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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield
Fatal Fall In Shower Or Did Doctor Kill Wife; Sadistic Child Sex Killer Now Captured. Aired 6-8p ET
Aired July 17, 2018 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
[18:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, "Crime and justice with Ashleigh Banfield" is up right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was it a fatal slip in the shower or was it murder? The millionaire doctor at the center of it all says his wife simply fell in
their mansion`s marble shower. But prosecutors are telling a much different story.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 30 years this family has waited for answers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An 8-year-old girl vanishes, then is found murdered and raped.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hundreds and hundreds of tips over the years.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three decades later, finally, a break in the disturbing case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s just amazing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two children lost their lives.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two young girls mysteriously found dead outside their home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I could not believe it. I`m in shock, in disbelief that these two people little girls are gone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now their mother gives different accounts of the tragic night they died.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JESSE WEBER, HOST, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE: Good evening, everybody. This is "Crime and Justice." I`m Jesse Weber in for Ashleigh Banfield.
A mystery behind a bizarre shower death, might have been busted wide open once again. Prominent doctor Robert Neulander is out of jail after he was
convicted of killing his wife. Prosecutors say he attacked her in their beautiful mansion before finally finishing her off by slamming her head
against the marble shower bench, but the doctor insists that his wife simply fell in the shower. Maybe she even slipped. Problem for him was,
there was blood all over their bedroom. And rumors of the Neulanders` marriage issues didn`t exactly help this case. He was sentence to at least
20 years behind bars if not for the rest of his life. But thanks to one juror`s tricky texting, the doctor`s conviction was just overturned and the
doctor was granted a second chance. And we will be living life as a free man, you see him right there, until his new trial begins.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Neulander, do you have anything to say?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you say about that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you have anything to say to your family? Do you have anything to say? Do you have anything to say at all?
ROBERT NEULANDER, SUSPECT: I just want to be with my family. Please just give us some time. Please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you want to say to your family who have been very supportive?
NEULANDER: I made my comment. I made my comment. Please give us time and space.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WEBER: Pretty incredible stuff. Joining me now, Ian Wheatley, he is the assistant program Director for news radio, WYSR. Dr. Tim Gallagher, a
Medical Examiner and Forensic pathologist, and of course, defense attorney Kenya Johnson. Welcome, everybody. Ian, I want to start with you. Let`s
talk a little bit about who this couple is. They were in a beautiful mansion. I think we have a picture of their house. I want to show how big
this actually was. Do you see this property? What was this couple like in the community?
IAN WHEATLEY, ASSISTANT PROGRAM DIRECTOR, NEWS RADIO, WYSR: Well, Jesse, and thanks for having me on tonight. The Neulander`s were, for the most
part, very philanthropic people, and they were very giving in their community. They had been married for about 30 years and they lived in a
very large 5 1/2 bathroom mansion here in the suburban Syracuse.
And what was probably one of the most shocking sort of developments for the Neulander couple in this story that began to unfold, is that Leslie
Neulander, you know, who is 61 years old when she died, she was a mother, she had several grandchildren, she is a very giving woman, was involved in
the Jewish community here in Syracuse, and a supporter of the arts community here as well. She was also a member of the board of an
organization of the victims of domestic and sexual abuse.
The loss of the Neulander in this community was felt by a couple of different groups. And when it was learned that, as time went on, that she
met her untimely demise at the hands of her husband as the prosecutors alleged in a very violent fashion, it was a bit of a shock to the
community. At the time of her death, it was reported that they had been going through a bit of a trial separation and in a house as large as
theirs, they were able to do that by sleeping in separate rooms. Though there seemed to be some marital tension as previous to this tension Dr.
Robert Neulander, his OB-GYN practice, which she delivered thousands of babies here in central New York, was running into some troubled financial
waters.
WEBER: I mean, you look at their house. Clearly, there was a lot of money there and a beautiful couple. But let`s talk about what actually might
have happened here to Leslie. So the question is, was this an accident in the shower or was this blunt force trauma to the head? Well, here is what
happened. Robert Neulander, there`s a documentary from CBS 48 hours, where it explains a little bit about what happened when he found the body. I
will play it for you right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[18:05:10] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So when you get up to that door, tell us what you do.
NEULANDER: Well again I knock on the door of the glass door and call out to her and I still didn`t hear any response.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. What did you do then?
NEULANDER: I opened the door to see if she is just forgetting time and she is laying on the floor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you see any signs of life?
NEULANDER: I basically went into shock seeing her there, but reached out to her and tried to feel for pulses. Then attempted to resuscitate her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WEBER: She was like a pretty good story except you know who didn`t believe it, the jury. Kenya, I want to talk about that right now so the jury in
his first trial didn`t believe his story, why do you think that was?
KENYA JOHNSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: because the prosecution did a god job in presenting their evidence, however, the doctor has been granted a new trial
so is as if the first trial never happened. And there is no guarantee that the witnesses will still be available from the first trial or that the
evidence from the trial will still be available in the second trial. So, we`re starting all over again. The clock is reset and Dr. Neuman now has a
new hope.
WEBER: New hope, second chance. Not everybody gets that. It is pretty remarkable that he does get that, but I want to talk about the injuries
sustained by Leslie. Because that is really the question here. So, let`s bring back in Dr. Tim Gallagher. So, the injuries, I think we have a
screen of the injuries that she might have suffered. There you go. So she suffered blunt force, they`re saying, trauma to the head, different parts
of the face. Doctor, in your experience, is this something that is consistent with somebody who slips in a shower and bangs their face? Or
does it seem a little bit more nefarious?
TIM GALLAGHER, MEDICAL EXAMINER AND FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Thanks for having me on the show. The images show injuries to both sides of the face
and the head. So, typically, when somebody falls it`s one side of the body or generally to one side of the body. So when you see injuries to the left
and right side of the head, left or right side of the face, your suspicion for this person being assaulted becomes increasingly heightened. So my
suspicion is that based on this picture and based on the evidence that I`ve heard so far, that this has all the hallmarks of an assault.
WEBER: Well, let`s talk a little bit more about that. Because there is a hallway between the bathrooms and the bedroom and this really key, it is --
evidence came forward that there was blood spatter on the ceiling which again, if he were to move her wouldn`t really makes sense how the blood
would get on top of the ceiling area. So, when Dr. Neulander was asked on CBS "48 hours" how is it possible that this blood ended up on the ceiling
when you say you dragged her from the bathroom to the bedroom? Let`s hear what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have any explanation as to how that got on the wall?
NEULANDER: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WEBER: OK, doctor, he didn`t really have much of an explanation. Do you, about how the blood could end up there?
GALLAGHER: Well, it`s a tricky situation. You know, the blood can get there in a lot of ways. You know, typically what it means she was in the
room and while she was in the room, she was bleeding. If CPR was performed on her or if any life-saving maneuvers were performed on her, certainly you
can speculate that perhaps some of the blood could have gotten on the ceiling. It doesn`t necessarily mean that an assault took place at that
location, but it certainly is very, very suspicious for it.
WEBER: Yes. It doesn`t really make a whole lot of sense. We might get more answers in that new trial. Let us go back to Kenya Johnson, so he got
a really lucky thing here. One of the jurors engaged in serious misconduct, if I am understanding and was granted a new trial. What
happened?
JOHNSON: So, one of the jurors received text messages from two people, two family members saying that he is guilty and another one calling Dr.
Neulander creepy. And so these are inappropriate communications that this juror received. And then when she was question by the Judge, the juror
deleted her messages and attempted to cover up her communications outside the courtroom. That is absolutely a cause for a mistrial. That is
alluding to some sort of undue influence, if someone in your family tells you something about a case without having all of the facts as presented in
the trial, there is the question on whether the juror was influenced by her family members or by the evidence that was presented before her.
