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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield

Teen To Use Acne Meds As Murder Defense?; Ten-Year-Old Girl Murdered; Highway Horror; Urgent Hunt; One More Thing; Cops Fear Missing Mom Was Abducted; Couple Smiles For Arrest Photo. Aired 6-8p ET

Aired July 18, 2018 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Relax, Obama, relax. OK, "Crime and Justice with Ashleigh Banfield" is up right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She says she forgot where she left her 4-month-old baby.

A mom vanishes.

Search crews looked for more than a day before finding the baby dead.

Tonight there is a recorded phone call reveals shocking new clues.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I will always keep a positive attitude and a smile on my face.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I saw a girl laying right here on the floor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A beautiful college co-ed is stab to death at her own home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I heard a thud -- thud --thud.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now her accused killer. A baby-face 16 year-old maybe planning a bizarre defense. Did his acne medication lead him down a path

to murder?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The same rock that police say came flying off Joe Check`s dump truck --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Traumatic for the families and the officers as well.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 67-year-old Karen Christiansen, her 32-year-old daughter Jenna were headed north on the road.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don`t see this type of accident every day.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The boulder came off, tumbled and struck the family`s car. The women died at the scene.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She has not been on social media for over three weeks now, it`s concerning to us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is this missing woman being held against her will? A desperate search heats up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JESSE WEBBER, GUEST HOST, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE: Good evening, everybody. This is "Crime and Justice." I`m Jesse Webber in for Ashleigh Banfield.

Tonight in North Dakota, a young mom sits behind bars. A young mom who handled a tragedy the best way she knew how, or a cold, careless woman who

let her child die. The body of her 4-month-old son was found in the reeds by a swamp by locals who spent two days looking for him, but while her

community rallied together to find this missing baby, Justice Lang, wasn`t part of the search party, because police say she`d abandoned that baby in

the woods. And before she told police her whole story, saying she simply forgot the last four days, Justice talked to a friend on the phone, and

that story went a little different. Because she seemed to remember all the important parts, like taking baby Tear for a road trip, laying with him in

a field, giving him water when he cried. Realizing he`d become unresponsive, trying to give him CPR, and when she realized little Tear was

dead, she described saying her goodbyes, covering him with brush, and leaving him in the reeds. Justice had four months with her son, but she

could spend 15 years behind bars, because now she is charged with child neglect and manslaughter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Manslaughter, code section .11602, by recklessly causing the death of another human being.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WEBBER: Joining me now, Sheriff Chad Kaiser of Stutsman County, North Dakota. Dr. Tim Gallagher, a medical examiner and forensic pathologist,

and Kirby Clements, defense attorney. Thank you all for joining us. Sheriff, I want to start with you. I can only imagine how difficult this

is, but I want to take a step back and understand where we`re at. The story that she first told is radically different than the story we know

today. Can you explain to us, what was the first story she told and how is it different from now?

SHERIFF CHAD KAISER, STUTSMAN COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Sure. Back in 6/28, she was reported missing. On 6/28, her boyfriend stated that she had

been missing for a while, we put out a bolo for her and her 4-month-old son, to be on the lookout for her, and she was driving a vehicle at the

time, and we also put out the bolo for that vehicle as well. The vehicle ended up being reported stolen out of another community north of us. And

also attempted to locate that vehicle.

Then, at that point, on 7/2 is when the bolo went out, when the boyfriend had called us. She had been missing since the 28th of June. Then on the

6th of July, the grandparents had called us, grandparents from Carrington, North Dakota, which is north of us, the community north of us. She -- they

reported that she showed up around 9:00 at that time. And once she was picked up from Carrington, she was taken to the Carrington hospital.

[18:05:10] WEBBER: Sorry to interrupt. Where was she picked up exactly? Wasn`t she picked up walking along the side of a road?

KAISER: Correct, yes. She was -- on the 6th of July, she was picked up in Honor County, it is called Woolworth area, in a rural area, picked up

walking on the road on the 6th.

WEBBER: And she didn`t have her baby with her, baby Tear, did she?

KAISER: She did not have her baby. She showed up in Carrington at her grandmother`s house without the baby.

WEBBER: Did she mention where the baby was? Did she mention where the baby was when she was picked up?

KAISER: She did not. Once our investigators went up and spoke to her, she stated that the baby was located near a bigger body of water, in that area,

was the last she had seen the baby.

WEBBER: So they pick her up. She says her baby is in the water, but she doesn`t say anything at first when she is picked up. What about what she

is wearing? What are the articles of clothing that she is wearing? Because what we read, it seemed that she had been living out in that area

for days. There was any explanation about how she was living out there?

KAISER: Yes. She had been out there for several days, and she didn`t have any shoes on. She had been bitten up by mosquitos and had a few ticks and

that kind of thing. She also had sunburn. So you could tell that she had been out in the elements for some time.

WEBBER: Sheriff, I got to ask you the million dollar question. Was she high on meth or some sort of other drug? Because that seems to be what the

reports are.

KAISER: Well, the day -- she did admit that, the day she went missing on the 28th, she did admit to using meth.

WEBBER: Ok. Well, here`s the interesting part about this story, from our CNN affiliate, KVLY, they have discussed -- they have reported that Lange

originally had a phone conversation with a close friend. And that close friend reported that she recorded this conversation without Lange knowing

about it. And that story that you just told, which is the latest update is different from what she originally said to the friend. Now, she said to

the friend that she had stopped at a bar in Jamestown. She said that her vehicle was having problems, she got the vehicle fixed. She ended up going

to a field nearby, her baby, baby Tear, she was crying. She tried to help the baby, gave him a little water. Ha a head band, tried to help in some

way when at some point, the baby became unresponsive, she tried to perform CPR and she just gave up. She gave up and she decided to leave the baby.

She said goodbye to the baby. She said her goodbyes. She covered him up as best as she could and she started walking. Now I know we`re still

trying to understand what that phone call is, but that is very different from what we`re understanding today.

KAISER: Yes, and some of that, bits and pieces of that story, there`s reports of, she went to a bar in that Woodworth area, there`s a little town

called Woodworth, that so -- on the 28th, she did go to a bar for assistance, need some oil or something of that sort for the vehicle. Other

than that, just the report of what I just said to you, is what we did receive from her.

Now, on the 7th, bypassing the 6th, when she was -- the mother was found, we did do a search of that body of water, extensive search, with several

people, didn`t come up with anything. We searched again on the 7th, the following day, started early in the morning due to the heat. We started

very early in the morning.

WEBBER: We`re showing pictures of this right now, the search for the baby. This is pretty incredible. And again, I am so sorry for what you and the

community are having to go through to search for such a baby. And I want to talk about baby Tear right now. So let me bring in Dr. Tim Gallagher

real quick. And Sheriff, I`m going to get back to you in a minute.

Doctor, do we know the cause of death? I know the autopsy report hasn`t been released yet, but I believe the first inclination was malnutrition.

What are your thoughts?

[18:10:06] TIM GALLAGHER, MEDICAL EXAMINER AND FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, thanks for having me on the show again. It would really depend on if the

baby was healthy beforehand. I believe that a child of that age can withstand not being fed for 36 to 48 hours. So, I would not hang my hat on

it being malnutrition right now. I would look for other causes of death before I settle on that. You know, she did say she was able to give the

baby water, because dehydration would be another thing that would be on my top priority when looking for the cause of death in someone of this age, in

this environment, but she did say the kid was able to drink water. And I don`t think that dehydration would play a lot into it. So as far as

dehydration or malnutrition goes, I would place that at this pint very low on my suspected diagnosis of his death.

WEBBER: Leaving a baby in the reeds. I can only imagine the horror of that. We are showing what a beautiful baby this was. It`s horrible to

think about it. We`ll learn more details as they come forth. Kirby Clements, I want to bring you in. So, she, the mother has been charged

with manslaughter and neglect of a child. How do you defend this? I mean, I was always taught, I am an attorney that if the child is in the care and

custody of the parent, she is automatically responsible if the child dies in that fashion? How does she mount the defense?

KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think it`s going to have to go down to whether she was under the influence of drugs, and if she is

indicated that she went to a bar and took what she believe to be meth. So, that is problematic, but in one can suggest that it was introduced to her

in voluntarily or that she didn`t know that it was something else other than meth, she thought she was taking meth and someone gave her something

else and that accounts for her to missing the last four days and that when she came to, the child was pretty much about to pass away at that point in

time, that would probably the best defense, but at this point, given what she said to the police and that recorded phone conversation, she has made

her defense extremely difficult. Because it sounds like she was on a meth binge and the child died and then she just wandered off. That is what it

sounds like, but I would probably go for saying that someone gave her something other than meth at that bar.

WEBBER: Not going to lie to you, seems like a bit of a stretch, we have to see as more details go, but it is a defense to go with. Sheriff, I want to

bring you back in. Meth in the community, is this a big problem in the area? Do you see these kinds of situations happening? And I hate to say

it, with parents who are neglectful of children because of drugs?

KAISER: Yes, meth is prevalent in this area, like I`m sure it is everywhere. Meth and marijuana are both pretty prevalent in the area.

WEBBER: And what do we know about her fiance, her boyfriend Jason Wild? He -- as you said was the one who had a fear that she went missing with the

baby. Where is he? What`s his connection to this? Can you explain a little bit more to our viewers?

KAISER: Well, he also was arrested. He had -- as long as well as she did too, she had several warrants from different areas, and he also had several

warrants in different areas. And is right now in the Stutsman County Correctional Center.

WEBBER: Kirby, what is going to happen to this mother moving forward? I know there`s an issue with the bond. But real quickly, we have 30 seconds

or so. What`s going to happen to her moving forward?

CLEMENTS: What is going to happen right now, she is going to have to get a lawyer appointed to her if she can`t afford one. She is probably given the

financial situation probably not going to be able to make bail, so she is going to -- I would imagine stay in custody for the next -- well, until her

case was resolved, until she makes bail. But at this point, she has to get counsel appointed, maybe get an evaluation. But that is about all she can

do. It`s going to be the wait and see game. Maybe her lawyer will start talking to the prosecutor about some sort of deal early on.

WEBBER: And I am sure waiting for that autopsy report, exactly how the baby died will may be provide some more answers about a potential defense

at some kind, but it`s not looking so good for her. Sheriff, I want to thank you for coming on, I know how difficult this is. What a case must be

for you to cover. We wish you the best of luck as you continue to pursue this, thanks so much for coming on.

All right, next, he is staring squarely at a murder charge in the brutal stabbing death of a college co-ed, but this baby-face 16-year-old and his

attorney have hinted at a strange defense, that his acne medication may somehow be to blame.

[18:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WEBBER: You know, for most people, acne causes skin irritation or even unhappy year book photos, but in Colorado, acne may have led to the violent

death of a 20-year-old girl. Or at least that is what attorneys for her suspected killer have reportedly suggested in court. Acne medication, that

is. Aidan von Grabow was just 15, when police say he broke into Makayla Grote`s house and stabbed her to death. A girl with her whole life ahead

of her and big dreams of being a professional race car driver.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[18:20:07] MAKAYLA GROTE, VICTIM: Hello, my name is Makayla Grote. I`m 19 and I drive modified out of Long Mont, Colorado. On the track, I race my

competitors clean and I always clear my head, before each race, removing everything that has happened prior and focusing on what`s right in front of

me. Off the track, I will always be the first to offer help to a fellow competitor and I will always keep a positive attitude and a smile on my

face, no matter what`s happened on the track.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WEBBER: But Makayla will never race again. And police say Makayla may not even had been the target that night. In fact, they say Grabow, planned to

kill her sister, who is reportedly one name among many of his so-called death list. Fortunately, he was arrested before he could claim any more

victims. And he was charged with first-degree murder and three charges of attempted murder, but he just pled not guilty to those charges, and his

attorneys have hinted at a bizarre defense, that Aidan might have suffered from involuntary intoxication, caused in part by acne medication.

Joining me now, Jenna Ellis, attorney and host at KLZ radio, Dr. Tim Gallagher is back with us, a medical examiner and forensic pathologist, and

also back with us again, defense attorney Kirby Clements.

Jenna, I want to start with you. How did this all start? I understand it was over the span of a two day disturbing period. So take us back there

and try to understand what happened.

JENNA ELLIS, ATTORNEY AND HOST, KLZ RADIO: Yes, this actually even started a month prior with von Grabow actually contacting Nicole, who is the little

sister of the 20-year-old victim. And he had sent her very disturbing snapchat messages, according to police reports, and indicating that he

actually had this so-called death list.

WEBBER: You know what, Jenna, sorry to interrupt. We have those snapchat messages. I want to show those to our viewers if we can. I want to pull

those up, because it`s one thing to talk about them, but let`s read them out. So these is some of them. It is not pretty for people on this list.

The rules are one, pick a target, two, get info on the target, three, eliminate the target.

Also if you tell anyone, I`ll make sure you`re next on the list. She says, just tell me what could happen to and that part we can`t see, she hasn`t

done anything wrong. What does he say? A 13-inch steel hunting knife. That is just the start. Aidan says, what would you do to keep your friend

alive? I know that you know. She responds, anything. He says, really? Yes. I`m done playing this stupid game with you. And he says, sadly, it`s

not a game. Jenna, please, I am sorry to interrupt, but those we had to tell those snapchat messages. Please continue.

ELLIS: Absolutely. So this, of course then is reported to police and the police actually interviewed Von Grabow and he said that he didn`t really --

he wasn`t really serious with those messages and was just using that to relieve stress. The report also indicates that he had been diagnosed with

severe depression, and although it`s unclear how long he might have been taking the acne medication, along with his anti-depression medication, that

is now what defense attorneys are asserting may have been the cause of these particular messages as well as what led up to the incident in

November, which started, as you said, Jesse, as a two-day event. First, he had threatened his parents with felony menacing, which resulted in a phone

call to police. And then the next day --

WEBBER: Wait, Jenna, sorry to interrupt you again. Wasn`t there a package delivered at the house that had a whole bevy of things for him?

ELLIS: There was. And it was one of his grandparent who is actually received the package and looked through the contents and there were a lot

of knives as well as some other disturbing objects, that really concerned the grandparents and that is what also led to his parents ultimately

questioning him about this, according to police reports, and then led to Von Grabow apparently swinging a knife at his mother, who called the

police. And they responded to that potential felony menacing incident.

So that happened the day before, unfortunately, 20-year-old Makayla Grote of Long Mont, Colorado, was found stabbed in the head, as well as other

areas of her body, and she died a few hours later at the hospital. And then Von Grabow was arrested for that and even though he is just 15, at the

time of the alleged incident, he is being tried in Colorado as an adult.

WEBBER: OK. So let`s talk a little about the injuries that she sustained. Let us bring back in Dr. Tim Gallagher. You see that autopsy report there,

those are severe, deep wounds. From your perspective, what do you make about that?

GALLAGHER: Well, those wounds look like they would definitely be fatal, certainly instantly incapacitating.

[18:25:00] WEBBER: By the hairline, right by the hairline, look at that one.

GALLAGHER: Say it again.

WEBBER: The one right by the hairline, right into the forehead.

GALLAGHER: Right. That one, apparently, was just a three-eighths of an inch deep, not very deep, so that it reflected off the skull, did not

penetrate into the brain. The one into the chest is right over the area of the heart, and that looks like it may be the fatal wound. If that is the

fatal wound, it`s certainly is unrepairable and instantly fatal.

WEBBER: OK. So we know that Michael Brown, who is a neighbor, he reported what he heard during this attack. I think we have that sound bit. I want

to play that right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL BROWN, NEIGHBOR, WITNESS: I heard a thud, thud, thud. I opened up my living room door, and look out here and saw a girl laying right here on

the floor. She wasn`t responding. I yelled, are you OK? And I screamed for help. A man with a motorcycle jacket, motorcycle helmet, gloves, and a

knife in his hands, was coming down the stairs, and he saw me. I backed up from her. When he saw me backing up, I ran further, because he started

coming after me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WEBBER: Wow. Did you hear that? That is an eyewitness account of the actual killing. Now, this death list that they found, investigators,

wasn`t the only thing they found. We have a list of everything that was found in connection with this crime. I want to pull that up right now so

our viewers can see this. Because it is quite a list. Molotov cocktails, knives, dark clothing, boots, face mask, goggles, duct tape, love the way

he spelled it there, head lamp, flashlight. Now a hatchet. He wanted a hatchet, but I don`t think he found one. They didn`t find that on the

property. Bleach, gloves and a map. Jenna that is quite the laundry list of things. And top of the fact we know a little bit more about this man, I

don`t even want to say man, he was 15 years old at the time. The question is, what do we know a little bit more about his behavior and his demeanor,

especially in light of this list?

