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CONNECT THE WORLD
Iranian Foreign Minister Says U.S. Has an Addiction to Sanctions; Vatican Publishes Letter on Pennsylvania Sex Abuse; Dozens of Families Separated by War Meet Again; Trump's Attorney Giuliani Says "Truth Isn't Truth"; Jack Dorsey Acknowledges Twitter Has Toxic Content Problem; U.S. Supplied Bomb That Killed 40 Children in Yemen; Many in the U.K. Are Pushing for a Second Referendum on Brexit; Remembering "Grandad Mandela". Aired 11-12p ET
Aired August 20, 2018 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[11:00:00] BECKY ANDERSON, CNN HOST: Hello, and welcome, this is CONNECT THE WORLD. I'm Becky Anderson for you this week in London.
We begin though in Iran tonight with an exclusive interview on a story with wide-ranging implications. The Iranian diplomat who sat down with the U.S.
and other powers and negotiated an end sanctions in 2015 now tells CNN Washington is addicted to sanctions. Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif
expressed dismay that the U.S. has not learned that sanctions will never change Iran. His comments come as the French oil company -- excuse me, as
Total, a French oil company announced it would withdraw from a $2 billion oil exploration project in Iran because it must comply with new U.S.
sanctions. Well, Foreign Minister Zarif spoke exclusively to Nick Payton Walsh who joins us live from Tehran -- Nick.
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Becky, extraordinary to see the man who really is a moderate here in Iran. It took a lot of sort
of political capital to persuade more conservative parts of the government to go along with this kind of intense diplomacy with the West, the United
States, the Obama administration back then, to see him it seems really not to give up on the diplomacy, but not necessarily see an avenue for the
Trump White House in the immediate months ahead.
And very much despite the White House pretty much tearing up the nuclear agreement and looking for a whole new deal. Still look back towards the
European signatories to that deal to perhaps try to persuade Washington to still go along with it at some point in the future. That's what he's
holding out for. This is what he had to say to us.
WALSH: Would you possibly see any merit from President Rouhani, and President Trump have a one-on-one meeting and see what progress that could
MOHAMMAD JAVAD ZARIF, IRANIAN FOREIGH MINISTER: Not when the previous huge progress that we made is simply thrown out.
WALSH: Do you come back to that deal again because they've torn it up. You've got two or six years until you get someone else to talk about that.
ZARIF: It's the litmus test. The litmus test of whether we can trust the United States or not. It was not an easy political decision for the
Iranian government and for me personally and for President Rouhani to sit down with the Secretary of State.
WALSH: You took a bit of a personal hit then, didn't you?
ZARIF: Well, that's what diplomats are for. Part of our salary is to get personal hits. I believe there is a disease in the United States and that
is the addiction to sanctions.
WALSH: If you felt the U.S. was addicted to sanctions though, why would you go ahead with the deal?
ZARIF: That may have been one of the mistakes, but the problem was that we felt that the United States had learned that this is part as honesty is
concerned, sanctions do produce economic hardship but do not produce the political outcomes that they intended them to produce. And I thought that
the Americans had learned that lesson. Unfortunately, I was wrong.
WALSH: So here we go in the opposite direction and you talk about trying to revisit the nuclear deal. But it is quite clear that Donald Trump has
no interest in doing that.
ZARIF: We do not want to revisit that nuclear deal. We want the United States to implement that nuclear deal. Today the closes U.S. allies are
resisting those sanctions. The U.S. is basically arm twisting. It's attempt to put pressure. I don't want to use the term bullying.
WALSH: You don't want to use the term bullying, but that's --
ZARIF: But that's what it demands to. Bullying.
WALSH: Are they succumbing do you think? The European allies are they --
ZARIF: I think everybody looks to it that way.
WALSH: Is November going to hurt? Just for clarity here, you're going to have another wave of U.S. sanctions against the oil industry. Is that
going to take a toll?
ZARIF: The U.S. sanctions have always hurt. What is hurting, though, is people who want to buy medicine? People who want to buy food. The
economic upheaval that you see right now in Iran is because of the measures that needed to be taken to be prepared for those days. So, we are prepared
for the worst-case scenario.
WALSH: Could you ever get a deal with Donald Trump?
[11:05:00] ZARIF: Well, it depends on President Trump. Whether he wants to make us believe that he is a reliable partner. Now, if we spend time
with him and he signs another agreement, how long will it last? Until the end of his administration? Until he departs from the place where he put
his signature on the agreement?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALSH: Now, you can see the complexity for the Washington/Tehran relationship going ahead. The man who was the key advocate of diplomacy
with America, you have to say, conservatives are sort of picking up on how it's failed, saying maybe the signature of Donald Trump isn't necessarily
worth the paper it's written on. He, Donald Trump, has talked about maybe talks at some point, doesn't look very likely now --Becky.
