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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield

Bombshell New Claims In Family Massacre; CNN Heroes; Frederick Murder Suspect Christopher Watts Says Prosecutors Leaked Information; Elizabeth Smart Urges Authorities To Reconsider Planned Release Of Kidnapper Wanda Barzee; Criminologist Claims Cheating Killer Dad Chris Watts Murdered His Pregnant Wife And Two Daughters To Start A New Life With His Lover. Aired 6-8p ET

Aired September 13, 2018 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We can rest in peace knowing that her case has been solved, because of forensic science.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His mouth. His hands. His fingers. Why the people trying to put Chris Watts away for murder?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s a lot of evidentiary information --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are dissecting every inch of him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What are the specifics?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do they see something that proves he killed his own kids?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am sickened that a parent, a father, could do that to his children.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And does anything show that he planned it in advance?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is evidence that there was premeditation for the deaths or murders of these three people.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what about the story, his defense.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To think a wife would kill her children after a husband said that he wants to leave is pretty far out.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is he really going to throw his now dead pregnant wife under the bus?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If your theory is the wife killed the kids you wouldn`t get rid of the evidence that would help explain that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just how will a jury respond, since that dead wife can speak from the grave?

SHANANN WATTS, VICTIM, WIFE OF CHRIS WATTS: It`s hard for me did understand. He was the one for me. I let him in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HOST, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE: Good evening everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. And this is "Crime and Justice." It has been a

month since Chris Watts was put in handcuffs, and Chris Watts has had nearly a month to sit in a solitary jail cell and think about his future

and his past. And of course perhaps think about what he is done.

If you think about it, it really depend who you ask. Because police say what he is done is kill his pregnant wife and their two adorable daughters,

hiding their bodies at his worksite and telling everyone they were just missing. Chris says what he is done is just a little bit different than

that. Police saying he told them that he only killed his wife after he saw her strangling their daughters.

Figuring out which parents might have killed the kids means taking a look at the supposed murder weapon, which in the case of strangulation, is

usually hands, but the prosecution isn`t just asking for Chris Watts` handprints and fingerprints. They want to take a look inside his mouth as

well. The mouth that he used just weeks ago to kiss his wife and daughters before police say he killed them. And the mouth that he used to lie to all

of us about where they were.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTIAN WATTS, HUSBAND OF SHANANN WATTS, SUSPECT: Nobody to be there last night, to go into their rooms and not know that I wasn`t going to turn

the rain machines on, know that I wasn`t going to turn their monitor on, know that I wasn`t going to kiss them to bed tonight, it was -- it was -- I

-- that is why I left last night, it was just horrible. I couldn`t do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: He wasn`t on that porch very long before he was shackled and taken to the local jail where he still sits crafting his defense. And all

the while filing motions, all sorts of different motions. Those motions need responses. And now those responses are public. And they are nothing

short of fascinating. I want to bring in crime journalist Pat Lalama. Pat, ever since the day he was walked through that courtroom in his orange

jumpsuit with the family crying uncontrollably, watching the man they used to consider their son-in-law, brother-in-law, standing there now accused, a

triple murder, a child killer.

Ever since that day we wondered, what will his defense be? How will they try to prove what they say he did? And now we`re starting to see a little

bit about the back and forth in this case. Just summarize what this last day, and it`s technically boring when you have court documents, but not in

this case.

PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE: Well, maybe it will be more exciting if I tell you it seems like diversionary tactics. Here`s the

documents that you`re talking about, I`ve read through them. First of all, authorities want to do DNA swabs inside of his mouth, they want to take

pictures of his hands and his palms. So we can guess perhaps maybe they`ve learned something since the murders that they didn`t do that on the first

day, I don`t know. Secondly the defense is saying the prosecution`s leaking information that is not good for his due process, it`s against his

rights as a defendant.

The prosecution retaliates by saying, we didn`t do it, and the defense wants an investigation. The prosecution says, who`s going to pay for that?

So it seems like the defense is trying everything to take the onus off of him right now, because he is done so much damage to his own case by himself

that now maybe they`re trying to slow the process.

BANFIELD: OK. So, I`ll get to that in a minute, because I find that fascinating as well. The prosecutors have been very pointed in their

response to Chris Watts` concerns about all the media coverage of this case.

[18:05:03] And it`s almost ironic when I get to it. I want to go back to what they`re being asked right now. And that is that Chris Watts is being

asked to let some forensic guy come in and do what they call buccal swab, a DNA swab inside the mouth. And they want palm prints and the fingerprints.

But it doesn`t even stop there. They want the process photographed and Polaroid`s snapped to the files to show here he is while he is been printed

and swabbed. And then they want digital photographs of the size and shape, et cetera, of his hands. You`ve done this job as long as I have, what did

that say to you?

LALAMA: Longer. You know, forensic analysts could probably tell you more. But just in my experience, all -- I think what they`re doing is crossing

every "t," and dotting every "i." I really think that authorities, that prosecutors and law enforcement, are trying to do their due diligence. And

they want to make sure that there isn`t anything that the defense can throw at them that says, oh, mistrial. Or, that can`t be admitted. I just think

they`re covering their tracks. As for why they`re doing it now, I think that is a great mystery. Why didn`t they do this on day one? Because we

all know in these cases generally the spouse is the first person to look at.

Maybe they did and we don`t know and they`re doing it again, or maybe they`ve learned some information since then. But like you said, I call it

the buccal swab back here by the molars. They want the distinctive palms, they want Polaroids, they want digital and interestingly, I read in this

report, I don`t know if it will have to do with this particular DNA testing. That the defense wants to videotape everything. So it sounds

like they`re just getting ready to go to war in terms of diversion or tactics.

BANFIELD: It sounds to me like they have seen this rodeo before.

LALAMA: Oh, yes.

BANFIELD: They`ve seen Scott Peterson, they`ve seen Casey Anthony, they`ve seen O.J. Simpson, and they`ve seen chain of custody being challenged,

they`ve seen every single thing that they can throw a spaghetti in the fridge and see what sits. And there are no gloves.

LALAMA: No gloves.

BANFIELD: No gloves, right?

LALAMA: No glove issue.

BANFIELD: They`re crossing "I`s" before the letters are written. It`s just so remarkable. That said, I have got to read to you some of the stuff

that the prosecutor is saying. And again, this is all by technical legalese which is typically kind of boring, it`s why we hire lawyers. But

when you know the context, it ain`t boring in the least, right?

LALAMA: Right.

BANFIELD: The context is that Chris Watts has said to the prosecutors, you`re leaking so much information, you`re tainting all the potential

people who might be jurors in my case. I want you to investigate. When he says you, it`s very vague. It`s government. I want the government to

investigate and find the source of leaks. So here`s the response from the prosecutors. And this was just filed yesterday. So its super interesting

to see how they`re wording it, what the tone is.

They actually look and say, essentially, well, Mr. Watts, you kind of were the first person to put stuff on paper and put it out there. Here`s what

they said. It was a defense exhibit that alerted the press to the fact that the children were likely killed by strangulation, that Chris Watts was

alleging that Shanann Watts was the parent responsible for their death, and that the bodies of the children had been recovered from an oil tank.

Prosecutors here are saying, hey, we never said any of this, you did. Weeks ago, with your formal motion that you filed.

So that is really interesting. They went further, though. And this is what`s super interesting, Pat. They said, Chris Watts, it`s ironic,

effectively that you`re worried about press coverage, considering you were the person who stood before TV cameras and catapulted this case into the

stratosphere of publicity. Let me put it in their words. This is directly from their response. "The events leading up to the filing of this case

quickly garnered the attention of the nation, driven in large part by the now-unnerving pleas of help made by the defendant himself, local community

members, and individuals around the community -- the country followed constant news reports of the search for Shanann, Bella, and Celeste Watts.

Now the defendant has been charged with murdering his family and disposing of their deceased bodies. National media interest in the case is likely to

persist." That is kind of black and white, isn`t it?

