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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield
Shocking New Twist, Chris Watts, Was He Having Gay Affairs. Aired 6- 8p ET
Aired August 29, 2018 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- alone he could not dispute because those were his shoes and that soil sample was the biggest part of our case.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I understood that he was going to get life without parole I was just like Tod. Thank god. Now finally Michelle has
some justice.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now a jaw-dropping development.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It seemed all very innocent at first.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The seemingly perfect family shattered.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He told me he had children.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He may have been hiding something even bigger.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A man who claims to be Chris Watts` former lover is speaking out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Portrayed that he was single.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Came to her mind that possibly he could be cheating.
SHANANN WATTS, VICTIM, WIFE OF CHRIS WATTS: Weirdo.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But at the same time, she was like, you know, he -- he has no game.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very insecure and kind of dorky guy. He just told me he wasn`t really out or comfortable being out. Told me that if it would
ever come out, he wouldn`t be allowed to see his girls. And the oldest spilled the bones that he was still married. He told me that he was the
victim of emotional and verbal abuse.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An anonymous man claimed he met Watts on a dating app.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was trapped in a marriage and didn`t know any way out because of the kids.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A shocker.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He just told me, he wasn`t really out or comfortable being out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And perhaps this speaks to motive if it`s true.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My first initial reaction was that I fill. I felt nauseous. You never really know what someone is capable of.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HOST, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE: Good evening, everyone, I`m Ashleigh Banfield, and this is "Crime and Justice." In any murder
case, the past holds a lot of clues. In the Watts family murders, clues are in high demand. Any detail that might help make sense of an
unspeakable crime -- a pregnant mom and two little girls murdered and dumped in vats of oil. The doting dad in the family videos sure did not
seem like the kind of guy who would be arrested and charged with a triple murder allegedly after cheating on that wife with someone at work.
But it turn out we`re only just beginning to find out about the secret life that Chris Watts may have been living while at the same time expanding his
own family. Our producer has tracked down a man who claims to be Chris Watts` former gay lover, who he says dated Chris Watts for almost a year.
While he has shared his identity with us, he is asked us not to make it public. While we cannot independently verify everything he says about
Chris, our producers has seen texts messages the two had apparently exchanged.
And if his story is true it may help to explain that other affair that police say they discovered at his work. And it just may reveal why Chris
tried so hard to bury those details in his arrested affidavit.
Joining me now, Steve Helling, senior writer with "People" magazine, he is just back from Colorado where he is been reporting on this story
extensively. And you have a few more bombshells to drop tonight. First and foremost, Steve, your reaction to the interview you sat and listened to
on this very program throughout the hour last night.
STEVE HELLING, SENIOR WRITER, PEOPLE MAGAZINE: You know, I found it really, really interesting because he did seem to know certain details that
were not in the police reports, and were not in all the documents that were out there. Believe me, I`ve read those documents again and again and
again. He was able to explain certain things about the house, he was able to explain certain things about the truck, things that you don`t just know.
So that certainly gave some level of credence that at least he is in the know about certain things. You know, whether or not everything he said is
true, you and I can`t know that. But he certainly knew more than the average person would know about the Watts family.
BANFIELD: So then there are the average people, and then there are the people actually doing the investigation. You have spoken to somebody close
to the investigation. What are you learning from your sources about this revelation?
HELLING: Again, you know, they -- there`s a lot of things that they believe could be -- there could be some truth to what the gentleman was
saying. They also say that, yes, Chris Watts has had relationships outside of his marriage with both men and women. So that would certainly make it a
little bit more plausible what we heard last night.
[18:05:15] BANFIELD: So, let me just be crystal clear. -- with People Magazine over the decades that I`ve known you has been impeccable.
HELLING: Thank you.
BANFIELD: I know you personally. I sat with you for months on in for the Casey Anthony case, we have sit beside each other in the courtroom. I know
your reporting is excellent.
HELLING: Thank you.
BANFIELD: And you have a police source who has now confirmed that Chris Watts had, plural, relationships with men, plural, and women outside of his
marriage.
HELLING: That is the exact, direct quote, yes, Ashleigh. That is true.
BANFIELD: We also know that a detective was apparently meeting with the man whom we interviewed last night, and that meeting was supposed to be
starting now. And so we have yet to find out the outcome of that meeting. We again are trying to independently confirm this. We spoke with the law
enforcement, the district attorney, confirmed to us, that they were aware of our interview last night. In fact, I believe they said we are well
aware of your interview, and that was where they stopped.
They said they wouldn`t comment on the interview, on the voracity of it, whether they are following up on it, whether they are sending their
investigators out. We did receive word from the interview that he -- actually at the top of this program, because a police source -- a police
detective, a woman, female police detective was meeting with him in the way he described it.
Steve, can I just ask you in your estimation, when you spoke with your source, did they get a sense of the interview that they heard last night,
did they believe him?
HELLING: Yes. So what my source told me was that my source was -- that there was a lot of consistencies with the things that they already been
uncovering about Chris Watts and his wife and that nothing that they heard that your interview happened last night, there was nothing inconsistent
with what they know at this point.
So there were no red flags. Nobody was sitting there saying, wait, that is a red flag, that is not true. That is not what the investigator were doing
when they were watching your interview.
BANFIELD: It`s also congruous with the lifestyle that they say they had discovered he`d been leading with other men and other women. Did your
source -- was your source able to let you know whether that redacted warrantless affidavit is referring to a man or a woman at work with whom he
was having an affair?
HELLING: That is one of -- as well, Ashleigh, my source knows the answer to that question, and my source will not tell me the answer to that
question. We`re hoping to at some point get there, but that is not -- that hasn`t been confirmed to me yet.
BANFIELD: I`m just going to ask your professional opinion on something. And I`ll tell you what mine is. You can share it live on the air. I`ve
read a lot of these warrants, OK. I`ve seen a lot of these warrants. Some of them are blacked out to the point where you can almost make no sense of
them. This one is not like that. I`m just going to hold up the actual physical paper so that you can see this blackened out area on the bottom.
When I count the lines that are redacted, there are four of them. Not four complete lines, but essentially there are four, there`s one off the image
on the screen right now. Right below it, there`s -- portion of a line and what`s remarkable, Steve, is that if you look through the court documents
and in sequence, this is the kind of thing that a prosecutor might redacted to protect the innocent party who had no part in any of this and his life
is about -- his or her life is about to be destroyed.
Oftentimes, law enforcement will do that. That is not why this was redacted. One of the first orders of business for Chris Watts and his
attorneys as they`re staring down the possibility of a death penalty for a triple murder was to put forth a motion themselves to redact that
information. Your spidey senses can`t be as far off as mine in knowing that that is not the first thing that is usually on your mind when you are
in that much trouble.
HELLING: No. I think it`s very interesting that the only place where we have a block of blacked out information is around the affair that he was
allegedly having. And you know, it`s interesting -- blocking all that out takes out any sort of pronounce it takes out everything. So, you know, I
can`t tell you whether it`s a man or woman, and we don`t know. But it certainly makes me think when it`s blacked out like that that there`s some
bombshell in those four lines that could be about sexuality or it could be about something else. But if there is something there that is more than
just a name and an address.
[18:10:07] BANFIELD: Well, that is exactly it. As we have looked at these documents before, we see things that are redacted, that are necessary. The
rest of which is not necessary. And typically a name and an address and maybe even a work title might be redacted, but that would constitute all of
about a line, maybe two.
HELLING: Right.
BANFIELD: Not four. So that is where I`m just curious about the information that is attached to this. It also says, in a subsequent
interview, Chris blank, blank, blank, blank, blank, blank, blank, blank asked to speak with his father who was present at the police department.
So perhaps there was a lot of information that was being revealed in that interrogation room that even his father might not have been privy to at the
time, as well.
One other question for you. The -- there`s another big break that you`re revealing in "People" magazine. And that is that your police source was
there during the booking and made some alarming observations of Chris Watts. What did your police source say?