ANDERSON: Nick, Zarif told you that economic sanctions equal economic hardship, but not, he said, the political outcomes they intended -- they
were intended to produce. By which you have to assume he meant pressure for regime change from at least within. You have spent your time in Tehran
speaking to average Iranian's. What are they telling you?
WALSH: It's pretty clear, I think most people that you ask here blame the U.S. for the sanctions. But they've been sustained for some time, as Zarif
pointed. That Iran's people have found sort of ways around that, ways to survive back when the Obama administration, in fact, made them their most
intense. Now there comparatively softer. But there kicking in to an economy which has been damaged, which is blamed. If you look at U.S. view
and the view of the critics of Iranian government, it's been damaged by mismanagement, by corruption. It's reeling here in the drop of the value
of the local currency, a dramatic slide, rising food prices. A general sense I think of economic concerns here and Zarif says, things all occur
because there preparing for worst in November where they can bear that through. But really, the screw is tightening on many different aspects of
Iran here now -- Becky.
ANDERSON: Nick Payton Walsh is in Tehran. Well, the comments from Mr. Zarif come as his country's oil industry takes a hit. French oil giant,
Total, announced just hours ago that it has withdrawn from Iran because it needs to comply with U.S. sanctions. I'm joined now by CNN's John
Defterios. In convenient at best for to Total, of course. How significant is this move by Total? It's not a surprise, we know that.
JOHN DEFTERIOS, CNNMONEY EMERGING MARKETS EDITOR: Right, not a surprise, but it was one of the most choreographed moves into the market because of
the first international oil company to declare and plant a flag into the country and well-choreographed coming out of the market. In fact, it's the
end of May at the St. Petersburg forum on an oil panel that I was chairing, Patrick Pouyanne said, look, there are the political realities
and then there's the business realities. And this is the business framework, if you will, Becky. They get a third of their shareholder base
from the United States. So, they are listed in the United States, that's the reality. Two-thirds of their financing comes from Wall Street. And
they have major assets on U.S. soil, petrochemical plants and the rest.
So, Pouyanne said, look, I talked to Emmanuel Macron, the President, and said, if you can get me the exemptions I stay in, if you can't, the reality
is I have to get out. I know the Iranians were hoping they would have somebody to fill the vacuum right away. The Chinese have been talked about
because CNPC, the big state oil giant of China has many assets in China already. A final deal wasn't announced, but they did, the ministry told
me, have a consortium pull together to invest up to $7 billion on a downstream project. It's just not finalized just yet, but I don't see it
going uninvested, if you will. It was a $2 billion stake into a very big gas project in South Pars in southern Iran.
ANDERSON: Yes, it will be interesting to see what they have going forward. Also, as you rightly point out, difficult for Macron, the French President,
who is still very much in lockstep with the Europeans who didn't want to see the end of this Iranian nuclear deal. Well, the second round of
sanctions targeting the oil and gas industry as I understand it, what's the expected damage?
DEFTERIOS: Well, the ambition by Donald Trump is to take Iranian exports down to zero by November 4.
DEFTERIOS: That's not possible, I don't think. A very good consulting firm, in fact, the CEO being Iran himself, FACTS Global Energy was
suggesting by November we could see their exports to 700,000 barrels a day. Let's just bring up the graphic in give you a sense of where we are today.
Iran is the third largest producer within OPEC itself to 3.8 million barrels a day. They are exports, Becky, this is extraordinary. From the
start of 2016 to the summer 2018 they are up to 2.9 million barrels a day. That includes condensates as well, so downstream products.
[11:10:00] But they were at $1 million barrels a day. Everybody said, it is not possible for him to ramp up. They have. This is creating problems
within OPEC itself. Because Iran is saying, look, just because we get knocked out, our bylaws are very clear. It doesn't mean Saudi Arabia, Iraq
and the other major producers get to fill the void. In fact, the Iranian minister, Minister Zangeneh is going to be going to this joint monetary
committee in Algeria where they're going to hash it out. Saying, we're one of the founding members of OPEC, just because the U.S. has said to knock us
out, doesn't mean everybody else gets to pick up all that excess capacity.
ANDERSON: This is messy. But if we see it drop down to 700 million barrels a day, that's a quarter of where they are at the moment.
DEFTERIOS: Well, it boils down to the big three. It's China, India, South Korea. China is probably not going to rush out of the market. The Indian
minister told me we are likely to stay in. South Korea has sanctions from the United States.
ANDERSON: These are the purchases.
