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CONNECT THE WORLD
Pope Francis Is Wrapping Up His First Visit To Ireland, Preaching To An Expected 500,000 Faithful In A Sunday Mass Held In Ireland's Phoenix Park; John Mccain - Senator And Titan Of American Politics Has Died From Brain Cancer At Age 81. Aired: 10-11a ET
Aired August 26, 2018 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BIANCA NOBILO, CORRESPONDENT, CNN: Hello and welcome to a special two-hour edition of "Connect The World." I am Bianca Nobilo in London filling in
for Becky Anderson.
Pope Francis is wrapping up his first visit to Ireland, preaching to an expected 500,000 faithful in a Sunday mass held in Ireland's Phoenix Park.
And while many are wrapped across island, others are angry, protesting and holding vigils for victims of systemic sexual abuse by Catholic priests and
for mothers and babies who died under the supposed care of the Catholic Church.
For more, let's get to our people on the ground now, our Phil Black and CNN's Vatican correspondent Delia Gallagher are in Phoenix Park where the
Pope's Sunday mass is happening. Phil, you are there with Delia. Tell us a bit about the atmosphere and also when we can expect to hear from the
PHIL BLACK, CORRESPONDENT, CNN: Sure, Bianca. Hello. Welcome to a wet, blustery day here in Dublin's Phoenix Park where despite those weather
conditions and despite the very dark shadow of the many sexual assault scandals that hang over the Church and hang over the Pope during this
visit, well, a big crowd has still turned out here today.
Hundreds of thousands of people. And Delia Gallagher, you have been traveling with the Pope through every stage of this journey. And for all
the negativity, if you like, that has surrounded this journey, I'm quite struck as we look out here today by the size of this crowd. The Church,
the Pope - it would be saying too much to say they dared in this country, right?
DELIA GALLAGHER, VATICAN CORRESPONDENT, CNN: Oh, yes, I think certainly, the people that I have spoken to have great faith. They may not have faith
right now in the Church's hierarchy, but they have come out on various occasions. We saw it was a slow start, not something we normally see in a
Catholic country not to have really massive crowds, but considering the history in the recent past of Ireland, understandable that the tones are a
bit more somber this time.
BLACK: I want to deal with this. What could be the biggest Pope headlines today right off the block, and it's not coming out of Dublin, it's not out
of Ireland, it's regarding a claim made by a former senior member of the church, a retired Archbishop who has written a letter in which he says Pope
Francis knew about very specific sexual assault allegations some years ago and did nothing. Talk us through that.
GALLAGHER: Yes, serious allegations in the form of a letter from an Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano who was the Pope's Ambassador to Washington,
DC, both under Benedict and Francis, from 2011 to 2016. Before that, served at the Vatican.
So, a man in a position to know a lot and have a lot of details. He is accusing Pope Francis of knowing about the sexual abuse and harassment of
Cardinal McCarrick against seminarians in 2013. He says he spoke to the Pope about it, and also accuses Cardinal (inaudible) amongst many other
people. It's an 11-page letter, very long, very detailed. Now, we have to say that the Vatican has not yet commented on that.
Of course, it's just a few hours, we'll be flying back, the Vatican press corps with the Pope and we will have an opportunity to ask the Pope about
his reaction to that letter. But a lot of details coming out from the Pope's former Ambassador with some very serious charges against Pope
Francis for having known, he says, about the allegations and the harassment and abuse on the part of former Cardinal McCarrick who of course, he has
BLACK: So, potentially damaging, could undermine the Pope's efforts to deal with the sexual assault scandal, but broadly certainly damages credit
at this point?
GALLAGHER: Yes, potentially. Of course, you know, this just came out today, Phil. As I say, it has a lot of detail in it that probably needs to
be really very closely scrutinized, but the main serious allegation is against the Pope. This is an Archbishop, a former Papal Nuncio or the
Papal Ambassador making this claim. So, one has to take it very seriously, but we do have to hear what the Pope's response is.
BLACK: Now, we expect the Pope to come out here shortly and begin celebrating mass with this vast crowd here in Phoenix Park. But earlier
today, he traveled to Knock Shrine, to a place of pilgrimage for many Catholics where it's believed that an apparition of Mary, the Mother of
Christ once appeared along with other saints. He spoke there about the sexual assault scandal again. He touched on it again. Talk me through
what he said and what your take on it was.
