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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield

Woman Found Dead Near Hiking Trail; Family Mysteriously Turns Up And Dead. Aired 6-8p ET

Aired July 31, 2018 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[18:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dorms where both the victim and suspect lived are feet from the trail.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She went out on hikes. I know that a lot. And that is why the people that reported her missing were concerned that maybe she had

fallen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sarah Ellis of Seminole, Florida.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I definitely cried. It was yesterday when I first heard about it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators say her partially nude body was found one third of a mile down with bruises around her neck and head.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was a funny noise in the engine compartment.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn`t know that we were sinking. I knew that we had a problem.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I looked and saw a lot of water.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s no relationship between my having been the last person other than the killer to have seen my grandfather alive and my

having been on the boat with my mother when it sank.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody has any idea why.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don`t know where Mollie is at right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How this could happen in a place like Brooklyn, Iowa.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is not consistent with her past.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For her in particular, we hope this brings closure and enables her to move on with her life.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A former University of Virginia student accused of raping another student will not serve time behind bars as part of a plea

deal.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We believe that had we gone to trial, he would have been acquitted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RITA COSBY, GUEST HOST, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE: And good evening, everybody. I`m Rita Cosby, in for Ashleigh Banfield. This is "Crime and

Justice."

Tonight, a young man is charged with murder after reporting his own coworker missing, but Derek Pendergraft`s story started to quickly change

when that coworker was found in the woods. She wasn`t far from the inn where both of them lived and worked, but Sarah Ellis was dead, bruised, and

half naked, lying off the trail they had supposedly been hiking when Derek said it started to rain. At first, he said Sara just turned back and when

he returned to the spot where he left her, he only saw her hat and umbrella, but it wasn`t long after he sounded the alarm that park rangers

found Sara`s body. And then Derek told his manager, he killed her. When cops came for a second version of the story, Derek described an intense

blackout and coming to, shocked to see Sara`s lifeless body, but why`d he take her life? Blacked out or in cold blood is still a total mystery.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRUCE O`CONNELL, OWNER, PISGAH INN: He`d work here in housekeeping this entire season. How do you predict? How do you know when something like

this is going to happen? If someone could help me figure that out, I would love to know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY: Such a terrible story. And joining us now to talk about all of this is Sam DeGrave. He is a reporter for "the Asheville Citizens Times,"

also certified death investigator and professor of forensic at Jacksonville state University, Joseph Scott Morgan, defense attorney, Kenya Johnson is

also with us. And on the phone, we have Sara Ellis` sister, Carrie.

I want to start with you, Sam. This is such a horrible story. And it starts with a coworker who claims, at first, that his coworker, that the

two of them go for a hike. Describe what sort of happened here.

SAM DEGRAVE, REPORTER, THE ASHEVILLE CITIZENS TIMES: Hi, Rita. It was about 7:30 p.m. Tuesday, according to the FBI, that Sara Ellis was reported

missing. A criminal complaint filed in federal court says that it was Derek Pendergraft who reported her missing. He said that she and Sara and

he had gone hiking in about 4:00 p.m. earlier that day on a trail near where they lived in dormitories meant for employees of the Pisgah Inn off

the Blue Ridge parkway. He said that they went hiking and about an hour into -- or shortly into the hike, it began to rain, and Sara decided to

turn back. He said he continued going for about an hour before he turned around, and when he did go back, he saw her umbrella and hat and reported

her missing.

We found out later that that story wasn`t entirely true, as you mentioned a minute ago, but it was at the 10:30 p.m., roughly three hours after she was

reported missing that a search party found her body. Several, probably about a hundred yards down off of a narrow trail, not far, about half a

mile from where they lived.

COSBY: And you know, Sam, her body was found half-naked, I understand. Can you describe what her body looked like and what kind of damage, sadly,

was done to her body in terms of bruises?

DEGRAVE: Well, according to the complaint, there was bruising around her neck.

[18:05:00] The FBI agents who found her did not find any obvious penetrating trauma, such as would be caused by a gunshot or edged weapon,

according to the complaint. Derek, himself, when he spoke with investigators, again, according to the complaint, described her having a

purple face with her tongue sticking out a little bit and her eyes were gray.

COSBY: You know, Sam, what`s amazing is, you point out, it is only a few hours later, she is there just off the side of the road. By the way, I

know the Blue Ridge highway very, very well. It`s a beautiful area, but it`s a well-traveled road, so the body was found pretty soon afterwards,

thank goodness, at least they located her body, but then he changes his story, Sam. This is amazing. And he doesn`t change it to the cops, right?

He changes it to a manager at the Inn, where he and Sara both worked?

DEGRAVE: So, yes. It was about Wednesday at about 10:00 a.m., the media was notified that Sara had gone missing, although they didn`t initially --

the FBI didn`t initially identify her by name. At about 5:00 p.m. on Wednesday, they called it a homicide. Sometime after that, Derek went to

his general manager, the same person to whom he had reported Sara missing the day before and confessed.

She called the FBI and they came with a park ranger, as well, to interview Derek. We found out about all of this at about 11:30 on Thursday. But,

yes, it was some time after 5:00 p.m. Wednesday that he notified his general manager about what had happened. And she sat with him in her

office until the agent showed up, according to the owner and operator of the Pisgah Inn.

COSBY: Which is amazing. And the other detail, too, is that he claims that he blacked out, Sam. Tell us this, what I find absolutely

unbelievable version of events, that now this is his second version. And again, first he tells it to the manager, doesn`t tell the cops, the manager

thank goodness tells the cops, but he claims that when he is hiking with her and then blacks out, right?

DEGRAVE: Yes, he says they`re hiking together. That part of the story was consistent with what he initially said, but he just said that Sara decided

to turn around, and this is a quote from Pendergraft, listed in the complaint, he said, when I came to, I felt like it had not been a single

blink of time, I blinked and I was looking into the face of Sara, and he goes on to describe her, but that is the blackout at least as he have

described it and as we`ve been told he described it again in that complaint.

COSBY: Unbelievable. Let me go to Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigator. Joseph Scott Morgan, you hear this story. First of all, you

hear, "I blacked out and I woke up and she was gray in the eyes and purple, but, boy, I can`t remember anything in between." I find that unbelievable,

Joseph Scott Morgan.

JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, PROFESSOR OF FORENSIC, JACKSONVILLE STATE UNIVERSITY: Yes, I do too. It certainly gives one pause, doesn`t it? They`re talking

about these specific injuries that she has, Rita, this purple discoloration, protuberant tongue, these were thing many times. If I were

a faced with a case like this, one of the first things I would think about is a death as a result of asphyxia.

She has a heavily congested head at this point, which gives us the indication that she may have been strangled manually or potentially with a

ligature. Another thing that the authorities really need to watch out for here is trace evidence that has been left behind. You have alluded to the

fact that her clothing was left in disarray and she is in this provocative pose and so we want to be very, very careful about picking up trace

elements of evidence that are left behind. And one final thing on my part, I want to make sure that this time frame marries up with all of the --

everything else that is coming into play here.

He is saying one thing about when he last saw her. My hope is that the investigators at the scene did a postmortem interval evaluation on her

body. That is body temperature, also the presence of discoloration or postmortem lividity and rigor mortis. And that is going to kind of tighten

down the timeline a bit, since this happened in the recent past, as opposed to the distant past.

COSBY: Absolutely. Hopefully we can get some more details and some answers for her family. Absolutely. I want to show also a little image,

too, just to give everybody a sense of sort of where her body was found compared to where the Inn is. This is where again he claims they were

hiking. And you see the Pisgah Inn, this is where they both worked. She was a pantry cook, he is a housekeeper. She just started working there,

which is so sad. The employee housing, and again, where her body is found, all close by. It seems that they did like hiking, that she did enjoy

hiking. And here`s a little bit from the owner of the Inn, talking about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[18:10:07] O`CONNELL: Salads, desserts, cold food items. She was having a great time. As a matter of fact, she went out on hikes. I know that, a

lot. And that is why the people that reported her missing were concerned that maybe she had fallen when she was out on a hike.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY: And indeed, it looks like she went on a hike. That part may be correct, but I find hard to believe anything else that this guy says. I

want to bring in Carrie Ellis, who is the sister of beautiful Sara Ellis. And Carrie, first of all, thank you for joining us on such a difficult

time. Our heart breaks for you and the rest of the family. Did you know anything about this guy or any of her coworkers at the Inn? Did she ever

talk about that?