LALAMA: Well, you know what it seems like to me, Ashleigh, just from observing as a media observer, is that the defense`s first job,

unfortunately, in this is to try to extract the bullet from his own feet. Because he shot himself in the foot by standing there with this ridiculous,

you know, state of sorrow, and I just wish, you know, my kids were home and blah, blah, blah, only to find out it was a bald-faced lie. Whether he is

found guilty of this or not.

[18:10:00] And so, and then also yelling and screaming at the prosecution, you`re hurting our case, you`re hurting our client, only to find out that

they`re the ones who released the most prejudicial and inflammatory evidence. So yes, the defense is really not -- they`re starting from way

back. They`re not starting on even in the playing field.

BANFIELD: And anybody from the defense community who`s watching right now, I get it. Everybody deserves a fair defense. Without question.

LALAMA: Of course, of course.

BANFIELD: You do not deserve to have a jury pool tainted, but there are also natural realities of certain kinds of cases. People work on cases,

not cyborgs. People have friends, wives, spouses, and children. People put things on their desks that janitors see. All sorts of things can lead

to leaks. And you cannot have a perfect case. And when it`s this big and when Chris Watts makes it this big by his own actions, it gets even less

perfect. Let me read something else here. The interest that the prosecutors list out here is that Chris Watts wants something like a

special commission to investigate.

LALAMA: Right.

BANFIELD: So, let me just list out from the top of my head here, and actually, Art Roderick, if you`re on, as a former Assistant Director of

U.S. Marshals, CNN law enforcement analyst, I think you`re going to know best how these investigations work. It is on the top of my head, Frederick

P.D. responded.

ART RODERICK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALSYT: Right.

BANFIELD: The sheriffs were involved immediately. The Colorado Bureau of Investigation had a hand in this case as well. The FBI was brought in.

She was a missing person. And those are missing children.

RODERICK: Right.

BANFIELD: Surrounding police departments all around Frederick, Colorado, were called in to help. How do I know that? Because the police chief of

Frederick did a public letter to thank them. Literally thousands of people --

RODERICK: Thousands, yes.

BANFIELD: -- are involved in this case, Art Roderick, how could you even begin to find out who might have said something to someone?

RODERICK: It`s impossible. I mean, it would take up all your time doing that instead of putting this case together from the prosecution side. I

think what you have here is when you look at cases similar to this, you can go all the way back to Scott Peterson or any of these cases where an

individual has come on TV and pled for his wife and children to come back, only to find out 24, 48 hours later, that he had murdered them.

So, any time we have cases like this, it always hits major, major national press. And you`re going to have leaks here and there. Whether those leaks

are valid or not, or whether correct information is coming out during those leaks, it`s unknown at this point, but it would be completely impossible

for the county or for the P.D. to try and investigate something like this.

And you know, they say hundreds. I think you`re probably more accurately correct, Ashleigh, there`s probably thousands. And there`s nothing you can

do on a case that garners this much interest. You`re going to have leaks on both sides.

BANFIELD: And you know, we`ve got a lot of people who watch this program. And you know, hats off to you, many of you watching right now have been

absolutely incredible in your sleuthing. We`re going to get some of your questions on the air in just a few moments so stick around, because you

sent them over our Facebook, here is the chance that is going to come up on the screen any minute, but one of the things that is super fascinating in

this line of work and in your line of work, journalists and detectives, sources. We all have them. And sometimes the way they`re worded can be

very specific. So sources close to an investigation. That is different than high-level sources involved in the investigation.

RODERICK: Right.

BANFIELD: Sources who are familiar with the investigation is also very different. It could be the administrator who`s filing things. It could be

a document left on a desk overnight while a janitor comes in. There are many different ways of sourcing information. So the fact that Chris Watts

thinks immediately someone in the cop department or the prosecutor department is flapping his, you know, gums? It`s a big leap. Because as a

journalist I can tell you, I have found my sources in the most unassuming places. Just that said, "People" magazine has been incredible on this

story.

I will say that Steve Helling and his team over at "People" have broken so many details on this case. And some of them I was pretty astounded at.

"People" magazine had a source in the investigation who found out that Chris Watts had apparently been discovered in terms of having several

different lovers, male and female. Also hairs had been found, many of them, hundreds of them, had been found in the truck. That is another piece

of information from "People." That computers and phones and bed sheets had been recovered from that home and that apparently search histories had not

been deleted, neither had text messages.

Those are all significant kinds of information. Rene Sandler, as a defense attorney, weigh in here on the significance of that kind of information

from a defense perspective. Par for the course in just about any garden- variety murder case? Or standard op for a high-profile one? Or something else?

RENE SANDLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: There`s nothing standard operating here. You have a very high-profile case which is a forensic dream for a defense

attorney and prosecutors as well.

[18:15:03] You have so many layers of evidence. You have DNA collection issues as well as analysis. You have pathology. The cause of death, the

medical pathology for each of the victims. You have digital and other computer-type evidence to analyze. There is so much forensics to analyze.

And you just mentioned hair and fiber. So many, many experts need to be involved and much, much analysis needs to be done across the board.

BANFIELD: You know, I`m going to say this too. I have worked the phones for weeks on this case. I`ve worked harder on this case than I have in a

number of other cases that I have covered. And I have found it to be impossible to get sourced information. And so I will just say right now

that whatever e-mail the D.A. put out to the law enforcement agencies, it worked.

I have had such an easier time on so many other stories finding information about a case. Not necessarily compromising information, but information.

In this case, it is air tight. It is rock solid. It is locked down. It`s been very difficult. In a few cases I have found information for this

particular story, but generally speaking, comparatively, this has been one of the hardest cases to crack for a journalist to get information on. We

even had to push -- we even had to push for public filings. Let`s just get that to marinade for a minute. We have had to force the hand for public

information. What does that tell you?

Chris Watts may be fighting an uphill battle here. All right. I want to take a pause for one moment. I have so much more material that I want to

get into this program and in fact a lot more is coming. It is only 16 minutes after the hour right now, but we`re going to do a lot of your

questions. And then at 7:00 we`re going to address a few more things with regard to these motions. Some real humdingers in there. I mean, honestly?

I can`t even tell you. Real humdingers. And also, why the photos of his hands? A thinking man might be speculating right now as to why. We`ll get

to the bottom of that in a moment too.

In most of Chris and Shanann`s photos, you can see them wearing patches like this on their shoulders or their arms or legs. And a lot of you have

asked, what the heck is that? There`s a lot to that. We`re going to get to the bottom of those patches and how they may have had an impact on Chris

and Shanann`s lifestyle, next.

[18:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

S. WATTS: We`re not promised tomorrow. We`re not promised anything.

WATTS: I need to see everybody again. This house is not complete without anybody here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police arrested Chris on suspicion of killing his wife and children.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then I see his interview and I was like, oh my god.

S. WATTS: Eight years later, we have two kids, we live in Colorado, and he is the best thing that has ever happened to me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: That remains to be seen. Every day more details. Sometimes it`s a trickle. Sometimes it is a dump, but the more we learn about the

investigation into the death of the Watts girls and about Chris Watts` defense, the more we`re able to imagine how this all went down. And some

of the best ideas, theories, and potential concepts, have come from you on Facebook. And we have seen how many of you have had questions. And we`re

responding. We want to go right to your questions right now. They are good. And we`ve got the experts lined up to answer them as well.

Kim Kaufmann wrote in to us and said, many people are behind Chris. Many people are against Shanann. So Rene Sandler, as a defense attorney, the

notion that many people -- I think that is overstating it. Yes, people on Facebook have weighed in and some have felt they back Chris Watts. They

don`t back Shanann, but it is not many and it is certainly not the majority. The majority of people are appalled at what happened and many

don`t believe the story that Chris has told. And they certainly don`t believe what he is said on the porch which now is known to be a lie. So,

Rene, weigh in on this notion that you have to pick a jury. Are you picking a jury and looking for these people? Or are you picking a jury

differently?

SANDLER: Tying it to what we are just talking about pretrial publicity and who you`re looking for, it`s all about whether or not you can find a jury

that is fair and impartial. He has an absolute sixth amendment right to an impartial jury and a fair trial. So balancing his rights against that, we

look for people who can exercise their duty as jurors. You are, yes, looking for that one, yes, because it has to be unanimous, but you`re

analyzing from the void dire, the jury questions, who these people are, where do they come from, can they discharge their duties fairly and

impartially?