HELLING: I want to be clear about this. This was a different source. I spent a long time there. But yes, a source who was there for the booking
process said that unlike you know, you see everything in the -- process, the fingerprinting, the mugshot, being booked into jail. And a lot of
times people are crying. A lot of times people are upset, they are agitated, they`re angry. And Chris Watts was none of those things. He was
calm, he was very stoic. He was acting like this was just -- he couldn`t be bothered with the whole thing. Which is a very interesting thing
considering that this was just hours before his family, they announced his family`s bodies had been found.
BANFIELD: Well, you know, I`ll tell right now, and I`m not -- we have hundreds of videos at this point in this program, in this case. We`re
watching one where he was -- somewhere around the booking process. But here he is sitting in court, Steve, and when you say stoic or flat affect,
that is what I thought in court because he had to be marched right past the grieving father and brother of Shanann Watts as they wept, as that father
wept in court.
And there`s another stoic look. This is a man who if you believe the police has just literally finished burying his wife and throwing and
submerging his two little pig tailed angels in oil. So, to see the effect of him on that porch and -- again, if you believe the police, he copped to
it. He copped to having done this just hours prior. Right, within a day. And there`s the effect on the porch.
So it really does coincide and -- he displayed in the booking process. This is a guy again, we are three days from the actual death of his
children. Whether he did it or whether his wife did it. Within three days of the death of his children, his affect was nothing.
HELLING: No. And when you think about it, look, you`re a mom, I`m a dad. I tear up at anything bad that happens to my kids. So I can`t imagine just
being so flat and having no emotion so quickly after, you know, what is clearly, a violent death, it just doesn`t make any sense.
BANFIELD: And no matter whose hands was that. Let us just say, notwithstanding whatever story`s true here -- true, your daughters just
died.
HELLING: Exactly.
BANFIELD: And you just watched them disappear into a vat of oil. That has to mean something, unless are you truly not human. It has to mean
something. Steve, I have teared up to stories that I`m not connected to at all.
HELLING: Exactly.
BANFIELD: But when it involves children who are so innocent, who have no defense at all -- it is and I have been wondering have you heard any of the
reporting from the jail? They are fund up so tight as to what he is like in that cell. Is he under suicide -- who just lost their families would
be? Is he despondent, is he asking for a bible, are we getting any of those color details from the cell where he is being held?
HELLING: We are not, and that is very interesting. Because usually by now, we would have heard something. I mean, we have video of Casey Anthony
in jail at one point and we are not getting anything like that. Which shows that -- they`re keeping everything very close to the chest for
whatever reason.
BANFIELD: So, following up on the reporting that you and I have been doing in the last 24 hours, regarding these relationships that your police
source, again, Steve Helling, if you are just joining us, People magazine, senior writer, and one of the better crime journalist that I have ever come
across in the business has a police source who has confirmed that Chris Watts had relationships, plural, outside of his marriage, with both men and
women. That is Steve`s reporting tonight. And I`m sure it is going to be in the magazine if not on people.com already.
[18:15:06] HELLING: Right.
BANFIELD: Did you find anything on the myriad dating sites that are available both gay and straight? There are so many of these dating sites
that he might be had been -- you know, availing himself of. Because our source from last night said he met Chris Watts on meetme.com.
HELLING: You know, it`s always hard because a lot of times the profile picture is not a picture of a face, but of a torso. You know, it is an
alias, that type of thing. But yes, you know, I`ve been spending the day on bumble and tinder and grinder and scruff, and I`ve been all on those
apps, looking to see if I can find anybody who matches his description. So far, no. But there`s thousands and thousands and thousands of profiles to
go through. If he is on one app, there are chance that he is on others. It remains to be seen if we`ll find those profiles or not.
BANFIELD: And a note to both your wife and your human resources department -- tonight as having done this for work product and work alone --
HELLING: I am using my company phone, so, there we go.
BANFIELD: I am here to attest that you have been working extremely hard and really producing some remarkable material. Can you stay with us for
the hour?
HELLING: Sure. Absolutely.
BANFIELD: Because I`ve got a couple of other guests who will join and likely react to your reporting and then I want you to react to some of the
other things we`re going run, as well, as the prosecutors right now obviously -- they`re in an early stage -- against Chris Watts? But don`t
forget, they still have to decide if they`re going to seek the death penalty for this former father. They`re going to rule in and out the leads
pouring in, but how do they vet claims of someone like the alleged lover who has spilled so many beans live on the air, we are going to break it
down next.
[18:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
S. WATTS: I stuck around because he was the one for me.
CHRISTIAN WATTS, HUSBAND OF SHANANN WATTS, SUSPECT: When somebody is not faithful to their partner, the relationship cannot be sustained.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He has been cheating bit at the same time she was like, he has no game.
S. WATTS: I can`t tell you how wonderful he is.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A man claim that he had an affair with Chris Watts.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He messaged me. It seemed all very innocent at first.
S. WATTS: He knew me at my worst and he accepted me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: I get the chills when I see that. I still get chills video of Shanann Watts from mere weeks ago talking about how special that husband
was to her and how she was so in love with him and how he was the best thing that ever happened to her. It wasn`t all an act either. You have to
watch video after video to realize that even in her distraction, she can`t help, but gush about this man. There are three framed pictures of the word
"Dad" in that home, three of them. This wasn`t a fake. And if it was, it`s about the best Oscar-worthy performance I`ve ever seen on a home video
or shall I say dozens of home videos.
Shanann Watts and her two girls had trips that were planned all throughout the summer. And the story was that Chris, that loving, doting husband and
father, could not make all of those trips. Of course because of work. But after the Watts girls were found dead and Chris was arrested for their
murders, that story started sounding less likely, because that is when the police determined he`d been having an affair with a co-worker.
And now a source close to that investigations has told "People" magazine and our Steve Helling, our guest tonight, that indeed Chris Watts was
seeing both men, plural, and women. And we have tracked down a man who claims to be one of Chris` former lovers. We are not naming him, and we
are not showing him. We can`t verify what he says, including that he and Chris got together at least once when Shanann was out of town, but our
producer has seen their supposed text messages between one another.
And we`ve decided to share his side of the story. In case it helps to shed light on who this man was in all of those critical months leading up to the
deaths. Months in which that family seemed full of nothing, but bliss. I want to just remind you that Steve Helling`s reporting has been bombshell
after bombshell this week. "People" magazine is on the newsstands right now with his incredible breaking news and also people.com has his newest
information which is yes indeed, the man in that beautiful wedding picture under the banner "Secrets and Lies" had a few secrets and was telling a lot
of lies. Was, in fact, seeing both men and women according to Steve Helling`s inside source.
[18:25:04] A source close to the investigation telling Steve Helling. Steve, I want you to stay with me if you will. And I also want to bring in
Jon Buehler, if I can. Jon has a unique perspective on this case as only he could. Because he was with the Modesto Police Department as a detective
on the Scott Peterson case. Low and behold, here we have a proven liar again in our midst. A man who`s all too friendly with the camera and lies
with such ease. We`ve seen this with Casey Anthony, we`ve seen it with Andrew Peterson, we had seen it with Scott Peterson, and we had seen it
time after time.
This story takes the cake, because of the nature of the video leading up to it. But I do want you, Jon, to comment on this remarkable interview last
night from this man who claims that he was with him, he was with Chris Watts romantically for ten months. Give me your reaction.
JON BUEHLER, RETIRED MODESTO POLICE DETECTIVE: Well, if this information is true and it seems a little -- may be after hearing about Steve`s
excellent reporting on it, it does start to explain that the incredible difference between the emotions that we would expect of a father grieving
his children and a guy like this, that likely killed them.
It seems like he was probably so far distant from this relationship and being a father, struggling with internal turmoil on where he wants to go,
whether he wants to be with a woman or a man and dealing with all this stuff that -- I think he probably checked out of being a father a long time
before this crime actually occurred which explains why he really is not affected by it, comparing this reaction of course too Shanann`s father and
her brother in the courtroom.
