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Hala Gorani Tonight

Germany-Russia Ties Under Scrutiny After Trump's Remarks; Merkel Pushes Back On Trump's Public Scolding; Trump Slams Allies, Singles Out Germany At NATO Summit; Roger Federer Crashes Out Of Wimbledon; England And Croatia Heading For Extra Time. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired July 11, 2018 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:00:18]

ROBYN CURNOW, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. Live from CNN's World Headquarters here in Atlanta, I'm Robyn Curnow. Thanks for joining

me. Hala Gorani is out.

So, tonight, Donald Trump kicks the NATO summit off with a confrontational start telling allies they need to pay up and launching a blistering attack

on Germany.

Also, ahead, incredible new footage shows the heart stopping moments those young Thai boys were pulled from a cave. You want to see those pictures.

And it a match everyone is talking about, England and Croatia are battling it out for a spot in the World Cup final right now. We are live in London

this evening.

So, it is an alliance that has bound western nations for nearly seven decades, yet this evening, NATO is facing one of its toughest challenges,

this time, from within. U.S. President Donald Trump lashing out at European allies as world leaders gathered for a summit at NATO Headquarters

in Brussels.

Right now, they are all having a formal dinner, wrapping up a day of top level meetings, but President Trump kicked off day by blasting NATO member

nations for not investing enough in military defense. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: United States is paying far too much and other countries are not paying enough. It's

disproportionate and not fair to the taxpayers of the United States and we're going to make it fair.

I think these countries have to step it up not over a 10-year period. They have to step it up immediately.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CURNOW: Those words launched a NATO summit like no other. Let's walk you through how it all unfolded. So, the U.S. president started the day with a

breakfast meeting with NATO Chief Ian Stoltenberg. There were polite smiles until Donald Trump served up more blistering criticism dishing out

his harshest comments to Germany, making stunning comments about that country's energy ties to Russia.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRESIDENT TRUMP: Germany is solely controlled by Russia because they were getting 60 percent to 70 percent of their energy from Russia in a new

pipeline.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CURNOW: Well, it's really worth noting here. He made those remarks even before he got to the summit. The German chancellor, Angela Merkel pushing

back on those comments as she arrives at NATO headquarters.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANGELA MERKEL, GERMAN CHANCELLOR (through translator): Germany also does a lot for NATO. We are the second largest donor of troops. We put most

military abilities in the service of NATO and we are strongly committed in Afghanistan where we also defend the interests of the United States of

America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CURNOW: Well, shortly after leaders had to pose for a NATO family photo, you can imagine how tense that was. Take a look at the moment Canada's

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau seems to ignore Mr. Trump altogether, or does he? You know that Ottawa and Washington amongst others are locked in a

trade dispute.

Now one person Donald Trump did seek out was the Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. The men walking and talking together in this shot. So,

then it was down to business for the official NATO meeting with President Trump able to push his message of beefing up collective defense spending to

the forefront.

And later, President Trump and Chancellor Merkel got to sit down together in a sideline meeting. Mr. Trump played nice for the cameras insisting he

and Mrs. Merkel have a very, very good relationship.

And then in the last hour, the U.S. president joined everyone for a formal dinner. There you see him beside his wife, Melania, and before the night

is through, there was a chance for one more class photo before sitting down for an evening meal. We might get toast in the next few minutes or so.

Now, we'll check on the fallout from Donald Trump's comments on Germany with Atika Shubert as well as the overall impact of this first day of the

NATO Summit. Atika, good to see you. First of all, what a day. What a day, wow.

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It is an incredible day and it's being topped off with a dinner. That's happening just behind

me at the museum there and there will be plenty of more opportunities for President Trump to improve upon what he described as his tremendous

relationship with Germany's chancellor, Angela Merkel.

But it's very clear that she is the world leader. He's singled out as his opponent at this summit directing not just tweets, but those comments about

Germany being somehow under the control of Russia. It was pretty extraordinary to see him level these allegations against one of America's

biggest allies in Europe.

CURNOW: Atika, we want to bring in Jeff Zeleny who has been traveling with the president. Jeff, good to see you there in Brussels. Mr. Trump

certainly came spoiling for a confrontation is no surprise, and he said he didn't hold back, did he?

[15:05:06] JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: He did not hold back. I think interestingly as Atika was just saying, he did single

out Chancellor Merkel. Of course, there are other leaders from other countries who are not paying their fair share, in the words of President

Trump, but he did single out the German chancellor.

I think one of the reasons for that, it was a day of projection, maybe deflection or misdirection. The president clearly has been the criticized

for being, you know, too kind and embracing the too warmly, the Russian President Putin.

So, he was trying to misdirect things a little bit in advance of that summit next week. That the U.S. or he is not the only one who has a close

relationship or beholden to or in words, but by saying Germany is a captive of Russia certainly you know as the chancellor was saying, does not need to

be lectured about what it's like to be a captive of Russia by Donald Trump.