CARRIE ELLIS, SARA ELLIS`S SISTER: She did not. She had said that she was, you know, making a few friends and she liked her coworkers, but as far

as him specifically, his name, I have not heard anything indicating that she knew him well.

COSBY: Tell us about your beautiful sister. We`re seeing just this gorgeous face here and a life, obviously, snatched way too soon. Tell us a

little bit about her. We understand she was just -- she was a Christian, right? And someone who was just very respectful, didn`t just wander off

with people, either.

ELLIS: Absolutely. Sara was just so kind. She made friends with everyone she met. As you said, you know, she was a Christian and a great example of

one. She had just a bright light about her and, you know, it`s just -- of all people, I would never think this would happen to her.

COSBY: She also loved her time there at the Inn, right? She was enjoying her new job, Carrie?

ELLIS: She was. I spoke with her three days before this happened and, you know, she said she was really happy. She said that it was a safe place,

which is just so chilling now, but, you know, she felt comfortable there. She loved the area and she was just getting her life together.

COSBY: That is so heartbreaking. I want to bring in Kenya Johnson. She is defense attorney. Kenya, when you hear this and he has confessed, but

we don`t even know if he is telling the right story the second time, because he certainly didn`t tell it the first time, Kenya.

KENYA JOHNSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, this is definitely a tragedy. And that fact is not lost. However, this was a highly traveled trail. And

with employees all around, all we really have is him saying that he blacked out. He can`t provide any contextual details. And we cannot exclude the

fact that as he blacked out, someone else, a third party could have come into the scene and committed the crime.

COSBY: Kenya, he lied to the cops, Kenya. The first time he said she just disappeared and she went off her merry way, because it was raining. Then

he changed and then he said, I blacked out. Oops. Does anyone buy that story? Do you think a jury is going to buy that story, Kenya?

JOHNSON: Well, right now, we just don`t have enough information and --

COSBY: Well, we know enough, he is a liar. Kenya, you can see he is a liar, because he didn`t tell the right story, and he, again, didn`t confess

to the cops. He confessed to his manager.

JOHNSON: But he just doesn`t remember the right story. And so now we`ve got to figure out exactly what happened based on the forensics and not what

came out of his mouth.

COSBY: Well, we can`t trust anything that comes out of his mouth. I want to real quick go to Sam DeGrave. Sam, do we know what may be a motive in

this case? Because they just started working together. Do we have any idea what could have been the cause for this horrible, horrible tragedy,

this killing?

DEGRAVE: No, we don`t know at this point to the extent that -- the extent or nature of their relationship. The police who are investigating this,

federal investigators, rather, who are investigating this haven`t released any information about a possible motive. The -- an aunt to Sara said that

several times in the past, because as you mentioned her faith, she had -- she had turned away men who made unwanted sexual advances, but that is as

much as anybody`s offered as a possible motive.

COSBY: Well, he is charged now with second-degree murder. Thank you very, very much, Sam, and everybody on the panel. Thank you.

Well, we all know that the internet is forever and that is what the sisters of a murdered millionaire are counting on, as they try to link their nephew

to the death of his grandfather and the disappearance of his mother. Those details are next.

[18:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY: And this is Rita Cosby in for Ashleigh Banfield. Well, some grandparents really dote upon their grandkids. And Nathan Carman was one

lucky grandson, because his grandpa was a real estate developer, said to be worth over $40 million bucks. He reportedly paid for Nathan`s apartment

and his credit card.

[18:20:02] And when grandpa was mysteriously shot to death, Nathan got half of his checking account, but Nathan`s aunts say it was Nathan who shot him.

The last person to see his grandpa alive and allegedly the owner of a brand-new rifle with bullets that match the ones in grandpa`s body. Now

Nathan`s aunts are trying to keep him from getting even more money, especially after the fishing trip where Nathan`s mom mysteriously

disappeared.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NATHAN CARMAN, SUSPECT: Hello. Hello, this is Nathan Carman.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nathan, this is United States Coast Guard Boston. I need to understand what happened. Over.

CARMAN: Mom and I, two people, myself and my mom, were fishing near Block Canyon. And there was a funny noise in the engine compartment. I looked

and saw a lot of water. When I saw the life raft, I did not see my mom. Have you found her?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, we haven`t been able to find her yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY: And Linda Carman`s body was, however, never found, still to this day. And now her sisters are taking her son to court. Their own nephew,

who stands to gain millions on top of the money that has already been given as the only heir to the money his mom got from his grandpa`s death.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARMAN: I feel healthy. Um, I feel healthy. Emotionally, I`ve been through a huge amount. I would just like to thank the public for their

prayers and for their concern for both my mother and for myself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY: And I want to bring in our panel to talk about this. "New York" magazine reporter James Walsh. He is the author of "Playing against the

house, the dramatic world of an undercover union organizer." Also, CNN law enforcement analyst and retired FBI supervisory agent, James Gagliano. And

defense attorney, Kenya Johnson.

James, let`s start with you. Because you`ve done a lot of reporting on this, extensive, extensive work. And it`s so interesting, because this

story, first, take us back to this -- the original story now when the mom goes missing, but he is on a boat and the boat is called "Chicken Pox,"

that is a weird thing, to begin with, but take us to his version of what he says happened then.

JAMES WALSH, REPORTER, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: Right. Well, Nathan and his mother, I mean, they bonded over fishing, it is what they did all the time.

And they went out fishing over a hundred miles off the coast of Rhode Island, way out at sea. Nathan says he heard a funny noise in the bilge

pump compartment under, kind of under the deck --

COSBY: Now, this is his version of the events.

WALSH: This is his version of the events. And very quickly, he noticed there was water coming up. He went and got the ditch bag, you know,

provisions, the life raft, tossed them overboard, and suddenly said that the boat just fell out from under him and he managed to get in the life

raft, looked around, and couldn`t find his mother, anywhere.

COSBY: So then he is found what, it`s like a week later? This is a wild story, too. It`s like a scene out of a Tom Hanks film.

WALSH: It really is. A passing freight ship is headed towards Boston and it sees, right off its bow, Nathan waving his hands, trying, you know, to

signal them, so they`ll rescue him. And he gets on the boat and says, you know, I lost my mom, have you found her?

COSBY: Now, what kind of technology was on his boat? Describe for us, because his boat doesn`t sound like it was like a little dingy. Wasn`t

there some sort of technology, as opposed to him going on the life raft and then being found?

WALSH: Right. Well, he, number one, he had a radio, but there was no radio call for help. There was no SOS --

COSBY: So he did not use the radio?

WALSH: Did not use the radio. More significantly, he had what`s called an EPIRB. It`s an emergency beacon that he could have easily flipped the

switch of, and that would immediately alert the coast guard to his exact coordinates or very close. And the coast guard spent days and days

searching for him, so they certainly could use that signal. Some EPIRB will even activate as soon as they hit water. So it`s quite the mystery

that, you know, no -- I`ve talked to fisherman who say, he could have very easily just freaked out and thrown his raft overborn and jumped in and

forgotten to do something that is so vital to saving his life.

COSBY: Well, it sounds like he forgot to do some other things, too, and your story very well describes it. You did some great work on this, James

Walsh. The other thing is also the trim tabs. Somebody reported him taking the trim tabs off the boat and describe why that is significant.

[18:25:10] WALSH: Sure. Nathan loved to tinker with his boat. He fancied himself kind of a mechanic and somebody who could do it all. And he took

the trim tabs, which are these kind of flat rudders on the back of a boat, forgive me, I don`t know a lot about boating, but when cutting through the

water, it kind of evens out the boat. And there`s no real reason people say to take a trim tab off, but Nathan did take them off, he left a little

silver dollar-sized holes in the boat. And the boat insurance company says this is probably where all the water was coming from.

COSBY: And no fishing poles, right? No fishing poles. And he is claiming he went fishing.

WALSH: Right. I`m not sure about that. I haven`t seen that about no fishing poles.