BANFIELD: I want to ask you about something Steve and I were just talking about. I think it stood out to you, as well, Steve, that that remarkable,
big, black mess of ink on the affidavit that we all got. An affidavit that is filled with details, really specific details from the police, and yet
some critical details are missing. Jon, you are an investigator, you`re a detective, you have filled out this warrants, you have written these
warrants, you have probably have helped to redact some of them. Does this stand out as a little more information redacted than needs to be redacted,
if you are just trying to protect the name of some affair at work?
BUEHLER: Not necessarily so much that, but it`s just the fact that the defense came to the court and had the information redacted from the
document. It`s usually that is done by the prosecution. And so it is kind of unusual to see this happen. It suggests that maybe Chris has intense
allegiance and affection for whoever is in there and he wants to protect them. That seems like that would probably make sense. But for us to do it
in in law enforcement, yes we would do that -- but not to that extent. And often times, if we are doing anything like that we just seal the affidavit
so that nobody could see it until the case progressed a little bit further.
BANFIELD: So, I get it. I get it. Even he is facing death -- biggest crisis of his life, the potential of going, you know, to the death chamber
that is what he is facing while he is getting his lawyer to protect his sweetheart. Even that, I`ll give him that, OK, I`ll give him that. Does
it require taking four full lines out of the affidavit? Or does that sound like there`s a lot more information than just name, address, and work
position?
BUEHLER: It does to me. Because like you said it isn`t going to take that much redacting to get that out of there. But just the mere fact that the
defense made that claim, that petition to the court to have it done and they took so much out, if really -- it really, I`m looking for Steve to
cover that tomorrow. I am hoping he can do that.
BANFIELD: Well, if we don`t get to it first. But at this time, I think Steve and I are working in lockstep on some of this just remarkable stuff.
And I dare say that in this case it`s -- they`re once a decade. The Casey Anthony, the Jody Arias, the Scott Petersons, one with so many unbelievable
details in them, and I think we`re only at the tip of the iceberg. Steve, you tell me, is this one of those, do you sense that we don`t know the half
of it?
HELLING: We don`t. And this is one of those cases where I think our jaws are going to drop a lot Ashleigh over the next few weeks and months. As
things come out, more discovery comes out, as this happens, you know, you`ve been there. It seems like every time something new comes up, you`re
like, wow -- I didn`t see that coming. You get blindsided all the time.
BANFIELD: Yes. Sure didn`t see that coming. I did not see this affidavit coming -- you know live on the air I just did not see this twist coming and
there is so much more I want to ask about that.
Kirby Clements as a defense attorney, jump into this conversation with me. You just hear John Buehler say what`s shocking is that it was not the
prosecutors who wanted to protect this sweetheart at work, whomever he or she is, it was Chris Watts and his defense attorney that asked to have
these redaction done, and the prosecutors agreed. So you tell me, have you ever had a defendant who was facing the most serious charge in his or her
life, and the first thought is to protect someone else`s name?
KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, you got to look at all the potentials for that. That is you may actually have a witness or someone
that you`re going to call that you don`t want to have the press or people bombarding that person and tainting them.
So it may not necessarily be a decision to protect a lover because I love this person or persons, it may be a tactical move. So I have made motions
to try to keep things out, not because my client was sitting there dictating it, but because I thought it was going to benefit my client later
on down the line. And that could be a very legitimate reason to redact the name of a person or several people.
BANFIELD: Four lines, Kirby, four whole lines. So not just name and address, that would have been one line. Four full lines. You just see on
your screen three. There was another one in addition to that.
CLEMENTS: That, again, it`s -- that`s a lot of black ink right there. But I can just tell you that depending on what those four lines said, those
four lines could have been very crucial to the defense. And you have to make a decision strategically in a case like this. And sometimes if you got
to redact the whole page, so be it, but you got to do your job.
BANFIELD: Kirby, you understand more than anybody, as a defense attorney, it`s typically the prosecutors who, A, want to make sure that someone in a
high-profile, national headline-making case, isn`t about to have his or her life destroyed by the press on the lawn (ph).
Think about Amber Frey. She had to get Gloria Allred as her attorney in that case because unbeknownst to her, the man that she thought was adorable
was a murderer, was a wife and baby killer.
And so I can understand a prosecutor wanting to protect someone like that. I can also understand a prosecutor and investigator saying, I don`t want
whomever this person is talking to the press, I want a clean record of everything this person is going to say, and I want it first, and I want it
foremost. That all makes sense to me. I have a tougher time with the defense, the defense protecting this much information.
Again, while the charges are so serious, down the road, I get it. But in the moment that you are facing potential of a death penalty story three
times over, I can`t imagine that your first allegiance is to making sure your sweetheart remains anonymous. It`s just a little shocking to me.
I want you all to hold on for a minute, if you will. I have a regular guest on this program, Joseph Scott Morgan, who is a professor of death. I mean,
honest to god, as a certified death investigator, there is no one who knows more about it than Joe.
Joe, when we come back, there`s something that I`ve been wanting to ask you a lot bout. Video after video after video, I have seen something that I
think is going to play a big part in this case, and I feel like you`re the guy who`s going to know about it, because you can tell a lot from a woman`s
manicure.
Shannan Watts clearly loved her bright colors, her bold designs. But it is not the colors that she painted on those nails. It is not the manicure that
she was so careful about. It is not the seasons that she represented or the holidays or the football games that she reflected in those nails.
It is now the forensics under those nails, and the story that they may just tell us about whether the husband of hers whom she loved so much has told
his final lie.
[18:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Two thousand eighteen is my year. I am claiming it. We say I am loved --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am loved.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We love them (ph) so much.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am special.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am special.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He just didn`t seem like the type of guy to injure a fly.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They had the hearts of angels and the souls of angels.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t believe that they`re gone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: As we speak, a stunned community is trying to plan a funeral. Not one, but three. Trying to find a way to honor all three lives, Shannan
Watts, Bella Watts, and Celeste Watts. Without reminding anyone of just how dark their deaths were.
And we know that daddy will not be at that funeral because police say it was daddy, and it was Chris Watts, who`s responsible for killing them.
Though how he might have done it, still remains a mystery. And he certainly has his story.
I want to bring in Joseph Scott Morgan, certified death investigator, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. You saw that
montage going out to break, Joe, of Shannan`s meticulous manicure.
She was so devoted to keeping her nails in perfect shape, changing the color by the holiday or the season or the football game, but never once did
those nails appear as anything but perfect. And in my estimation, that`s got to be a windfall for investigators.
[18:40:00] JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: Yeah, you`re absolutely right, Ashleigh. Let`s reflect back and think about these
two children first. The children were found submerged in petroleum, all right, so I don`t know how much trace evidence we will get there.
However, I will point this out. Shannan was buried. And with this, what we`re looking at in the nail, beneath the nail, at autopsy, one of things
that will happen, they will do what it first referred to as nail scrapings. They will actually scrape beneath the nail to remove any kind of skin
sample that there might be from a foreign entity, OK?
That is in a person who may be attacking her or whatever the case might be. This is not for the purposes of touch DNA. It is going to be longstanding
(ph) DNA. And also they will do nail clippings. They will clip away the nails and save these. This is going to be very import.
One of the things that I`m very, very interested in in regards to this husband is the following. What injuries if any, if any, did the police
observe on his body? I`m talking about around his face, in his beard, remember he`s got this neatly trimmed beard, around his neck, on his
wrists, around his arms, anywhere on his shoulders to fight him off.
You`re talking about a woman who is pregnant, who has two children. She may have just found out that they were dead. She is going to be upset. There is
going to be a fight, in my opinion.
BANFIELD: There would have been some kind of pitched battle. If you`re being strangled, you are fighting for your life. In fact, the video we are
showing right now, a lot of people on Facebook and social media pointed out what they thought were red marks on Chris` neck on the left-hand side of
his neck, on the opposite side where he`s holding the phone.
