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At This Hour
Giuliani Now Says Trump Never Talked to Comey About Flynn; Russia Investigation Closing in on Roger Stone; Mayo Clinic Accused of Medically Kidnapping Teenager. Aired 11:30-12p ET
Aired August 13, 2018 - 11:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[11:30:00] KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Glenn, to try to help clarify, let me play one more piece of sound from Rudy Giuliani this morning. His explanation today on why he is not contradicting himself, that he is implementing a strategy. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUDY GIULIANI, ATTORNEY FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP: So, we have three defenses to that. Under Article II of the Constitution, you can't question why the president would say something. He has the power to say it. Number two, what he was saying is perfectly justifiable. He didn't say, you must, you have to, I will fire you if you don't. He said, consider it. Number three, he never said it. Lawyers argue like this -- we call it arguing in the alternative.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: Is that it?
GLENN KIRSCHNER, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: It's clear to me now. So, Kate let me --
(CROSSTALK)
BOLDUAN: I laugh because I'm quite confused. You are greater legal minds and minds in general. Is this -- what did he call it? Arguing the alternative. That's a thing. Is it what we are looking at?
KIRSCHNER: We see arguing in the alternative in court all the time. What it usually -- let me use a murder trial. The defense will say my client did not kill the victim. If he did, he did it in self-defense. That doesn't play well. I don't think this nonsense we hear from Mr. Giuliani will play well with the American public or if we end up in impeachment hearings in the House. Let me tell you about my experience with Bob Mueller and what I have drown from it. When he was my chief of homicide at the United States attorneys office for the District of Columbia and I was one of his prosecutors. You don't negotiate with Bob Mueller. If you need a question answered, guidance, approval, you stand outside his door at 6:30 in the morning. He gives you three minutes to explain the issue. Gives you information or the answer you need. It was always right legally and ethically. You don't negotiate with the man. I don't believe for a minute that Bob Mueller has been on the other side of this negotiation with Mr. Giuliani. This is all Mr. Giuliani all the time. When Mr. Giuliani says, I'm going to set the terms of the interview between Mr. Mueller and President Trump so he is not permitted to ask him questions about what the president said to James Comey about laying off Mike Flynn, basically, Mr. Giuliani is saying that Bob Mueller shouldn't be allowed to ask the president anything I incriminating or relevant to the investigation. That's pure nonsense. As a 30-year federal prosecutor, we don't negotiate interviews with targets, which the president may have ripened into. This is nonsense.
BOLDUAN: You are talking about the president of the United States. It's something different. This is an investigation -- we are saying like no other.
When it comes to the timing, does it -- it's something of a negotiation though, Jennifer. If they're going to get it done -- Giuliani kind of confusing a little bit on that front as well. He said that if they don't sit down by September, Trump isn't going to sit down at all. If it isn't done by September, the investigation should be terminated completely, he said, on FOX News this morning.
My question is, September comes and goes and then nothing happens, Rudy Giuliani then does what?
JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Rudy Giuliani will start to say it's over. There are a couple things going on. One, I agree with Glenn there's not as much negotiating as Giuliani wants us to think there's. I think there's some communication between the two about what's been going on and what will happen and so on. There's a Department of Justice guideline that you are not supposed to affect elections. Giuliani says it's a rule or law or something more firm than it is. I think the special counsel will try not to impact the November mid-terms if he can. I don't think he will issue his report a week before the elections. There's a time frame he won't do anything.
(CROSSTALK)
BOLDUAN: Doesn't mean he will terminate the investigation.
RODGERS: Correct. They would wait until a time after the election when no one could claim they are trying to harm the president and his party by proceeding right before the election. There's a lot going on. Whatever we hear from Giuliani again, I'm not sure that we should listen to it except -- I don't even know what, talk about it on TV.
(CROSSTALK)
BOLDUAN: Jennifer, you are not allowed to plug your ears. It doesn't work that way.
(CROSSTALK)
KIRSCHNER: It makes us feel better, doesn't it?
BOLDUAN: Not in this reality --
(CROSSTALK) BOLDUAN: -- unless we're all doing it together and we look crazy.
Thank you so much. Until tomorrow, when I ask about Giuliani again.
[11:34:39] Coming up, speaking of Robert Mueller, subpoenas, yet another. He subpoenaed another close associate of Roger Stone. This one is a man Roger Stone called his back channel to WikiLeaks. Does the special counsel have Stone in their crosshairs? What's happening now?
