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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield
Cruel Conditions; Search Intensifies; One More Thing; Ex-Fiancee Accused Of Killing Roommate And Setting House On Fire; Two Babies Were Dead After Mom Left Them Inside The Car. Aired 6-8p ET
Aired August 02, 2018 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[18:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who did you shoot first, him or her?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is accused of fatally shooting his pregnant ex- girlfriend?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you all knew Sade said he got a gun.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And a police officer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she draw down on you first?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Of course she drew down on me first.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re in custody for homicide. OK?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What homicide?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then mouthing off in court right in front of the judge.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was left overnight. (Inaudible) left in car overnight. There was no love there from Amanda. At all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of them even told her, I can hear the kids crying out in the car. And told her to bring them in. She said no, they`re fine,
they`ll cry themselves to sleep.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you kidding me!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I got it, I got it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The worst case of living conditions they`ve ever seen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The two littlest ones were naked.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was nobody around. Adult supervision.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They were not fed, no ac, no electricity, no food.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s just no way that this occurred and somebody didn`t see something, or somebody suspect something.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Every day I feel Mollie`s presence with me. You know, sometimes I just feel her sitting on my shoulder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is out there. We just feel it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE: Good evening, I`m Pat Lalama in for Ashleigh Banfield. This is "Crime and Justice." An Orlando
man is going to trial after prosecutors say he killed two people and led police on a long and deadly manhunt, but his lawyer worries that he won`t
get a fair trial. Even though cops say Markeith Lloyd showed up at his ex- girlfriend`s family home following a fight over a text and allegedly gunned her down and her brother.
The brother survived, but Sade Dixon did not, nor did her unborn baby. Lloyd was on the run for nearly four weeks when a police lieutenant saw him
at a Walmart. He allegedly shot her too, claiming another life. And hours after that, someone else died. A sheriff`s Deputy looking for Lloyd, when
he got in a motorcycle accident. It took another seven days for those officers` colleagues to hunt down the alleged killer hiding in an abandoned
house.
Authorities say Lloyd even tried slipping out the back before crawling out the front door in body armor where the cops finally got him in cuffs. And
now Markeith Lloyd is back in court charged with two murders, four attempted murders, but he is still not going down without a fight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARKEITH LLOYD, SUSPECT: You all making up shit like I just went in there and shot this girl. I`m not finished talking, because you all been making
up shit all the time. (BEEP) you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have him sign --
LLOYD: Ain`t no Markeith Lloyd, who are you? Lady in a black dress. May I have your name, please? For the record, ma`am.
LLOYD: I`m here for what? Resisting arrest? (BEEP) you.
I ain`t did shit. I am Markeith Lloyd, flesh and blood, human being. I am not a fictitious person. I am not a corporation. I don`t give a (BEEP).
I don`t care nothing about that. (BEEP) you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: With me now, Ray Caputo, anchor and reporter for news 96.5 WDB. Also, Karen Smith, retired detective of the Jacksonville sheriff`s office
and my friend, defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh. Ray, this guy, I don`t know how this attorney is going to handle him. He is not doing himself any
favors with his behavior in and out of court. The new twist though now is about his trial. So let`s get that housekeeping in business out of the way
and we can go back and dissect the case.
RAY CAPUTO, REPORTER, NEWS 96.5 WDBO: Yes, so, what is going to happen is I`ll go back to the beginning. The state attorney here in the Orlando area
when she took office said, she wasn`t going to try any death penalty cases. So the governor Rick Scott, removed her, and they got a new prosecutor on.
And since then, it`s just been a lot of havoc.
Right now, the issue is that the executive order, removing the state attorney from the case is supposed to expire in March. Now we`re going to
have a new governor here in the state of Florida in January. There`s a possibility the case could still be going on. So right now, they`re saying
that could interfere, and that is where the legal troubles lie right now.
LALAMA: Thanks for that. Mark Eiglarsh, as a defense attorney, does it seem to you that the prosecution is playing politics. I mean, they want a
hanging kind of system, to be able to pursue the death penalty in this.
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINIAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. Let me tell you something about this defense lawyer. I know a few things about him.
[18:05:03] When I was a baby prosecutor, he was a baby public defender. His name is Terry Letterman, and he is a monster. The guy is a talented
attorney. He was phenomenal back then, he was my McEnroe, if you want to call me the Borg, and we were going at it, and we learned how to try cases
together. I don`t know how bad the facts are, and from what I`ve read, they look bad, but you`ve got a pit bull in Terry Letterman, this is no
slam dunk, because he is a phenomenal lawyer.
LALAMA: Well, let`s go off on that a little bit, Karen Smith. He apparently also worked on the Casey Anthony case, which is going to bring,
you know, the spotlight to this case to some degree. How problematic is that?
KAREN SMITH, RETIRED DETECTIVE, JACKSONVILLE SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Well, from a law enforcement perspective, it can be very difficult. I mean, Casey
Anthony, that was nationwide, and it lasted for months and months and months. I don`t know that this will take on that big of an umbrella, but I
certainly think that law enforcement needs to be on their toes and from what I`ve read, they really did a spot-on job on this case.
LALAMA: Well, let`s go back to Ray Caputo. Ray, so, I know that in a lot of cases an attorney of his stature can be appointed, was that the case
here, or is he doing this pro bono? I don`t know whether the defendant has a lot of money. How did this happen?
CAPUTO: I believe the state`s paying for it. I don`t know how much, you know how that all that money works out and how much he is charging, but
Markeith wanted this attorney from the very beginning. Only now is he getting this attorney. So I know that the taxpayers are basically footing
his bill. I don`t know if he is going to be charging less or how all that went down. But my understanding is it`s the taxpayers.
LALAMA: So, Mark Eiglarsh, listen, everybody deserves a defense. I believe in that system entirely, but why would a high profile attorney want
to get involved with this man who`s got two murder counts, four attempted murder counts, won`t work with anybody, is indignant, is foul. I get it, I
know people deserve a defense, but why does this high priced guy need this case?
EIGLARSH: Does he need it? No, but this is what he does for a living. Terry specializes in death penalty cases. If he judged his clients, he
wouldn`t have clients. Judgment is the thief of serenity and Terry prides himself on being a tremendous advocate regardless of what his clients may
have done.
LALAMA: Now Mark, listen, I`m very close to many defense attorneys and I take offense when people who say, how can you represent that guy? That is
not the way the system is supposed to work. I`m just thinking what legally about this case does he find particularly winnable?
EIGLARSH: Well, his job is to get on death penalty cases, and when he does, he is paid nicely by the state. He works his tail off, and so he
bills the hour. It is not the same as if he was privately retained, but you know, we need to eat. So, I`m sure he is taking this case, because he
is interested. He`d like to help save the guy`s life. Those are the reasons.
LALAMA: Well, that makes sense to me. Karen Smith, back to you. As law enforcement, so this guy says that he was basically attacked first. Let`s
go back a little bit. This is all about the fact that he claims he told his girlfriend, who was pregnant with his child to stop smoking pot. Then
they got into a text argument. Then he came over to the house, he claims that she went and grabbed a gun and that her brother jumped on him. So it
sounds like he is trying to plant the seeds of self-defense. What do you say about that?
SMITH: That is exactly what he is doing, but here`s the problem. In the items that I`ve read, this is the problematic part. He said that his
girlfriend came out with a gun, but then he said he disarmed her after he took out his own gun and he placed his gun in his back pocket and covered
it with his shirt. Well, I`d like to see somebody try that. Disarm someone with a gun in their hand already. And interestingly, the gun that
he allegedly took from the girlfriend was found at the scene and had not been fired. However 11 shots from the 40 caliber that he had, had been
fired. So this is going to be an interesting case going forward, to find out how he is going to un-wrangle himself from that.
LALAMA: Yes. You know, it`s interesting to listen to his demeanor on tape, but I want you to see and maybe back in the studio, guys, FS number
1, full screen number 1, text messages on the night of the shooting. This text was sent allegedly by him after his girlfriend was shot. Listen to
this.
OK, sorry about that. Thought it was audio. Here`s what he says. Don`t know if you go make it. I hope you don`t. Told you don`t play with me and
you went and got a gun on me instead of talking to me. And so you wanted it when all I ever wanted was to talk. Now we paying the price. Mike
Eiglarsh as a defense attorney, what are you gonna do with that?