GALLAGHER: Well, he did speak about it again, and I thought it was a very poignant place to speak about it, this national shrine symbol of Ireland's
Catholicism. And he spoke about the need for justice in the cases. No real new words out of the Pope. But he also mentioned the mother and
babies and the children that were taken away from their mothers. These were homes that were run by Catholic nuns. And he met yesterday with sex
abuse survivors and two people who were born in those homes and they issued a statement afterwards saying that they explained the situation to the Pope
and they felt he was quite affected by it.
And so, he added that in today at the Knock Shrine, a special prayer for the healing, that has also been in addition to the sexual abuse scandals in
Ireland, a very big part of the suffering that's been going on in this country. It's so important that he acknowledged it and he acknowledged it
in that place.
You know, we have been talking about how people want more action than words, but the Pope's words have also been significant here this weekend.
BLACK: That is a real example, and as you say, when the Pope met with survivors and victims yesterday, can you believe, he altered some of his
remarks today as a direct result of what they've said to him. Now, some of the people who came out of that meeting yesterday, they have talked about
it being very meaningful. They believe it was a frank, forthright conversation. He was direct. He listened to them. They felt understood.
That's a positive thing, right, in terms of the Church's efforts to deal with this.
GALLAGHER: Yes, that's not surprising, like I say, because the Pope has often met with sex abuse survivors and of course a one-on-one meeting with
the Pope naturally leaves them feeling that they have had - they have been heard, which is really what is the first step, but as you know, the
survivors themselves and many other people have been asking for more. So, we are still at that stage of trying to get the more, the action plan or
the transparent process for not only priest abuse, but the bishops who covered up.
BLACK: So, that's one of the criticisms by some of the victims who are demanding action, and we know we have been talking about this for few days
now, that's what they have wanted over and over again. Actions not words. They refer to the Pope's remarks like those he made this morning as a cut
and paste apology, no matter how eloquent, no matter how heartfelt, it's not enough. What they want is something that shows the Church is taking
action. Was it unrealistic of them to hope and expect that he would make some sort of announcement while he was here in Ireland?
GALLAGHER: Not necessarily. The Pope can do whatever he wants. We have seen Francis be a Pope of surprises and pull things out of his hat that
nobody expects. On the other hand, at the Vatican, even before this trip, they have reiterated that they have those steps in place. The problem is
that it's not very clear how that process works, especially with regards to bishops' accountable and indeed, if bishops have been brought to - be held
accountable for cover up and who is conducting those investigations? So we just see the Pennsylvania grand jury report, but that's an investigation by
a civil authority. And how is it going to work in terms of investigations? Is the Church going to conduct their own? How are these bishops going to
be called to account?
So there are still a number of questions that require a lot of transparency from the Vatican and that's not something they are necessarily very good
at. So, I think the message coming out of this from the people has been heard that there is more still to be done. It's not enough to say we have
got it all in place.
BLACK: Transparency is key when you talk to those victims and one of the reports that we've heard that came out of that meeting with him yesterday
is that he was pushed on this idea of setting up a tribunal to put bishops on trial effectively when they are found to not have done enough to deal
with sexual abuse allegations. And he said, I'm not going there at the moment. That's not the plan. We've got things in place.
GALLAGHER: Well, what technically happened is they said, look, we already have the system in place. What happens with the trial is the Vatican has
their own tribunal and it can go to an actual trial, but the Pope has said, we have a place to do it administratively, also without a trial where they
still have a chance for defense.
So, technically, they have the mechanism to do it. As I say, it's just a question of I think making that very clear to people, how does that
BLACK: Sure. So as we are speaking now, Delia, the Pope has come out to the altar beneath the Papal cross before this large crowd. He was greeted
with a ripple of applause across these hundreds of thousands of people. The mass is now getting under way. In a relatively short period of time,
we are going to hear his homily, his sermon. In many ways, it will be his final message to the people of Ireland at the end of this visit.
GALLAGHER: Yes, he still has two more things to do after this mass before we leave later tonight. And one of the very important things that he will
be doing is speaking to the bishops of Ireland. So he still has another talk after he speaks now at the mass.
BLACK: But I believe that's behind closed doors. correct?
GALLAGHER: No. We will know the ...
BLACK: The content? What he says to the bishops?
GALLAGHER: Yes, we will know the remarks to the bishops and that will clearly be important given all of this interest and importance of the sex
abuse scandal. Now, this is a mass, so I would expect at a mass, you know, his theme will go back to family and he certainly have been using some of
the typical Pope Francis remarks about families and mother-in-laws and don't go to bed angry. We have heard a lot of that.
BLACK: You've heard that from him before?