DEFTERIOS: These are the purchases of that crude. So, you can see a combination if President Trump calls the Prime Minister of India and says
I'd like you to knock off the sales, I would imagine the pressure would be heavy.
ANDERSON: John Defterios in the house. John, thank you.
ANDERSON: Pope Francis is finally breaking his silence over a horrific case of sex abuse by Catholic priests. Last week a grand jury report
revealed more than a thousand children have been sexually abused by 300 priests in the U.S. state of Pennsylvania. We did a lot on that on this
show. Now, in a letter released by the Vatican, the Pontiff admits the church, and I quote, abandoned the little ones. Barbie Nadeau joining me
now from Rome. The Pope addressing the details of this report decades of abuse. But what is the church actually going to do about it?
BARBIE NADEAU, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's a good question. And that's the question that the victim's group, especially want answers.
These words are strong. They're very meaningful I think for a lot of Catholic people that want to see the church take the responsibility. They
talk about accountability, but there's no plan laid out about how they will stop this from going forward. The Pope specifically mentions trying to
create a culture that will stop the abuse (INAUDIBLE) --
ANDERSON: OK. You can see that we are having technical problems. Let me get you up to speed on the other stories on our radar. We'll see if we can
get Barbie back.
Indian authorities say 100,000 people have been forced from their homes by floods in the southern state of Carola. Death toll since monsoon season
started in May is approaching 400. Some 22,000 people were rescued from flooded areas on Sunday.
The British woman who fell off a cruise ship and spent ten hours treading water has been rescued. Kay Longstaff was pulled out of the Adriatic Sea
by the Croatian Coast Guard. She says being a yoga enthusiast helped her survive, and she sang songs in her head to avoid thinking about the cold,
Well, after eight years and some $330 billion in loans, Greece has finally emerged from its third and final bailout. But officials warn the country
still has a, quote, long way to go. Greece had to impose stinging austerity measures to secure those loans. A quarter of its GDP has
evaporated since the financial crisis began a decade ago.
Well, CNN has obtained video that shows the moment a bridge collapsed in Italy last week. At the top of the screen, cars passed by and then seconds
later the bridge crumbles. 43 people died when that bridge giving out in Genoa. The company responsible for the motorway says the Italian
government has given it 15 days to defend itself.
After nearly seven decades apart, a group of South Koreans have crossed into the North to reunite with family members they have not seen since the
Korean War. CNN's Paula Hancocks on what were the tearful reunions.
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Lee Keum- seom hugs her son for the first time in almost 70 years. The last time she saw him, he was 4. The emotions are raw. Lee is 92 and since being
separated from her child in 1950, she never knew for sure if he was still alive. A tragic legacy of the Korean War that tore countless families
Days before making the trip to North Korea, Lee told us she cried for a year when she fled to the South with her baby daughter after becoming
separated from her husband and son in the panic.
LEE KEUM SEOM, SEPARATED FROM HER SON BY KOREAN WAR (translated text): Would it be OK to hug my son? He's over 70 years old now. When I see him,
I'll call his name Sang-chol and hug him.
[11:15:00] HANCOCKS: And that's what she does, not letting go of his hand as he talks to his sister he hasn't seen since she was one. At every table
in this resort in Mount Kumgang, the scene is the same. A rush of emotions as families greet relatives they barely recognize. Relatives they only
recently discovered were still alive.
These reunions only happen when North and South Korea are on good terms. This is the first in three years. Even then, only a fraction of the 57,000
families in the South who applied are chosen. And it is bittersweet, a controlled reunion with families meeting for just 11 hours over a three-day
period before returning home knowing that is likely the last time they will see each other. But for now, until Wednesday, Lee can catch up with a son
she barely knows. Seeing photos of her husband who is no longer alive, hearing about a life she should have part of. Paula Hancocks, CNN, Seoul.
ANDERSON: This is CONNECT THE WORLD. I'm Becky Anderson live from London for you this week. Coming up, U.S. President Donald Trump says thugs are
trying to prevent free and fair elections in November, calling them a national disgrace. That's after this.
ANDERSON: You're watching CNN. This is CONNECT THE WORLD. I'm Becky Anderson in London for you. A very warm welcome back. And for those of
you just joining us, you are more than welcome.
A month-long battle has turned into all-out war. Donald Trump's latest tweets are taking his fight against the Russia investigation to a whole new
level. He is now calling special counsel, Robert Mueller, disgraced and discredited, and the investigators, thugs. Saying they are quote, enjoying
ruining people's lives and flat-out accusing them of trying to sway the November election.