BANFIELD: Yes, but you`re right --

SANDLER: So that he can have a fair trial.

BANFIELD: That one.

SANDLER: Yes, you are.

BANFIELD: I`m assuming as a defense attorney you want that same one that is a pen pal with a convicted killer, or gets married to a convicted

killer, or thinks Scott Peterson is the best thing to grace the planet earth. I mean, as a defense attorney, I can only imagine that that is

where you find your exit strategy, from the heap of you know what you`re in.

[18:25:16] Let me get one more here. Megan Marie Cepeda, I hope I pronounced your name right, because you guys have really worked hard to

come up with these ideas and these questions. It seems like it is two different people to do the killing. The wife was buried which shows

remorse. The girls were dumped in oil barrels, which shows the person who did it really didn`t care too much for them.

So, a couple of things here. Yes, she was buried, it was a shallow grave. The girls were dumped in oil tanks, they`re much bigger. I don`t think it

makes a whole lot of difference, they`re submerged in black crude. It is offensive to human nature to think of those blond pigtails, you know,

sinking down beneath the black surface. And look at the loneliness of the site. This was their final resting place. It is in the middle of nowhere.

But if you`re looking to find out who the loving one is in the relationship, there`s a lot on video. Here`s Shanann Watts on her

Facebook, take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

S. WATTS: I was diagnosed with health challenges. And then I met Chris. He knew me at my worst. And he accepted me. And, you know, through your

vows. Like through sickness and everything. He is been there. And he is stuck around because he was the one for me. And he is amazing. And I

can`t tell you how wonderful he is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Susan Constantine, as a body language expert, as someone who, you know, makes a living knowing what it is, what makes people tick, and

how we can find that out just by looking and listening to what they say, weigh in on this whole notion of burying someone in a shallow grave versus

dumping them into oil tanks? Could that not just be an act of desperation, because the sun had already come up? Or is there something more to it?

SUSAN CONSTANTINE, JURY CONSULTANT AND BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: You know, it is hard to say what his mindset was at that moment. But, you know, his

text really says a lot. When you listen to what he says and you dissect it, for instance, he uses the words "those girls." He already saw them as

dead. That shows a sense of separation, a distance between those children.

So, you know, text really tells you a lot about what somebody`s really thinking subconsciously. And whether, you know, one was the children were

buried or put in the oil and then the wife was in a low grave, you know -- it`s hard to say, you know, why he would have chosen one for either one,

but certainly that there was -- it was an evil, vicious act regardless.

BANFIELD: Awful. Regardless, exactly, regardless. It`s evil. Jeanine Manfredi Kerins asked, what are the patches that Chris and his wife and

even the friend that drop her off where wearing. Pat Lalama, this has become a big part of this case, take it from there, 45 seconds.

LALAMA: OK. The company is called Thrive, it is a supplements company. These patches release supplements that are supposed to give you energy,

help with weight loss. And I`m looking right here, I did this in less 45, the Thrive patch contains six active ingredients including force line, I

have no idea what that is, green coffee bean extract, Garcinia Cambodia, (inaudible), white willow bark, and Cosmoperine (ph). I don`t know if I

butchered all those names, but they are involved in this, I don`t know if the stuff works and I don`t know how it was impacting them, but it`s

supposed to be for energy and to help with weight loss.

BANFIELD: And we have called and called and called and called that company to get them to weigh in. And they will not respond. I hope at some point

they do, because it`s in every single video, and it is in this case whether they like it or not. One thing that we have learned from all these

Facebook questions that we`re getting from you people, and we really appreciate this, is that you`re really watching every frame of every single

video. And you`re looking for the clues about what might have actually happened.

Like this one. Chris Watts in court. Yes, typical court shot, right? Not quite. What was he thinking as he took a long, deep breath when the

charges were being read against him in court? Susan Constantine, as a jury consultant, you watch people in court all the time, you know the body

language expertise. You actually have the scientific programs on the other side of the break I want you to weigh in on what you see there. Also keep

sending us your questions. It`s the "Ask Ash" segment on Crime and Justice with Ashleigh Banfield. Just go to our Facebook page it is at Ashleigh

Banfield and you can see it on Twitter were Crime and Justice HLN. Back in a flash.

[18:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[18:35:00] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi!

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, I love it, good job.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: High five.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: High five, baby.

You like my hat?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I love the hat.

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I might just have to comb over your hair like this and say, hey.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CRIME AND JUSTICE SHOW HOST, HLN: We`re still taking your questions as we learn more each day about the investigation into Chris

Watts. Because honestly, we know that he`s accused of killing his pregnant wife and kids. But we do not know why on earth, if he did it, why he would.

And we`re only beginning to find out how he might have, if he did it.

But there`s a lot to fill in. And the answers might just be coming from your Facebook questions. Let me go straight to Terri Lynn. Terri Lynn asked

us this. The video of Chris Watts being read his charges, I noticed when the judge starts to read them, Chris Watts takes a huge breath, causing his

chest to flare. Do you think that was a nervous/guilty gesture? Or possibly a sign of regret?

Let me just play that, so we can look at it in full, and everyone else can get up to speed with what Terri Lynn noticed. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Christopher Lee Watts unlawfully, feloniously, after deliberation and with the intent to cause the death of a person other than

himself, caused the death of Shannan Watts. Count seven alleges tampering with a deceased human body, a class 3 felony. It alleges that on or about -

-

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Not much other movement than that big heaving sigh. Susan Constantine, jury consultant and body language expert, do you see anything

there that`s interesting or curious?

SUSAN CONSTANTINE, JURY CONSULTANT AND BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: Yes. You know, when people take in that really deep breath, it`s preparing to hear

bad news. Something that`s really important. Something that is unexpected or unrealized.

So they`re preparing. It`s a form of bracing. Taking in that deep breath, like, oh, my goodness, and then they expel out to kind of release that

stress. So it`s deep, emotional stress that they`re feeling inside.

BANFIELD: He also swallows hard and then he shakes his head when tampering of evidence charge is read. I`m not sure why he`d be shaking his head.

Police say he confessed to the tampering with evidence, to burying those bodies, and pointed out where each grave was located.

Angel Lee Lockard wrote this. Hi, Ms. Ashleigh. I have a question concerning the Chris Watts case. Have the detectives/police made the

decision to drain the oil tanks to check for any evidence that might have got thrown in with those precious babies?

Karen Smith, you`re a retired detective with the Jacksonville Sheriff`s Office, you`re also a forensic specialist. I thought the same thing. I got

to be honest. I thought, they would have to have every piece of forensic evidence from any spot where someone`s body is disposed of, but oil tanks?

Massive 20-foot-tall oil tanks? Would it require forensic investigators to drain those tanks, or could that be considered a big blind spot in the

case?

KAREN SMITH, RETIRED DETECTIVE, JACKSONVILLE SHERIFF OFFICE: I don`t know that it would be considered a blind spot. But it`s certainly something that

needs to be considered. Are there missing pieces of evidence?

Do we have reason to believe that something was thrown in there along with the children? Are there things that they`re looking for that they haven`t

been able to locate in the field where Shannan was buried?

You know, that`s a big task, draining a 20-foot oil tank, thousands and thousands of gallons. It would take a lot of time, it would take a lot of

effort. I`m not quite sure how you would go about looking at the flow of oil going from one place into another. So, I`m really not sure how they

would undertake that even if they wanted to, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Even if they wanted to. I will say this, that picture tells a big story right there. This is extremely remote. You cannot drive to within

a spot where you can get eye contact with this site and those tanks.

The only reason you`re seeing it right now is because of drone and aerial footage that was taken. So unless someone`s up there 24 hours a day doing

drone and aerial footage, we have no idea if they came in and drained those tanks for forensic investigation purposes.

But honest to god, you just can`t get there to keep an eye on it if you`re looking for that answer. Awesome questions, and we have a lot more

questions coming as well. I want you to continue to send them to us as well. We`ve decided that we`re going to do this on a regular basis.

