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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield
Son, Beat Mom, Burned Body For Eight Hours; Search For Mollie, Iowa College Missing For A Week; Jilted Lover Accidentally Killed Co-Worker; Nail Salon Owner Sets Fire, Killes Two Firemen; Jilted Love Accidentally Kills Coworker?. Aired 6-8p ET
Aired July 24, 2018 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
[18:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- Crime and justice is up right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tucker said nothing during his court appearance, but police say the 34-year-old already confessed to killing his mother, Donna
Tucker.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When we heard it was his mom missing, I had concerns.
When investigators showed up at the house, they noticed the fire pit was smoldering along with what appeared to be bones and a human skull.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He provided a confession. He admitted to killing his mother Donna Tucker.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Detective say (inaudible) had already done something to hurt 20 year old Christina`s Danielle Scarr when he is seen walking out
of the house pretending to be a victim himself. He told them she was shot in the foot and Scarr was killed by a home invader, but now, detectives say
it was all a lie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s our belief that he had planned to do this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All from victim now to suspect.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A real housewife in real trouble in the back of a police cruiser.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don`t touch me. I`m going to kill you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Found drunk in a Florida hotel. Refusing to leave a room, allegedly hitting an officer in the head.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ll hog tie you if you don`t stop.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The latest on Luann De Lesseps drunken run in with the law.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RITA COSBY, GUEST HOST, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE: And good evening, everybody. I am Rita Cosby in for Ashleigh Banfield. This is Crime and
Justice. Representing yourself in court is no small undertaking, it gets easier if you went to law school, especially law school like Harvard law
school, but if you went to law school and then you brutally murdered your mom and then you tried to hide the evidence before admitting you did it,
representing yourself might get a little more challenging. Police say that is Kyle Tucker story, the Connecticut man accused of beating his 60-year-
old mom to death with a baseball bat. He reportedly attacked her in their kitchen. Bashing her right in the face. Before dragging her outside to
the fire pit. Where he says he doused her with gasoline and set her body on fire.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We thought maybe somebody was setting up a barbecue or something you know, because it was a nice day. Never even thinking that it
was what it probably was.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Amazing story. Tucker would later tell the cops that he did it because his mom had tried to kill him. Even telling officers god was
guiding him, but he didn`t confess to the crime until he cleaned up the kitchen which was so bloody, he had to repaint it. And until after he lied
to his aunt, telling her his mom was on a date when he had allegedly just used his mom`s credit card to buy an urn for her own ashes. Now he wants
to represent himself in the murder trial, but first, we need to find out if Tucker is mentally competent and whether there`s any truth to this self-
defense story.
And joining me now to talk about all of this is Steve Kalb, is a freelance reporter. Also Tom Verni, a former NYPD detective and law enforcement
consultant and defense attorney, Misty Marris, as well as misty and Dr. Danielle Bober, he is a forensic psychiatrist.
Steve, this story is so wild. Take us to how everything began. Apparently, Kyle Tucker`s aunt thought there was something suspicious.
Doesn`t hear from her sister, his mom, and then what happens?
STEVE KALB, FREELANCE REPORTER: At that point, he goes to, she goes to the house and confronts Tucker. He says that mom`s out on a date. And she
then calls police. And police come and talk to him. And at that juncture, at that point, when they talk to Tucker, they find out that there`s a,
basically, a body back in the fire pit behind the house.
COSBY: Well, they also talked to the brother, right, because the brother says hey, my brother`s a bit of a looney tune, right?
KALB: He says, my brother is a bit of a looney tune and police ask him about his mother and the brother says oh, my brother probably killed my
mom.
COSBY: Wait, he says my brother probably killed my mom. So clearly, this is not one big happy family.
KALB: Doesn`t seem to be. There were as I recollect, three brothers. One of them is passed away at the age of 35 that left the other two and the one
in Texas is the one who said I think that my brother killed my mom.
COSBY: All right. So, then they go to the house and tell us what happens, what they find because Steve, they found a plethora of just some really
horrifying evidence here.
KALB: They found first off, Tucker says that he cleaned the house. He use clorox and bleach and some other things to clean it, but he wasn`t able to
get all the blood off the ceiling and off the walls, so he repaints at least one of the walls. At that point, police had gone in the back of the
house and also had looked and found this fire pit. In the fire pit, which had been burning apparently for eight hours, fueled by turpentine and
gasoline, they find the remnants, even though it is mostly very, very small (inaudible) to find that they found a remnants of what used to be a person.
Obviously some bones.
COSBY: You know it`s unbelievable when you hear this. I want to just walk through again some of the things because at first, he doesn`t admit to it.
He say the mom was what, out on date with some druggie. He tries to stick by that story. So it`s not like he turns himself in here.
KALB: No, not at that juncture. At that point, police bring him down to question him. At that point, it all sort of spills out, but initially, he
said, mom`s fine. She is gone out with some druggie or some guy.
COSBY: And you talk about some of just how horrible. I want to put up a little bit of the screen. This is something that Kyle Tucker said to
police ultimately when he finally got busted. Again, it`s not like he said hey, I did it. Fist he made up this big lie. Said she was out with a
druggie. The aunt of this guy, Kyle Tucker, knew right away, wait a minute, the mom doesn`t have a boyfriend. She is not a drinker. The alarm
bells went off. Finally, he fesses. This is just so horrifying of what he says happened with his mom. And he basically says god got into my body,
walked me downstairs with my baseball bat and it was very quick and almost even hard to remember. I don`t really feel like I was totally myself, I
was holding my mind and body doing anything. It was god walking through me. So he is trying to blame it on god. This is unbelievable. Dr.
Danielle Bober, what`s your reaction to this when you hear this and a guy that went to Harvard law school, and seems very calculating and now trying
to blame it on god. I`m a faithful person. God doesn`t tell me to do that, Dr. Bober.
DANIELLE BOBER, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: Oh, it`s a bizarre and horrific story, but when you really think about it, he is saying god entered his
body and told him to do it. Was it also god who had told him to lie about the whereabouts of his mom? Was it god who told him that he should
sterilize the scene and repaint the kitchen? I mean, there`s a lot of mixed messages here. You know on the one hand, we can`t say that this is
the result of some paranoid religious delusion, but at the same time make attempts to try to sterilized the scene and conceal the crime.
COSBY: Yes, in fact when they put up, Dr. Bober, this is again what he said to police about the evidence to as you talk about. I saw her in the
kitchen, this is him calculating the crime. She was standing up. I hit her on top of the head with a baseball bat. She fell down. I hit her in
the nose really hard with a baseball bat to make sure that she would die very quickly. As if we`re supposed to have sympathy for her, Dr. Bober.
BOBER: Exactly. It sounds to me like a very cold, very calculated crime his lawyers are going to have a hard time with the fact that he got
initially was deceptive about what happened and fact that he tried to conceal the crime is going to be a problem for them.
COSBY: Yes, sure is. Pity of him that he tried to like, hurry it up for her. It is just unbelievable. I want to go to Tom Verni, who is here with
us, former NYPD detective, also jury consultant, law enforcement expert, too, as well.
Tom, when you hear this, I think forensic are so damming. Especially like he is doing her a favor. He wants us to think to play sympathy. I tried
to get it over with quickly. All the things we find the incendiary, we find all the items, too. We find that it was burning in fire pit for eight
hours. This is his mother, Tom. It is unbelievable. It is such a shocking case.
TOM VERNI, FORMER DETECTIVE, NEW YORK POLICE: It really is. Just, and you know what, clearly, he is demented -- in some way you have to be demented
to even consider doing that to your mother. I`m no theologian, but I`m not aware of any god that would possess someone to go and do that. That is,
you know, on the opposite end of the spectrum, the most devilish act you could ever do to somebody, especially your own mother. The one thing about
this case, too, is the police have been to this residence a number of times to deal with his mental illness.
COSBY: Yes. In fact, let me play a little bit. Because we have some comments from the chief. This Thomas Hydra (ph), specifically talking
about some of the history at this house.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As far as I know, Kyle Tucker does not have an arrest history. And so you know, had he previously displayed mental illness that
was reported to us? The answer is yes, but I don`t believe any of those we had cause to believe that he would do harm to his own mother.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[18:10:17] COSBY: All right. Tom Verni, you hear this clearly the cops missed the mark. They went to the house. We also hear that the brother
who said I think my brother did this, I mean, what a horrible situation it must be in that family, the mother, god rest her soul, killed by her own
son. Now we find out that he was also in some mental hospital too as well, according to the aunt, but cops went to the house a couple of times. Boy,
did they miss the mark and I`m a big fan of cops, Tom, but they missed the ball on this one.