Well, the outburst comes after we learn that White House counsel, Don McGahn has cooperated extensively with Mueller's team giving some 30 hours
of interviews. Mr. Trump's personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani tried to explain why the President himself hasn't sat down with Mueller yet. You
have to hear this for yourself to believe it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[11:20:07] RUDY GIULIANI, PERSONAL ATTORNEY FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP: I'm not going to be rushed into having him testify so that he gets trapped into
perjury. And when you tell me that, you know, he should testify because he's going to tell the truth and he shouldn't worry, that's so silly
because it is somebody's version of the truth, not the truth. He didn't have a conversation --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Truth is truth. I don't mean to go ahead --
GIULIANI: No, it it's truth. Truth isn't truth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Truth isn't truth, sad to say. We have had variations on this before, haven't we, from the White House. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLYANNE CONWAY, COUNSELOR TO PRESIDENT TRUMP: You're saying it's a falsehood and they're giving Sean Spicer, our press secretary, gave
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Fake news, alternative facts. Oh, well. Another fake news alternative facts moment in time, believe me. Our senior media
correspondent, Brian Stelter, says this time this is Donald Trump's top accomplishments in office. Quote, destroying the idea of the agreed upon
set of facts.
Brian is joining us now live. This truth is, as most of us understand it, and then the Trump team's version. And when you think back, what, three
years ago, we didn't talk about alternative facts. We didn't talk about fake news. We didn't talk about the fact that truth isn't truth. And yet
here we are midway through 2018 and this is the state of affairs. Does this just get worse -- Brian?
BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: It is a sad state of affairs. I think it will continue to get worse for a while because of the
desperation of the Trump team as they try to figure out a way out of this increasing legal peril. Yes, I think we should be clear, all politicians
bend the truth. The difference with President Trump is that he breaks the truth. All of the independent fact-checkers have been clear about the
incredible and disturbing number of lies they have come from the White House. And that includes from Rudy Giuliani.
You know, I was just looking back at a story I wrote for "The New York Times" eight years ago about Rudy going on TV and mangling the truth. So,
he's been doing this for a while. The difference now is he's doing it on behalf of the President of the United States. And you eat it in an ill-
fated attempt to defend the President. But to your point, I do think we'll continue to see the problems. This continued attempt to distort reality
and help the President that way. It is a sad, sad thing to see.
ANDERSON: This is a man who we know loves the social media platform Twitter. You got an opportunity to talk to the CEO of that organization
recently. I thought it was fascinating to hear what he had to say. Just for our viewers' sake, just give us the sort of the potted version, if you
STELTER: Yes, I don't want to call it an apology tour, but Twitter CEO, Jack Dorsey, is expressing a lot of regrets about how his platform has been
misused. There's so much trolling, there's harassment, there's hate speech and misinformation. He's kind of like a gardener in a garden overrun by
weeds. And to his credit, Dorsey is admitting to some of those problems. Here's what he told me about the toxicity of Twitter.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACK DORSEY, CEO, TWITTER: We do have a lot of focus right now on some of the negative things given the current environment. And I believe it's
important to see those. I believe it's important to see the dark areas of society so that we can acknowledge, and we can address them. And I think
the only way to address them is through conversation. But it is hard, especially when it feels toxic and you want to walk away from it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STELTER: That's his problem on the business perspective. People want to walk away from Twitter when there's so much nastiness on the platform. So
much graffiti on the proverbial walls. He says he's trying to improve the company's reaction when people report harassment or report hate speech. He
says he wants the company to be more transparent in the future. And he says he's willing to re-evaluate everything about the platform.
You know, this is a 12-year-old company all about sharing information with the world, but he says he needs to rethink the follower count. He needs to
rethink the like button. Really, the basic fundamentals of how the site works in order to make sure people are not being incentivized to be
extreme, and to spread hate and to encourage polarization. These are problems that the big tech companies are all wrestling with right now.
They created these really cool websites a decade ago and now their wrestling with the dark side of it.
ANDERSON: Brian, admirable to get the admission from him. But isn't this all just a little too little, too late at this point?
STELTER: You know, I said at one point off camera, don't you just want to kind of burn the house down and start over. And he chuckled, he wouldn't
admit to wanting to do that, but I do think there are some folks in Silicon Valley that look around and say, what did we do? What have we done here?
Is it too little, too late, at this point, to make little tweaks to these services? I see some people just quitting Twitter, quitting Facebook
[11:25:00] Then again, I think a lot of people are addicted to the constant connectivity. We've shared the entire interview, by the way, on our
"RELIABLE SOURCES" podcast. I was struck by how he admitted that he knows people are fearful of big tech companies and he has to try to win back
ANDERSON: Brian Stelter out of New York for you today. Always a pleasure, Brian, thank you.