ELLIS: Yes, not only the list that is certainly disturbing as well as the snapchat messages, but also when he was being interviewed by police, his

dad was there and made a reference to two cats that had been killed on their property recently. And according to the police report, at that time,

Aidan just looked over at his dad and smirked. And so the attitude there according to police report was very non-challan and really showed no

evidence -- remorse or anything other than just a steely exterior. So police reports have also indicated that the erratic behavior began about

the time that he was diagnosed with severe mental health issues.

WEBBER: OK, Jenna, so glad you brought that up. I want to bring on Kirby right now. OK, Kirby, I`ve heard of involuntary intoxication, I heard it

with alcohol. I heard it with drugs. Acne medication? There`s no way that this can possible fly in a courtroom.

CLEMENTS: Actually, it will fly very well. Because we have a history here. I don`t think this is really involuntary intoxication, it is more of

a combination of his major depressive disorder, the antidepressants that he was on, coupled with the acne medication. All these things were going on,

but if you look at the history, he`d been expelled from school or suspended from school for threatening kids. His pattern leading up to this clearly

showed someone who was mentally unstable. And the thing with medication, you got to understand, it`s not like you take a pill and you`re OK. He`d

been on the meds for about four weeks --

WEBBER: But a person can create a death list that are on this medication. That means, oh, they`re on it, it might excuse an attack, but to create a

death list and have all this behavior beforehand, the snapchat threats, really?

CLEMENTS: That is all part --

WEBBER: When does it start? It excuses behavior for a long period of time?

CLEMENTS: No, I`m not saying that it excuses his behavior. And explains his behavior. That is the difference, we`re looking to figure out, how did

this happen. And we had someone with major mental illness, diagnosed recently, given medication that probably hadn`t been adjusted properly at

this point in time, coupled with the acne medication and you look at his aberrant behavior and when it started and it started around the same time.

So you have a direct link. This is not one of those case where we say, oh, it must be this. This is one where the history clearly shows it. And

quite honestly, the police probably should have done something when they found that first list, as opposed to accepting his excuse he gave. I`m not

blaming them, for what happen, but there was plenty of time to intervene given all the warning signs.

WEBBER: Dr. Gallagher, is it possible that acne medication, whether alone or combined with an antidepressant could be a way of involuntary

intoxication here? Could it contribute to what happened, or is this just a stretch by his defense attorneys?

GALLAGHER: Excellent question. You know, the acne medication has been known to create suicidal ideations and depression. There is no history of

the medication causing violent behavior that includes homicide. So I would certainly exploit that as prosecution.

WEBER: All right. Well, we`ll have to see. This is a case to follow on many different levels. Jenna Ellis (ph), thank you so much.

OK, Washington, D.C. police have released disturbing new surveillance video as they search for the killer of a 10-year-old girl. Four men jumped out of

a car and began firing shots in all directions, into a crowd of people, striking Makiyah Wilson in the chest.

Makiyah was rushed to the hospital where she was later pronounced dead. Four other people were shot and wounded. Makiyah loved art and she loved

puzzles. You know what, she was going to enter the fifth grade. But that`s not happening anymore. Tonight, police are asking for your help finding

these gunmen.

Up next, when over a half-ton boulder rolled out of the back of a truck, Karen and Jenna Christiansen found themselves right in its path. Now the

driver of the truck is behind bars. We`ll break it down, after this.

[18:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WEBER: You`ve probably been in their position before, driving on the highway with a giant truck that`s transporting heavy materials, and you`ve

probably imagined the scenario when those materials fall off the truck and you have to swerve to save your life.

But Karen Christiansen and her daughter, Jenna, didn`t survive. That`s when a boulder fell off the truck passing by. A three by three-foot boulder that

weighed about 1,100 pounds. It managed to bounce off the center line before it slammed into their car. And polie say it wasn`t a freak accident that

the boulder fell off that truck.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MITCHELL SCOTT, CHIEF, ROSEMOUNT POLICE DEPARTMENT: It`s evident to us that it was not secured in the back of the vehicle. You know, it`s very

traumatic for the families and the officers as well. It`s not like something -- we don`t see this type of accident every day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WEBER: Thank goodness we don`t. Because this, it took four firefighters to get that boulder off the car. And it took three days to track down the

truck driver who allegedly kept on driving when his cargo took the Christiansens` lives, cargo that he`s required by law to secure. Now, he`s

charged with vehicular homicide, and he faces 40 years behind bars.

Joining me now, Andrew Lee, co-host of "Justice & Drew" on KTLK-AM 1130. Dr. Tim Gallagher is back with us, medical examiner and forensic

pathologist, as well as the great defense attorney, Kirby Clements. Welcome back, everybody.

Andrew, I want to start with you. What do we know about the suspect here, Joseph Paul Czeck? What do we know about him? Did he have any violation in

the past? What do we know about this man?

ANDREW LEE, CO-HOST, KTLK-AM 1130 (via telephone): Joseph Czeck, he actually owns the business that was hauling those boulders of Czeck

Services out of Inver Grove Heights.

He`s a 33-year-old Heights-Eagan (ph) man, as you mentioned, facing multiple felony charges. He did leave the scene after the unstrapped

boulder, the unsecured 1,100 pound boulder, fell out of his struck and killed those women.

Investigation revealed that the truck driver, he pulled over about a mile later, pulled into a driveway, and then after the accident, started

strapping down the remaining boulders in the back of the truck.

So it certainly appears as if he was aware that this happened, aware that he was transporting these boulders in an unsafe manner, and then stopped.

Police say they never got a report of the accident from the suspect in this case.

WEBER: So that photo that we`re showing of the truck was right after the boulder fell off. You can probably imagine, that`s an 1,100 pound boulder.

If it fell off the truck, you probably would know that that would happen. I think it slammed into the ground and left a mark at one point. It is such a

heavy object there.

Let`s talk to Dr. Tim Gallagher a little bit about it. Can you explain the awful series of events about how this actually happened in terms of the

death of these two women? It`s not like it killed one woman. It killed both of them. So, was it the perfect mix of events, the speed, the proximity of

the cars? How did this happen? How did it inflict these injuries?

GALLAGHER (via telephone): Well, it certainly is a traumatic sequence of events.

[18:39:55] You know, I could imagine the boulder falling off of the back of the truck and then striking the automobile, killing possibly both of

them at the same time, or it may have incapacitated the driver to where she may have crashed and killed the passenger.

You know, certainly tragic and certainly the Florida Highway Patrol or the investigating authority would have more information about that, but that

1,100-pound boulder can certainly inflict fatal injuries onto people with very little effort.

WEBER: Do you happen to know if it would cause immediate death, if it would be suffering, is there any way to be able to tell from that?

GALLAGHER (via telephone): It certainly would suggest that it would cause immediate death. It looks like. If it struck the chest or the head of one

or both of the victims, immediate death would certainly be one of my top concerns.

WEBER: Here`s what I want to do. I want to talk about what the law is here. So, Rosemount Police Chief Mitchell Scott has talked about what the

law is. Let`s play that for you right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT: You`re required by law to have whatever you`re hauling secured in your vehicle. So if you have a pickup truck and you have a fifth wheel or

like a lawn mower or a TV, UTV inside, you`re responsible to make sure it`s secure. Things happen out of our control all the time. So take the extra

time to make sure things are secure.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WEBER: Well, that`s the law. Kirby Clements, what`s his best defense here? Let`s start off with the vehicular homicide. What`s his best defense moving

forward here because it appears based upon the facts that he knew that this boulder fell off and that he should have attached it.

KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the main defense in this matter would be whether there was some sort of a strap failure, that is he secured

the boulder, he secured the load, and maybe the straps -- what he strapped down failed.

I used to load freight when I was in law school and college. And sometimes you can have a failure of the things that you use to strap freight down

with. So that boulder could have been strapped down, it broke free or the strapping gave way and it flipped off, and he didn`t know that there was an

accident.

In fact, that`s really the only defense that he can go forward with, because he cannot knowledge knowing that it fell off and crashed into a car

and that he did nothing to help.