[18:10:13] WEBER: Kenya, it`s the worst thing that could possibly happen, this is a thing that every attorney worries about with a jury going
forward, communicating with the outside and let alone being influenced about the verdict. Worst thing you could possibly have. Now you see this
replay we`re showing you right here where he is exiting? Back to Ian. Ian, there was a whole issue with his bond. Can you explain a little bit
more about this, how he is free right now?
WHEATLEY: Yes. So what had happened was his son had posted -- he showed up, at least, to pay the million dollar`s bail on his father`s behalf.
Now, we don`t -- we never got the exact resolution of exactly what had happened. But he did leave and had to come back to then go pick up his
father. It`s unclear if the cash amount of $1 million whether that was paid in $10,000 or $100 bills or there was a bank check. It still remains
a bit unclear. But as to where that money came from that was posted for that million dollars, it could be anyone`s guess. It could have been money
from Neulander.
WEBER: The weirdest part about it, this guy had millions and they`re saying the motive for doing this was $500,000 or something for life
insurance?
WHEATLEY: Yes, and it could have come from that and it could have come from a couple of different sources. That is sort of what`s still unclear
at this time. We know Neulander who had a net worth of about $4 million going back to 2012. He has been spending money on defense lawyers since at
least 2013. He regain one of Syracuse`s most prominent defense attorneys who defended him in 2015 criminal trial. And even before that, there was a
legal battle with the healthcare insurer that really ravished Neulander`s once booming OB-GYN practice here in central New York. So, --
WEBER: If you look at the house, if you look at the money, you think that it is all set, but appearances can be deceiving. I know we have to wrap up
quick. But I want to ask one more question of Dr. Gallagher. We believe that Leslie might have suffered from vertigo. Real quick, 30 seconds, what
do you think about that, as a possible cause for why she -- maybe fell and this wasn`t an assault of some kind?
GALLAGHER: Well, vertigo is a situation where you start to become dizzy. And you become dizzy -- increasingly dizzy. People who suffer from vertigo
know when they are about to faint and they tend to sit down and not strike their heads. So, I would say, if she did have vertigo, it probably did not
contribute to her injuries or her situation.
WEBER: We`ll have to see as that new trial comes about. I can`t help, but keep looking at that bench and trying to see if that she fell on that,
perhaps it washed away all the blood. I mean, it is like key piece of evidence right there, an accident or murder happening in the shower. Ian
Wheatley, thank you so much. Dr. Tim Gallagher and Kenya Johnson, stick around.
Up nest, for three decades the disappearance and murder of 8-year-old April Tinsley remain a mystery and the case turned ice cold. But all that
changed today. That is next.
[18:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WEBER: Tonight a big break in a disturbing murder case that is been haunting authorities for decades. 8-year-old April Tinsley first vanished
back in 1988 while she was walking to a friend`s house in her neighborhood. Three days later she reappeared in a rural area miles from her home, but
little April had been raped and murdered. And the killer identified himself two years later in a disturbing message at a nearby barn promising
to kill again. But he wasn`t done taunting investigators. 14 years after that, more messages appeared at the homes of other little locals. Same
things like, you are my next victim. And he delivered it with used condoms and Polaroid`s. Nice.
Police have his DNA for decades, but it didn`t match anyone in their system. S April`s killer remained a mystery.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JANET TINSLEY, MOTHER OF APRIL TINLEY: I`ve been waiting for that one day for a long, long time. Hasn`t come yet. Why? That would be the main
question I would ask him over and over and over again. Why? Maybe someday my why will probably get answered, but then again, I don`t know.
(END VIDEO CLIP) WEBER: But thanks to new advancements in DNA technology, police have
narrowed down their suspects to 59-year-old John D. Miller. And they put him behind bars for April`s murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SGT. RON GALAVIZ, PIO, INDIANA STATE POLICE: From Indiana state police to the family of April Tinsley, we hope and we pray that this brings you some
measure of closure and some measure of peace that you`ve been seeking the last three decades. I know somewhere up there, there`s a little girl
dancing with her angels. She is celebrating. So when you get on your knees tonight and you talk to her in your dreams and prayers, tell her,
they did it. We got him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[18:20:06] WEBER: Unbelievable. Joining me now, Janet Tinsley, she is April`s mother. Matthew LeBlanc, a reporter with the Journal Gazette in
Fort Wayne, Tom Fuentes, CNN senior law enforcement analyst and former assistant director of the FBI and Defense attorney, Kenya Johnson is back.
Janet, I want to start with you, first of all I can`t imagine what you are feeling right now. I know this is so fresh, but what`s going through your
mind right now?
TINSLEY: Well, right now it`s -- you`re like in a cloud. You`re in like a fog. You just can`t believe it`s, you know, finally here. It`s getting
easier to deal with. I`m sure it will hit me soon, but right now I`m numbed, but little bit more every day.
WEBER: Did you ever think this day would come?
TINSLEY: For a while there, no. I thought the way it`s going, it`s been - - it was like 20 years, 25 years. You always kept going through -- things going through your mind like, you know, it`s long enough. It needs to
stop. You thought it`s going to be like one of these other cases. It`s never going to be stopped. It`s going to keep on, keeping on. And then
when it hit 30 and we were told that this year was going to be the year.
WEBER: It certainly it is, it was your year.
TINSLEY: Oh, yes. When they told me that, I said, I hope so.
WEBER: Unbelievable, I really can`t imagine, what you`re going through. And I want you to standby, I want to talk a little bit more with you, but I
want to talk a little about how we got to where we at right now. Talk about the series of messages that were found. And one of them in
particular is from 2004. One of the notes that was found at the Fort Wayne residence. I would like to pull it up if we can and read it to you.
This was one that was found, Hi, honey. I`ve been watching you. I`m the same person that kidnapped and raped April Tinsley. You are my next victim
if you don`t report this to police or I don`t see this in the paper tomorrow or on a local news or I will blow up your house, killing everyone,
but you. You will be mine. I am the same person that kidnaped and raped April Tinsley. You are next. Ha, ha.
Unbelievable. Let us talk a little more about it with Matthew LeBlanc, what is this community been going through? They had been terrorized for
years and now we are finally at where we at today. How much do these notes, and the barn message that was listed had help to where we are today?
MATTHEW LEBLANC, REPORTER, THE JOURNAL GAZETTE: This is a case that shocked the community when it happened. And managed to keep their
attention for 30 years. You know, and when those messages came out, you know, it just brought people back to that place. And people were still
looking for answers, as Janet said. And it`s been interesting over the past few days to talk to people who were associated with the case. And
they all express different measures of relief and surprise. You know, it`s kind of a combination of both.
WEBER: Well, one of the surprises I have is how it took 32 years. So, Tom Fuentes, my question to you is that we know that the DNA from the condoms
that were found outside of the defendant`s trash was the same that was found in those condoms in those special bags. And it`s the same DNA that
was found on this young girl`s body, but why did it take 32 years? What advancements in technology do we have that allowed this to happen today?
TOM FUENTES, CNN`S SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST AND FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: Well, the advancements with forensic DNA, you know, keep
happening. And the microbiologists that work on those programs, the ability to replicate or duplicate the genes, the ability to preserve it,
the ability to extract DNA from older material. All of those things are constantly being advanced. And you know, why it would take this long for
this specific issue, we don`t know at this point, but you know, it is not uncommon that these are continuing improvements in technology.
WEBER: Well, I asked you we have the Golden State killer, the Timothy (inaudible) case in Georgia now this. They keep happening over and over.
Why is it happening so much today? Do you expect that other people will come forward and maybe they will be caught up in unsolved mysteries? And
let us not forget, this man, this suspect, John D. Miller, what`s the likelihood that he might be attached to other crimes now that he is in
custody?
