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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield
Autistic child restrained by a police officer; the search for Mollie Tibbetts. Aired 6-8p ET
Aired August 13, 2018 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
[18:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- Thanks for watching. I`m B.D. Wong. Good night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re deeply in love.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Judge, I did not do this. I don`t know why this has to keep going on. I mean, my life has been ruined.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There would have to be some motive, some reason why a person would kill another person.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tonight, was a newlywed murder victim really killed by a mysterious illness?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t have any answer for what happened to her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her husband has been serving ten years.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I love Sarah. I would never hurt her, never.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After she drown in the bathtub.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The call came in there was a female individual in the bathtub, she had drowned.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But could the dead woman`s DNA clear him of her murder?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Initial report was that it was believe that she had fallen asleep and drowned in the tub.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was her death nothing more than a medical tragedy?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Although the preliminary cause of death was drowning, there is evidence that there was some traumatic injury and some use of
violent force against her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A 10-year-old autistic boy acting up in class, is treated like a regular criminal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you want the handcuffs? OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why does the school stand behind the officer? Pinned him down and face planted him. The boy`s parents demand a different
answer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This officer is put there to protect and serve our children. And he abused a disabled little boy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Plus the teacher who took discipline to the tabletop, grabbing the student by the throat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He didn`t say anything up until he put his hand on me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But he says it was self-defense from a troubled and violent teen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was in fear of a head butt or something like that or if he was carrying something.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And he is doubling down on his decision.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you justify your behavior? How do you feel when you watch that video?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was just putting him back.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are doing everything we can and fighting so hard to find you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The urgent search for a young woman who vanished after moving to a new city with her boyfriend.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just walking in here to a barren home. It will never be the same.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who could she had been with in the early hours after work?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was saying she was going to go out with, you know, some guy that she met at the store a couple days ago, which is
something that is not like her. I mean, that is not something that she would do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There will be millions of Iowans here. It`s going to be people here in the state that saw something or knows something that get
back to the authorities with that information that ultimately will bring Mollie back.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Plus, the search for Mollie Tibbetts, the college girl who disappeared while jogging.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know who those two guys were. They took her to the fire station.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What could a local pig farmer know about her whereabouts?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know even remember what they asked me. It is a waste of time, I thought.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We might find out soon, because he is just agreed to the lie detector test.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HOST, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE: Good Monday evening, everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. Welcome to "Crime and Justice."
Tonight, what killed a brand new bride if her husband didn`t do it? And could a rare illness be the culprit instead of murder? Because Ryan Widmer
has been in jail for ten years, convicted of drowning his wife Sarah while she was just soaking in the tub. Here is what he told the police when he
called 911.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JON WHEELER, FORMER CHIEF OF HAMILTON TOWNSHIP P.D.: The call came in that there was a female individual in a bathtub and she had drown. The initial
report was that it was believed that she had fallen asleep and drown in the tub.
RACHEL HUTZEI, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Although the preliminary cause of death was drowning, there is evidence that there was some traumatic injury and
some use of violent force against her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Ryan told the cops that he had been watching TV downstairs and when he went upstairs, he says, he found Sarah lying face down. He did
everything a good husband would do, pulling her limp body from the tub and then attempting CPR, but Ryan might not have been such a good husband,
because according to the responding officers, Sarah`s bathtub was mostly dry and so was Sarah`s body.
[18:05:05] And while Sarah`s hair was wet, her injuries did not match up with what most people get when they get CPR. It took three different
trials to get an answer. But her husband was eventually found guilty of murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The verdict reads, we, the jury in this case, duly empaneled and sworn and affirmed find the defendant, Ryan K. Widmer is
guilty of murder.
RYAN WIDMER, CONVICTED OF KILLING HIS WIFE: Judge, I did not do this. I don`t know why this has to keep going on. I mean, my life has been ruined.
It`s not because of me. I loved Sarah. I would never have hurt her, never. This has gone on for 2 1/2 years now. I don`t have any answer for
what happened to her. All I want is the answer, they have not given a chance. We had hired a doctors to try to figure out what happened to her,
and depleted the money and this has keeps going on and on because 12 hours after she is died, I`m charged with murder. I mean, I don`t have anything
to say other than -- this is just not right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: That pleading husband is asking for a fourth trial now and a federal Judge could grant that to him at any day, because there`s a brand
new theory about some age-old evidence that could set Ryan free after ten years behind bars.
Joining me tonight, Janice Hisle is the author of "Submerged," Ryan Widmer, his drown bride and the justice system. Also certified death investigator
and professor of forensic at Jacksonville state University, Joseph Scott Morgan it with us. And defense attorney, Brian Claypool, is here as well.
Janice, if I can begin with you, it seems like the forensics did not add up to the story that Ryan Widmer gave. And yet, when you see him pleading in
court like that, it makes you think twice.
JANICE HISLE, AUTHOR OF SUBMERGED: Well, actually Ryan never testified during any of his trials, and when I was doing research for the book that I
just released, I did get to learn what he said his full account was. And furthermore, I found documents that kind of back up that account. I didn`t
find any inconsistencies beyond the initial statements. In his 911 call he said something else about her position being face down. However, he says
that was a misstatement. And a lot of people wonder, how would that have benefited him if he said face up, face down?
They wonder about the other things about his wife. For example, she did fall asleep in odd places, in crowded bars, parties. And then I found out
something while I was digging through documents in his lawyer`s basement. I found a document where Ryan gave an account for his lawyers, and he gave
permission for his lawyers to give me everything for my book. And he says in this document that she was walking on her tiptoes as she went up to take
that bath.
That just struck me very odd, and I did some further checking and found out that there are some documents that indicate it could have been some type of
a neurological condition that would cause a person to walk in that manner. This was never brought up during any of his trials. So, there was an
expert I spoke to who said it`s not fair that the DNA was never checked. And so that is why this expert in my book is giving new life, so to speak,
to the argument that the DNA should be released.
BANFIELD: Well, I`m going to ask in a moment about that issue of her walking on her tiptoes and whether that has any significance with regard to
this new argument that a medical condition, something called long QT syndrome, may, in fact, have caused her death in that bathtub as opposed to
murder. But you just mentioned that face-up, face-down issue. And we actually have that part of the 911 call and the questions about it. It`s
from investigation discovery. I`ll ask for the control room to queue up sound bite number two. Because he specifically talks about the face-up or
face-down issue. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In your 911 call you said she was lying face down in the water.
WIDMER: I mean I never said face down, I know I said she was face down, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. You say face down in the water.
WIDMER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. So was she face down or was she face up?
WIDMER: She was looking up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Tell me what happens next?
WIDMER: I mean, my first thing was to pull her upper part of her body out of the water.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop right there. So she is laying face up in the water. Did you pull her out of the water?
WIDMER: Just her upper part of her body, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You never pulled her out of the water? Not out of the water?
WIDMER: Not her whole body, no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How much water was there?
[18:10:00] WIDMER: I mean, it was up to the -- what do you call the drain plug --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You mean the overflow.
WIDMER: Yes. The overflow.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn`t try to pull her out of the water?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why not?
WIDMER: I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You look very much capable of picking her up out of that water.
WIDMER: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: I mean it`s fascinating, Janice, to hear that, but the same token there is this testimony from a friend, someone albeit who befriended
Ryan Widmer while he was in behind bars who said Ryan that admitted to her I did it. I think the actual quote is, I did it, I did it, I killed Sarah.
I did it. So how does that factor into this new argument that maybe, in fact, it was this medical condition, long QT syndrome instead?