GALLAGHER: Oh sure, those are his classic ones. He loves ...
BLACK: He loves the mother-in-law jokes, is that right?
GALLAGHER: ... to talk about that. He loves the mother-in-law jokes and the plates flying. But moreover, he loves families, because remember, this
is a pastor from the streets of Buenos Aires who spends time with real families. So, that's when he is at his best, when he can start talking to
people, to kids. He spent a lot of time talking about the elderly and the importance of passing on the wisdom from the elderly to the young people.
BLACK: I can hear the Pope opening proceedings right now. You're right, Delia, he has been commenting on families most of all. It's been the
overarching theme of this entire trip. His purpose for being here really.
GALLAGHER: That's right.
BLACK: His critics might say - actually, let's just listen in here.
GALLAGHER: This is the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin. He is giving a greeting to the Pope, obviously referring to the trip (inaudible)
BLACK: So as the Archbishop of Dublin sets the scene really, he talks about the difficult history of the Church in this country, speaking
directly to the Pope there, this mass is now about to get under way. Bianca to London, back to you.
NOBILO: Delia on the ground there in Dublin, as we wait for the Pope to deliver his homily. While we're waiting for that, let's go to our guest.
We have Mark Healy joining us. He is a survivor and a member of the group Ending Clergy Abuse, and he joins us now via Skype from Dublin. Mark,
thank you very much for joining us today.
A refrain that we have been hearing often through the coverage of this Pope visit to Ireland is the fact that it's action that's needed and not words.
In your opinion, do you think that the Papacy is going far enough to redress these grievances and the terrible toll that survivors have had to
live through all of these years?
MARK VINCENT HEALY, MEMBER, ENDING CLERGY ABUSE: Absolutely not. In fact, the Pope will only take action where he is forced to. We have seen that
with regard to setting up a policy advisory panel. Then we have the removal of one of the survivors after only about a year. Then we have the
other one resigning because of the failure of the Pope to implement what he had promised with regard to setting up a court to hold bishops to account.
We have now got an issue happening down in Chile where he had started this year, after three years of knowing of the allegation of a bishop there
called Juan Barros and only conducted a thorough investigation following a claim by himself that three of the witnesses down there to their own - and
survivors of their own abuse, it's all lies "todo es calumnia."
In fact, his Papacy may well be decided on those three words and it won't be "todo es calumnia" to the survivors, but indeed, who is telling the
lies? And I would say that the Church is concealing an awful lot and in fact, are the ones who are making most of the difficulty in relieving
survivors by releasing the truth, get the documents out there, please. So we, survivors can actually get to a state in our life of relief and remedy
to the many issues that we have and wish to bring to the Church.
NOBILO: Mark, one of Ireland's most prominent journalists penned an op-ed recently, Fintan O'Toole, and he was arguing that it's too late to reverse
the damage done to the Catholic Church in Ireland. Do you think that's the case?
NOBILO: I quote here, it says, "There is only one sermon that can be truthfully preached in the ruined Irish Church," he says, " ... that
absolute power corrupts absolutely." Do you think that this Pope recognizes that?
HEALY: I look at the symbolism for example of this particular Papal mass and there's the huge amount of looking back to the past and there's a great
tradition of location, (inaudible) that's all gone with this overshadowing of horror, injustice and shame. This is what characterizes the Irish
Church, but not just the Irish Church. This is the Church worldwide.
We know that the cover up and concealment, so much happened not only here in Ireland where there was a high instance of enormous or as the Archbishop
penned it as immense. We were 15 times higher in terms of statistical rates here in Ireland. It was just appalling, appalling the sufferings
Now, the Church is in freefall. There is now an in-fight within the Church calling for the resignation of the Pope. This is a house divided. And we
know, as the adage goes, a house divided will fall, it cannot stand.
NOBILO: As you say, it does seem to be a house divided. So what concrete policies or actions would you like to see be taken now by the Papacy to
take a step towards redressing this - actually, Mark, we are just going to pause this conversation here and go to the Pope who is now speaking,
delivering his homily in Phoenix Park.
POPE FRANCIS (Through a translator): Yesterday, I met with eight survivors who suffered abuse and (inaudible) sexual abuse. I want to call on the
mercy of the Lord and ask forgiveness for them.
We ask forgiveness for the abuses in Ireland, abuses of our conscience and sexual abuse as perpetrated by members with roles of responsibility in the
Church. In a special way, we ask pardon for all the abuses committed in various types of institutions, run by male or female religious and by other
members of the Church. And we ask for forgiveness for those cases of exploitation through manual work that so many young women and men were
subjected to, we ask forgiveness.