"Ask Ash" is the segment. It`s "Crime and Justice with Ashleigh Banfield." You can just go to Facebook page at "Ashleigh Banfield," send us your

questions. Really think it through, because I`ll tell you what, you have big competition.

Our questions that have been coming in are really terrific. I think these people watch a lot of "Forensic Files" and they know very well how these

cases often unfold.

Chris Watts is pinning the blame on his now-dead wife. Is he throwing her under the bus? And could that backfire against him in the case?

And next, Shannan`s friend, Nicole. Nicole Atkinson is the unsung hero of this awful tragedy. Her quick action kick started the search for Shannan

and the kids and led to the arrest of Chris pretty damn quick.

[18:40:01] But sadly this has taken a heartbreaking toll on Nicole. We`re going to give you the details of that, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:44:59] BANFIELD: You see it inside and outside the courtroom. Someone held responsible for doing something wrong. And instead of taking the

blame, they pin it on the victim. She shouldn`t have pissed me off, she shouldn`t have worn that skirt. I mean, these are things we`ve heard for

years, right?

And Shannan Watts? Well, Chris says, she shouldn`t have strangled those kids. That`s what Shannan`s dear husband, Chris, allegedly told police that

she did. And that`s why he supposedly killed her. Because what parent wouldn`t fly into a rage seeing their spouse strangle their babies, right?

Unless, of course that scenario never happened. And that`s what prosecutors say. That Chris Watts is just flat-out lying about his wife. And everything

else. Trying to frame her as a child killer. When everyone who knew her only saw her sweet side. The side a jury is likely going to see as well.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love them and I love the fact that I can be there for them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE/UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Happy birthday to you.

Yay!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yay, we`re drawing names for yesterday.

Kisses, say happy birthday.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Birthday, birthday!

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh my god, I`m having way too much fun right here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: There`s just so much to weigh in here. Susan Constantine and Rene Sandler, I have specific questions for both of you. Susan, I`ll begin

with you. Number one, there`s all sorts of talking from the grave that can happen in this courtroom. There is no shortage of Shannan Watts on video in

her family moments that the jury can get to know.

And I`m going to ask about that in a moment. But first, there is also the notion of Chris and the kind of guy he is. And whether he will get up on

the stand and say anything to try to propagate this notion that it was her fault, that the woman who`s dead and was in a shallow grave is really the

one who caused all of this.

Tell me what you learned from taking his actual videotaped interviews on the porch, begging everybody to help him find his family. Tell me what you

learned as a jury consultant and body language expert with the scientific tools you have at your fingertips.

CONSTANTINE: Yes, Ashleigh, that`s a really good point. So I like to start with a kind of pre-profile. So I used a couple of different IBM Watson

tools to determine his personality and also the tone that he was using in his text, in his voice.

And then I also used statement analysis. I went through and learned a lot about time lines and the way he presented it, and understood exactly how

quick his mind was moving at the very beginning, and then how slow it slowed down. So we look at time lines, we call it lines per line.

But his affect when he was talking about his children, that they`re missing, was so off. And he gave us so much information, nothing was really

relevant. And he kind of talked himself around in circles. And I think that if he`s going to take the stand, first of all, he`s not a very good liar.

And he doesn`t know when to shut up. So he keeps rambling on thinking he`s going to convince us.

BANFIELD: I`m so fascinated by something that you told our team and that is that there`s actually program called personality insights by IBM, and

you can run someone`s audio videotape through this program to get some actual, you know -- to get some actual markers on their personalities and

behavior.

And you discovered in Chris Watts, in those on-porch interviews, begging for everyone`s help to find his missing family, fear and sadness, some

regret, and that maybe his actions were sudden, that he`s impatient and demanding and doesn`t have perhaps the capacity to control his actions.

There`s also something called a tone analyzer, which pulls emotions out. I had no idea this stuff existed. What did the tone analyzer tell you? Real

quick.

CONSTANTINE: The tone analyzer is going to tell you what emotion is being presented in those words. Sadness, happiness, contempt, disgust. They`re

emotions. So in our words, whatever is going on subconsciously will be presented in our text, in our words, in our facial expressions. What the

tone analyzer is, it`s pulling out different phrases and words that he`s using and then connecting it with an emotion.

BANFIELD: OK. I`m only jumping in because I want Rene to jump in on this conversation as well. The whole time I`ve been hearing this defense of

throwing the dead pregnant wife under the bus, it`s her fault, it could go two ways. It could spring this guy of a premeditated first-degree murder,

right?

[18:49:57] If he can find someone on the jury to believe that, well then boom, heat of passion, and he gets something much lesser included perhaps,

and he walks out of prison in maybe 10, 20 years. But is there a massive risk in going down that road?

That you angered the jurors so much for throwing a woman like that who can`t speak from the grave on tape and show everyone how loving -- just

look at her posts. She`s got dad, for god`s sake, she`s got the word "dad" framed in the living room on a coffee table. I mean, please, we know from

the pre-mortem activities of this woman what kind of woman she was.

Could he anger the jury so much? That they may have chosen life instead of death, but they`re so mad if they get the choice, they might choose death?

RENE SANDLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Sure, Ashleigh. You make two very, very good points and sort of dovetailing off of Susan. What Susan is saying

potentially could lend itself to negate the premeditation deliberation elements of first-degree murder.

But moving into what we`re talking about here, blaming the victim, particularly in a case with young children as victims, two young children,

a young mother, is a dance that is a very tough one to do in front of a jury by a defense attorney.

It is a balancing act. It is -- you must read the jury. And it goes back to our earlier conversation of who`s on your jury. But yes, it can backfire

miserably, miserably for you.

BANFIELD: Don`t screw up because your life is on the line either way, right?

SANDLER: Absolutely.

BANFIELD: OK, hold that thought for a minute. In the next hour, we`re tackling one of the biggest questions that has arisen out of this tragic

case. If Chris did in fact see his wife Shannan, the mother of his children, choking those two little girls to death, then why did he not call

911? Good question.

[18:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: So we have something new and a little alarming to tell you in the Chris Watts case. That`s going to come in just a moment. But first, I

got some important business that I want to share with you. It`s something we`re very proud of here.

The city of Lagos is known as Nigeria`s Silicon Valley with both Facebook and Google opening offices there just within the last year. But with

technology, the technology sector is still dominated by men. One successful computer programmer has her heart set on helping her country`s most

disadvantaged girls fill that gender gap. She`s this week`s CNN hero. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I went to Makoko for the first time, I was surprised to see the living condition of human beings. Most girls are

trapped in a vicious cycle of poverty. Many of them are not thinking education.

A plan for the future. I believe girls should be given opportunities. What you can`t see, you can`t aspire to. They need to be shown another life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: To see how one 17-year-old girl is using technology to solve a problem in her community, please go to CNNheroes.com. You can always do

some nominating too while you`re there. A good thing to do. I appreciate it.

We`re still tracking every single detail that drops in the investigation into Chris Watts, the Colorado family man accused of killing his pregnant

wife and their two darling little daughters, because why he would have done it is still a massive question mark, and how he might have done it is only

just starting to come together.

But we got a lot of viewers tracking this case right along with us and asking the kind of questions that help to make sense of what truly is just

a confounding mystery. Like Pam Decker.

Pam Decker writes in to us of Chris Watts` wife. I am so curious to know if her friend wasn`t scheduled to meet her at the doctor`s appointment, how

long would it have been before Chris reported her missing? Weeks? Months?

We have some answers to that question and some experts will weigh in, as well as the dozens of others that you`re posting, plus a little bit of news

as well that`s been dropping. That`s coming up next. The second hour of "Crime & Justice" and it`s live, and it starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): She may have been the last person to see Shannan Watts alive.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She went inside, turned around and waved at me, and shut the door.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Now, she has to defend herself.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t care what you think of me. I don`t. You can send me hate messages. You can tell me I`m a horrible person.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): While Shannan`s husband, the love of her life --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He is amazing. And I can`t tell you how wonderful he is.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Is busy working out his own defense.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): If your theory is that the wife killed the kids, you wouldn`t then get rid of the evidence that may try to help to

explain that.