[18:25:04] FUENTES: Well, it`s very likely. He probably did attack other people. They`ll go back and review you know, various unsolved cases to see
if that is true. You know, part of the proliferation of the information is more and more situation where is people are turning in their own DNA to do
genealogy investigations, like the California case. So, somebody can want to trace their ancestry, go to one of the websites, submit their DNA and
that could go, you know, be part of a family of genes that match other people. And in this case, or in the California case happen to be a killer.
So that is part of it. There are more and more people taking advantage of these programs to try to trace ancestry or other things.
WEBER: Now, Kenya, seems like an open and shut case, right? They have him, based upon DNA evidence. They have him confessing. He was brought
forth through investigators, the first thing he said was I know what this is about, April Tinsley. So, he is automatically guilty, right?
JOHNSON: Well, a confession doesn`t automatically mean that he is guilty, but it goes to the weight of the evidence. And the weight shows that why
would someone admit to killing a child in this way and provide such contextual details? It could be argued that this particular killer wanted
to be caught. He taunted the police. This was part of his game in which he terrorized a community, committed these heinous acts and then ultimately
wanted to see if he could get caught. Which he ultimately was caught. But just because there`s a confession, just because there was DNA evidence, it
goes to the weight of the evidence. However, defense attorneys will be arguing that that weight should not be taken with such gravity and there
are inconsistencies with the DNA testing in evidence.
WEBER: It`s a great lawyer answer. Fantastic answer. I can`t wait to see what the upcoming trial is. Although it does seem a little bit like an
uphill battle. But, you know we have Janet Tinsley with us and I am going to bring her back on in a second. She is not the only family member who
was shocked by this news. In fact we have, Theresa Tinsley, the aunt of April Tinsley, who is talking a little bit about when she heard the news.
Let`s play that for you right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THERESA TINSLEY, AUNT OF APRIL TINSLEY: I was watching TV and I got a phone call from my son-in-law that they had found the murderer of April
Tinsley. And he said it`s on the computer -- on the computer and look, it`s all over Facebook. Sure enough, it`s blowing up Facebook. And my
phone started ringing off the hook. We knew, wow, they really did get him. I could not believe it. And it`s just overwhelming. You really don`t know
what to say, you know. It was very emotional.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WEBER: Emotional, overwhelming. I can only imagine what the Tinsley family is going through. So, I want to bring back in Janet, mother of
young April. So what are you going to do now as Mr. Miller goes through the legal proceedings? Are you going to go to court every day? Have you
thought about what that is going to be like, seeing this man face-to-face?
TINSLEY: No, not yet. I missed the first court proceeding. I told them I would stay away. He is supposed to go up again Thursday and I`m going to
try -- I`m going to do my best. I`m going to try to be there. I`m going to wear her shirt and that way I can get an eye-to-eye on him, let him see
me and see what kind of expression face expression he would have when he sees me.
WEBER: You know what, Janet, when he sees you, he is going to see April.
TINSLEY: Yes.
WEBER: So I want you to remember that.
TINSLEY: Oh, yes.
WEBER: When he sees you, he is going to see April. Don`t ever forget that. I`m so sorry for what your family has had to go through. But thank
you so much for joining us, as well as Matthew LeBlanc. Thank you both. I wish you the best of luck.
Meanwhile, tonight, stunning video from Las Vegas where a pair of murder suspects led police officers on a morning chase, speeding through the
streets, dodging oncoming traffic and firing 34 round as the patrol cars that were trailing them. That looks like something out of grand theft
auto. That is until one brave officer fired back right through his own windshield.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Watch out. Shots fired! Shots fired again!
[18:30:00] (GUNSHOTS)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): The other one is up there! The other one is right up there!
JESSE WEBER, ATTORNEY (voice over): Wow! So, the suspects crashed into an elementary school where one of them actually tried reversing into the cop
car, but he was shot dead by an officer. While his partner ran and hid in that elementary school, but only to end up in handcuffs.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WEBER: Next up, on July 4th, Jenna Bodecker`s two daughters died. Police began piecing the case together. Naturally they got Jenna`s account of what
happened. But, the problem is that she has two different stories. That`s next.
[18:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WEBER: We are tracking a disturbing mystery out of Missouri, where two little girls were found lifeless outside their home. Adding to the mystery?
Their own mother. She reportedly told the cops two different versions of what happened before Ireland Autumn Jane and Goodknight Berretta Jane were
found dead. This was just two years and seven weeks old.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TERESA BAILEY, GRANDMOTHER: I cannot believe it. I`m in shock in disbelief that these two beautiful little girls are gone. People should hold tight to
their kids and take care of them and love them because you only get one shot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WEBER: The person who was supposed to be taking care of the girls that night is now behind bars, but not for the death of her daughters. Jenna
Bodecker is only facing charges at the moment for a nasty fight with the girls` father. That happened just hours before they died. But she has told
different stories to different investigators, describing why those girls ended up in the car in the place. And some details just may not add up.
Joining me now, Max Londberg, he is a reporter with the Kansas City Star. Dr. Tim Gallagher, a medical examiner and forensic pathologist is back with
us, as well as defense attorney Kenya Johnson. Welcome back, everybody.
Doctor, I want to start with you. I see all kinds of cases, all kinds of deaths. This one doesn`t make sense to me. How do two little girls die when
there is no cause of death reported? I know that the autopsy reports haven`t been released yet. But it would be one thing if one girl were to
die, but the other one to die at the exact same time, can you explain this?
TIM GALLAGHER, MEDICAL EXAMINER AND FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST (via telephone): It`s very suspicious, you know. It certainly points to an outside force
making this occur, but most likely an assault by somebody. Quite often, we find cases of this type where the mother would smother the baby with the
pillow, leaving no traumatic evidence as to what occurred.
It would be interesting to see what the toxicology report shows. Sometimes, there could be a chemical or there could be a gas like carbon monoxide from
exhaust gas or something of that nature. So, until the report comes back or the toxicology report comes back, it would be kind of difficult to
speculate what happened. But I would suspect either one of those things.
WEBER: We know that they say that it`s not a result of drowning, firearms or road-related issues. They came out with that, authorities have said
that. Now, according to this mother, she was in the car with them, she fell asleep, they were in the car, they fell asleep. When she woke up, they were
dead.
So, when I first head the story, I thought it might have been one of those situations where you leave kids in the car, it`s a really hot day. We know
that the windows were shut. It was really hot, I think 83 degrees. If this was heat-related, wouldn`t she have been affected, too?
GALLAGHER (via telephone): You would think that she would be, you know. Especially adults of that age are more susceptible to that than children of
that age in certain cases. So, you`re right, she would definitely be suffering the same symptoms as they would, which kind of really heightens
my suspicion that this was an assault or this was a deliberate attempt to take their life.
WEBER: You know, we look at the pictures of these beautiful girls. It`s really hard to see. You can only imagine sitting back at home, thinking
about what it`s like to be related to these two and having to go through this.
But I want you to think a little bit more about Teresa Bailey. She is the paternal grandmother of these two girls. She shared some of her comments
about what she had to say. First, she is going to talk about Ireland and then she is going to talk about Goodknight. I want to play some of that
report right there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
BAILEY: I was babysitting her and I got her laughing like that so I recorded it. We played it all the time. I was her best buddy, that was my
girl. She always wanted to drive up and down with her little car or little bike, slide down the slide, playing the pool, play kitchen. I`m just going
to miss her. She was such a joy. Such a joy.
[18:40:01] So full of life and so smart. She was two years old and could hold a complete conversation with you like a 4-year-old. She was amazing. I
called her star child.
Goodknight, you know, she was born on mother`s day. What a great mother`s day gift. Even though I`m the grandma. She was starting to raise her head,
look around and be aware. She would play out here with her bear.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WEBER: So sad. So sad. I want to talk now with Max Lambert, reporter for the Kansas City Star about this. So, Max, break this down for me. What do
we know about what happened with the mother and the father only hours before these two girls died?