VERNI: Yes, well, also the other thing, it`s not a crime to be mentally ill, right. So, but here, you have someone who clearly probably should
have been institutionalized. But over the last few decades, we`ve had this process of deinstitutionalization, you know, the let people out that could
be controlled, their symptoms can be controlled through medication, through therapy -- outpatient therapy, so you don`t have people locked up the way
we used to, but for now, sometimes, you`ve got someone who`s really off the rails and they go on and check. Now you have a situation where something
sparks, you know, an argument or some sort of dispute and you wind up in a situation like this. You have someone beating their mother`s head into the
ground.
COSBY: This is a slam dunk for prosecutors for the cops in this case. What do you think, Tom?
VERNI: Well, nothing`s ever really a slam dunk here, but seems to be an overwhelming amount of forensic evidence here as well as circumstantial
evidence. And then you have the admission. The fact that he clearly attempted to cover it up, that starts to make you wonder whether or not how
crazy is he. So to speak, I mean he clearly took time and effort to stake a time and say, you know, what his was a big boo-boo. Let me try to clean
this up. When as the other former guest you had on had mentioned, it`s hard to clean up some of these crimes, especially with an impact from a
baseball bat and the blood splatter is going to be everywhere. And you know, crime scene investigators are very good at what they do. And they`re
going to be able to track down even the most minuet bit of blood spatter nowadays with all the things we have available.
COSBY: So that is why he went to that effort. He also went to get more gas. He did a whole bunch of things that show calculation. He bought the
urn with his mother`s amazon account with her credit card. Misty Marris, if you`re the defense attorney for this guy, let`s explain this. He
doesn`t want you, first of all, he wants to represent himself.
MISTY MARRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. We all know that adage, right? The person that represents themselves has a fool for a client and this guy
especially needs to have representation, because here Rita, the best defense you have is probably an insanity defense. And looking back, I
understand there are all of these actions after the crime which could undercut that, but you have to remember when you look at insanity, you`re
looking at the time period when the crime was committed. We`re hearing him say god caused me to do it. Well, guess what, the insanity defense says,
you lost control of your actions or didn`t understand the consequences, he didn`t set up there for insanity defense.
COSBY: Wait a minute, but he, it looks like it is, but he cleaned up the evidence as Tom just pointed out. Had to repaint the house. There was so
much blood. Made sure to make sure there were just ashes. He didn`t confess to it, he clearly covered it up. He was cognizant enough to go get
some more gas. Oh, I didn`t burn my mother enough, I need more help. This is not someone who just sort of happened to happen and it snapped. And he
blamed that he claimed the mother was trying to kill him and poison him. There is no evidence of that.
MARRIS: Rita, and you make great points. And of course this is a large hurdle for a defense attorney to overcome. Which is why, not to boast my
profession. This guy needs an attorney, but what an attorney`s going to do to defend him is to look back at the mental health history. That is going
to be a huge factor in this defense. Also, yes, there might be no evidence that his mother was trying to kill him, but the sense of paranoia that that
could be happening, could lead to a murder or he just snapped. That is what you will see in the courtroom.
COSBY: You bet, but he is going to get a hard time. Real quick, Dr. Bober, crazy like a fox or crazy?
BOBER: Well, actually, I agree with your previous guest. I don`t think this is a slam dunk case. I mean, if he has a long standing history of
psychosis. That could definitely play into this.
COSBY: Yes, you know, for sure. We will be following this, guys. Thank you very much. Such a sad case with the mom. Such a horrible case.
Tonight, an Iowa family is holding out hope that a 20-year-old missing college student will come home. Mollie Tibbetts vanished last Wednesday
night and the circumstances are still a mystery at this hour. The FBI is helping local authorities in the search for Mollie. She reportedly went
for a run and did not show up for work the next morning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She hadn`t called in and I look to my phone. And I noticed that I texted her good morning that morning and she hadn`t opened
it so I got a hold of her friends and family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Mollie`s boyfriend says that Mollie goes for a nightly run and always takes her cell phone and wears her fit bit tracker, but seven days
of searching have revealed no word on her where about.
Well, when turned down for a date, most people just move on, but in Florida, a rebuff request may have ended in a brutal murder of Christina
Scarr. We are going to have that story, and that is coming up next.
[18:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And this is Rita Cosby in for Ashleigh Banfield. We are tracking a spine tingling story out of Florida. Where prosecutors are trying to pin
down the young man who they say ambushed his crush. Strangling her to death at her home. The 26-year-old Asgeirr Ulfr, had reportedly hooked up
with his co-worker, a hostess where they both worked at Olive Garden, who even let him live at her house, but Christina Scarr, moved on quite quickly
and Asgeirr Ulfr seemingly did not.
Prosecutors say he hid in her closet before she and her new boyfriend went to bed and waited for him to leave in the morning. That is when they say
Ulfr disguised himself an attacked Christina, leaving behind a scene so violent, we can`t even show you the full evidence photo, but we can show
you just a partial image, which I will warn you right now is very disturbing. It shows Christina wrist bound with duct tape. You can see it
there as she lays topless and lifeless on the floor and it wasn`t just her hands. Her entire face was wrapped in duct tape which prosecutors say Ulfr
did before placing this chilling call to 911.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ASGEIRR UFLR, SUSPECT: I don`t know if mien friend is breathing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Where were you shot at?
ULFR: My foot. I was shot in my foot.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: you said, you`re not bleeding?
ULFR: I`m bleeding. I`m bleeding.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. I need you to take a deep breath. We have help on the way to you. Still there?
ULFR: No, I don`t think I saw them leaving through the backyard?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How old?
ULFR: She is 20.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Is she awake?
ULFR: I don`t know. I can`t tell if she is breathing or not. She is tied up. She is tied up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Where is she shot?
ULFR: She wasn`t, I don`t think she was shot. I don`t see any blood around her at all. She looks like she was beaten up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know when this happened?
ULFR: No, I just got here. Dropping off the keys. Doesn`t look like she is breathing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You don`t see her chest rising?
ULFR: No, no. Oh my god. Right now, she is on the floor, she is duct taped to the bed and her face is duct taped. Her face is duct taped. Can
you take the duct tape off? We need to go ahead and start CPR.
ULFR: I don`t know -- I don`t have anything to take the duct tape off of. Off with. I don`t, I don`t, I don`t see a knife or anything. I think
someone`s here. Yes, please come in.
I`m in the back room. I am in the back room.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Well, sounded pretty convincing, but investigators soon encountered a problem with Uflr story. There seemed to be no concrete evidence anyone
had broken in to the house, but Ulfr seemed to have his own ideas about the monster who had murdered his friend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know Danielle to -- why anybody would want to do this to her?
ULFR: Kind of. Maybe I know from what she told me, she was seeing a couple of guys. And maybe one of them wasn`t OK with it or found out or
something. Or at least, I don`t know if she actively started seeing them yet. You know, some guys are crazy, they`re possessive.
COSBY: And Ulfr might have been right. Saying a possessive guy may be behind Christina`s death, because Ulfr reportedly told his lawyer that he
had attacked her himself. He apparently only did it to scare her before he planned to show up and rescue her, but now, he is facing the death penalty
and he is up against a mountain of evidence. Joining us to talk about all of this is Ray Caputo, he is an anchor and reporter with 96.5 WDBO. Also,
Joseph Scott Morgan, certified death investigator and professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University and defense attorney, Misty
Marris.
Let us continue with you Ray, let me go to you. Because this is so incredible. I want to play a little bit of his story. Because when you
hear Asgeirr Ulfr story, this is how he described when he arrived at the house. This is his concocted scheme of him arriving at the house and this
is what he says he saw. This is in the police interview when he talked to the cops.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you got to your house. Was she home? Was she awake?
ULFR: When I got to her house, the door was open. It was ajar. It wasn`t shut all the way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You walk in, did you call for her or anything? You did?
ULFR: yes, I called for her. I said, hey, Nellie. I said, hey, your door was open. I just wanted to drop off the storage key. I said are you in
the bathroom or something. And I got a glass of water.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she answer you back?