[19:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Just as prosecutors demand evidence from his mouth, his hands, and the tips of his fingers.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): There`s a lot of evidentiary information.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): What could a couple of cheek swabs tell us? What about the prints? The fingers, the palms. Are they matching his

evidence to theirs?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m sickened that a parent, a father, could do that to his children and to his wife.

BANFIELD: Good evening, again, everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield and this is the second hour of "Crime & Justice." Today marks exactly a month since

Shanann Watts and her daughters disappeared since the seemingly normal Monday morning after the pregnant hard-working mom got home late from a

delayed flight after a business trip.

She had big plans to go to the doctor, only Shanann and her little girls did not show up for that appointment. Her friend, who was the one who

called the police when Shanann didn`t pick up her phone, and the friend who ended up kicking off this investigation that put Shanann`s husband behind

bars, well, now that friend is reeling. And she`s being forced to defend herself on Facebook from the strangers who have logged on to the story,

when all she says she wanted to do was share the truth.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NICKOLE ATKINSON, FRIEND OF SHANANN WATTS: I wanted people to know that I am not a hero. I was just a concerned friend. I talked to Shanann on a

daily basis. I knew that it wasn`t normal for her to not text or call me because every time we would go on a trip like this, she would blow up my

phone the next day about us working our business. I was just a concerned friend because I knew something was wrong but I didn`t know what.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: As we know, something was wrong because it turns out Shanann was dead. Soon to be recovered in a shallow grave on her beloved husband`s

work site, close to the two giant oil tanks where their two tiny daughters had been dumped and the people who say Chris Watts is responsible for

killing his entire family are now gathering all the evidence. Evidence that could expose secrets that Chris had been keeping for quite some time,

and evidence that may just still be on his person as we speak.

I want to bring in crime journalist Pat Lalama, who joins me live. Pat, seeing Nickole in that state is absolutely heartbreaking because this young

woman has had her life turned upside down. She`s lost one of her best friends. And now, through the social media channels that we are

increasingly seeing playing a bigger role in a lot of crime stories and specifically this one, they have been ferocious, just ferocious to this

young woman. What do you make of this?

PAT LALAMA, CRIME JOURNALIST: I can say this very simply. Internet trollers are bullies, gutless, spineless bullies who have nothing else to

do with their lives, who clearly have nothing interesting going on, and the only pleasure they get in the world is to put the spotlight on some poor

victim herself.

She`s a victim. This is her best friend, and essentially, Nickole is the only voice, the only advocate for this poor woman right now. So those

bullies can go jump in a lake as far as I`m concerned. All she`s trying to do is tell what she knows because there is public interest in this case.

Why can`t she have an advocate online? It`s ridiculous.

BANFIELD: So one of the -- I think one of the things that the Facebook bullies have been saying is that Nickole had gone online, I think, and

asked people not to talk about the case, and then did an interview. But quite frankly, let`s not forget who this young woman is. She jumped into

action. She saw something. She said something. She went there. She called the police. She didn`t get a good feel when she called Chris and

said something is wrong at the house.

So were it not for Nicole, they might not have had a missing persons report that day or that night, or maybe for another, say, 10, 15, 24 hours; maybe

enough time, if the police have their story right, for Chris Watts to have cleaned up a lot more of the evidence that they were pulling out of that

house. And let me just say what "People" magazine has been saying in this case. And I`m going to quote them directly, that they have police sources.

They have investigative sources, they`ve got law enforcement sources, and many more sources. "Already, police are pouring over evidence and have

uncovered several secrets damaging to Chris`s credibility. Investigative sources tell "People."

They go on to say, "Every day, we learn more about him, says a source close to the investigation. There`s still a long way to go. He had a lot of

secrets."

[19:05:06]

BANFIELD: So that gets me to the next element of what`s happening right now. In the last 24 hours, there has been a snowstorm of paperwork that`s

been filed and posted in the court system through the District Attorney`s Office in Watts County where this case is happening. And I want to get a

couple of important questions answered.

Karen Smith, the retired detective from Jacksonville Sheriff`s Office and forensic specialist, Art Roderick, a former assistant director of US

Marshals and CNN law enforcement analyst and Rene Sandler, you`re with me as well, as a defense attorney, you`re all going to have to weigh in a

little here.

The DA has been forced to respond to a demand from Chris Watts and his attorney and that demand was that things like I just read from "People"

magazine, well, those things are leaks. And we want a full government investigation as to where these leaks are coming from and who`s doing them

because Chris Watts and his team thinks the jury pool is being tainted, and the prosecutors have had their moment to file their response to this and

it`s a smack down.

I mean honestly, the way it reads, it is a smack down. I can`t really say much more than that. But let me say this. They effectively said, you

started it, Chris Watts. You started all of this when you filed a motion from one of your experts saying you wanted people`s fingernails to be

tested and the necks of your daughters to be tested. You let the cat out of the bag when you did that first and you sent all information into the

public stratosphere.

Let me read, if I can, and for my control room, it`s the full screen number three. That this is one of the prosecutor`s responses. "It was a defense

exhibit that alerted the press to the fact that the children were likely killed by strangulation, that Chris Watts was alleging that Shanann Watts

was the parent responsible for their death, and that the bodies of the children had been recovered from an oil tank." Art Roderick, that`s really

important information that could have been kept quiet for quite some time. That`s stuff that mostly just investigators knew, correct?

ART RODERICK, FORMER ASSISTANT DIRECTOR OF US MARSHALS: Yes, that`s a key bit of information, but I also think when you -- just statistically, when

you look at it, you know, if you just look at 2016, there was I believe around 1,600 women that were murdered by men during that year. Of that,

55% of them were killed by a husband, boyfriend, former boyfriend, intimate individual that was close to the woman.

And that 20% of those, so we`re talking almost 200 of those women, were pregnant at the time. So it`s obvious just from the statistic point of

view that law enforcement is going to look at people that are close to the victims. And in this particular case, it happened very quickly here. So

they must have come up with evidence fairly quickly. We have some of the video from the neighbors where he backed his car up at sometime between

5:00 and 5:30 in the morning, and he told law enforcement initially he was loading tools in there.

BANFIELD: He said a lot of things. He said so much stuff. Honestly, it`s a bit of the pot calling the kettle black at this point, to see a guy like

this filing a motion early in the case suggesting something happened to their necks and scrape the fingernail clippings from my dead wife. I mean,

he put a lot of this out there.

And then there`s this from the prosecutors as well about his behavior. His Oscar-worthy or let`s say not so Oscar worthy performance on the front

porch, begging all the TV cameras that came by to help him find his missing wife and kids. The prosecutor said this, "The events leading up to the

filing of this case quickly garnered the attention of the nation. Driven in large part by the now unnerving pleas of help made by the defendant

himself. Local community members and individuals around the country who follow constant news reports of the search for Shanan, Bella, and Celeste

Watts, now that defendant has been charged with murdering his family and disposing of their deceased bodies, national media interest in the case is

likely to persist."

Rene, as a defense attorney, I almost think how could he? How could he reach out to the prosecutors and demand that they question hundreds and

hundreds of people from every different law enforcement agency that touched this case, to investigate them all as to who the leaker is, when in fact

he was the guy doing all of this?

RENE SANDLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I have a different twist on this a little bit. First of all, the prosecutor is responsible for law enforcement.

It`s not just what`s happening in their office. It`s everybody that`s under their control and law enforcement is included in that. Look, how is

defendant supposed to make requests without putting his good faith basis for doing so in a pleading?

For example, requesting DNA be taken in a certain manner or that it be taken at all. He has to form the basis of that request in a pleading. So,

of course, that`s going to get out. But look, the defense needs to have clean hands in terms of their own leaking of information for their own

gain, if you will. But they have to make these requests in a public pleading.

[19:10:08]

BANFIELD: Yes, well, there are hundreds and hundreds of people who touched this case. All the way from the Sheriffs to the Colorado Bureau of

Investigation, to the FBI, to the Frederick Police Department, to the DA`s office and that`s massive in its own right, and it is air tight, I`ll tell

you from personal experience, you can`t get anything out of the DA. I couldn`t even get through to the PIO at the Frederick Police Department.