MAX LONDBERG, REPORTER, THE KANSAS CITY STAR (via telephone): Sure. According to charging documents, Jenna Bodecker allegedly assaulted her
husband about 12 hours before her two daughters were found dead.
She is charged with three felonies, assault, armed criminal action, and property damage. And according to police records, this fight stemmed from
an argument over infidelity on the husband`s part.
WEBER: But he hasn`t been charged. It should be noted this mother hasn`t been charged in any which way with the death of these two girls. But the
father hasn`t been implicated at all?
LONDBERG (via telephone): That`s correct. The father is not facing any criminal charges but the mother is not facing any criminal charges in
relation to her daughters` deaths.
WEBER: OK. Let`s talk a little bit more about that with Kenya Johnson. I`m confused, Kenya. I went to law school and I`m pretty sure that if the
children die in the care and the responsibility of the parent, shouldn`t she be charged with something? Not murder, but something? They were her
responsibility.
KENYA JOHNSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Jesse, it all depends. Investigators are going to first look to see who was in close proximity of
the two children prior to their death. Obviously that was mother. But we don`t know the facts leading to their death. It has been reported that mom
was fighting with the husband.
Was this possibly self-defense? Was she defending the children in some sort of way from being harmed by the father? It`s very early in order to make a
decision. However, the autopsy and toxicology results are going to fill out that picture much more than the circumstantial evidence tells us.
WEBER: So just to make clear, just because these two children died while they were with the mother in the same car doesn`t necessarily mean that she
is responsible legally?
JOHNSON: It does not. The prosecutors are going to have to develop a timeline and specific actions that they believe occurred to connect the
mother to this death. Just because they were in close proximity does not automatically mean that mom is the murderer.
WEBER: Well, there is a lot to talk about with this case. We have to also talk about the bond and how she wasn`t responsible. So, it`s a very bizarre
and mysterious case about what happened to these two young girls because you hear people dying out of nowhere.
But to have these two girls, one was seven weeks, one was two years old, to die at the exact same time doesn`t make sense. It really doesn`t. We`ll
have more after this short break.
[18:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WEBER: We`re still talking about what happened before when two little girls in Missouri were found lifeless outside of their home, just two years
and seven weeks old. Take a look at them. Really beautiful.
Police say their parents were fighting the night before they were found dead and that`s why their mom is now in jail. But she has given police
different reasons as to why her girls ended up in the car.
My panel is back with me. I want to start with Max Londberg. Max, my confusion with this is, isn`t there a situation where a social worker was
right there, maybe could have seen the girls in the car shortly before this happened but did nothing?
LONDBERG (via telephone): That is what we learned from court records, is that a social worker did respond to the home. She was there about two and a
half hours before the girls were found dead. The call was just an assessment call, not an emergency they were responding to, just general
welfare.
WEBER: Max, do we know who made that call, that hotline tip?
LONDBERG (via telephone): We do not know that. No, we do not. But we know the social worker was at the home, knocked on the door a couple of times,
but told police he wasn`t really paying attention to the vehicle, though it was running.
WEBER: And why did he not do anything? I mean, I`ve heard different accounts of it, but I`m curious what you`ve been hearing.
LONDBERG (via telephone): It`s hard to get into his head. He was quoted in police records telling police that he didn`t want to be considered prowling
a rural area. Prowling, as in looking into vehicles. However, the mother said that she woke up in that car. She found her children lifeless. So it`s
very possible that he missed them when he was out at that home.
WEBER: And nobody from that office has been held responsible? Nobody has been fired, nothing like that? I know it`s so easy to play Monday morning
quarterback, but I`m curious, nothing has been said about them?
[18:50:05] LONDBERG (via telephone): I spoke with the spokeswoman from the Missouri Department of Social Services. She said the incident is under
investigation. It`s still sort of early for them to comment on exactly what happened that morning. But she did say that the social worker acted
appropriately in his response.
WEBER: OK. You know, I have to mention again that the mother here has not been charged in connection with the death of these two girls as of yet.
Nothing has happened there. She is in prison for a different set of charges, for the assault. Kenya, my question is, her bond was $75,000 in
cash. Now, if you read between the lines, what does that tell you?
JOHNSON: That tells you that the judge felt that there was enough evidence to take this case to trial and that enough evidence to convict her. She is
innocent until she is proven guilty. Such a high bond indicates that the judge wanted her to remain in custody and that she may be a threat or a
danger to other people.
WEBER: Kenya, you think this is about the domestic assault, armed criminal action, property action claims, the things that she was actually arrested
for and has nothing to do with the two girls?
JOHNSON: I think the death of her -- the mysterious death of her daughters certainly may have come up in the bond hearing. And while the judge is only
charged with looking at the crime before them, they can also look at circumstantial information and that is certainly enough to raise eyes and
put a brake on whether this person should be immediately let out of jail.
They can always file another bond motion and revisit it at another time once the cause of death has been determined. At this very early stage, this
high bond amount indicates that the judge wanted this defendant to possibly stay in custody for a little while longer during this investigation.
WEBER: She`s going to be in custody. That`s for sure. Dr. Tim Gallagher, I want to bring you back in. We`re trying to understand what happened to
these two girls but the autopsy reports haven`t been released yet. Is that common practice?
GALLAGHER (via telephone): It certainly is. You know, in cases like this especially in pediatric cases, you want to have all the evidence collected
and analyzed before you release that final report especially with litigation pending on it.
So no, I`m not surprised it`s taking this long. Quite often toxicology reports are what hangs up the report the most. It can often take three,
four, five, six, seven weeks to get those results back.
WEBER: You know, what we do know is that the mother said that when she saw these two babies, her daughters, she brought them over to a neighbor, tried
to resuscitate them by throwing water on them or something. That again would indicate to me that this was a heat-related incident.
Is that what you`re getting? Or again, please provide us with some explanation about how two girls who are different ages could die at the
exact same moment. I`m thinking heat but if there`s something else based upon what we know, what do you think?
GALLAGHER (via telephone): It`s again difficult to say, difficult to say without the toxicology report. You know, I am certainly very suspicious of
the mother but that`s just one facet of this investigation. It`s difficult to say with certainty without the report and without the numbers in front
of us.
WEBER: Well, I hope that we get some answers. We really do need those answers. So when those autopsy reports come back, hopefully we can cover it
here and learn a little bit more. I have to sign off.
Max Londberg, thank you so much for joining us and providing some facts about this case. It`s really a really chilling one and it`s so mysterious.
It`s hard enough when you have two young girls that are dead. But when you don`t have an answer why as to this happening. Look at that -- look at the
face of these two girls. Amazing. So sad. Hopefully, we`ll have answers soon.
Ahead, if there is one thing we learned from bear videos, it`s that when there`s something edible, they will not be denied. This little guy and what
he`s after in that car, up next.
[18:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WEBER: One more thing tonight. No one ever said only people get into a life of crime. Take this bear, for instance. Breaking into the car of a
family vacationing in Tennessee and, guess what, it was all caught on video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my god! Get! Get out of there! Get!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look! Can you all see this?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WEBER: Oh, I see that, but I still can`t believe it. You know, when the bear was gone, the family discovered that the bear got away with candy from
another vehicle that wasn`t seen in the video. I wonder if the bear got gummy bears, maybe?
[19:00:02] The next hour of "Crime and Justice" starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): A man believed to have died after falling off his boat but now his wife and her two grown daughters are part of a
murder investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thirty years has been and is ready for answers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An 8-year-old girl vanishes and is then found murdered and raped.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hundreds and hundreds of tips over the years.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three decades later, finally, a break in the disturbing case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s just amazing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The two children lost their lives.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two young girls mysteriously found dead outside their home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I cannot believe it. I`m in shock and disbelief that these two beautiful little girls are gone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now their mother gives different accounts of the tragic night they died.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WEBER: Good evening, everybody. This is the second hour of CRIME & JUSTICE.