Just ahead, a CNN exclusive report raising new questions about the war in Yemen after dozens of children were killed by an air strike earlier this
month. Details on that are up next.
ANDERSON: Welcome back. 28 minutes past 4:00 in London. You're watching CONNECT THE WORLD. I'm Becky Anderson. We return to what is some
exclusive reporting here on CNN. On Sunday on this show, we told you the bomb used in an attack that killed dozens of children on a school bus in
Yemen earlier this month was supplied to the Saudi-led coalition by the United States. And sadly, the deadly incident is not the first time an
American-made weapon has inflicted pain on the people of Yemen. My colleague, CNN's Nima Elbagir dug into the details of that strike and
others. We'll be speaking to her about the reaction to her work in a moment. First, though, a portion of what was and is CNN's exclusive
NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This video of shrapnel was filmed in the aftermath of the attack and sent to CNN
by a contact in Saada.
[11:30:02] A cameraman working for CNN subsequently filmed these images for us. Munitions experts tell CNN this was a U.S.-made mark, MK82 bomb
weighing in at half a ton. The first five digits there are the cage number, the commercial and government entity number. This number here
denotes Lockheed Martin, one of the top U.S. defense contractors.
LOCKEED MARTIN COMMERCIAL AD: We're at the forefront of the science that make them real.
ELBAGIR: This particular MK82 is a pave way, a laser-guided precision bomb. It's targeting accuracy -- a particular point of pride for Lockheed
Martin. Part of an arms deal with Saudi Arabia sanctioned and contracted out by the U.S. government.
So why does this matter? Because the devastation inflicted by the MK82 is all too familiar in Yemen. In March 2016, a striker on a market is using
this similarly laser guided 2,000-pound MK84 that killed 97 people. In October 2016, another strike at a funeral home killed 155 people and
wounded hundreds more. Then the bus attack on August 9th where they're still counting the dead.
ANDERSON: That was Nima's reporting there. And before I turn to her, she's with me here in the studio, I want to get over to the Pentagon. That
is where CNN's Barbara Starr is for us today. And Barbara, what is the U.S. Defense Department, the DOD, telling you about this strike?
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, what we do know is that last week, Defense Secretary James Mattis had a three-star general go to
Saudi Arabia and talk to them. Trying to figure out what exactly happened. Why it happened and how to keep it from happening again. We know it is
very well understood that U.S. defense manufacturers are a major supplier to the Saudis. The weapons obviously not sold with the notion of civilians
being killed. They are for Saudi self-defense.
The problem now is, what is really going on here, the Saudi -- the U.S. support for the Saudi war in Yemen has been up and to this point very much
oriented towards trying to keep the Houthis from firing missiles into Saudi Arabia for Saudi Arabia's self-protection. I think the very fair question
to ask now is what kinds of strikes are the Saudis actually carrying out? How much caution they may be putting into understanding where civilians
are? And whether the U.S. support is really succeeding here at keeping civilian strikes from happening -- Becky?
Barbara Starr is at the Pentagon. Barbara, thank you for that. Well that is the view then from the Pentagon. My colleague Nima Elbagir is joining
me now for more on what is her exclusive reporting and the sort of journalism that you have produce and have produced in the past as well.
And of course, congratulations on that. This builds on painstaking forensic work. If we can just sort of walk back on how you put this report
together. Take us back to what we knew about this attack on this bus. When we knew that these kids were involved and then what news has developed
ELBAGIR: Well, we immediately could assume that it would either be a U.S. or a U.K. armament used. Because these are the two main suppliers of
weapons to the coalition. And because we had already had been trying to operate on a back foot, because when the first attack happened, we didn't
have visas to get in. We didn't have anyone there, but what we did have is contacts on the ground. In our producer, Salma Abdelaziz, did an
extraordinary job of just keeping those contacts alive through the lifespan of this entire conflict. So, when it happened, we were already in pretty
And it was the credibility that meant that when in the first moments after the -- in the aftermath, I should say, of the attack, people started
looking around trying to understand how this happened. What hit them. Our contact began filming. And we knew that this was someone we had worked
with in the past, someone we trusted, and it meant that we already had the key piece of information. Which is someone we trusted getting that
shrapnel to us.
Then it became about breaking down the numbers. And this is really when you get to feel all of the great talent that's inside CNN. Because we
worked with Ryan Browne, who works at the Pentagon, and he was able to get us not only the end user responsible agreement, that really breaks down
what the U.S. expects from people that sells these armaments to. He was able to get us export agreements to help us narrow down what kind of weapon
And once we figured out the weapon, then it was much easier to understand the year. And then we understood, OK, this must have been part of the ban
that President Obama put into place. But it was -- it did feel like a jigsaw puzzle at times and bringing in all these separate bits of
understanding from different parts of the network to pull the puzzle together was difficult but incredibly rewarding.