ULFR: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Ray Caputo, when you hear that, he is worried supposedly about her. And then he goes and gets a glass of water. Did I hear that right, Ray
Caputo?
RAY CAPUTO, REPORTER, NEWS 96.5 WDBO: Yes. Rita, I mean, he was really nonchalant. You know, in fact, when he was interviewed in the hospital,
the way the interview started, it was just really odd. Like he had this nervous laugh. You know, I put myself in his position if I had just found
a friend in that position and was shot by an intruder in the foot. I`d be a little more shaken up, so, you know, all for his demeanor just really on
top of a mountain of evidence, points to the fact that he is the perpetrator in this crime.
COSBY: Yes, it`s really incredible when you just hear like weird behavior, those kind of go alarm bells. He also claimed and this was so weird that
it was a woman who did it. That he tried to fight off the attacker, but here is him explaining to the cops that a female was behind this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ULFR: I started walking into the back and I saw her. And I said, oh my god, oh my god, nelly, are you OK? And that is when the person came out of
the bathroom and --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So how many people were there?
ULFR: At this point, I just saw one.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did that person look like?
ULFR: About my height. Had a black mask on, a black hoodie. I think they had boobs, breasts.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breasts, was a female?
ULFR: I believe so. Blue jeans. Either they were black or wearing gloves I slotted at the gun. Because I didn`t want to die. And that is
when they shot me in the foot and they bolted for the door and when they left, that is when I saw someone else jump the fence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And what an unbelievable tale of fiction. Ray Caputo, let describe what cops found. And I want to show the picture. Because this is her
hands bound and again, everybody, this image is disturbing, it is very, very disturbing. We can`t show you anymore. She was topless and her face
was duct taped, but describe what cops found and what he claims he found, Ray Caputo.
CAPUTO: It`s just a sad scene, Rita. She was lying next to her bed, nothing, but her underwear on and her legs were bound with black zip ties.
There was a sloppy duct tape job. Her hands where duct taped in front of her, and her face was duct taped but it wasn`t clean. It wasn`t just a
clean piece of duct tape over her mouth, her eyes. It was just a sloppy duct tape job that was all over her face covering her eyes, you know, part
of her nose, her mouth. I mean, it was just a really scary thing for investigator to walk into. I`ve sign those crime photos to. A lot of
times, us, reporters were not privy to those. But you know, I can`t stop thinking about them. It`s very disturbing what I have seen and what
investigators must have seen when they walked into that home.
COSBY: Yes, absolutely. Joseph Scott Morgan, I want to go with you, for the evidence, we are talking about this, because -- I can`t imagine when
you see it, it`s so upsetting. And again, just because she rebuffed him, it`s not even clear if there was a relationship. It seemed like it was
certainly one sided. On his part. What is it like to die like that? I mean and she was tied to the bed. We have a shot of the bed, too,
apparently because she was tied basically duct taped to the bed and then also duct taped over her face. Joseph Scott Morgan, how horrific.
JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, PROFESSOR OF FORENSIC, JACKSONVILLE STATE UNIVERSITY: Yes. It really is, Rita. We`ve got a case here that is involving
apparently, a fixie all type bed now we don`t know if this was a result of her being choked or this was result of her being kind of smothered with
this tape, but we do know that her airway was occluded. One of the reports that I`m hearing is that there was actually hemorrhage into the soft
tissues of the neck and the larynx and this sort of thing and also another point of order here is the fact that she has got the petechiae in the eyes.
These are small pinprick hemorrhages where the vessels actually because of the interior pressure that`s built up as a result of the exclusion of
oxygen, these little vessels burst and this is indicative of an asphyxial death. One other point here --
RITA COSBY, HOST, HLN: And doctor, you`re talking about strangling, right, just for --
MORGAN: Yeah, yeah, right. So strangling, this is an asphyxial death. Somebody can use a C-clamp or a ligature. There`s any number of ways. But
also suffocation. Remember, Rita, she`s got this tape over her face, over her mouth and nose.
One of the things that is significant, one of the things that we look in any personal crime is this idea of face covering. That is if someone knows
another individual, many times, it will be an effort to cover the eyes so they don`t have to look at this individual under these horrific
circumstances.
COSBY: And indeed, he is now looking at the death penalty. We`re going to talk a lot more about the case and how he got busted and what happened.
That`s coming up next.
[18:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And this is Rita Cosby, in for Ashleigh Banfield. We are still talking about the Florida man charged with murder after he suggested a home
intruder was responsible for his co-worker`s death. But Asgierr Ulfr reportedly told his attorney a very different story, allegedly saying that
he was the one to attack Christina`s car in an effort to get her to like him.
His plan was apparently to disguise himself and simply give her a scare before he reappear as her hero. But Christina ended up dead and the
evidence is piling up against Asgierr Ulfr and it is disturbing. Like this small part of a crime scene photo, because this is really all we can show
you.
It shows Christina`s wrists wrapped in duct tape. Police say Asgierr Ulfr wrapped her whole face in duct tape too, leaving her topless dead body on
the floor. So disturbing to see.
And we continue now with our panel. I want to go first if I could to Joseph Scott Morgan because you recognized something interesting. We saw those
hands so sadly bound of beautiful Christina and there was an interesting mark on her fingers. I want you to describe it because you noticed that,
Joseph.
MORGAN: Yes, I did, Rita. There is an interesting we`ll refer to as a pattern injury on one of her fingers and it is -- it appears to be almost
in a pattern of four little dots and there`s also an adjacent one. And it`s almost as if something was held flush against this. This isn`t just kind of
a passing insult as we would refer to it.
This is something that contacted it, pressed it, and this sort of thing. And one of the things I`m kind of toying with in my mind, I`m wondering if
he wasn`t trying to get her to submit in some way in this kind of violent attack, which, you know, which apparently took place -- the crime scene
photos, I can`t even begin to describe them at this point. It`s a horrific scene.
So, we have this one-on-one contact with him. He is trying to get her to submit and does this frenetic job of trying to cover her face and her neck.
The other thing, interesting, when you see the images of him now, Rita, he has got some marks on his face that are quite interesting as well, almost
consistent with, I don`t know, defensive injuries, as if he`s trying to fight somebody off in the midst of a struggle.
COSBY: So sad, it looks like she was trying to fight back. Ray Caputo, they finally bust him. Explain some of the forensics that tied him.
RAY CAPUTO, REPORTER, NEWS 96.5 WDBO: Well, first off, there`s an electronic trail, Rita. They didn`t have a credit card receipt from the
Walmart because apparently he paid cash. But investigators did a clever job of finding the Walmart. Actually they had to first track down the fact that
it was a Walmart.
But they went and pulled surveillance video and they found the UPC codes and they got the guy on video purchasing evidence that was found at the
crime scene. Duct tape, those zip ties, all different sorts of things. So they got that. They got surveillance video in the car.
And then the most damming piece of evidence are his own words that he made to his attorney. Now, there is the thing called attorney-client privilege,
but he was talking to his attorney while his sister was right next to him. So his sister spilled the beans and he admitted that this was a plan gone
wrong.
He wanted to be this young lady`s savior. He had a plan that he was going to burst out of the closet, attack her, tie her up, and then he was going
to be the one that found her. By his own admission, it was a plan that went terribly, terribly wrong.
So there is a mountain of evidence against Ulfr. And you know, I would bet my bottom dollar that he`s going to be convicted. I think the only question
now is whether or not he is going to get life in prison or death.
COSBY: And also, this guy seems like a real sick dude.
[18:40:00] I want to show a little bit of what the sister -- you brought up the sister there, Ray. Because she said that he also killed the family`s
cat. I want to show a quote. This is apparently what she told to authorities afterwards, where he was basically sort of staging, you know,
the death of this cat.
And the sister says to authorities, quote, advised me while they were staying at their grandmother`s and one night while everyone was sleeping,
he brought his grandmother`s cat outside, sat on it, strangled it, killing the cat. The cat was so old. He placed it back in the house and everyone
thought it died of old age.
Sort of sounds like a Jeffrey Dahmer thing. Misty Marris, if you`re defending this guy, he already said, I did it, he had this crazy hero
complex and obviously it went too far. He was just going to scare her and turns out he ends up killing her.
MISTY MARRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, first of all, I think what you`re going to see a defense attorney do is go back to the fact that the
prosecution`s theory of the case really comes from this privileged conversation, a conversation that should have been just between the
attorney and client.