SCOTT MORGAN: Right.
BANFIELD: In some pictures it definitely looks like there`s a slight red mark. In other pictures it looks like maybe just a blemish. But clearly
police know exactly what to look for and how to delineate between those, correct?
SCOTT MORGAN: Yes, they do. You know, this is -- this is trace evidence that is kind of, if you will, kind of protected because it would be beneath
the level of the nail. We`re finding out a lot of information about the dynamics of the family right now and all this stuff.
But to this point, like you mentioned, the only statement that we really have about the cause and manner of death to this point is what he had
initially, that statement he had initially allegedly made to the police. To this point, the coroner has not said anything, the M.E. has not said
anything. Nothing has been released.
BANFIELD: Nothing. Yeah. That`s what leads me to my next question for you. I think this is a critical piece of evidence that eventually we will learn
when the autopsy is made public. Shannan was on a delayed flight. She was coming home from a work trip on Sunday night but bled (ph) into Monday
morning.
It was around 2:00 in the morning when she got home, and if you and I are any example after a long flight, the last thing we would do is go to sleep
in the clothes we were in, correct? And especially if you`re a woman. You want to clean up, maybe wash your face.
Chris` story, if you believe the police affidavit, is that she went to bed. And then at 5:00 in the morning, they had some kind of emotional argument.
He told her he wanted to split. She went and killed the kids. If she`s found buried in anything other than pajamas, that has got to be a massive
clue, correct?
SCOTT MORGAN: Yeah, it would be. That means that there was a changing of clothing. This sort of thing. This all goes back to what we call in medical
legal death investigation terms as PMI, that is postmortem interval. This is critical in this case. I have always wondered about this case since you
and I first started discussing this, Ash.
How long had the children been deceased? How long had they been down? And what is the interval between the time in which they passed and what time in
which she passed? Is there going to be any difference there?
BANFIELD: Yeah. That will be a big clue, because they have actually said that the window within which we need to assess whether those children were
killed is all the way from Sunday into Monday. They are not saying that it was at the same time that Shannan was killed.
They`re saying you got to leave that window open, perhaps last known contact with them. Shannan arrives home, we know, for a fact, sometime
around 2:00 in the morning. So she definitely died after 2:00 in the morning.
But I`m so fascinated to find out what those children were wearing when they were dumped into the oil tanks and what Shannan might have been
wearing when she was buried in a shallow grave. What it was that was used to lug those bodies out to that site in the back of his truck as is
detailed in the police accusation against him.
All of it is so uncomfortable especially when you see a video in the master bed of these little girls singing "Holly Jolly Christmas" with Chris beside
them. The master bedroom that became the scene of the crime. It`s so disturbing to see this. I just want to listen to it for a moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have a holly jolly Christmas.
[18:45:02] It`s the best time of the year. I don`t know if there is snow.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Eight years later, we have two kids. We live in Colorado.
[18:49:59] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everyone who looked at Shannan and Chris, they just immediately thought it was love.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s the best thing that has ever happened to me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The way that she looked at him and the way that he looked at her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m sickened that a parent could do that to his children and to his wife.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: They went from Facebook friends to mom and dad, to murder victim and murder suspect. Wasn`t all that long ago that Chris and Shannan Watts
seemed deeply in love and excited about expanding their family with a brand-new baby boy. But that little boy will not be coming because in only
a matter of weeks, the Watts family has drastically changed. Shannan and the girls are dead and dad is behind bars accused of triple murder.
And the clues as to what happened are only just starting to surface. The stories of lovers in his past, both male and female, now surfacing. People
magazine with an inside source in the investigation saying both men and women in his past, he was involved with all of them.
And then there is that investigation and the upcoming funeral for Shannan and the girls. Joseph Scott Morgan, as a death investigator, he says that
she strangled those babies. Can you tell forensically if you can get a look at those children`s necks, what the size of the hands were that may have
done it? Is it provable that it was either he or she that did it?
SCOTT MORGAN: I think that would be very difficult. What would be there, though, Ash, is the fact that underneath the layer of skin, there will be
deep tissue hemorrhage in there, focal areas of hemorrhage. So it could be proven that these children and as well as Shannan, had been throttled at
some point in time.
BANFIELD: He was just so exquisite at lying. It`s hard to believe him now when he tells the story, but they have to forensically map this out in a
case against him. There is, you know, a funeral planned for this Saturday. Alongside the same day that John McCain is being laid to rest, Shannan and
the girls will be laid to rest.
They are Catholic. It is often protocol to have an open casket. Do you see it as a possibility given the way that it is believed these -- this mother
and two children died? That they could have open caskets?
SCOTT MORGAN: I think that it might be difficult. I think that they`re going to be probably in a moderate state of decomposition. I think it would
be very difficult, yes.
BANFIELD: And not just necessarily because of the reported strangulation of them. It`s mostly that the state of decomposition after four days,
correct?
SCOTT MORGAN: I think any kind of external trauma on the neck could be covered, but unless their faces were marked up in some way traumatically. I
think that decomposition will be the biggest hurdle to overcome.
BANFIELD: That is just so incredibly sad. All of it. Every aspect of it. Sad but also so enraging when you see the banner on this program, did Chris
Watts have secret gay lovers?
Now, our Steve Helling with this bombshell reporting from People magazine that yes, indeed, the police are confirming to Steve Helling from People
that he had both male and female lovers, that he was more than likely hiding from the woman who could not say more about him in the loving way
that a wife would. All of it just so horrifying.
To good god-fearing family people across America who look at these pictures and say, god, please, don`t let it be true. Being a mother isn`t all about
the big wins, the parental wins. It`s also about the little moments where a child is completely wrapped up in love. And Shannan Watts certainly seemed
to be a master of the moments. Her little daily message to her girls is next.
[18:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: It is a fact of life that we all have dark days and difficult nights. But Shannan Watts never hid from her challenges. She used them,
good and bad, as a way to help others. And she was teaching Bella and Celeste this vital life lesson, creating something called vision boards
that list out the things that we all want to achieve.
For Celeste, it was pretzels. For Bella, it was Disney World with the grandparents. And the dream of being a teacher or a doctor or maybe a
princess. Shannan told her daughters how very special they were every day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do we do every day? We say I am loved.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am loved.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am beautiful.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am beautiful.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am special.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am special.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am healthy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am healthy.
[19:00:01] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am blessed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am blessed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am strong.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am strong.
S. WATTS: I am strong.
B. WATTS: I am strong.
S. WATTS: Yes. I am gifted.
B. WATTS: I am gifted.
S. WATTS: I am smart.
B. WATTS: I am smart.
S. WATTS: I am confident.
B. WATTS: I am confident.
S. WATTS: I am perfect.
B. WATTS: I am perfect.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HLN HOST: The next hour of CRIME AND JUSTICE starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, a jaw-draping development.
BANFIELD (voice-over): An anonymous man who claims he met Watts on a dating app.
How soon after you actually met him in person did your relationship turn romantic?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That time, he just told me he wasn`t really out or comfortable being out. Very insecure and kind of dorky guy.
S. WATTS: Well, come over. You`re sitting right here.
CHRIS WATTS, HUSBAND OF SHANANN WATTS: I`m right here.
S. WATTS: Weirdo.
(LAUGHTER)
BANFIELD (voice-over): During that time, did he ever tell you that he was married or had children?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I knew he had children. She asked him if she could sleep with him -- him and mommy tonight.
BANFIELD (voice-over): This alleged lover said he doesn`t know what to believe now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were just lots of red flags.
C. WATTS: Do I have a desire to keep this relationship going? Do I have a moral obligation to stay in this relationship?
AMANDA THAYER, FRIEND OF THE WATTS FAMILY: It came to her mind that possibly he could be cheating, but at the same time, she was like, you
know, he has no game.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He told me that he was the victim of emotional and verbal abuse, and he was trapped in a loveless marriage. And he didn`t
know any way out because of the kids.