[11:35:02] ANDERSON: This is one of the stories that just sort of reminds us how important it is that we continue to cover a story like Yemen. These
were children, innocent young kids. We know that bombs are built to kill. They kill men, women and children. When they kill children with UNICEF
backpacks on their backs, it is a reminder once again of how important it is that even though it is very difficult to get in on the ground as a
journalist, we must continue to do these stories. Talk to me about your potential access, for example, in Yemen at this point.
ELBAGIR: We are trying very hard. We have a visa applications in. At the moment, we have been told from the Houthi side that we should expect
posted. So, in the next three to four days, to receive a final answer on the application on their side. But of course, the issue with Yemen is that
you need to get approval from both sides. And it's the other side, the coalition side that we've been waiting to hear about for quite some time.
You know, nobody wants to name and shame. But at the same time, in the active conflict, you need to secure access for aid workers and need to
secure access work for journalists. And access for both of those actors in this situation has been incredibly, incredibly sporadic. And neither of us
can do the job that we are supposed to be doing if that access isn't there.
ANDERSON: This map, Nima, was in your reporting. I want to get our viewers to see it once again. The air strike that killed dozens of school
aged kids is not an isolated incident. What needs to change? And any signs that we will see any change?
ELBAGIR: There are some signs. There is a sense that lawmakers are pushing for oversight. Interestingly though, there are signs that the
Secretary of Defense himself, General Mattis, has been pushing for greater oversight. There is now an act that was signed in post horrible attack on
the bus. And that really seems to have woken people up to the horror. But this isn't new. This has been going on for three years. You have been
reporting on it consistently. But people have woken up again because it is children. So now, there are 180 days between now and mid-February in which
Congress needs to hear back about that oversight. But it's not enough. There needs to be greater oversight. It needs to be in the letter of these
ANDERSON: That's one thing. And it's massively important. The other thing is, where is the solution to what is going on? What has claimed
thousands and thousands of lives in Yemen? We know the U.N. envoy has a -- well, there's a resolution 2216, that's a framework, a U.N. resolution, but
it needs to be supported from all sides. We know Martin Griffiths has been talking to all the stake holders. We've been promised, and we've been
putting in requests for interviews on almost daily basis with Martin Griffith at this point. We're not getting the interview that I want at
present. We've been promised a solution. Do you understand where we are with that? I certainly don't at this point.
ELBAGIR: Well, in theory, there are talks on September 6. But the question is, how can you have leverage if you are making money off this? I
think that's the question I keep being asked. And it's a difficult question to answer. If the U.S. and the U.K. are making money off this
conflict, then where is their leverage to get the actors in the conflict to sit at the table? And that's the heart of this issue. And that is why
this is going on for so long. How do you politically leverage someone who is your customer?
ANDERSON: Because Western powers, of course, criticized for just not doing enough to try and get a solution on this. Always a pleasure, thank you.
ELBAGIR: Thank you so much.
ANDERSON: Still to come tonight, the date for Brexit may be decided, but people in the U.K. may not be after all. I asked a former BBC journalists
why he has changed his tune on the country's exit from the EU. That is up next.
[11:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANDERSON: We're coming to you from the U.K. capital today. And here according to one entrepreneur, the public knows Brexit will be a disaster.
And Superdry's cofounder, Julian Dunkerton, is putting his money where his mouth is. He is donating a million pounds to the People's Vote Campaign,
which is demanding a second referendum on Brexit. He claims his company could not have achieved global success in the face of Brexit. So, a
graceful departure or an explosive exit? There are warning signs in the U.K. as a near report from the Institute for Government says, the risk of a
no-deal Brexit scenario is quite high.
Now don't forget October this year is the self-imposed deadline for the U.K. to set its terms for the split. And it is fast approaching. Now this
study suggests the U.K. could very well crash out of the EU without securing a deal. It's citing political deadlock, and a lack of progress in
As Brexit talks push on, some people are rethinking the U.K.'s future. My next guest used to support pulling out of the EU, but now the former BBC
journalist, Gavin Esler, says the facts have changed and his mind has changed with them. In a new piece, "The New European". He writes that .
the sour atmosphere around Brexit will make the U.K. a more divided and poorer place. He joins me now. Some people will say, the facts haven't
changed at all. It is a fact, Gavin, that nobody understood what was going on. And journalists and the media across the board didn't explain. Didn't
do their legwork.