COSBY: And it`s an interesting case you have, too, because that is a fascinating case. I would argue it if I were the defense attorney.
MARRIS: They`re going to see it for sure.
COSBY: But it`s the sister overhearing it. It`s not a conversation between the attorney and client.
MARRIS: So now she`s overhearing the conversation that should have been between the attorney and client. Right, well, yes, privilege can be broken
when there is a third person in the room and there is no expectation of privacy. But you`re going to see a defense attorney bring that argument
because now if the statement is going to come in, now, it`s hearsay. So now you have to overcome a hearsay exception.
COSBY: So let`s throw out the evidence. Let`s pretend, I think it`s going to be hard, but let`s see if it happens. If it does, then there`s still the
evidence. There`s still the text messages. There`s the motive. He`s hiding in the closet apparently the night before. He lied about it. It`s not like
he turns himself in. There`s a lot of forensics also to back this.
MARRIS: Certainly, there`s enough forensics here that you`re going to see this case go to trial. Certainly you`re going get an indictment here. But
what you`re going to see a defense attorney do in that situation is try and downgrade this as much as they can.
We`re going to look back to the mental health history that we spoke about before. We`re going to have an attorney saying, look, this is a mistake and
this should be downgraded from a murder one to a murder two or manslaughter and that`s the defense is going to try and save it.
COSBY: As opposed to the death penalty.
MARRIS: Exactly.
COSBY: All right. Christina unfortunately isn`t here to give a witness statement sadly for that. Thank you very much. Well, he was one of the most
notorious serial killers in American history. And tonight, investigators are using facial reconstruction to try and identify more of John Wayne
Gacy`s victims. Photos of the remains of two of the victims have helped generate these new life-like computer images in the more than 40-year-old
case.
They were recreated by a forensic artist showing what the victims may have looked like. In the early 1970s, Gacy began raping and murdering boys and
men in the Chicago area, one of the most well-known serial killers ever. And In 1978, he was arrested and convicted of 33 murders. Now, there is
finally hope that two more victims may finally be identified.
And we all remember "Real Housewives" star Luann de Lesseps and her profanity laced tirade and assault on a Palm Beach police officer. Well,
now it appears she just might be avoiding jail time. How is that? We are going to break that down. That`s coming up next.
[18:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And this is Rita Cosby, in for Ashleigh Banfield. Well, it might not shock you to hear that a real housewife got drunk and feisty, but the
fights for which they`re famous don`t always result in formal charges with the possibility of years in prison.
Luann de Lesseps isn`t just any housewife though. She is the star of the New York series known nationwide and she is known as the countess. But her
behavior was less than lady-like at a Florida hotel last Christmas eve, when police say she drunkenly refused to leave a room, slamming the door on
an officer`s head before she was carted off to the cruiser.
That`s where she was caught on body cam trying to slip out of her cuff links, you can see it there, before she said the words that she would
absolutely later regret.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Stop resisting. Stop resisting.
LUANN DE LESSEPS, AMERICAN TELEVISION PERSONALITY: Why? Why? Why? Oh, my god. I`m going to get you. I`m going to get you big time. You`re going to
be so bad. You`re going to be so bad. You`ve done nothing, I`ve done nothing wrong. I`ve done nothing wrong. And you handcuffed me. Guess what.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): What?
DE LESSEPS: No, no, no. I`m not getting in that car. I`ve done nothing wrong. I`ve done nothing wrong. I`m not -- no.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s going to --
DE LESSEPS: No. No. I want my shoes and my bag and my stuff. Don`t touch me. Don`t touch me.
[18:50:00] Don`t touch me. I`m going to kill you. I`ll kill you. I will kill you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whoa, whoa, whoa.
DE LESSEPS: So what? What did I do? I did nothing wrong. Don`t touch me. Don`t touch me. Don`t touch me. Don`t touch me. Don`t touch me. Don`t touch
me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sit back. Watch your feet.
DE LESSEPS: No. No. My friend. My friend is staying. My friend. Don`t touch me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Listen to me, I`m going to hog-tie you if you don`t stop. Do you understand what I`m telling you right now?
DE LESSEPS: What?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop.
DE LESSEPS: What did I do?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Leave your feet in the vehicle.
DE LESSEPS: What did I do wrong?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Luann, just relax. OK.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COSBY: Wild to hear. And de Lesseps was taken to jail and charged with disorderly intoxication, trespassing and resisting an officer with
violence. As you can hear, lots of swear words there. But even though she was no sweetheart that night, she is asking for a sweetheart of a plea
deal, agreeing to plead guilty in exchange for just one year probation rather than years in prison.
And joining us now to talk about this is Tom Verni. He`s a former NYPD detective, also law enforcement consultant. And defense attorney Misty
Marris.
Misty, it`s an interesting case. I was actually at a social function with Luann. I`ve known Luann for a number of years. She walked me through this
case. She actually told me, she admitted she did. She sent a letter also apologizing to the cops. But a lot of people are looking and saying, well,
she got a sweetheart of a deal, but she does seem apologetic. But yet she could have faced a lot of jail time, right?
MARRIS: She certainly could have. She could have faced six-plus years. I mean, you`ve got some serious crimes here, when you`re talking about
assaulting an officer and threatening an officer. These are felony charges. But I`ve got to say, Rita, when you have a first-time offender in a case
like this --
COSBY: No criminal record.
MARRIS: It is not -- with no criminal record and somebody who is repentant and is getting the chance to go to rehab and to change, it`s not unusual to
see a plea deal like this. It is not a sweetheart deal. I don`t think so.
COSBY: But people are going wait a minute, she was swearing at the cop. She left that out in our conversation, by the way. But, you know, when you
hear the language, it was like F you, F you, pushing the cops. Granted, she was drunk. And she said she was very, very drunk. And I`ve met her, she`s
always very poised when I`ve seen her. But that`s a pretty serious thing.
MARRIS: Certainly it is. It`s serious charges. And it was a serious issue that she was a part of. However, again, these types of plea deals, I
actually think she was treated more harshly because she is a reality star. She`s everything is in the press. She`s faced with these three felony
charges.
For a first-time offender, you`re going to see these charges be reduced. This is very common when you`re talking about people who are willing to be
rehabilitated. And she did so. Let`s not forget. She went right to rehab.
COSBY: She`s in rehab now, by the way. As of I learned a few minutes ago.
MARRIS: And not for nothing. If she violates that parole, if she violates her probation --
COSBY: Everyone will know.
MARRIS: If she violates her probation, then she is going to face these same charges. So she`s not out of the woods. So to think that this is a
slap on the wrist, it certainly is not.
COSBY: Tom Verni, as a cop, and you heard the language about a cop, I feel like cops` jobs are tough enough. Granted, she doesn`t have a criminal
record. But, you know, there were some pretty harsh words to the cop. Are you happy with this deal? Do you think this is a good message?
TOM VERNI, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: I don`t know. You know, I have mixed feelings about this. Alcohol is the devil.
(LAUGHTER)
VERNI: Right? And when I was on patrol dealing with people who were severely intoxicated and then wanting to fight with you, it was always a
nightmare. It`s always a nightmare. I agree to some extent with Misty that -- while I agree to the fact that because she had no criminal record that
she was going to get let off easier for sure. That always happens, happens all the time, right?
COSBY: But are you surprised she`s getting none if this deal is accepted, which it likely will?
VERNI: Right. Listen, I`ve had friends that are alcoholics, they`ve gone through the program, and they kind of got back on track. So I can
appreciate that also. But assaulting a police officer is a very serious thing and you don`t want someone to get away with that on a light, light
sentence.
COSBY: Yeah. Some serious words. And something could have happened much more serious to the officer too as well. But she is getting rehab. Very
interesting. Like you said, more dramatic off air than on air. Who would have ever thought that?
MARRIS: Stranger than fiction.
COSBY: Sure is. Good line. And coming up, yoga classes can be awkward. Awkward positions with strangers. But what happens when awkward turns to
downright illegal? We have a wild story. That`s coming up next.
[18:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And one more thing tonight. You`ve heard of getting buff at the gym. That`s a good idea. Doing it in the buff, well, that`s not such a good
idea. But a guy named Eric Stagno gave it a try at Planet Fitness in New Hampshire. Police say he walked in, took off his clothes, and started doing
yoga on a mat.