HISLE: Well, interestingly jurors that I spoke to indicated that they did not believe his assertion. So that brings a whole new wrinkle into the
debate, the problem with Sarah`s health was explored somewhat during the case, but there was never any testing done to determine whether she had
narcolepsy or this long QT syndrome. And actually this has been fought in the courts since 2011. There was a preservation order issued by the trial
judge, so they`re required to preserve any DNA evidence that still exists. Now, Sarah was cremated, so it leaves the authorities in possession of the
only known source of her DNA.
BANFIELD: So I want to, if I can, play this moment where Ryan Widmer`s twin brother Aryan, speaks about the notion that they want to test the DNA
for long QT syndrome, to bring that up if, in fact, there is a fourth trial. And as I do that, listen for the actual descriptions of what that
does to a person, specifically what it may have done to Sarah Widmer, if she was, in fact, having a bath and if she had, in fact, been overcome by
the symptoms. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARYAN WIDMER, RYAN WIDMER`S BROTHER: We can have them done, testing, to determine what sort of disease, and we feel there was a good chance she had
this long QT syndrome. Her constant headaches or sleepiness she seemed to have all the time, we feel most confident it could be a good possibility of
what she said.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: So Joseph Scott Morgan, I had never heard of long QT syndrome. I don`t know how rare it is. I don`t know if, in fact, it causes you to be
narcoleptic, fall asleep, have heart palpitations as Ryan`s family described. But you`re the certified death investigator. Can you explain
it?
JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, PROFESSOR OF FORENSIC, JACKSONVILLE STATE UNIVERSITY: Yes. Long QT syndrome is a condition that affects the rhythm of a heart.
And it causes almost a pause in the circulatory system for a moment. This can lead to a condition called tachycardia which could, in fact, make
someone light headed and this sort of thing. And it can in fact, if the tachycardia goes on too long which is this rhythm event, it can, in fact,
be lethal in certain cases. Is it rare or not? It`s not particularly rare, but it`s not something you come across every single day.
BANFIELD: So the other thing, Joe, is that her co-workers, they actually said she often fell asleep in her car in the mornings, that she napped
during her lunch break, that she fell asleep at a bar with a table full of women there and that she frequently complained about headaches and stomach
aches. Does that sound like it squares with long QT syndrome?
MORGAN: Well, I`m not really sure about that. It does sound like she is suffering from some kind of fatigue event, in the event she had fallen
asleep in the tub and you know, had gone under, but there`s so much other evidence that you have to come, you know, that you have to egress through
in addition to just whether long QT syndrome is present. They could do genetic testing and see if she was predisposed to this condition. I would
say, yes, go ahead and do it. But it`s still not going to explain away the extensive injuries that she had to her body.
BANFIELD: OK. So, some of those forensics that you just describe, if we`re going to discredit the long QT syndrome and falling asleep in the
bathtub, Brian Claypool, this is where you come in handy, as a defense attorney, here are the issues that were real uphill issues, so to speak,
for his defense team. Sarah`s body was warm. The police noticed a few weird things at the crime scene. Not only was it warm, it appeared to be
dry. Her hair was wet, but the towel was dry. The bathtub itself was mostly dry. A few droplets of water around the actual drain. They tested
negative for blood, but there was some blood found on the carpet of the bedroom.
[18:15:00] A Lysol wipe was recovered in the bathroom. They said the stains on the master bedroom carpet. There was unknown female
contributor`s DNA underneath her fingernails. The bathtub had streak marks in the middle and some fingerprint marks that couldn`t be identified. The
fingertip markings were in a downward position, somewhat of a small stature and forearm impressions on the tub were determined to be of an adult
nature. So, as a defense attorney, how does long QT square into the argument now?
BRIAN CLAYPOOL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Ashleigh, first of all, just so your viewers know, in order to get this writ of habeas corpus granted, that
Widmer`s lawyers had filed, it can`t be just based on, gee, Judge, can you take a look at this evidence again, this doesn`t look like a murder, it
really isn`t a murder. I`m a good husband, I love my wife. It has to be based on a constitutional argument. And the argument they`ve got to make,
which I think they have some merit for, is that, it`s a violation of Widmer`s due process rights guaranteed under the constitution to not find
an answer.
Remember, criminal trials are search for the truth. They need an answer. Get her DNA, find out whether if she had long QT syndrome. If she did, in
my opinion, constitutionally, that warrants a new trial to allow his lawyers then to argue that, look, you have all this other evidence you`ve
mentioned, but really the cause of her death is this long QT syndrome that led her to drown.
BANFIELD: The tippy-toe part is certainly fascinating. But just one answer real quickly, Brian, I am out of time, that will they be able to
bring that new evidence into a fourth trial, of the tiptoeing up to the bathtub?
CLAYPOOL: Yes. Absolutely, Ashleigh. If they can get the new trial, they can get that new evidence in.
BANFIELD: Fascinating. My thanks to Janice Hisle and also Joseph Scott Morgan. Brian Claypool, I am going to ask you to stick around if you would
please.
There is some outrageous video that I have for you tonight of a 10-year- old, not only 10, but autistic being put in handcuffs at his school, reportedly sustaining cuts and bruises, all this at the hands of the school
resource officer. What could a 10-year-old child have done to warrant such man handling? And before you make that judgment, is it possible, just
possible that this officer is completely cleared and that the 10-year-old is in the wrong? I`m going to answer that in a moment.
[18:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: Tonight a teacher in North Georgia is out of a job, not because of budget cuts, but because he fought with a student. Tonight he is
breaking his silence and he is describing why he grabbed a 17-year-old by the throat, dragged him onto a cafeteria table and choked him for nearly a
minute. When the student wouldn`t clean up his mess. According to Tim Garner, this was self-defense.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn`t say anything up until he put his hand on me. When he did that, you know, I reacted because he was right up on me. I put
him back because I didn`t want to get hit. The next thing, I wanted to control his hitting hand. He is right hand dominant. I`ve never seen him
throw a punch with his left hand.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: So all of this happened at a school for students with troubled records. Garner says he feared that this student had a weapon on him. But
Garner is no longer teaching there, because now he is been charged with child cruelty and aggravated assault.
In the meantime, a school resource officer in Texas is going to be keeping his job. All of this after handling a special needs student who was
reportedly poking and pinching classmates and eventually kicking and spitting on the school cop, not to mention slamming his own head repeatedly
to the ground. Officer Eric Coulston was called to that classroom in the hope of calming that student down. When the 10-year-old autistic student
climbed into a cubby and officer Coulston offered to assist, the child`s parents say he did just the opposite. In fact, they say he abused their
son.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hop out of the cubby, you can bring these with you. I`ll hold them. Come on. Hop out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you want help?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Uh-huh.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. We`re back to where we were the other day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[18:25:00] BANFIELD: That little boy`s parents say their son is covered with scratches and bruises and suffering emotionally after this experience,
but the school district is backing the officer, saying he made the right call, because the student was, quote, a detriment to his own safety. With
me now on the phone, investigative reporter Kate Delaney, also Emily Brown, she is the mother of that 10-year-old child. Michael Hullum (ph) is the
representative for the Brown family and a special education advocate. Tom Verni is with me, former NYPD detective and law enforcement consultant and
defense attorney Brian Claypool remains with us as well.
Kate, I want to begin with you if I can. I outlined some of the things that the child was doing before the resource officer showed up. But can
you fill in the picture a little more and tell me everything that was going on before the beginning of this incident?