So, their meeting was very tense. Interestingly, the pipeline was thrown in there as sort of, you know, separate issue when defense spending is

actually the biggest gripe that President Trump has. Of course, he's not the first U.S. president to air that gripe at all but doing so in such a

different and undiplomatic way.

CURNOW: Yes. It's not the first time he's conflated defense and trade issues as well. And Jeff, just also another question to you. There's a

photo making the rounds that seems to sum up the day. It was from one of the class photos and all these leaders are looking past each other in

direction directions. There's been a lot of cross talk.

ZELENY: No question. These family photo sessions are always so interesting and the body language and who's looking at who or who's not

looking at who. But certainly, the images of the president looking beyond in the distance in some photographs, he was standing alone looking side to

side.

But he and Chancellor Merkel, they did not have any harsh words publicly. They did privately and separately, but they are at a dinner this evening

and we saw a short time ago, Melania Trump who's traveling here with the U.S. president clearly was at his side when they were shaking hands with

Chancellor Merkel. So, another day of meetings tomorrow. I don't expect the tone to be any brighter than it was today.

CURNOW: No, I'm sure. Many people watching today, Atika, to you and asking a bigger question, is the military security architecture of Europe

in threat?

SHUBERT: Well, I think this is what many people are wondering is that why has President Trump set up NATO as the -- and especially Chancellor Angela

Merkel as his opponent. He seems to be setting the stage for a showdown with NATO while comparatively saying his meeting with President Putin in

Helsinki will be easy.

This is what many people are worried about. Not so much that the U.S. would withdraw out of NATO, but that all of these attacks and allies

weakens NATO internally. Particularly to attack Germany's chancellor, who has on the issue of Russia, I mean, Angela Merkel has been the European

leader, who has stood up to President Putin, who actually gaunt E.U. states to impose sanctions against Russia when Russia annexed Crimea from Ukraine.

You know, she is one of the few leaders in Europe that has this interesting relationship with Putin. She speaks fluent Russian and yet she's still

unable to stand up to him. There's actually quite a lot President Trump could learn from her if he would like to take her advice at this dinner

tonight.

CURNOW: OK. I don't know if that will happen. Jeff Zeleny will be able to tell us if she managed to bend his ear. Either way thanks to you both.

It's been a long day and another one tomorrow. Jeff and Atika, appreciate it, guys.

We will have much more on the NATO Summit coming up later on in the show. Former U.S. ambassador to Russia joins me in about 10 minutes time so stick

around for that.

But also, wow, we have some new dramatic pictures of that rescue of the Thai football team that was trapped in a cave for almost three weeks. The

rescue operation included dives through murky flooded chambers as well as treks along jagged rocks and cramped quarters that maybe even dry land

treacherous.

Just look at these images coming to us from the Navy SEALs in Thailand. Let's pause for a moment and see how it all unfolded.

(VIDEO CLIP)

[15:10:03] CURNOW: And also, I want you to take a look at these pictures. Actually, isn't that the image everyone has been waiting for, perhaps

thought it was impossible, but it's not. The boys resting in hospital.

Doctors say a few of the teens have mild cases of pneumonia, but otherwise, they're pretty healthy. It's expected the first team will be discharged in

about a week's time. Parents are allowed to see boys and there they are there, but not touch them. They're looking at their sons through that

glass.

Some of them dabbing their eyes. They're not allowed to hug them yet or touch them because doctors are actually worried that the parents might

infect the boys whose immune systems are still a little bit weak.

Now CNN's Matt Rivers is at the hospital where the boys are recovering. And Matt, what wonderful and heart-warming pictures those are?

MATT RIVERS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Absolutely and really just some stunning video. You know, it's amazing to see the pictures from

inside the hospital, but stunning video from inside the cave. And really giving us more insight into what we had heard from divers and rescuers all

week long that this was a dangerous place to attempt a rescue mission and now we can kind of see that for ourselves, thanks to this video provided by

the government of Thailand.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RIVERS (voice-over): For the first time, video released from inside the cave of one of the most daring rescues of all time. You can see how muddy

water is as divers disappear under the surface. Diving, swimming and trekking miles into the cave through darkness, they reach boys and then the

hard work begins.

Loaded on two stretchers, one by one, over three anxious days, they're dragged across sharp, jagged floors. At times, they're pulled on top of

the tube sucking water out of the cave. Part of the pumping operation that made this rescue possible in the first place.

Where it's too steep, pictures show the boys hoisted through the air. A pulley system attached to a hanging stretcher. Below, rushing water makes

for a swift current under foot, illuminated by rescuer head lamps. It's all incredibly dangerous.

Flooded passageways, the definition of peril, heartbreakingly illustrated with the death of a former Thai Navy SEAL, Saman Kunan. He died after

bringing oxygen supplies into the cave just before the rescue began.