We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BOLDUAN: The circle in the Russia investigation could be closing in on Roger Stone. Three people who are or were close to him have been called to testify. Special Counsel Robert Mueller has subpoenaed Randy Credico, the man Stone claimed was his back channel to WikiLeaks founder, Julian Assange, during the 2016 campaign. Another of Stone's close friends, Kristin Davis, known as the Manhattan Madam, she testified last week before the grand jury in the Russia investigation. And one of Stone's former aides, Andrew Miller, he is refusing to appear before the grand jury, defying a subpoena, and he was held in contempt because of it. What does this all mean?
Joining me right now, former Trump aide, senior adviser to Steve Bannon, an associate of Roger Stone, who testified before the grand jury, Sam Nunberg, is here.
Sam, thank you for coming in.
[11:40:24] SAM NUNBERG, FORMER TRUMP AIDE & FORMER SENIOR ADVISOR TO STEVE BANNON: Thank you.
BOLDUAN: Let's talk about Andrew Miller. What does Miller know, do you think, that Robert Mueller would be interested in?
NUNBERG: I think Robert Mueller is looking at Stone now because this is very legitimate. He has to figure out there are so many stories out there, what was Roger's connection to Assange, if there was one. Somebody that's critical is Andrew, would be Randy Credico. Andrew has controlled Roger's schedule. He is young but a CFO type. He is organized, a CEO type. He does operations. Something along those lines. He is like an adopted son to Roger.
BOLDUAN: You testified before the grand jury.
NUNBERG: Yes.
BOLDUAN: Andrew, he is fighting the subpoena. What would you tell him to do?
NUNBERG: He is fighting the subpoena on a very important issue that we in conservative legal circles have been interested in. There's a "Wall Street Journal" editorial about it. It deals with the appointment clause. The argument is that Robert Mueller was given this de facto, you know, he's ruling this fiefdom in the Justice Department. We are going over, why hasn't he, under the Constitution, followed he had to get clearance or get nominated by the Senate.
BOLDUAN: You think he should fight the subpoena?
NUNBERG: Yes, on constitutional grounds.
BOLDUAN: Do you think that any other grounds that he would be -- do you know that's why he is fighting the subpoena?
NUNBERG: Yes, that's what happened. What happened was that he took it to the D.C. circuit court. His lawyer said that they are going to appeal this to the Supreme Court. He has standing because he has this subpoena. He can argue, look, this is illegitimate.
BOLDUAN: It's something you agree -- you are with Andrew Miller on that point. You initially said you were not going to testify. Then you ended up testifying. Why then?
NUNBERG: Because, one, I had nothing to hide.
BOLDUAN: Does Andrew Miller have something to hide?
NUNBERG: I don't know. I don't know. I don't think so. What I think, as I said, Roger Stone is a critical piece for Mueller. He is a critical --
BOLDUAN: Were you asked about Roger Stone?
NUNBERG: Yes.
BOLDUAN: What was he interested in, in terms of Roger Stone, in the Clinton grand jury --
NUNBERG: In the grand jury, specifically, he was interested in as opposed to the voluntary, what Roger had told me about Julian Assange, his communications with Julian Assange and his relationship with the campaign and then with Donald Trump post campaign.
BOLDUAN: Stone's clearly in the spotlight. You called him -- you were close with him.
NUNBERG: I was.
BOLDUAN: You called him a mentor but last week you said that Stone is going to be indicted.
NUNBERG: This isn't something I support. Looking at what Mueller is doing, Mueller is following -- people that don't support the special counsel -- he is following the Watergate model. You get everyone around this president, you show this are corrupt and in some way connected to Russians, in terms of Manafort. And you get Roger, who you can say, they will get on a sexy charge on the top of the indictment, saying, well, he conspired to defraud America somehow with these e-mails. I don't know how. They will put financial stuff in the back. Which is why I suspect they want Miller, why they want Davis. They asked me about -- the minute I walked in they said, within five minutes, who has Roger worked for? During -- since you have known him, list everybody you have known. I said, I don't know. What I have heard, I can give you.
BOLDUAN: Do you believe Stone or do you think that he has done something wrong?
NUNBERG: What I think -- the only thing I think Roger did wrong was he conspired against himself. What I think Roger has done is he wanted to insinuate himself into this election. After he left the campaign, he wanted -- in light of the profile that he has --
(CROSSTALK)
BOLDUAN: You don't think he used Randy Credico to speak to Julian Assange? You don't think he got a heads up on any e-mails that were coming, any leaks that were coming?
NUNBERG: I don't think so. When Roger told me he met with Julian Assange, which was a joke, he said there were going to be e-mails specifically related to the Clinton Foundation. All I know is Assange never really released anything related to the Clinton Foundation.