[18:10:08] EIGLARSH: I love it. I blow it up and I make it big.
LALAMA: You love it?
EIGLARSH: And I blow it up. Yes, he is saying, to her, if I read correctly that you went and got a gun on me. You got a gun on me.
LALAMA: Mark, he also says, I don`t know if you gonna make it, and I hope you don`t. That is not incriminated?
EIGLARSH: Hold on. You`re missing it. You are missing it. If I read that correctly. He said, you got a gun on me. That was the evidence that
she got a gun on him, Pat.
LALAMA: Well --
EIGLARSH: That is what I would argue as self-defense. I don`t know if it is as his defense lawyer.
LALAMA: Isn`t it interesting that in my mind he want -- particularly intelligent to be texting any kind of thing after the shooting of his
girlfriend, Karen Smith, what about that?
SMITH: Well, the text is definitely questionable in my mind, very incriminating.
LALAMA: I think it too.
SMITH: And the forensics is gonna tell the story. If it was self-defense, we are going to be able to tell by the bullet flight path reconstruction
from stippling on the body. If it was a close contact wound, if it was a distant wound, the direction of the bullets, who was where, who fired what
when. And you know, I`m gonna wait for the forensics to come out on this one.
LALAMA: Ray Caputo, what is next now after we`ve had this entertaining day in court today?
CAPUTO: Well, they`re going to be back in court next week. The Judge wants Markeith`s lawyer and the prosecutors to find a trial date. Then
they can put this other issue to bed about when this trial`s actually gonna be and if they have to do anything further. You know, again, with the
governor, he`ll be out of office in January. We`ll have a new governor, that executive order, so they`re back in court next week.
LALAMA: Mark, is it a little bit interesting that the judge is sort of putting this controversial trial date in the hands of prosecution and
defense? Don`t Judges normally set a trial date?
EIGLARSH: Yes. However, if he can get both sides to stipulate, meaning agree to a specific date, then he`ll hold their feet to the fire. He
doesn`t want the defense to make an issue on appeal and say, you didn`t give me enough time, judge. And state, we need more time. No, no, both of
you come up with a date and that is a firm date and we`re going forward.
LALAMA: Well, is it possible that the judge doesn`t want to get into the controversy of the death penalty so he is put it in their laps to figure it
out?
EIGLARSH: That is another possibility as well.
LALAMA: You know, this gentleman did about 45 minutes of interrogation with cops. He wasn`t very forth coming. He was indignant, angry, said
cops are basically bad and they shoot innocent people and he was beat up, et cetera, et cetera. So let`s listen to a little bit of it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, do you spent some time in prison. That was a small price to pay for all the shit you did in your life. And you know it.
LLOYD: You stupid mother (BEEP). I ain`t did shit in my life. So you can shut your damn mouth I ain`t ever did shit, I ain`t never had a felony
until I went to prison. What the f-ck you talking about? Now you just rapping because I ain`t never
So, mark, when you hear a defendant talking like that, do you try to get them to be a little more congenial in their dealings with cops, or is it
just what it is?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am just rapping?
LLOYD: Yes, because I ain`t never get in trouble. You just rapping.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am just rapping?
LLOYD: Yes, you just rapping.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: So, Mark, do you -- when you hear defendant talking like that, do you try to get him to be a little more (inaudible) in their dealings with
cops, or it just what it is?
EIGLARSH: Well, yes, sometimes it is what it is, but I do, I try on every client. Winning is defined by doing everything I can to get the best
possible outcome. Now, if my client is going to flap his lips or do something that is going to adversely affect the case, I can`t control him.
I can just control me and do everything I can. When I hear something like that, that you just played, I`m immediately thinking, what portions of
those statements, can I get thrown out of court? Any reference to being in prison once before, jurors are not supposed to know that. So that is how
I`m looking at that statement.
LALAMA: Well, I think it`s going to be really interesting to see how he behaves when and if trial does begin and what the jury`s going to think if
he doesn`t calm himself down.
EIGLARSH: Right.
LALAMA: A teen mom in Texas allegedly leaves her toddlers alone in the car for hours as she hung out with her friends. The babies are dead, but only
one of her friends is charged with murder. That is next.
[18:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LALAMA: Tonight in Texas, two little girls are dead, just 1 and 2 years old. And we`re trying to figure out why. Police say their teen mom left
them in a hot car for 15 hours, including overnight, while she hung out with her friends, but Amanda Hawkins had a whole different story when she
brought her girls into the hospital. She reportedly said they collapsed smelling flowers during a trip to the lake. And since then, we`ve learned
the dark details, like how Hawkins reportedly justified leaving her daughters in the car.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of them even told her they could hear the kids crying out in the car and told her bring them in, and she said, no, they`re
fine, they`ll try themselves to sleep.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[18:20:00] LALAMA: Nice. Hawkins is now behind bars, but she is not the one charged with murder. And now police are being tight-lipped about where
this case goes from here, and the justice that they`re seeking for little Bryn and Addison.
I want to bring in my panel, on the phone, Mike Taylor, a reporter for Hill Country Breaking news.com, also retired detective, Karen Smith, and defense
attorney Mark Eiglarsh are still with me. So, right to, Mike Taylor, anything new, anything developing since we last discussed?
MIKE TAYLOR, REPORTER, HILL COUNTRY BREAKING NEWS.COM: Well, Alston`s arraignment, and first of all, thank you for having me back. Alston`s
arraignment was today and he did plead not guilty to the charges of murder. That is the new development so far today.
LALAMA: OK. So before we go into some of the details that are relatively new, I just want to refresh everyone`s memory about this. She is at a
party at a house with friends. The babies are in their car seats in her car. She allegedly says, they`ll cry themselves to sleep, I`m not worried.
They stay there overnight. The heat is sweltering the next day and the day before. Her friend, a 16-year-old man, teenager, goes to the car to sleep
and wakes up, turns off the engine, rolls up the window and locks the doors and leaves the children in the car, he claims he didn`t see them. Mark
Eiglarsh, I`ve been trying -- I`m not a lawyer, but I think I understand a lot about the law. Why is she not charged with the same thing he is
charged with?
EIGLARSH: Well, you`re not going to like the answer that I have. And that is, I don`t know. And I`m so glad that I don`t know, because I`m tired of
law enforcement leaking information that they should hold close to the vest when a pending, significant case like this is out there and is being
scrutinize. I`m OK with not knowing, Pat. I know you want to know as the reporter. I`m OK, they must have their reasons and I`m glad that they`re
keeping it close to the vest.
LALAMA: Well, the fact that she really did do anything but leave her kids in the car and declined to go get them. And I`m guessing maybe it has
something to do with him actually taking the action of rolling up the windows and locking the doors. I don`t want to speculate, listen, I
believe in the sanctity of the law and due process before television even - -
EIGLARSH: You`re onto something though.
LALAMA: What`s that?
EIGLARSH: You are on to something. I mean, those facts, assuming those to be true facts, would make the distinction between why he may be charged and
she is not. You are right there, if those facts are accurate, as you just said, then those could be the reasons. I`ve had cases where it doesn`t
rise to the level of proof beyond a reasonable doubt that the action warrants murder. And so they have those reasons. We don`t have the exact
nitty gritty detail, but what you just suggested, I think, might be the reason.
LALAMA: Karen Smith, what`s your position on this?
SMITH: Well, as former law enforcement, my position is, you know, she is going to be charged with something, whether aggravated child abuse or
murder, I don`t know. I agree with Mark on this, I`m glad they`re keeping their cards close to the vest. Because those are things that can come out
in the watch.
As far as the children are concerned, you know, this was egregious. This 16-year-old young man knows right from wrong. Now, whether or not he knew
they were in the car. That is a question that will come out. I want to know what kind of car it was. Was it an SUV? Did he have a view over the
seat? These kids were in car seats. I hardly believe that anybody who took a nap in a car wouldn`t know there are two children in car seats in
there somewhere.
LALAMA: Another interesting element in terms of her culpability, is that, she told cops that the kids collapsed after being at a lake and smelling
flowers. And then to me, the most egregious of all, takes the children home, allegedly unconscious, the children, gives them baths, changes their
clothes, takes them to the hospital, and that is when she says, they smelled flowers and collapsed.