How do you like that? From the Public Information Officer, and they wouldn`t put me through. So there`s how tight this case is.

And then there are all the other law enforcement agencies surrounding that all had a little hand in this case. The police chief thanked them all for

their help. So there are hundreds, if not thousands of people that they`d have to actually investigate. don`t know who`d pay for that, but it

sounds like a dilatory tactic or maybe a dissuasive tactic.

Let me do something else here. This was fascinating. The prosecutors have been very specific about what they want the defense to give them and the

defense has a couple of days to respond to this, but they wanted buccal swabs, that`s what goes in the mouth and you get the DNA off the side of

the cheek. They want fingerprints and palm prints, and they want photos of Chris Watts` hands, and not only do they want the photos of those hands,

they want photographs taken of the process of fingerprinting those hands and they want those instantaneous Polaroids that spit out of the camera

right away to be attached to the actual report that`s going to be filed.

To me, that`s fascinating. Karen Smith, you know, this is like the kind of forensic chain of custody you are making air tight from the very beginning.

But I`m more fascinated on why they want the pictures of the hands. What is it about Chris`s hands that might tell them something about evidence

they may have?

KAREN SMITH, RETIRED DETECTIVE FROM JACKSONVILLE SHERIFF`S OFFICE: I have a theory. The reason they want photographs of his hands is they want to

measure them. The question in this case is not who strangled Shanann. He`s admitted to that. The question is, did Shanann kill the children or

did Chris Watts kill the children? Well, if they take measurements of his hands and they take ink impressions of his fingers and his palms, and they

are very diligent and they use scales and they take accurate photographs, and they take notes, you`re going to have an accurate portrayal of how big

his hands are. And if they have injuries to those children that were dumped in the oil tanks, you know, even with decomposition, there are

photographic techniques that we can use to elucidate some deep bruising. it`s UV and IR photography, and if they can measure those bruises, I`m sure

that the medical examiner did those measurements, we can do a comparison and find out if those measurements match Chris Watts` hands.

BANFIELD: Can I ask you, Karen, to the lay person out here, I just find this fascinating. It`s like an episode of "Forensic Files" playing out

live right now, however, I`m also suspect that maybe there`s a bruise and maybe it`s a small bruise or maybe it`s a slightly long bruise, but it has

to be a specifically long bruise, longer than Shanann Watts` own fingers that would prove that she couldn`t possibly have been the killer? Is that

what you`re saying?

SMITH: Right. Yes, this isn`t a perfect technique, but it`s hard to go into these details, but when you strangle someone, that needs pressure.

Children`s skin is going to bruise under that pressure, so you may have part of his palm on one side of the neck or his fingers on the other side

of the neck. It`s hard to say, but you know, doing due diligence, the forensic technicians need to go ahead and do these measurements, and if

there`s information from the medical examiner of the bruises and those patterns on those bodies, they need to do those comparisons and regardless

of what the results are, they need to turn that over to the prosecution and defense and let them battle that out in court.

BANFIELD: So that`s an interesting point. They need to turn this stuff over. Art Roderick, you and I have worked on, oh, I don`t know, a thousand

cases together at this point. That`s obviously, hyperbole, but I am going to say that you and I worked on a lot of cases and even the ones we haven`t

worked on together, it`s kind of standard operating procedure to have all that stuff done as the guy is being booked.

Fingerprints, we see it happening live when the guy is being booked. Even sometimes before they`re charged, it`s been litigated. Why on earth would

this be a demand right now? I kind of feel like this whole would have already been done.

RODERICK: Well, there are standard booking procedures, and I can tell you having booked hundreds of prisoners when I was a US Marshal for the Federal

courts, is that you have standard booking procedures. You have mug shots. You have roll prints. Now they`re done on an automated booking station.

The photograph is done, the mug shot is done digitally. They`re all automatically fed into the FBI system. They`ll do a wants and warrants

check to see if the individual -- what kind of criminal history he has. Is he wanted elsewhere?

[19:15:01]

RODERICK: They`ll do a quick medical interview to find out if there`s anything medically wrong with the individual, and they`ll also get a

standard background information. So you have those things that are done, that every police department, every Federal agency does across the country.

Anything beyond that, you have to go and get a court order from the judge.

So you can see he wants high resolution photographs of the hands, the palm prints, and the buccal swab, so all of that has to be done pursuant to a

court order and that`s exactly what occurred here.

BANFIELD: Okay, so then there`s this next question, and that is this. If Chris Watts is suggesting that the -- somewhere in the policing system, the

authorities that fall under the DA, there`s a leak, and he wants -- I`m guessing, hundreds of thousands of dollars and man hours spent to find that

leak and read everybody`s e-mail and look at everybody`s telephone records, et cetera, is this a tactic to dilute the resources of the investigators?

Is this a tactic to just divert attention for a while so they can`t get focused on maybe what it is they`re working on? honestly, Rene, is that

something that is a legitimate defense tactic? Is it allowed? Is it standard game fight?

SANDLER: Look, it`s a unique request, and I think what is lacking here is the defense should have suggested a mechanism for the relief they were

seeking and sort of left it up to the court to make a decision, and it fell flat. But let`s remember something. These defense attorneys are

representing an individual with Constitutional rights that they absolutely have to protect at every step along this process. And they filed what they

believe was a good faith motion and they put facts in there that they believe were based in what they knew and what they were being advised. And

they have to do everything possible to protect their client. And this was a decision they made.

BANFIELD: That makes sense. Okay, Pat Lalama, because of all the crime you and I have covered, let`s go back to OJ. Jury pools can be poisoned.

They can be. It is a grave concern, picking a jury for Jodi Arias was difficult. Picking a jury for Casey Anthony took months. And they

eventually had to go and find them in a different county.

So it`s legitimate that the defense in this case would say, we have got to keep this pristine and pure. And everybody who may hate Chris Watts should

appreciate that because it costs more every time you have a guy who gets a trial verdict turned over because of this stuff.

LALAMA: But you know what, Ashleigh. this is the tightrope that we, as journalists walk all the time and that the court system does, because you

know, the defendant`s right to due process really is more important than a TV show. Let`s face it.

I mean, you know, but we do have our right to know certain things. And something that occurred to me as you were speaking, is that possibly with

all of this pretrial publicity, which is at the core of the argument here, that maybe the defense is saying, maybe, if we throw this out there, any

potential jurors might get this idea that perhaps this department is corrupt or they don`t do things by protocol, or you know ...

And that`s grounds for all kinds of problems for the prosecution. Maybe they`re just trying to put that out there with all these tactics that

something is wrong with the investigation.

BANFIELD: No, I hear you. I mean, listen, I am one of the more pious American citizens because I`m one of the new American citizens and I have

also spent some time in Iraq. And it`s a really lousy place. The law is very different in other places of the world, and so the fact we afford

everyone due process is precious. I`ll leave that there, but the more we find out about Chris Watts and the more we find out about the wife and

daughters that he allegedly killed, the better our questions become, and you are serving us some of the best of them on Facebook, where Deanna York-

Roachell just asked whether investigators can find out if the kids were dead from strangulation before being put into the oil?

Our expert detective is ready to answer that question right after this break and more, too. Stay with us.

[19:20:00]

BANFIELD: Two little girls have reportedly been submerged in an oil well for days. A husband and father who pleaded for the return of his missing

wife and daughters has reportedly confessed to killing them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is absolutely the worst possible outcome.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He stuck around because he was the one for me.

BANFIELD: Chris Watts won`t go to court for another two months. So that`s another two months to whittle down his defense, and that`s another two

months for prosecutors to pile up the case against him, but we don`t need to wait for Chris Watts` next court appearance to start putting some of the

pieces together and some of you on Facebook have already been doing a pretty good damn good job of that.

Your questions are leading the way as we try to figure out what exactly happened to this seemingly perfect family. I want to go to Pam Decker, who

had this great question. I`m so curious to know if Shanann`s friend wasn`t scheduled to meet her at the doctor`s appointment, how long would it have

been before Chris reported her missing. Weeks? Months?