KATE DELANEY, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Yes. From what I understand, Ashleigh, what happened was 10-year-old Thomas Brown started to act up a
little bit. As we know, he is autistic. And what I was told and what`s been reported is he started to swing a computer mouse around and that he
was acting out. Typically what they do in this situation is they take him to a place called a soothing room which is what the school resource
officer, Eric Coulston as you mentioned did. He took him to that soar room, but the problem was, and you saw that on the body cam video that you
showed that was horrifying, they face planted him. You mentioned the scratches and everything that resulted as a result of him being pushed down
to the ground. Plus he was handcuffed. It was then two hours later from what I understand before the parents were called. This video which is
coming out, this body cam video. This happened back in April at the Alexander Elementary School.
BANFIELD: So, Kate, I couldn`t hear what you called the room that he was taken to. What`s that called?
DELANEY: They called it a soar room. And I checked with a doctor who has just written a book called "Autism matters." That she told me that one in
59 kids in our lifetime will suffer with autism and it`s something the schools have to deal with and deal with correctly. The sore room is kind
of a shocker to a lot of people.
BANFIELD: Am I hearing you correctly, a sewer room, s-e-w-e-r.
DELANEY: No soar, s-o-a-r.
BANFIELD: A soar room, OK, that is certainly a different connotations, thank you. I do have a few other description of the child`s behavior. And
by the way, I want our viewers to know this is a 10-year-old child and typically would not show him or name him. But Emily Brown, his mom, and
his dad as well have released this video to us and they have allowed us to use his name and to show his image, because they are very concerned about
what happened to their son.
The description that we received about the behavior was that little Thomas was swinging around a computer mouse close to the other kids, poking and
pinching them, shoving their belongings to the floor, tearing up papers on the teacher`s desk and then when asked, he would not leave the classroom at
which point the resource officer came in, picked him up and carried him to what you call a soar room. But I want to play this moment. And I should
also mentioned that this is a body cam that was on the resource officer. So the resource officer is coming into this situation with a body cam
rolling and knowingly so. At some point the body cam was knocked off. It`s turned back on. But at least you`re going to see some of what
happened when this child was actually notified. I`m going to show this video to your parents. Have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re going to hurt yourself, Thomas, come on. Stop. Sit back down or we`re going to lay back down on our stomach.
You do that again I`m going to lay you back down on your stomach.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know something? Everything you`re doing right now is being recorded and I`m going to show the video to your parents.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lay down.
No. You`re going to spit. No.
Stop.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: No matter, you know, what you think, that is extremely difficult to watch. Emily Brown, if I can ask you, there had been an incident a week
before with little Thomas. I`m not sure, did it involve handcuffs as well as this most recent incident?
EMILY BROWN, MOTHER OF THAT 10-YEAR-OLD CHILD: It did.
BANFIELD: do you know why handcuffs were used? And was handcuffs something that was standard operating procedure if a child was thought to be a danger
to himself or others?
BROWN: Not that we have approved.
BANFIELD: OK.
BROWN: And not that was ever discussed.
BANFIELD: Not that was ever discussed. And Michael Holum, as her education adviser, I mean for those who don`t understand the special needs
environment in schools, a lot of parents have advocates, advisers who can help them navigate the system. And my assumption is this is the role that
you`ve been helping the Brown family with.
And certainly, correct me if I am wrong. But the notion of discussing what kinds of consequences and behavioral treatments are allowed for certain
students, this was very different for Thomas. And I am just going to put up on the screen the behavior intervention plan that the Brown family had
agreed to, knowing that Thomas is autistic and will have episodes.
So if I can just go through it. At first, a signal of non-verbal disapproval is to be alerted to the child. And then ask the student to
practice an appropriate response. Offer the student the choice of changing the behavior or going to the cooling off area. Teacher initiated cooling
off period. Provide redirect examination toward alternative or appropriate behavior.
Limit use of words such as no or stop doing and then physical escort. Mr. Holum, what if none of that works? And what if a child is losing it and
does become dangerous to himself or others? Is it appropriate then to physically restrain this child?
MICHAEL HOLUM, BROWN FAMILY REPRESENTATIVE: Well, Ashleigh, under Texas state law, you have to look at a Texas administrative code which governs
the use of restraints. And that statute specifically says that there has to be imminent serious danger to the child himself or others. Again, in
looking at the video, I need someone to articulate to me intelligently that this child was a serious imminent danger.
I realize that the police department`s report from this officer, saying that he was spinning a mouse and those things, there is no evidence of
that. If that body cam -- I believe this is probably the first time that I am aware of, and I have been doing this over eight years, that I have been
able to see a live body cam inside of a special education setting like that because it`s a confidential area.
BANFIELD: You know and I agree. I would think that it`s also highly litigious issue. You know, children of special needs -- parents of special
needs children have been embroiled in litigation with school divisions all across the country. And so I can understand documenting for any kind of,
you know, post litigation issues. But then I also want to remind anybody viewing that we have been showing this because this has been OK`d by you,
Mrs. Brown, and by your family.
So the other issue that -- I want to just read, if I can, the city of Denton`s statement about this issue. They`ve said that given the totality
of the circumstances and the information known to the officer, the officer acted in a manner that best protected the student, other students, and the
staff. In this incident, the officer`s assessment of the situation was that the child was posing a serious threat of injury to himself or others.
And the decision to use restraints was made only when the child posed a serious threat to himself or others. Tom Verni, as a former New York City
police detective, you`re also someone who understands a lot about the school resource officers, especially as it pertains to special instruction
and different kinds of educational environments.
In this specific incident, the city of Denton police department did a full review and cleared the officer, so many questions about that as well.
You`re policing your own. There`s the fear of litigation. I mean the Browns are considering a lawsuit.
TOM VERNI, FORMER DETECTIVE, NYPD: Yeah.
BANFIELD: By the same token, the officer said this child was hitting his own head against the floor, and that the officer was trying to stop him
from doing that.
VERNI: Right, which is not uncommon when you`re dealing with a special needs child, these are really difficult children to police, so to speak, or
get under control, especially if they start to act out. So I feel awful for this -- watching this video, it`s just awful to watch. You know, and
having dealt with children like this, just being out on patrol -- when we`re out on patrol, when we have an emotionally-disturbed person or
emotionally-disturbed child, sometimes we don`t even have all the answers as to what this person is suffering from.
So you know, whether it`s drug-induced, if it`s mental illness, or some other case, this officer already knows that this child is autistic. So he
already has an inside track as to perhaps some of the behavior he`s about to encounter. However, having said that, if the initial reason for this
interaction is that he was there to prevent any potential injury or even an injury to another child by this child swinging this mouse around, which,
you know, someone could receive a serious physical injury from that.
[18:35:17] BANFIELD: Yeah.
VERNI: So I don`t question the motive as to why the engagement took place. There is some question as to whether how much physical force may have been
needed here. The restraints are pretty standard. That`s pretty standard operating procedure across the United States when it comes to police
departments trying to restrain someone. If they don`t have straps, then handcuffs are the general.
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: I think we can all agree though, it is so difficult to watch that video. And I mean without question, Emily Brown, my heart goes out to
you. I don`t know how you managed to get through that. I understand all sides of this story. But no matter what, as parents, it is crushing to see
what happened to your son. I hope you and your family are going to be OK and that the healing process is under way, and hopefully will get traction
as well.
And my thanks to you for being on, I do appreciate it. Michael Holum, thank you as well. Tom and Brian, I`m going you two if you can stick
around with me. The latest on the search for Molly Tibbetts, tonight the pig farmer decided to speak and he`s also decided to take a test. And it`s
the test that a lot of people have been asking why he refused to take, the lie detector test. Does it tell us anything?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: We are tracking the search for Mollie Tibbetts, that 20-year-old college student and camp counselor who vanished while she was dog sitting
for her boyfriend in a town of just 1,500 people. Mollie was last spotted by a local as she went on her evening run, but that Wednesday nearly a
month ago. Police say they have looked into her Fitbit data as well as all of her social media.
