, but a baseball cap.
Miraculously, the victim survived, but she was left with serious injuries after she says the man entered her home, threatened to rape her, and nearly
took her life.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[18:20:03] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I see this naked man looking through some dishes. And I said, what are you doing here? And he came rushing
over to me and said, I`m gonna rape you. And he whacked -- hit me a few times like that, back and forth, really hard. That is why I have all this
black and blue on my face. And I asked him, where do you live, and he said, I live here now. I headed towards the front door and he tackled me,
get back on the couch.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: It is so horrifying to hear and at that moment, that is when Shevaun reportedly remembered that she had a gun hidden under her couch,
but when she tried to get it out, she says the man took it from her, turned it on her, and then shot her in the forehead before he walked out of the
door with her jewelry. Shevaun called 911 and was taken to the hospital, and she is still recovering tonight, but police tracked down her brutal
attacker. 53-year-old Herbert Rogers. There he is. He has now been charged with attempted murder, sexual assault, battery, kidnapping,
burglary, and robbery, all with a deadly weapon. And Shevaun is allegedly already talking about testifying against him in court.
And joining me now here on the phone to talk about all of this is investigative journalist, Aaron Rosen, we also have with us the victim of
that attack, Shevaun and her neighbor Derek Stonebarger and also defense attorney, Eric Johnson is still with us. Aaron, really quick, walk us
through what we know, what happened.
AARON ROSEN, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Well, what we know right now, Rita, is the fact that this man approached this woman`s house and what`s unclear
according to police, is whether her home was actually targeted or if this was a situation involving the alleged suspect and mental illness, or if he
was under the influence of something, but he approached her house, he wasn`t clothed. As Shevaun had mentioned, he entered her home and attacked
her and now faces six felony charges as a result of this in-home invasion burglary and attack.
COSBY: And by the way, Aaron, this guy, I hate to even call him a guy, because he is clearly a monster, this is a guy who is a registered sex
offender, which means that he clearly had done a number of things before. And I even want to point out, let me put up this screen just to show you a
little bit about this guy`s history. He walked in naked, basically, with just a baseball cap, into her house. He is a level two registered sex
offender. You can see a number of things there, arrest for violation of condition, of sexual offender lifetime supervision. Meaning he wasn`t even
abiding by the registry. Failure to appear on the regulations. There`s a domestic violence also against him. And also before that, battery,
lewdness, larceny, burglary, home invasion, like what happened here. And guess what got him on the registry. In 2002, conviction of lewdness with a
child is what got him on the sex registry. Why this guy, Aaron, was ever walking out, aren`t there a lot of serious questions now? Why was this guy
even walking free?
ROSEN: Exactly, Rita. And not only that, but as will be evidenced by talking with this neighbor in a few minutes, you`ll see that the adjacent
park to Shevaun`s home is a cesspool, a breeding ground for this type of criminal activity. So I really think that what we need to do is we need to
understand that this is something that has to be addressed as far as the criminal component within our neighborhood. This is a quiet neighborhood,
Rita.
COSBY: Yes, this is just horrible when you hear that this man, and it makes you wonder, how many others that have this kind of lengthy track
record are out there terrorizing people like Shevaun. And I want to bring in Shevaun, who is the victim and I say incredible survivor next to you.
And I think what is so beautiful, you have Derek Starnbarger, and Derek, you`re a neighbor, I know you`ve been helping her. How beautiful that you
too are together and you`re supporting her. I love that you`ve been helping her through all of this.
Shevaun, as you go through this and tell the story with us, because it`s just so amazing. I think you are so courageous, and you`re 80 years old.
I don`t know if a teenager would have been able to just fight this guy off and be able to have the wherewithal to call 911 and everything you did. So
I applaud you. I know everybody watching here applauds you and praying you`re going to totally heal through this. Shevaun, tell us what happened.
You go downstairs and it`s in the morning time, it`s your home, you`ve been living there, and you hear some noises, right?
SHEVAUN, VICTIM: No, I don`t have a second floor in my home. I was already on the ground floor, and I was sleeping on the couch, and I heard
some noise and looked up and saw him in my house.
COSBY: And then you hear some dishes right? Dishes were rattling. The guy, you see him suddenly, right?
SHEVAUN: Yes, he was rummaging around through everything while I was still asleep. Then when I heard that noise, it woke me up.
COSBY: And what did he look like? What did he say to you, Shevaun? Because it`s everybody`s nightmare that someone shows up in their home,
just with a noise. You pray it`s just a noise, animal, or just the wind or whatever and it turns out to be sort of your worst nightmare.
SHEVAUN: Well, it was 8:00 Sunday morning and I said, what are you doing? And he comes over to me and said, I`m going to rape you.
COSBY: Oh, my goodness. What was going on in your mind?
SHEVAUN: he is dumping boxes I just kept thinking that I would get away. So when he went into another room, I headed for the front door and he came
right out and tackled me, made me get back on the couch, and attempted rape, et cetera, et cetera. Then I had this little .25.
COSBY: Yes, tell us about this. Because you suddenly realize you have something under the couch, right? You have this old weapon under the
couch. And what does he say? He grabs it from you and then tell us what happened at that moment, Shevaun.
SHEVAUN: No, he came back in the room and I had it next to me on the couch, and he just reached for it. He didn`t wrestle me. (Inaudible), so
he got the gun. Before that, he had a long screw driver, which he was walking around the house with. So he discarded that screw driver, traded
that off with the gun.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah, he had been saying the whole time, you know, he had said several times --
SHEVAUN: I`m going to have to kill you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he was doing that with the screw driver, until he got the gun, which is just ironic. That, I mean, of course she was shot
(inaudible).
Ironic that maybe the gun simply saved her life. Because if he was to do things with that screw driver, she most likely wouldn`t be here today.
Horrible, horrible.
COSBY: It`s unbelievable, because Derek and Shevaun, he turns around, I understand, on the way out, and as you just said, Derek, he actually shot
you, Shevaun. It`s amazing you survived. What was going through your mind at that moment? It`s unbelievable to hear this story.
SHEVAUN: He had carried several boxes, and I thought he was leaving. All of a sudden he turned around with the gun, pointed it right at my forehead,
I guess I must have moved my head slightly because he shot and it went up in the skin between both eyes, in here, out here.
COSBY: Well, we are so thankful you survived. It`s a miracle, my dear. And Derek, god bless you for helping her. I want to bring in Eric Johnson,
defense attorney. Eric, let`s hear your defense of this monster who shot this courageous woman. She miraculously survived after the story that we
just heard. She was able to call 911. The bullet hit her, as you can see all the bruises and you can see from the smacking and everything else she
endured, survived, calls 911. It wasn`t like the guy turned himself in. There was a tattoo apparently. She was able to look and see a tattoo on
his arm that I.D.`d something, and that helped the cops find the guy. He is a registered sex offender, Eric! He shouldn`t have ever been on the
streets.