COSBY: yes. There was a report that an older man said he didn`t see the fishing poles on the boat.

WALSH: Well, that is interesting.

COSBY: Yes, see, we`re breaking news with you, James.

WALSH: Yes. That is interesting. He also claimed to have fished for a few hours right off the coast of Block Island. And another fisherman did

spot him as the fisherman was coming back, going out with his mother. And that is where they fish all the time, but what his mother didn`t consent to

what we know of and she was definitely afraid of was going so far out, a 100 miles out to sea, you know, that is where the big game fish are, that

is where the tuna are, and that is what he really wanted to do.

COSBY: Wow. Let`s go to James Gagliano, a law enforcement analyst with CNN. So James, you hear this, and we are hearing from James Walsh, who did

some great reporting on this about the details. First of all, you know, doesn`t use the radio, he doesn`t use the technology that is on the boat.

The one report that there weren`t fishing poles and the trim tabs off, what do you make of all of this, James Gagliano?

JAMES GAGLIANO, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: So, Rita, two things jump out at me right up-front, which makes this such a colossally difficult case

from the forensic evidence collection end. First of all, this happened on the high seas, which you know, anytime you introduce water, a maritime

crime scene, the evidence collection is so difficult. Everything gets degraded by the water and it just makes it exceedingly difficult. So

evidence could be lost and never recovered that way. The second piece that jumps out at me is the psychological condition or the mental health piece

of this.

So we know this young man has Asperger`s syndrome, which is a high- functioning form of autism, but in dealing with this, in getting him to admit to something or to do this through interviews, it`s very, very

difficult in this type of situation. Law enforcement officers are not typically blessed with an M.D., they`re not psychiatrists. They don`t have

a PhD in psychology. So that is going to be a difficult road to hoe. Evidence collection and dealing with the person that we`ve got to consider

a person of interest at this point in time.

COSBY: Yes. And James, let me get to you James Walsh, because again, he has not been charged with anything, but what`s very fishy is the past case,

with the grandpa, too. Because he was the last person to see the grandpa alive, after the grandpa supported him, left and right, James Walsh.

WALSH: Right. He was very close with his grandfather and the night his grandfather was murdered, Nathan and his grandfather went out to dinner at

a Greek restaurant, according to Nathan, they came home, talked for a little bit, and then Nathan headed the back to his own apartment. And the

next morning, Nathan`s aunt discovers his grandfather shot to death in his bedroom with bullets matching the caliber of a gun that Nathan once owned.

So it is fishy, the last person to see both his mother and his grandfather alive.

COSBY: Yes, sure is. A lot of coincidences there. Let me bring in Kenya Johnson, defense attorney. Kenya, the grandfather, who really took care of

him, and treated him like gold, suddenly ends up dead. He is shot. He is the last person to see him alive. Mom suddenly is missing and all of these

things are not as you just heard from James Walsh, on the boat. He didn`t use the radio, didn`t do a number of things. You know, the answer trying

to now say, wait a minute, this guy shouldn`t stand to inherit anything. Can you explain that? And do you think there`s any grounds for this guy

getting any money? Why is he out free?

JOHNSON: Well, one coincidence or maybe even two does not indicate guilt. We`ve got to look beyond that to see if the evidence supports it. Carman

loved his grandfather and his mother. He had a relationship with them both. And this is how they bonded over fishing. So, it`s really going to

be hard to believe that there was a motive involved in this. He already lived an affluent lifestyle. So having ownership of that money, when he

already had access to it would not necessarily be a very strong motivating factor to kill these people that took care of him, that he had a

relationship with. So there`s certainly more questions than answers posed in this situation. And we can`t count them out, just because there was a

coincidence.

COSBY: You know, Kenya, for me, there`s a little bit difference from a couple hundred thousand dollars to a couple million bucks. You know, you

just said, oh, money might not have been a motivation. Money sounds like a big motivation. And his aunts are trying to basically have him found

guilty, because they say they don`t want him near them.

KENYA JOHNSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, let`s look at the motivation. Will they stand to inherit some of the money if he is precluded from inheriting

it? Then, that`s the motivation for them to point the finger towards him.

COSBY: So when everybody just ends up dead around him, that`s just all coincidence, right? Kenya, that just happens, huh.

JOHNSON: It`s certainly a tragedy that we have to look at.

COSBY: Well, it`s a lot more than that. Again, he has not been charged yet, but we will absolutely be following this case, everybody. Thank you.

Iowa police say they have run down more than 200 leads in their desperate search for Mollie Tibbetts, but they are no closer to finding her than they

were 13 days ago. It`s been almost two weeks. And now her father is speaking out. He joins us next, everyone.

[18:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY: And this is Rita Cosby, in for Ashleigh Banfield. Well, they apparently only have the car`s make and model. A 2008 Honda Accord.

And you can tell it`s silver, but you can`t even see the car`s license plate or tell who`s behind the wheel, which means the odds were against

them when the police in Pella, Iowa asked the public for help in hunting down the driver, because the creep was caught on camera pulling over when

two women ran by, pulling out a camera and photographing them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As covertly as he possibly could, took photographs of them, unbeknownst to them. It just seemed to be very, as they put it,

creepy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As a woman, I just want to feel protected. I don`t want to feel scared to walk around in my own town.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY: And fortunately, that driver has now been identified, reportedly turning himself in, because of pressure from social media.

Meanwhile, about 50 miles away, Mollie Tibbetts is still nowhere to be seen. She is the college girl who was last seen jogging while she was dog

sitting for her boyfriend nearly two weeks ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROB TIBBETTS, FATHER OF MOLLIE TIBBETTS: Nobody has any idea why, why, how this could happen in a place like Brooklyn, Iowa.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY: And still so many unanswered questions. With me now, "Crime & Justice" producer Michael Christian, also CNN law enforcement analyst James

Gagliano, and defense attorney Kenya Johnson are also still with me. And on the phone, we have Mollie Tibbetts` dad, Rob Tibbetts.

Michael, I want to start with you, because this new detail about this photographer, you know, it`s a decent amount away, but not that familiar

away. What do we know about the guy who was snapping pictures on other female joggers?

MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, PRODUCER, "CRIME & JUSTICE": He hasn`t been charged with anything. There`s a good chance he will not be charged with anything.

Taking a photograph in a public place is not necessarily against the law.

But in an abundance of caution, the Pella police wanted to make sure that these Brooklyn authorities knew about this, since the last time that Mollie

Tibbetts was seen was when she was going out to jog.

COSBY: What do we know? Do we know -- has he said anything? Does he have any relationship to Mollie Tibbetts or is it just the coincidence of the

jogging?

CHRISTIAN: It looks at this point like it`s just a coincidence. And the Brooklyn police, regarding Mollie Tibbetts, had a press conference this

afternoon, but they didn`t really say much of anything substantiative.

I don`t mean to be critical of them, but they were very tight-lipped about facts of the case, where their leads are taking them, any new details.

They, again, implored the public to please help as much as they could. They said how concerned they were. They said that their top priority is finding

Mollie, but they didn`t give us a lot of information like that.

COSBY: And in fact, there is a new tip line. There is some details with that. I want to put that up, too, for everybody watching because it has now

been almost two weeks, Michael, as we know.

CHRISTIAN: Two weeks tomorrow.

COSBY: Two weeks tomorrow. And it`s 1-800-452-1111, 1-800-452-1111. Also, at the press conference today, here`s a little bit of what they had to say,

but they are still remaining very tight-lipped.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEVIN WINKER, DIRECTOR OF INVESTIGATIVE OPERATIONS, IOWA DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY: We don`t know where Mollie is at right now. And I am not

going to draw any conclusions about the circumstances of her disappearance other than it is not consistent with her past.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY: And I want to go to James Gagliano. Not a lot of details as we hear this, and I wonder if that`s a disservice to the public because as we just

saw in the photographer case, social media went crazy. Anything that they see may be even possibly related to Mollie Tibbetts. Couldn`t they maybe be

giving out more details? Couldn`t it be helping maybe the case?

JAMES GAGLIANO, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: So Rita, in my position now on this side of the police tape, I have a different take. I understand the

utility of the media in helping police investigations.