They say they`ve searched every property in the region, including talking to people like Wayne Cheney. Wayne Cheney, a local pig farmer who says he
was questioned, though he purportedly refused to take a polygraph test at the time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WAYNE CHENEY, QUESTIONED BY AUTHORITIES: I don`t know who them two guys were. They took me to the fire station Tuesday. (Inaudible) for a couple
hours, they questioned me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What kind of questions?
CHENEY: I don`t even remember what they asked me. It was a waste of time I thought. I don`t know. I am done. I am done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Apparently, Wayne Cheney has had a change of heart from this interview, because tonight, we know he did take that lie detector test.
The question is what have investigators learned from it, if anything? And could any of this help to find Mollie? With me now, Crime and Justice
Producer Michael Christian, former NYPD detective Tom Verni, defense attorney Brian Claypool, and on the phone with me, Rob Tibbetts, Mollie
Tibbetts` father.
Michael Christian, first to you. Wayne Cheney is not a suspect. Wayne Cheney has not been outlined as a person of interest. He has not been
named. He has not been charged. And yet, he`s now he`s apparently agreed to do the lie detector test. What else do we know about that?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, PRODUCER, CRIME AND JUSTICE: We know that according to Wayne Cheney, it happened last Tuesday. He said he went into a police
headquarters in Brooklyn, did it there. He said he was asked if he knew anything about the disappearance of Mollie Tibbetts. He said he said no,
and that he was not told the results of the lie detector test.
BANFIELD: And the Police are being very tight-lipped about this. They`re not releasing anything about it either.
CHRISTIAN: No. They did not acknowledge that it happened or again, that he`s a suspect of any sort.
BANFIELD: And yet, they had a press conference today. Did they release anything?
CHRISTIAN: They basically didn`t. They asked for the public`s help again. They made it very plain that they are continuing to investigate, that they
put a lot of resources into this, but really no specifics.
BANFIELD: Mollie Tibbetts` father and Mollie Tibbetts` boyfriend went to the Iowa State Fair. That is a massive event. There are hundreds of
thousands of people who attend the Iowa State Fair. This was really an opportune time for them to get the word out.
CHRISTIAN: Yeah. They handed out t-shirts. They handed out buttons. They made it very plain that anybody who knows anything, they would love to
have help with this. They are operating under the assumption that somebody knows something, somebody saw something, and that person may have been
attending the Iowa State Fair.
BANFIELD: Rob Tibbetts, if I can go to you now. The -- an incredibly smart, strategic move on your family`s part to go to the Iowa State Fair.
There then the opportunity to get the word out. Did you get a sense from anyone? Did you get any tips? Did it yield anything that`s concrete at
this time?
ROB TIBBETTS, MOLLIE TIBBETTS, FATHER: Well, the family doesn`t get tips. The tips are generated through crime-stoppers and through another tip line
that law enforcement team has set up. They did let us know today at the briefing that they have more than 1,500 tips that they`re processing.
[18:40:07] BANFIELD: I mean that`s a pretty remarkable number. Do you think many of them came from this work you did at the State Fair where
there were so many people attending?
TIBBETTS: I don`t know if there was specifically related to the fair. But I do know that this ongoing effort and the partnership with media, like
yourself, has been very effective in deriving information. The other thing I thought that was interesting about the briefing today was the specificity
that law enforcement placed on what we had previously just outlined as trivial items.
They noted that people who were behaving differently that you work with or have unexplained absences from work or have either a morbid fascination
with this case or an unwillingness to talk about it, all these kind of abhorrent behaviors. They`ve asked people to reconsider and report back to
the authorities.
BANFIELD: I think that`s critical that you know -- it is often said and it`s not taken seriously enough that no detail is too small. And
oftentimes, it`s a devil in the details. And a tiny detail, a microscopic detail can break a case wide open. So I think that`s critical information.
Rob, if I can, I am going to ask you to stay put for a moment.
After the break, I want to ask you about something to that end, because one eyewitness did come forward and say I might have been the person who saw
Mollie last. He says he thinks he saw Mollie out jogging the night that she disappeared. And guess what? Now he`s facing blowback for speaking
out. I am going to ask about that, and also whether his information has helped at all to generate any other tips as well. We`re back in just a
moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:45:00] BANFIELD: We`re still talking about Mollie Tibbetts, the beautiful and bright young college student who has been missing now for
almost a month. She was last spotted on her evening run in a town where she was dog sitting for her boyfriend. Mollie did not show up for work the
next day at the summer camp where she was a counselor, and Mollie has not turned up since.
And though officials say they`ve conducted hundreds of interviews, we`ve only heard about one of them, the local pig farmer who finally agreed to a
lie detector test. The panel is still with me. And Brian Claypool, the lie detector test, there is so much to that and so little as well. It
doesn`t hold up in court, but it is, I guess you could say, a critical tool in the early stages of an investigation.
BRIAN CLAYPOOL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yeah, Ashleigh, let`s say that he does the poly -- or he has taken the polygraph test, as you said. Let`s say it
comes back that he`s deceptive and he`s potentially lied about knowing about Mollie`s whereabouts. That could then be used by the investigators
and detectives to put pressure on him and possibly state things like, look, we have this against you now.
We also know X, Y, and A about you. And look, your fate is sealed. You might as well give us a confession. The best they can do with that,
Ashleigh, is try to use it to get a confession from him if he has done something wrong.
BANFIELD: And there is the critical issue. Again, he is not a suspect named in this case. He has not been charged in this case. It is critical
to stay in that vain. And that leads me to the next question, Rob. Every detail is critical. Everyone should come forward with everything. But
this young man, Devon Reilly, came forward and said I saw her.
I just saw her, what I think, might have been the last time anyone did see her jogging that night. And he`s getting blowback. This must be so
difficult for you to process. And on one hand, you want people to come forward. On the other hand, you don`t want this to become a circus. You
don`t want people to come forward and be skewered for it.
TIBBETTS: Exactly. And as far as I know, and I asked about Mr. Reilly, he`s a terrific guy, a family man with two daughters, and all he did was
corroborate information that more than a dozen people provided, that they saw Mollie jogging on the streets of Brooklyn which she did every night.
BANFIELD: Yeah. It is critical to note that.
TIBBETTS: To receive that kind of blowback is very unfortunate.
BANFIELD: It is unconscionable. And you know we`re going to continue to keep this in the spotlight. My thanks to you, Rob, for taking the time, I
know this is a very difficult time for you. So I appreciate you being with us. Michael Christian, thank you to you as well. Tom Verni and Brian
Claypool, I`m going to ask you to stay with me if you can.
I also just want to let you know that there is a tip line for anyone who knows anything about the disappearance of Mollie. It is 1-800-452-1111.
And there is a brand new website that you can go to. It`s findingMollie.iowa.gov. Again, brand new today, findingMollie.iowa.gov.
[18:49:51] The mug shot, it could really usually ruin someone`s career. Not necessarily launch a career. But we`ve got one more thing, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:00:10] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HLN HOST: One more thing for you tonight. And it sorts of begs the question, who says crime doesn`t pay?
This is Marshela Perkins (ph). And you would never guess this is a mug shot not a glamour shot. She was arrested on drug charges last spring.