JOHNSON: Well, we can`t necessarily say he shouldn`t have been on the streets.
COSBY: Oh wait a minute. Yes, we can, Eric. What are you talking about? Do you want me to go through his rap sheet again? You tell me. You would
defend this slime ball? You have more honor than that, Eric. You have more honor on that.
JOHNSON: That is true. However, we do live in America, and everyone is entitled to a defense. That doesn`t mean he is going to be found not
guilty.
COSBY: Yes, thank goodness this woman was alive. Why was he walking the streets, Eric? That is what I`m asking you. This guy had a conviction of
lewdness, first of all, an attempt with a child, Eric. And then he fails to show up for supervision. He wasn`t even good on the registry. He got a
lucky break, clearly, to be on the registry, and then guess what, he wasn`t even following up with his supervisor. So there were all these things, and
you`re telling me this guy should have been walking free to go in and break in to her neighborhood or somebody else`s house. Shame on you, Eric.
Shame on you.
JOHNSON: The question now we have to look at here, we know he had a conviction that record to someone incomplete in the fact that --
COSBY: We knew he had multiple convictions, Eric. Don`t make it sound like he has some little thing in his past. You wouldn`t want that in your home.
JOHNSON: No, but the issue is, he was convicted in 2002, we don`t know if he served any time, the information that you provided. I don`t know if he
went to prison for his lewd act in 2002.
COSBY: Well, let`s hope he did. By the way, let`s hope he did.
JOHNSON: So, if he did --
COSBY: I wonder if he actually did, Eric, because it sounds like he got a slap on the wrist to terrorize this poor woman.
JOHNSON: We`re talking about something that occurred 16 years later. If he did go to prison --
COSBY: Oh, so that`s OK?
JOHNSON: No.
COSBY: Eric, don`t you go there. You think that that`s OK?
JOHNSON: I`m not no point --
COSBY: There is a rap sheet. It`s a multiple -- you know what, when we talked to the law enforcement officers, Eric, they said the sheet was too
long. I probably need a notepad to write down his offenses and that`s OK with you?
JOHNSON: No, I never said it was OK. The question here is, why was he on the street?
COSBY: Yeah. And you haven`t given me an answer, Eric.
JOHNSON: Well, obviously he served his time on the first sentence and he was out on probation possibly.
COSBY: You know what -- you know what, Eric, even if he did, he did not follow up with the registry. There were multiple offenses. The last one --
JOHNSON: And we don`t know --
COSBY: -- is an arrest for violation. Hang on, Eric, March 2018. That was not 16 years ago. Do the math.
JOHNSON: That is true. However, we do not know if that violation was because of a new offense or something merely technical as far as his
reporting violation. If it was something simply as maybe he didn`t give his address, that`s not something that he should go to jail for a long period
of time for. And in this situation --
COSBY: Well, let`s hope he goes to jail on this one, Eric, because --
JOHNSON: He will exactly will.
COSBY: -- now there is an 80-year-old -- most likely, he better, Eric.
JOHNSON: Well, the question --
COSBY: He better because it`s an 80-year-old victim who is alive, thank God, to tell about it. Shame on you, Eric. We are going to talk more right
after the break.
And everybody, coming up, a millionaire doctor accused of killing his wife has a second chance at freedom after his murder conviction was thrown out.
Now, a jury will decide again. Was it a fatal fall or a deadly attack? You decide.
[18:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And this is Rita Cosby here, in for Ashleigh Banfield. Shocking news tonight from those who follow this murder case out of a mansion in
upstate New York, where a former doctor was convicted of killing his wife. The Neulanders were going through some marriage troubles, they were talking
about separating, when prosecutors say the renowned OB-GYN slammed his wife`s head against the shower bench.
Dr. Neulander insisted that it was an accident, that Leslie had simply fallen, maybe just slipped, though there was blood all over their bedroom.
The jury ended up siding with the prosecutors. But thanks to one juror`s less than perfect texting habits during the trial, Dr. Neulander has now
been granted a second chance at freedom. The question tonight, whether or not he deserves it.
And joining with me here on the phone is Ian Wheatley. He is the assistant program director for News Radio WSYR. And also William Fitzpatrick. He is
the Onondaga County district attorney. And also medical examiner, one of our regulars, forensic pathologist and toxicologist, one of the best ones
out there, Dr. William Morrone. And Defense Attorney Eric Johnson.
Let me start with you, Ian. Take us through what happens, because it`s actually the daughter of this couple that calls 911, and that`s the first
sign of trouble, right?
IAN WHEATLEY, ASSISTANT PROGRAM DIRECTOR, NEWS RADIO WSYR (via telephone): Yeah, that`s right, Rita. This goes back to September of 2012, the death of
Leelie Neulander. Again, as you kind of pointed that out, it was their daughter who made this frantic call to 911, asking for help, and her
husband Robert had claimed that he had found his wife collapsed unconscious in the bathroom shower.
He moved her body from that bathroom to a bedroom in an effort to resuscitate her, and that`s how everything got set into motion in that
call, and it was all fairly outlined in that phone call.
COSBY: And then cops go over and there`s some questions in terms of what kind of a search they did because the guy lives in this beautiful mansion,
gorgeous house. He is a well known OB-GYN. There you can see it.
I mean, it`s this beautiful, gorgeous, luxurious place. You can see the pool and where this, quote, allegedly happened, where she allegedly slipped
and fell, is in the shower. There is like a shower bench. It`s all made of stone. Very fancy place. They knew him.
How much did that play into it, Ian? Because there`s some questions that maybe the cops, as we`re looking at the shower here and the shower bench,
that does play a big role, according to prosecutors.
[18:39:57] How much did the sort of fame of this guy and the wealth of this guy maybe cause cops not to do as good of a job as they could have?
There`s some reports of that, Ian.
WHEATLEY (via telephone): I don`t necessarily know those reports. I mean, the police and the local district attorney, I think they had a sense fairly
early on that it didn`t quite add up, that the actions by Dr. Neulander were just a bit odd. They investigated it.
It was a fairly long investigation, eventually leading to murder charges against Robert Neulander. It took about nearly two years after his wife`s
death for that investigation to eventually lead to charges. So, it seemed to be a fairly thorough investigation once it got rolling. It took a couple
months, though, for it to get rolling.
COSBY: Well, he was asked, of course, a number of things in the trial, in the first trial. I want to show a little clip from CBS`s "48 Hours," where
he was asked a little bit because there was blood everywhere, which is one of the big forensic piece of evidence in this case. Here is why he was
asked. He was asked by the prosecutor. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have any explanation as to how that blood got on the wall and the ceiling?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And let me bring in William Fitzpatrick, the prosecutor on this case. William, you know, describe the scene because I think forensics play
a key role in this case. There were blood spatters everywhere including what like a six-foot-high ceiling, right? Six feet above where everything
happened, apparently?