I`m Jesse Weber in for Ashleigh Banfield.
Tonight. A dark new explanation for the death of Idaho man. He was thought to have drowned in a lake accident that may have been no accident at all.
Larry Isenberg (ph), vanished on a supposed sunrise cruise with his wife, who told police that he fell overboard fixing the motor before he
disappeared in the water. Lori told investigators she went looking for him but eventually she came home without a husband and Larry wasn`t seen for
two weeks until someone found his body in the lake.
And this was a lake, a body chocked full (INAUDIBLE). This is the active ingredient in Benadryl, at least seven times the recommended dose. And
Lori had told police that he had been sick, but Larry`s friends and doctor disagree. And now police want to talk to Lori again. But guess what, Lori
is nowhere to be found. Now a widow after an allegedly perfect marriage but some say there were marital issues lurking beneath the surface, not to
mention financial issues. But the fact that Lori was fired for allegedly stealing than half a million dollars from the nonprofit she worked for.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KERI THOMPSON, BOARD PRESIDENT, NORTH IDAHO HOUSING COALITION: That betrayal of trust, we are a nonprofit organization. And I think we are all
just determined that one person and their bad deeds will not destroy the organization. We are going to survive this. But it`s important for-to-see
justice to be done. There are consequences to actions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WEBER: Joining me now, Nate Eaton, news director at EastIdahonews.com. Dr. Devi Nampaparampil, clinical associate professor at the NYU school of
medicine. Tom Fuentes, CNN senior law enforcement analyst and former assistant director of the FBI and defense attorney Kenya Johnson.
Thank you so much for everybody for being here.
Dr. Devi, want to start with you. Allergy medication. I have taken it. People have taken it. Can you die from it? In what manner could this have
been taken, put into his system for it to cause a fatal overdose?
DR. DEVI NAMPAPARAMPIL, CLINICAL ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR AT THE NYU SCHOOL OF MEDICINE: Well, the allergy medication, the way it works at first is that
it can dry up some of the secretions. It can help you with allergies and cold symptoms. But if you take too much of it, it can start to affect. You
know, other cells in the body. So basically it can cause your heart to start to beat abnormally. It can also affect your muscles, can affect your
thinking. You could become sedated and confused. And all those things together, if they progress, can also cause you to go into a coma or to
develop seizures.
WEBER: OK but he had no evidence of a stroke. There was no evidence of drowning. Healthy guy. Healthy guy. He was walking a lot with his wife.
Seemed to be in good condition. You ask his doctor, healthy guy. How does this get into his system this much? And again, there was no sign of any of
this, which seems to be a symptom of an overdose.
NAMPAPARAMPIL: Well, there are couple of things to think about. That sometimes, you know, a person might have chronic allergies and take these
medications to try to manage them. Well, in that case, they might develop a tolerance and he see a higher level than you would expect. And the
person who takes them for often than otherwise.
The other thing is that these medications are also used as a sleep aid. If someone is traveling and they have trouble sleeping either from jet leg or
change in environment they might also use these medications. And the third reason they might use it is for motion sickness. So if he had an issue
where he was concerned on the boat, perhaps he might have taken it by itself for that reason.
Now the other thing that can happen is sometimes if you don`t feel the effect right away, you might take more because you are like, I`m not
feeling it. Let me take a little bit more. So I`m not sure if that`s the case here. But those are some reasons why he might have actually taken it
himself.
WEBER: We`ll get into that in a little bit.
I want to bring on Nate Eaton and talk a little bit more about this.
Nate, I am confused. The timing of this doesn`t really a whole lot of sense given what happened here in terms of what she was actually arrested
for and the 40 counts of forgery and one, you know, grand theft. What`s going on here in terms of the timing?
[19:05:12] NATE EATON, NEWS DIRECTOR, EASTIDAHONEWS.COM: Well, it was just a few hours after word got out that she had been fired from her job that
she was being arrested for these 40 counts that Larry and Lori went on this boat and Larry vanished.
So news breaks that Lori has been fired and she`s under investigation. They decide to go on a breakfast cruise. It`s winter. Remember, this was
February. So it`s cold outside. They go on the boat anyway. They say they are going to get breakfast. Larry falls in the water, according to
Lori. She waits two hours to call the cops. When she gets ahold of them they say why did you wait so long? She says I didn`t have my phone. I
though his phone was on him. And she has a bloody nose. She said she got that bloody nose trying to help and trying him get back in the boat.
Lori had worked for a nonprofit organization helping low-income, middle- income people get into housing. And she had arranged -- made an arrangement with the board where there were basically no checks and
balances. And they are alleging that she was able to get $500,000, half a million dollars and from that organization directly to her. That`s the
allegation. That`s how she was charged. And then her husband goes missing within a matter of days.
WEBER: You know, I could speculate. And I could say a lot of things here. But what about the will? Was that the timing of the will also a little
strange here now? I should note, Lori has not been charged. And her daughters have not been charged in connection with this. They are not even
suspect. But they are, this investigation is going and they are part of the investigation. So what`s going on with the will? Let`s talk a little
bit more about that. We are talking about Larry`s will. Because both of them came came into this marriage with other children. But the will, the
timing seems a little precarious.
EATAN: You are right. So, Lori has six children. Larry two children. In January, there were changes made to Larry`s will but by hand, not typed
out, not with some attorney present that we know of, but by hands. Somebody went in and changed the will so Lori`s children got 80 percent of
whatever is left. Larry`s children got 20 percent. This was in the midst of all the fraud allegations, all the issues with Lori`s job and just weeks
before Larry vanished in the water.
WEBER: OK. So let`s talk a little bit more about the forgery and what she has been charged with. There is a series of emails that Lori wrote to her
employer basically confessing to what she did. The first is where she is going to say that she is going to show everything. I want to put that up.
I want to read a series of them for our viewers.
The first one is where she says I will show you -- there you go. I will show you everything I did and I can pay all of it back as soon as I can
sell my home. The next one is talking about her being a horrible person. I`m a horrible person. But please, please, please don`t punish Larry`s
family and his memory with this now.
The next one, I need to be punished for what I did.
And then the last one. Listen to this one. I`ll pay everything back and accept my punishment without causing you the need for long investigations.
Just please don`t punish my family for what I did.
I`m here with Kenya Johnson. You read those messages. Consciousness of guilt, basically confessing. How will this play in her courtroom?
KENYA JOHNSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It could also be viewed as a mother who is looking to protect the family and the reputation of the family. This
case, Jesse, is going fall on accident versus intent. Whether the wife purposefully dosed her husband and gave it to him lovingly with a spoonful
of sugar or whether she hid it in his amaretto on the rocks. The question will be whether she intended to give him a lethal dose. And at this time,
the jury is still out, if I may, to say whether he ingested this lethal dose of this active agent or whether the wife, in fact, intentionally dosed
him with this.
So this is what the whole case is going to fall on. And right now we have a mom that is in crisis mode, and is looking to protect the reputation of
her family at all costs.
WEBER: You know, she is not a suspect. We want to make that clear. She is not a suspect and her children, her daughters are not suspects. But
here is an interesting thing when you read those emails. She talks so much about I don`t want my family involved. I don`t want my daughters involved.
Please don`t do this. Please don`t do this.
The problem is, Tom Fuentes, she went missing. No one knows where she is. She didn`t show up to her court appearance, which means the police have to
start looking into the daughters. And they want to get the cell phone data from the daughters, correct? What are they hoping to get? And I have to
say, is it ironic that she doesn`t want her family brought in, but now they have to be brought in because she`s nowhere to be found?