His Navy SEAL brothers carried on their mission in his name. Diving, swimming, and carrying the exhausted kids and their coach for hours until

they could make it out far enough for initial medical treatment. A final picture shows the last eerily illuminated steps. Heroes freeing the team

from their subterranean prison.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): This unity it's not only with Chiang Rai or Thailand, it's a global unit unity. This incident was more

than a live-saving missing. It's gone beyond that. It is the unity of all nationalities.

RIVERS: All that led to this, 12 boys and their coach weak, but healthy, recovering. Some of them seen for the first time in this video from inside

the isolation ward of a Chiang Rai hospital. One flashes a peace sign. Others stand and talk.

Some make the sign for I love you with their hands, likely aimed at their parents on the other side of the glass. The doctors won't let them hug

their kids for a few days yet, but the mere sight of them, the first time in 18 horrific days was enough to illicit tears of joy.

This improbable reunion thanks to the bravery and skill of the rescuers, the men who delivered the good news whole world wanted the hear.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RIVERS: And Robyn, two quick notes for you. First, about that rescue video, what we saw from the Thai government, the video that they gave us

did not include what rescuers would tell you is the most difficult part of that operation.

That would be when they had to go under water with the boys, so as treacherous as the video was, that wasn't even the hardest thing they had

to do. And second point, with the video inside the hospital, at one point, we had a translator here in Thailand listen to the video and in one of the

videos, the mom of one of the boys points to the glass and mouths to her son, I'm going to buy you a new cellphone.

And so, it's a reminder that these are just kids. They're teenagers. They are looking for an opportunity, even as one as crazy and dangerous to get

something out of their parents.

CURNOW: Eighteen days in cave, I think, you know, many parents would say they'd happily give a cell phone for much less. Matt Rivers, good to see

you. Thanks so much.

Now CNN was allowed to go inside the cave after all the boys and their coach were rescued. Here's David McKenzie with a very dramatic look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This is a spectacular entrance of the cave system and the boys had no idea when they came in here

that the rains would flow in and that their saga would capture the world's attention.

But they had to head deeper into the cave system as the water streamed in and it was here where the rescuers first mobilized to get them out. The

boys survived by drinking water from the roof and they didn't eat any food for nine days.

[15:15:11] You can imagine their joy when a British diver popped up through the water nine days after they went missing. Everyone thought that they

were dead and that was the beginning of this incredible rescue mission.

When they started their mission, the water was much higher than where it is now. The measuring stick and they pumped water out 24 hours a day for days

and days, down the mountain. That allowed them the space in the roof of the caverns to get in with those extra divers and a short enough distance

to bring the boys out.

And the last people to emerge were the four Thai Navy SEALs after the four days of rescue. No one thought they could pull this rescue off, but they

did using a combination of expert divers and incredible team work. David McKenzie, CNN, inside the cave in Chiang Rai.

CURNOW: Now that as you probably know is traditionally a U.S. Navy battle cry. It's now the slogan of that rescue that's had the world on the edge

of its seat as the Thai Navy SEALS kept everyone up to speed. You probably saw it. They signed all of their posts with a hooyah.

Sometimes the only word the global audience could understand, although the Americans say it's booyah. Either way, that rallying cry stuck to now mean

mission accomplished. As Ivan Watson reported when the news broke, take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They've been posting on their Facebook page in Thai and some of these messages are

pretty important. Quote, "All 12 Wild Boars and the coach have left the cave. All safe, now waiting to receive four divers to come out, hooyah."

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Hooyah is a universal language that I think we all understand.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CURNOW: We do, indeed, and that chant has been echoing in the caves, making international headlines. Even becoming a meme online. Complete

with its own hash tag.

Still to come, a fight among family. How one senior European diplomat describes the tensions at the NATO summit as U.S. President Donald Trump

takes a hard line with some of his strongest allies.

And also, only three World Cup teams are still in the running with Croatia facing off against England as we speak. Who will punch their ticket to the

final against France? Stick around for that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CURNOW: I'm Robyn Curnow sitting for Hala. She'll be back in the next few days. I want to take you to our top story. The U.S. president has some

harsh words for his allies saying many NATO members haven't been paying their fair share. While some of Donald Trump's other comments, though, are

raising eyebrows, many diplomats agree that the alliance needs to step up its defense spending.

[15:20:08] Lithuania's president spoke to us earlier.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DALIA GRYBAUSKAITE, LITHUANIAN PRESIDENT: Some of us, eight countries, already spending 2 percent and others on 2024 committing to do it. I think

that some kind of positive pressure is useful because after 2014 at the Crimea occupation, all of us who realize how dangerous our neighborhood is

and how much we need to spend for our defense.

We, Lithuania, for example, we started to spend every year 30 percent more on defense and we did this in four years in the row. So, from this point

of view, such positive pressure is useful because the situation around the world and in Europe around our eastern borders especially is very

difficult, deteriorating, and not safe. So, from this point of view, we're taking this pressure as quite positive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CURNOW: The Lithuanian president there speaking to me a little bit earlier. Now Mr. Trump also took many NATO leaders by surprise when he

went behind his repeated demands that they meet their defense spending commitments.