WEBER: It kind of ties into the other thing that he`s charged with, leaving the scene of a crime. Never a good thing. So, how is he going to

say, you know what, I didn`t know that the boulder fell off, this 1,100- pound boulder off the back of the truck? How is he going to say that he didn`t know that?

CLEMENTS: Because he drove over. From what I gathered from the evidence, it appears that he drove over some railroad tracks. So he can say all the

jostling that occurred or happened when he went over the railroad tracks.

He didn`t know that the boulder fell off at that point in time. It`s not like he would have felt the truck get lighter. He just didn`t know. I mean,

that`s really a strap failure and that he didn`t know.

WEBER: But he knew how many boulders were in the back of the truck. And he secured it. We saw the photo. There was one missing. That`s going to --

maybe an uphill argument.

CLEMENTS: That`s true.

WEBER: We`ll have to see. All right, anyway, a beautiful, young, Montana woman missing for more than a month. And now police say her sudden silence

on social media is a telling sign that she may be in danger. That story, when we return.

[18:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WEBER: We are tracking the urgent search for a missing young woman in Montana. The 23-year-old beauty, who police fear is being held against her

will. Jermain Charlo was last seen over a month ago walking in a residential neighborhood after going bar-hopping with friends.

It`s a typical night for a 23-year-old, with a 23-year-old`s online presence. Friends and family tell police that Jermain loved posting to

social media, but all of her accounts have gone dark, which has made investigators draw dark conclusions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUY BAKER, DETECTIVE, MISSOULA POLICE DEPARTMENT: The fact that she has not been on social media for over three weeks now is concerning to us,

because her pattern of life prior to that was that she was on there frequently and daily, and she hasn`t been. So she`s somewhere where either

her ability to move about freely or have access to the internet is being restricted, but something is going on that concerns us because of her lack

of activity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WEBER: Joining me now, former NYPD sergeant and law enforcement trainer Joseph Giacalone. And back again, defense attorney Kirby Clements. OK, now,

I want to start with you, Joseph. First, can I say, thank you for your service? Is that the right way of saying it?

JOSEPH GIACALONE, FORMER NYPD SERGEANT, LAW ENFORCEMENT TRAINER: That`s great. Thanks.

WEBER: OK, how do they go about finding this woman? What is the steps, the coordination? I think it is between the police and the sheriff`s office.

How does this work?

GIACALONE: Well, they`re going to be looking at basically the three -- what I call forensic (INAUDIBLE): cell phone records, internet records, and

video surveillance.

WEBER: Of her?

GIACALONE: Of her, yeah. Her last whereabouts. I mean, this is where they will try to pin it down because the video surveillance could play a pivotal

role in this case. So, she was in a couple of these bars, she was at this store, this Farmers Market, so to speak. So there could be lots of videos,

a bank ATM, anything that could give them a clue of what happened.

Maybe she was abducted off the street or what have you.

[18:49:59] Remember, we have a story that said her friends dropped her off too. They can then verify that too.

WEBER: They say that they have tracking down persons of interest. What does that mean?

GIACALONE: Well, they have probably a few leads from just about what I was talking about before. So maybe she met somebody in the bar, maybe she was

walking with them, maybe she got into a car. So these are just some of the things that they have to look at. It`s going to be a puzzle.

WEBER: Correct me if I`m wrong, but timing is critical here. Right? It is the 48 hours, 72, the first -- what is the timing there that we need to see

some action?

GIACALONE: I will say the first 48 hours. We actually refer to it like the first hour of an investigation, how close that person was to where they

were looking is the most important part it. So they`re going to have to try to piece this together from that moment that she was last seen and see what

can develop.

WEBER: Listen, we are in 2018, I get social media, I do it myself. Is it fair to say that because she has been inactive on social media, there`s

something nefarious going on?

GIACALONE: It`s very bad. I mean, anybody with a 23-year-old daughter or around that, I mean, they`re glued to these phones and if they were doing

this before then all of sudden that stops, that`s not a very good sign.

WEBER: Isn`t it amazing, social media, we want them to be more on it right now. We`re encouraging it a little bit more.

GIACALONE: Yes. And the police when they are doing their press conference don`t sound so, you know, hopeful in this either.

WEBER: Kirby, I want to go to you now. If she is being taken under duress, if someone is holding her, what is the best legal option for that person?

What would you advise them to do? What is their best -- moving forward -- because they would be a defendant in an upcoming case. Kirby, I give it to

you. What would you say to them?

CLEMENTS: I would tell them that they need to limit their liability by letting this woman go. They can`t harm her because that will increase the

punishment. You`re not going to kill somebody because there is no statute to limitation.

So if you`ve broken the law already, let`s not make it worse. Let`s make it better. Get her somewhere safe. Let her go. Go get a lawyer and turn

yourself in. That`s the easiest way for this to end better for everyone.

WEBER: Because the charges and the outcome could be a whole lot worse. So Kirby, I hope everyone is listening. I hope everyone is listening out

there. But I want to talk a little bit more with you, Joseph, about this.

So, there`s a problem here, I know it. People come forward with fake tips. You see this. They see it on TV. How do you weed out fake information, fake

news? How do you weed it out from here?

GIACALONE: Sometimes it`s not so much fake to throw you off. In investigation, it is just that people are trying to help and they may

inundate you with all kinds of things like, I think I saw her at a car wash somewhere in Seattle. I mean, these are the things that can now eat up a

lot of the personnel and the time to do this.

So as a former law enforcement officer, you have to try to weed through some of those tips that you get because you never want to turn the public

off and say, all right, stop.

WEBER: Right.

GIACALONE: You want them to use the tip lines. So we want them to come forward with the information. And you as a police have to try to like

decipher about what is the good one like, what has said has meat on it, where you can actually go out and look for something.

WEBER: And real quick, we`re talking about social media. Can it be a really useful tool right now to track her and find her?

GIACALONE: Absolutely. Social media is the biggest investigative tool since DNA, as far as I`m concerned. It puts you at locations. It helps you

tie them down.

WEBER: So basically what you`re saying is, if anybody has information, come forward and use social media if possible as well?

GIACALONE: Absolutely. Especially with all the things like crime stoppers.

WEBER: Pretty amazing. I hope that they find her. I hope we get an answer to this because it`s a really sad situation. As soon as we have an update,

we will let you know.

Now, if you`ve been on the run from police for two months and finally they nab you after a car chase, would you be all smiles? We`ll tell you about

this cheesy pair, next.

[18:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WEBER: One more thing tonight. It`s not every day that a high-speed police chase ends with a group photo that looks more like a yearbook class

picture.

Suspects Matthew White and Amber Taynor were on the run in a stolen vehicle in Florida. When they were caught and handcuffed though, one of the

arresting officers had this photo taken with the couple. Isn`t that adorable? Look, they`re nodding in approval as they look at the snapshot of

an officer`s phone.

Unfortunately for them though, shortly after, those smiles were nowhere to be seen in their mugshots. I wonder why. Charges against White included

grand theft of a motor vehicle and evidence tampering. He and Taynor were charged with drug possession. Who said crime can`t be a little fun?

The next hour of "Crime & Justice" starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): A landscaper turned serial killer?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): Some blood inside the van.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): Did this man dismember numerous bodies?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): He`s just a regular guy out working in his yard.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): And hide them in flower pots behind home in the area.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): Oh, shoot. You know, it hit me hard.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ll always keep a positive attitude and a smile on my face.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I saw a girl lying right here on the floor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): A beautiful college co-ed is stabbed to death at her own home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): I head a thud, thud, thud.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): Now, her accused killer, a baby-faced 16- year-old, may be planning a bizarre defense.

[19:00:01] Did his acne medication lead him down a path to murder?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): The same rock that police say came flying off of Joe Czeck`s dump truck.

SCOTT: Traumatic for the families and the officers as well.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 67-year-old Karen Christiansen and her 32-year-old daughter Jenna were headed north on the road.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don`t see this type of accident every day.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The boulder came off, tumbled, and struck the family`s car. The women died at the scene.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That she`s not been on social media for over three weeks is concerning to us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is this missing woman being held against her will? A desperate search heats up.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JESSE WEBER, HLN HOST: Good evening, everybody. This is CRIME & JUSTICE.

I`m Jesse Weber in for Ashleigh Banfield.