We ask forgiveness for the times that as a Church, we did not show the survivors of whatever kind of abuse compassion and the seeking of justice
and truth through concrete actions, we ask for forgiveness.
POPE FRANCIS (Through a translator): We ask forgiveness for some members of the Church's hierarchy that did not take charge of these painful
situations and kept quiet. We ask for forgiveness.
We ask for forgiveness for all those times in which many single mothers were told that to seek their children who had been separated from them and
the same being said to daughters and sons themselves, that this was mortal sin. This is not a mortal sin. We ask for forgiveness.
Lord, sustain and increase this state of shame and give us the strength to work for justice. Amen.
Forgive us our sins and bring us to everlasting life.
NOBILO: You have been listening to Pope Francis deliver his homily to onlookers in Phoenix Park in Dublin, amidst all of the sex abuse
allegations affecting the church at the moment. Let's go straight to our correspondents on the ground, Phil Black and CNN Vatican correspondent
Delia Gallagher, to get their reaction.
To both of you, what was your response to what you just heard the Pope saying?
BLACK: Bianca, that was not expected. That was not something that anyone was given a warning about. And just to clarify, Delia, that was not his
homily. These are remarks that he has made at the very beginning of the process before the mass really started.
GALLAGHER: That's right. That was certainly not in the schedule and I think it was the direct result the Pope said himself of the meeting
yesterday with survivors, and as we were mentioning earlier, also with people born into those mother baby homes which the Pope also mentioned.
They had said in their statement that they were asking the Pope to please mention this at the mass.
You noticed he spoke in Spanish which suggests he wrote it himself. So certainly, that was an effort on the part of the Pope to really drive the
point home at least in terms of asking for forgiveness. He also mentioned forgiveness for the hierarchy of the church that didn't listen and may have
- he didn't use the word cover up but who may have done that. That was a powerful moment from the Pope.
BLACK: To be clear, he was asking forgiveness for the abuse, forgiveness for those who knew about it and didn't do anything. You're right, he
didn't use the words cover up, but that's what he was talking about, which is again one of the great sources of anger in this country, the fact that
it was covered up for so long. And then he did talk very specifically about mothers who had been separated from their children. These unwed
mothers separated from their children, children given up to forced adoption.
And to give a sense of the scale of that issue in this country, it's estimated that some 100,000 children were separated from their mothers in
this way. And some of the victims of that sort of institutional abuse yesterday said to the Pope that mothers had been told it is sinful to want
to be reunited with your children after that and he was responding to what they had asked for.
GALLAGHER: Yes, that is exactly his words, this is not a mortal sin. That was a response to their request, and he got a great applause. So clearly,
that was really something for the Irish people that was important to hear. We can always go back to the fact of words and actions, but I think those
were important words that we just heard from the Pope.
BLACK: Put this in global context because of course, the Pope has been fighting these sorts of fires around the world and dealing with sexual
assault allegations. Have you seen anything like this before?
GALLAGHER; Well, you know, of course even since the time of Pope Benedict, they have had to apologize for sexual abuses. I think it really is very
poignant in Ireland just because of the extent of these abuses and the length of time that the Irish people have been dealing with this. So
certainly, to have the Pope here for two days on numerous occasions repeating, it did signify this is really coming to a crescendo.
It's clear that the Pope has understood it and he is doing his level best to try and address it, at least in words right now.
BLACK: Indeed, Delia, thank you. So right of the top before the mass even really started, Bianca, we have just seen the Pope not just again saying
sorry and offering an apology, but deeply, somewhat forcefully asking for forgiveness for many of the issues that have led so many people in this
country to at least be angry with the Church and the Pope, and in many cases, to turn their back on the Church and the Pope. It's not action,
which is what many people here were asking for, but it was a very strong plea for forgiveness for the crimes of the Church in this country.
NOBILO: Phil Black and Delia Gallagher, thank you for your response to what the Pope has just said in Dublin. I would like to bring in Mark Healy
again. He is a survivor and a member of the group, Ending Clergy Abuse. Thank you for waiting patiently for us, sir. We're going to get into what
actions you would like to be seen taken by the Church. But just first of all, if I could get your response to what the Pope just said, some of which
HEALY: More apologies. Even an apology for a cover up perhaps or at least an inference of cover up when they continued that cover up, when they keep
the records shut, when it takes civil action down Chile of civil authorities to actually access those diocesan files and sequester them for
the purposes of finding out what exactly the hierarchy knew and does know.