[19:00:00] Stagno is not even a member of the gym. He was arrested and charged with indecent exposure, lewdness, and disorderly conduct. told
police he thought Planet Fitness was a judgment-free zone. Apparently referring to the gym`s slogan. More like poor judgment on his part.
The next hour of CRIME AND JUSTICE starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The courtroom was packed with family members and friends of fallen firefighters Larry Ledgeio and John Mesh. Both died
while fighting a fire set by salon owner Tu Hong Nguyen in October 2015. And the process continues.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: See what happens from here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The outcome. Nguyen would face life in prison.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Those firefighters didn`t deserve it, especially if it was deliberately set.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Detectives say Asgeirr Ulfr had already done something to hurt 20-year-old Christina Danielle Scar when he has seen
walking out of her house pretending to be a victim himself. He told them he was shot in the foot and Scar was hit by a home invader. But now
detectives say it was all a lie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s our belief that he had planned to do this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ulfr, from victim now to suspect.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A real housewife in real trouble in the back of a police cruiser.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don`t touch me. I`m going to kill you. I`ll kill you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Found drunk in a Florida hotel, refusing to leave a room, allegedly hitting an officer in the head.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Listen. I`m going to hog tie you if you don`t stop.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The latest on Luann De Lesseps` drunken run-in with the law.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COSBY: And good evening, everybody. I`m Rita Cosby in for Ashleigh Banfield.
This is the second hour of CRIME AND JUSTICE.
Nail salons are usually a place to relax. But Missouri prosecutors say the owner of one Kansas city salon intentionally turned her business into a
place of danger, setting the whole building on fire just so she could get the insurance money. And they say Thu Wong Nguyen did the exact same thing
in another location.
But when she started a three-alarm blaze in the fall of 2015, you can see it there very dramatic, setting flammable liquids on fire in her storeroom,
that fire resulted in fatalities. Two of the responding firefighters were crushed to death by a crumbling brick wall in the alley leaving behind a
community in mourning. Two others also were gravely injured. And when Nguyen was charged with murder, assault, arson and also causing a
catastrophe with the chance of spending the rest of her life behind bars.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I feel sorry for her. She has got kids. She has got kids that look like they range from 12 to 17. But at the same time those
firefighters didn`t deserve it, especially if it was deliberately set.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And joining me now to talk about all of this is Nan Yates. She is an investigative reporter. Rich Meier is a fire and explosives
investigator with Meyer fire investigation. Also Tom Verni, former NYPD detective and law enforcement consultant, and defense attorney Misty
Marris.
Nan, let me start with you now. Because take us to what firefighters encountered because this was a horrible blaze. One of the firefighters
that was a veteran firefighter basically said this was the worst blaze that he had seen, just the intensity of it, in his 25 years on the job.
Describe what authorities encountered when they got to the scene of the building where the hair salon is in, where the nail salon is in.
NAN YATES, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER (on the phone): Well, Rita, you can see the pictures that are online on your site. They are phenomenal. I mean,
they are so devastating. You wouldn`t want to be anywhere within blocks of a blaze with this magnitude. Horrific blaze. And anytime something burns
this quickly this badly, that sets off alarms in firefighters` and arson investigators` minds. And that`s what happened here.
COSBY: About 100 firefighters, Nan, I understand. I mean, huge response.
YATES: There was a tremendous response. And there`s also been a community out-lash at, you know, take a look at this, investigate, investigate.
Well, once they began investigating, they found much more than they ever thought they would.
COSBY: Now, also, tragically, I want to get to just -- I think firefighters, Nan, I think cops, firefighters, EMT, all those folks are
such heroes. Their jobs are tough enough as it is. And you have got firefighters, two of them were seriously injured and two of them, Nan, lost
their lives. Right? Describe what happened as they responded to this fire.
YATES: Well, they were trying to get the fire under control when a brick wall collapsed. And if you know this area, which obviously our viewers do
not, but this is a historic area in Kansas City. So it`s a very old, old brick building, as you can imagine. So when a fire with this intensity
starts burning, you know, they are surrounding this and they have got, you know, they are radioing each other, if you can imagine, and then -- I mean,
it happened within seconds that this wall, huge brick wall came down, collapsed, killing -- immediately killing two firefighters and severely
wounding two others.
[19:05:31] COSBY: And then they start piecing it together, Nan, because then they realize, there`s some surveillance footage. And this woman who
owns the salon happens to what -- she is across the street crying when it happens at a supermarket, Boo-Hoo Hoo, but apparently at the time, soon
before, they see on surveillance video that she leaves, what, it`s about 13 minutes before the fire starts and then they notice some interesting things
in the storage room. Walk us through that.
YATES: She was the last one out. OK? And somebody that had actually seen the blaze go up. All right? Saw her leave. And that`s when the questions
began. This, you know, how could this happen? How could she leave so quickly? This is a nail salon, OK? What kind of chemicals are already
there? I mean, I`m sure you have had your nails done. I have had my nails done. We know just spending half an hour, an hour in a nail salon, it`s
toxic.
So the acetone, the types of chemicals that are already there. It`s a potential inferno. And so, you know, a supply room at a nail salon. So
you can just imagine. And you talked about piecing this together. When they started piecing this together with the other pieces, there were
catastrophic events with several of the salons she has been involved with over the last decade. So overall the last decade.
COSBY: Yes. And in fact, she admitted to authorities that she got 50,000 bucks for one of them in the past and that was of course revisited.
Let me go to Richard Meier.
Richard, you are a fire and explosion investigator. How did they piece it together to determine that it was arson versus, you know, accident or just
something happening like an electrical fire? How did they actually pull it together and make that determination?
RICH MEIER, FIRE AND EXPLOSION INVESTIGATOR: Well, the first thing a fire investigator looks for is the origin of a fire and generally finds that by
looking at fire patterns or the marks that are left by the fire. In this particular case, they actually found two separate fire origins, one in the
storage room, one at Miss Nguyen`s work station. The fire had apparently gone out early on its own. When you have two separate points of origin,
that`s a definite pointer to the probability that the fire is intentionally set.
COSBY: And you know Richard, it`s also -- I don`t want any of us to lose sight of the fact that two heroic firefighters lost their lives. Also two
others who were very seriously injured. I mean, one of them to the point where he`s not back on the job. He had to retire as a result of it. How
tough is it for firefighters when they go into this kind of situation, Richard Meier?
MEIER: For the firefighters very tough. I have never been a firefighter myself, but I have been around a lot of, you know, research burns. And
just the intensity of a fire, within a matter of minutes it can go from normal room temperature to, you know, well over 1,000 degrees. And the --
just the sheer heat that firefighters are exposed to let alone lugging all the equipment in just their protective gear is an enormous task. Normally
you`ll see firefighters, you know, coming out almost passing out, drinking gallons of water. It is a really hard job.
COSBY: Yes, you bet.
I want to go to Tom Verni, former NYPD detective, also law enforcement consultant.
Tom, as we hear all this, first she has inconsistent stories. That`s one thing. Then they also see that there`s some items there. She admits to
purchasing ultimately a number of items. Acetone, a number of other things. Some of them are used there at a nail salon. I get my nails done.
A lot of us get our nails done. But some of these were very unusual and they piece it together. How key are the forensics in this case? I think
very, very troubling.
TOM VERNI, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: Yes. Well, I would like to offer my condolences to the Leggio and mesh family, of course. This is just
horrific.
First of all, this is an opportunistic, greedy mutant that we are talking about here. This is just unbelievable to me and unconscionable that you
have firefighters trying to do their job and they go to a place where they are trying to save a building, think that maybe there are lives they need
to go save. And now because you have someone who is so unbelievably greedy that they need to burn down their place to get insurance money, it`s just
infuriating to me that people would actually risk the lives of others to satisfy their own wealth.
Now, as far as the forensics here, as your other guest just mentioned, you know, there`s always going to be a tipoff, right? As to whether or not
this was something accidental, was it electrical or was it something that was intentionally set.
Clearly, by the fact there were two different points of origin here with the fire, that initially is going to raise the hair on the back of their
necks and say OK, this doesn`t seem natural, and then they`re going to go from there. And then of course you want to incorporate any video
surveillance that may catch the person or persons involved to sear they came into and if they are carrying materials that may have been found
having to do with the fire.
[19:10:48] COSBY: And she`s coincidentally the last person out, Tom Verni.
VERNI: It is amazing.
COSBY: Come on, you know. That`s an awfully --
VERNI: Shocking.
COSBY: Yes, awfully shocking.