The timing for her couldn`t have been better because she just finished doing a beauty tutorial on Facebook, hence the makeup. Now, her mug shot
has gone viral with some makeup companies reaching out to actually hire her.
Sort of reminds us of this guy, the hot felon. Do you remember him, Jeremy Meeks? His modeling career was launched after this mug shot broke the
internet.
So while we would never advise breaking the law to catch a break, sometimes being booked might actually give you some breaks. Good for those two,
anyway. But the numbers don`t add up, folks.
Next hour of CRIME AND JUSTICE starts right now.
OK. Are you ready?
I`m Ashley Banfield. This is the second hour of CRIME & JUSTICE.
Welcome, everyone. We are tracking the latest on tonight`s big stories like roadside arrest where the cops use of force against the perp went
absolutely sideways. And it turned into a full-scale gun fight. And all of it, take a look, caught on dash cam from the moment they try to cuff the
driver they suspected was stoned and to the getaway where that driver leaves them for dead.
Justin is covering this story all day. He actually almost got away with this, Justin.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That is right. The key word almost. We will tell you how he was actually caught and what a jury had to say about his actions.
Plus, just what happen to those two troopers. One of them shot multiple times and brought back from the dead.
BANFIELD: Unbelievable.
Now, all of these people going by wondering what this is. We are going to look into it full scale. You will see it complete, top to bottom.
Also tonight, should a resource officer be kicked out of school for the way he handled an autistic child, pinning the young boy to the ground and
actually handcuffing the child for reportedly disrupting the class and a lot more.
Bernice (INAUDIBLE) is tracking this story.
Bernice, the school officials say this is the right thing to do?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is right, Ashleigh. And mom joins us tonight and does not agree. We have that body cam footage, you see it right there,
that shows the 10-year-old heart-breaking cries. We will let you decide.
BANFIELD: OK. Thank you for that, Bernice. Look forward to it.
Also, we are on the search for Mollie Tibbetts. It is continuing tonight. Michael Christian has been tracking that story for us.
Michael, it has gone on and on. We are almost at a month. Do we know anything new?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don`t, Ashleigh. But there is a local pig farmer, he has been questioned multiple times by authorities and we now know he has
finally agreed to tack a lie detector test.
BANFIELD: Well, that may not seem new but it sure does team like it is progress. I wonder what is said. I`m going to ask and find out a little
bit later on. Find out if it matters.
And also something else plays in here. The Iowa state fair. We`ll talk about that in a moment.
Thank you, Michael Christian.
First though, I`m going to take you to Nazareth, Pennsylvania. And I haven`t been there. It is really beautiful, but not this particular day
because dozens of drivers had to pass by what just look like a simple traffic stop, a traffic stop that would turn into a full-on shootout.
Though the people driving by probably didn`t think a whole lot about it because at first everything seemed normal. Under control in fact. Two
officers pulling over a young man for speeding. And actually they are just about to send him on his way. It is all very polite when they started to
notice signs of drug use. And it is when they bust out the handcuffs that the driver busts out of their grip and things only escalate from there.
Trust me, if you think you have seen every video out there of an unruly arrest, you have not seen how this one goes completely off the rails.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With the state police. Need to let you know we audio and video record our stops. Is everything OK? You were going 87 mile-per-
hour.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The driver, Daniel Cleary, tells the officer he didn`t realize how fast he was going.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just stay in the car here, all right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The troop Orion goes back to his car and writes a ticket.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are going to get a citation for going 87 miles per hour.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It appears it is over. They`re going to drive away but then Cleary gets back out of his car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you OK to drive?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Have you smoked marijuana at all? OK. I know, I have a concern because I seem to repeat myself while we`re here.
There is a -- in there. I just want to make sure you`re OK to drive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The driver refuses to answer questions about when he last smokes marijuana.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have no right to ask.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have. I do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The trooper calls for another unit. When Corporal Seth Kelly arrives they ask Cleary (ph) to do field sobriety test. They then
move to arrest him and things turn violent.
[19:05:02] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop resisting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve got him. Keep the taser on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop resisting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Keep the taser on him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get on the ground.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Behind your back. Behind your back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. All right. (Bleep).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My gun. My gun.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get the (bleep) back.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BANFIELD: And there he goes. That is 22-year-old Daniel Cleary leaving those officers for dead on the side of the road and in fact driving himself
to the hospital where he was treated for multiple gunshots and eventually put in handcuffs for good.
And when I say he left the officers for dead, I actually mean that literally. Because Corporal Seth Kelly was shot in the neck and in the
shoulder and in the thigh. Right at that critical femoral artery. And he managed to apply his own tourniquet to his bleeding leg before he was
rushed to the hospital. But it was at the hospital he was declared technically dead and for ten long minutes. And then he spent 12 long days
in a coma. And when he woke up, he reportedly has no memory of the traffic stop though he does want to go back to work with his partner.
Unbelievable. Want to bring in Solomon Jones, morning host from Praise 107.9 FM, also former Arizona police officer Branden Tatum is with us
tonight, former NYPD detective and law enforcement consultant Tom Verni is here and defense attorney Brian Claypool. What a panel. Wow!
Solomon Jones, I`m going to start with you. Let`s just be really clear. Those officers were in a hail of bullets. I think at my count it was
somewhere around 47 bullets were flying back and forth between the perp and the officers. Is there anything that they did wrong in what you saw on
that video?
SOLOMON JONES, MORNING HOST, PRAISE 107.9 FM: Well, it looked like they -- they didn`t use deadly force immediately. Like we`ve seen in some other
cases. You know, one of the things that was interesting when the Allentown morning call put out the call that they wanted this video, because
initially it wasn`t going to be released, one of the things they talked about was the current environment. And the current environment is one in
which particularly African-Americans and other people of color are more likely to be victims of deadly force by the police than others.
In this particular case, they used a taser first and then they used their fist. They did everything they could other than to shoot him. And so, no,
I won`t say they did anything wrong. They were in a life and death struggle in this particular case. And unfortunately the victim -- the
perpetrator got loose and able to get off some shots and hit those officers.
BANFIELD: So I want to play if I can -- Terrance Houck is the first deputy assistant district attorney who spoke about the video being critical in
this case. Because just think about this for a minute, folks. Just think about what the passing drivers are seeing. They are seeing an African-
American suspect and two white - I assume they are white. They look white, I can`t tell you for sure because I have no information on the race of the
two officers.
But the optics are it looks like two white officers stopping and then tasing and then pummeling over and over again, you know, dozens of fist
pounds to this African-American officer and this is what Terrance Houck, the first deputy district attorney had to say about the entire case. Have
a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:10:18] Terrance Houck, FIRST DEPUTY ASSISTANT DISTRICT ATTORNEY: These police officers are trained professionals and that was proven in this
courtroom.
The video was critical but the behavior of the police on the video with what was most critical.
That video not been here, it would have been the word of one man against the word of the Pennsylvania state police. And in this day and age we know
how stuff like that goes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Brandon Tatum, you have to jump in here because I will tell you, if you know, I can only imagine what was going through the officers` minds
as they were trying to subdue this extraordinarily difficult suspect. I could be the next one to have my video all over the national news, to be
fired, to be branded as having used excessive force. But for the fact we get to see this whole thing play out. I want to get your thoughts on it.
BRANDON TATUM, FORMER ARIZONA POLICE OFFICER: Well, I think this is an example of the danger that police officers face around the country and I
have to applaud these officers for being brave, standing in there and working as hard as they can to stay alive. And I applaud the officer and
the department for the reasonable training that they gave him in effect that he was able to apply a tourniquet to go home to his family.