[19:10:04] TOM FUENTES, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: No, that`s true. And I think in this case, Jesse, the fact that the police have to
treat her as a fugitive and try to track her down, you know, just adds to the appearance of, you know, bad activity on her part. And, again, they
are still a long way, even with all the circumstantial evidence and all the suspicious activity and her financial dealings and the will being changed
and the manner of his death. All of that is still a long way from proof beyond a reasonable doubt in a murder case.
So, they are going to still have a very difficult time to say that she actually killed him. You know, that it was her hand that did it. That she
somehow managed to get the Benadryl into his system so that he would die and she could toss him overboard. That`s going to be very hard.
WEBER: OK. So how do we find her? What are the steps in going after her? I mean, she is not a career criminal for all we know. But she is on her
own. She is out on a limb. What`s it like to try to find someone like this?
FUENTES: Well, typical fugitive investigation. You know, all the measures they would normally do. Most people go contact a family member. It`s very
difficult to get very far if you use a credit card. That can be tracked or use a vehicle. Go to family, friends, colleagues, former neighbors,
anybody because at some point you are going to need money. You are not going to be able to go to an atm machine. You`re not going to be able to
get groceries and get gasoline and all of that without leaving, basically, an electronic trail. And we don`t know how much cash she actually has in
hand to go on the run like this and avoid electronic detection. So it is typically the police will be able to track her down no matter how far she
may have gotten at the moment.
WEBER: So, you are saying it`s only a matter of time.
Let`s go back to Dr. Devi. I`m still confused so help me out. Not a smart guy. You have to help me out here. She - so apparently if you have an
antihistamine in your system, he was saying that he wasn`t feeling well in the days leading up to. Maybe he had the flu. Is this something you seen
in your practice where somebody is sick and they take an overdose of medication? Is this possible? And have you seen somebody in this
situation where they are operating a motor vehicle and on to this? I`m trying to make sense of what is going on. Please help on out.
NAMPAPARAMPIL: Unfortunately, I have seen that scenario. And people don`t take medication on purpose to overdose, right. It can happen accidentally.
But sometimes people take more than the recommended dose or the prescribe dose and something also the levels can be altered if they have been taking
it for a long time. So they built up a tolerance and that then they take more than what they should.
Now, in this case because it was found in the water, sometimes there could be a sampling error where they need to check the levels in a couple of
different areas in the body.
WEBER: It sounds complicated, Dr. Devi. It really does. Thank you so much.
Nate, thank you so much. We appreciate it, both of you.
Next, 30 years after her murder, the case of April Tinsley and who killed her was ice cold until today. The details that have huge break up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:18:01] WEBER: Tonight, a big break in a disturbing murder case that`s been haunting authorities for decades. 8-year-old April Tinsley first
vanished in 1988 while walking to a friend`s house in her neighborhood. Three days later, she reappeared in a rural area miles from her home but
little April had been raped and murdered. And the killer identified himself two years later in a disturbing message at a nearby barn, promising
to kill again. But he wasn`t done taunting investigators. Fourteen years after that, more messages appeared at the home of other little locals,
saying things like you`re my next victim. And he delivered it with used condoms and polaroids. Nice.
Police had his DNA for decades but it didn`t match anyone in their system so April`s killer remained a mystery.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JANET TINSLEY, MOTHER OF APRIL TINSLEY: I have been waiting for that one day for a long, long time. Still hasn`t come yet. Why? That would be the
main question I would ask him over and over and over again. Why? Maybe someday my why will get answered but then again, I don`t know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WEBER: But thanks to new advancements in DNA technology, police have narrowed down their suspect to 59-year-old John D. Miller. And they put
him behind bars for April`s Miller.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SGT. RON GALAVIZ, PID, INDIANA STATE POLICE: From the Indiana state police to the family of April Tinsley, we hope and we pray that this brings you
some measure of closure and some measure of peace you`ve been seeking the last three decades. I know somewhere up there there`s a little girl
dancing with her angels. She is celebrating. So when you get on your knees tonight and you talk to her in your dreams and prayers, tell her,
they did it. They did it and we got him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[19:20:00] WEBER: Unbelievable.
Joining me now, Janet Tinsley, she is April`s mother. Matthew Leblanc, a reporter with the Journal Gazette in Ft. Wayne, Tom Fuentes, CNN senior law
enforcement analyst and former assistant director of the FBI and defense attorney Kenya Johnson is back.
Janet, I want to start with you. First of all, I can`t imagine what you`re feeling right now. I know this is so fresh but what`s going through your
mind right now?
TINSLEY (on the phone): Well, right now it`s - you are like in a cloud. You are in like a fog. You just can`t believe, you know, it`s finally
here. It`s getting easier to deal with it. I`m sure it will hit me soon, but right now it`s like I`m numbed. But (INAUDIBLE) little bit more every
day.
WEBER: Did you ever think this day would come?
TINSLEY: For a while there, no. I thought the way it`s going, it`s been - - well, it was like 20 years, 25 years. You always kept going through -- things going through your mind like, you know, it`s long enough. It needs
to stop. You thought it`s never going -- it`s going to be like one of these other cases. It`s never going to stop. It`s just going to keep on,
keep on. And then when it hit 30 and we were told that this year was going to be the year.
WEBER: It certainly is. It was the year.
TINSLEY: Oh, yes. And when they told me that, I said I hope so.
WEBER: Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Really, I can`t imagine what you`re going through. I want you to stand by. I want to talk more with you.
I want to talk a little bit about how we got to where we`re at right now. You know, we talk about there was a series of messages that were found.
And one of them in particular was from 2004. One of the notes found at the Ft. Wayne residence. I would like to pull it up if we can, and read it to
you. This was one that was found.
Hi, honey. I have been watching you. I`m the same person that kidnapped and raped April Tinsley. You are my next victim if you don`t report this
to police or I don`t see this in the paper tomorrow or on the local news or I will blow up your house, killing everyone but you. You will be mine.
I`m the same person that kidnapped and raped April Tinsley. You are next. Ha, ha.
Unbelievable.
Let`s talk more about it with Matthew Leblanc. What`s this community going through? They have been terrorized for years. And now we are finally at
where we are at today. How much do these notes and the barn message that was listed have helped to where we are today?
MATTHEW LEBLANC, REPORTER, THE JOURNAL GAZETTE (on the phone): This is a case that shocked the community when it happened and managed to keep their
attention for 30 years, you know. And when those messages came out, you know, it just brought people back to that place. And people were still
looking for answers, as Janet said. And it`s been interesting over the past few days to talk to people who are associated with the case and they
all express different measures of relief and surprise, you know. It`s kind of a combination of both.
WEBER: One of the surprises I have is how it took 32 years.
So Tom Fuentes, my question to you is that we know that the DNA from the condoms that were found outside of the defendant`s trash was the same that
was found in those condoms in those special bags and it`s the same DNA that was found on this young girl`s body. But why did it take 32 years? What
advancements in technology do we have that allowed this to happen today?
FUENTES: Well, the advancements with forensic DNA, you know, keep happening. The microbiologists that work on those programs, the ability to
replicate or duplicate the genes, the ability to preserve it, the ability to extract DNA from older material, all those things are constantly being
advanced. And you know, why it would take this long for this specific issue, we don`t know at this point. But, you know, it`s not uncommon that
these are continuing improvements in technology.
WEBER: I`m asking you, we had the golden state killer, Timothy Coggins case in Georgia. Now this. It keep happening over and over. Why is it
happening so much today? Do you expect that other people will come forward and maybe they will be caught up in unsolved mysteries? Let`s not forget,
this man, this suspect, John D. Miller, what`s the likelihood that he might be attached to other crimes now that he is in custody?