I want to read through because you talked about, Tom, the two firefighters who died. And it is just, you know, how tough. You are going into
something, it was a three-story building. The place was on the bottom. By the way, there were also apartments up on top too, and other businesses.
So think of how many people could have lost their lives for this loony tune, this woman doing this.
Also, the two ones who survived, some of the injuries. One of them has a broken -- four broken ribs. The other one -- same one, rather, continuing
infection where he`s actually vomiting three to four times a day, cannot sleep. The other one was right there seeing his comrade die.
Misty Marris, this is absolutely horrific. All for money. You explain how you could defend this woman.
MISTY MARRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, first I have to say the fact these firefighters lost their lives and these other two have such serious
repercussions from this is absolutely horrific. But from a defense perspective, and that`s what we, do innocent until proven guilty, right?
So you defend your client. What you do is say this is circumstantial evidence, you don`t have her dead to rights on intentionally starting the
fire. And that`s what you are going to see her defense attorney --
COSBY: So it just happened -- before I let you go further let me go to Nan Yates.
Because Nan, she has got a history of happened to be leaving the place. Right? Tell us what happened on another case that she`s also charged with.
YATES: OK? She has been -- OK, we talked about the payout earlier of the $50,000 insurance. I think there has been, if I`m not mistaken, 14
insurance claims associated with Nguyen, OK. And their payout, totaled more than a quarter of a million dollars. So, you know, calling her names
is I`m sure is justified in this, you know, greedy at the very least.
And to have such a blatant disregard for human life when -- oh, gee, I think I need $50,000, I think I`ll set a fire. And without a second
thought that it could kill someone. And someone mentioned the lives that were lost and the lives affected cannot be, you know, overstated. It`s one
of the more horrific tragedies that have happened here in the Kansas city area that quite a long time.
COSBY: You bet, Nan. My prayers are with all of you. And of course the fire department there especially. My goodness.
Misty Marris, 14 -- you just heard from Nan, 14 times. Another case where she is now charged with arson where she happened to be leaving again. Just
all circumstance, right? Is that what you would -- actually some juror`s going to believe that?
MARRIS: Yes, look. Any lawyer is going to argue there are no prior convictions relating to those 14 other cases, right? They are insurance
payouts. So a lawyer is going to say this shouldn`t even get before a jury, the fact you have these prior insurance claims.
COSBY: But it shows a pattern of motive.
MARRIS: That`s the argument. But then the judge will always weigh is this more prejudicial or probative. So certainly it comes down to the courtroom
and whether the judge lets it in. If that gets, in you have got a really tough time as a defense attorney.
COSBY: I`m glad you`re admitting that one.
MARRIS: You know, I have defense attorneys have a tough job but everyone is entitled to a vigorous defense.
COSBY: Very true. Even as crazy as it sometimes may sound. Thank you very much.
And most of us when we are turned down on a date, we move on. We try again later. But in Florida, a rebuffed request may have ended in a brutal
murder. We will outline it all for you and that is coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:19:12] COSBY: And this is Rita Cosby in for Ashleigh Banfield.
We are tracking a spine-tingling story out of Florida where prosecutors are trying to pin down the young man who they say ambushed his crush,
strangling her to death at her home. 26-year-old Asgeirr Ulfr had reportedly hooked up with his co-worker, a hostess, where they both worked
at Olive Garden, who even let him live in her house. But Christina Scar moved on quite quickly and Asgeirr Ulfr seemingly did not.
Prosecutors say he hid in her closet before she and her new boyfriend went to bed and waited for him to leave in the morning. That`s when they say
Ulfr disguised himself and attacked Christina, leaving behind a scene so violent we can`t even show you the full evidence photo. But we can show
you just a partial image which I will warn you right now is very disturbing.
It shows Christina`s wrists bound with duct tape. You can see it there. As she lays topless and lifeless on the floor. And it wasn`t just her
hands. Her entire face was wrapped in duct tape, which prosecutors say Ulfr did before placing this chilling call to 911.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:20:29] ASGEIRR ULFR, SUSPECT: I don`t know if my friend`s breathing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Where you were you shot at?
ULFR: My foot. I was shot in my foot.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You said you`re not breathing?
ULFR: I`m bleeding.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, I need you to take a deep breath, ok? I do have help on the way to you, OK. Do you know if the assailant is still there?
ULFR: No, I don`t -- I think I saw them leaving through the back yard.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How old is your friend?
ULFR: She`s 20. She`s 20.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Is she awake?
ULFR: I don`t know. I can`t tell if she`s breathing or not. She is tied up. She is tied up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She is tied up, OK. Where is she shot?
ULFR: She wasn`t -- I don`t think she was shot. I don`t see any blood around her at all. She`s -- she looks like she was beaten up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know when this happened?
ULFR: No. I -- I -- I just got here. I just got here. I was dropping off the key. It doesn`t really look like she`s breathing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You don`t see her chest rising?
ULFR: No. - no. Oh, my God. Right now she`s on the floor. She`s duct taped to the bed and her face is duct taped. Her face is duct taped.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you go ahead and take the duct tape off if she`s not breathing? We need to go ahead and start CPR.
ULFR: I don`t -- I don`t -- I don`t have anything to take the duct tape off of. I don`t have anything to take the duct tape off with. I don`t --
I don`t see a knife or anything. OK. I think someone`s here. I think someone`s here. Yes! Police come in. I`m in the back room!
OK, I`m coming.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COSBY: Well, it sounded pretty convincing but investigators soon encountered a problem with Ufr`s story. There seemed to be no concrete
evidence that anyone had broken into the house. But Ulfr seemed to have his own ideas about the monster who had murdered his friend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know Danielle to -- why anybody would want to do this to her?
ULFR: Kind of. Maybe.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
ULFR: I know from what she told me she was seeing a couple guys and maybe one of them wasn`t -- wasn`t OK with or found out or something or at least
I know she was interested in a couple of different guys. And I know she actively started seeing them yet. I know some guys are crazy, they are
possessive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And Ulfr might have been right, saying a possessive guy may be behind Christina`s death because Ulfr reportedly told his lawyer that he
had attacked her himself. He apparently only did it to scare her before he planned to show up and rescue her. But now he is facing the death penalty
and he`s up against a mountain of evidence.
Joining us to talk about all of this is Ray Caputo. He`s an anchor and reporter with 96.5 WDBO. Also Joseph Scott Morgan, certified death
investigator and professor of forensics at Jacksonville state university. And defense attorney Misty Marris.
Let`s continue with you, ray. Let me go to you. This is so incredible. I want to play a little bit of his story. Because when you hear Asgeirr
Ulfr`s story, this is how he described when he arrived at the house, this is his concocted scheme of his arriving at the house. And this is in the
police interview when he talked to the cops.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you get to her house, was she home? Was she awake?
ULFR: When I got to her house, the door was open. It was ajar. It wasn`t shut all the way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you walk in? Did you call for her or anything? You did?
ULFR: Yes. I walked in. I said, hey, Nellie. I said hey, Nellie, your door was open. I just wanted to drop off the storage key. I said, are you
in the bathroom or something? And I got a glass of water.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she ever answer you back?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Ray Caputo, when you hear that, he`s worried supposedly about her, and then he goes and gets a glass of water. Did I hear that right, Ray
Caputo?
RAY CAPUTO, ANCHOR/REPORTER, NEWS 96.5 WDBO: Yes, Rita. I mean, he was really nonchalant, you know. And in fact, when he was interviewed in the
hospital, the way the interview started, it was just really odd like he had this nervous laugh. And you know, I put myself in his position, if I had
just found a friend in that position, and it was shot by an intruder in the foot, you know, I would be a little more shaken up. So, you know, Ulfr`s
demeanor just really -- on top of a mountain of evidence points to the fact that he is the perpetrator in this crime.
[19:25:17] COSBY: Yes, it`s really incredible. When you just hear like weird behavior, those kind of go alarm bells. He also claimed, and this
was so weird, that it was a woman who did it, that he, you know, tried to fight off the attacker. But here`s him explaining to the cops that a
female was behind this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I started walking into the back, and I saw her on the ground and I said oh, my god. Oh, my god, Nellie, are you OK? And that`s
when the person came out of the bathroom and had a gun up to me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So how many people were there?
ULFR: At this point I just saw one.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did that person look like?