So, Mike Taylor, you know, what if those poor babies were treated for toxicity rather than being treated for hyper -- for too much heat, for
dying from too much heat. That could have delayed -- they could have been saved. Why is she not culpable for that?
TAYLOR: That is why there`s so much outrage in the community right now. You know, not necessarily because Kevin Frankie was charged with murder,
but because Amanda Hawkins was not. You know, she lied allegedly initially about this, and she was in the hospital for several hours with her
daughters before the police took her and talked to her, before she admitted what actually happened.
LALAMA: But before we go any further, here`s another interesting little twist, and I`m sure Mark will want to respond to this. So allegedly our
female defendant, she supposedly started a relationship with a jailer. So, listen to this sound bite.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF RUSTY HIERHOLZER, KERR COUNTY, TEXAS: We were looking at some other things and talking to some inmates and heard that Miss Hawkins may
have had something going on with one of my jailers.
[18:25:12] In doing an investigation real quick, we found where there was over 50 phone calls made back from her to him on his private phone, and in
reviewing those, we discovered that they, quote, from each other, were supposedly in love. There had not been any actual physical contact at that
time, but he had given her a ring. It was too tight on her hand for her to even get it off. It was too small. We had to take it to the hospital and
have it cut off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: OK, Mark, so, you know what I know about this. How much does this tarnish an investigation, or does it?
TAYLOR: I don`t see, as much as I want to, let`s say as a defense lawyer, make that somehow part of the case. I`m struggling. I don`t see it. I see
a completely separate. I don`t see that having to do with anything with the criminal case itself. I`m just troubled by the fact that somebody
engaged in this kind of behavior with an inmate. It`s just so troubling and I certainly hope he doesn`t think he was going to start a family with
her.
LALAMA: Oh, my goodness. OK. Let me ask you this, Karen Smith, she says, oh, let them stay, they`ll cry themselves to sleep. So that tells me, she
goes to bed, she wakes up, she knows they`re still out there, because they`re not with her. She delays their treatment. She lies. And I hate
to keep beating on this, but is that not -- how is she not culpable at least for negligent homicide.
SMITH: Well, that would be up to the attorneys to determine for sure, but for me, I would certainly have probable cause to slap cuffs on her and take
her down to jail for at least aggravated child abuse. Why that hasn`t happened, I can`t answer that question, but you have this woman who lied.
She said that they smelled flowers and collapsed.
You know, the medical examiner is going to come forth on autopsy and tell exactly what happened to these little girls. What happened was, they were
left in a hot car. It was 90 degrees. No, it is not 90 degrees outside, it was 130 to 170 inside that car. That is hyperthermia. That is heat
stroke. And they were strapped in a car seat. They were helpless. This whole thing is just heartbreaking to me.
LALAMA: Yes, but, like Mark said, and we have to trust prosecutors to know that they can only charge when they can prove. Maybe, obviously they know
something we don`t. So, the other thing is, the sheriff talked about what was going on that night while they were all partying, and the poor kids
were sweltering in the car. So let`s hear from that person?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What were they doing inside the house?
HIERHOLZER: I don`t know. They`re all younger people. I`ve heard rumors, but I`m not gonna accused anything, but I just -- probably not anything up
to any good.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Mike Taylor, what do we know about that party? Very quickly, like ten seconds?
TAYLOR: From what I understand, it went on until 5:00 in the morning, and that is when Amanda went to sleep. That is when Kevin Frankie allegedly
got in the car. One real quick, people are saying that know Amanda, she treated her kids like pets, but who even leaves their pets in a hot car and
goes to sleep knowing they`re out there in the heat?
LALAMA: Good point.
Tonight in Georgia, the FBI and the army are asking for help in tracking down the killer of 24-year-old Aubrey Boykin. Boykin was found dead in her
Fort Stewart, Georgia, home earlier this month. Her husband, who was deployed in South Korea, became concerned when she missed their daily phone
call. Investigators haven`t said how she died, but are offering a $20,000 reward for information. They`re also still searching for her car, a 2018
black Honda accord with Georgia tag RLQ 1762.
Up next, outrage tonight after two toddlers are found wandering a Florida street alone and partially clothed. Cops describe their home as a
disgusting house of horrors. And now their mom is facing charges.
[18:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PAT LALAMA, WRITER AND PRODUCER: Tonight, a Florida mom faces six counts of child neglect after cops say her kids were found wandering the street.
The youngest was just two years old, and police found her not wearing pants. And when the officers found her siblings, they realized all six of
the children were covered with lice and sores.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANGIE SZYMANSKI, NEIGHBOR: Terrible. Terrible. I didn`t know that it was that bad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the incident?
SZYMANSKI: When we saw the pictures, that`s horrible.
[18:35:00] All that we wanted was the kids to be well cared for.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Sara Resko would later tell officers that she had only been gone a few minutes, but the kids had already told them that their mom had gone off
to work, leaving them home alone in a house that cops say was infested with flies, where they slept without beds, surrounded by dog feces, and went
without running water.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAUREN LETTELIER, PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICER, MARION COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: We had some very experienced deputies go to this house, and they
said it`s the worst case of living conditions they`ve ever seen. They were unsupervised and they were not fed and they were also living in a house
with no AC, no electricity, no food.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: I want to bring in Ray Caputo, anchor and reporter of News 96.5 WDBO, also Paul Bloom, public information officer for the Marion County
Sheriff`s Office, certified child welfare law specialist Ashley Willcott, and of course defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh.
Well, where do I begin with this one? I think we need to go to Officer Paul Bloom. Where is the mother? What is the situation now with her?
PAUL BLOOM, PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICER, MARION COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Well, the mother has posted her bond. She`s out of jail right now. The
children are still in the care of the state with the Department of Children and Families.
LALAMA: So you got all six children, correct?
BLOOM: That`s correct. The children are safe and that`s our concern obviously right now. She was arrested, had a $12,000 bond. She bonded out.
And she will have a court date set soon.
LALAMA: Officer, you know, of course everybody in the world says, how does this happen? How does it go unknown? What did you know about her? Or did
you know anything about her and her family prior to this incident?
BLOOM: This was actually our third contact with her. So, we had similar incidents twice before, where someone had called about a child found
roaming the streets and an officer responded out there, located mom, and we turned that over to the Department of Children and Families at that point
as well.
Both of those times, both incidents were similar to this. The mother did return in those previous incidents fairly quickly back to the home once we
made contact with her. However this time, this week, that did not happen. Two young babies were out in the middle of the road, in an intersection,
matter of fact.
And a concerned citizen stopped by and pulled them out of the intersection. One of the babies had no clothes on from the waist down. So, this citizen
was able to give them a towel to wear and of course called us. And we were there for an hour and a half before the mother showed up.
LALAMA: Yes, and she tried to tell you she had only been gone a couple of minutes, correct?
BLOOM: That`s correct. And our deputies quickly showed her that was in fact a lie. We had been into the house. We found four more siblings. We
were dealing with these two children. And these two children pointed out their siblings were down the road in front of a house. And so we responded
over there.
We went into that home to check on those children to see if there was a parent at home. And of course nobody was home. And the conditions that they
found there were just -- I can tell you it shocked these deputies that see quite a lot every day. It shocked them to the point where this is probably
the worst house they set foot in, they said, just the conditions.
LALAMA: It`s just horrifying. It`s absolutely horrifying. And Ashley Wellcott -- Willcott, excuse me, you know, it`s easy to jump on children
services. A lot of people think they`re public enemy number one.
A lot of times they`re under-staffed, overworked. I don`t know what the scenario is. But if they`ve been there twice before, I don`t think the
cockroaches just showed up yesterday. Right? Yeah, go ahead.
ASHLEY WILLCOTT, CERTIFIED CHILD WELFARE LAW SPECIALIST: No, I was going to say, I don`t either. But here`s the thing to keep in mind that often
happens, when the police or child services goes out to a home, if a parent doesn`t want to cooperate, they don`t have to. They don`t have to let you
into the house.
Now, there should have been enough visible on the outside and the conditions of the children, but who is to say or who is to know that mother
didn`t let them in the house?