Tonight, more dark discoveries in the dirt. The possible remains of even more victims of the suspected serial killer. Police say they found

something new every day they spent digging at a property where Bruce McArthur once worked. The 66-year-old former landscaper, you see him right

there, whose resume includes him being a Santa, is now behind bars for allegedly killing several local gay men.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SGT. HANK IDSHINGA, TORONTO POLICE SERVICE: Bruce McArthur is charged with and alleged to have committed eight murders.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WEBER: Wow. And police say that number will just keep on going up as they keep linking McArthur to buried body parts. They found mostly these

recently in flower pots and the ravine behind an old client`s house. They are following the lead of cadaver dogs, whose noses reported likely picked

up even fragments of human remains. And they just spent the last nine days sifting through the soil there, but it`s not the only place they`ve been

looking.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

IDSHINGA: We are investigating some 30 properties. We believe we have recovered more remains. We believe there are more remains at some of these

properties that we are working to recover.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WEBER: Wow. Incredible.

Joining me now, Wendy Gillis, prime reporter with the Toronto Star. Joseph Giacalone, former NYPD sergeant and law enforcement trainer, and defense

attorney Kirby Clements.

OK, Wendy, want to start with you. Guess, the first question is, who is Bruce McArthur? Can you describe who this guy really is? What do we know

about his background?

WENDY GILLIS, PRIME REPORTER, TORONTO STAR: Well, I mean, as you said, he`s currently a 66-year-old man. He has worked in all kinds of different

capacities throughout his lifetime. He was a Santa, as you mentioned. He worked as a traveling salesman all across Ontario, the province, here, and

then most recently he worked as a landscaper. He worked at properties sort of all across the city, some pretty tony properties as well. And we also

know that he was formerly married -- he was married to a woman and has two children, and later came out sort of in midlife as gay.

WEBER: OK. So we know that, but he`s had brushes with the law before, correct? And it involved the gay community.

GILLIS: So he has, for sure, one documented interaction with police on Halloween 2001. He, actually, he beat another man with a pipe, quite

badly. And later on, ended up going to the police himself and turning himself in and saying, listen, I did this. It was thought at the time to

have been a bit of an aberration. He didn`t have a criminal record before that. He was trying to say maybe it was some kind of epileptic episode

because it was so out of character. And so that was the previous incident that police know about.

WEBER: OK. So we know that there are about eight victims, for what we know right now. Because number could keep go up, 2010 to 2018. We will

get into why it`s taken so long for this to happen. Those are the eight victims right there.

But y question to you is what`s he been up to the last eight years, and how did they finally catch him now? Because that`s the question. Was he a

suspect at any point? Why did they catch him now, and how did they do it?

GILLIS: Yes, that`s a question that many of us are still sort of waiting to find the answer to. We know that Bruce McArthur came onto the radar

most recently with police in the death of one man. That man is Andrew kinsman.

And so, he became a suspect or a person of interest in Andrew`s disappearance sometime in the fall of last year. And through that

connection, they were able to, I suppose, make connections to all kinds of other disappearances and ultimately charge him in eight men`s death.

We know that there was some sort of event that happened in January of this year, that they were able to arrest him in the death of Andrew Kinsman and

one other man. And then subsequent to that, they have continued to lay more and more charges, and now they are, as you said, up to eight.

[19:05:27] WEBER: Wendy, correct me if I`m wrong and I hope I`m wrong here, but did they not knock down his apartment, that he had a man tied up

to his bed? Please tell me I`m wrong.

GILLIS: Well, that is not information that has officially come from police. That is information that is coming from police sources and

multiple media outlets have reported that. But you won`t get the police officially confirming that.

WEBER: OK, well, I hope I`m not accurate about that, I don`t want to be. But let`s talk about what`s happening now. So he is now been charged with

cutting up bodies and locating them throughout all different kinds of properties. In fact, the police gave a presser where they talked to

different property owners. They believe these remains were scattered over 30 different properties. Let`s learn a little bit more about McArthur`s

past from the police.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

IDSHINGA: If anyone who has employed Mr. McArthur as a landscaper at their residence in the past is not contacted by investigators, I would ask that

you contact us as soon as possible, so that we can make arrangements to search your yards and gardens.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Decomposing bodies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WEBER: OK, that`s not the only thing the police said. Let`s talk a little bit more about the decomposing bodies.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

IDSHINGA: These remains are of individuals who have been dismembered. They are in various stages of decomposition.

DR. MICHAEL POLLANEN, CHIEF FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST FOR ONTARIO: We need to utilize many different scientific disciplines. Pathology, anthropology,

dentistry, fingerprints, all these modalities are integrated together to understand what`s happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WEBER: Wow. Wow.

Joseph, got to talk to you about this, OK. How do you go about searching these properties, finding the different body parts, finding evidence? What

kind of thorough search is this? Explain it to us.

JOSEPH GIACALONE, FORMER NYPD SERGEANT AND LAW ENFORCEMENT TRAINER: OK. One of the first things you have to do is make a grid search because

they`re so big. Think of it as a football field, cut it up into quadrants and search each quadrant to find evidence, or in this case, body parts.

You have to identify every place that this guy has ever lived in or been to. Because at 66, I doubt this was his first rodeo. I mean, this start

very young, generally, when they are into serial killing.

WEBER: Are the police telling property owners, hey listen, you got to check your property if this guy ever came near it, you got to let us know?

Are they going to be looking for body parts in their flower pots and ravines?

GIACALONE: Well, one of the things you have is the cadaver dogs are going a big help. I have worked with them near New York City on some cold cases

that I had. The issue that it comes down to, there`s two words that scare the police, serial and decomp, right. Basically, that is when you have a

serial killer case, this is the kind of thing that puts a lot of pressure on the police department itself because the media wants answers. The

people wants answers.

These are the things that really frighten the general public. So they have a lot of work to do in finding out every step this guy has been. Because

there is likelihood that is there`s other body parts where he used to live.

WEBER: But I imagine there is immense challenge there particularly from the decomposed nature of the body parts. How do they identify that to a

victim or -- a victim that we done even know about?

GIACALONE: Well, that`s modern DNA, especially mitochondrial DNA. So that is derived from your mother. And these are the kind of things that we used

unfortunately after 9/11 to identify human remains from the world trade center. So it`s very effective tool in identifying people and remains.

The issue that comes down to, is that they have to get DNA from the families of these missing men. You, as the police, you have to now go

through every missing person`s case that could be tied to this guy and contact the families and get DNA samples.

WEBER: It sounds like a nightmare.

GIACALONE: It`s going to be a nightmare because like I said he is 66 and this is only going back to 2010. So you could be looking at decades worth

of information and reports that you have to go through. And remember, not everything is computerized back then either.

WEBER: OK. Well, let`s talk about the legal case with Kirby.

So Kirby, I`m no stranger to this. I understand how this works in the sense that, the judicial system, we got expense here. Do you think if they

say, hey, we can tie this man to four bodies, five bodies, let`s just give up about the rest? You know, we can charge him with enough. We will

charge him with multiple life sentences. Does it matter finding the victims in trying him for every single person he may have killed?

KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, to that questions is to know, does it matter? Yes, it does matter up. But as a practical matter, would the

prosecution in this case say that we are going to determine who all the victims are, but we`re going to pick the ones that we know we can prove

that he was the cause of death. We have a clear case. Get multiple life sentences and that`s going to be it.

Yes, I mean, that`s happened plenty of time before so that is a reasonable thing. But to make sure that every victim is recognized, they are going to

do that. You don`t just say, we don`t want to know who these people are. They are going to find out, given their due, but as a practical matter,

they may not want to try every one of these cases.

[19:10:22] WEBER: And it`s just an unfortunate reality, Kirby. The other unfortunate reality is trying to understand the pattern here. You know,

some -- most of these men are gay individuals, but then there is -- the profile seems to be changing. In fact, the police did a presser where they

talked about the changing profile. I want to play that for our viewers right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

IDSHINGA: The profile actually has changed over the recent years, not just the decades. So we have got to be very cognizant of that as we go through

some old cases.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you look for then?

IDSHINGA: Missing persons that haven`t been located, unsolved, cold murder cases.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WEBER: OK, Joseph, I want to talk to you about this. The changing profile, it is hard to identify what he was looking for here or if it was

only a sub set of the community, Muslim, gay men, we might have had something. But it seems to be the profile is expanding. What are the

challenges there in the investigation?