BANFIELD (voice-over): And perhaps this speaks to motive, if, in fact, it`s true.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn`t hear anything until after the bodies were found. You never really know what someone is capable of. He was one of
the most gentle people I have ever met.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Good evening, everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield and welcome to the second hour of CRIME AND JUSTICE.
It has been a vexing mystery from the moment the story broke. A seemingly wholesome Colorado dad whose beautiful family went missing is suddenly
arrested for their murders. After, police say, he led them to the bodies.
But if you thought the story of the Watts murders was gripping, it just got a lot more complicated. And it just turned very dark. Because we have
tracked down a man who claims to be Chris Watts` gay lover.
We cannot confirm everything he says, but our producers have seen text messages that the two apparently exchanged. And if what he says is true,
Chris Watts` pile of lies and deceit has now turned into a virtual mountain.
Joining me is Steve Helling, senior writer with "People" Magazine. He`s just back from a trip to Colorado where he spent extensive time reporting
on this story.
You have some bombshell reporting of your own tonight that is on newsstands now, Steve, but, first, your reaction to this extensive interview you sat
through on this program last night for an hour as this man poured out the details of a gay relationship he secretly had with Chris Watts for 10
months last year.
STEVE HELLING, SENIOR WRITER, PEOPLE: Absolutely. And like you said, we can`t verify everything that he said. We just can`t do that. But what we
can do is we can say, are the things he said, were they consistent with the things that we already know about this case? And he was able to make some
descriptions that were not readily available on police reports and things like that.
On top of it all, you know, what he said is consistent to -- from what I`ve heard from somebody who is close to the investigation who says that, yes,
Chris Watts had had other relationships outside of his marriage, both with men and with women.
So all of that together makes you think, well, maybe there is some truth. Maybe what this gentleman told you yesterday, you know, maybe -- it lends
some credibility to what he had to say.
BANFIELD: I do want to say that, you know, some reporting about this remarkable interview last night that lasted an hour was that he was
anonymous. He`s absolutely not anonymous. I assure you we know exactly who he is.
We know his name. We know his phone number. We have been in conversations with him for days. He is not anonymous. He is terrified.
He doesn`t want his identity revealed publicly, but that does not make him anonymous. It`s also important to know we reached out to him, not the
other way around. A lot of people say that they think this is just a moment he`s seeking in the sun, but we had to work on him for a day to
convince him to actually tell the story publicly. Again, not the other way around.
[19:05:07] But I think the biggest bombshell is what you just said. Your inside source in the investigation has confirmed that Chris Watts indeed
was having affairs outside of his marriage with both men and women.
HELLING: Yes. I mean, that certainly, you know, changes things quite a bit. That explains, you know -- that explains a lot, if you`re looking
through the lens of this case, you know, what these lies may have been that he was telling his family, telling, you know, his wife.
You know, we don`t know the relationship that they had, but certainly speaking, it looks as though he was not a faithful husband by the strictest
sense of the word.
BANFIELD: Which is so unsettling. You know, I`m sorting through so many videos. There are just dozens upon dozens. And one that stands out, in
particular, is a video of Shanann really lovingly surprising him with the announcement that they`re going to have another baby. They`re -- that
she`s pregnant. That the third pregnancy, in fact, is a go.
And we often see this, Steve. We often see videos on the Internet. Here she is with her T-shirt. She is getting in position. And it says, oops, I
did it -- or, oops, we did it again. She puts out the pregnancy test, and he comes home. Who knows where from, because this is really only within
the last 15 weeks, isn`t it?
She died 15 weeks pregnant so this is within a matter of weeks that he walked in to this adorable surprise she set up. Can I actually run the
sound of him? Do we have the actual full video of him walking around the corner and being surprised?
Because, now, I want to know what his reaction is, knowing that police say he was engaged in affairs with men and women while he`s building his family
and seemingly pretty happy about it. Do we have that video? Can I run it? Let`s roll it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
C. WATTS: So pink means? We did it again.
(LAUGHTER)
C. WATTS: So pink means?
S. WATTS: That`s just the test.
C. WATTS: I don`t know. It just says that pink is going to be girls?
S. WATTS: I don`t know.
C. WATTS: Guess I -- guess when you want to, it happens. Wow.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: I guess when you want to, it happens. Now, I`m reassessing what that "wow" means. Wow, what the hell did I get myself into? Or wow, this
is great, I love my double life?
And can I ask you what your source in the investigation said about our interview?
HELLING: Well, they were aware of your interview. They said that there were no red flags based on what they heard from the interview compared to
the things that they already knew. So there wasn`t anything where he said something that the investigators were like, oh, wait, that`s a lie, that`s
not what happened.
That`s not to say that they wholeheartedly say every word that he said was true, just that they didn`t see anything that was inconsistent with the
things that they were learning.
BANFIELD: So they didn`t dismiss him outright? They didn`t say, you know what, not worth our time.
HELLING: No, they didn`t do that at all.
BANFIELD: Yes. So we also -- Steve, we reached out to the District Attorney in this case. And we both covered a lot of cases, and some are
porous and some are airtight. And this is one of those airtight cases where you just -- it`s a struggle to get any information at all.
But the D.A. did say to us that they were, in fact, aware of the interview. I think they believe -- I believe they said, we are well aware of the
interview, and then that`s where they stopped. They would answer no further questions.
They didn`t say, are you reaching out to this person? They wouldn`t answer that. Do you believe this person? They wouldn`t answer this. Could you
tell us if the relationship at work is a man or a woman? They wouldn`t answer that.
They wouldn`t go anywhere, in fact, but we did hear from the source, from the man who did the interview last night, from the alleged lover, that a
detective was coming to meet with him at 6:00 Eastern, which is about an hour and eight minutes ago. He also said that the detective was a woman.
And I`m just curious if you are surprised by that.
HELLING: No, I`m not. You know -- well, I shouldn`t say I`m not because everything in this case really does surprise me. But, you know, the bottom
line is that when somebody comes forward and starts telling the story, you know, then you have to listen to everything that they say, decide, you
know, does it all sound true? Does half of it sound true?
So there`s nothing that he said to me, you know, stunned me. But you know, there are some -- he gave us new leads to look at, Ashleigh. That`s really
what`s going on here. And you know, this wasn`t --
BANFIELD: Boy, I`ll say.
HELLING: Yes, this wasn`t the direction I expected this case to go.
BANFIELD: No. But then again, Steve, what you have discovered -- and, again, if anyone is just joining us on this live program tonight, Steve
Helling from "People" Magazine, one of the foremost crime reporters in the country -- and I have been in the business 30 years, so I know a thing or
two about crime reporting, and, Steve, you`re one of the best.
HELLING: Thank you.
BANFIELD: Your sources are impeccable. Your reporting is impeccable. I have worked with you day in and day out on the Casey Anthony case, and so I
know your work is solid.
[19:10:07] And your source is saying, again, breaking news and a bombshell discovery here, that Chris Watts was having affairs with both men and women
while married to Shanann Watts. And it is so disturbing to see these family videos where she seems so in awe of him and so in love with him.
And she admires him on Happy Spouse`s Day, Happy Husband`s Day, Happy Father`s Day. She has a tribute video to every one of these hallmark
occasions where she pays tribute to him. A surprise birthday present, Metallica tickets because it`s his band. An incredible piece of mechanics`
equipment that he wanted for one birthday, she surprised him with it.
And then we see this redacted affidavit. And so it`s starting to make a little more sense now, Steve, the redacted affidavit that covers up the
information about the person with whom he`s having the affair at work. And it`s a lot of redaction.
So now that we know what your source has said in the police investigation, that he was having affairs with men and women, what do you make of this
business, about four full lines of redaction, about this person at work?
HELLING: It just adds to the mystery, Ashleigh, because, you know, we don`t know if -- this person who he was having an affair with, we don`t
know if they were male or female. We just don`t know at the moment.