WILLIAM FITZPATRICK, ONONDAGA COUNTY DISTRIC ATTORNEY (via telephone): Yes, you`re exactly right, Rita. This was a forensic cornucopia and that`s
what eventually solved the case. And please don`t blame the cops because the cops were told by the local medical examiner that this injury was
consistent with a fall in the shower after about 40 minutes.
And at that point, they have no probable cause to get a search warrant. But they did a very, very thorough job with the time that was allotted to them.
And what really sealed the case -- I mean, it would take an entire show to tell your viewers all the evidence against Dr. Neulander, but what really
sealed the case was the frantic phone call to 911 from the defendant`s daughter, who while the victim is still in the shower and she is out of
sight of the defendant, her father, and her mother, the victim, she screams into the phone, "oh my god, there`s blood everywhere."
Well, obviously there should be blood nowhere except for the shower. But she was right, there was blood everywhere, because there was a violent
struggle manifested by blood spatter in the bedroom, in the hall leading to the bedroom, in the bathroom, under her pajamas where there should not be
any blood if she was actually in the shower. So it was a case that was literally solved by forensic evidence.
COSBY: Yeah, and it sounds like there was quite a bit of it, too. We`re going to get to that after the break. Everybody, stay with us. Much more on
this story. Does he deserve a new trial? We`ll talk about that after the break.
[18:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And this is Rita Cosby here, in for Ashleigh Banfield. We are still talking about the former New York doctor who has spent the last three years
behind bars, convicted of killing his wife in their mansion. Only now he`s getting a retrial and a second chance to convince a jury that she simply
fell in the shower.
Part of the reason he`s actually getting this retrial, one of the jurors did something interesting, Ian Wheatley. It`s not because of the evidence
in this case, Ian. It`s because the juror, really, I think, did cross the line in this case, don`t you think, Ian?
WHEATLEY (via telephone): Well, the way it all shook out was that this juror sent somewhere in the ballpark over the course of the trial, about
two and a half weeks trial, several thousand text messages sent in ballpark, 7,000 text messages.
Of those messages, there were messages that did include this particular juror, who did tell the judge that she received text messages about the
trial, regarding the subject matter of the trial from family and friends.
Now, the judge sort of dismissed that as being something that rose to the level of juror misconduct. That was actually what Neulander`s legal defense
team had tried to use between -- after the verdict was given by the jury and sentencing, they were trying to use that to toss it out.
Ultimately, that did lead to just late last month, the New York State supreme court overturning that conviction of Robert Neulander by a 3-2
decision, the majority saying the judge in that case was wrong to sign off on that jury`s verdict despite the admitted juror misconduct.
COSBY: Yeah. And listen, there are some questions. The jury apparently slamming, saying he`s guilty, he`s this, he`s that. You certainly don`t
want someone on a jury who already has a predisposition and is talking to other people. That`s a big no-no.
[18:49:59] Let me go to Dr. William Morrone, who is of course an expert forensic pathologist and toxicologist. Dr. Morrone, the prosecution in this
case says that they believe that she was beaten with a blunt force object. They even talked about at one point her head hitting against the shower
bench in this luxurious mansion.
One of the motives they also state is that there was a $500 life insurance policy. He`s pretty wealthy but seemed to be able to get some money out of
the deal and that they were, again, in a marital issue, they were having separation, trying out a separation. It comes down to, I think, forensics.
And can you tell the difference, Dr. Morrone, from somebody who just slipped and fell in the shower to somebody who was hit with a blunt force
object?
WILLIAM MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER AND FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Absolutely. We have three rules when people die in a shower or a bathtub. The first rule
is, it is usually a heart attack. The second rule, it has to be a stroke possibly. The third rule is, it could be an overdose.
When somebody takes that much of a beating and when you have that much blood all over the house, it`s not a slip and a fall. That person had blunt
force trauma in multiple locations throughout the bedroom and bathroom. You can tell that difference as opposed to somebody who may fall and hit their
head in a shower.
You still have the distance to fall, to make that fatal. But blunt force trauma, it takes a lot of energy to crack a skull. It takes a lot of energy
to break open skin and let arteries and veins release that much blood. That`s the different to the fall and in an assault.
COSBY: One of the other things too is apparently the ceiling which is over six feet above had blood on it too. As you point out, the blood spatter.
There is a lot of questions in this case. The defense said again, that he is innocent, and we will continue to follow this case, everybody.
In HLN`s original series, "Inside Evil with Chris Cuomo," Chris takes viewers inside the country`s most dangerous minds. This week, Chris Cuomo
seeks the answers to the age-old question, is evil due to nature or nurture?
He goes inside the story of identical twins, Robert and Stephen Spahalski, and they are the only known twins to independently become murderers, the
Spahalski brothers. Between the two of them, they killed five people. Chris traveled to upstate New York to speak with Robert about his brother and his
decisions to kill innocent victims.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Robert has no regrets about helping cover up his twin`s crime.
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN JOURNALIST: You had other siblings. Would you have done that for any of your siblings?
ROBERT SPAHALSKI, MURDERER: Absolutely. I`d go as far as your mind wants to go. That`s how I am with people.
CUOMO: You seem to come to that conclusion a little quick, though --
SPAHALSKI: I know.
CUOMO: -- with people.
SPAHALSKI: Again, if I`m your friend, I justify why you want to kill that person and I think you`re justified to do that, then I will tag along with
you and blow his head off. I`m not a boy scout. I`m not going to lie here and say otherwise.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What these two gentlemen prove is that identical twins are two halves of a whole. And in this case, it`s a lethal whole.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Stephen received a 12-year sentence for killing Ronald Ripley. Robert was sent to that same prison for breaking in
and robbing a local high school.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In 1978, when they were incarcerated at the same place, at the same time, one brother tried unsuccessfully to escape. The
other brother covered for him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My brother almost escaped from there. We just did it out of fun, that`s all.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COSBY: Very chilling. Well, "Inside Evil with Chris Cuomo," the killer twins, airs this Sunday at 8:00 p.m. Eastern time and Pacific time on HLN.
[18:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And one more thing for you tonight. A Pennsylvania detective that makes crimes and cards disappear.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you guys ever see a cop do magic? Listen, crime happens fast. Magic happens even faster. Does that look real? Touch it. It
looks real, watch.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: George Ripley of the York Police Department does magic tricks as a way to loosen up the mood on the street. A good magician is never supposed
to reveal his secrets, but he says his cards are always with him, even in the interrogation room. He began showing off his skills back in 2015 after
a bad period of gun violence in the city.
[19:00:04] Good for him.