FUENTES: Well, it`s very likely. He probably did attack other people and they`ll go back and review, you know, various unsolved cases to see if
that`s true. You know, part of the proliferation of the information is more and more situations where people are turning in their own DNA to do
genealogy investigations, you know, like the California case. Somebody can want to trace their ancestry, go to one of the websites, submit their DNA
and then that could go, you know, be part of a family of genes that match other people. And in this case, or in the California case, happen to be a
killer. So that`s part of it. It is just that there are more and more people taking advantage of these programs to try to trace ancestry or other
things.
[19:25:44] WEBER: Now Kenya, seems like an open and shut case, right? They have him based upon DNA evidence. They have him confessing. He was
brought forth through investigators. The first thing he said was I know what this is about, April Tinsley. So he is automatically guilty, right?
JOHNSON: Well, a confession doesn`t automatically mean that he is guilty. But it goes to the weight of the evidence. And the weight shows that why
would someone admit to killing a child in this way and provide such confessional details? It could be argued that this particular killer
wanted to be caught. He taunted the police and this was part of his game in which he terrorized a community, committed these heinous acts and then
ultimately wanted to see if he could get caught, which he ultimately he was caught.
But just because there`s a confession, just because there is DNA evidence, it goes to the weight of the evidence. Defense attorneys will be arguing
that that weight should not be taken with such gravity and that there are inconsistencies with the DNA testing in evidence.
WEBER: It`s a great lawyer answer. It is fantastic answer. I can`t wait to see what the upcoming trial is. Although, it does seem like a little
bit like an uphill trial.
But, you know, we have Janet Tinsley with us, and I`m going to bring her back on in a second. But was not the only family member shocked by this
news. In fact, we have Theresa Tinsley, the aunt of April Tinsley, talking a little about when she heard the news.
Let play that for you right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THERESA TINSLEY, AUNT OF APRIL TINSELY: I was watching TV and I got a phone call from my son-in-law that they had found the murderer of April
Tinsley. And we said how did you do that? He said it`s on the computer. Get on the computer and look. It`s all over Facebook. And you know, we
got on Facebook and sure enough it`s blowing up Facebook. And my phone started ringing off the hook. So we knew, wow, they really did get him. I
couldn`t believe it. It`s just overwhelming. You really don`t know what to say, you know. But, yes, it was very emotional.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WEBER: Emotional, overwhelming. I can only imagine what the Tinsley family is going through. So I want to bring back in Janet, mother of young
April.
What are you going to do now as Mr. Miller goes through the legal proceedings? Are you going to go to court every day? Have you thought
about what that`s going to be like, seeing this man every day face to face?
J. TINSLEY: No, not yet. I know I missed the first court proceeding because they wanted me to stay. I told them I would stay away. He was
supposed to go up again Thursday and I`m going to do my best, I`m going to try to be there. I`m going to wear her shirt and that way I can get, you
know, eye-to eye on him, let him see me and see what kind of suppression he would have when he sees me.
EATAN: You know what, Janet? When he sees you, he is going to see April.
TINSLEY: Yes.
WEBER: So I want you to remember that.
TINSLEY: Oh, yes.
WEBER: When he sees you he will see April. Don`t ever forget that. And I`m so sorry for what your family has had to go through but thank you so
much for joining as well as Matthew LeBlanc. Thank you both and wish you best of luck.
Meanwhile tonight, stunning video from Las Vegas where a pair of murder suspects led police officers on a morning chase, speeding through the
streets, dodging oncoming traffic and firing, get this, 34 rounds at the patrol cars that were tailing them that will take something out of grand
theft auto. That is until one brave officer fired back right through his own windshield.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shots fired! Shots fired. Shots fired again!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get down!
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[19:30:09] WEBER: Wow! So, the suspects crashed into an elementary school where one of them actually tried reversing into the cop car but he was shot
dead by an officer. While his partner ran and hid in that elementary school but only to end up in handcuffs.
Next up, on July 4th, Jenna Boedecker`s two daughters died. The police began piecing the case together. Naturally, they got Jenna`s account of
what happened. But the problem is that she has two different stories. That`s next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:35:46] WEBER: We are tracking a disturbing mystery out of Missouri, where two little girls were found lifeless outside their home. Adding to
the mystery, their own mother. She reportedly told the cops two different versions of what happened. Before Ireland Autumn Jane and Goodknight
Beretta Jane were found dead, this was just 2 years and 7 weeks old.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TERESA BAILEY, GRANDMOTHER: I cannot believe it. I`m in shock and disbelief that these two beautiful little girls are gone. People should
hold tight to their kids and take care of them and love them because you only get one shot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WEBER: The person who was supposed to be taking care of the girls that night is now behind bars but not for the death of her daughters. Jenna
Boedecker is only facing charges at the moment for a nasty fight with the girls` father, that happened just hours before they died. But she`s told
different stories to different investigators, describing why those girls ended up in the car in the first place. And some details just may not add
up.
Joining me now, Max Londberg, he is a reporter with The Kansas City Star; Dr. Tim Gallagher, a medical examiner, forensic pathologist is back with
us, as well as Defense Attorney Kenya Johnson. Welcome back, everybody. Doctor, I want to start with you. I see all kinds of cases, all kinds of
deaths. This one doesn`t make sense to me, how do two little girls die when there`s no cause of death reported, I know that the autopsy reports
haven`t been released yet. But if one thing -- if one girl were to die but the other one to die at the exact same time, can you explain this?
DR. TIM GALLAGHER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Yes, it`s very suspicious, you know, and it`s certainly points to an outside force making this occur, most
likely an assault by somebody, quite often we find cases of this type where the mother would smother the baby with the pillow, leaving no traumatic
evidence as to, you know, what occurred. It`d be interesting to see what the toxicology report shows. Sometimes there could be a chemical or there
could be a gas, like carbon monoxide from exhaust gas or something of that nature. So, until the report comes back and until the toxicology report
comes back it would be kind of difficult to speculate what happened. But I would -- I would suspect either one of those things.
WEBER: Well, we know that they say that it`s not a result of drowning, firearms, or road-related issues. They came out with that. Authorities
have said that. Now, according to this mother, she was in the car with them, she fell asleep, they were in the car, they fell asleep, when she
woke up, they were dead. So, I -- when I first heard this story, I thought it might have been one of those situations where you leave kids in the car,
it`s a really hot day. We know that the windows were shut, it was really hot, I think 83 degrees. If this was heat-related, wouldn`t she have been
affected, too?
GALLAGHER: You would think that she would be, you know, and adults -- especially adults of that age are more susceptible to that than children of
that age in certain cases. So, you`re right, she would definitely be suffering the same symptoms as they would, which kind of really heightens
my suspicion that this was an assault or this was a deliberate attempt to take their life.
WEBER: You know, we look at the pictures of these beautiful girls, it`s really hard to see and you can only imagine sitting back at home thinking
about what it`s like to be related to these two, and having to go through this. But I want you to think a little bit more about Teresa Bailey. She
is the paternal grandmother of these two girls, and shared some of her comments about what she had to say first, she`s going to talk about
Ireland, and then she`s going to talk about Goodknight. I want to play some of that report right there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAILEY: I was babysitting her and I got her laughing like that, so I recorded it. We played it all the time. I was her best buddy. That was
my girl. She`d always want to drive up and down with her little car, little bike, slide down the slide, play in the pool, play kitchen. I`m
just going to miss her because she was such a joy, such a joy. So full of life and so smart. She was 2 years old and could hold a complete
conversation with you like a 4-year-old. She was amazing. I called her a star child. Goodknight, you know, she was born on Mother`s Day. What a
great Mother`s Day gift, even though I`m the grandma. And she was starting to raise her hand, and look around and be aware. She`d play out here with
her bear.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WEBER: So sad. So sad. I want to talk now with Max Londberg, reporter for The Kansas City Star about this. So, break this down for me, what do
we know about what happened with the mother and the father only hours before these two girls died?