This is the same worldwide. We need to get civil authorities involved in obtaining access directly to those files which will no longer be held by
the hierarchy. They must be revealed. It's an insult to survivors to turn around and apologize for cover up or what they have failed to do as a
hierarchy when the hierarchy are continuing to cause so much distress by not opening up those records, by not allowing the truth to be told, by not
holding their clergy to account, both those who were the abusing priests and those who concealed or covered it up.
It's painful to hear a Pope apologize most certainly, most sincerely and it is for the faithful to hear, that means a lot to them. But to a survivor,
it doesn't. There's no relief to them. If I was to tell you I walked around with protesters there today, I was approached by a gentleman who is
75 years of age, a survivor, holding his testimony in one hand and the book which was the report into the abuse inflicted on him in Northern Ireland,
and yet there's no government in place up there to implement any form of redress for those survivors in Northern Ireland whilst the government is
Where is the words in what the Pope has just said by way of an apology that can reach out to that gentleman and offer him relief or remedy today?
There's none. It goes on, the sufferings will go on for that gentleman. I don't even have his name. He came and I just approached him.
This is the sort of thing that the failure of the clergy and especially the Pope to get is that he must address the issues of truth. We want a truth
and reconciliation forum. This forum will allow for international investigations, sequestering of all the files and then we get to the
bottom of it. We hear exactly what the extent of not only the commission of crimes are, but also then who concealed and covered it up.
In Ireland, we have a prosecution rate of 6.1% according to our national orders. That 6.1% represents 82 priests only out of a population which was
identified of 1,346. So take your 84 for that and then you are still looking for where and who are these 1,200 abusing priests? Are we safe?
Do we know who they are? We don't know anything about them.
HEALY: ECA has been saying that we need to know the names of these priests. We need to know what was known about them in terms of their
records and we need to then sort of go on to a forum where this can be actually accounted for. So there's a lot of work to do and there's a lot
of actions that needs to be taken. It's very well to hear apologies, and I do understand sincerity in words of those apologies, but there's little
substance to those apologies and especially, it's really insulting to hear, oh, yes, we are sorry for what the hierarchy has done, but the hierarchy is
continuing to conceal, to hide what are those records. We want to see them, please.
NOBILO: Mark, thank you so much. That was incredibly a powerful delineation there of what needs to happen with the civil authorities and
from the Church itself. Very grateful for you coming on the program. Mark Healy, thank you.
Now, we are going to take a quick break and we will be right back with more on the Pope's historic visit to Dublin.
John McCain - senator and titan of American politics has died from brain cancer at age 81. The war hero and conservative maverick will be honored
in Washington this week, his body lying in state at the US capital. McCain died Saturday, surrounded by family; tributes are pouring in from world
leaders and colleagues.
Former US President Barack Obama remembered his political rival saying, "Few of us have been tested the way John once was or required to show the
kind of courage that he did. But all of us can aspire to the courage to put the greater good above our own. At John's best, he showed us what that
means, and for that we are all in his debt."
Those who knew John McCain say he was an avid reader, a jokester and an incredibly hard worker. Even those who were decades younger than the 81-
year-old say he moved so fast that they simply couldn't keep up. Some of John McCain's friends spoke with our chief political correspondent, Dana
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKE BUCHANAN, SPOKESPERSON FOR JOHN MCCAIN: He's like a shark, like he can't stop moving, which keeps him who he is and he is hard to keep up
with. On all of our international travels, he would be the up reading his briefing book while the rest would be passed out sleeping. First one up.
First one off the plane. First one into a meeting. That's just who he is.
DANA BASH, CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, CNN: You are a few years younger than John McCain.
CHRIS COONS, US SENATOR, DELAWARE, DEMOCRAT: Just a couple.
BASH: It's difficult to keep up with him?
COONS: Yes. I have to tell you, honestly, on our most recent trip to Vietnam and Singapore, he keeps a punishing schedule. He starts early. He
goes late. He fills absolutely every day chock full of meetings and conversations. He has boundless energy and a remarkable intellect.
BASH: Tell me about his sense of humor.
TOM DASCHLE, FORMER US SENATOR: There are people who are really great at funny stories. I don't see John as a storytellers much as I am a one liner
and I just ...
BASH: Just quick quip?
DASCHLE: Quick quip, yes exactly.
JOSEPH LIEBERMAN, FORMER US SENATOR: He loves to laugh. He loves humor. A little known fact about John McCain, if you just give him the slightest
provocation, he will go into a series of one liners by the late great comedian Hennie Youngman.