[18:40:01] And I also understand the importance the public has a right to know. I watched that entire press conference today, and I came way the same

way you did. It wasn`t what we learned, it`s what the police weren`t willing to speak about. Now, there`s two reasons for that.

One is a shrewd investigative decision that you don`t want to spook a potential perpetrator or subject or person of interest. And the second is,

the honest, frank answer is, which we got today, we don`t have any leads, and what we`re doing is imploring the public to please assist us.

They also set up a follow-on press conference for Friday. And I believe they did this today to basically tickle the media, try to get people

interested in the story, to look into it, and if somebody has seen something that might have been out of place or might have been related to

this woman, please contact law enforcement.

COSBY: And Michael Christian, to that point, one of the details and we`re not even sure 100 percent if this is correct, that maybe she went back to

the boyfriend`s house. That`s very significant. Do we know anymore, if that happened, or if she just was missing since the jog?

CHRISTIAN: Authorities were asked about that at the press conference. It wasn`t something that they would comment on. They said that they have

developed a timeline, but they weren`t willing to share that.

But there have been reports from her family that apparently she did go back to the house after jogging, that she may have done some homework on a

laptop computer there, and she may have sent her boyfriend a Snapchat photo from that location.

COSBY: And James Gagliano, that`s a plethora of information if indeed that turns out to be true. Because if she goes back to the house, you first got

to see, did anybody break in or someone not break in, that could be significant. Also, her computer, if indeed she was online like Michael was

saying or if she sent a Snapchat, there`s a lot of leads there, James.

GAGLIANO: To Michael`s point, I read the same thing. The police were not willing to indicate whether or not they determined she had made it back to

the house. But, Rita, this is 21st century.

We have the technology now where everybody on a daily basis constantly puts forward a digital signature, whether or not you open your laptop, you get

on your cell phone, you post something on Snapchat, you drive across an easy pass bridge or a police department`s license plate reader scans your

license plate.

Police are harvesting all of this intelligence right now. They`re looking for the public`s help in this. But this case is going to come down to

forensics.

COSBY: Yeah, you bet. Let`s go to Rob Tibbetts. He is the father of Mollie Tibbetts. Rob, first of all, our thoughts and prayers are with you. I pray

that she gets home safely. Right now, she is missing. It`s been 13 days, but I pray you get good news. And I know the community and the country is

with you, Mr. Tibbetts.

TIBBETTS (via telephone): Yeah, thank you for having us on. You know, the partnership with law enforcement and the partnership with the community and

then with media has been very helpful and encouraging to our family.

COSBY: Tell us a little bit about her. Last time you saw her was a couple of weeks ago. You got remarried and she was at the wedding.

TIBBETTS (via telephone): She was -- that was June 3rd, yeah, she was the best man at my wedding. So we spent a week or more in California. We really

had a wonderful time. And then I spoke to her for two or three hours on Sunday, before this all happened. And she was talking about going back to

school.

She`s headed to Costa Rica -- I`m sorry, to the Dominican Republic for her boyfriend`s brother`s wedding. She`s very close with their family. And so,

you know, the first time out of the country, the first time using her new passport. So, she was very, very happy and upbeat about the rest of her

summer.

COSBY: Well, she`s beautiful. And how beautiful that she was your best man. That`s very, very special. What do you want to say to folks listening

out there? And I want to put up the tip line, too, again, because we pray that somebody out there sees something, someone had to.

Someone had to see something in the area, whether it was a jog or near the house. Maybe there`s something else online that`s providing details to

authorities. But what do you want to say, Mr. Tibbetts, as the whole world is looking for your beautiful daughter?

TIBBETTS: Well, we have complete faith in our partners in law enforcement. They have a very significant, sizable force working on this. It`s a very

aggressive investigation. They have not been anything but sensitive to our family and helpful.

But at the same time, they`re very circumspect with information for the simple reason that we don`t want to give any advantage to anyone who might

be involved in this.

At the same time, they`ve asked us to be very aggressive in helping to drive that information to that tip line because that`s where we`re going to

get Mollie back.

COSBY: Absolutely. And we pray that you get good news soon. Thank you, Mr. Tibbetts. Our prayers and thoughts are with you and your family. Thank you

very, very much.

[18:45:01] And everybody, up next, the grandson of a former Virginia governor lands a sweetheart of a deal after facing major rape charges. How

could this happen? Find out, next.

[18:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY: And this is Rita Cosby, in for Ashleigh Banfield. A former University of Virginia student accused of raping another student will not

serve time behind bars as part of a plea deal. Twenty-one-year-old Stephen Dalton Baril is the grandson of a former Virginia governor.

He had faced rape and sodomy charges after a young woman accused him of attacking her in February of 2017. Now, if the case had gone to trial, a

conviction could have landed Baril in prison for a minimum of 10 years. Instead, he entered what`s called an Alford plea, that`s when someone

maintains innocent, but acknowledges that there is sufficient evidence to convict them.

In the process, the charges were brought down to misdemeanor sexual battery and felony unlawful wounding. And Baril walks off a free man. The woman who

accused him said in her victim impact statement that he put her through "a year and a half of hell."

And joining us to talk about all of this is James Gagliano and also Kenya Hohnson, both with me here. I want you to explain, Kenya, what is an Alford

plea. He technically says he`s innocent, but there`s still a conviction, correct?

JOHNSON: An Alford plea is where you plead guilty but you`re really not admitting to the act. What you`re saying is that there`s enough to convict

me and I recognize that, so I`m going to go ahead and get this case over with and plea to it.

However, I am not conceding to any of the facts or the factual basis behind the plea. It`s a way of saying, I didn`t do it, but I`ll go ahead and take

the guilty, just to make you happy.

COSBY: You know what`s interesting? Felony unlawful wounding, and just to make me happy, we`re going to get back to that in a moment. But felony

unlawful wounding, is there any lawful wounding? I mean, that`s a weird charge.

JOHNSON: In Virginia, what it means is when you injure someone, but you don`t have the intent to kill them, then that can be felony unlawful

wounding. And whether it`s a misdemeanor or a felony, it`s based on the ultimate injury.

So here we`re talking about a sexual violation. It wasn`t the type where she would have been almost killed by it. So therefore the charges weren`t

upgraded to aggravated wounding. However, it is still a felony for the act of the sexual battery.

COSBY: You know, Kenya, you said, just to make us happy. What about the victim who went through a year and a half, she said of hell? He basically

says, yeah, there`s enough evidence to prove I did it.

He meets this girl again at a bar, they just met, takes her back. Again, it`s sodomy. There`s some pretty serious charges in here. And now he`s

walking scot-free, just to make us happy, right, Kenya?

JOHNSON: It`s a way to close out a case, but it is a hollow victory for the victim because you never hear the defendant say that they committed the

act and it`s almost as if saying, I just want to get this over with and I know the facts would prove that I was guilty. However, you`re just not

going to ever hear me say, I committed this offense.

COSBY: Let`s go to James Gagliano. It sounds like a cakewalk for somebody who maybe a little bit of privilege, James Gagliano, come on.

GAGLIANO: You hate to say that. Now, I say this all the time. Our system of justice is imperfect, but there is not a better one in the world. Until

someone can show me there`s a better one, I`ll stick with ours.

But in this case, Rita, it just screams out. I understand the process of why we have, we take pleas. We take them in the federal system, we take

them at the state level, too. Because there`s no way that every case can be prosecuted. We can`t take everyone to trial. And a lot of times, to clear

the court docket, the prosecutors will offer a plea deal to someone.

In this instance, though, it just, it smacks of Pyrrhic victory in that, yes, this young man does have a guilty plea, does take a guilty plea, but

he is not admitting any -- that he did any of it. And in that sense, it`s on his record, but he won`t serve one day in jail for something that the

prosecution clearly had enough evidence there to take to trial.

COSBY: Yeah, unbelievable. Both of you, thank you very much. And everyone, straight ahead, a fish out of water and into a baby stroller story, one

that you have to see to believe. One more thing is up next.

[18:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY: And one more thing for you tonight. A grab and go at the San Antonio Aquarium where thieves snatched a shark right out of the tank.

Aquarium staff says that the three suspects cased the area for about an hour before making their move, scooping Miss Helen, the horn shark, right

out of the water and then putting her into a baby stroller as they make their getaway.