Pat Lalama, this is such a good question, and it goes back to Nickole Atkinson having this breakdown, because she`s the one who may have thwarted

-- and if the police are right and Chris did all this, she is the one that came in so damn fast and put a stop to anything that might have been

another cleanup phase, but what do you think? What might have happened here in terms of the length of time to continue the ruse.

[19:25:21]

LALAMA: Well, she did a great job in doing that and hat`s off to her, and I`m sure it`s very painful, but what`s important to remember is that the

couple was going to have a gender reveal party, I believe, like within that 24-hour period, so people would have said what happened? Are we going to

the party?

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: Oh, I think it was a couple of days, you`re right. It was a couple of days later. I`ll get this the exact date.

LALAMA: Right. And then also remember, she`s got family. I mean, she`s got a brother and a father and a family. Those people, you know, she`s

pregnant. She`s going to the doctor to check heart beat, so they`re all going to be in contact with her, as well as her friends. And so, it would

have been found out.

BANFIELD: And her brother, Frankie -- her brother, Frankie seemed to be on the phone with her almost every day, if not with the children. They seemed

to be best friends. So you`re right, I think had Nickole not been able to jump in so quickly, literally within hours of their dying, somebody would

have been in there pretty darn fast. It wouldn`t have gone on very long.

Deana York-Roachell, I read this before the break, and I`m sorry if I`m not pronouncing it right. Roachell -- can they find out if the kids were dead

from strangulation before being put into the oil? Karen Smith, that`s not something that`s too difficult for an ME, is it?

SMITH: Not at all. You`re dealing with two different causes of death at that point. You`re dealing with either strangulation or drowning. You

know, if it was a drowning and they were alive when they were placed into that crude oil, you`re going to have -- I know -- you`re going to have that

in the lungs, the stomach, the trachea. That will be very evident to the Medical Examiner.

If they were strangled and they were deceased prior to being placed in that oil, there`s not going to be any of that evidence. So at this point, since

we don`t know a cause of death, we are just going to have to wait and see.

BANFIELD: And thank you for mentioning that because we`re now officially four weeks out and we don`t have a cause of death and the last I have

spoken with the official -- public official at the DA`s office, they hadn`t received it from the ME and that`s not a leak. That`s official

information. They had not received that cause of death information from the medical examiner.

So we`re still curious. We usually get cause of death really quick after those autopsies are done. But in this case, mum`s the word. So Vicky

Schwab-Lehner writes this. My question is, if Chris had seen his wife Shanann strangling the girls on the baby monitor, why didn`t he try CPR on

the babies? Or call 911? Why didn`t he try to resuscitate them? I mean, it was supposedly only moments from when he walked downstairs and then had

seen them on the baby monitor. Rene Sandler, this is a very good question. I had that same question myself.

The arrest warrant says I went downstairs for a moment. I came back up and saw one child dead on the baby monitor and the other child then being

actively strangled. That does sound curious, doesn`t it, if you`re a father and you love your children? You would do anything to rescue them,

wouldn`t you? How do you get over that?

SMITH: Looking back, you would say that in the throes of an event, you would be very surprised at what individual`s reactions are. Again, we`re

looking at forensics, too. What`s on the baby monitor, looking at any piece of evidence that we can to analyze his behavior, the child`s, all of

that is evidence that needs to be reviewed cumulatively.

BANFIELD: Yes, but you know something. that`s really tough, I think, just as a person. I`m the average guy that gets picked for a jury, right?

Well, maybe not me because I`m in television, but you never know. And a juror, I feel, would have a really tough time getting past you didn`t try

to rescue or resuscitate or call 911 to get your babies back first? And at no point did he ever say he ever tried. Rene, that is Mount Everest.

SANDLER: It`s a very compelling, very difficult fact for the defense, but I think it`s out of context. And I think you have to look at and micro

analyze everything that came before that and everything that came after and then look at his profile. Who is he? Is he somebody that is impulsive, is

more thoughtful? Why didn`t he react? Was he frozen? What was going on?

I think focusing out of context is a very difficult thing to do, and yes, emotionally, it would be very difficult for a jury to hear that he failed

to act.

BANFIELD: Don`t think you`re going to want parents of young kids on that jury. But as we continue to try to pin down any kind of motive in these

deaths of Shanann and the children, we definitely do have to ask, was this crime committed in the heat of the moment? Or were the issues in the Watts

home deep enough to drive Chris to a long planned premeditated massacre of his entire family?

[19:30:08]

Excellent questions. More of them straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[19:35:14] SHANANN WATTS, MURDER VICTIM: This is going to be a blessed year.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shanann`s body was found on the property of the petroleum company where Chris worked. The two little girls were found in

an oil tank nearby.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: We are still taking your questions about the man accused of killing his family, about his possible defense, and about the evidence

that`s piling up against him. Because Chris watts didn`t seem like a killer at all. No, he was the picture of a family man in all of the family

videos. The dark strings of information are starting to twist together to paint a very different picture indeed of Christopher Watts.

And your Facebook questions are certainly helping us to get closer to pinning down some of the theories about what might have happened. Misty

Sanders writes this question. Sociopaths don`t become sociopaths overnight. Something had been dark inside that man, probably since

childhood. They know how to blend in and act normal. And people lose weight all the time. People also cheat. However, sane folks don`t kill

their entire family.

There`s a much deeper -- there`s much deeper issues here. Karen Smith, I think Misty kind of hits the nail on the head. This is going to be really

hard to tell a jury that the guy in all those videos is the same guy the prosecutors are painting and outlining and sort of showing via the

evidence. But they`ll still see things like this. A moment where these little girls on Facebook videos are playing with their dad and just watch

him in these videos and imagine yourself a juror.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

S. WATTS: But I`m watching my kids have fun like book. Hi, beautiful. They`re sitting there playing with daddy with jewelry because that`s a good

look.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Karen, that`s that hard. I mean, that`s difficult stuff to overcome. Hundreds of hours of normal family videos. What do you do about

that?

KAREN SMITH, RETIRED DETECTIVE, JACKSONVILLE SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Well, Ashleigh, as you and I know working as many cases as we have, Dr. Jekylls

and Mr. Hydes walk among us every single day. They can guide themselves based on their own situation. I mean, look at Ted Bundy. He was charming

until the switch got flipped and he went berserk. So, you know, this guy may be one of those who can charm his way into any situation.

And then when it doesn`t go his way, he just snapped on a dime. We just don`t know.

BANFIELD: And we ultimately got the conviction on Bundy too. And wow, if you could paint a better defendant, boy, you just couldn`t. Then there`s

this question from Joel Wilcox. Is it just me or does anyone else think Chris Watts was so sloppy, possibly because when his wife was dropped off

from the airport, from her girlfriend, from the business trip, the next day Nicole filed a missing persons` report.

So, he didn`t have as much time to discard of evidence as police were at his home so quickly. Art Roderick, I think Joel she makes a really good

point here.

ART RODERICK, FORMER ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, U.S. MARSHALS: Yes.

BANFIELD: He went to work, right? So, he was at work that day after burying his wife and dropping the girls in the oil tanks. And maybe the

thought was he would come back to the home before anybody got suspicious or police became involved. Because there were bed sheets found in the kitchen

trash, Art.

RODERICK: Right. Yes. I think that`s going to be key because he didn`t have enough time to clean up the crime scene if -- because the case was

reported so quickly by her friend. But I also think motive is going to be key here and how they`re going to come up with motive. And I know she had

just came back, Shanann had just come back from a business trip, so they`re going to peel back the layers of this guy`s life.

And when you look at some of the People Magazine reports that he had extramarital affairs both with male and females out there, if any of that

is true, they`re going -- law enforcement is going to go back and look to see, you know, over the past couple months, not only his electronic

contacts, his digital footprint but also interview every person that he came in contact with. And what exactly were the conversations he was

having with them at that point in time.

BANFIELD: There`s one little nugget here as well that I think bears mentioning and that is that Tom, if Chris thought he had more time, if the

police are right and he`s the killer, and if he had more -- if he thought he had more time to clean up the scene at home, trash day was Tuesday.