GIACALONE: Well, this -- it leads to arguments, is it more than one killer involved? Because there`s different MOs on this. But as people get older,

we change. So this is something else. Plus the technology has changed. Many of the people he picked up on the street, and then he was using apps

and other internet records. So you can see that`s full part of the MO change and that is something that investigators now can sink their teeth

in, because there`s an electronic trail that he leaves behind. So they can go by everybody he has contacted and via these, you know, apps or internet

records and then, you know, piece together this, and you know, kind of like backward engineering and see who was involved with him.

WEBER: It seems, again, like a nightmare.

Wendy, I want to you real quick. You know, one of the craziest things about this case is, these body parts weren`t found necessarily in his

apartment. They were found in his clients` backyard, almost, right. But let`s talk a little bit more about that, where they were found and what the

neighbors had to say. But what did they find in his apartment? Because I heard that`s a story as well.

GILLIS: Well, I mean, we know they found volumes of things. There was something like 18,000 photos that they took, and I think over a thousand

exhibits that were taken from that apartment. Now, this has been Toronto`s largest forensic investigation in the history of city. And it is in large

part because of the work that was done in that apartment.

If you want to talk a little bit about what sources are saying about what has been found, I mean, multiple media outlets have reported that Bruce

McArthur kept some images of his victims on his computer.

WEBER: And do we know anything more about that, about how the evidence from his apartment might link him to the victims, or even crimes that we

didn`t even think about?

GILLIS: Well, I mean, we should stress that while they are looking at cold cases, there is still no evidence to actually link him to a single cold

case yet, that the police have confirmed anyway. And that`s as of very recently. So I think they are being quite cautious about, you know, they

are definitely going to go through outstanding missing persons cases to make sure they can rule out any connection to him. But as of right now,

you know, they have not made a definitive link.

WEBER: OK, Joseph, my final question. He is arrested. What`s the next step going forward in this investigation? Where do you think we are going

to be?

GIACALONE: Well, I mean, the investigators now have to do all this work and link him to all these other cases and then see if there`s any other

trophies. Beside, we heard that there was photos found, but did he keep driver`s licenses and things like that where we have seen serial killers in

the past so that could tie him to cases that they don`t even know about.

WEBER: And you have seen cases like this where it is a guy who was a mall Santa, a mall Santa and now this? You have seen this living a completely

secret life?

GIACALONE: Most certainly. I mean, everybody always says, he was such a quiet guy. Listen. Bad guys don`t want to draw attention to themselves.

They are always doing things that a fly under the radar. That`s why they get away with what they do for so long.

WEBER: MY God. Well, hopefully, we will have a little bit more information.

Thank you, everybody.

Next, he is staring squarely at a murder charge in the brutal stabbing death of a college co-ed, but this baby-faced 16-year-old and his attorneys

have hinted at a strange defense, that his acne medication may somehow be to blame.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:19:32] WEBER: You know, for most people, acne causes skin irritation or even unhappy yearbook photos. But in Colorado, acne may have led to the

violent death of a 20-year-old girl. Or at least that`s what attorneys for her suspected killer have reportedly suggested in court. Acne medication,

that is.

Aiden Von Grabow was just 15 when police say he broke into Makayla Grote`s house and stabbed her to death. A girl with her whole life ahead of her

and big dreams of being a professional race car driver.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[19:20:04] MAKAYLA GROTE, VICTIM: Hello, my name is Makayla Grote. I`m 19 and I drive modified out of Longmont, Colorado. On the track, I race my

competitors clean and I always clear my head before each race, removing everything that has happened prior, and focusing on what`s right in front

of me. Off the track, I will always be the first to offer help to a fellow competitor and will always keep a positive attitude and a smile on my face

no matter what`s happened on the track.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WEBER: But Makayla won`t ever race again. And police say Makayla may not even have been the target that night. In fact, they say Grabow planned to

kill her sister, who is reportedly one name among many on his so-called death list. Fortunately, he was arrested before he could claim any more

victims. And he was charged with first-degree murder and three charges of attempted murder.

But he just pled not guilty to those charges, and his attorneys have hinted at a bizarre defense that Aiden might have suffered from involuntary

intoxication, caused in part by acne medication.

Joining me now, Jenna Ellis, attorney and host at KLZ radio, Dr. Tim Gallagher is back with us, medical examiner and forensic pathologist, and

back with us again, defense attorney Kirby Clements.

Jenna, want to start with you. How did this all start? I understand it was over the span of a two-day disturbing period. So take us back there

and try to help us understand what happened.

JENNA ELLIS, ATTORNEY AND HOST, KLZ RADIO: yes. So this actually even started a month prior with Von Grabow actually contacting Nicole, who is

the little sister of the 20-year-old victim. And he had sent her very disturbing Snapchat messages, according to police reports, and indicating

that he actually had this so-called death list. And then --

WEBER: You know what, Jenna, sorry to interrupt. We have those Snapchat messages. I want to show those who our viewers if we can. Want to pull

those up because it`s one thing to talk about them, but let`s read them out.

So this is some of them. It`s not pretty for people on this list. The rules are one, pick a target. Two, get info on the target. Three,

eliminate the target. Also if you tell anyone, I`ll make sure you`re next on the list.

She says, just tell me what could happen to -- and that part we can`t see -- she hasn`t done anything wrong.

And what does he say? A 13-inch steel hunting knife, that`s just the start.

Aiden says, what would you do to keep your friend alive? I know that you know.

She responds, anything.

He says, really?

Yes, I`m done playing this stupid game with you.

And he says, sadly, it`s not a game.

Jenna, please. I`m sorry to interrupt, but those we had to tell those Snapchat messages. Please continue.

ELLIS: Absolutely. And so, this of course then is reported to police. And the police actually interviewed Von Grabow. And he said that he wasn`t

really serious with those messages and was just using that to relieve stress. And where the report also indicates that he had been diagnosed

with severe depression. And although it`s unclear how long he might have been taking the acne medication along with his antidepressant medication,

that is now what defense attorneys are asserting may have been the cause of these particular messages, as well as what led up to the incident in

November, which started as you said, just as a two-day event. First, he had threatened his parents with felony menacing, which resulted in a phone

call to police. And then the next day --

WEBER: Wait, Jenna. Sorry to interrupt you again. Wasn`t there a package delivered at the house that had a whole bevy of things for him?

ELLIS: There was. And it was one of his grandparents who actually received the package and looked through the contents, and there were a lot

of knives, as well as some other disturbing objects, that really concerned the grandparents and that`s what also led to his parents ultimately

questioning him about this, according to police reports, and then led to Von Grabow apparently swinging a knife at his mother, who called the

police. And they responded to that potential felony menacing incident.

So that happened the day before, unfortunately, 20-year-old Makayla Grote of Longmont, Colorado, was found stabbed in the head and other areas of her

body, and she died a few hours later at the hospital. And then Von Grabow was arrested for that. And even though he was 15 at the time of the

alleged incident, he is being tried in Boulder County, Colorado, as an adult.

WEBER: OK. Let`s talk a little about the injuries that she sustained.

Let`s bring back in Dr. Tim Gallagher. You see that autopsy report there, those are severe, deep wounds. From your perspective, what do you make

about that?

DR. TIM GALLAGHER, MEDICAL EXAMINER AND FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST (on the phone): Well, those wounds look like they would definitely be fatal,

certainly instantly incapacitating. But these look like --

WEBER: By the hairline, right by the hairline, look at that one.

[19:25:04] GALLAGHER: Say it again.

WEBER: The one right by the hairline, right into the forehead.

GALLAGHER: Right. That one, apparently, was just a three-eighths of an inch deep, not very deep, so that reflected off the skull. It did not

penetrate into the brain. The one into the chest is right over the area of the heart, and that looks like it may be the fatal wound. And if that is

the fatal wound, it`s certainly is unrepairable and instantly fatal.

WEBER: OK. So we know that Michael Brown, who is a neighbor, he reported what he heard during this attack. I think we have that sound bit. I want

to play that right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL BROWN, NEIGHBOR: I heard a thud, thud, thud. I opened up my living room door, I looked out here, and I saw a girl laying right here on

the floor. She wasn`t responding. I yelled, are you OK? And I screamed for help.