[19:00:06] 38-year-old Anthony Shannon is now charged with felony theft. Police say he was picked up at his home which looked a lot like an

aquarium. Charges are pending against two other suspects. And as for Miss Helen, she was rescued and is safely back at the aquarium tonight.

The next hour of CRIME & JUSTICE starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am heartbroken and distressed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love him. A wonderful nurse.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was wrapped up in a blanket in a carnap dead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was a separate woman in a hotel room, in California, that was being held against her will.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I turn her over, she was -- she was dead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was a funny noise in the engine compartment.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn`t know that we were sinking. I knew that we had a problem.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I looked and saw a lot of water.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s no relationship between my having been the last person other than the killer to have seen my grandfather alive and my

having been on the boat with my mother when it sank.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody has any idea why. We don`t know where Mollie is at right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How this could happen in a place like Brooklyn, Iowa.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is not consistent with her past.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For her in particular, we hope this brings closure and enables her to move on with her life.

A former university of Virginia student accused of raping another student will not serve time behind bars, as part of a plea deal.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We believe that had we gone to trial, he would have been acquitted.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSBY: Good evening, everybody. I`m Rita Cosby in for Ashleigh Banfield.

This is the second hour of CRIME & JUSTICE.

Tonight, the horrifying update that will make you think twice before meeting up with someone from a dating app. Because police say it was a

dating app that connected a serial predator to 29-year-old Samantha Stewart, the beautiful young nurse with her own home, where her family

found her strangled to death when she was a no-show for a night shift. Samantha was reportedly wrapped in a sheet, lying in a pool of blood with

her teeth knocked out.

But tonight, the story gets worse, because investigators just tracked down her Tinder date who they are now calling a murder suspect. And police are

asking other potential victims to come forward, because they think that dating apps were his hunting ground.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENNETH STEWART VICTIM`S FATHER: Right after he committed a gruesome murder, he destroyed my family, he went to California and almost did the

same thing. They catch him before he could destroy another family. I`m devastated by the loss of my daughter, but here this really, really shock

me. It threw me over the edge.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY: And when investigators finally found Daniel Drayton on the other side of the country, he had reportedly made a date and struck again,

accused of raping and attempting to kill yet another young woman.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DERMOT SHEA, NYPD CHIEF OF DETECTIVES: It was a separate woman in a hotel room in California that was being held against her will.

ELAN CARR, DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY, LOS ANGELES: He is charged with first-degree attempted murder, willful deliberate premeditated attempted

murder, forcible rape, penetration by a foreign object, and false imprisonment by violence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY: And I want to bring in now our panel on the phone, free lance journalist, Steve Kalb, also certified death investigator and professor of

forensic at Jacksonville State University Joseph Scott Morgan, CNN law enforcement analyst and also retired FBI supervisory special agent, James

Gagliano, and defense attorney, Kenya Johnson.

Let me start with you, Steve, because this is such a horrible case. And it begins when a father finds his daughter`s body. Describe that. What

happened?

STEVE KALB, FREELANCE REPORTER (on the phone): Apparently, the father came in after repeatedly trying to get ahold of his daughter. She was a night

nurse, as I recollect, and had missed a shift. And found her in the corner of the room, wrapped in a blanket. Her teeth knocked out. And she had

been strangled.

COSBY: And at that point, they didn`t know who did it, but how did they track down this monster?

KALB: He was tracked down in part because he had said to a previous girlfriend that he had promised that he was going to kill her son and did

slash this woman`s tires, but they was going to California, so it was a trip of events after that.

[19:05:06] COSBY: And then, also, walk us through the Tinder connection, because, he met Samantha Stewart on Tinder, like a lot of people do. A lot

of people are looking for relationships or dates and so he met on the social media app. Describe that connection there.

KALB: He had used Tinder as a way of meeting people. He had used another one called plenty of fish in at least one occurrence, to meet women. And

that was his principle way of meeting them, rather than in person, like so many other people, he used tinder as a method of doing this.

COSBY: And I want to bring in Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigators.

Joseph Scott Morgan, when you hear this, it`s so horrifying. I can`t imagine this father, finding his beautiful daughter, her teeth knocked out,

bruises. Describe sort of how cops pieced this together.

JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: Yes, the level of violence here is chilling, isn`t it, Rita? We have got, as you had

mentioned, her teeth had been knocked out. There was evidence that she had been strangled. But also, let me go to one other thing here. We are

talking about a level of sexual violence relative to this penetration with a foreign object.

This almost begins to or does actually begin to list into the area of torture here. So, you know, the how can lead to the who. And what I mean

by that is the methodology that he employed. He`s coming in contact with her body, so therefore he`s leaving trace amounts of evidence, things that

we think about nowadays lake touch DNA and this sort of thing, not to mention any kind of body fluids that he has left behind. He took time with

her, because he had to facilitate these things, such as sexual torture and also the beating of her, apparently. And then, of course, the

strangulation that took place.

COSBY: Yes. And I want to put up the victim`s injuries. Because it`s so heartbreaking with this beautiful girl, 29-year-old Samantha Stewart.

Again, cause of death appears to be manual strangulation, but trauma to the head, trauma to the neck. It is just unbelievable. Apparently, lots of

blood, too, as well.

You know, James Gagliano, when cops finally put together, they say, OK, well, this guy met her on tinder. Thank goodness there was at least that

trace. Then they go to the airport. They find out, OK, he is going to L.A. it was a one-way ticket, James Gagliano. This man was so brazen.

JAMES GAGLIANO, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Sure. And the good news is, is that there are no perfect crimes. And obviously, as we become more of a

digital kind of a country and a world, cops have a lot more means to track things down and to piece things together.

What`s important in criminal investigations is link analysis. And these dating apps like Tinder and others apps a perfect example of link analysis.

This guy clearly hadn`t thought this through. Because anybody that had tried to think this through would have known that reaching out to people

and using a dating app, that`s someone that`s going to leave digital exhaust and it is going to make forensic evidence harvesting much easier in

this situation. Hopefully they can track him down.

COSBY: And you know what`s unbelievable? That when he was busted, he confessed to the crimes and he said that, OK, I have done some other ones

too, as well. Maybe here, maybe here, I mean, he did so many, it seems like they can`t even keep track.

James Gagliano, this is staggering to me. He said to cops quote "my body did this, but not my mind." What would you do if you were looking face to

face with this cold-blooded killer and he said that to you?

GAGLIANO: Rita, in 25 years, I can`t tell you the number of depraved murders, homicidal maniacs that I sat across a table from, whether they

were mobsters or whether they were gangbangers. And the most important part of piecing together any investigation is that critical interview.

Being able to talk to that person and try to understand him.

Cops are keyed in on three things. The first is body language. The second is tone. And then the third are the actual words. Because people tend, in

these situations, to have a propensity to lie. So cops have to sort through that. They have to ask questions they already know the answer to.

And they have got to make sure thaw buttress whatever he says to either determine it`s true or not by the forensic evidence that they have

available.

COSBY: You know, Kenya Johnson, he`s confessed to it. And he`s blaming this out of body experience. Give me a break, Kenya Johnson.

KENYA JOHNSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, as a defense attorney, you first want to interview your client and find out their state of mind. Did

he really -- does he really have contextual details that places him on the crime scenes of all the other murders that he has confessed to? And

whether he does or not, looking at his mental stability, whether he can understand the trial process or whether he understand right from wrong at

the time he committed the crimes. All of these --

COSBY: Kenya, he knew enough to get a one-way ticket to L.A. after he brutally killed Samantha, which he has said he did. And then he has the

brazenness that as soon as he lands in L.A., he is back on the dating app again and he rapes this other girl. Then he was caught in that act.

[19:10:06] JOHNSON: And so now we need to see, what is his mental state that led him to commit these acts. And if it was such a depravity, such a

psychosis that he was undergoing that it would be a defense and he could plead or perhaps be considered insane and potentially avoid trial due to

his mental instability and insanity.

COSBY: Well, it certainly sounds like it was very calculating and unbelievable, the brazenness of this. I want to play a little bit from the

press conference today because the NYPD believes that he is possibly tide to more crimes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHEA: He has made statements alluding to his participation in other crimes, including other homicides. Everything has to be vetted at this

point in time. Some of it takes place, what he alludes to in New York city. And some of it is alluding to acts committed outside New York city.