Well, the next hour of CRIME & JUSTICE starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He just showed her the baby and just dropped him to the ground.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Outrage tonight.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And was wielding it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A man allegedly uses his year and a half old son like a baseball bat to beat his girlfriend.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How could somebody use your child as a weapon?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I kept thinking, I don`t want to die this way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When a man broke in through an unlocked back door this morning, waking her up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I see this naked man came rushing over to me and said, I`m going to rape you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A former doctor, convicted of killing his wife in their mansion could get a second chance at freedom because of a juror`s texting.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COSBY: And good evening, everybody. I`m Rita Cosby in for Ashleigh Banfield.
This is the second hour of CRIME AND JUSTICE.
Tonight, we are tracking the California lovers` quarrel that seems to have turned into a jaw-dropping assault. A man caught on his neighbor`s
security camera, violently dropping his child, just a-year-and-a-half old before picking him up and using his little body to swing at the girlfriend
that he was fighting with.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Almost like a baseball bat. It takes your breath away. And then there`s anger. He did admit and said he would probably be
going to jail for what he did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Well, thankfully that little boy is going to be OK. He was put in the care of his mother after going to the hospital with some cuts and
bruises. His dad, Teko Danny Lim (ph), spent only one night behind bars before he posted bail and he got out, but he is waiting to find out his
official charges which could include using a weapon, his own child.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SALLY CARLOS, NEIGHBOR: I mean, it brings tears to my eyes because it is like how could somebody use your child as a weapon?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Unbelievable.
Well, I want to bring in our panel to talk about all of this. On the phone is Sergeant Jayson Wood from the Riverside police department. Also with
us, Stacey Honowitz, she is a prosecutor for the sex crimes and child abuse unit in Florida`s 17th judicial circuit. And also defense attorney Eric
Johnson.
Sergeant Wood, let`s start with you. This was caught on surveillance video, right? Give us sort of the inception of how authorities found out
about this.
SGT. JAYSON WOOD, RIVERSIDE POLICE DEPARTMENT (on the phone): Well, the homeowner who captured it on surveillance video called 911, and our
officers responded out there.
COSBY: And what did you find when the officers went out there? What did you see?
WOOD: Well, they saw the video and were shocked, like most people are, and then they had the task of trying to figure out who these people were.
COSBY: How tough was it to try to track it down? It`s a neighbor who gets it. Was it easy to figure out who did it? And what did the guy say when
you finally busted him?
WOOD: No, it wasn`t very easy to find him. The officers actually did a really good job of tracking this couple down. And for the most part, he
was fairly cooperative with the officers once they located him.
COSBY: You know, it`s shocking, as I see this, and I see him just picking up the little baby. Tell us again, because you have really had a good
chance, sergeant, to look through the footage. We are seeing it, and I`m just telling you, from the naked eye, when you look at it, it`s just so
upsetting to see the way he is holding the baby. You can see it right there. And then the baby -- drops the baby, like o regard. And one point,
he is holding the baby by the legs and sort of pushing the baby against the girlfriend.
WOOD: Yes, that`s correct. It`s pretty shocking. I think anybody who sees the video can see how just -- you don`t see this every day. I`m sure
it does happen, but it`s not caught on video very often. But it is pretty disturbing.
COSBY: Did he realize what he did? And does he realize, a, not just assault, but that it could be assault with a weapon? He almost uses the
child like it`s a piece of rubber, like it`s a toy doll. I mean, it is such disregard, sergeant.
WOOD: I haven`t spoken to him. I don`t know, you know, what he realizes and doesn`t realize, but from what I have heard, he was remorseful for
doing what he did.
COSBY: As he should be, by the way. And I`m sure you agree with me with me sergeant.
Real quick, the girlfriend, what happened with her? I understand no charges with her, right?
WOOD: That is correct.
COSBY: Why not?
WOOD: Well, anything that was captured in the video and anything that was in the report, I just don`t think the officers saw anything that would lead
us to believe that she was going to end up being a suspect in this. Maybe her, you know, maybe only thing she could have done different was give us a
call.
[19:05:19] COSBY: Yes, I was going to say, I`m sure you feel that way. I think a lot of people, all of us watching it and all of you at home
watching it would say, yes, she should have called. It`s not her child, but you think about watching that poor baby getting thrown at her. First
of all, she is getting hit. But that poor baby, who is even in more danger than she is on this video, at least.
Do we know anything, also sergeant, was there a past history with this couple? Clearly, he has got a violent temper, my goodness.
WOOD: I don`t know if there`s a history or not. I think we are all saying that, you know, I would have called, if I would have been in that
situation. But it`s difficult to say, whenever a woman is being abused like this. It`s very difficult to say what you would or wouldn`t do.
COSBY: Yes. No, it is, you are right.
WOOD: Yes.
COSBY: On the other hand, that poor baby, it makes you wonder if this has happened before. And what has happened to this child.
I want to bring in Stacey Honowitz and also Eric Johnson.
Stacey, you are an expert also with the child abuse unit. When you see this footage, my jaw dropped when I saw it, Stacy. What was your reaction?
STACEY HONOWITZ, PROSECUTOR, SEX, CRIME AND CHILD ABUSE UNIT: Well, I think my reaction, even being a prosecutor is no different than the average
person who sees something like this.
Again, just like in the last story, we are grateful that there is videotape. I mean, as awful as we have to see it, at least there`s
evidence and there is proof of what went on, especially when this wasn`t reported by the other individual there. So at least we have it.
It`s appalling. There are probably going to be child abuse charges. And the child abuse statute probably reads that they use the child as a weapon.
Everything that you see, and the fact that he`s remorseful isn`t really going to play because he did it. So I`m sure the charges are going to be
there. I`m sure everybody`s appalled. And once again, we are grateful that, as prosecutors, we actually have this evidence to show a jury in case
we have to go to trial on something.
COSBY: You bet. The other thing too, Stacey, and this is what`s so heartbreaking, is after he throws the child, uses the child like to throw
at the girlfriend, which he looks, again, a little comfortable that he doing it. Seems like he has done it before.
After all of this, the little baby, it`s an 18-month-old little baby, comes running over to him. In other words, daddy, daddy, doesn`t seem to have a
connection with the girlfriend, but is still running after the dad, like in the picture there.
Stacy, this is like heartbreaking, like, daddy, let me come back to you, after all of this.
HONOWITZ: Yes, it is. But you have to remember, Rita, and I`m sure everybody realizes, that the age of this child, he is not able to decipher
that the act that took place is harmful to him. He might have felt the effects later on, but he`s not able to mentally say, my father is abusing
me. You have a four or 5-year-old child who at that point is able to discern the difference, then you probably wouldn`t see this. But in
somebody who is 18 months, who only has this relationship with this dad, doesn`t realize that the act that was upon him was really a child abuse,
harmful act.