It`s just curious that so much of this was redacted. So there`s absolutely no identifying information that`s out there all of a sudden. And that`s --
you know, that is -- that certainly leaves a lot of doors open at this point. And so nothing will surprise me, when we finally see this
nonredaction, what it ends up being.
BANFIELD: Yes. And I`m going to recreate that graphic for later because that shows three lines. There`s one more line after it that`s blacked out
as well, having to do with this topic of this lover at work, whomever he or she is.
Steve, the hits keep coming. Your scoops have been incredible today. You have another one. You have another source in the investigation present at
the time that Chris Watts was brought in for the booking.
So let`s just set the stage for our viewers. Presumably, if what Chris Watts says is true, he is being booked for a story whereby he saw his
children being murdered before his very eyes and in a rage, murdered his loving wife. And yet in the booking, what did your source witness?
HELLING: My source told me that there was not a lot of emotion there. And normally, there is emotion. When somebody who is not a career criminal is
being booked into jail on serious charges, they`re upset. They`re angry, they`re crying, they`re unhappy. And there was none of that.
He just kind of went through the motions. He was very stoic. He was very reserved. And it was almost like he couldn`t be bothered by the whole
thing, was the quote that I got. And I think that`s really, really interesting.
BANFIELD: Couldn`t be bothered by the whole thing. Was he aware that he was staring down three first-degree murder charges which, in the state of
Colorado, can bring with them the death penalty?
HELLING: Well, obviously, he was aware that he was getting arrested for the deaths of his family. So, yes, I mean, he`s a smart guy. He was
certainly aware of it.
And you know, that could -- there could be many explanations for why. I guess, we could say that, you know, was he in shock, whatever, but all we
know is that he didn`t show emotion as he was being booked into jail.
BANFIELD: You know when else he didn`t show any emotion, was when he actually made that court appearance as well and walked right by Shanann`s
grieving, sobbing father who could barely keep his head up and the icy death dagger of a stare from Shanann`s brother, Franky, who was also in
that courtroom.
And the flat affect on the porch when he was begging us all to help us find his pretty wife and beautiful children, who were, I don`t know, somewhere
out there. I don`t know, maybe she did take off.
But in this moment in court, the emotion was so raw from Shanann`s family. That`s her father. And that`s her brother on the right, throwing a death
stare at that man across the courtroom. And yet he held his head high.
Chris Watts stared across the courtroom. He sure didn`t show that he was upset about his two babies being dead. According to his story, they had
just been murdered by his wife, but he showed no emotion at all. Sat there stoically just like that.
HELLING: It boggles the mind. I don`t know how anybody would react that way. And I understand people react differently under stressful situations,
but this just goes outside what you would expect somebody to do in such a stressful situation. Even if we believe every word that he says.
BANFIELD: Sure.
HELLING: This doesn`t -- this isn`t -- this certainly doesn`t --
BANFIELD: It`s not plausible.
HELLING: Yes, it doesn`t seem plausible.
BANFIELD: Yes. Something else that you broke that is incredible. Your inside source in the investigation says if his story is the way he tells
it, the evidence does not match.
[19:14:59] HELLING: Right. And you know, obviously, I don`t know what all the evidence is and you don`t know what all the evidence is, but the
investigators are putting together what the evidence is. And they`re saying right now, you know, his story doesn`t add up.
And that`s not a big surprise, really, because we certainly know that he was charged with three counts of first-degree murder, which means police do
not believe his story. But they haven`t found anything since that has made them change their mind and say, well, we need to drop these charges.
BANFIELD: Your reporting has been amazing, and it`s just bombshell after bombshell. The magazine -- "People" Magazine`s issue with Steve`s
reporting is on newsstands right now. And I guarantee you, if you go to dotcom, he`ll have updated it with even more brand-new information.
Thank you so much, Steve. I really appreciate all of this.
HELLING: Thank you.
BANFIELD: I also want to let our viewers know that the prosecutors, as Steve said, they`re still in the early stages of building this case against
Chris Watts. But how do they decide what are the good leads and what aren`t? That`s next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:20:50] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
S. WATTS: He stuck around because he was the one for me.
C. WATTS: When somebody is not faithful to their partner, the partners realize the relationship cannot be sustained.
THAYER: He could be cheating, but at the same time, she was like, he has no game.
S. WATTS: I can`t tell you how wonderful he is.
BANFIELD (voice-over): A man claims that he had an affair with Chris Watts.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He messaged me. It seemed all very innocent at first.
S. WATTS: He knew me at my worst and he accepted me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: I still get the chills when I see that. I still get the chills when I see a video of Shanann Watts from mere weeks ago talking about how
special that husband was to her and how she was so in love with him and how he was the best thing that ever happened to her.
And it wasn`t all an act either. You have to watch video after video to realize that even in her distraction, she can`t help but gush about this
man. There are framed pictures of the word "dad" in that home. Three of them.
This wasn`t a fake. And if it was, it`s about the best Oscar-worthy performance I have ever seen on a home video. Or shall I say, dozens of
home videos.
Shanann Watts and her two little girls had trips that were planned all throughout the summer. And the story was that Chris, that loving, doting
husband and father, could not make all of those trips. Of course, it was because of work.
But after the Watts girls were found dead and Chris was arrested for their murders, that story started sounding less likely. Because that`s when the
police determined he had been having an affair with a co-worker.
And now, a source close to that investigation has told "People" Magazine and our Steve Helling, our guest tonight, that indeed, Chris Watts was
seeing both men, plural, and women. And we have tracked down a man who claims to be one of Chris` former lovers.
We are not naming him and we`re not showing him. We can`t verify what he says, including that he and Chris got together at least once when Shanann
was out of town, but our producers have seen their supposed text messages between one another.
And we have decided to share his side of the story in case it helps to shed light on who this man was in all of those critical months leading up to the
deaths. Months in which that family seemed full of nothing but bliss.
I want to just remind you that Steve Helling`s reporting has been bombshell after bombshell this week. "People" Magazine is on the newsstands right
now with his incredible breaking news.
Also, people.com has his newest information, which is that, yes, indeed, that man in that beautiful wedding picture, under the banner, "Secrets and
Lies," had a few secrets and was telling a lot of lies. Was, in fact, seeing both men and women, according to Steve Helling`s inside source. A
source close to the investigation is telling Steve Helling this.
Steve, I want you to say with me, if you will. And I also want to bring in Jon Buehler, if I can. Jon has a unique perspective on this case as only
he could because he was with the Modesto Police Department as the detective on the Scott Peterson case.
And lo and behold, here we have a proven liar again in our midst. A man who`s all too friendly with the camera and lies with such ease. We have
seen this with Casey Anthony. We`ve seen it with Drew Peterson. We`ve seen it with Scott Peterson. We`ve seen it time after time.
This story takes the cake because of the nature of all the video leading up to it. But I do want you, Jon, to comment on this remarkable interview
last night from this man who claims that he was with him -- he was with Chris Watts romantically for 10 months. Give me your reaction.
[19:24:57] JON BUEHLER, FORMER DETECTIVE, MODESTO POLICE DEPARTMENT, CALIFORNIA: Well, if this information is true -- and it seems a little bit
more likely tonight that it may be after hearing about Steve`s excellent reporting on it -- it does start to explain that incredible difference
between the emotions we would expect of a father grieving their children and a guy like this that likely killed them.
It seems like he was probably so far distant from this relationship and being a father, struggling with internal turmoil on where he wants to go,
whether he wants to be with a woman or a man, and dealing with all of this stuff, that I think he probably checked out of being a father a long time
before this crime actually occurred, which explains why he really is not affected by it. Comparing his reaction, of course, to Shanann`s father and
her brother in the courtroom.
BANFIELD: I want to ask you about something Steve and I were just talking about. I think it stood out to you as well, Steve, that remarkable big
black mess of ink on the affidavit that we all got. An affidavit that is filled with details, really specific details from the police, and yet some
critical details are missing.