We have not been able to verify a single act, homicide, if you will, that he has mentioned and matched it up to an open homicide.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY: And you know, Steve Kalb, when you hear all of these details, they are looking at other cases, because they believe there`s a couple in

Connecticut, several in New York, who knows what else happened in L.A. But this guy has been through the system before and somehow was freed.

Describe his past crimes, Steve.

KALB: Well, from what we know so far, he maintains that he killed six or seven people, two in Connecticut, one in the Bronx, one in Suffolk county,

maybe another one in Nassau or Suffolk County, and at least one other in California. Additionally, he was arrested and placed on promotion in

Connecticut back in March and his name was put on a database, but for one reason or another, the next time he was arrested in New York, they didn`t

get his name off the database.

COSBY: So tell us about that crime, Steve, in particular. Because I want to know why this guy was even out.

KALB: From my notes, he was - he was arrested back in and put on bail in July. He was -- he was, at that point, charged -- or excuse me, he was

involved in another case in Connecticut and he was given promotion and his name should have been put on this database. Never made it.

COSBY: You bet. And it had to do with a strangulation when he tried to break up with a girlfriend or she tried to break up with him.

KALB: Yes, correct.

COSBY: Let me go to James Gagliano.

James, this guy was on promotion for trying to strangle somebody before. We now have a serial offender, a serial killer on our hands and he can`t

even keep track. He doesn`t know if he`s killed six or seven people. He can`t even keep track, James. Why was he out, James Gagliano? Why?

GAGLIANO: Well, we have a system of criminal justice that is predicated on justice, tempered with mercy. So the difficult part is when a judge --

COSBY: What about the mercy for the victims, James Gagliano? I mean, this is the cops clearly missed the mark here. Why was he out, James Gagliano?

It doesn`t look like they compared databases. He has been all over the country.

GAGLIANO: Because the system is only as good as the fallible human beings that make it up. The systems that are put together are programmed and are

executed by fallible human beings, Rita.

And no matter how many times you work on these type of things and try to make them better, there are going to be these opportunities, sad as it is

to say, where an instance like this happens, where somebody is let out that shouldn`t be let out, or when two computer systems don`t talk together when

they are integrated and they should. That`s a problem. We have got to work to fix it. But unfortunately, to err is human and that`s our criminal

justice system.

COSBY: Well, it sounds like a lot of mistakes have been made. And thank goodness they have gotten this guy.

Thank you, everybody.

Well, on another story, some grandparents love to treat their grandkids. But did one teen repay his millionaire grandpa for years of financial

support by shooting him to death in his house? That`s what his aunts say and now they are taking him to court. That story is up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:19:14] COSBY: And this is Rita Cosby in for Ashleigh Banfield.

Well, some grandparents really dote upon their grandkids. And Nathan Carman was one lucky grandson, because his grandpa was a real estate

developer said to be worth over 40 million bucks. He reportedly paid for Nathan`s apartment and his credit card. And when grandpa was mysteriously

shot to death, Nathan got half of his checking account.

But Nathan`s aunts say it was Nathan who shot him. The last person to see his grandpa alive, and allegedly the owner of a brand-new rifle with

bullets that match the ones in grandpa`s body. Now, Nathan`s aunts are trying to keep him from getting even more money, especially after the

fishing trip where Nathan`s mom mysteriously disappeared.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[19:20:05] NATHAN CARMAN, SUSPECT: Hello, this is Nathan Carman.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nathan, this is United States coast guard Boston. I need to understand what happened. Over. Over.

CARMAN: Mom and I, two people, myself and my mom, were fishing at block canyon. And there was a funny noise in the engine compartment. I looked

and saw a lot of water. When I saw the life raft, I did not see my mom. Have you found her?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, we haven`t been able to find her yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY: And Linda Carman`s body was, however, never found, still to this day. And now her sisters are taking her son to court. Their own nephew,

who stands to gain millions on top of the money that he has already been given, as the only heir to the money his mom got from his grandpa`s death.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARMAN: I feel healthy. I feel healthy. Emotionally, I have been through a huge amount. I would just like to thank the public for their prayers and

for their concern for both my mother and for myself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY: And I want to bring in our panel to talk about this. "New York" magazine reporter, James Walsh. He is the author of "Playing Against The

House: the dramatic world of an undercover union organizer." Also, CNN law enforcement analyst and retired FBI supervisory agent, James Gagliano, and

defense attorney, Kenya Johnson.

James, let`s start with you, because you`ve done a lot of reporting on this. Extensive, extensive work. And it`s so interesting, because this

story, first, take us back to the original story now when the mom goes missing, but he is on a boat, and the boat`s called "chicken pox." That`s

a weird thing, to begin with. But take us to his version of what he says happened then.

JAMES WALSH, REPORTER, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: Right, well, Nathan and his mother, they bonded over fishing. It`s what they did all the time. And

they went out fishing a hundred miles off the coast of Rhode Island. Way out at sea. Nathan says he heard a funny noise in the bilge pump

compartment under -- kind of under the deck.

COSBY: No, this is his version of the events.

WALSH: This is his version of the events. And very quickly, he noticed there was water coming up. He went and got the ditch bag, the -- you know,

provisions, the life raft, tossed them overboard, and suddenly said that the boat just fell out from under him and he managed to get in the life

raft, looked around, and couldn`t find his mother anywhere.

COSBY: So then he has found, what? It`s like a week later by a frater?

WALSH: About a week later.

COSBY: This is a wild story, too. It`s like a scene out of a Tom Hanks film, you know?

WALSH: It really is. A passing freight ship is headed towards Boston and it sees right off its bow Nathan waving his hands, trying, you know, to

signal them, so that they will rescue him. And he gets on the boat and says, you know, I lost my mom. Have you found her?

COSBY: Now, what kind of technology was on his boat? Describe for us, because his boat doesn`t sound like it was a little dingy. Wasn`t there

some sort of technology, as opposed to him going on the life raft and then being found?

Right, well he, number one, had a radio. But there was no radio call for help. There is no SOS.

COSBY: So he did not use the radio.

WALSH: Did not use the radio.

More significantly, he had what`s called an e-pirb (ph) that he could have easily, you know, flip the switch and would immediately alert the

coastguard to this exact coordinates or very close. And the coastguard spent, you know, days and days searching for him, so they certainly could

have used that signal.

Some e-pirbs (ph) will even activate as soon as they hit, you know, water. So it`s quite the mystery that, you know, no - I have talked to fisherman

who say he could have very easily just freaked out and thrown his raft overboard and jumped in and forgotten to do something that`s so vital to

saving his life.

COSBY: Well, it sounds like he forgot to do some other things, too, and your story very well describes it. You did some great work on this, James

Walsh.

The other thing was the trim tabs. Somebody reported him, what, taking the trim tabs off the boat. And describe what I that`s significant.

WALSH: Sure. Nathan loved to tinker with his boat. He fancied himself as kind of a mechanic and somebody who could do it all. And he took the trim

tabs, which are these kind of flat rudders on the back of a boat -- forgive me, I don`t know a lot about boating -- but they when cutting through the

water kind of even out the boat. And there`s no real reason people say to take a trim tab off. But once Nathan did take them off, he left little

silver dollar-sized holes in the boat. And the boat insurance company says this is probably where all the water was coming from.

[19:25:16] COSBY: And no fishing poles, right? No fishing poles and he is claiming he went fishing.

WALSH: Well, I`m not sure about that. I haven`t seen that about no fishing poles.

COSBY: Yes, there was a report that an older man said he didn`t see the fishing poles on the boat.

WALSH: Yes, that`s interesting.

COSBY: Yes. See, we are breaking news with you, James.

WALSH: Yes, that`s interesting. He also claims to have fished for a few hours right off the coast of Block Island. And another fisherman did spot

him as the fisherman was coming out and going back with his mother, that`s where they fished all the time. But what his mother didn`t consent to,

that we know of, and what she was deathly afraid of was going so far out, a hundred miles out to sea where the big game fish were, the tuna was, and

that`s what he really wanted to do.