LIEBERMAN: Oh my goodness. Laughing all the way.
BASH: And that connected you guys?
LIEBERMAN: I think that connected us. We both liked to laugh.
BASH: He really does love literature.
LINDSEY GRAHAM, US SENATOR, NORTH CAROLINA, REPUBLICAN: Oh my god. We traveled the globe a hundred times probably, and I think he would jump out
of the plane if he didn't have a book.
BASH: Mostly fiction or non-fiction?
GRAHAM: History. History. He can tell you about every knight templar, and I can tell you about every knight templar because he's told me about
LIEBERMAN: He reads history. You wouldn't be surprised that he reads fiction, too, and he has certain favorite books of fiction like
BASH: "For Whom The Bell Tolls."
LIEBERMAN: There you go. He goes back to that all the time.
BASH: What do his favorite authors tell you about John McCain?
WILLIAM COHEN, FORMER US DEFENSE SECRETARY: That he really believes in the romantic ideal of fighting for one' belief, even if you know you're going
BASH: He is really obsessed with figures larger than life.
JOHN WEAVER, CONSULTANT: Yes.
BASH: Teddy Roosevelt, Robert Jordan, you know, his father.
WEAVER: What's the central thread with all the people you just named? It's either their honor or their struggle with honor. I think that's the
central thread and that's the common thread I see with John every day. It's that constant search for honor.
DASCHLE: He sees these giants of the past as people he himself would like to aspire to, and there is a certain amount of Teddy Roosevelt in John
McCain, somebody who really can invoke an inspiration when you watch him from a distance. And that's what I think he's aspired to be for a long
time and to a certain extent he's achieved it.
COONS: It's the second time I'm going on a trip with him, and I'm a very junior senator at this point and you drive out into Andrews Air Force Base
and there's all these guys standing at attention in front of this great big big airplane that says, "United States of America," I'm in one of the small
seats way in the back. There's Sir John McCain and his great big table with his four senior senators, and he spots me, and he says, "Coons, you
..." And I can't repeat anything, you know, "Get off my plane." And I'm "Yes, sir." "What?" And Lindsey comes over and grabs and arms and says,
"That's how you know he likes you."
LIEBERMAN: He once referred to a guy working for me by an expletive. And I said to the guy working for me, "You've made it. If John is calling you
by a swear word, you are in the inner circle."
COHEN: He has a temper. It's quick, but he doesn't hold grudges that I have seen.
WEAVER: Once we were in New Hampshire, he really lit me up. Hats off, I must not even get near him and at the end of the day, this was the first
thing in the morning, at the end of the day, he walks over with two ice cream cones.
BASH: Peace offering?
WEAVER: Peace offering, and offers me an ice cream cone. We move on. He writes apology notes.
WEAVER: Oh, yes. He doesn't hold grudges. He is a man remarkably who looks forward, not backward.
BASH: Maverick, ideologue, temperamental, there's so many words that have been used to describe John McCain. What would you use?
DASCHLE: I would use committed, faithful. I would use fun, institutionalist. I would use hero.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
NOBILO: McCain's wife, Cindy sent a tweet following the news of her husband's passing saying, "My heart is broken. I'm so lucky to have lived
the adventure of loving this incredible man for 38 years. He passed the way he lived, on his own terms, surrounded by the people he loved in the
place he loved best." You can learn more about the life and legacy of Senator John McCain at cnn.com. Find out why this war hero turned senator
was a politician unlike any other. It's all online for you.
Now, we're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back.
NOBILO: Pope Francis is wrapping up a visit that saw him come face to face with the Catholic Church's legacy of abuse in Ireland. Holding mass after
praying for forgiveness for the crimes of the Church to an estimated 500,000 faithful in the Sunday mass held in Ireland's Phoenix Park.
Many Irish people had a different message, protesting and holding vigils for victims of systemic abuse by Catholic priests and nuns. Let's catch up
with Phil Black and Delia Gallagher who are in Phoenix Park where the Pope's Sunday mass is happening. Phil, what has the reaction been with the
people around you to what we've heard from the Pope so far as we anticipate his homily any minute now?
BLACK: Bianca, as we speak right now, it seems that Pope Francis is getting under way with his homily, his sermon, if you like, to this big
crowd here in Phoenix Park. We don't expect that he is going to talk about that one issue that has defined his trip so much - that is the sexual abuse
scandals that have plagued the Church in this country for so many decades because he has in an extraordinary and unexpected move already addressed
this issue right off the very top of the proceedings here today.