COSBY: Yes. You`re right. Just too young to know. It is so heartbreaking.
Eric Johnson, if you are defending this guy, what do you do? I mean, I`m happy to see that he is remorseful. I`m happy to say I did it, but I don`t
think he had a choice. He is on the surveillance video.
ERIC JOHNSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think in this case, the main thing that you want to look at is some form of rehabilitation to address what
exactly is the issues --
COSBY: You think, Eric? You think he needs a little help?
JOHNSON: Definitely so. And given the fact in this child is only 18 months old, I mean, he has another 16 years of possibly being in this
child`s life. So at this particular time, I think that him getting help that he needs, and figuring out what are the issues that caused him to
react this way is going to be more important in this situation going forward.
COSBY: Do you think he should see this child again, Eric? What do you think?
JOHNSON: Well, given -- this is only a snapshot. We have no idea as far as the relationship with the child, up to this point, or this particular
incident does not mean that he is prohibited from having a beneficial relationship with the child as the child gets older.
COSBY: How is he going to be a good dad, Eric? You tell me how a guy who uses his 18-month-old baby, and was running after him, like daddy, daddy,
daddy, like the child is used to it, which is heartbreaking, Eric. What kind of a beneficial relationship do you think he could have? Do you think
that`s a good dad, Eric?
JOHNSON: Well, I think it`s a stretch to say the kid may be used to this particular thing. I think it goes more long --.
COSBY: You think it`s a stretch to say he is a good dad, Eric? Let`s hear that one.
JOHNSON: I think it may be a stretch to say that he will be unable to become a good dad throughout this child`s life merely based on this one
incident.
COSBY: Do you think the fact show he was abusing his child, his is abusing his girlfriend, who was too scared to call him in on this. It wasn`t until
a neighbor who heard the ruck us got involved in this, Eric. It`s not like he said, I did it, and the poor girlfriend, as Stacey knows all too well.
When you are covering a lot of these cases, seems like the girlfriend was afraid of him too. There`s a lot of fear in this family, Eric. That`s not
a good dad, Eric.
[19:10:14] JOHNSON: We only see a small snapshot as far as this particular situation.
COSBY: What I`m seeing isn`t good, Eric. You like what you see?
JOHNSON: Well, no. I don`t. And this particular act means that he did something that he shouldn`t have done. However, there will be millions of
people who would be locked up right now if we took one small snapshot of an incident in their life and judged them for that for the entirety of their
life.
So I`m not saying that he is a great dead right now. Under no way would I do that to my children or allow my children to be around someone who would
do that. However, I think that the possible rehabilitative nature in this situation, possibly getting him to a point where he can be back in the
child`s life and be the father of this child --
COSBY: Supervised, Eric. You left out the one key word. Supervised. You think that this guy -- they should go, OK, it was one little snapshot in
his life. I didn`t mean to drop my child. I didn`t mean to throw my child at my girlfriend. It was just a bad day, you know.
JOHNSON: Well, I think there should be a measured response by the state to make sure that, as you mentioned, supervision and other things should be in
place, whether it be counselling and classes. However, but the goal in this case should be for him to be a father for his child instead of just
saying, definitively, he cannot be.
COSBY: Stacey Honowitz, go ahead.
HONOWITZ: Well, listen. I have a whole different take and I have been doing this a long time.
COSBY: Yes, you probably have a little more level head than Eric, but go ahead.
HONOWITZ: Well, the thing is, you know, in most of these cases where child abuse is alleged and where they are prosecuted, another judge takes over
for this dependency portion to make a determination whether or not the child can be back in the person`s life. And the judges mostly say that
they have a policy that they want families to be together.
I differ a little bit because I have seen the nature of these cases. I have seen it go on and on. And my theory is that, you know, if the person
can`t be rehabilitated, it`s going to happen again. If you have a situation where this person evidently does not want to have -- why would
you do this to a child that you want to have a relationship with?
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: -- as you are talking, too? What kind of a person -- you have handled a lot of these kid of cases. What kind of a person just willfully
picks up the child -- obviously there`s a lot of anger management issues and there is a lot of psychology going into what he is doing right here,
that he has such disregard for his child, Stacey.
HONOWITZ: Well, that`s what you argue to a judge, basically. You say, judge, if this person has the ability to pick his child up and use them as
a weapon, who is to say that later on the circumstances are going to change? Obviously, he doesn`t want a relationship with this kid, because
he wouldn`t be using this kid or abusing this child. And that`s the argument that you make. That maybe the policy is to have a father in the
child`s life, but you don`t have that policy when the father can`t act like a father.
COSBY: Absolutely.
HONOWITZ: So it`s a whole -- that`s a whole other ball of wax.
COSBY: I want to show a little bit, because needless to say, the neighbors who saw the surveillance video, they were just, you know, had the video and
some of them they went back and went, oh, my goodness. Here`s a little bit of their emotions because how terrifying to know this was happening right
next door to you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRANDON HARRIS, NEIGHBOR: You see the baby get up and then still run to dad. Because they are innocent. It`s just horrible.
MIKE OGDEN, NEIGHBOR: The baby being dropped to the floor and used as a weapon. That was horrendous. My wife is still shook up over that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And let`s go back to Sergeant Jayson Wood.
Sergeant Wood, real quick, what could happen now? What kind of charges could this person face?
WOOD: Well, we sent the case over to the DA`s office for, obviously, child endangerment and then a misdemeanor battery against his girlfriend. But
ultimately, it`s going to be up to the DA to decide what charges they are going to file and continue on with the case.
COSBY: How is the child, real quick?
WOOD: He`s fine. He had some cuts and bruises and -- but, you know, no serious injuries, thank goodness.
COSBY: Thank goodness. Thank you very much.
And the thought of a home invasion and assault is terrifying enough. But the home invasion and assault of a senior citizen, there aren`t enough
words to describe the horror, but that`s exactly what an 80-year-old woman endured and survived. She joins us live next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:19:12] COSBY: And this is Rita Cosby in for Ashleigh Banfield.
A despicable story out of Las Vegas tonight, where an 80-year-old woman was reportedly attacked in her own home where she had been living for 20 years.
She was attacked by a sex offender wearing nothing but a baseball cap. Miraculously, the victim survived. But she was left with serious injuries
after she says the man entered her home, threatened to rape her, and nearly took her life.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHEVAUN, VICTIM: And I see this naked man looking through some dishes. And I said, what are you doing here? And he came rushing over to me and
said, I`m going rape you. And he whacked -- hit me a few times like that, back and forth, really hard. That`s why I have all this black and blue on
my face. And I asked him, where do you live, and he said, I live here now. I headed towards the front door and he tackled me, get back on the couch.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[19:20:11] COSBY: It is so horrifying to hear. And at that moment, that`s when Shevaun reportedly remembered that she had a gun hidden under her
couch. But when she tried to get it out, she says the man took it from her, turned it on her, and then shot her in the forehead before he walked
out of the door with her jewelry. Shevaun called 911 and was taken to the hospital, and she is still recovering tonight.