COSBY: Let`s go to James Gagliano, law enforcement analyst for CNN.

James, you hear this and we are hearing from James Walsh who did some great reporting on this about the details. First of all, you know, doesn`t use

the radio, doesn`t use the technology that`s on the boat. The one report that there weren`t fishing poles and what do you make of all of this, James

Gagliano?

GAGLIANO: So Rita, two things jump out at me right up-front, which makes this a colossally difficult case from the forensic evidence collection end.

First of all, this happened on the high seas, which you know, anytime you introduce water, a maritime crime scene, the evidence collection is so

difficult. Everything gets degraded by the water and it just makes it exceedingly difficult. So evidence could be lost and never recovered that

way.

The second piece that jumps out at me is the psychological condition or the mental health piece of this. So we know this young man has Asperger`s

syndrome, which is a high-functioning form of autism. But in dealing with this, in getting him to admit to something or to do this through

interviews, it`s very, very difficult in this type of situation.

Law enforcement officers are not typically blessed with an m.d. they`re not psychiatrists. They don`t have a PhD in psychology. That`s going to

be a difficult row to hoe. Evidence collection and dealing with a person we have got to consider a person of interest at this point in time.

COSBY: Yes. And James, let me get to you, James Walsh. Because, again, he has not been charged with anything. But what`s very fishy is the past

case with the grandpa, too. Because he was the last person to see the grandpa alive, after the grandpa supported him left and right, James Walsh.

WALSH: Right, he was very close with his grandfather. And the night his grandfather was murdered, Nathan and his grandfather went out to dinner at

a Greek restaurant. According to Nathan, they came home, talked for a little bit, and Nathan headed back to his own apartment. And the next

morning, Nathan`s aunt discovers his grandfather shot to death in his bedroom with bullets matching the caliber of a gun that Nathan once owned.

So it is fishy. The last person to see both his mother and his grandfather alive.

COSBY: Yes, sure is. A lot of coincidences there. Let me bring in Kenya Johnson, defense attorney.

Kenya, the grandfather, who really took care of him and treated him like gold suddenly ends up dead. He is shot. He is the last person to see him

alive. Mom suddenly is missing and all of these things are not as you just heard from James Walsh, on the boat. He didn`t use the radio, didn`t do a

number of things. You know, the answer trying to now say, wait a minute, this guy shouldn`t stand to inherit anything. Can you explain that? And

do you think there`s any grounds for this guy getting any money? Why is he out free?

JOHNSON: Well, one coincidence or maybe even two does not indicate guilt. We`ve got to look beyond that to see if the evidence supports it.

Carman loved his grandfather and his mother. He had a relationship with them both. And this is how they bonded, over fishing. So it`s really

going to be hard to believe that there was a motive involved in this. He already lived an affluent lifestyle. So having ownership of that money

when he already had access to it would not necessarily be a very strong motivating factor to kill these people that took care of him, that he had a

relationship with. So there`s certainly more questions than answers posed in this situation. And we can`t count them out just because there was a

coincidence.

COSBY: You know, Kenya, for me, there`s a little bit difference from a couple hundred thousand dollars to a couple million bucks. You just said,

you know, money might not have been a motivation. Money sounds like a big motivation and his aunts are trying to basically have him found guilty,

because they say they don`t want him near them.

JOHNSON: Well, let`s look at the motivation. Will they stand to inherit some of the money if he is precluded from inheriting it? Well, that`s a

motivation for them to point the finger around him.

COSBY: So when everybody just ends up dead around him, that`s just all coincidence right, Kenya? That just happens?

[19:30:01] JOHNSON: It`s certainly a tragedy that we have to look at.

COSBY: Well, with it`s a lot more than that. Again, he has not been charged yet, but we will absolutely be following this case.

Everybody, thank you.

Iowa say they have run down more than 200 leads in their desperate search for Mollie Tibbetts but they are no closer to finding her than they were 13

days ago. It`s been almost two weeks. And now her father is speaking out. He joins us next, everyone.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:35:22] COSBY: And this is Rita Cosby in for Ashleigh Banfield. Well, they apparently only had the car`s make and model, a 2008 Honda Accord.

And you can tell it`s silver but you can`t even see the car`s license plate or tell who`s behind the wheel. Which means the odds were against them

when the police in Pella, Iowa asked the public for help in hunting down the driver.

Because the creep was caught on camera pulling over when two women ran by, pulling out a camera and photographing them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As covertly as he possibly could, took photographs of them, unbeknownst to them. It just seemed to be very -- as they put it,

creepy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As a woman, I just want to feel protected. I don`t want to feel scared to walk around in my own town.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY: And fortunately, that driver has now been identified, reportedly turning himself in, because of pressure from social media. Meanwhile,

about 50 miles away, Mollie Tibbetts is still nowhere to be seen. She is the college girl who was last seen jogging while she was dog sitting for

her boyfriend nearly two weeks ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROB TIBBETTS , MOLLIE TIBBETTS` FATHER: Nobody has any idea why. Why, how this could happen in a place like Brooklyn, Iowa.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY: And still so many unanswered questions. With me now, "CRIME & JUSTICE" producer, Michael Christian. Also, CNN Law Enforcement Analyst,

James Gagliano and Defense Attorney Kenya Johnson are also still with me. And on the phone, we have Mollie Tibbetts` dad, Rob Tibbetts. Michael, I

want to start with you. Because this new detail about this photographer, you know, it`s a decent amount away, but not that far away.

What do we know about the guy who was snapping pictures on other female joggers?

MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, HLN CRIME & JUSTICE PRODUCER: He hasn`t been charged with anything. There`s a good chance he will not be charged with anything.

I mean, taking a photograph in a public place is not necessarily against the law. But in an abundance of caution, the Pella Police wanted to make

sure that these Brooklyn authorities knew about this since the last time that Mollie Tibbetts was seen was when she was going out to jog.

COSBY: What do we know? Do we know? Has he said anything? Does he have any relation to Mollie Tibbetts or is it just the coincidence of the

jogging?

CHRISTIAN: I -- it looks at this point like it`s just the coincidence. And the Brooklyn Police regarding Mollie Tibbetts had a press conference

this afternoon, but they didn`t really say much of anything sustentative. I don`t mean to be critical of them but they were very tight-lipped about

facts of the case, where their leads are taking them, any new details. They, again, implored the public to please help as much as they could.

They said how concerned they were. They said that their top priority is finding Mollie, but they didn`t give us a lot of information like that.

COSBY: And in fact, there is a new tip line. There is some details with that. I want to put that up, too, for everybody watching. Because it has

now been almost two weeks, Michael, as we know.

CHRISTIAN: Two weeks tomorrow.

COSBY: And two weeks tomorrow. And it`s 1-800-452-1111. 1-800-452-1111. Also, at the press conference today, here`s a little bit of what they had

to say, but they are still remaining very tight-lipped.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEVIN WINKER, IOWA DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY DIRECTOR: We don`t know where Mollie`s at right now, and I am not going to draw any conclusions

about the circumstances of her disappearance, other than it is not consistent with her past.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY: And I want to go to James Gagliano. Not a lot of details as we hear this. And I wonder if that`s a disservice to the public because as we

just saw in the photographer case, social media went crazy. Anything that they see maybe even possibly related to Mollie Tibbetts. Couldn`t they

maybe be giving out more details? Couldn`t it be helping maybe the case?

JAMES GAGLIANO, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: So Rita, in my position now on this side of the police tape, I have a different take. I understand the

utility of the media in helping police investigations. And I also understand the importance the public has a right to know. I watched that

entire press conference today and I came away the same way you did. It wasn`t what we learned, it`s what the police weren`t willing to speak

about.

Now, there`s two reasons for that. One is a shrewd investigative decision that you don`t want to spook a potential perpetrator or subject or person

of interest. And the second is, the honest, frank answer is which we got today is, we don`t have any leads. And what we`re doing is imploring the

public to please assist us. They also set up a follow-on press conference for Friday and I believe they did this today to basically tickle the media.

[19:40:02] Try to get people interested in the story, to look into it. And if somebody has seen something that might have been out of place or might

have been related to this woman, please contact law enforcement.