This is very unfortunate that we see these things. And I`m hoping that we can, you know, rectify the situation by getting people mental health they
need and then also, you know, continuously training officers to combat these situations and be as effective if not more effective than they were.
BANFIELD: Yes. Tom Verni, want to jump in there as well. Because again, you know, but for the fact that these two officers were fired upon and one
of them was, you know, clinically dead for ten minutes. And then there is this guilty conviction of Daniel Cleary, the suspect in this case. And by
the way, he is facing 80 years when he goes to sentencing on August 31st. He is facing 80 years for a laundry list of crimes.
And let me just tell what you he was found guilty of, OK.
Criminal attempted murder of law enforcement officer, two counts.
Assault of law enforcement officer, two counts.
Disarming law enforcement officer, he grabbed at both of their weapons, their service revolver.
Escaped firearms not to be carried without a license. By the way, he ran back to the vehicle and grabbed his own firearm and that is what he was
shooting.
Resisting arrest.
Disarming law enforcement officer and then speeding. Speeding. He actually beat the DUI.
But, Tom Verni, the officers were so badly assaulted in this and that is why -- the tide is the other way around. And this isn`t something whereby
this video is viral and the officers are facing losing their jobs.
TOM VERNI, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: Yes. And because I think someone had mentioned before the climate that we are living in and I think he is saying
that is because a lot of times these cases become blown up in the media and they get media attention and what not, there are a lot of newer officers
after that are afraid to do their job. They are afraid to actually take or use some level of force because now they feel that everything they do is
going to put out into the -- into the public domain for everyone to make a determination as to how they acted based on their training.
And so, that is a big fear that we as instructors would have and have had. And we have had some cases where some officers have been injured or even
killed because of a split-second lack of reaction to an incident.
Here you could see the cars whizzing by, how dangerous the situation is, in of itself during a regular or what we would call. Now, there is no such
thing as a real - as normal car stop. Here you have someone who is violent. He should doing about 800 years because this guys is menace to
society, clearly.
BANFIELD: It so amazing that this suspect took seven different tases and 14 punches. Can we roll the video of the punches? Because both the
officers had to use strike force with their fists after he grabbed at their service weapons, after they had tased him and it was unsuccessful and he
was grabbing at their weapons and they still couldn`t subdue him. They did -- let`s see. The first officer punched five times and the second officer
punched nine times and for the passing motorists, they are seeing is the punching.
So Brian Claypool, it is clear in a lot of the playbooks for officers, it is not disallowed to use that kind of force. It was not disallow to punch
someone. And in particular with the timing of this, he grabbed at both service revolvers and had resisted the tases.
Do you see anything in terms of a viable appeal? Because if you could believe, it the suspect wants to appeal his convictions.
BRAIN CLAYPOOL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. There is no way, Ashleigh. Because I actually have been on the opposite side of the fence on many cases where
I have prosecuted in civil court 1983 federal actions against police officers for excessive force on death cases. And I will tell you, on this
case, this is either what Tom said, because of the climate we are in, or these officers were so properly trained and they used every ounce of
tolerance and patience with this suspect. And I will tell you, Ashleigh, that at the moment that suspect even reached for their -- for these police
officers` firearms, they were authorized at that point to deploy deadly force at that moment and they didn`t. --
[19:15:25] BANFIELD: It doesn`t matter what the deadly force is. You could use your gun, you can use your taser, you can use your fist, you can
use (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely.
BANFIELD: And I want to be really clear to our viewers. This is not always the case. There are plenty of African-American victims who have
been unfairly treated as well. So please don`t think for a moment. And I think it is just important for all of us to try to get inside of the heads
of many of the officers who are trying to do their jobs and don`t want to end up clinically dead for ten minutes and in a coma for days and days.
My great thanks to Solomon Jones and Brandon Tatum. I just love your input into the story.
Tom and Brian, I love yours, too, so I`m going to ask you both to stick around, if you will. I have some pretty outrageous video that I`m going to
bring up after the break.
A 10-year-old autistic boy being put in actual handcuffs not once, not twice, but three times at school. Reportedly sustaining cuts and bruises
by the school resource officer. What could a 10-year-old child have done to warrant such man-handling and you would be interesting to see what the
school says.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:21:11] BANFIELD: Tonight, a teacher in north Georgia is out of a job, and not because of budget cuts, but because he fought with a student.
Tonight, he is breaking his silence and he is describing why he grabbed a 17-year-old by the throat, dragged him onto a cafeteria table and choked
him for nearly a minute when the student wouldn`t clean up his mess. According To Tim Garner, this was self-defense.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn`t say anything up until, you know, he put his hand on me. And when he did that, I reacted because he was right up on me.
I just put him back because I didn`t want to get hit. The next thing, I just wanted to control his hitting hand. He is right hand dominant. And
that`s all it is. I have never seen him throw a bunch with his left hand.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: So all of this happened as a school for students with troubled records. And Garner said he feared that this student had a weapon on him.
But Garner is no longer teacher there because now he has been charged with child cruelty and aggravated assault.
And in the meantime, a school resource officer in Texas is going to be keeping his job. All of this after handling a special needs student who
was reportedly poking and pinching classmates and eventually kicking and spitting on the school cop, not to mention slamming his own head repeatedly
to the ground.
Officer Eric Coulson who was called to that classroom in the hope of calming that student down. But when the 10-year-old autistic student
climbed into a cubby and officer Coulson offered to assist, the child`s parents say he did just the opposite. In fact, they say he abused their
son.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hop out of the cubby. You can bring these with you. And I will hold them. Come on. Hop out. Come on. Do you want help?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. We are back to where we were the other day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: That little boy`s parents say their son is covered with scratches and bruises and suffering emotionally after this experience, but
the school district is backing the officer, saying he made the right call because the student was quote "a detriment to his own safety."
With me now on the phone, investigative reporter Kate Delaney, also Emily Brown, she is the mother of that 10-year-old child. Michael Holum is the
representative for the Brown family and a special education advocate. Tom Verni is with me, former NYPD detective and law enforcement consultant and
defense attorney Brian Claypool remains with us as well.
Kate, I want to begin with you if I can. I outlined some of the things the child was doing before the resource officer showed up. But can you fill in
the picture a little more and tell me everything that was going on before the beginning of this incident?
KATE DELANEY, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER (on the phone): Yes. From what I understand, Ashleigh, what happened here was 10-year-old Thomas Brown
started to act up a little bit. And as we know, he`s autistic. And what I was told and what`s been reported is he started to swing a computer mouse
around and that he was acting out. So typically, what they do in this situation is they take him to a place called a soar room which is what the
school resource officer, Eric Coulson, who you mentioned, did.
But the problem was, and you saw that on the body cam video that you just showed that was horrifying, is that they face planted him. And you
mentioned the scratches and everything that resulted as a result of him being pushed down to the ground. Plus he was handcuffed. And then it was
two hours later from what I understand before the parents were called. And this video now which is coming out this body cam video. This happened back
in April at the Alexander elementary school.
[19:25:42] BANFIELD: So Kate, I couldn`t hear what you called the room that he was taken to. What`s that called?
DELANEY: They called it a soar room. And I checked with a doctor who has just written a book called "Autism Matters." And she told me that one in
59 kids in our lifetime will suffer with autism and it`s something the schools have to deal with and deal with correctly. And the soar room is
kind of a shocker to a lot of people.
BANFIELD: Am I hearing you correctly, a sewer room, as in s-e-w-e-r.
DELANEY: No soar, s-o-a-r.