LALAMA: Well, explain something to me. So as I understand it, there were supposed to be weekly visits, and the Children Services Department says
that she didn`t keep up with the demand for the weekly visits and they kind of put it on her. I mean, isn`t that on them to say, no, no, no, we`re
coming every week, whether you like it or not?
WILLCOTT: Absolutely. So that`s where it broke down. That`s where the problem is. What they should have done is said, she is not in compliance,
she is not doing it, we need to file in court, right, to get the court involved, to get a court order, to ensure these children are safe.
Because keep in mind, this is not just a simple neglect case. This is a whole host of types of neglect. You got the lack of supervision, medical
neglect, all these other things that she has committed against these kids.
LALAMA: So Officer Bloom, did you see or notice any signs of any physical abuse or sexual abuse on these children?
BLOOM: No, not there. We saw lice and bites and sores all over the children, and of course encountered the same thing in the house, roaches,
dog feces, flies.
[18:40:05] Matter of fact, the officers there on the scene just really --
LALAMA: I believe, tell me in my ear if I`m wrong, that there`s some sound of her being arrested and being just dumbfounded as to why she`d be
arrested. Let`s hear it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can I just go get my shoes out of my car?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, you can`t.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let go of me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop, stop.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you kidding me right now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They will get the password to your phone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is so stupid.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please sit down.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a dress on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, turn around.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, you can. Sit. Sit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: This is so stupid, I have a dress on, you got to be kidding me, is this for real? Mark Eiglarsh, why the indignance? I mean, she has got a 2-
year-old baby walking around without pants on in the middle of the street, and she`s indignant!
MARK EIGLARSH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Pat, I`m sick and I can`t wait for this segment to end candidly.
LALAMA: Yeah.
EIGLARSH: This is so disturbing. The facts are so troubling for me. Listen, when your only two items in your refrigerator allegedly is Dr.
Pepper and the remains of Kool-Aid, you`re not mother of the year.
LALAMA: Right. Well, it always gets me, that you can put six children on the earth and then be indignant to cops when your children are naked and
starving. There you go.
EIGLARSH: Yeah.
LALAMA: As the desperate search for Mollie Tibbetts continues, the reward for information about the missing University of Iowa coed is now up to --
get this, $172,000. And investigators are praying it brings some solid leads. The latest on the search is next.
[18:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LALAMA: Tonight, a disappointing update in the case of Mollie Tibbetts, the 20-year-old college girl who disappeared while she was dog sitting for
her boyfriend over two weeks ago now. Mollie was last seen on an evening jog, running through this rural Iowa town, where investigators say they`ve
searched every property.
And now they`re delving into her fit-bit data, her social media posts, and tips like the one that came in last week from a truck stop over 200 miles
away. That`s where someone thought they spotted Mollie eight days after she vanished. But tonight, we know sadly that it wasn`t her, leaving Mollie`s
family waiting and waiting for answers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Every day, I feel Mollie`s presence with me. You know, sometimes I just feel her sitting on my shoulder. And Mollie was an
incredibly strong young woman. And I don`t know that I have the strength in me, but Mollie is lending me her strength every day, every night.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: So, Karen Smith and Mark Eiglarsh are still with me, joining us now. HLN`s Christi Paul, who has been on the scene covering the latest
developments. Christi?
CHRISTI PAUL, ANCHOR, HLN: Pat, I`m in Brooklyn, Iowa, a small town with an awful lot of spunk, a lot of faith. These people are rallying behind the
Tibbetts family and they are not going to lay down until they know that they have brought Mollie home. I`ve seen nothing like it before.
There are signs, as you can see, of Mollie in store fronts, plastered on cars, in people`s yards. This is a community that is saying, we are with
you. And that was so evident today in this extraordinary press conference 24 hours ago.
This family had $2,000 as a reward to give for information that leads to Mollie coming home safely. Right now, it`s $172,000. And that`s all just
from private donations. Crime stoppers now also making that public. So if you feel so motivated to help this family and to try to bring Mollie home,
you can donate as well.
We talked to or listened to the mother in this case, Laura, as she stood at that podium during this press conference talking about rallying people
together to get this money together. They believe that`s going to entice someone to talk, to let them know what they know.
But also how hard it is for her in those moments of quiet, that she has her meltdowns. But despite that, that she feels her daughter`s presence with
her, she feels Mollie sitting on her shoulder, and that those moments get her through as well.
And in talking to her father, he said, yes, it`s those quiet moments of silence that are hardest for him to handle, but that he is in no way, shape
or form gonna give up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROB TIBBETTS, FATHER OF MOLLIE TIBBETTS: This is going to be solved by someone coming forward with information.
[18:50:01] Either information that they think is trivial and not worth sharing, or information they think is gonna implicate a loved one or friend
and they are afraid of doing that. And I`ve been telling all of you, if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear. So come forward, share that
information with the authorities, and let`s bring Mollie home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL: And standing at this press conference with dad, with mom, with the brothers, Dalton Jack, he`s Mollie`s boyfriend, and he had an awful lot to
say to us about how he`s doing emotionally and how he reconciles the fact that there are people out there who want to incriminate him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DALTON JACK, BOYFRIEND OF MOLLIE TIBBETTS: I`ve been cleared by so many people and to be totally honest with you, I don`t care what they think, so
long as they quit thinking that the guy that did it is standing right here.
Just keep your eyes peeled for anything at all that you see, any suspicious activity because you`re not helping, you`re hurting at this point. You
know, just need to not be focused in on me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL: And I think this family really wants you to just put yourself in their shoes. Because they`re doing the same thing. Rob Tibbetts talked to
me about the fact that Mollie isn`t the only one missing. He knows that there are other families going through exactly what he`s going through now.
He said it has to stop and it`s not going to stop until we collectively, together, make sure that we`re watching our children, we`re teaching our
children, and that we are putting these people who may hurt our children behind bars.
Now remember, he is also a dad who lives in California which is far away from where we are here in Brooklyn, Iowa, but he says until the police tell
him that he`s not helping anymore, he is parked here in Brooklyn and will not go back to California until he brings her home. Pat?
LALAMA: Thank you so much, Christi. So, Karen, in law enforcement, we know that money can be an incentive. Going from $2,000 to $172,000 in the course
of a day, have you seen that kind of reward tip the scales as far as an investigation goes?
KAREN SMITH, RETIRED DETECTIVE, JACKSONVILLE SHERIFF`S OFFICE: No, I`ve never seen a reward get that large that quickly and it`s also going to
bring out people who are giving false leads, people who are going to be calling, just wanting to collect the reward money and not help Mollie
Tibbetts.
Unfortunately, that`s what happens when money becomes involved. You know, the money aside, this case, we`re dealing with a two-week timeline. And as
we all know, the first 48 hours is critical, and now we`re into two weeks. So regardless of the reward money, we need to find out what happened to
Mollie.
LALAMA: Mark, let me ask you, not as a lawyer but as a human being, why do you think (ph) someone in the media -- I`m always fascinated. I know when I
was at America`s Most Wanted, there were so many people who wanted us to profile their cases. They were heartbreaking. But we can only pick a select
few. Why is this one resonating so much with the public?
EIGLARSH: Candidly, she`s cute, period. And I`m not justifying one way or another. There`s been a lot of people who complain about a less perfect
girl next door, doesn`t get the same attention. That`s the bottom line. However, let`s not turn it into negative. Thank you to you. Thank you to
HLN for showcasing this.
The only way that this is going to get solved potentially is through exposure. So, thank you to your network. But we can all do things instead
of putting on social media, you know, what we ate for dinner or how cute our dog is, maybe a picture of Mollie and that might lead to somebody
saying something.
LALAMA: Absolutely. You know, I was having a discussion with Mike Christian from here at HLN about the cops being tight-lipped and it`s
frustrating for media, but I think in this case, Karen, very quickly, don`t you agree that, you know, they might know something that they`re not
telling us that`s very important, and if they wanted to tell us something that would help them, they would. Do you not agree with that?
SMITH: I agree 100 percent.
LALAMA: I understand the frustration as a reporter, trust me, but they have to do this, I think.
SMITH: Yes, they do. They have to keep this close to the vest because, listen, if this ends up being, god forbid, foul play, they want to keep all
of those details under cover because they don`t want to tip-off somebody who may have Mollie.