BOLDUAN: Stone, in response to when you said you think he is going to be indicted, he had quite a few things to say, very few, I'm going to say on television. He called you a back stabber and said you will be indicted before he ever is. Is this now between you two anything more than, I don't know, a personal fight?
NUNBERG: Not at all. Roger can be mad at me. When I say Roger is going to get indicted, I don't think this is fair. I don't think Roger did anything with these e-mails. If something comes out that I don't know of, then --
(CROSSTALK)
BOLDUAN: Have you spoken to him?
[11:45:04] NUNBERG: No. I can't and I won't. It wouldn't be good for him and it wouldn't be good for me. I don't want to get accused -- he can get accused of witness tampering, issues like that.
BOLDUAN: You worked for the Trump campaign. You worked for Trump before that.
NUNBERG: In 2011.
(CROSSTALK)
BOLDUAN: Have you signed an NDA --
(CROSSTALK()
NUNBERG: I was sued for violating my NDA.
BOLDUAN: Have you looked at the NDA that the "Washington Post" has published?
NUNBERG: Omarosa's?
BOLDUAN: Yes.
NUNBERG: I looked at the specific, the disparagement clause, if that's what you mean.
BOLDUAN: Yes, the disparagement clause. Did your NDA include that?
NUNBERG: Yes.
BOLDUAN: You were sued during the campaign because of it?
(CROSSTALK)
NUNBERG: Well, that's what they said. We settled it amicably.
BOLDUAN: Your reaction to being offered $15,000 a month to sign an NDA by the re-election campaign?
NUNBERG: I think Trump, the president, and his people around him have learned -- I worked for him for four and a half years. I support this president. I will never say he treated me well. I think that they have learned, we have to keep these people around somehow, and keep them in the net, if we're going to let them go.
Part of this issue with Omarosa is, I don't understand -- everybody can say she should not have taped, recorded in the -- if you are John Kelly and she's the most senior -- she's very senior in the West Wing and African-American, how could you not have met with her until you wanted to fire her?
BOLDUAN: I'm interested in your take on the NDA. Was this -- this was -- you don't seem surprised that this NDA was out there. You think -- does everyone sign these?
NUNBERG: Everyone was asked to sign. When I worked for Mr. Trump in 2011 for them, until I went in as the first permanent hire, I never had an NDA. I didn't look at the NDA when I signed it. I would never think I said anything. I never said anything disparaging about his business or family. There's a distension without a difference for him. I ended up endorsing Ted Cruz after he fired me. But I'm not surprised. They have been doing these NDAs. Some political campaigns have them, by the way, but not a lot.
BOLDUAN: Sam Nunberg, thanks for coming in.
NUNBERG: Thanks very much.
BOLDUAN: Always a lot of questions. I appreciate your time.
NUNBERG: Thank you.
BOLDUAN: Thank you so much. Coming up for us, medically kidnapped. That's what one family says happened to their teenage daughter at the world-famous Mayo Clinic. The shocking allegations, the story now coming out. We will tell it to you.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[11:51:33] BOLDUAN: It is a shocking accusation that the world- famous Mayo Clinic would medically kidnap a patient, but a teenager accuses the hospital of keeping her there against her will.
CNN's senior medical correspondent, Elizabeth Cohen, is joining me now with more on this.
Elizabeth, what is this about?
DR. ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Kate, Alyssa Gilderhus was 18 years old when she says the Mayo Clinic saved her life and then wouldn't let her go.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COHEN (voice-over): Alyssa Gilderhus and her family say they experienced the seemingly unthinkable. In this e-mail to police, Alyssa's mother says her 18-year-old daughter was medically kidnapped by the world-famous Mayo Clinic.
(on camera): Do you think they were trying to medically kidnap you?
ALYSSA GILDERHUS, MAYO CLINIC PATIENT: Yes, I completely do. Not a doubt in my mind.
COHEN (voice-over): This was Alyssa on Christmas eve in 2016 with her family in Minnesota. On Christmas day, a blood vessel burst inside her brain. She had emergency surgery at the Mayo Clinic. Doctors gave her a 2 percent chance of surviving.
(on camera): How did those neurosurgeons do?
AMBER GILDERHUS, MOTHER OF ALYSSA: Fantastic.
JASON GILDERHUS, FATHER OF ALYSSA: Phenomenal.
AMBER GILDERHUS: They saved her life.
COHEN (voice-over): After a month, she moved to the rehabilitation unit at Mayo with new doctors.