He's now urging them to contribute more, 4 percent of their GDP to the cause. His strong-arm tactics may be off putting to some, but are they

effective?

Let's bring in Thomas Pickering, a former U.S. diplomat. Among his many roles, he served as ambassador to Russia and the United Nations. Great to

see you, Ambassador. Thanks for joining us.

THOMAS PICKERING, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO RUSSIA: Thank you, Robyn. Nice to be back.

CURNOW: So, my question, you heard the president of Lithuania talk about good pressure. Do you agree with NATO members like her that Mr. Trump's

actions have been positive and that perhaps this wrecking ball diplomacy works?

PICKERING: There has been a positive reaction among a number of NATO members. Fifteen now have agreed to reach the 2 percent target in 2024,

2025. Germany has upped its contribution from a lower 1 percent to 1.5 percent, and others are moving.

The really interesting question, has it destroyed the fabric of solidarity that is so important to NATO membership and are people being tired of in

fact having their contribution to defense measured solely on the basis of how much they contribute to their defense budget when they're doing other

things as well.

They stand a solid and firm with us across a wide spectrum of very difficult issues. They're with us at this time when Russia has

increasingly pushed westward if I could put it that way, in Ukraine and Crimea, and threatens other places and certainly, the Baltic states, which

are small and have a small base, have responded because they've seen the threat closer from Russia.

Not the urging stronger from Mr. Trump. They all add up to the same thing. That it is important for NATO to stand strong and firm. But it's important

to recognize that beyond the money equation, there are very significant ties that bring us together around a whole range of issues, which are very

important for the United States.

And to threaten those ties on the basis of a pure dollar and cents contribution is a little bit pennywise and pound foolish.

CURNOW: That's what the U.S. president can do and is doing. So, the question is, what are the consequences of that. You talk about the fabric

of NATO. Is the security architecture of Europe under threat here?

PICKERING: But I think the security architecture of Europe is as I said a moment ago, more under threat than it has been for two decades. And in

that regard, it is important for Europe and the United States to pay attention.

Europe cannot in my view, survive in security terms without the American nuclear commitment. But the United States cannot conduct worldwide

diplomacy backed up strong military force without friends and allies as they have proven in Afghanistan, Iraq and other places.

So, we need to look at this not as a one-way dollars and cents street, but a two-way street. We'll work with you on a wide degree of issues if you

can work with us on increasing NATO's readiness and capacity by building your defense budget. That's the kind of approach that NATO understands,

that reflects American leadership.

CURNOW: And that's the way it's been for the last 70 years in many ways.

PICKERING: Of course, it has. So, when we talk about the family spat as perhaps one diplomatically put it, do you agree with that? Because in many

ways, does what is happening now play in to Mr. Putin's hands?

PICKERING: It does. It puts him in a position to believe that something he's been trying to do for a long while is drive wedges from the United

States and Europe has got the president of the United States holding the wedge in the crack waiting for him to put the sledgehammer to it.

[15:25:13] And that's a misperception, but never the less, it's something we encourage people to think about as we go ahead. That NATO is being

weakened, that the E.U. and NATO somehow are not standing firmly with the United States anymore because Mr. Trump has a narrow perspective on what to

do.

Because he's using harsh trade policies in another way to try to balance some kind of account book which he himself invented and which bears little

relationship to the realities of international trade accounting.

CURNOW: Should NATO members, particularly those in the Baltic states, be nervous, concerned about U.S. commitments to the NATO's article five? I

mean, how confident are they the U.S. would show up, fulfill collectively security obligations? Are we at that point?

PICKERING: Robyn, you'll remember when President Trump was elected, he came disparaging Article Five. Over a period of time, he was talked into

reinvigorating U.S. support for it. If I were in the Baltics and I had seen this play, and now I had seen what goes on at NATO, I would say that

my anxiety level is increasing a little bit despite the fact that we and others NATO allies have deployed troops to the Baltics to assure in fact

that they have this sense of our international support.

But just turn that around, in 9/11, within hours, all of the NATO members then sat down and supported Article Five for the first time and the last

time when the United States was attacked in 9/11.

CURNOW: So, it's all for one and one for all. The only time it has been a vote, as you say, is when America was attacked. That's an important point

to note. Let's see what happens. This could be just a lot of rhetoric. Concrete actions on the ground speak for themselves as well. Thomas

Pickering, really appreciate you giving us --

PICKERING: Thank you, Robyn. Delighted to be with you.

CURNOW: Have a good rest of the evening.

PICKERING: Thank you.