BANFIELD: A soar room. OK. Well that is certainly a different connotation. Thank you.
I do have a few other description of the child`s behavior. And either way, I want our viewers to know this is a 10-year-old child and typically we
wouldn`t show him or name him. But Emily Brown, his mom and his dad as well, have released this video to us and allowed us to use his name to show
his image because they are very concerned about what happened to their son.
The description that we received about the behavior was that little Thomas was swinging around a computer mouse close to the other kids, poking and
pinching them, shoving their belongings to the floor, tearing up papers on the teacher`s desk. And that when asked, he would not leave the classroom
at which point the resource officer came in, picked him up and carried him into what you call a soar room. S-o-a-r, soar room.
But I want to play this moment for - and I should also mention that this is a body cam that was on the resource officer. So the resource officer is
coming into this situation with a body cam rolling and knowingly so. At some point the body cam is knocked off. It`s turned back on. But at least
you are going to see some of what happened when this child was actually notified. I`m going to show this video to your parents. Have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re going to hurt yourself, Thomas, come on. Stop. Sit back down or we are going to lay back down on our stomach.
You do that again I`m going to lay you back down on your stomach.
You know something?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything you are doing right now is being recorded and I`m going to show the video to your parents.
Lay down.
No. You`re going to spit. No.
Stop.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: No matter, you know, what you think, that is extremely difficult to watch.
Emily Brown, if I can ask you, there had been an incident a week before with little Thomas. I`m not sure, did it involve handcuffs as well as this
most recent incident?
EMILY BROWN, MOTHER OF THOMAS BROWN: It did.
BANFIELD: And do you know why handcuffs were used? Was handcuffs something that was standard operating procedure if a child was thought to
be a danger to himself or others?
BROWN: Not that we have approved. And not that was ever discussed.
BANFIELD: Not that was ever discussed.
And Michael Holum, as her education adviser, and I mean, for those who don`t understand the special needs environment in schools, a lot of parents
have advocates, advisers who can help them navigate the system. And my assumption is that this is the role you have been helping the Brown family
with. And certainly correct me if I`m wrong, but the notion of discussing, what kinds of consequences and behavioral treatments are allowed for
certain students, this was very different for Thomas. And I`m just going to put up on the screen the behavior intervention plan that the Brown
family had agreed to knowing that Thomas is autistic and will have episodes.
So if I can just go through it. At first, a signal of non-verbal disapproval is to be alerted to the child. And then ask the student to
practice an appropriate response. Offer the student the choice of changing the behavior or going to the cooling off area. Teacher initiated cooling
off period, provide redirection toward alternative or appropriate behavior. Limit use of words such as no or stop doing. And then, physical escort.
Mr. Holum, what if none of that works, and what if a child is losing it and does become dangerous to himself or others, is it appropriate then to
physically restrain this child?
MICHAEL HOLUM, BROWN FAMILY REPRESENTATIVE: Well, Ashleigh, under Texas State law, you have to look at a Texas administrative code which governs
the use of restraints. And that statute specifically says that there has to be imminent serious danger to the child himself or others. Again, in
looking at the video, I need someone to articulate to me intelligently that this child was a serious imminent danger. I realize that the police
department`s report from this officer saying that he was pinning a mouse and those things, there`s no evidence of that. If that body cam -- I
believe this is probably the first time that I`m aware of -- and I`ve been doing this over eight years, that I`ve been able to see a live body cam
inside of a special education setting like that because it`s a confidential area.
BANFIELD: You know, and I agree. I would think that it`s also a highly- litigious issue. You know, children of special need -- you know, parents of special needs children have been embroiled in litigation with school
divisions all across the country. And so, I can understand documenting for any kind of, you know, post-litigation issues. But then, I also want to
remind everybody viewing that we have been showing this because this has been OK`d by you, Mrs. Brown, and by your family.
So, the other issue that -- I want to just read, if I can, the City of Denton`s statement about this issue. They`ve said that, "Given the
totality of the circumstances and the information known to the officer, the officer acted in a manner that best protected the student, other students,
and the staff. In this incident, the officer`s assessment of the situation was that the child was posing a serious threat of injury to himself or
others, and the decision to use restraints was made only when the child posed a serious threat to himself or others."
Tom Verni, as a former New York City Police detective, you`re also someone who understands a lot about the school resource officers, especially as it
pertains to special instruction and different kinds of educational environments. In this specific incident, the City of Denton Police
Department did a full review and cleared the officer. So many questions about that as well. You`re policing your own, there`s the fear of
litigation. I mean, the Browns are considering a lawsuit.
TOM VERNI, FORMER NEW YORK CITY POLICE DETECTIVE: Yes.
BANFIELD: By the same token, the officer said this child was hitting his own head against the floor and that the officer was trying to stop him from
doing that.
VERNI: Right. Which is not uncommon when you`re dealing with a special needs child. You know, these are really difficult children to police, so
to speak, or get under control, especially if they -- if they start to act out. So, I feel awful for this -- you know, watching this video, it`s just
awful to watch. You know, and having dealt with children like these, just being out on patrol -- you know, when we`re out on patrol, we have to do --
when we have an emotionally disturbed person or emotionally disturbed child, sometimes we don`t even have all the answers as to what, you know,
what this person is suffering from, so you know, whether it`s drug-induced, if it`s his mental illness, or some other case. This officer already knows
that this child is an autistic. So, he already has an inside track as to perhaps some of the behavior he`s about to encounter.
However, having said that, if the initial reason for this interaction is that he was there to prevent any potential injury or even an injury to
another child by this child swinging this mouse around, which (INAUDIBLE) someone could receive a serious physical injury from that, so I don`t
question the motive as to why the engagement took place. There is some question as to whether how much physical force may have been needed here,
the restraints are pretty standard. That`s pretty standard operating procedure across the United States when it comes to police departments
trying to restrain someone. If they don`t have straps, then handcuffs are the first general line of --
BANFIELD: I think we can all agree. I think we can all agree, though, it is so difficult to watch that video. And I mean, without question, Emily
Brown, my heart goes out to you. I don`t know how you managed to get through that. I understand all sides of this story, but no matter what, as
parents it`s crushing to see what happened to your son. And I hope you and your family are going to be OK, and that the healing process is underway
and hopefully will get traction as well. And my thanks to you for being on. Michael Holum, thank you as well. Tom and Brian, I`m going to ask you
to -- if you can stick around with me.
[19:34:58] The latest on the search for Mollie Tibbetts. Tonight, the pig farmer has decided to speak and he`s also decided to take a test. And it`s
the test that a lot of people have been asking why he refused to take the lie detector test. Does it tell us anything?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:40:22] BANFIELD: We are tracking the search for Mollie Tibbetts, that 20-year-old college student and camp counselor who vanished while she was
dog sitting for her boyfriend in a town of just 1,500 people. Mollie was last spotted by a local as she went on her evening run, but that was nearly
a month ago. Police say they have looked into her Fitbit data as well as all of her social media. They say they`ve searched every property in the
region talking to people like Wayne Cheney. Wayne Cheney, a local pig farmer who said he was questioned though he reportedly refused to take a
polygraph test at the time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WAYNE CHENEY, QUESTIONED BY AUTHORITIES: I don`t know who them two guys were, but they took me to the fire station on Tuesday.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
CHENEY: And they asked -- questioned me a couple -- for a couple of hours, they questioned me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What kind of questions?
CHENEY: I don`t even remember what they asked me. It was a waste of time, I thought. I don`t know. I`m done. I`m done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Apparently, Wayne Cheney has had a change of heart from this interview because tonight, we know he did take that lie detector test. The
question is what have investigators learned from it, if anything? And could any of this help to find Mollie?