Jon, you`re an investigator. You`re a detective. You have filled out these warrants. You have written these warrants. You have probably helped
to redact some of them.
Does this stand out as a little more information redacted than needs to be redacted if you`re just trying to protect the name of some affair at work?
BUEHLER: Well, not necessarily so much that but it`s just the fact that the defense came to the court and had those certain information redacted
from the document. Usually, that`s done by the prosecution, and so it`s kind of unusual to see this happen.
It suggests that maybe Chris has some intense allegiance and affection for whoever is in there, and he wants to protect them. And it seems like that
would probably make some sense.
But for us to do it in law enforcement, yes, we would do that, but not to this extent. And oftentimes, if we were going to do anything like that, we
would just seal the affidavit so that nobody could see it until the case progressed a little bit further.
BANFIELD: So I get it. I get it. Even while he`s facing down the biggest crisis of his life, the potential of going, you know, to the death chamber
-- that`s what he`s facing while he`s getting his lawyer to protect his sweetheart.
Even that, I`ll give him that. OK, I`ll give him that. Does it require taking four full lines out of the affidavit, or does that sound like
there`s a lot more information than just name, address, and maybe work position?
BUEHLER: Well, it does to me because, like you said, it isn`t going to take that much redacting to get that out of there. But just the mere fact
that the defense made that claim or that petition to the court to have it done and they took so much out, it really -- I`m looking for Steve to
uncover that tomorrow. I`m hoping he can do that.
BANFIELD: Well, if we don`t get to it first. But at this point, I think Steve and I are working in lockstep on some of this just remarkable stuff.
And I dare say that, in this case, it`s -- they`re once a decade, the Casey Anthonys, the Jodi Arias, the Scott Petersons. Ones that have so many
unbelievable details in them. And I think we`re only at the tip of the iceberg.
And, Steve, you tell me, is this one of those where you sense we don`t know the half of it?
HELLING: We don`t. And this is one of those cases where I think our jaws are going to drop a lot, Ashleigh, over the next few weeks and months as
things come out, as more discovery comes out, as this happens.
You know, you have been there. It seems like every time something new comes up, you`re like, wow, I didn`t see that coming. You`re -- you get
blindsided all the time.
BANFIELD: Yes, I sure didn`t see that coming. I didn`t see this affidavit coming when it was let -- you know, let out live on the air.
HELLING: Yes.
BANFIELD: I just did not see this twist coming. And there`s so much more I want to ask about that.
Kirby Clements is a defense attorney. Jump into this conversation with me. You just heard Jon Buehler say what`s shocking is that it was not the
prosecutors who wanted to protect this sweetheart at work, whomever he or she is. It was Chris Watts and his defense attorney that asked to have
this redaction done, and the prosecutors agreed.
So you tell me, have you ever had a defendant who is facing the most serious charge in his or her life, and the first thought is to protect
someone else`s name?
KIRBY CLEMENTS, SENIOR PARTNER, THE CLEMENTS LAW GROUP: Well, you know, you`ve got to look into all of the potentials for that. That is, you may
actually have a witness or someone that you`re going to call that you don`t want to have the press or people bombarding that person and tainting them.
So it may not necessarily be a decision to protect a lover because I love this person or persons. It may be a tactical move.
So I have made motions to try to keep things out not because my client was sitting there dictating it but because I thought it was going to benefit my
client later on down the line. And that could be a very legitimate reason to redact the names of a person or several people.
BUEHLER: Yes.
BANFIELD: Four lines, Kirby? Four whole lines. So not just name and address, that would`ve been one line. Four full lines. And you just see
on your screen three. There was another one in addition to that.
[19:29:59] CLEMENTS: That, again, is -- so that`s a lot of black ink right there, but I can just tell you that, depending on what those four lines
said, those four lines could have been very crucial to the defense.
And you have to make a decision strategically in a case like this. And sometimes if you`ve got to redact the whole page, so be it, but you`ve got
to do your job.
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HLN HOST: So, Kirby, you understand though more than anybody as a defense attorney, it`s typically the prosecutors who, A, want
to make sure that someone in a high-profile, national headline-making case isn`t about to have his or her life destroyed by the press on the lawn.
Think about Amber Frey. She had to get Gloria Allred as her attorney in that case, because unbeknownst to her, the man that she thought was
adorable was a murder, was a wife and baby killer. And so, I can understand a prosecutor wanting to protect someone like that. I can also
understand a prosecutor and an investigator saying I don`t want whomever this person is talking to the press. (AUDIO GAP) a clean record of
everything this person is going to say, and I want it first, and I want it foremost. That all makes sense to me.
I have a tougher time with the defense, the defense protecting this much information. Again, while the charges are so serious, down the road, I get
it, but in the moment that you are facing the potential of a death penalty story three times over, I can`t imagine that your first allegiance is to
make (AUDIO GAP) remains anonymous. It`s just a little shocking to me. I want you all to hold on for a minute if you will.
I have a regular guest on this program, Joseph Scott Morgan, who is a professor of (AUDIO GAP). I mean, honest to god, as a certified death
investigator, there is no one who knows more about it than Joe. And Joe, when we come back, there`s something that I`ve been wanting to ask you a
lot about. Video after video after video, I have seen something that I think is going to play a big part in this case, and I feel like you`re the
guy who`s going to know about it. Because you can tell a lot from a woman`s manicure. Shannan Watts clearly loved her bright colors, her bold
designs, but it is not the colors that she painted on those nails. It is not the manicure that she was so careful about. It is not the seasons that
she represented or the holidays or the games, the football games that she reflected in those nails. It is now the forensics under those nails, and
the story that they may just tell us about whether that husband of hers, whom she loved so much, has told his final lie.
[19:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHANNAN WATTS, MURDER VICTIM: 2018 is my year. I`m claiming it. We say, I am loved.
CELESTE WATTS, MURDER VICTIM: I am loved.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (AUDIO GAP) and those girls so much.
S. WATTS: I am special.
C. WATTS: I am special.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He just didn`t seem like the type of guy to injure a fly. They have the hearts of angels and the (AUDIO GAP) of angels. I
can`t believe that they`re gone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: As we speak, a stunned community is now trying to plan a funeral. Not one but three. (AUDIO GAP) find a way to (AUDIO GAP) all
three lives. Shannan Watts, Bella Watts, and Cece Watts. Without reminding anyone of just how dark their deaths were. We know that daddy
will not be at that funeral because police say it was daddy, it was Chris Watts who`s responsible for killing them. Though how he might have done it
still remains a mystery, and he certainly has his story.
I want to bring in Joseph Scott Morgan, a certified death investigator, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. You saw that
montage going out to break, Joe, of Shannan`s meticulous manicure. She was so devoted to keeping her nails in perfect shape, changing the color by the
holiday or the season or the football game, but never once did those nails appear as anything but perfect. And in my estimation, that`s got to be a
(AUDIO GAP) for investigators.
JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: Yes, you`re absolutely right, Ashleigh. Let`s reflect back and think about these two children
first. These children were found submerged in petroleum, all right? I don`t know how much trace evidence (AUDIO GAP). However, I will point this
out, Shannan was buried. And with this, what we`re going to be looking for in the nail, beneath the nail, at autopsy, one of the things that will
happen, they will do what are first referred to as nail scrapings. So, they will actually scrape beneath the nail to remove any kind of skin
samples that there might be from a foreign entity, OK? That is a person that may be attacking her or whatever the case might be. This is not
touched -- this is not for the purposes of touch DNA. This could be long strand DNA, and also they will do nail clippings or the way the nails and
(AUDIO GAP). It`s going to be very important.
One of the things that I`m very, very interested in in regards to this husband is the following: what injuries, if any -- if any, did the police
observe (AUDIO GAP) body? I`m talking about around his face, in his beard, or remember, he`s got this neatly-trimmed beard, around his neck, on his
wrist, around his arms, anywhere on his shoulders to fight him off. You`re talking about a woman who is pregnant, who has two children, she may have
just found out that they`re dead. She is going to be upset. There had to have been a fight in my opinion.