CURNOW: So, we'll have much more on the NATO summit ahead including a closer look at Mr. Trump's claim that Germany is totally controlled by

Russia because of its energy imports. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CURNOW: We'll take you back to the NATO Summit in Brussel. U.S. President Donald Trump causing quite a stir when he took aim at Germany during a

breakfast meeting today. He questioned why U.S. dollars are helping to defend Germany when that country is paying, quote, "billions and billions

to Russia for its energy needs." Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRESIDENT TRUMP: Germany is totally controlled by Russia because they were getting from 60 to 70 percent of their energy from Russia at a new

pipeline.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CURNOW: Well, that is false. CNN has fact checked Mr. Trump's up to 70 percent claim according to German government data from 2015, the most

recent year available, 35 percent of Germany's gas imports come from Russia with Norway and Netherlands close behind. But the U.S. president continued

making his case.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Well, certainly, it doesn't seem to make sense that they pay billions of dollars to Russia and now we have to defend them against

Russia.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CURNOW: Now, does the U.S. president have a point there? Well, we asked our Fred Pleitgen, who's in Moscow.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FRED PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, Robyn, Germany and Russia traditionally have had very complex relations with one

another. That, of course, due to the history that they have and then also due to their proximity. Especially in Eastern Europe. And the Germans

have long believed that economic intertwinement and cooperation could also lead to better political relations. And then that vantage point, the more

to two pipelines certainly is part of that project.

Now, on the other hand, of course, we do have to keep in mind that it was set in place by the previous German government under Gerhard Schroeder

which was a lot more Russia friendly than Angela Merkel's government ever was and ever has been. Angela Merkel, in fact, is seen in Germany

internationally as well, as a fairly pro-American leader. She's been very tough on Russia as far as sanctions are concerned. She's worked very hard

to get a common European line on sanctions against Russia. For instance after the Ukraine crisis, at the same time, she is also one of the most

important figures in negotiating with Vladimir Putin for instance in the Ukraine crisis, but then also in relations between the European Union and

Russia as well. So if you look at the relations between Angela Merkel and Vladimir Putin, between Russia and Germany, they are difficult relations,

but they are also one that do happen in a fairly constructive atmosphere, Robyn.

CURNOW: Thanks so much, Fred, for that report.

Now, there is so much at stake with this NATO summit, not since the end of the cold war has Europe been so on edge because of a resurgent Russia. And

it's hard to think of a time when NATO unity was ever this much in doubt. I want to get more perspective on all of this. Our senior political

analyst, David Gergen joins me now. David was an adviser to four U.S. presidents, Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton. So

I think you are pretty qualified to talk to us right now, David. I do want to -- I want to get your sense from you about a Trump tweet. The latest

one the U.S. president has just tweeted. We can bring that up. And the first line there. What good is NATO? Is this Twitter friendly trash talk

or do you think there is a real threat to Europe here and NATO?

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I think we're as close to a crisis in transatlantic relationships as we have been any time since the --

almost since the Second World War. Certainly in recent years. And that is we have a president of the United States and the United States was a chief

architect of NATO. It's always been the leader of NATO, who basically does question the value of NATO, whether that's become obsolete. He's raised

that in public. Now he's been insulting various leaders of NATO such as Angela Merkel as he did in that blistering attack on her at the beginning

of the Brussels conversations. He did seem to change his tone as the day went on in Brussels toward a more positive and embracing view. But still,

there are many on both sides of the Atlantic and I must say this. She looked at the mainstream thinkers and passive leaders in the United States

and foreign policy, the vast majority of them simply do not understand nor support the approach that the current president is taking.

CURNOW: OK. So you mentioned Angela Merkel and that attack on her, which was pretty blistering. Mrs. Merkel knows all too well what it is to live

under soviet domination and because he accused her of being complicit, at least, with Russia. This is what she replied with.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANGELA MERKEL, CHANCELLOR OF GERMANY (through translator): Because of current events, I wanted to add that, I, myself lived through a part of

Germany being controlled by the Soviet Union and I'm very happy that today we are united in freedom as the federal republic of Germany and that we can

also say that we manage our independent policies and manage our independent decisions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CURNOW: What do you make of that?

[15:35:57] GERGEN: Well, I'm a pro-Merkel person, so I'm probably biased on this. I think she's been some of the glue that's held the transatlantic

alliance together in recent years and I think has been one of the best leaders that we've seen in Europe in recent years among the democracies.

So -- but having said that, I think she has a perfect and legitimate point to make that she's lived under what it means under soviet control, under

Russian control. And that is vastly different from what's happening today. She feels very strongly that Germany is its own independent country.

But the other thing, I'm sure is what she didn't say is that she's in a much more fragile position politically than she's been in anytime since she

became chancellor. And for the president of the United States to attack her publicly in the way he has, only seems to undercut her the legitimacy

and would strike her and I'm sure her allies as an effort to unseat her. Angela Merkel had closest relationship that President Obama had. Trump's

predecessor. Was with Angela Merkel. They remain good friends today. And it's been -- it's very conditioning that we've taken on Germany in a way we

have.