(on camera): When you had opinions or thoughts about Alyssa's care? Did they listen to you?
AMBER GILDERHUS: No.
JASON GILDERHUS: I don't feel they did at all. COHEN: Did they seem annoyed with you?
AMBER GILDERHUS: Yes.
JASON GILDERHUS: Because we were parent, not the doctors. They knew everything, and we didn't.
COHEN (voice-over): The tension eventually exploded, and Mayo kicked Alyssa's mother out of the hospital after they say she interrupted a meeting. In a statement, Mayo told us, "Family members may be restricted in situations where care may be compromised or the safety and security of our staff are potentially at risk."
Alyssa's mother said she didn't do either. Alyssa begged for her mother.
Family friend, Joyce Smith
JOYCE SMITH, FAMILY FRIEND: She cried.
COHEN (on camera): Was that tough?
SMITH: Very.
COHEN (voice-over): Alyssa says she finally had enough.
(on camera): Did you want out of the Mayo Clinic?
ALYSSA GILDERHUS: As bad as possible, yes.
COHEN (voice-over): But what happened next is alarming. Alyssa and her parents say Mayo wouldn't let her go.
(on camera): Did you ask to have her transferred to another hospital?
AMBER GILDERHUS: We did.
CDOHEN: And what did Mayo say?
AMBER GILDERHUS: They said no.
COHEN (voice-over): A lawyer even wrote this letter asking for an expedited transfer to another hospital.
JASON GILDERHUS: It felt like you weren't from a healing place to a prison.
COHEN: So Alyssa's parents hatched an escape plan. They pulled a trick on the staff to get her out of Mayo, and they documented it on video. They told them that Alyssa's Grandma Betty, had come to visit but was too frail to come inside the hospital. So Alyssa had to come to her.
(CROSSTALK)
COHEN: But when they arrived at the car, there's no Grandma Betty. It's Alyssa's mother.
AMBER GILDERHUS: We're going home.
COHEN: Watch as a nurse's aide grabs Alyssa's arm.
(CROSSTALK)
AMBER GILDERHUS: Come on, honey. We're going home.
COHEN (on camera): How did it feel the minute you hopped into your parent's car?
ALYSSA GILDERHUS: A relief. Like the biggest weight off your shoulders of all. It was phenomenal. The longer I'm away from Mayo Clinic, the better.
COHEN (voice-over): After Alyssa left, Mayo called 911 and said they'd had a patient abduction. But Rochester police tell CNN that Mayo was wrong. They said Alyssa was 18, an adult making a legal choice to leave the hospital.
[11:55:10] JASON GILDERHUS: There was no abduction. There was no violation of law. Essentially, you had a patient that left the hospital under their own planning with the assistance of family members.
COHEN: Months later, Alyssa and her family learned a secret while looking at police records. Just before Alyssa escaped, a Mayo social worker had tried to get court orders for emergency guardianship for Alyssa.
(on camera): If you had not gotten Alyssa out of the Mayo Clinic, where do you think she'd be?
AMBER GILDERHUS: She would not be in a good place.
JASON GILDERHUS: I think it would have been the end of us ever getting to see Alyssa again.
COHEN: So why was Mayo trying to get emergency guardianship for Alyssa? A county official told police that the Mayo Clinic was concerned for the medical decisions being made for Alyssa.
Alyssa signed this privacy release form so Mayo could speak freely to CNN. But Mayo wouldn't answer our questions on the record. "We will not address these questionable allegations or publicly share the facts of this complex situation because we do not believe it's in the best interest of the patient and the family. Our internal review determined that the care team's actions were true to Mayo Clinic's primary value, that the patient's needs come first. We acted in a manner that honored that value for this patient."
Alyssa and her parents think Mayo was trying to get guardianship in retaliation for questioning doctors.
(END VIDEOTAPE) COHEN: Alyssa says, despite everything that happened, she says she'll always be grateful to the Mayo Clinic for saving her life after the aneurysm -- Kate?
BOLDUAN: Elizabeth, how is Alyssa doing now?
COHEN: She's doing really well, Kate. In March, she stopped her physical therapy and her speech therapy. She didn't need it anymore. And she's starting college next month.
BOLDUAN: Wow. That's at least great to hear.
Thank you so much, Elizabeth.
COHEN: You bet.
BOLDUAN: Thank you for bringing us that story.
Coming up for us, more on our breaking news. The FBI fires embattled FBI Agent Peter Strzok. What does it mean for the Russia probe moving forward? What's the reason behind the firing? Much more after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