GAVIN ESLER, FORMER BBC BROADCASTER: Well, there's a lot in there, actually. But look, my position was this. I didn't actually agree with
the Brexit leaving because I thought it was going to be a shamble. But I accepted the result. I accepted the result and like many British people,
get on with it. It's over two years and the people who promised us Brexit have shown they are so incompetent as well as some lies and deceit and some
cheating, actually. There was cheating in the vote, and the election commissioner says so. The Brexit bunch are so incompetent they cannot
deliver a Brexit, not because people oppose it, because they don't know what they're doing and don't agree among themselves.
There are different versions even now of Brexit. There's the Theresa May version from the government. We have Nigel Farage who's saying it's a
betrayal. So, they don't know what they're doing. They don't agree with each other about what they're doing. And I've joined the campaign for a
People's Vote because I think the only way to get off this hook and to bring the country back together is for us to have a look at whatever deal
the government says they want. And to vote on it.
ANDERSON: I want to bring up a tweet from the People's Vote, demonstration in London a few months ago. Thousands, Gavin, as you know took to the
street asking the government to give people the final say on whether Brexit goes into effect. In your article, you suggest that the men here -- shown
on that poster that our viewers are seeing -- are the reason Brexit is in your view coming apart. What is it about these four men? You've got Jacob
Rees-Mogg, Michael Gove, you've got Nigel Farage, and you've got a bloke that many of our viewers will recognized by the name of Boris Johnson?
ESLER: When they said leave, I mean two of them left politics one way or the other. Boris Johnson had to leave as Foreign Secretary. Nigel Farage
disappeared and last I saw him he was in a tax haven called Bermuda sending picture postcards on Twitter. So, that wasn't quite what most people
thought leave was about. It was about getting some kind of job done. The other two, Michael Gove, pay him some respect, he is still in the
government and trying to do something.
[11:45:02] Jacob Rees-Mogg, he among other things, runs hedge funds. Two of which are setting up in Dublin. So, in other words, he is saying that
Brexit is going to be great for the British people and the British economy. But actually, you know what, maybe my hedge fund should move elsewhere.
Lord Ashcroft wasn't on that poster, another Brexiteer. Says maybe British people should think about investing in Malta. I'm just suggesting to you
that there's something going on in which the British people do not like increasingly.
ANDERSON: For the sake of clarity, does a people's vote mean something completely different from a new referendum?
ESLER: What it would mean is not revisiting Brexit. What it would mean would be, first of all, the primacy of Parliament. What we would like is
for MP's -- we could call an election within three weeks in this country. We would like the MP's to say we believe in a people's vote. It gets them
off the hook in a way, too, because they are very divided, their parties are divided. But what the question would be, or questions would be, we
should be up to the MP's.
My personal view is they should say this is what the government wants. What do you think of that? This is an alternative view, which is the
Farage view. And should we actually review Article 50? Which is the deadline that is set by this government for getting out. Now, no big
business would ever set a deadline for something like this without knowing what they're going to do. You decide what you're going to do then you set
ANDERSON: Well, you re-tweeted a piece from the "Times" today by a conservative member of Parliament. Who said that not explaining the type
of Brexit planned at the time of the referendum is like a surgeon asking their patient to consent to an amputation in two years' time without either
of them knowing whether this would involve a few toes or their whole leg. The Scottish referendum had a white paper of course. Didn't it? And it
set out the sort of what would happen were Scotland to entirely devolve from the U.K. I'm sort of going backwards here to go forwards. The media,
and you've really blasted the British media for not taking a greater part in trying to either work out what was going on during this sort of Brexit,
the lead up to the Brexit referendum, or hold people to account who weren't telling the British public.
ESLER: Exactly. I mean, we are in the Trump world. And in the Trump world, we are suffering from a serious case of truth decay. Every day we
hear political leaders of various types saying things, which are wrong, not because they're slightly misled, because they're deliberately line. Now
CNN, "New York Times" and others call out Donald Trump when he does it. Perhaps, I think, on a reflection, maybe you should have called him out a
bit earlier during the campaign. I think the British media have to go through a similar process and start thinking, why do we have people on
television and radio who either don't know what they're talking about, are not experts or are actually telling lies. And the lies, I mean, I don't
know how long you've got, but I could go through a few.
ANDERSON: Well, we'll have you back. It's not that long today. But this story has a lot of legs on it. And it will continue to go. I will have
you back, Gavin. I've got to take a break at this point. It's been a pleasure having you on. Like I say, I know you do a lot of work in the
Middle East, this show is normally based and it's important that the Middle East and the entire world understands this story. So, at some point soon,
we'll have you back on. But thank you very much indeed.
ESLER: Thank you, Becky.