They don`t want to give them hands about what they`re doing or where they`re searching or the leads that they got, so they have to keep it close
to the vest at this point.
LALAMA: Well, maybe they know more than they`re telling us. I sure do hope so. How do you rescue a bear trapped in a car? This is a very bad bear,
too. Very, very carefully. And wait until you see the mess he left behind. One more thing and it`s a good one, it`s next.
[18:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LALAMA: One more really funny thing for you tonight. We can barely resist the urge to channel our inner yogi as we remind you to always lock your
car. We don`t think the big guy found a picnic basket inside, although it`s hard to tell what exactly was in there to start with.
[19:00:02] The Jefferson County Sheriff`s Office said there was a half- eaten banana in the cup holder. So maybe that`s what caught his attention.
The next hour of CRIME & JUSTICE starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Firefighters in Oklahoma respond to a raging house fire but make a disturbing discovery. Outside a body lying face down. Now
officials reveal the victim didn`t die in the fire. Did a bad break-up and a scorned lover lead to murder?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was left overnight. Both the girls didn`t deserve that, to be left in a car overnight. There was no love there from Amanda
at all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of them even told her that they could hear the kids crying out in the car and told her bring them in. She said no, they are
fine, they will cry themselves to sleep.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you (bleep) kidding me!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I got her, I got her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The worst case of living conditions they have ever seen. The two littlest ones were naked.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was nobody around, adult supervision.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They were not fed, no ac, no electricity, no food.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s just no way that this occurred and somebody didn`t see something or somebody suspect something.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Every day I feel Mollie`s presence with me. You know, sometimes I just feel her sitting on my shoulder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s out there, we just feel it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LALAMA: Good evening. I`m Pat Lalama in for Ashleigh Banfield.
This is the second hour of CRIME & JUSTICE.
Tonight, the roommate drama that reportedly ended with a dead body in a house fire. It allegedly started when 21-year-old Kristin Jones discovered
that her roommate had text her ex-fiance who also lives at the house. He and Kristin had apparently dated for two years and only just called off the
wedding. But Kristin apparently felt comfortable confessing to him, allegedly telling him she took her roommate Miranda Spawn to get a better
look at those texts before Miranda stabbed her hand. So Kristin allegedly told her fiance that she shot her right in the back of the head. But
Kristin didn`t stop there. Investigators saying she then the home on fire, leaving Miranda`s body in the blaze and quickly took off towards Texas.
That`s where the cops caught up with her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Show me your hands!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Show me your hands! Get out of the car! Step out of the car! Hands up, turn around! Walk backwards to the sound of my voice!
Hands in the air! Walk backwards, backwards, backwards, backwards!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop right there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop! Get on your knees. Keeps your hands in the air. She`s got a cut on her hand. There`s a gun under the front seat. I got
gloves on. There`s dogs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Well, Kristin would reportedly tell her fiance that she tried to cover up what she`d done because she was scared, and that fear certainly
seemed to hit the second time she got into the cop car.
(VIDEOCLIP PLAYING)
LALAMA: With me now, on the phone, Scott Mitchell, host of "Mitchell Talks," also corporal Paul Harmon, investigator with the Oklahoma county
sheriff`s office and defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh.
Well, I first want to go to you, corporal. Let`s try to clear this up a little bit. It`s a little bit convoluted, not anyone`s fault, this a
confusing story. So the ex-fiance -- the two ex-fiances and a roommate all lived together, and then there`s some suspicion that the ex-fiance female
is upset because her female roommate is talking to her ex-fiance male, do I have that right?
[19:05:16] CORPORAL PAUL HARMON, INVESTIGATOR, OKLAHOMA COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Yes, you do have that right. We are still in the process of
putting everything together, but that`s where we are leading to.
LALAMA: OK. So the feeling is, that what, she just broke up with the guy, she feels jilted and she thinks he`s flirting with her roommate? You know,
what`s the motive here?
HARMON: Pat, like I said, it`s still kind of early in the investigation, but that`s what the preliminary belief is on our part so far.
LALAMA: OK, so my understanding, corporal is that after all of this happened, she talked to her mom and her mother helped facilitate a three-
way call where you could listen in? Do I have that correctly?
HARMON: That is correct, Pat.
LALAMA: OK, and what were you able to glean? Were you the person listening in, or was it another investigator?
HARMON: It was myself and other investigators.
LALAMA: Can you give us an idea, or are you at liberty to tell us what was said in those conversations?
HARMON: She had made some homicidal statements along with suicidal statements while she was on the phone and that we were listening in on
that.
LALAMA: Can you be more specific, or you can`t do that?
HARMON: I would, at this time, with it being early in the investigation, I prefer not to.
LALAMA: All right. And also, do I correctly understand that while she was driving with the four -- four dogs, please tell me they are all rescued,
that she was on the phone with her ex-fiance and again police were listening in on that conversation, is that true?
HARMON: That`s correct. And she was making the same sort of statements regarding the homicide and suicidal tendencies.
LALAMA: Scott Mitchell, host of "Mitchell Talks," what do we know about this situation? Where is she now? What happens next?
SCOTT MITCHELL, HOST, MITCHELL TALKS (on the phone): Well, that`s where the drama begins. You know, this is one of these areas, your viewers are
going to remember a couple years ago, there was a rage killing, Oklahoma highway patrol troopers took out a guy named Michael Vance, remember that,
that was October of 2016. And obviously, this is an area that`s seen a lot of tragedy. And this is a situation where the authorities really ramped it
up quick. Cook County made the arrest, Oklahoma county sheriff is on top of this.
But there`s enough statements in the press right now. And with what has been said basically, you can see what may be next, what I`ll be watching
for is, who is her attorney going to be, because you can just imagine full well with all this drama, all this rage, that there could well be a plea of
self-defense.
LALAMA: Well, let`s talk about that, Mark -- excuse me -- David Windatture? Are you with us tonight? OK, Mark is still with us. My
apologies.
Mark, so defense attorneys and self-defense, how are you going to go about that?
MARK EIGLARSH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: One hundred percent --
LALAMA: She said she was stopped -- go ahead.
EIGLARSH: This is going to be a self-defense case. I don`t think it`s going to have much merit. Again, it doesn`t matter really why she did it,
although it`s nice to sort that out, I appreciate you asking earlier, like what`s the motive. Prosecutors never have it prove motive. Sometimes
people do things for crazy reasons and you never know.
What they will focus on is the physical evidence. A shot to the back of the head is not a good set of facts for a defendant in a self-defense case.
That doesn`t mean her goose is cooked, it just means now there`s a presumption of guilt, instead of a presumption of innocence.
LALAMA: I want to go back to corporal Harmon.
My understanding is, why don`t you just explain the scenario, when you arrived at the house. So everyone has a clear picture of what discoveries
were made when you got the call to go to the house.
HARMON: We received the call and investigators headed to the address that was sent to us. On our arrival, we still observed the fire department
still placing -- fighting the fire. It was still fully engulfed, the house was. I began doing an initial walk-around the back side of the house where
I observed a body laying in the back of the yard that had been burned.
LALAMA: Well, do you have any theory on what happened first? Now, there`s a reference to a shot in the head. Do we have any evidence that anybody
was shot in the head?
HARMON: At this time, the medical examiners will be the ones that determine the cause of death, and we have not received that report back at
this time.
LALAMA: And, corporal, you said the body outside, I`m just theorizing, it was possible she was on fire and was trying to flee?
[19:10:06] HARMON: That`s what it appears.
LALAMA: You believe that to be the case?
HARMON: Yes, ma`am.
LALAMA: And the other thing, so obviously she was not aware that the police were listening in on her phone calls, or she wouldn`t have blabbed
so much, I presume? Allegedly.
HARMON: Yes.
LALAMA: All right. And the other interesting point, corporal, is that there is a report of cops texting her, saying, you know, this could be a
case of self-defense. Now, my guess, and I believe that you might have been the investigator who did that, but I`m guessing you did that to try to
get her to turn ourselves in, which is doing your due diligence?
HARMON: Yes, ma`am. We were concerned also not only with what happened, we are concern with the suicidal statements that she was making. So we
were trying to locate her that way.
LALAMA: So she was threatening suicide?