But police tracked down her brutal attacker. 53-year-old Herbert Rogers. There he is. He has now been charged with attempted murder, sexual
assault, battery, kidnapping, burglary, and robbery, all with a deadly weapon. And Shevaun is allegedly already talking about testifying against
him in court.
And joining me now here on the phone to talk about all of this is investigative journalist Aaron Rosen. We also have with us the victim of
that attack, Shevaun and her neighbor Derek Stonebarger and also defense attorney Eric Johnson is still with us.
Aaron, really quick, walk us through what we know, what happened.
AARON ROSEN, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST (on the phone): Well, what we know right now, Rita, is the fact that this man approached this woman`s house
and what`s unclear according to Las Vegas metropolitan police, is whether her home was actually targeted, or if this was a situation involving the
alleged suspect and mental illness, or if he was under the influence of something. But he approached her house, he wasn`t clothed. And as Shevaun
had mentioned, he begun entered her home and attacked her and now faces six felony charges as a result of this in-home invasion burglary and attack.
COSBY: And by the way, Aaron, this guy, I hate to even call him a guy, because he is clearly a monster. This is a guy who is a registered sex
offender, which means that he clearly had done a number of things before. And I even want to put out, let me put up this screen just to show you a
little bit about this guy`s history who walked in naked, basically, with just a baseball cap, into her house. He is a level two registered sex
offender. You can see a number of things there, arrest for violation of condition, of sexual offender lifetime supervision. Meaning he wasn`t even
abiding by the registry. Failure to appear on the regulations. There`s a domestic violence also against him. And also before that, battery,
lewdness, larceny, burglary, home invasion, like what happened here, and guess what got him on the registry in 2002. Conviction of lewdness with a
child is what got him on the sex registry.
Why this guy, Aaron, was ever walking out, aren`t there a lot of serious questions now? Why was this guy even walking free?
ROSEN: Exactly, Rita. And not only that, but as will be evidenced by talking with this neighbor in a few minutes, you will see that the adjacent
park to Shevaun`s home is a cesspool, a breeding ground for this type of criminal activity. So I really think that what we need to do is, we need
to understand that this is something that has to be addressed as far as the criminal component within our neighborhood. This is a quiet neighborhood,
Rita.
COSBY: Yes, this is just horrible when you hear that this man, and it makes you wonder, how many others that have this kind of lengthy track
record are out there terrorizing people like Shevaun.
And I want to bring in Shevaun, who is the victim and I say incredible survivor. Next to you, and I think what is so beautiful, you have Derek
Stonebarger.
And Derek, you are a neighbor. I know you have been helping her. How beautiful that you two are together and you are supporting her. I love
that you have been helping her through all of this.
Shevaun, as you go through this and you tell the story with us, because it`s just so amazing. I think you are so courageous, and you are 80-years-
old. I don`t know if a teenager would have been able to just fight this guy off and be able to have the wherewithal to call 911 and everything you
did. So I applaud you. I know everybody watching here applauds you and praying you`re going to totally heal through this.
Shevaun, tell us what happened. You go downstairs and it`s in the morning time, it`s your home, you`ve been living there, and you hear some noises,
right?
SHEVAUN: No, I don`t have a second floor in my home. I was already on the ground floor, and I was sleeping on the couch, and I heard some noise and
looked up and saw him in my house.
COSBY: And then you hear some dishes right. Dishes were rattling. The guy, you see him, right, suddenly?
SHEVAUN: Yes, he was rummaging around three everything he could while I was still asleep. And then when I heard that noise, it woke me up.
[19:25:08] COSBY: And what did he look like? What did he say to you, Shevaun? Because it`s just -- it is everybody`s nightmare that someone
shows up in their home, just with a noise. You know, you pray it`s just a noise, animal, or just the wind or whatever and it turns out to be sort of
your worst nightmare.
SHEVAUN: Well, it was 8:00 Sunday morning and I said, what are you doing? And he comes over to me and said, I`m going to rape you.
COSBY: Oh, my goodness. What was going on in your mind?
SHEVAUN: Hearing things, dumping boxes -- I just kept thinking that I would get away. So when he went into another room, I headed for the front
door and he came right out and tackled me, made me get back on the couch, and attempted rape, et cetera, et cetera. Then I had this little .25 --.
COSBY: Yes, tell us about this. Because you suddenly realize you have something under the couch, right? You have this old weapon under the
couch. And what does he say? He grabs it from you and then tell us what happened at that moment, Shevaun.
SHEVAUN: No, he came back in the room and I had it next to me on the couch, and he just reached for it. He didn`t wrestle me. (INAUDIBLE) so
he got the gun. Before that, he had a long screwdriver, which he was walking around the house with. So he discarded that screwdriver, traded
that off for the gun.
DEREK STONEBARGER, VICTIM`S NEIGHBOR: Yes, he had been saying the whole time, he had said several times --
SHEVAUN: I`m going to have to kill you.
STONEBARGER: And he was doing that with the screwdriver, until he got the gun, which is just ironic. I mean, of course she was shot (INAUDIBLE).
Ironic that maybe the gun saved her life. Because if he was to do things with that screwdriver, she most likely wouldn`t be here today. Horrible.
Horrible.
COSBY: It`s unbelievable, because Derek and Shevaun, he turns around, I understand, on the way out. And as you just said, Derek, he actually shot
you, Shevaun. It`s amazing you survived. What was going on in your mind at that moment? It`s unbelievable to hear this story.
SHEVAUN: He had carried several boxes, and I thought he was leaving. And that all of a sudden he turned around with the gun, pointed it right at my
forehead, I guess I must have moved my head slightly because he shot and it went up in the skin between both eyes, in here, out here.
COSBY: Well, we are so thankful you survived. It`s a miracle, my dear.
And Derek, God bless you for helping her.
I want to bring in Eric Johnson, defense attorney.
Eric, let`s hear your defense of this monster who shot this courageous woman. She miraculously survived after the story we just heard. She was
able to call 911. The bullet hit her, as you can see all the bruises and the smacking and everything else she endured, survived, calls 911. It
wasn`t like the guy turned himself in. There was a tattoo apparently. She was able to look and see a tattoo on his arm that ID `ed something, and
that helped the cops find the guy. He`s a registered sex offender, Eric! He shouldn`t have been on the streets.
JOHNSON: Well, we can`t necessarily say he shouldn`t have been on the streets.
COSBY: Yes, we can. What are you talking about? Do you want me to go through his rap sheet again? You would defend this slime ball? You have
more honor than that, Eric. You have more honor than that.