CURNOW: So I want to bring up also a quote and an assessment from U.S. intelligence agencies. This is from 2017. And they wrote this. Why

Russia wanted to influence the U.S. election. This is the U.S. intel agency saying, "The kremlin sought to advance its long standing desire to

undermine the U.S.-led liberal democratic order, the promotion of which Mr. Putin and other senior Russian leaders view as a threat to Russia and Mr.

Putin's regime." Is this what's happening now?

GERGEN: Well, certainly one interpretation of what's happened is that we've been moving in that direction over the last year and a half. That

the Russian goal of dismantling NATO and sort of in effect, what Russia would like is a dismantled NATO in which it can have individual bilateral

relationships with various countries in Europe, but it can bully them. It would have more power and the concern among foreign policy folks is not

only are we threatening the unity of NATO, but what could emerge is a U.S. that thinks it can bully or can threaten individual countries and get a

much better trade deal, get much better this or that, but at the same time, the undercutting NATO undercuts the strongest and best military alliance in

the history of the world. It also undermines the strongest partnership in the west between Europe and the United States. Our trade -- we trade of --

we are the biggest trading partners with each other and we have so many other values that we share. That too mindlessly, almost mindlessly, it

seems perhaps there are other motives, that we're starting to tear that apart. It's setting off alarm bells, not only in Europe, which is all

apparent, but here in the United States as well.

CURNOW: When you talk about that, like I said, you advised four U.S. presidents. Many U.S. presidents have said the same thing. NATO needs to

you know, pay a little bit more into their defense spending. There needs to be, I think even Joe Biden might have criticized this gas pipeline a few

years ago. What is different here? Is there a difference in tone or is Donald Trump, you know, perhaps being given a hard time unnecessarily so?

GERGEN: Well, he has a point about the fact that the NATO countries haven't pulled their weight in what they've pledged and that they will need

to get it out. To their credit, they began raising their level of defense spending after the Russians annexed the Crimean peninsula and then

President Trump has accelerated that. It also is true that Americans well beyond Trump have questioned the gas pipelines and the reliance upon

Russian oil and gas.

But I must say, the difference now between now and then in the past have been these have always been how much they pay in, how much -- what the gas

pipeline. They've always been reasonably secondary issues that are best discussed privately, quietly, and in a friendly way behind closed doors and

you first sort these things out. And the primary goal of NATO meetings has been to hold the alliance together to strengthen and solidarity of the

alliance members. And to take the secondary issues and make them primary. It seems to be a way that's threatening the alliance itself and the

alliance is far more important than the individual secondary issues.

[15:40:04] CURNOW: David Gergen, always great to speak to you. Thanks so much. Hearing all of your perspective.

GERGEN: Thank you very much.

CURNOW: Have a lovely evening.

GERGEN: Thank you.

CURNOW: So still to come tonight, it is a day of destiny for both England and Croatia. Right now, they are fighting it out for a place in the World

Cup final. We're live in London and we've got an update on the score as well. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CURNOW: So India would not be the same without its railways bringing distant cities a little bit closer. Well today, we explore the country in

style.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Since 1853, India's railway system has been taking locals far and worried, along its 64,000 kilometers of track. For many,

it's a daily necessity in the form of a crowded commuter train. But for others, it's an adventure. An exciting way to explore the vast country and

one that can be enjoyed in style.

Welcome aboard the luxurious Maharajas Express. From the moment guests board the train, they experience five-star accommodation. With first-class

cuisine. Head by an executive chef, John Stone.

JOHN STONE, EXECUTIVE CHEF, MAHARAJAS EXPRESS: Ever since my early childhood, I was very impressed in traveling on the trains and I still

remember vividly that even during the night when we couldn't see anything outside the windows, I would still just keep on peeping out of the window.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John Stone's career transported him from dreaming about trains to working on them. Feeding the 88 passengers and 60 crew members

on every trip.

STONE: The best part of the kitchen is everything the guest eats on board is prepared on board.

HEMANT KUMAR, GENERAL MANAGER, MAHARAJAS EXPRESS: This is a nice way to see the country. Through railway. Because when you board the train, it's

a journey of eight days. So when you first board the train and you need not to pack or unpack your luggage, just board the train and forget about

each and everything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's exactly what Greg and Joanna Newman decided to do.

GREG NEWMAN, MAHARAJAS EXPRESS PASSENGER: my lifelong ambition actually to come to India.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For the Newman's riding the rails was an easy decision.

JOANA NEWMAN, MAHARAJAS EXPRESS PASSENGER: It sounded really exciting to see lot on trains, seeing the world go by. Look out the windows and you

feel as if you're part of it. You're not flying over it. You're not driving. You're just there.

GREG NEWMAN: Trains have this wonderful ability to get you somewhere overnight and wake up the next morning in a different city. Left one

place. Arrive in a totally different place without having really get moved.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CURNOW: It looks great, doesn't it?