HARMON: Yes, ma`am.
LALAMA: Scott Mitchell, what has she actually been charged with? What happens next?
MITCHELL: Well, I suppose that`s up to the D.A., but murder, amongst others, desecration of a corpse. But there was a third charge I can`t
recall right now. But obviously some real serious charges and Oklahoma county has a serious D.A. and great staff over there. She`s facing some
real hard time, perhaps life in prison. And first-degree murder in Oklahoma, we still have the death penalty.
LALAMA: Do you know, Mitch, does she have a history of mental illness or a criminal history of any sort?
MITCHELL: I`m not aware of such. Most of my information, there`s a great newspaper in the area, it`s a rural area of Oklahoma City, Luther Register,
lutherregister.news is where we get a lot of our information in northeast Oklahoma county. But, you know, this happens so fast, Pat. It was a real
48 hours packed with information there and a lot of this information is still to be determined.
LALAMA: Mark Eiglarsh, we just have a minute left. And this is more social commentary. It just amazes me the drastic measures people take, you
know, when they are broken up, or their kids are taken from them, or people are getting divorced. It`s so much carnage. What`s happening in our
world?
EIGLARSH: I will just say, in the limited time we have, that anger is one letter shy of danger, and when you`re feeling those feelings, take a time-
out, don`t pick up a gun.
LALAMA: But Mark, you know, let`s say you are representing this woman, what are you going to do?
EIGLARSH: Really? Well, first I`m going to collect a large fee, thank you, Pat. But what am I going to do? There`s really only self-defense or
insanity. And flip a coin. I don`t know that any is going to work based on the facts here. The best that you can do is avoid the death penalty and
then beg and plead for a lesser sentence.
LALAMA: And an innocent person, another, is dead.
All right. Thank you so much, all of you.
A teen mom in Texas, allegedly leaves her toddlers alone in the car for hours as she hung out with her friends. The babies are dead, but only one
of her friends is charged with murder. That`s next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:18:08] LALAMA: Tonight in Texas, two little girls are dead, just one and two years old. And we are trying to figure out why.
Police say their teen mom left them in a hot car for 15 hours, including overnight, while she hung out with her friends. But Amanda Hawkins had a
whole different story when she brought her girls into the hospital. She reportedly said they collapsed smelling flowers during a trip to the lake.
And since then, we have learned the dark details, like how Hawkins reportedly justified leaving her daughters in the car.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of them even told her they could hear the kids crying out in the car and told her bring them in, and she said, no, they
are fine. They will cry themselves to sleep.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Nice. Hawkins is now behind bars, but she is not the one charged with murder. And now police are being tight-lipped about where this case
goes from here, and the justice that they are seeking for little Bryn and Addison.
I want to bring in my panel. On the phone, Mike Taylor, reporter for HillCountrybreakingnews.com, also retired detective Karen Smith, and
defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh are still with me.
So right - so Mike Taylor, anything new, anything developing since we last discussed?
MIKE TAYLOR, REPORTER, HILLCOUNTRYBREAKINGNEWS.COM (on the hone): Well, Alston`s arraignment. And first of all, thank you for having me back, Pat.
Alston`s arraignment was today and he did plead not guilty to the charges of murder. So that`s the new development so far today.
LALAMA: OK. So before we go into some of the details that are relatively new, I just want to refresh everyone`s memory about this. She`s at a party
at a house with friends. The babies are in their car seats in her car. She allegedly says, they will cry themselves to sleep, I`m not worried.
They stay there overnight. The heat is sweltering the next day and the day before. Her friend, a 16-year-old man, teenager, goes to the car to sleep
and wakes up, turns off the engine, rolls up the window and locks the doors and leaves the children in the car. He claims he didn`t see them.
Mark Eiglarsh, I have been trying -- I`m not a lawyer, but I think I understand a lot about the law. Why is she not charged with the same thing
he`s charged with?
[19:20:29] EIGLARSH: Well, you are not going to like the answer that I have. And that is, I don`t know. And I`m so glad that I don`t know,
because I`m tired of law enforcement leaking information that they should hold close to the vest when a pending, significant case like this is out
there and is being scrutinized.
I`m OK with not knowing, Pat. I know you want to know as the reporter. I`m OK, they must have their reasons, and I`m glad they are keeping them
close to the vest.
LALAMA: Well, the fact that she really didn`t do anything but leave her kids in the car and declined to go get them. And I`m guessing it has
something to do with actually taking the action of rolling up the windows and locking the doors. I don`t want to speculate. Listen, I believe in
the sanctity of the law and due process before television even.
EIGLARSH: You`re onto something, though.
LALAMA: What`s that?
EIGLARSH: You are on to something. I mean, those facts, assuming those to be true facts, would make the distinction between why he may be charged and
she is not. You were right there. If those facts are accurate, as you just said, then those could be the reasons. I have had cases where it
doesn`t rise to the level of proof beyond a reasonable doubt that the action warrants murder. And so they have those reasons. We don`t have the
nitty gritty detail, but what you just suggested, I think, might be the reason.
LALAMA: Karen Smith, what`s your position on this?
KAREN SMITH, RETIRED DETECTIVE, JACKSONVILLE SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Well, as former law enforcement, my position is, you know, she is going to be
charged with something, whether aggravated child abuse or murder, I don`t know. I agree with Mark on this. I`m glad they are keeping their cards
close to the vest. Because those are things that can come out in the wash.
As far as the children are concerned, you know, this was egregious. This 16-year-old young man knows right from wrong. Now, whether or not he knew
they were in the car, that`s a question that will come out. I want to know what kind of car it was. Was it an SUV? Did he have a view over the seat?
These kids were in car seats. I hardly believe that anybody who took a nap in a car wouldn`t know there were two children in car seats in there
somewhere.
LALAMA: Another interesting element in terms of her culpability is that she told cops that the kids collapsed after being at a lake and smelling
flowers. And then to me, the most egregious of all, takes the children home, allegedly unconscious, the children, gives them baths, changes their
clothes, takes them to the hospital, and that`s when she says, they smelled flowers and collapsed.
So Mike Taylor, what if those poor babies were treated for toxicity rather than being treated for hyper -- for dying from too much heat. They could
have delayed -- they could have been saved. Why is she not culpable for that, allegedly?
TAYLOR: And that is why there`s so much outrage in the community right now, you know. Not because Kevin Frankie was charged with murder, but
because Amanda Hawkins was not, you know. She lied allegedly initially about this, and she was in the hospital for several hours with her
daughters before the police took her and talked to her, before she admitted what actually happened.
LALAMA: But before we go any further, here`s another interesting little twist, and I`m sure mark will want to respond to this. So allegedly our
female defendant, she supposedly started a relationship with a jailer. Listen to this sound bite.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF RUSTY HIERHOLZER, KERR COUNTY, TEXAS: We were looking at some other things and talking to some inmates and heard that Miss Hawkins may
have had something going on with one of my jailers. In doing an investigation real quick, we found where there was over 50 phone calls made
from her to him on his private phone. And in reviewing those, we discovered that they quote "from each other," were supposedly in love.
There had not been any actual physical contact at that time, but he had given her a ring. It was too tight on her hand for her to get it off. It
was too small. Had to take it to the hospital and have it cut off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: OK, Mark. So you know what I know about this. How much does this tarnish an investigation or does it?
EIGLARSH: I don`t see, as much as I want to, let`s say as a defense lawyer, make that somehow part of the case. I`m struggling. I don`t see
it. I see it completely separate. I don`t see it having anything to do with the criminal case itself. I`m just troubled by the fact that somebody
engaged in this kind of behavior with an inmate. It`s just so troubling. I certainly hope he doesn`t think he was going to start a family with her.
[19:25:10] LALAMA: My goodness. OK. So let me ask you this, Karen Smith.
She says, oh, let them stay, they will cry themselves to sleep. So that tells me, she goes to bed, she wakes up, she knows they are still out
there, because they`re not with her. She delays their treatment. She lies. And I hate to keep beating on this, but is that not -- how is she
not culpable at least for negligent homicide?
SMITH: Well, that would be up to the attorneys to determine for sure, but for me, I would certainly have probable cause to slap cuffs on her and take
her down to jail for at least aggravated child abuse. Why that hasn`t happened, I can`t answer that question. But you have this woman who lied.