JOHNSON: That is true. However, we do live in America, and everyone is entitled to a defense. That doesn`t mean he is going to be found not
guilty.
COSBY: Yes. You know what? Thank goodness this woman was alive. Why was he walking the streets, Eric? That`s what I`m asking you. This guy had a
conviction of lewdness, first of all, an attempt with a child, Eric. And then he fails to show up for supervision. He wasn`t even good on the
registry. He got a lucky break, clearly, to be on the registry, and then guess what, he wasn`t even following up with his supervisor. So there were
all these things, and you are telling me this guy should have been walking free to go in and break into her neighborhood or somebody else`s house.
Shame on you, Eric. Shame on you.
JOHNSON: Well, the question that we have to look at here, we know he had a conviction -- the record is somewhat incomplete in the fact that --
COSBY: We knew he had multiple convictions, Eric. Don`t make it sound like he has some little thing in his past. You wouldn`t want that in your
home.
JOHNSON: No, but the issue is, he was convicted in 2002, and we don`t know if he served time. The information that you have provided, I don`t know if
he went to prison for his lewd act in 2002.
[19:30:04] COSBY: Well, let`s hope he did. I wonder if he actually did, Eric. Because it sounds like he got a slap on the wrist to terrorize this
poor woman.
JOHNSON: Well, if he did -- well, we`re talking about something that occurred 16 years later. If he did go to prison --
COSBY: Oh, so that`s OK?
JOHNSON: No.
COSBY: Eric, don`t you go there. You think that that`s OK?
JOHNSON: I`m not in no point --
COSBY: There is a rap sheet. It`s a multiple -- you know what, when we talked to the law enforcement officers, Eric, they said the sheet was too
long. I probably need a notepad to write down his offenses, and that`s OK with you?
JOHNSON: No, I never said it was OK. The question here is, why was he on the street? If the --
COSBY: Yes. And you haven`t given me an answer, Eric.
JOHNSON: Well, obviously, he served his time on the first sentence and he was out probation possibly.
COSBY: You know what -- no, you know what -- you know what, Eric, even if he did, he did not follow up with the registry. There were multiple
offenses.
JOHNSON: And we don`t know --
COSBY: The last one is an arrest for violation -- hang on, Eric, March 2018. That was not 16 years ago. Do the math.
JOHNSON: That is true. However, we do not know if that violation was because of a new offense or something merely technical as far as his
reporting violation. If it was something simply as maybe he didn`t give his address, that`s not something that he should go to jail for a long
period of time for. And in this situation --
COSBY: Well, let`s hope he goes to jail on this one, Eric. Because --
JOHNSON: Well, he most likely will.
COSBY: -- now there is an 80-year-old -- most likely? He better, Eric.
JOHNSON: Yes. Well, the question --
COSBY: He better because it`s an 80-year-old victim who is alive, thank God, to tell about it. Shame on you, Eric. We`re going to talk more right
after the break.
And everybody, coming up, a millionaire doctor accused of killing his wife, has a second chance at freedom, after his murder conviction was thrown out.
And now, a jury will decide again, was it a fatal fall, or a deadly attack? You decide.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:36:51] COSBY: And this is Rita Cosby here in for Ashleigh Banfield. Shocking news tonight from those who follow this murder case out of a
mansion in upstate New York, where a former doctor was convicted of killing his wife. The Neulanders were going through some marriage troubles, they
were talking about separating, when prosecutors say the renowned OB-GYN slammed his wife`s head against the shower bench. Dr. Neulander insisted
that it was an accident, that Leslie had simply fallen, maybe just slipped. Though, there was blood all over their bedroom. The jury ended up siding
with the prosecutors, but thanks to one juror`s less-than perfect texting habits during the trial, Dr. Neulander has now been granted a second chance
at freedom. The question is tonight, whether or not he deserves it.
And joining with me here on the phone is Ian Wheatley, he is the assistant program director for news radio WSYR; and also William Fitzpatrick, he is
the Onondaga County district attorney; and also, medical examiner, one of our regulars, forensic pathologist and toxicologist, one of the best ones
out there, Dr. William Morrone; and defense attorney Eric Johnson. Let me start with you, Ian. Take us through what happens. Because it`s actually
the daughter of this couple that calls 911, and that`s the first sign of trouble, right?
IAN WHEATLEY, ASSISTANT PROGRAM DIRECTOR, NEWSRADIO WSYR (via telephone): Yes, that`s right, Rita. This goes back to September of 2012, the death of
Leslie Neulander. Her again, as you kind of pointed that out, it was their daughter who made this frantic call to 911, asking for help, and her
husband Robert had claimed that he had found his wife collapsed, unconscious in the bathroom shower. He moved her body from the -- from
that bathroom to a bedroom in an effort to resuscitate her, and that`s how everything got set into motion in that call, and it was all fairly outlined
in that phone call.
COSBY: And then cops go over and there`s some questions in terms of what kind of a search they did, because the guy lives in this beautiful mansion,
gorgeous house, he`s a well-known OB-GYN. There you can see it. I mean, it`s this beautiful, gorgeous, luxurious place. You can see the pool, and
where this, quote, allegedly happened, where she allegedly slipped and fell is in the shower. There`s like a shower bench. It`s all made of stone.
Very fancy, shmancy place, they knew him. How much did that play into it, Ian? Because there`s some questions that maybe the cops, as we`re looking
at the shower here, and that shower bench that does play a big role, according to prosecutors, how much did the sort of fame of this guy and the
wealth of this guy maybe caused cops not to do as good of a job as they could have? There`s some reports of that, Ian.
WHEATLEY: I don`t necessarily know that those reports -- I mean, that the police and the local district attorney, I think they had a sense fairly
early on that it -- that it didn`t quite add up, the actions by Dr. Neulander were just a bit odd. They investigated it.
[19:40:03] It was a fairly long investigation, followed eventually leading to murder charges against Robert Neulander. It took about nearly two years
after his wife`s death for that investigation to eventually lead in charges. So, it seemed to be a fairly thorough investigation once it got
rolling. It took a couple months, though, for it to get rolling.
COSBY: Well, and he was asked, of course, a number of things in the trial, in the first trial. I want to show a little clip from CBS`s "48 Hours,"
where he was asked a little bit because there was blood everywhere, which is one of the big forensic piece of evidence in this case. Here`s what he
was asked, he was asked by the prosecutor, take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have any explanation as to how that blood got on the wall and the ceiling?
ROBERT NEULANDER, ACCUSED KILLER: I do not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And let me bring in William Fitzpatrick, the prosecutor on this case. William, you know, describe the scene, because I think forensics
play a key role in this case. There were blood spatters everywhere, including, what, like a six-foot-high ceiling, right? It was six-feet
above where everything happened, apparently?