A man with a motorcycle jacket, motorcycle helmet, gloves, and a knife in his hands, was coming down the stairs, and he saw me. I backed up from

her. When he saw me backing up, I ran further, because he started coming after me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WEBER: Wow. Did you hear that? That`s an eyewitness account of the actual killing.

Now, this death list that they found, investigators, wasn`t the only thing they found. We have a list of everything that was found in connection with

this crime. I want to pull that up right now so our viewers can see this because it is quite a list.

Molotov cocktails, knives, dark clothing, boots, face mask, goggles, duct tape, love the way he spelled it there, head lamp, flashlight. Now a

hatchet, he wanted a hatchet, but I don`t think he found one. They didn`t find it on the property. Bleach, gloves and a map.

Jenna, that`s quite the laundry list of things. And top of the fact we know a little bit more about this man, I don`t even want to say man, he was

15 years old at the time. The question is, what do we know a little bit more about his behavior and his demeanor, especially in light of this list?

ELLIS: Yes, not only the list that is certainly disturbing as well as the Snapchat messages, but also when he was being interviewed by police, his

dad was there and made a reference to two cats that had been killed on their property recently. And according to the police report, at that time,

Aiden just looked over at his dad and smirked. And so the attitude there, according to police reports, was very no nonchalant and really showed no

evidence of remorse or anything other than just a steely exterior. And so, police reports have also indicated that the erratic behavior began about

the time that he was diagnosed with severe mental health issues.

WEBER: OK, Jenna. I`m so glad you brought that up. I want to bring on Kirby right now.

OK, Kirby, I have heard of involuntary intoxication. I have heard it with alcohol. I have heard it with drugs. Acne medication? There`s no way

this can possibly fly in a courtroom.

CLEMENTS: Actually, it will fly very well because we have a history here. And I don`t think it`s really involuntary intoxication. It`s more the

combination of his major depressive disorder, the antidepressants he was on, coupled with the acne medication.

All these things were going on, but if you look at the history, he had been expelled from school or suspended from school for threatening kids. His

pattern leading up to this clearly showed someone who was mentally unstable. And the thing with medication, you got to understand, it`s not

like you take a pill and you are OK. He had been on the meds for about four weeks --

WEBER: But creates -- a person can create a death list, that are on this medication. That means they`re on it, it might excuse an attack, but to

create a death list and have all this behavior beforehand, the Snapchat threats, really?

CLEMENTS: That is all part --

WEBER: When does it start? It excuses behavior for a long period of time?

CLEMENTS: Well, no. I`m not saying that it excuses his behavior. It explains his behavior. And that`s the difference is that we are looking to

figure out, how did this happen. And we have someone with major mental illness, diagnosed recently, given medication that probably hadn`t been

adjusted properly at this point in time, coupled with the acne medication, and you look at his abhorrent behavior, and when it started, and it started

around the same time. So you have a direct link.

This is not a case where we just kind of say, oh, it must be this. This is one where the history clearly shows it. And quite honestly, the police

should probably have done something when they found that first list, as opposed to accepting his -- the excuse he gave. I`m not blaming them for

what happened, but there was plenty of time to intervene given all the warning signs.

WEBER: Dr. Gallagher, is it possible that acne medication, whether alone or combined with an antidepressant could be a way of involuntary

intoxication here? Could it contribute to what happened, or is this just a stretch by his defense attorneys?

[19:30:00] GALLAGHER: Excellent question. You know, the acne medication has been known to create suicidal ideations and depression. There`s no

history of the medication causing violent behavior that includes homicide. So, I would certainly exploit that as prosecution.

WEBER: All right. Well, we`ll have to see. This is a case to follow on many different levels. Jenna Ellis, thank you so much.

OK, Washington, D.C. Police have released disturbing new surveillance video as they search for the killer of a 10-year-old girl. Four men jumped out

of a car and began firing shots in all directions, into a crowd of people, striking Makiyah Wilson in the chest. Makiyah was rushed to the hospital

where she was later pronounced dead. Four other people were shot and wounded. Makiyah loved art and she loves puzzles. And you know what, she

was going to enter the fifth grade, but that`s not happening anymore. Tonight, police are asking for your help finding these gunmen.

Up next, when over a half-ton boulder rolled out of the back of a truck, Karen and Jena Christiansen found themselves right in its path. Now, the

driver of the truck is behind bars. We`ll break it down after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:36:26] WEBER: You`ve probably been in their position before, driving on the highway with a giant truck that`s transporting heavy materials, and

you`ve probably imagined the scenario when those materials fall off the truck and you have to swerve to save your life. But Karen Christiansen and

her daughter Jena didn`t survive. That`s when a boulder fell off the truck passing by. A three by three foot boulder that weighed about 1100 pounds.

It managed to bounce off the center line before it slammed into their car. And police say it wasn`t a freak accident that the boulder fell off that

truck.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MITCHELL SCOTT, ROSEMOUNT POLICE CHIEF: It`s evident to us that it was not secured in the back of the vehicle. You know, it`s very traumatic for the

families and the officers as well. You know, it`s not like something -- we don`t see this type of accident every day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WEBER: Thank goodness we don`t because this, it took four firefighters to get that boulder off the car. And it took three days to track down the

truck driver who allegedly kept on driving when his cargo took the Christiansens` lives, cargo that he`s required by law to secure. Now, he`s

charged with vehicular homicide, and he faces 40 years behind bars. Joining me now, Andrew Lee, co-host of "Justice & Drew," on KTLK AM 11:30;

Dr. Tim Gallagher is back with us, medical examiner and forensic pathologist, as well as the great defense attorney Kirby Clements. Welcome

back, everybody. Andrew, I want to start with you. What do we know about the suspect here, Joseph Paul Czeck. What do we know about him, done any

violations in the past, what do we know about this man?

LEE: Joseph Czeck, he actually owns the business that was -- that was hauling those boulders of Czeck Services out of Inver Grove Heights. He`s

a -- he`s a 33-year-old Hastings man, as you mentioned, facing multiple felony charges. He did leave the scene and he -- after the unstrapped

boulder, the unsecured 1100-pound boulder fell out of his truck and killed those women.

Investigation revealed that the truck driver, he pulled over about a mile later, pulled into a driveway and then, after the accident, started

strapping down the remaining boulders in the back of the truck. So, it certainly appears as if he was aware that this happened, aware that he was

transporting these boulders in an unsafe manner, and then stopped. Police say they never got a report of the accident from the suspect in this case.

WEBER: So, that photo that we`re showing of the truck was right after the boulder fell off. You could probably imagine, that`s an 1100-pound

boulder. If it fell off the truck, you probably would know that that would happen. I think it slammed into the ground and left a mark at one point.

It`s such a heavy object there. Let`s talk to Dr. Tim Gallagher a little bit about it. Can you explain the awful series of events, about how this

actually happened, in terms of the death of these two women? It`s not like it killed one woman. It killed both of them. So, was it the perfect mix

of events, the speed, the proximity of the cars? How did this happen? How did it inflict these injuries?

GALLAGHER: Well, it certainly is a traumatic sequence of events. Yes, I could imagine the boulder falling off of the back of the truck and then

striking the automobile, killing possibly both of them at the same time, or it may have incapacitated the driver to where she may have crashed and

killed the passenger.

[19:40:08] You know, certainly tragic and certainly the Florida Highway Patrol or the investigating authority would have more information about

that, but that 1100-pound boulder can certainly inflict fatal injuries onto people with very little effort.

WEBER: Do you happen to know if it would cause immediate death, if it would be suffering? Is there any way to be able to tell from that?

GALLAGHER: It certainly would suggest that it would cause immediate death. I mean, it looks like, if it struck the chest or the head of one or both of

the victims, immediate death would certainly be one of my top concerns.

WEBER: Well, here`s what I want to do. I want to talk about what the law is here. So, Rosemount Police Chief Michael Scott has talked about what

the law is. Let`s play that for you right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT: You`re required by law to have whatever you`re hauling secured in your vehicle. So, if you have a -- if you have a pickup truck and you have

a fifth wheel, or like a lawn mower, or a ATV, UTV inside, you`re responsible to make sure it`s secure. Things happen out of our control all

of the time. So, take the extra time to make sure things are secure.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WEBER: Well, that`s the law. Kirby Clements, what`s his best defense here? Let`s start off with the vehicular homicide. What`s his best

defense moving forward here, because it appears, based upon the facts that he knew that this boulder fell off and that he should have attached it.