[15:45:55] Well, more to come including who will make it to the World Cup final. England or Croatia. We might know in the next few minutes and

we'll bring you all of the reaction.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CURNOW: I want to update you on a big shock in the world of sport. Roger Federer is out of Wimbledon. I mean, it's amazing and you can talk to a

South African, Kevin Anderson in the quarterfinal. It was embarrassing five-six epic. Actually, Federer squander the match point allowing

Anderson a chance to hit back which he did. I must say in style. It's the first time Anderson has reached a semifinal at Wimbledon. First time a

South African reaches semifinals at Wimbledon. I think it was Kevin Curran. So well done to him. And, yes, bad luck to Federer.

But we also into the final few moments of the World Cup semifinal between England and Croatia, the score, one-one. The game is being played in front

of a huge crowd in Moscow. The same stadium with the final will be on Sunday. France, of course, already there. So this is going to certainly

be a one to watch. So let's go now to our Don Riddell. I think he's standing by. England started off well, but I think you're all biting your

nails, are you?

DON RIDDELL, CNN INTERNATIONAL SPORTS CORRESPONDENT: Everybody's biting their nails. This is another nerve shredder here. It's one all. We are

in injury time. The three minutes of added time. And then it looks like we could be heading to extra time. Another half hour period. And if so,

that would be the third consecutive game that Croatia have had to endure an extra period and, of course, England also came through their round of 16

game against Colombia with extra time and then penalties. So it is tight. It is tight.

England made a fantastic start scoring a brilliant free kick from Kieran Trippier after just five minutes. He is one of the players in the

tournament and he struck it absolutely superbly. England had chances after that. They hit the post, but through Harry Kane later in the first half.

But after the break, they have really struggled to impose themselves. Croatia equalizing midway through the second half with a goal from Ivan

Perisic. Perisic has also hit the post, but it's one-all. And as I say, although England do have a free kick on the edge of the Croatia box right

now, we'll see what happen, shall we?

And no goal. So, yes, it looks like we're heading towards extra time again, Robyn.

CURNOW: I know. That's agonizing, but many in Croatia also know this is their one chance that they've got this far and if they made it to the

final, I mean, that would be huge for them.

RIDDELL: This is an absolutely magnificent performance from Croatia. One of the smaller countries to get this to point of the World Cup. Remember,

there haven't been a World Cup country that long. They gained their independence in the '90s. You're looking at their fans here celebrating

their goal. They actually got to the semifinals of the first World Cup they ever played in, which is 20 years ago, 1998. They lost to France in

the semis and we all know France went on to win it. Since then, they haven't had as much go their way of the World Cup. They failed to qualify

for one of the tournaments. On the other three occasions, they didn't even get out of their group. But they have a fantastic team. A very exciting

team. An incredibly stacked midfield with the likes of Ivan Rakitic and Luka Modric. They've got a terrific goalie in Subasic, so this is a

really, really good team and we shouldn't be surprised to see Croatia doing so well.

[15:50:04] Of course, England has their own story. Their supporters were not expecting much in this tournament. England supporters have kind of

given up on their team having watched them send so many stars to major tournaments and then it all end in tears and disappointment. But this year

has been different. It's a young team. They left without too much fanfare, when they headed off to Russia, but they've grown in confidence

throughout this tournament and then here they are in the semis and who knows what's going happen next.

CURNOW: Yes, who knows? OK. So stand by, Don. I'm going to let you just watch a little bit. We're in extra time, I hear. So I'm going to let you

watch that for two minutes. I want to get a sense of how each country is feeling. Mark Bolton is in London with English fans and N1 senior

correspondent, Hrvoje Kresic, is in Zagreb and this is certainly extremely exciting. I'm going to go first to you in Croatia. How are you doing over

there?

HRVOJE KRESIC, SENIOR CORRESPONDENT, N1: Well, it's been exhausting, as you said, but since Croatia was on the receiving end for most of the game,

now Croatia has scored a goal and everybody was expecting make a sudden -- the atmosphere, it's completely insane. I'm here in the middle of Zagreb,

in one of the pubs where there's approximately 100 people watching the game. And everybody expects Croatia to win. Pretty much everybody wants

to press for it, 60 minutes up until Perisic has scored. And now everybody expects Croatia to win and they say even if we have to go the penalties, we

have shown what we can do in penalties. They're saying that England is under ropes. We think we can win this and proceed to the finals of the

World Cup.

CURNOW: Hrvoje, stay with me. I mean, that's fabulous to get this view where you are. But I want to go also to Mark who's in London. And how are

England's fans doing as well? I mean, not everyone's at the pub. Are they also pretty exhausted or they're pumped for what might be penalties again?