To talk about that, I want to bring in Patsy McGarry, who is the religious affairs correspondent at "The Irish Times," someone who has covered this
issue for a great deal of time and knows - there's a strength of feeling in this country, right?
PATSY MCGARRY: RELIGIOUS AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT, THE IRISH TIMES: Yes. I've been covering it for 21 years, almost as long as (inaudible) began in
1993 with Father Brendan Smyth, the notorious abuser who abused children all over Ireland and the United States and Scotland, it's estimated that he
abused possibly 120 children.
BLACK: With that concept and in that history, given the Pope's very strong plea for fulsome plea for forgiveness, which is what he opened up with here
today, he pled for forgiveness for the abuse, for those who knew and didn't do anything, what he's talking about there is the cover up, and he also
mentioned very specifically mothers who had been separated from their children. These are unwed mothers who gave birth and were forced to give
up their children for adoption. Talk me through - what was your take on that? How significant was that?
MCGARRY: Well, that last point you've mentioned there about pointing out to women whose children had been taken from them in adoption homes, that it
wasn't a mortal sin to pursue that child, which is what they were told. And two survivors of the (inaudible), Pope Francis last night explained
this to them, that they were - their mothers were told that if they went looking for them, it was a mortal sin.
And they asked him to clear up this matter and he promised that he would do that today at the end of his sermon, he is giving now but clearly, he
shifted the timing of that. I mean, he speaks very passionately on this subject. He did it earlier this week in his letter to the Catholics of
Ireland before he came here.
Well, it has to be said the significant difference between what he is saying and what Pope Benedict said in the (inaudible) Catholic in 2010 is
the language. He is proposing nothing different. He is not proposing any of the structures demanded at this stage by survivors for accountability
MCGARRY: ... where bishops and religious leaders are concerned at Vatican level. He himself supported his proposals back in 2014 when they were
moved by the new commission for the protection of (inaudible) that he set up. And it was shot down by the congregation (inaudible) faith.
He made another attempt in 2015 to do something similar, but was told, well, we have the congregation for clergy, we have the congregation for
bishops, we have the regulations. They are there already may mean completely of cannon law, but nothing has happened. It was told that after
the grand jury report last week in Pennsylvania and the degree of publicity here about abuse et cetera that there might be a possibility he would make
such proposals here. Our president addressed this matter yesterday and said he should.
Our Prime Minister addressed the same matter yesterday in his speech and said he should. He hasn't. That would be very disappointing for abuse
victims and for their families and for the wider population in Ireland and the Catholic world. Leadership must be held to account at Vatican level.
BLACK: And what you are describing there very well, is that strength of feeling that exists not just among victims but their families and indeed
the entire country. One of the things that we have been trying to convey through our reporting here over the last few days is the sense that this
abuse, this cruelty at the hands of the Church and institutions, of priests and so forth, it's not just about the victims, is it? It's about
the fact that the pain has rippled out and affected Irish society broadly, the entire country.
MCGARRY: We have had four state reports into the abuse of children in residential institutions for children, in children abused in parishes
around this countryside. We have an ongoing commission of inquiry into children who were had in the mother and baby homes we just talked about.
We had an interdepartmental inquiry into the (inaudible) that's six inquiries.
This issue has beset our public life and properly so for the last 20 to 25 years. And to just give you an indication of the figures. The people that
got redressed from the state for their abuse in institutions run by the religious congregations numbers over 15,000 that we have paid out - our
taxpayers $1.4 billion in compensation to those people, which nobody begrudges them. But the congregation - each religious congregation is
responsible for these institutions, they promised when one of the first reports dealing with them specifically came out in 2009 that they would
give over $300 million, of that ,they have given 29%. They are way, way short.
They haven't even fulfilled their own promise, which doesn't really end the context of their position at all.
BLACK: And that is why when victims hear the Pope talk with his very he will eloquent apologies, that he pleas for forgiveness, they talk about
this being cut and paste language. That it's simply not enough. What they're after - what we've heard a lot of is transparency, accountability
and some sort of compulsory reporting mechanism that says priests, when they suspect child abuse, they must make their next phone call, whether it
be the police, the local authority.
MCGARRY: Absolutely. I mean, what a lovely (inaudible). But what he is doing so far is really Pope Benedict, a little larger. There's no huge
difference in what he is saying. He talks about zero tolerance. He should make a management policy in every Catholic country in the world that when
an allegation of child sex abuse comes to a bishop or a priest, it goes to the local police report.