WILLIAM FITZPATRICK, ONONDAGA COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Yes, you`re exactly right, Rita. This was a forensic cornucopia, and that`s what
eventually solved the case. And please don`t blame the cops, because the cops were told by the local medical examiner that this injury was
consistent with a fall in the shower after about 40 minutes. And at that point, they have no probable cause to get a search warrant. But they did a
very, very thorough job with the time that was allotted to them. And what really sealed the case, I mean, it would take an entire show to tell your
viewers all the evidence against Dr. Neulander, but what really sealed the case was the frantic phone call to 911 from the defendant`s daughter who,
while the victim is still in the shower, and she is out of sight of the defendant, her father, and her mother, the victim, she screams into the
phone, oh my God, there`s blood everywhere.
Well, obviously, there should be blood nowhere except for the shower. But she was right, there was blood everywhere, because there was a violent
struggle manifested by blood spatter in the bedroom, in the hall leading to the bedroom, in the bathroom, under her pajamas, where there should not be
any blood, if she was actually in the shower. So, it was a -- it was a case that was literally solved by forensic evidence.
COSBY: Yes, and it sounds like there was quite a bit of it too. We`re going to get to that after the break. Everybody, stay with us. Much more
on this story. Does he deserve a new trial? We`ll talk about that after the break.
[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And this is Rita Cosby here in for Ashleigh Banfield. We`re still talking about the former New York doctor who has spent the last three years
behind bars, convicted of killing his wife in their mansion. Only now, he`s getting a retrial and a second chance to convince the jury that she
simply fell in the shower. Part of the reason he`s actually getting this retrial, one of the jurors did something interesting, Ian Wheatley, it`s
not because of the evidence in this case, Ian. It`s because the juror, really, I think, did cross the line in this case, don`t you think, Ian?
WHEATLEY: Well, the way it all shook out was that this juror sent somewhere in the ballpark over the course of the trial, it`s about a 2-1/2
week trial, several thousand text messages and sent a ballpark of 7,000 text messages. Of those messages, there were messages that did include
this particular juror, who did tell the judge that she received text messages about the trial, regarding the subject matter of the trial, from
family and friends. Now, the judge sort of dismissed that as being something that rose to the level of juror misconduct. That was what
Neulander`s legal defense team had tried to use between -- after the verdict was given by the jury and sentencing, they were trying to use that
to toss it out. But ultimately, that did lead to just late last month, the New York State Supreme Court overturning that conviction of Robert
Neulander by a 3-2 decision, the majority saying that the judge in that case was wrong to sign off on that jury`s verdict despite the admitted
juror misconduct.
COSBY: Yes. And listen, there are some questions. The jury apparently slamming, saying he`s guilty, he`s this, he`s that. You certainly don`t
want someone on a jury who already has a predisposition, and is talking to other people. That`s a big no-no. Let me go to Dr. William Morrone, who
is, of course, an expert forensic pathologist and toxicologist. Dr. Morrone, you know, the prosecution in this case says that they believe that
she was beaten with a blunt-force object. They even talked about at one point, her head hitting against the shower bench in this luxurious mansion.
[19:50:08] One of the motives they also state is that there was a $500 life insurance policy. He`s pretty wealthy but seemed to be able to get some
money out of the deal, and that they were, again, in a marital issue. They were having, you know, separation -- trying out a separation. It comes
down to, though, I think, forensics and can you tell the difference, Dr. Morrone, from somebody just slipped and fell in the shower to somebody who
was hit with a blunt force object?
DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER & FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Absolutely. We have three rules when people die in a shower or a bathtub. The first
rule is it is usually a heart attack; the second rule has to be a stroke, possibly. The third rule is it could be an overdose. When somebody takes
that much of a beating and when you have that much blood all over the house, it`s not a slip and a fall. That person had blunt force trauma in
multiple locations throughout the bedroom and bathroom. You can tell that difference as opposed to (AUDIO GAP) they fall and hit their head in the
shower, you still have the distance to fall to make that fatal, but once the trauma, it takes a lot of energy to crack a skull. It takes a lot of
energy to break open the skin and let arteries and veins release that much blood. That`s the difference between a fall and an assault.
COSBY: Yes. And also, Dr. Morrone, one of the -- one of the other things too is apparently the ceiling which is over six feet above, had blood on
it, too. As you point out, the blood spatters, there`s a lot of questions in this case. The defense said, again, that he is innocent. And we will
continue to follow this case, everybody. And HLN`s original series "INSIDE EVIL WITH CHRIS CUOMO" Chris takes viewers inside the country`s most
dangerous minds. This week, Chris Cuomo seeks the answers to the age-old question, is evil due to nature or nurture? He goes inside the story of
identical twins, Robert and Stephen Stefanski (ph), and they are the only known twins to independently become murderers, the Spahalski brothers.
Between the two of them, they killed five people. Chris traveled to upstate New York to speak with Robert about his brother and his decisions
to kill innocent victims.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS CUOMO, HLN HOST: Robert has no regrets about helping cover up his twin`s crime. You had other siblings, would you have done that for any of
your siblings?
ROBERT SPAHALSKI, CONVICTED MURDERER: Absolutely. Absolutely. I`ll go as far as your mind wants to go. That`s how I`m with people.
CUOMO: You seem to come to that conclusion all quick with people.
R. SPAHALSKI: I know. Again, if I`m your friend, if I justify why you want to kill that person, and I think you`re justified to do that, then I
will tag along with you and blow his head off. I`m not a boy scout. I`m not going to lie here and say otherwise.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What these two gentlemen prove is that identical twins are two halves of a whole, and in this case, it`s a lethal hole.
CUOMO: Stephen received a 12-year sentence for killing Ronald Ripley. Robert was sent to that same prison for breaking in and robbing a local
high school.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In 1978, when they were incarcerated at the same place at the same time, one brother tried unsuccessfully to escape. The
other brother covered for him.
STEPHEN SPAHALSKI, CONVICTED MURDERER: My brother almost escaped from here. We just needed to have fun, that`s all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Very chilling. Well, "INSIDE EVIL WITH CHRIS CUOMO: The Killer Twins" airs this Sunday at 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time and Pacific Time on HLN.
[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And "ONE MORE THING" tonight, a good magician never reveals his secrets, but a good cop is able to reach into his bag of tricks to solve
crimes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you guys ever see a cop do magic? As a crime happens fast, magic happens even faster. (INAUDIBLE) does that look real
clean? It looks real. Watch!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Pretty good stuff. Well, George Ripley of the New York Police Department does magic tricks as a way to loosen up the mood on the street.
He says his cards are always with him even in the interrogation room. He began showing off his skills back in 2015 after a bad period of gun
violence in the city. Good for him. Well, we will see you back here tomorrow night at 6:00 Eastern Time. Thanks, everybody for watching.
"FORENSIC FILES" begins right now.
END