She said that they smelled flowers and collapsed. You know, the medical examiner is going to come forth on autopsy and tell exactly what happened
to these little girls.
What happened was they were left in a hot car. It was 90 degrees. You know, it is not 90 degrees outside. It was 130 to 170 inside that car.
That`s hyperthermia. That`s heat stroke. And they were strapped in a car seat. They were helpless. This whole thing is just heartbreaking to me.
LALAMA: Well, yes. But like Mark said, I mean, we have to trust prosecutors to know that they can only charge when they can prove. And
maybe, obviously, they know something we don`t.
So the things the sheriff talked about what was going on that night while they were all partying, and the poor kids were sweltering in the car.
Let`s hear from that person.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What were they doing inside the house?
HIERHOLZER: I don`t know. They`re all younger people. I`ve heard rumors, but I`m not going to accuse them of things. But I just -- probably not
anything up to any good.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Mike Taylor, what do we know about that party? Very quickly, like ten seconds?
TAYLOR: From what I understand, it went on until 5:00 in the morning, and that`s when Amanda went to sleep. That`s when Kevin Frankie allegedly got
in the car.
One real quick, people are saying that know Amanda. That they treated -- she treated her kids like pets. But who even leaves their pets in a hot
car and goes to sleep knowing they are out there in the heat?
LALAMA: Good point.
Tonight in Georgia, the FBI and the army are asking for help in tracking down the killer of 24-year-old Aubrey Boykin. Boykin was found dead in her
ft. Stewart, Georgia, home earlier this month. Her husband, who was deployed in South Korea, became concerned when she missed their daily phone
call. Investigators haven`t said how she died but are offering a $20,000 reward for information. They`re also still searching for her car, a 2018
black Honda accord with Georgia tag RLQ 1762.
Up next, outrage tonight after two toddlers are found wandering a Florida street alone and partially clothed. Cops describe their home as a
disgusting house of horrors. And now their mom is facing charges.
[19:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PAT LALAMA, HLN GUEST HOST: Tonight, a Florida mom faces six counts of child neglect after cops say her kids were found wandering the street. The
youngest was just 2 years old, and police found her not wearing pants. And when the officers found her siblings, they realized all six of the children
were covered with lice and sores.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANGIE SZYMANSKI, NEIGHBOR: Terrible. Terrible. I didn`t know that it was that bad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the inside?
SZYMANSKI: When we saw the pictures, that`s horrible.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All that we wanted was the kids to be well cared for.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Sara Resko would later tell officers that she`d only been gone a few minutes, but the kids had already told them that their mom had gone off
to work, leaving them home alone in a house that cops say was infested with flies, where they slept without beds, surrounded by dog feces and went
without running water.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAUREN LETTELIER, PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICER, MARION COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: We had some very experienced deputies go to this house, and they
said it`s the worst case of living conditions they`ve ever seen. They were unsupervised and they were not fed, and they were also living in a house
with no A.C., no electricity, no food.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: I want to bring in Ray Caputo, anchor and reporter of 96.5 WDBO. Also, Paul Bloom, public information officer for the Marion County
Sheriff`s Office, certified child welfare law specialist Ashley Willcott, and of course, Defense Attorney Mark Eiglarsh. Well, where do I begin with
this one? I think we need to go to officer Paul Bloom. Where is the mother? What`s the situation now with her?
[19:35:08] PAUL BLOOM, PUBLIC INFORMATION DIRECTOR, MARION COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Well, you know, the mother has posted her bond. And she is out of
jail right now. The children are still in the care of the state with the Department of Children and Families.
LALAMA: So, you`ve got all six children, correct?
BLOOM: That`s correct. The children are safe, and that`s our concern obviously right now. She was arrested, had a $12,000 bond. She bonded
out, and she`ll have a court date set soon.
LALAMA: Officer, you know, of course, everybody in the world says, how does this happen? How does it go unknown? What did you know about her, or
did you know anything about her and her family prior to this incident?
BLOOM: That is actually our third contact with her. So, we had similar incidents twice before, where someone had called about a child found
roaming the streets and an officer responded out there, located mom, and we turned that over to the Department of Children and Families at that points
as well, both those times. And both incidents were similar to this, the mother did return in those previous incidents fairly quickly back to the
home once we made contact with her. However, this time, this week, that did not happen. Two young babies were out in the middle of the road in an
intersection, matter of fact. And a concerned citizen stopped by and pulled them out of the intersection. One of the babies had no clothes on
from the waist down. So, this citizen was able to give them a towel to wear and of course, called us, and we were there for an hour and a half
before the mother showed up.
LALAMA: Yes, and she tried to tell you she had only been gone a couple of minutes, correct?
BLOOM: That`s correct. And our deputies quickly showed her that that was in fact a lie. And we had been into the house. We found four more
siblings. We were dealing with these two children and this picture pointed out their siblings that were down the road and in front of a house. And
so, we responded over there. We went into that home to check on those children to see if there was a parent at home, and the welfare of the
parent, if anybody was there. And of course, nobody was home, and the conditions that they found there were just -- I can tell you it shocked
these deputies that see quite a lot every day. And it shocked them to the point where this is probably the worst house they had set foot in, they
said, just the conditions, though.
LALAMA: Yes, it`s just horrifying. It`s absolutely horrifying. And Ashley Willcott, Willcott, excuse me. You know, it`s easy to jump on
children services, a lot of people think they`re public enemy number one, a lot of times they`re understaffed, overworked. I don`t know what the
scenario is. But if they`ve been there twice before, I don`t think the cockroaches just showed up yesterday, right?
ASHLEY WILLCOTT, CERTIFIED CHILD WELFARE LAW SPECIALIST: I don`t either.
LALAMA: Yes, go ahead.
WILLCOTT: No, I was going to say, I don`t either. But here`s the thing to keep in mind, it often happens, when a police or child services goes out to
a home, if a parent doesn`t want to cooperate, they don`t have to. And so, they don`t have to let you into the house. Now, there should have been
enough visible on the outside and the conditions of the children, but who`s to say or who`s to know, that mother didn`t let them in the house.
LALAMA: Well, explain something to me. So, as I understand it, there were supposed to be weekly visits, and the children services department says
that she didn`t keep up with the demand for the weekly visits and they kind of put it on her. I mean, isn`t it -- that`s on them to say, no, no, no,
we`re coming every week, whether you like it or not.
WILLCOTT: Absolutely. So, that`s where it broke down. That`s where the problem is. So, what they should have done and said, she`s not in
compliance, she`s not doing it, we need to file in court, right, to get the court involved, to get a court order to ensure these children are safe.
Because keep in mind, this is not just a simple neglect case. This is a whole host of types of neglect, you`ve got the lack of supervision, medical
neglect, all these other things that she`s committed against these kids.
LALAMA: So, officer Bloom, did you see or notice any signs of any physical abuse or sexual abuse on these children?
WILLCOTT: No, not there. We saw lice and bites and sores all over the children, and of course, encountered the same thing in the house, roaches,
dog feces, flies. Matter of fact, the officers there on the scene just really didn`t want to go to the house.
LALAMA: Oh, go ahead -- I believe, tell me in my ear if I`m wrong, that there is some sound of her being arrested and being just dumbfounded as to
why she`d be arrested. Let`s hear it.
SARA RESKO, ACCUSED OF CHILD NEGLECT: Can I just go get my shoes out of my car?
OFFICER: No, you can`t. You can`t --
RESKO: Let go of me.
OFFICER: Stop. Stop.
RESKO: Are you kidding me? (INAUDIBLE) for a second. I just have to get (INAUDIBLE)
OFFICER: They will get the password to your phone.
RESKO: This is so stupid.
OFFICER: Please sit down.
RESKO: I have a dress on.
OFFICER: OK. Well, turn around. Turn around.
RESKO: I can`t (INAUDIBLE)
OFFICER: Yes, you can. Sit. There you go.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: This is so stupid, I have a dress on. You got to be kidding me. Is this for real? Mark Eiglarsh, why the indignance? I mean, she`s got a
2-year-old baby walking around without pants on in the -- in the middle of the street, and she`s indignant!