With me now, CRIME & JUSTICE Producer Michael Christian, former NYPD detective Tom Verni, defense attorney Brian Claypool, and on the phone with
me, Rob Tibbetts, Mollie Tibbetts` father. Michael Christian, first to you, Wayne Cheney is not a suspect, Wayne Cheney has not been outlined as a
person of interest, he has not been named, he has not been charged, and yet, he`s now apparently agreed to do the lie detector test. What else do
we know about that?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, HLN CRIME & JUSTICE PRODUCER: We know that according to Wayne Cheney, it happened last Tuesday. He said he went in into a police
headquarters in Brooklyn, did it there. He said he was asked if he knew anything about the disappearance of Mollie Tibbetts. He said he said no,
and he said that he was not told the results of the lie detector test.
BANFIELD: And the police are being very tight-lipped about this, they`re not releasing anything about it either.
CHRISTIAN: No, they did not acknowledge that it happened or again, that he`s a suspect of any sort.
BANFIELD: And yet they had a press conference today. Did they release anything?
CHRISTIAN: They basically didn`t. They asked for the public`s help again, they made it very plain that they are continuing to investigate, that they
put a lot of resources into this, but really no specifics.
BANFIELD: Mollie Tibbetts` father and Mollie Tibbetts` boyfriend went to the Iowa State Fair. That is a massive event. There are hundreds of
thousands of people who attend the Iowa State Fair. This was a really opportune time for them to get the word out.
CHRISTIAN: Yes, they handed out t-shirts, they handed out buttons, they made it very plain that anybody who knows anything, they would love to have
help with this. They are operating under the assumption that somebody knows something, somebody saw something, and that person may have been
attending the Iowa State Fair.
BANFIELD: Rob Tibbetts, if I can go to you now, the -- I mean, an incredibly smart, strategic move on your family`s part to go to the Iowa
State Fair. Other than the opportunity to get the word out, did you get a sense from anyone, did you get any tips, did it yield anything that`s
concrete at this time?
ROB TIBBETTS, MOLLIE TIBBETS` FATHER (via telephone): Well, the family doesn`t get tips. The tips are generated through Crimestoppers and then
through another tip line that the law enforcement team has set up, but they did let us know today at the briefing that they have more than 1500 tips
that they`re processing.
BANFIELD: I mean, that`s a pretty remarkable number. Do you think many of them came from this work that you did at the -- at the state fair where
there were so many people attending?
TIBBETTS: I don`t know if there was specifically related to the fair, but I do know that this ongoing effort and the partnership with media, like
yourself, has been very effective in driving information. The other thing I thought was interesting about the briefing today was the specificity that
law enforcement placed on what we had previously outlined as trivial items. They noted that people who were behaving differently that you work with or
have unexplained absences from work or either morbid fascination with this case or an unwillingness to talk about it, all of these kind of abhorrent
behaviors, they`ve asked people to reconsider and report back to the authorities.
BANFIELD: Bobby, that`s critical. Yes, I think that`s critical that, you know, it`s often said and it`s not taken seriously enough, that no detail
is too small. And oftentimes, it`s the devil in the details. And a tiny detail, a microscopic detail can break a case wide open. So, I think
that`s critical information.
[19:45:11] Rob, if I`m going to -- if I can, I`m going to ask you to stay put for a moment. After the break, I want to ask you about something to
that end, because one eyewitness did come forward and say, I might have been the person who saw Mollie last. He said he thinks he saw Mollie out
jogging the night that she disappeared, and guess what? Now, he`s facing blowback for speaking out. I`m going to ask about that, and also whether
his information has helped at all to generate any other tips as well. We`re back in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:50:37] BANFIELD: We`re still talking about Mollie Tibbetts, the beautiful and bright young college student who`s been missing now for
almost a month. She was last spotted on her evening run in a town where she was dogsitting for her boyfriend. Mollie did not show up for work the
next day at the summer camp where she was a counselor. And Mollie has not turned up since. And though officials say they`ve conducted hundreds of
interviews, we`ve only heard about one of them, the local pig farmer, who finally agreed to a lie detector test.
The panel is still with me, and Brian Claypool, the lie detector test, there`s so much to that and so little to it, as well. It doesn`t hold up
in court but it is, I guess, you could say a critical tool in the early stages of an investigation.
BRIAN CLAYPOOL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Ashleigh, let`s say that he does do the poly, or he has taken the polygraph test, as you said. Let`s say it
come backs -- it comes back that he`s deceptive and he`s potentially lied about knowing about Mollie`s whereabouts. That could then be used by the
investigators and detectives to put pressure on him and possibly say -- state things like, look, we have this against you now. We also know X, Y,
and Z about you, and look, your fate is sealed. You might as well give us a confession. The best they can do with that, Ashleigh, is try to use it
to get a confession from him if he has done something wrong.
BANFIELD: Well -- and there`s the critical issue. Again, he is not a suspect named in this case, he`s not been charged in this case, it`s
critical to stay in that vein. And that leads me to the next question, Rob, every detail is critical, everyone should come forward with
everything. But this young man, Devin Riley, came forward and said I saw her. I just saw her what I think might have been the last time anyone did
see her, jogging that night, and he`s getting blowback. This must be so difficult for you to process. On one hand you want people to come forward,
on the other hand, you don`t want this to become a circus, you don`t want people to come forward and be skewered for it.
TIBBETTS: Exactly. And as far as I know and I asked about Mr. Riley, that he`s just a terrific guy, a family man with two daughters, that all he did
was corroborate information that more than a dozen people provided that they saw Mollie jogging on the streets of Brooklyn, which she did every
night.
BANFIELD: Yes, it`s critical to know.
TIBBETTS: And he received that kind of blowback is very unfortunate.
BANFIELD: It`s unconscionable. And you know, we`re going to continue to keep this in the spotlight. My thanks to you, Rob, for taking the time. I
know this is a very difficult time for you, so I appreciate you being with us. Michael Christian, thank you to you as well. Tom Verni and Brian
Claypool, I`m going to ask you to stay with me if you can. I also just want to let you know that there`s a -- there`s a tip line for anyone who
knows anything about the disappearance of Mollie. It`s 1-800-452-1111, and there`s a brand-new Web site that you can go to, it`s
findingmollie.iowa.gov. Again, brand-new today, findingmollie.iowa.gov.
You know, the mug shot, it can really usually ruin someone`s career. Not necessarily launch a career, but we`ve got "ONE MORE THING," next.
[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: We`ve got "ONE MORE THING" for you tonight, and it sort of begs the question, who says crime doesn`t pay? I want to show you a picture of
Marshala Perkins. Yes, this is a mug shot even though it really looks like a glamor shot. Marshala was arrested on drug charges last spring but it
just so happened her makeup was fabulous because she had just finished a makeup tutorial. A beauty tutorial on Facebook, so her mug shot, well, not
surprisingly has gone viral, even makeup companies have reached out, they want to hire her, and she is really, really pretty. Kind of reminds us of
this guy. Remember this fellow, Jeremy Meeks, also known as the Hot Felon. His modelling career was launched after the mug shot and that beautiful aka
Hot Felon thing broke the internet. So, while we do advise don`t break the law to catch a break, sometimes being booked, you know, sometimes you
actually catch a break. Go figure. Love those pictures, though, can`t deny it.
Thank you back -- thank you for being with us. We`ll be back here tomorrow night at 6:00 Eastern. Stay tuned, though, because "SOMETHING`S KILLING
ME" begins right now.
END