MARK BOLTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: England have had to acquire some -- well, some staying power as well as fire power for this World Cup. They had to

go to the extra time, of course, as Don mentioned before in the game before. Croatia have had to go to it twice. Satellite systems going down

around the world and possibly phone signals because everyone's texting their friends and family. 30,000 people going back to the bar recharging

their batteries. Thirty million fans expected to be drawing enormous fans in Britain. You can add probably another five million to that with this

extra time to come. And a (INAUDIBLE) reckon them because there's been a couple of million fans worth up in the air in celebration when England

scored. It is a question of average ages now that were in fatigue, not just for the people here and ourselves stood here, but of course the

players because Croatia's average age is 29. England's is 26. Croatia played an extra 30 minutes in the last game and have the terror nerves wise

of the penalties. So as you know, if you go to the gym a lot. As you get older, it gets tougher to recover. That may well go into play in these

next 30 minutes to come. The best wishes we had on the big screen for the 30,000 people was from Prince William. He said football's coming home. A

royal proclamation. We don't know yet whether that's going to come true. It's going to be a fascinating experience.

CURNOW: He's called it. Let's see if he's right. But I mean, do you remember the last time England was this far in the World Cup? And I know

that the last time England won a World Cup was 1966. And that was broadcast in black and white. So at least there's been some development

now. Tell us your memories of the last time. You guys are going to stop talking about this for another generation. Mark.

BOLTON: I spoke to my father this week about it and I asked him where he was at the time and he told me he was with friends and family. These games

are more than just football match. We look back and then we see the retro shorts that is so popular here in England. From '92 in Spain, from '86 in

Mexico, from the World Cup in '90 in Italy. And people wear them for fashion reasons. You think of games and stats and players and goals, but

actually what it is, is a sign post on your life. Isn't it? Where were you at the time? Who were you with? Grandparents, we no longer have them.

We've lost that. Children that we now have who we pass the mythology on to. They're wonderful sign posts in our lives in the Olympics. So

wherever people are tonight, whether they're here in London or across the U.K. elsewhere in the world, out in Zagreb in Croatia, people remembering

this and putting these pictures and memories in their minds and passing them on this folklore. It is one big global party. Of course, England

want to win tonight, but just being part of this stage is absolutely miraculous. It's wonderful.

I remember 1990. I was a lot younger back then. And even though it was hard that time, just to be involved. At the late stages. Just to be at

the heart of it was absolutely sensational. I know people have talked about politics in a fractured nation here. There were lots of problems

around the world. We know that. But today, the attitude of these people is wonderful. A guy let me, in front of them, in the grocery store to get

my groceries. That never happens in London and three people let me out of junctions to get here to highlight this afternoon. It's a different world.

It's wonderful. Let's hope it continues.

[15:55:14] CURNOW: I don't know if anyone's going to be sharing their beer though. And I just want to go back to Zagreb. To you, Hrvoje, do you

think the team is going to get a hero's welcome when they come back? Whether they have the trophy, whether they make it through or not? What's

the love like for all of the boys?

KRESIC: They most certainly will. They most certainly will. Croatians are not (INAUDIBLE) that's around the National Football Association, I

think the last month, especially since --

CURNOW: OK. And Don Riddell, you're still with us. I want to hopefully, there's a wide shot, Don, and we can see what you're wearing. Have you got

a waistcoat under your jacket? There we go.

RIDDELL: Yes, there you go.

CURNOW: You're not the only one, are you?

RIDDELL: No, waist coast Wednesday. I mean, it's quite remarkable. Of course, the football fans wear the same shirt as their team. Obviously, I

can't do that today because I'm at work and I'm especially supposedly impartial which is rather hard when your team is playing in the World Cup

semifinal. But, yes, this has been one of the sort of really cool side busters in this tournament. Gareth Southgate, the manager, a man who

wasn't even supposed to be the manager, he kind of inherited it almost by accident when Sam Allardyce was fired off in just one game. And he has led

the team of course against all the odds to this point of the World Cup tournament.

But he's hard to miss on the touch line because he's always wearing his waistcoat, as we call it in England. We don't call them vests. Just a

waistcoat. And he's there in his tie and his dress trousers and he look so smart and as England have gone on, so people in the U.K. have gone out and

bought waistcoats in support of Gareth Southgate and the England team. I gather the department store Marks & Spencer are running out sales. They're

up 35 percent. This is known as waistcoat Wednesday. Myself and the other English colleagues at work with are all wearing waistcoats today because,

why not?

CURNOW: Why not? And you all look very dapper. I think you should do it more often. Don, OK. We're going to watch the end of this match together

as soon as we go off air. Thanks to all of you for watching. Good luck to both teams. I'm Robyn Curnow. Stay with CNN. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is

up next. Enjoy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(CLOSING BELL RINGING)

[16:00:59] RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Closing bell ringing on Wall Street. Dow Jones Industrials all pretty much almost the lows of the

older markets are down. And the Dow said we'll get the reasons why it's drawing the board of the next hour together.

END

END