ULFR: About my height. Had a black mask on, a black hoodie. I think they had boobs, breasts, whatever.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breasts? It was a female?
ULFR: I believe so. Blue jeans. Either they were black or they were wearing gloves. I swatted at the gun because I don`t want to die. And
that`s when they shot me in the foot. And they bolted for the door. And when they left, that`s when I saw someone else jump the fence.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COSBY: What an unbelievable tale of fiction.
Ray Caputo, let`s describe what cops found. And I want to show the picture because this is her hands bound. And again, everybody -- this image is
disturbing. It`s very disturbing. We can`t show you anymore. She was topless and her face was duct taped. But describe what cops found and what
he claims he found, Ray Caputo.
CAPUTO: Oh, it was just a sad scene, Rita. She was lying next to her bed, nothing but her underwear on, and her legs were bound with black zip ties.
And there was a sloppy duct tape job. Her hands were duct taped in front of her. And her face was duct taped but it wasn`t clean. It wasn`t just a
clean piece of duct tape over her mouth or eyes. It was just this sloppy duct tape job that was all over her face covering her eyes, you now, part
of her nose, her mouth. I mean, it was just a really scary thing for investigators to walk into.
And I have seen those crime photos too. A lot of times us reporters are not privy to those. But you know, I can`t stop thinking about them. It`s
very disturbing what I have seen and what investigators must have seen when they walked into that home.
COSBY: Yes, absolutely. Joseph Scott Morgan, I want to go to you for the evidence to talk about this because I can`t imagine. When you see it.
It`s so upsetting. And again, just because she rebuffed him, it`s not even clear if there was a relationship. It certainly seemed like it was one
sided on his part. What is it like to die like that? I mean, she was tied to the bed. We have a shot of the bed too apparently where -- because she
was tied basically duct taped to the bed and then also duct taped over her face. Joseph Scott Morgan, how horrific.
SCOTT JOSEPH MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: Yes, it really is, Rita. We have got a case here that`s involving apparently an asphyxia type
death. Now, we don`t know if this was as a result of her being choked or this was as a result of her being kind ever smothered with this tape. But
we do know that her airway was occluded. One of the reports that I`m hearing is that there was actually hemorrhage into the soft tissues of the
neck and the larynx and this sort of thing and also another point of order here is the fact she`s got petechial (ph) in the eyes. These are small
pint print (ph) hemorrhages where the vessels because of the interior pressure that`s built up as a result of the exclusion of oxygen these
little vessels burst and this is indicative of an asphyxia death. One other point here --.
COSBY: You are talking about strangling, right? Just for lay people.
MORGAN: Yes. Right, yes. So strangling. This is an asphyxia death. Somebody can use a C-clamp or a ligature. There`s any number of ways. But
also suffocation. Remember, Rita, she`s got this tape over her face, over her mouth and nose.
One of the things that`s significant, one of the things we look for in interpersonal crimes is this idea of face covering. That is, if someone
knows another individual, many times it will be an effort to cover the eyes so they don`t have to look at this individual under these horrific
circumstances.
COSBY: And indeed he is now looking at the death penalty. We are going to talk a lot more about the case and how he got busted and what happens.
That`s coming up next.
[19:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:35:05] RITA COSBY, HLN HOST: And this is Rita Cosby in for Ashleigh Banfield. We are still talking about the Florida man charged with murder.
After he suggested a home intruder was responsible for his co-worker`s death. But as Asgeirr Ulfr reportedly told his attorney a very different
story, allegedly saying that he was the one to attack Christina Scarr in an effort to get her to like him. His plan was apparently to disguise himself
and simply give her a scare before he reappeared as her hero. But Christina ended up dead, and the evidence is piling up against Ulfr, and it
is disturbing. Like this small part of a crime scene photo. Because this is really all we can show you. It shows Christina`s wrists wrapped in duct
tape. Police say Ulfr wrapped her whole face in duct tape, too, leaving her topless dead body on the floor. So, disturbing to see.
And we continue now with our panel. I want to go, first, if I could, to Joseph Scott Morgan because you recognized something interesting. We saw
those hands so sadly bound of beautiful Christina, and there was an interesting mark on her fingers. I want you to describe it because you
noticed that, Joseph.
JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: Yes, I did, Rita. There is an interesting -- what we refer to as a pattern injury on one of
her fingers, and it is -- it appears to be almost in a pattern of four little dots. And there`s also an adjacent one, and it`s almost as if
something was held flush against this. This isn`t just kind of a passing insult as we would refer to it. This is something that contacted, pressed
it, and this sort of thing.
And one of the things I`m kind of toying with in my mind, I`m wondering if he wasn`t trying to get her to submit in some way in this kind of violent
attack, which -- you know, which apparently took place -- the crime scene photos, I can`t even begin to describe them at this point. It`s a horrific
scene. So, we have this one-on-one contact with him. He`s trying to get her to submit. And he does this frenetic job of trying to cover her face
and her neck. The other thing interesting, when you see the images of him now, Rita, he`s got some marks on his face that are quite interesting as
well. Almost consistent with, I don`t know, defensive injuries, as if he`s trying to fight somebody off in the midst of a struggle.
COSBY: So sad. So she was it looks like trying to fight back. Ray Caputo, they finally bust him. Explain some of the forensics that tied
him.
RAY CAPUTO, ANCHOR, NEWS 96.5 WDBO: Well, first off, there`s an electronic trail, Rita. They didn`t have a credit card receipt from the Wal-Mart
because apparently he paid cash. But investigators did a clever job of finding the Wal-Mart. Actually, they had it first tracked on the fact that
it was a Wal-Mart. But they went and pulled surveillance video and they found the UPC codes, and they got the guy on video purchasing evidence that
was found at the crime scene, duct tape, those zip ties, all different sorts of things. So, they got, they got surveillance video in the car, and
then the most damning piece of evidence are his own words that he made to his attorney.
Now, there is that thing called attorney-client privilege, but he was talking to his attorney while his sister was right next to him. So, his
sister spilled the beans, and he admitted that this was a plan gone wrong. He wanted to be this young lady`s savior, he had a plan that he was going
to burst out of the closet, and attack her, tie her up, and then he was going to be the one that found her. And by his own admission, it was a
plan that went terribly, terribly wrong. So, there is just a mountain, a mountain of evidence against Ulfr. And you know, I would bet my bottom
dollar that he`s going to be convicted. I think the only question now is whether or not he`s going to get life in prison or death.
COSBY: Well -- and also, this guy is -- seems like a real sick dude. I want to show a little bit of what the sister -- you brought up the sister
there, Ray, because she says that he also killed the family`s cat. I want to show a quote. This is apparently what she told to authorities
afterwards, where he was basically sort of staging, you know, the death of this cat. And the sister says to authorities, "advised me while they were
staying at their grandmother`s, and one night while everyone was sleeping, he brought his grandmother`s cat outside and sat on it, strangled it,
killing the cat. The cat was so old he placed it back in the house and everyone thought it died of old age." Sort of sounds like a Jeffrey Dahmer
thing. Misty Marris, if you`re defending this guy, he`s already said, I did it. He had this crazy hero complex. And obviously, it went too far.
He was just going to scare her. And it turns out he ends up killing her.
MISTY MARRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, first of all, I think that what you`re going to see a defense attorney do is go back to the fact that the
prosecution`s theory of the case really comes from this privileged conversation, a conversation that should have been just between the
attorney and the client. Now, it`s --
COSBY: How -- I was going to say how is that privileged? It`s the -- and it`s an interesting case you have, too, because that is a fascinating case.
I would argue that if I were the defense attorney. But it`s the sister overhearing it. It`s not a conversation between the attorney and client.
[19:40:07] MARRIS: So, now, she`s overhearing the conversation that should have been between the attorney and client, right? Well, yes. Privilege
can be broken when there`s a third person in the room and there`s no expectation of privacy. But you`re going to see a defense attorney bring
that argument because now if that statement`s going to come in, the sister`s statement, well, now it`s hearsay. So now, you have to overcome a
hearsay exception.
COSBY: So, let`s throw out the evidence. Let`s pretend in a perfect world, I think it`s going to be hard but let`s see if it happens. OK, if
it does, then there`s still the evidence, there`s still the text messages, there`s the motive. He`s hiding in the closet, apparently, the night
before. He lies about it. It`s not like he turns himself in. There`s a lot of forensics also to back this.