And that is exactly part of the regulation in the United States with the Congress of bishops there is concerned. Our bishops tried it here and they
were shot down by the Vatican. I mean, the (inaudible) and properly so when some of these reports came out, but they never discussed their own
role and frustrating our bishops in properly handling this back then and to be fair to our Church here, they have put in place very strong safeguarding
practices which they review on a regular basis. All 26 diocese, all (inaudible) allegations. They have done one complete report. They have
published the report. They are not pretty, but they do help to make sure people safeguarding at the top of the list as their concern and they are
beginning to work (inaudible) next year.
Every parish in Ireland has two safeguarding people in every diocese. We have a min-army of lay people looking out for the protection of children
and that is how it should be throughout the Catholic world.
BLACK: It is an interesting point, is it because they say that you can take the Irish model and use that as a template and enforce that globally?
MCGARRY: We have learned the hard way, through trial and error and resistance. I think we have a model, a template to offer if the Church is
BLACK: Patsy McGarry, thank you very much. Religious affairs editor for "The Irish Times." Thank you, sir and (inaudible) that was very good.
Bianca, so what we are hearing and I think what you are hearing at your end as well is that for all the apologies and even that very strong fulsome
plea for forgiveness that we heard from the Pope at the start of these proceedings, even taking that into account of the strength of that
language, that still falls a long way short of what the people in this country really want to see, the Pope and the broader Catholic Church impose
around the world. Bianca, for the momoent, back to you.
NOBILO: Thanks, Phil, for bringing us all of that reporting, and your insight. It does seem like the ripple effect from the victims' pain is
indeed spreading widely across Irish society. We are going to take a quick break. We will be back with more as the Pope prays for forgiveness for
abuses in Ireland.
NOBILO: You are watching CNN, and this is "Connect The World." I am Bianca Nobilo and welcome back. Pope Francis is wrapping up a visit that
saw him come face to face with the Catholic Church's legacy of abuse in Ireland.
This hour, holding mass after praying for forgiveness for the crimes of the Church in front of an estimated 500,000 of the faithful in a Sunday mass
held in Ireland's Phoenix Park. Let's listen to some of what he had to say earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPE FRANCIS (Through a translator): None of us can be fail to be moved by the stories of minors who suffered abuse, who were robbed of their
innocence and left scarred by painful memories. This open wound challenges us to be firm and decisive in the pursuit of truth and justice.
I beg the Lord's forgiveness for these sins and for the scandal and betrayal felt by so many others in God's family. I ask our Blessed Mother
to intercede for the healing of the survivors and to confirm every member of our Christian family in the resolve never again to permit these
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOBILO: Many Irish people have been protesting and holding vigils for victims of systemic sexual abuse by Catholic priests as well as the mothers
and babies who died under the supposed care of the Catholic Church. CNN's Vatican correspondent Delia Gallagher with us now from the scene of the
She normally follows the Pope closely from Rome, of course. Now, Delia, I'm curious to get your thoughts on how damaged you think the relationship
is between Ireland and the Church and whether or not today Pope Francis has taken a significant step towards repairing it.
GALLAGHER: Well, Bianca, it's clear from speaking to the people here and even before this trip, frankly, that the damage has been done in terms of
the Irish people's trust in their hierarchy, which is to say in their priests and bishops, because they feel that there has not been enough
You heard it from your guest, Mr. Healy earlier in terms of what is being done to release documents, to understand who knew what when. And I think
that that sentiment is echoed in other places around the world where the Catholic Church has been dealing with abuse.
Now, as to whether the Pope's visit here will change any of that, I think the short and simple answer is no. That's certainly what we have been
hearing from people, that the Pope and the Vatican need to come up with a very transparent plan, if you will, about what they are doing in terms of
allowing people to understand the historical - because a lot of these cases, of course, are also historical, what happened, what were the
GALLAGHER: ... that were passed back and forth, who was moved and why and who knew what was going on and when? And that is an investigation that
requires huge amounts of work and who is going to conduct that investigation? The Vatican did conduct an investigation here. They sent
people here, something similar may happen in the United States. So we will have to wait and see. But that is still to come, Bianca.
NOBILO: Delia Gallagher in Dublin, thank you for your reporting. We have been watching the Pope deliver his mass to a large crowd in Phoenix Park in
Dublin. We have been hearing from our reporters, from journalists, from survivors and the refrain today really seems to be that what is wanted from
the Church is action and not words.
But we will continue to follow this closely for you next hour as well. We are going to take a quick break first and we'll be right back with you with