ANDERSON: This is CONNECT THE WORLD. Coming up --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZAZI MANDELA, NELSON MANDELA'S GREAT-GRANDDAUGHTER: Whatever color you are, it doesn't matter. Just be who you are, love who you are.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: My conversation with Nelson Mandela's great-grandchildren. That's coming up.
[11:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANDERSON: Ten to 5:00 in London. I'm Becky Anderson. You're watching CONNECT THE WORLD. Welcome back. We are used to seeing the first draft of
history through the headlines. But what about through a children's book? Well, I sat down with the family of anti-apartheid icon, Nelson Mandela.
Who was, of course, the first black president of South Africa as well as the first leader of that country to ever be elected democratically. And
they have written this to ensure that his legacy lives on in these divisive times.
ZINDZI MANDELA, AUTHOR, "GRANDAD MANDELA": The majority of one of his just know him to be the first President of the Democratic South Africa. But
they don't know the price that he had to pay, and especially for young children, it is important to put it into historical context that they
realize how flawed we are as human beings. But also, how possible it is for us to rise to our highest potential, even in spite of in regard to
ANDERSON: Why did you write this fabulous book with your sister and grandma?
ZIWELENE MANDELA, NELSON MANDELA'S GREAT-GRANDSON: It's because we were very curious about Nelson Mandela's life. So, in order of writing a book,
it would be a way to know about him.
ANDERSON: That's amazing. Because you knew the story, but you wanted to be reminded. Is that right?
ZIWELENE MANDELA: Yes.
ANDERSON: Would you like to read something to me?
Why did the government make grandad stay in prison for so long? Asked Ziwelene.
ZAZI MANDELA, NELSON MANDELA'S GREAT-GRANDDAUGHTER: They kept him in prison because they were hoping that the longer he stayed, the more tired
he would become. And he would give up fighting for his people, but he didn't.
ANDERSON: But he didn't. And you know he didn't. And you must be very proud of him.
ZAZI MANDELA We thank you for uniting the people of our country.
ANDERSON: What do you want kids around the world to take from your father's life? In terms of values.
ZINDZI MANDELA: It's important for us to open our eyes and be a more tolerant people. For us to be able to identify our commonalities above our
differences. I think that is so important. Because I see a world now that has just seemed to be that divisive as opposed to us, you know, growing
ourselves in terms of humanity.
ANDERSON: Because we are living in what feels like a very fractured world at present. The U.K. leaving the EU, Donald Trump starting trade wars,
trying to build walls. And European countries closing themselves off as it were from refugees. What do you think your father would say about the
state of the world at present?
ZINDZI MANDELA: He would encourage us to be able to not just listen but to hear what it is that people are saying. There's a tendency for people when
you operate from a position of fear not to be able to quite hear and for you to analyze them out of context. I think it's important that we create
more spaces for constructive discussion and for positive thinking.
ANDERSON: Your mom died earlier this year. She was dubbed the mother of the nation. You talk about her here, you talk about your grandmother,
Winnie Mandela, in this book. You spent a lot of time with her, very little time as a youngster with your dad.
ZINDZI MANDELA: Had it not been for my mother, people would have easily forgotten about my father. And that's the truth of it. And I think she
suffers in terms of being just (INAUDIBLE) because she's a woman, and a strong woman at that.
ANDERSON: And a controversial one at that.
ZINDZI MANDELA: My mother taught me to appreciate the strength of a woman and for me to recognize from within myself.
ANDERSON: What do you want all the people who are watching this interview today to know about your great granddad?
ZIWELENE MANDELA: That he was a man that never, ever gave up on his people. And also, he's family.
[11:55:00] ZAZI MANDELA Whatever color you are, it doesn't matter, just be who you are, love who you are, and I want them to know that -- be strong,
because we're all the same.
ANDERSON: And your parting shots this evening, we'll take you to where 2.3 million Muslims have gone to seek redemption, forgiveness and closeness to
God. We are talking about the Hajj pilgrimage where worship is wrapped in white ascend Mount Arafat. Every physically and financially capable Muslim
must at least once perform this five-day pilgrimage. Well the white robes embody the spirit of unity and equality shedding racial, national and
classist prejudice. For all those there, safe travels. And for Muslims everywhere even who embark.
And more on that big regional story as this week unfolds, as well as all of the stories that we've brought you throughout the day here on CONNECT THE
WORLD. Do head to the Facebook page. That's Facebook.com/CNNConnect. I'm Becky Anderson. That was CONNECT THE WORLD for you. For the team working
with me this week in London, in Atlanta and of course, those back at base in Abu Dhabi, we thank you for watching. The news continues with "QUEST
EXPRESS" up next. See you here same time tomorrow.