[19:40:24] BANFIELD: Well, there would have been some kind of pitched battle. You`re being strangled, you are fighting for your life. In fact,
the video we`re showing right now, a lot of people on Facebook and on social media have pointed out what they thought were red marks on Chris`
neck, on the left-hand side of his neck, on the opposite side where he`s holding the phone. In some pictures, it definitely looks like there`s a
slight red mark. In other pictures it looks like maybe just a blemish, but clearly, police know exactly what to look for. And how to delineate
between those, correct?
MORGAN: Yes, they do. And you know, this is -- this is trace evidence that is kind of (AUDIO GAP) kind of protected because it would be beneath
the level of the nail. We`re finding out a lot of information about the dynamics of the family right now and all this stuff, but to this point,
like you had mentioned, the only (AUDIO GAP) that we really have about the cause and manner of death to this point, is what he had initially -- that
statement he had initially allegedly made to the police. To this point, the coroner (AUDIO GAP) said anything, the M.E. (AUDIO GAP) anything,
nothing has been released.
BANFIELD: Yes. So -- and that`s what leads me to my next question for you. And I think this is a critical piece of evidence that eventually we
will learn when the autopsy is made public. Shannan was on a delayed flight, she was coming home from a work trip on Sunday night that bled into
Monday morning. It was around 2:00 (AUDIO GAP) when she got home. And if you and I are any example after a long flight, the last thing we would do
is go to sleep in the clothes we were in, correct? And especially if you`re a woman, you want to clean up, maybe wash your face. Chris` story,
if you believe the police affidavit, is that she went to bed. And then at 5:00 in the morning, they had some kind of an emotional argument. He told
her he wanted to split. She went and (AUDIO GAP). If she is found buried in anything other than pajamas, that has got to be a massive clue, correct?
MORGAN: Yes. It would be. That means that there was a changing of clothing, this sort of thing, and this all goes back to what we call in
medical legal death investigation terms as PMI, that is post-mortem interval. This is critical in this case. I have always wondered about
this case since you and I first started discussing this, Ash, how long had those children been deceased, how long had they been down? And what is the
interval between the time in (AUDIO GAP) what time in which she passed? Is there going to be any difference there?
BANFIELD: Yes, that will be a big clue because they had actually said that the window within which we need to assess (AUDIO GAP) children were killed
is all the way from Sunday into Monday. They are not saying that it was at the same time that Shanann was killed. They`re saying you`ve got to leave
that window open, perhaps last known contact with them, Shanann arrives (AUDIO GAP) know for a fact, some time around 2:00 in the morning, so she
definitely died after 2:00 in the morning.
But I`m so fascinated to find out what those children were wearing when they were dumped (AUDIO GAP) oil tanks and what Shannan might have been
wearing when she was buried in a shallow grave. What it was that was used to lug those bodies out to that site in the back of his truck as is
detailed in the police accusation against him. All of it is so uncomfortable, especially when you see a video in the master bed of these
little girls singing "Holly Jolly Christmas" with Chris beside them. The master bed that became a scene of the crime. It`s so disturbing to see
this. I want to just listen to it for a moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BELLA WATTS, MURDER VICTIM: Have a holly jolly Christmas. It`s the best time of the year. I don`t know if there is snow but --
[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
S. WATTS: Eight years later, we have two kids. We live in Colorado.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everyone who looked at Shannan and Chris, they just immediate thought was love.
S. WATTS: He is the best thing that has ever happened to me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The way that she looked at him and the way that he looked at her. I`m sickened that a parent could do that to his children
and to his wife.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: They went from Facebook friends to mom and dad to murder victim and murder suspect. Wasn`t all that long ago that Chris and Shanann Watts
seemed deeply in love. And excited about expanding their family with a brand-new baby boy. But that little boy will not be coming because in only
a matter of weeks, the Watts family has drastically changed. Shannan and the girls are dead, and dad is behind bars accused of triple murder. And
the clues as to what happened are only just starting to surface. Stories of lovers in his past, both male and female, now surfacing. People
Magazine with an inside source in the investigation saying both men and women in his past, he was involved with all of them.
[19:50:14] And then there is that investigation and the upcoming funeral for Shannan and the girls. Joseph Scott Morgan, as a death investigator,
he says that she strangled those babies. Can you tell forensically if you can get a look at those children`s necks, what the size of the hands were
that may have done it? Is it provable that it was either he or she that did it?
MORGAN: I think that that would be very difficult, what would be there, though, Ash, is the fact that underneath the layer of skin, there will be
deep tissue hemorrhage in there, (AUDIO GAP) areas of hemorrhage. So, it could be proven that these children and as well as Shanann has been
throttled at some point in time.
BANFIELD: I mean, he was just so exquisite at lying, it`s hard to believe him now when he tells the story but they have to forensically map this out
in a case against him. There is, you know, a funeral planned for this Saturday, alongside the same day that John McCain is being laid to rest,
Shannan and the girls will be laid to rest. They are catholic. It is often protocol to have an open casket. Do you see it as a possibility
given the way that it is believed these -- this mother and two children died, that they could have open caskets?
MORGAN: I think that it might be difficult. I think that they`re going to be probably in a moderate state of decomposition. I think that would be
very difficult, yes.
BANFIELD: And not just necessarily because of the reported strangulation of them, it`s mostly that the state of decomposition after four days,
correct?
MORGAN: (AUDIO GAP) any kind of external trauma on the neck could be covered but unless their faces were marked up in some way traumatically, I
think that decomposition will be the biggest (AUDIO GAP).
BANFIELD: I mean, that is just so incredibly sad, all of it, every aspect of it, sad but also so enraging. When you see the banner on this program,
Did Chris Watts Have Secret Gay Lovers? Now, Steve Helling with this bombshell reporting from People Magazine that yes, indeed, the police are
confirming to Steve Helling from People that he had both male and female lovers, that he was more than likely hiding from the woman who could not
say more about him in the loving way that a wife would. All of it just so horrifying to good God-fearing family people across America who look at
these pictures and say, God, please, don`t let it be true.
Being a mother isn`t all about the big wins, the parental wins, it`s also about the little moments where a child is completely wrapped up in love and
Shanann Watts certainly seemed to be a master of the moments. Her little daily message to her girls is next.
[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: It is a fact of life that we all have dark nights and very difficult days but Shanann Watts never hid from her challenges. Instead
she used her experiences, good and bad as a way to help others. And she was teaching Bella and Celeste this vital life lesson, creating something
called a vision board. If you don`t know what it is, something that lists out all the things you want to achieve. For Cece, that involves pretzels.
For Bella, it was a trip to Disneyworld with her grandparents and the dream of maybe one day being a teacher or a doctor or a princess. Shannan told
her daughters every day how very special they were.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
S. WATTS: What do we do every day? We say I am loved.
B. WATTS: I am loved.
S. WATTS: I am beautiful.
B. WATTS: I am beautiful.
S. WATTS: I am special.
B. WATTS: I am special.
S. WATTS: I am healthy.
B. WATTS: I am healthy.
S. WATTS: I am blessed.
B. WATTS: I am blessed.
S. WATTS: I am strong.
B. WATTS: I am strong.
S. WATTS: Yes. I am gifted.
B. WATTS: I am gifted.
S. WATTS: I am smart.
B. WATTS: I am smart.
S. WATTS: I am confident.
B. WATTS: I am confident.
S. WATTS: (AUDIO GAP)
B. WATTS: I am perfect.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: We`ll see you right back here tomorrow night at 6:00 Eastern. You can listen to our show any time, download our podcast, Apple Podcast,
iHeartRadio, Stitcher, TuneIn, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks so much for watching, everyone. "FORENSIC FILES" begins right now.
END