CLEMENTS: Well, the main defense in this matter would be whether there was some sort of strap failure, that is, he secured the boulder, he secured the

load, and maybe the straps or the securing -- the -- what he strapped down failed. And I used to load freight when I was in law school -- I mean, law

school actually and college. And sometimes you can have a failure of the things that you (INAUDIBLE) you use to strap freight down with. So, that

boulder could`ve been strapped down, it broke free, or the strapping gave way, and it flipped off, and he just didn`t know there was an accident. In

fact, that`s really the only defense that he can go forward with, because he can acknowledge -- he cannot acknowledge knowing that it fell off and

crashed into a car and that he did nothing to help.

WEBER: It kind of ties into the other thing that he`s charged with, leaving the scene of the crime, never a good thing. So, how is he going to

say, you know what, I didn`t know that the boulder fell off, this 1100- pound boulder off the back of the truck, how is he going to say he didn`t know that?

CLEMENTS: Because he drove over -- from what I`m gathering from the evidence, it appears that he drove over some railroad tracks. So, he can

say all the jostling that occurred happened when he went over the railroad tracks. He didn`t know that the boulder fell off at that point in time.

It`s not like he would have felt the car get -- the truck get lighter, he just didn`t know. I mean, that`s really it. Strap failure and he didn`t

know.

WEBER: But he knew how many boulders were in the back of that truck, and he secured it, we saw that photo, there was one missing. That`s going to

maybe be an uphill argument.

CLEMENTS: That`s true.

WEBER: But we`ll have to see. All right. Anyway, a beautiful, young, Montana woman missing for more than a month. And now, police say her

sudden silence on social media is a telling sign that she may be in danger. That story when we return.

[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WEBER: We are tracking the urgent search for a missing young woman in Montana. The 23-year-old beauty who police fear is being held against her

will. Jermain Charlo was last seen over a month ago walking in a residential neighborhood after going bar-hopping with friends. It`s a

typical night for a 23-year-old, with a 23-year-old`s online presence. Friends and family tell police that Jermain loved posting to social media,

but all of her accounts have gone dark, which has made investigators draw dark conclusions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUY BAKER, DETECTIVE, MISSOULA POLICE DEPARTMENT: The fact that she has not been on social media for over three weeks now is concerning to us,

because her pattern of life prior to that was that she was on there, frequently and daily, and she hasn`t been. So, she`s somewhere where

either her ability to move about freely or have access to the internet is being restricted, but something`s going on that concerns us, because of her

lack of activity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WEBER: Joining me now, former NYPD Sergeant and law enforcement trainer Joseph Giacalone; and back again, defense attorney Kirby Clements. OK.

Now, I want to start with you, Joseph, and first, can I say, thank you for your service. Is that a right way of saying it?

GIACALONE: That`s great. Thanks.

WEBER: OK. How do they go about finding this woman? What is the steps, the coordination? I think it`s between the police and the sheriff`s

office, how does it work?

GIACALONE: Well, they`re going to be looking at basically the three -- what I call "forensic horsemen," cell phone records, internet records, and

video surveillance.

WEBER: Of her?

[19:50:03] GIACALONE: Of her, yes, her last whereabouts. I mean, this is where they`re going to try to pin it down because that video surveillance

could play a pivotal role in this case. So, she was in -- you know, she was at a couple of these bars, she was at this store, this, you know,

Farmers` Market, so to speak, so there could be lots of videos, a bank, ATM, anything that could give them a clue into what happened, maybe she was

abducted off the street or what have you, or we got to remember, we have a story that this set of friends dropped her off, too. They can then verify

that, too.

WEBER: They say that they have tracking down persons of interests. What does that mean?

GIACALONE: Well, they have probably a few leads from just about what I was talking about before. So, maybe she met somebody in the bar, maybe she was

walking with them, maybe she got into a car. So, these are just some of the things that they got -- they have to look at. It`s going to be a

puzzle.

WEBER: Correct me if I`m wrong, but timing is critical here, right? Is it the first 48 hours, is it the first 72? The first -- what is the timing

there that we need to see some action?

GIACALONE: They always say the first 48 hours or so but we actually refer to like the first hour of an investigation, how close that person was to

where they were looking, is the most important part of it, so they`re going to have to try to piece this together from that moment as she was last seen

and see what can they -- it can develop.

WEBER: Listen, we`re in 2018. I get social media, I do it myself. Is it fair to say that because she has been inactive on social media, there`s

something nefarious going on?

GIACALONE: It`s very bad. You know, I mean, anybody with a 22-year-old daughter or around that, I mean, they`re on their -- they`re glued to these

phones, and if they were doing this before and then all of sudden that stops, that`s not a very good sign.

WEBER: Isn`t it amazing, social media, we want to be more on it right now. And we`re encouraging it a little bit more.

GIACALONE: Yes, and the police when they`re doing their press conference doesn`t -- don`t sound so hopeful in this, either.

WEBER: Kirby, I want to go to you now. If she is being taken under duress, if she`s -- someone is holding her, what is the best legal option

for that person? What would you advise them to do? What is their best moving forward -- because they would be a defendant in an upcoming case?

Kirby, I give it to you, what would you say to them?

CLEMENTS: I would tell them that they need to limit their liability by letting this woman go. They can`t harm her because that`s going to

increase the punishment. You`re not going to kill somebody because there`s no statute of limitations. So, if you -- you`ve broken the law already,

let`s not make it worse, let`s make it better, get her somewhere else, let her go, go get a lawyer and turn yourself in. That`s the easiest way for

this to end. Better for everyone.

WEBER: Because the charges and the outcome could be a whole lot worse, so Kirby, I hope everyone is listening. I hope everyone is listening out

there. But I want to talk a little bit more with you, Joseph, about this. So, there`s a problem here. I know it. People come forward with fake

tips. You see this, you see it on T.V. How do you weed out fake information, fake news, how do you weed it out from here?

GIACALONE: Well, you know, it`s sometimes not so much fake to throw you off an investigation. People are trying to help and then they inundate you

with all kinds of things, like, I think I saw her in a -- you know, in a car wash somewhere in Seattle. I mean, these are the things that can now

eat up a lot of the personnel and the time to do this. So, we have to -- as a former law enforcement officer, you have to try to weed through some

of those tips that you get because you never want to turn the public off and say, you know, stop. You want them to use these tip lines. So, we

want them to come forward with this information. And you as the police you have to try to like decipher about what`s a good one? Like, oh, he say --

what has meat on it where you can actually go out and look for something.

WEBER: And real quick, we`re talking about social media, can it be a really useful tool right now to track her and find her?

GIACALONE: Absolutely. Social media is the biggest investigative tool since, you know, DNA, as far as I`m concerned. So, it`s -- it puts you at

locations and can help you, you know, tie them down.

WEBER: So, basically, what you`re saying is, if anybody has information, come forward and use social media if possible, as well.

GIACALONE: Absolutely, especially with all of the things like crime stoppers.

WEBER: Pretty amazing. Well, I hope that they find her, I hope we get an answer to this because it`s a really sad situation. So, as soon as we have

an update, we`ll let you know.

Now, if you`ve been on the run from police for two months and finally they nab you after a car chase, would you be all smiles? We`ll tell you about

this cheesy pair, next.

[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WEBER: "ONE MORE THING" tonight, a police chase ends with an unusual photo op that`s gone viral. Suspects Matthew White and Amber Taynor were on the

run in a stolen vehicle in Florida when they were caught and handcuffed. One of the arresting officers had this photo taken with the couple. A nice

one. They`re nodding in approval as they look at the snapshot of an officer`s phone but shortly after that, those smiles were nowhere to be

seen in their mug shots. Charges against White included grand theft of a motor vehicle and evidence tampering. He and Taynor were charged with drug

possession. And who says that crime can`t be a little fun? We`ll see you back here tomorrow night at 6:00 Eastern. You can listen to the show any

time. Download the podcast on Apple Podcast, iHeart Radio, Stitcher, TuneIn, or wherever you get your podcast for your CRIME & JUSTICE fix.

I`m Jesse Weber, thanks for watching. "SOMETHING`S KILLING ME" begins right now.

END