COSBY: And Michael Christian, to that point, one of the details, and we`re not even sure 100 percent if this is correct that maybe she went back to

the boyfriend`s house. That`s very significant. Do we know anymore, if that happened or if she just was missing since the jog?

CHRISTIAN: Authorities were asked about that at the press conference. It wasn`t something that they would comment on. They said that they have

developed a timeline but they weren`t willing to share that but there had been reports from her family that apparently she did go back to the house

after jogging, that she may have done some homework on a laptop computer there. And she may have sent her boyfriend Snapchat photo from that

location.

COSBY: And James Gagliano, that`s a plethora of information if indeed that turns out to be true because if she goes back to the house, you first got

to see, did anybody break in or did someone not break in. That could be significant. Also her computer, if indeed she was online like Michael was

saying or if she sent a Snapchat. There`s a lot of leads there, James.

GAGLIANO: To Michael`s point, I read the same thing. The police were not willing to indicate whether or not they determine she had made it back to

the house. But Rita, this is the 21st century. We have the technology now where everybody on a -- on a daily basis constantly puts forward a digital

signature. Whether or not you open your laptop, you get on your cell phone, you post something on Snapchat, you drive across an E-Zpass bridge.

Or a police department`s license plate reader scanned your license plate. Police are harvesting all this intelligence right now, they`re looking for

the public`s help in this, but this case is going to come down to forensics.

COSBY: Yes. You bet. Let`s go to Rob Tibbetts, he is the father of Mollie Tibbetts. Rob, first of all, our thoughts and prayers are with you.

I pray that she gets home safely. Right now she is missing. It`s been 13 days, but I pray you get good news and I know the community and the country

is with you, Mr. Tibbetts.

TIBBETS: Yes. Thank you for having us on. In our partnership with law enforcement and the partnership with the community and then with media has

been very helpful and encouraging to our family.

COSBY: Tell us a little bit about her. Last time you saw her was a couple weeks ago. You got remarried and she was at the wedding?

TIBBETS: She was -- that was June 3rd, yes, she was the best man at my wedding. And so we spent a week and -- or more in California and we really

had a wonderful time. And then I spoke to her for two or three hours on Sunday before this all happened and she was talking about going back to

school. She`s headed to Costa Rica -- I`m sorry, to the Dominican Republic for her boyfriend`s brother`s wedding.

She`s very close with their family and so, you know, the first time out of the country, first time using her new passport. So she was very, very

happy and upbeat about the rest of her summer.

COSBY: Well, she`s beautiful. And how beautiful that she was your best man. That`s very, very special. What do you want to say to folks

listening out there? And I want to put up the tip line, too, again. Because we pray that somebody out there sees something, someone had to.

Someone had to see something in the area, whether it was the jog or near the house. Maybe there`s something else online that`s providing details to

authorities.

But what do you want to say, Mr. Tibbetts, as the whole world is looking for your beautiful daughter?

TIBBETS: Well, we have complete faith in our partners in law enforcement. They have a very significant, sizable force working on this. It`s a very

aggressive investigation. They have not been anything but sensitive to our family and helpful. But at the same time, they`re very circumspect with

information for the simple reason that we don`t want to give any advantage to anyone who might be involved in this.

At the same time, they`ve asked us to be very aggressive in helping to drive that information to that tip line because that`s where we`re going to

get Mollie back.

COSBY: Absolutely. And we pray that you get good news soon. Thank you, Mr. Tibbetts. Our prayers and thoughts are with you and your family.

Thank you very, very much.

And, everybody, up next, the grandson of a former Virginia governor lands a sweetheart of a deal after facing major rape charges. How could this

happen? Find out, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:49:41] COSBY: And this is Rita Cosby in for Ashleigh Banfield. A former University of Virginia student accused of raping another student

will not serve time behind bars as part of a plea deal. 21-year-old Steven Dalton Baril is the grandson of a former Virginia governor. He had face

raped and sodomy charges after a young woman accused of attacking her in February 2017.

[19:50:07] Now, if the case had gone to trial, a conviction could have landed Baril in prison for a minimum of 10 years. Instead he entered

what`s called an Alford Plea, that`s when someone maintains innocence but acknowledge that there is sufficient evidence to convict them. In the

process, the charges were brought down to misdemeanor sexual battery and felony, unlawful wounding. And Baril walks off a free man.

The woman who accused him said in her victim impact statement that he put her through "a year and a half of hell." And joining us to talk about all

of this James Gagliano and also Kenya Johnson, both with me here. I want to have you explain, Kenya, what is an Alford Plea? He technically says

he`s innocent but there still is a conviction, correct?

JOHNSON: An Alford Plea is where you plead guilty but you`re really not admitting to the act. What you`re saying there is enough to convict me and

I recognize that so I`m going to go ahead and get this case over with and plead to it. However I am not consenting to any of the facts or the

factual basis behind the plea. So it`s a way of saying I didn`t do it but I`ll go ahead and take the guilty just to make you happy.

COSBY: You know what`s interesting? Felony unlawful wounding and just to make me happy, we`re going to get back to that in a moment. But felony

unlawful wounding, is there lawful wounding? I mean, that`s a weird charge.

JOHNSON: In Virginia, what it means is when you injured someone but you don`t have the intent to kill them, then that could be felony unlawful

wounding. And whether it`s a misdemeanor or felony is based on the ultimate injury. So here, we`re talking about a sexual violation, it

wasn`t the type where she would have been almost killed by it, so therefore the charges weren`t upgraded to aggravated wounding.

However, it is still a felony for the act of the sexual battery.

COSBY: You know, Kenya, you said, just to make us happy. What about the victim who went through a year and a half, she said of hell, he basically

says, yes, there`s enough evidence to prove I did it, he meets this girl again at a bar, they just met, takes her back, again, sodomy, these are

pretty serious charges in here and now he`s walking scot-free just to make us happy, right, Kenya?

JOHNSON: It`s a way to close out a case but it is a hollow victory for the victim because you never hear the defendant say that they committed the

act, and it`s almost as if saying I just want to get this over with and I know the facts would prove that I was guilty, however, you just not going

to ever hear me say I committed this offense.

COSBY: Let`s go to James Gagliano. It sounds like a cakewalk for somebody who maybe had a little bit of privilege, James Gagliano, come on.

GAGLIANO: You hate to -- you have to say that. Now, I say this all the time. Our system of justice is imperfect but there is not a better one in

the world. Until somebody can show me there`s a better one I`ll stick with ours. But in this case, Rita, it just screams out. I understand the

process of why we had, we take pleas, we take them in the Federal system, we take them at the state level too because there`s no way that every case

can be prosecuted.

We can`t take everyone to trial. And a lot of times to clear the court docket, the prosecutors will offer a plea deal to someone. In this

instance though, it just -- it smacks up a pure victory. And that, yes, this young man does have a guilty plea, does take a guilty plea but he`s

not admitting any -- that he did any of it. And in that sense it`s on his record but he won`t serve one day in jail for something that the

prosecution clearly had enough evidence there to take to trial.

COSBY: Yes. Unbelievable, both of you. Thank you very much. And everyone, straight ahead, a fish out of water and into a baby stroller

story. One that you have to see to believe. One more thing is up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:58:55] COSBY: And one more thing for you tonight. A fishy story out of San Antonio where thieves allegedly stole a shark from the aquarium.

Police say that three suspects cased the area about an hour before making their move, scooping Miss Helen, the horn shark, right out of the water.

About 25 seconds later they are back on camera with the shark in a bucket that is wrapped up to look like a baby.

The stolen shark is then put in a stroller as they make their getaway. True story. 38-year-old Anthony Shannon is now charged with felony theft.

Police say he was picked up at his home which looked like an aquarium. He reportedly is a fish lover who had a horn shark that died. Charges are

pending against the other two suspects. And as for Miss Helen, well, she was rescued and is safely back at the aquarium tonight.

And we will see you back here tomorrow night at 6:00 Eastern time. Be sure to follow me on Twitter @RitaCosby.

[20:00:01] And also catch me on WABC Radio on my show, Curtis and Cosby every weekday from noon to 3:00 p.m. Eastern Time. Thanks for watching,

everybody. "FORENSIC FILES" begins right now.

END