MAX LONDBERG, REPORTER, THE KANSAS CITY STAR (via telephone): According to charging documents, Jenna Boedecker allegedly assaulted her husband about
12 hours before her two daughters were found dead. She`s charged with three felonies, assault, armed criminal action, and property damage. And
according to police records, this fight stemmed from an argument over infidelity on the husband`s part.
WEBER: But he hasn`t been charged. And it should be noted, this mother hasn`t been charged in any which way in connection with the death of these
two girls. But the father hasn`t been implicated at all?
LONDBERG: That`s correct, the father is not facing any criminal charges but the mother is not facing any criminal charges in relation to her
daughters` deaths.
WEBER: OK. Let`s talk a little bit more about that with Kenya Johnson. I`m confused, Kenya, I went to law school and I`m pretty sure that if the
children die in the care and the responsibility of the parent, shouldn`t she be charged with something? Not murder, but something? They were her
responsibility.
KENYA JOHNSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Jesse, it all depends. Investigators are going to first look to see who was in close proximity of
the two children prior to their death. Obviously, that was the mother, but we don`t know the facts leading to their deaths. It has been reported that
mom was fighting with the husband. Was this possibly self-defense? Was she defending the children in some sort of way from being harmed by the
father? It`s very early in order to make a decision. However, the autopsy and toxicology results are going to fill out that picture much more than
the circumstantial evidence tells us.
WEBER: So, just to make clear, just because these two children died while they were with the mother in the same car doesn`t necessarily mean that she
is responsible, legally?
JOHNSON: It does not. The prosecutors are going to have to develop a timeline and specific actions that they believe occurred to connect the
mother to this death. Just because they were in close proximity does not automatically mean that mom is the murderer.
WEBER: Well, there is a lot to talk about with this case. I mean, we have to also talk about the bond, and how she wasn`t responsible. So, it`s a
very bizarre and mysterious case about what happened to these two young girls, because you hear people dying out of nowhere, but to have these
girls, and one was 7 weeks, one was 2 years old, to die at the exact same time doesn`t make sense. It really doesn`t. We`ll have more after the
short break.
[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WEBER: We`re still talking about what happened before when two little girls in Missouri were found lifeless outside of their home, just 2 years
and 7 weeks old. Take a look at them, really beautiful. Police say their parents were fighting the night before they were found dead, and that`s why
their mom is now in jail. But she`s given police different reasons as to why her girls ended up in the car. My panel is back with me. I want to
start with Max Londberg. Max, my confusion with this is isn`t there a situation where a social worker was right there, maybe could have seen the
girls in the car shortly before this happened but did nothing?
LONDBERG: That`s what we learned from court records is that a social worker did respond to the home. She was there about 2-1/2 hours before the
girls were found dead. The call (INAUDIBLE) was just an assessment call, it was not an emergency that they were responding to. It`s just the
general welfare.
WEBER: Max, do we -- do we know -- do we know who made that call, that hotline tip?
LONDBERG: We do not know that. No, we do not. But we know the social worker was at the home, knocked on the door a couple of times but told
police she wasn`t really paying attention to the vehicle, though it was running.
WEBER: And why did he not do anything? I mean, I`ve heard different accounts of it, but I`m curious what you`ve been hearing.
LONDBERG: It`s hard to get into his head. He was quoted in police records telling police that she didn`t want to be considered prowling in a rural
area, prowling, as in looking into vehicles in a space. However, the mother said that she woke up in that car, she found her children lifeless.
So, it`s very possible that he missed them when he was out at that home.
WEBER: And nobody from that office has been held responsible, nobody has been fired, nothing like that. I know it`s so easy to play Monday morning
quarterback but I`m curious, nothing has been said about that?
[19:49:57] LONDBERG: We -- I spoke with the spokeswoman from the Missouri Department Social Services. She said the incident is under investigation.
It`s still sort of early for them to comment on exactly what happened that morning. But she did say that the social worker acted appropriately in his
response.
WEBER: OK. You know, it`s -- I have to mention again that the mother here has not been charged in connection with the death of these two girls as of
yet. Nothing has happened there. She is in prison for a different set of charges, for the assault. But Kenya, my question is, her bond was $75,000
in cash. Now, if you read between the lines, what does that tell you?
JOHNSON: That tells you that the judge felt that there was enough evidence to take this case to trial and that enough evidence to convict her. The --
while the defendant is innocent until she`s proven guilty, such a high bond indicates that the judge wanted her to remain in custody and that she may
be a threat or a danger to other people.
WEBER: So, Kenya, you think this is about the domestic assault, armed criminal action and property action claims, the things that she was
actually arrested for. It has nothing to do with the two girls.
JOHNSON: Well, I think the death of her -- the mysterious death of her daughters certainly may have come up in the bond hearing. And while the
judge is only charged with looking at the crime before them, they can also look at circumstantial information. And that is certainly enough to raise
eyes and put a break on whether this person should be immediately let out of jail. They can always file another bond motion and revisit it at
another time once the cause of death has been determined, but at this very early stage, this high bond amount indicates that the judge wanted this
defendant to possibly stay in custody for a little while longer during this investigation.
WEBER: Yes, well, she`s going to be in custody, that`s for sure. Dr. Tim Gallagher, I want to bring you back in. We`re trying to understand what
happened to these two girls. But the autopsy reports haven`t been released yet. Is that common practice?
GALLAGHER: It certainly is. You know, in cases like this, especially in pediatric cases, you want to have all the evidence collected and analyzed
before you release that final report, especially with litigation pending on it. So, no, I`m not surprised that it`s taking this long, and quite often,
toxicology results are what hangs up their report the most. It can often take three, four, five, six, seven weeks, you know, to get those results
back.
WEBER: You know, what we do is that the mother said that when she saw these two babies, her daughters, she brought them over to a neighbor, tried
to resuscitate them by throwing water on them or something. That again, would indicate to me that this was a heat-related incident. Is that what
you`re getting, or again, please provide us with some explanation about how two girls who are different ages can die at the exact same moment? I`m
thinking heat. But if there`s something else based upon what we know, what do you think?
GALLAGHER: It`s, again, difficult to say, difficult to say without the toxicology report. You know, I`d certainly am very suspicious of the
mother, but that`s just one facet of this investigation. It`s difficult to say with certainty without the report and without the numbers in front of
us.
WEBER: Well, I hope that we get some answers and we really do need those answers. So, when those autopsy reports come back, hopefully, we can cover
it here and learn a little bit more. I have to sign off, Max Londberg, thank you so much for joining us and providing us some facts about this
case. It`s a really chilling one and it`s so mysterious. It`s hard enough when you have two young girls that are dead. But when you don`t have an
answer why as to how this happened -- I mean, look how -- look at that face -- look at the face of these two girls. Amazing, so sad. And well,
hopefully we`ll have answers soon.
Ahead, if there is one thing we learned from bear videos, it`s that when there`s something edible, they will not be denied. This little guy and
what he`s after in that car, up next.
[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WEBER: "ONE MORE THING" tonight, a bear that just can`t satisfy his sweet tooth. The bear in the video just stole candy from a man`s truck in
Tennessee, and now we see it getting into the family car.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my god!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look at this!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, my god, get, get out of there! Get!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need something to throw at it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get -- look, y`all see this?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, shoot, look at this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WEBER: Amazing. Eventually, the bear walked off but not empty-pawed. I wonder if he was trying to get Gummy Bears, maybe? Maybe.
We`ll see you back here tomorrow night at 6:00 Eastern. You can listen to the show any time, download the podcast on Apple Podcast, iHeart Radio,
Stitcher, TuneIn, or wherever you can get your podcast for your CRIME & JUSTICE fix. I`m Jesse Weber in for Ashleigh Banfield. Thanks for
watching. "SOMETHING`S KILLING ME" begins right now.
END