Trash day was the next day, so everything would have been heading out to the landfill by the next day. It`s just so fascinating. Stand by,

everybody.

Chris Watts told the police that he killed Shanann because he saw her killing his daughters, Bella and C.C. But how risky is it for him to throw

the blame at that victim?

[19:40:01] And could that backfire and land him with -- oh, I don`t know, the death penalty? And later, what would you say if the woman who

kidnapped you for nine months while her husband stood there and raped you every single day was getting out of prison? Elizabeth Smart speaks out

next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:45:14] BANFIELD: You see it inside and outside the courtroom. Someone held responsible for doing something wrong. And instead of taking the

blame, they pin it on the victim. You shouldn`t have pissed me off, you shouldn`t have worn that skirt. I mean, these are things we`ve heard for

years, right? And Shanann Watts, well, Chris says she shouldn`t have strangled those kids. That`s what Shananns dear husband Chris allegedly

told the police that she did.

And that`s why he supposedly killed her. Because what parent wouldn`t fly into a rage seeing their spouse strangle their babies, right? Unless, of

course, that scenario never happened. And that`s what prosecutors say that Chris Watts is just flat out lying about his wife. And everything else.

Trying to frame her as a child killer. When everyone who knew her only saw her sweet side. The side a jury is likely going to see as well.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

S. WATTS: I love them and I love the fact that I can be there for them.

CHRIS WATTS, MURDER SUSPECT: Happy birthday to you!

CELESTE WATTS, MURDER VICTIM: Happy birthday to you!

BELLA WATTS, MURDER VICTIM: Happy birthday to you!

S. WATTS: Yay, we`re drawing names for yesterday. Give him kissing, say happy birthday.

C. WATTS: Birthday, birthday.

S. WATTS: Oh, my gosh. I`m having way too much fun right here. I love you girls.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: There`s just so much to weigh in here. Susan Constantine and Rene Sandler, I have specific questions for both of you. And Susan, I`ll

begin with you. Number one, there`s all sorts of talking from the grave that can happen in this courtroom. There`s no shortage of Shanann Watts on

video in her family moments that the jury can get to know. And I`m going to ask about that in a moment, but first, there`s also the notion of Chris

and the kind of guy he is.

And whether he`ll get up on a stand and say anything to try to propagate this notion that it was her fault, that the woman who`s dead and was in a

shallow grave is really the one who caused all of this. Tell me what you learned from taking his actual videotaped interviews on the porch, begging

everybody to help his -- help him find his family, tell me what you learned as a jury consultant and body language expert with the scientific tools you

have at your fingertips?

SUSAN CONSTANTINE, JURY CONSULTANT & BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: Yes. And Ashleigh, that`s a really good point. So, I like to start with a kind of

pre-profile, so I used a couple different IBM Watson tools to determine his personality and also the tone that he was using in his texts -- in his

voice. And then I also used statement analysis, so I went through and learned a lot about timelines and the way he presented it.

And understood exactly how quick his mind was moving at the very beginning, and then how slow it slowed down, so we look at timelines, we call it lines

per lying. But his affect when he was talking about his children that they`re missing, was so off. And he gave us so much information, nothing

was really relevant. And he kind of talked himself around in circles. And I think that he -- if he`s going to take the stand, first, he`s not a very

good liar.

And he doesn`t know when to shut up. So, he just keeps rambling on, thinking he`s going to convince us.

BANFIELD: I`m so fascinated by something that you told our team. And that is that there is actually a program called personalities insights by IBM.

And you can run someone`s audio videotape through this program to get some actual, you know, to get some actual markers on their personalities and

behavior. And you discovered in Chris Watts, on those on-porch interviews begging for everyone`s help to find his missing family.

Fear and sadness, some regret, and that maybe his actions were sudden. That he`s impatient and demanding and doesn`t have perhaps the capacity to

control his actions. There`s also something called a tone analyzer, which pulls emotions out of -- I had no idea this stuff existed. What did the

tone analyzer tell you, real quick?

CONSTANTINE: Well, the tone -- the tone analyzer is going to tell you what emotion is being presented in that -- those words. Sadness, happiness,

contempt, disgust. They`re emotions. So in our words, whatever is going on subconsciously will be presented in our text and in our words and our

facial expressions. So, what the tone analyzer is pulling out different phrases and words that he`s using, and then connecting it with an emotion.

BANFIELD: OK. So --

CONSTANTINE: Go ahead.

BANFIELD: I`m only jumping in because I want Rene to jump in this conversation as well. The whole time I have been hearing this defense of

throwing the dead pregnant wife under the bus, it`s her fault.

[19:50:05] It could go two ways. It could spring this guy of a premeditated first-degree murder, right? If he can find someone on the

jury to believe that, well then, boom, he`s heat of passion and he gets something much lesser included perhaps and he walks out of prison in maybe

10, 20 years. But is there a massive risk in going down that road that you anger the juror so much for throwing a woman like that who can speak from

the grave on tape.

And show everyone how loving and sweet she is, just look at her pose, she`s got dad for god sake, she`s got the word framed in the living room on a

coffee table. I mean, please, we know from the pre-mortem activities of this woman, what kind of woman she was. Could he anchor the jury so much

that they may choose life instead of death but they`re so mad that they get the choice, they might choose death?

RENE SANDLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Sure. Ashley, you make two very, very good points and sort of dovetailing off of Susan. What Susan is saying

potentially could lend itself to negate the premeditation deliberation elements of first-degree murder. But moving into what we`re talking about

here, blaming the victim particularly in a case with young children as victims, two young children.

A young mother is a dance that is a very tough one to do in front of a jury by a defense attorney.

BANFIELD: OK.

SANDLER: It is a balancing act. It is -- he must read the jury and it goes back to our earlier conversation of who`s on your jury but yes, it can

backfire miserably.

BANFIELD: Right, yes.

SANDLER: Miserably. Miserably.

BANFIELD: Don`t screw up because your life is on the line either way, right?

SANDLER: Absolutely.

BANFIELD: OK. Hold that thought for a minute. In the next hour, we`re tackling one of the biggest questions that`s the reason out of this tragic

case. If Chris did, in fact, see his wife Shanann, the mother of his children choking those two little girls to death, then why did he not call

911? Good question.

[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: I have an update about Elizabeth Smart in just a moment. But first I want to do something that`s important to our network and to CNN as

well. The City of Lagos is known as Nigeria`s Silicon Valley with both Facebook and Google opening offices there over the last year. But with

technology really so dominated but man, one successful computer programmer is determined to help her country`s most disadvantaged girls fill the

gender gap.

So I want you to meet this week`s CNN hero.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

When I went to Makoko for the first time I was surprised to see the living condition of human beings. Most girls are trapped in a vicious cycle of

poverty. Many of them are not thinking education or plan for the future. I believe girls should be given opportunities. What you can`t see, you

can`t aspire to. They need to be shown another life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: To see how one 17-year-old girl is using technology to solve a problem in her community, go to cnnheroes.com.

Elizabeth Smart is speaking out tonight against the upcoming parole of the one of the people who kidnapped her, Wanda Barzee. The woman who assisted

her husband Brian David Mitchell in that endless crime back in 2002.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELIZABETH SMART, KIDNAP VICTIM: It was a big shock. I mean, only months ago I was on my way to a parole hearing when I was told she would never be

let out until 2024. I would urge the powers that be and anyone who works under them to really, strongly reconsider this situation, to look at all

the facts, look at her mental status and see if they really and honestly truly feel like she is no longer a threat and that she ready to be

released.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: The Utah Board of Pardons announced on Tuesday that Wanda Barzee will be released from prison next week. She had pleaded guilty in `09 and

she`s been behind bars for 15 years. Elizabeth Smart was 14 when Brian David Mitchell, her husband, kidnapped her at knifepoint from her Salt Lake

City bedroom. Barzee and Mitchell together held that girl hostage for over nine months hiding her in the woods near her home.

And then moving frequently around the country to avoid capture. Cannot imagine what it`s like to be her.

[20:01:00] See back here Monday night at 6:00 Eastern. Thank so much everyone you for watching. "FORENSIC FILES" begins right now.

END