[19:40:00] MARK EIGLARSH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Pat, I`m sick and I can`t wait for this segment to end, candidly. This is so disturbing, the facts are so
troubling for me. Listen, when your only two items in your refrigerator, allegedly is Dr. Pepper and the remains of Kool-Aid, you`re not mother of
the year.
LALAMA: Right. Well, it`s -- it just always gets me, that you can put six children on the earth and then be indignant to cops when your children are
naked and starving. So, there you go.
EIGLARSH: Yes.
LALAMA: As the desperate search for Mollie Tibbetts continues, the reward for information about the missing University of Iowa co-ed is now up to --
get this -- $172,000, and investigators are praying it brings some solid leads. The latest on the search is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:45:53] LALAMA: Tonight, a disappointing update in the case of Mollie Tibbetts, the 20-year-old college girl who disappeared while she was
dogsitting for her boyfriend over two weeks ago. Now, Mollie was last seen on an evening jog, running through this rural Iowa town, where
investigators say they`ve searched every property. And now, they`re delving into her Fitbit data, her social media posts, and tips like the one
that came in last week from a truck stop over 200 miles away. That`s where someone thought they spotted Mollie, eight days after she vanished, but
tonight, we know sadly that it wasn`t her, leaving Mollie`s family waiting and waiting for answers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAURA CALDERWOOD, MOTHER OF MOLLIE TIBBETTS: Every day I feel Mollie`s presence with me. You know, sometimes I just feel her sitting on my
shoulder. And Mollie was an incredibly strong young woman. And I don`t know that I have the strength in me, but Mollie`s lending me her strength
every day, every night.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: So, Karen Smith and Mark Eiglarsh are still with me. Joining us now, HLN`s Christi Paul, who has been on the scene covering the latest
developments. Christi?
CHRISTI PAUL, HLN ANCHOR: Pat, I`m in Brooklyn, Iowa, a small town with an awful lot of spunk, a lot of faith, these people are rallying behind the
Tibbetts family, and they are not going to lay down until they know that they`ve brought Mollie home. I`ve seen nothing like it before. There are
signs, as you can see, of Mollie in store fronts, plastered on cars, in people`s yards. This is a community that is saying, we are with you. And
that was so evident today in this extraordinary press conference 24 hours ago, this family had $2,000 as a reward to give for information that leads
to Mollie coming home safely. Right now, it`s $172,000, and that`s all just from private donations. Crimestoppers now also making that public.
So, if you feel so motivated to help this family and to try to bring Mollie home, you can donate as well.
We talked to or listened to the mother in this case, Laura, as she stood at that podium during this press conference talking about rallying people
together to get this money together. They believe that`s going to entice someone to talk, to let them know what they know. But also, how hard it is
for her in those moments of quiet, that she has her meltdowns, but despite that, that she feels her daughter`s presence is with her, she feels Mollie
sitting on her shoulder, and that those moments get her through as well. And in talking to her father, he said, yes, it`s those quiet moments of
silence that are hardest for him to handle, but that he is in no way, shape, or form going to give up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROB TIBBETTS, FATHER OF MOLLIE TIBBETTS: This is going to be solved by someone coming forward with information. Either information that they
think is trivial and not worth sharing, or information they think is going to implicate a loved one or a friend, and they`re afraid of doing that.
And I`ve been telling all of you, if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear. So come forward, share that information with the
authorities, and let`s bring Mollie home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL: And standing at this press conference with dad, with mom, with the brothers, Dalton Jack, he`s Mollie`s boyfriend, and he had an awful lot to
say to us about how he`s doing emotionally and how he reconciles the fact that there are people out there who want to incriminate him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DALTON JACK, BOYFRIEND OF MOLLIE TIBBETTS: I`ve been cleared by so many people and to be totally honest with you, I don`t care what they think. So
long as, you know, if they quit thinking that, you know, the guy that did it is standing right here, just keep our eyes peeled for anything at all
that you see, any suspicious activity. Because if you`re not helping, you`re hurting at this point, and you know, you just need to not be focused
in on me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[19:50:00] PAUL: And I think this family really wants you to just put yourself in their shoes. Because they`re doing the same thing. Rob
Tibbetts talked to me about the fact that Mollie isn`t the only one missing, he knows that there are other families going through exactly what
he`s going through now, and he said it has to stop, and it`s not going to stop until we collectively, together, make sure that we`re watching our
children, we`re teaching our children, and that we are putting these people who may hurt our children behind bars.
Now remember, he is also a dad who lives in California, which is far away from where we are here in Brooklyn, Iowa but he says until the police tell
him that he`s not helping anymore, he is parked here in Brooklyn and will not go back to California until he brings her home. Pat?
LALAMA: Thank you so much, Christi. So, Karen, in law enforcement, we know that money can be an incentive. Going from 2,000 to 172,000 in the
course of a day, is -- have you seen that kind of reward tip the scales as far as an investigation goes?
KAREN SMITH, RETIRED DETECTIVE: No, I`ve never seen a reward get that large that quickly and it`s also going to bring out people who are giving
false leads, people who are going to be calling, just wanting to collect the reward money and not help Mollie Tibbetts. And unfortunately, that`s
what happens when money becomes involved. You know, the money aside, this case, we`re dealing with a two-week timeline. And as we all know, that
first 48 hours is critical, and now we`re in the two weeks. So, regardless of the reward money, we need to find out what happened to Mollie.
LALAMA: So, Mark, let me ask you just not as a lawyer but as a human being, why do you -- in someone in the media, I`m always fascinated -- I
know when I was in America`s Most Wanted, there were so many people who wanted us to profile their cases. It was heartbreaking but we could only
pick a select few. Why is this one resonating so much with the public?
EIGLARSH: Candidly, she`s cute, period. And I`m not justifying it one way or another. There`s been a lot of people who complain about a less perfect
girl next door doesn`t get the same attention. That`s the bottom line. However, let`s not turn it into a negative. Thank you to you, thank you to
HLN for showcasing this. The only way that this is going to get solved potentially is through exposure. So, thank you to your network but we
could all do things, instead of putting on social media, you know, what we ate for dinner or how cute our dog is, maybe a picture of Mollie, and that
might lead to somebody saying something.
LALAMA: Absolutely. And you know, I was having a discussion with Mike Christian from here at HLN about the cops being tight lipped and it`s
frustrating for media, but I think in this case, Karen, very quickly, don`t you agree that, you know, they might know something that they`re not
telling us, it`s very important, and if they wanted to tell us something that would help them, they would. Do you not agree with that?
SMITH: I agree 100 percent.
LALAMA: I understand the frustration as a reporter, trust me, but they have to do this, I think.
SMITH: Yes, they do, they have to keep this close to the vest. Because, listen, if this ends up being -- God forbid -- foul play, they want to keep
all of those details undercover because they don`t want to tip off somebody who may have Mollie. They don`t want to give them hints about what they`re
doing or where they`re searching or the leads they`ve got. So, they have to keep it close to the vest at this point.
LALAMA: Well, maybe, just maybe they know more than they`re telling us, and I sure do hope so. How do you rescue a bear trapped in a car? This is
a very bad bear, too. Very, very carefully and wait until you see the mess he left behind. "ONE MORE THING," and it`s a good one, is next.
[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LALAMA: Imagine, you`re kayaking down swift, moving rapids as you`re about to head down a waterfall, an accident causes you to fall 20 feet onto a
rock and you know instantly you`re paralyzed. Doctors aren`t sure you`ll ever walk again. That`s what happened to one man until he met this week`s
CNN hero, Amanda Boxtel.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m a robot. My goal has always been to make a full recovery. And I think a lot of people thought that was farfetched. It was
a lot of hard work. I remember when I made this first couple of steps. That`s when I knew that making a full recovery was possible.
AMANDA BOXTEL, CNN HERO: He`s living the miracle of what we all want, and what we all aspire for, to stand up and to do it on our own. He`s doing
it. I haven`t witnessed that too often in my lifetime.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: To see Nate`s story and learn about Amanda`s amazing program, go to cnnheroes.com and you can donate to any of this year`s CNN Heroes at
crowdrise.com/cnnheroes.
"ONE MORE THING" for you tonight, you know how Yogi Bear was always on the lookout for a picnic basket? Well, check out this guy, a big, old black
bear is something you never want to see running from your own car.
END