MARRIS: Certainly, there`s enough forensics here that you`re going to see this case go to trial. Certainly, you`re going to get an indictment here.
But what you`re going to see a defense attorney do in that situation is try and downgrade this as much as they can. We`re going to look back to the
mental health history that we spoke about before. We`re going to have an attorney saying, look, this is a mistake and this should be downgraded from
a murder one to a murder two or a manslaughter. And that`s -- the defense is going to try to save his life.
COSBY: As opposed to the death penalty.
MARRIS: Exactly.
COSBY: All right. Well, Christina unfortunately isn`t here to give a witness statement, sadly, for that. Thank you very much. Well, he was one
of the most notorious serial killers in American history. And tonight, investigators are using facial reconstruction to try and identify more of
John Wayne Gacy`s victims. Photos of the remains of two of the victims has helped generate these new life-like computer images in the more than 40-
year-old case. They were recreated by a forensic artist showing what the victims may have looked like in the early 1970s. Gacy began raping and
murdering boys and men in the Chicago area, one of the most well-known serial killers ever. And in 1978, he was arrested and convicted of 33
murders. Now, there is finally hope that two more victims may finally be identified.
And we all remember "Real Housewives" star Luann de Lesseps and her profanity-laced tirade and assault on a Palm Beach Police officer. Well,
now it appears she just might be avoiding jail time. How is that? We are going to break that down. That`s coming up next.
[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And this is Rita Cosby in for Ashleigh Banfield. Well, it might not shock you to hear that a Real Housewife got drunk and feisty, but the
fights for which they`re famous don`t always result in formal charges, with the possibility of years in prison. Luann de Lesseps isn`t just any
housewife, though. She is the star of the New York series known nationwide, and she is known as The Countess. But her behavior was less
than ladylike at a Florida hotel last Christmas eve when police say she drunkenly refused to leave her room, slamming the door on an officer`s head
before she was carted off to the cruiser. That`s where she was caught on body cam trying to slip out of her cufflinks. You can see it there.
Before she said the words that she would absolutely later regret.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OFFICER: Stop resisting. Stop resisting.
LUANN DE LESSEPS: Why? Why? Why? Oh my god, I`m going to get -- I`m going to get you. I`m going to get you big time. You`re going to be so
bad. You`re going to be so bad. That you`ve done nothing -- I`ve done nothing wrong. I`ve done nothing wrong, and you`re handcuffing me. Guess
what?
OFFICER: What?
DE LESSEPS: I`m not getting into your car.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. No, no, no. (INAUDIBLE)
DE LESSEPS: I`m not getting in that car. I`ve done nothing wrong. I`ve done nothing wrong.
(CROSSTALK)
DE LESSEPS: No. No, I want my shoes and my bag and my stuff. Don`t touch me. Don`t touch me. I`m going to kill you. I`ll kill you. I will kill
you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whoa, whoa, whoa.
DE LESSEPS: For what? But what did I do? I did nothing wrong. Don`t touch me. Don`t touch me. Don`t touch me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s buckling you so you --
DE LESSEPS: Don`t touch me. Don`t touch me.
OFFICER: Sit back. Watch your feet.
DE LESSEPS: No. No. They`re my friends -- my friend is staying here. My friend -- don`t touch me.
OFFICER: Listen to me, I`m going to hog-tie you if you don`t stop. Do you understand what I`m telling you right now?
DE LESSEPS: So what?
OFFICER: Stop.
DE LESSEPS: What did I do?
OFFICER: Leave your feet in the vehicle.
DE LESSEPS: What did I do wrong?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Luann, just relax. Relax. OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[19:49:51] COSBY: Wild to hear. And de Lesseps was taken to jail and charged with disorderly intoxication, trespassing, and resisting an officer
with violence. As you can hear, lots of swear words there. But even though, she was no sweetheart that night, she is asking for a sweetheart of
a plea deal, agreeing to plead guilty in exchange for just one year probation, rather than years in prison.
And joining us now to talk about this is Tom Verni, he`s the former NYPD detective, also law enforcement consultant; and defense attorney Misty
Marris. Misty, it`s an interesting case. I was actually at a social function with Luann. I`ve known Luann for a number of years. She walked
me through this case. She told me, she admitted she did it, she sent a letter also apologizing to the cops. But a lot of people are looking and
saying, well, she got a sweetheart of a deal, but she does seem apologetic, but yet, she could have faced a lot of jail time, right?
MARRIS: She certainly could have. She could have faced six plus years. I mean, you`ve had a -- some serious crimes here, when you`re talking about
assaulting an officer and threatening an officer, these are felony charges. But I`ve got to say, Rita, when you have a first-time offender in a case
like this, it is not --
COSBY: No criminal records.
MARRIS: With no criminal record, and somebody who is repentant and is getting the chance to go to rehab and to change, it`s not unusual to see a
plea deal like this. It is not a sweetheart deal, I don`t think so.
COSBY: So, people are watching and going, wait a minute, she was swearing at the cops. She left that out in our conversation, by the way, but you
know, when you hear the language, it was like F.U., F.U., pushing the cops. Granted she was drunk, and she said she was very, very drunk and I`ve met
her in a very -- she`s always poised when I`ve seen her. But that`s a pretty serious thing.
MARRIS: And it certainly it is. It`s serious charges, and it was a serious issue that she was a part of. However, again, these types of plea
deals, I actually think she was treated more harshly because she is a reality star. She`s -- everything is in the press. She`s faced to these
three felony charges. For a first-time offender, you`re going to see these charges be reduced. This is very common when you`re talking about people
who are willing to be rehabilitated. And she did so. Let`s not forget, she went right to rehab, she cleaned out --
COSBY: She`s in rehab, by the way, as I`ve learned a few minutes ago. So --
MARRIS: And not for nothing. If she violates that parole, if she violates her probation --
COSBY: Everyone will know.
MARRIS: If she violates her probation -- but she is going to face these same charges. So, she`s not out of the woods. So, to think that this is a
slap on the wrist, it certainly is not.
COSBY: Tom Verni, as a cop, and you hear the language about a cop, I feel like cop`s jobs are tough enough. Granted she doesn`t have a criminal
record, but you know, there were some pretty harsh words to the cop. Are you happy with this deal? Do you think this is a good message?
TOM VERNI, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE AND LAW ENFORCEMENT CONSULTANT: I don`t know. You know, I have mixed feelings about this. I -- alcohol is the
devil, right? And when I was on patrol, dealing with people who are, you know, severely intoxicated and then wanting to fight with you is always a
nightmare. It`s always a nightmare. You know, I agree to some extent with Misty that -- yes, and well, I agree to the fact that because she had no
criminal record that she was going to get let off easier, for sure, that always happens, it happens all the time, right?
COSBY: Which is probably she`s getting none if this deal is accepted, which it likely will.
VERNI: Right. And, you know, I -- listen, I`ve had friends that are real alcoholics, they`ve gone through the program and they, you know, kind of
got back on track. And so, I can appreciate that also. But assaulting a police officer is a very serious thing. And I -- and you don`t want
someone to get away with that on a light, light sentence.
COSBY: Yes. No, some serious words, and something could have happened much more serious to the officer, too, as well, but she is getting rehab.
Very interesting. Like you said, a more dramatic off air than on air. Who would have ever thought that?
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: It sure is. Good line. And coming up, yoga classes can be awkward, awkward positions with strangers. But what happens when awkward
turns to downright illegal? We have a wild story, that`s coming up next.
[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And "ONE MORE THING" tonight in New Hampshire where the state motto is Live free or die, one man took it to the extremes at a local Planet
Fitness. Police say Eric Stagno walked in, took off his clothes, and started doing yoga on a mat. Stagno is not a member even of the gym.
Stagno told police that he thought Planet Fitness was a judgment-free zone, apparently referring to the gym`s slogan. But now, Stagno will face
judgment in a court of law. He was arrested and charged with indecent exposure, lewdness, and disorderly conduct.
And we will see you back here tomorrow night at 6:00 p.m. Eastern Time. You can listen to the show any time, download the podcast on Apple Podcast,
iHeart Radio, Stitcher, TuneIn, or wherever you get your podcast for your CRIME & JUSTICE fix. And be sure to follow me on Twitter @ritacosby and
you can also catch me on WABC Radio on my show, "Curtis & Cosby" every weekday from noon to 3:30 p.m. Eastern Time. Thanks for watching,
everybody. "FORENSIC FILES" begins right now.
END
